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Quote:
Half-way through the 7th century, under the caliphate of Osman, the Arabs invaded Albanian territory and the eastern Caucasus and took possession of Paythakaran (Baylaqan), Partaw (Bardaa), Shakashen, Kabala (Kapaghak), Shervan, Shaporan (Shaberan), and Chor (Darband); Aran was to be reunited with Armenia under a single governor. Grandmaster 08:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Also please check out the second reference from Iranica. I suggest to merge this article with Beylagan. Grandmaster 08:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
look at http://www.answers.com/topic/paytakaran Don't confuse vandalism with academic dispute which some users can't conduct. Regarding Paytakaran - I quote answers.com : "Paytakaran (Caspiane), was the Easternmost province (nahang) of the Armenian Kingdom[1] located in the territory of modern day Azerbaijan roughly corresponding to the rayons of Lankaran and Salyan."-- Dacy69 21:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe it is time to complain about your language. Answers.com says that Paytakaran is IN AZERBAIJAN. Further - yes, it says it roughly correspondents to Lankaran and Saylan district. But you should know a liitle about Azerbaijani history and geography. Beylagan is an administrative unit in Azerbaijan which in the Soviet time was Jdanov - (name of a Soviet communist leader). And people used to call all this region Lenkoran or Salyan. Jdanov has never been its historical name as we understand a term 'historical'. The point is Baylagan and Paytarakan is the same region. Above you can find reference to the sources. Answers.com information just confirm that this region in Azerbaijan. Let's ask third-party opinion.-- Dacy69 21:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Map of Baylagan
, map of Lankaran
and map of
. Very close to eachother eh?--
Eupator
21:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In Russian version of Wikipedia (written by Armenian users actually) says that it is the same region: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD How you call them? In many Armenian websites you can find claim to that region of Azerbaijan. They say that it is Armenian Paytakaran. What is you show now - maps - it is current layout of Azerbaijani regions - quite close to each other, but not historical.-- Dacy69 22:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Paytakaran the province was south of Arax. This is according to the historical map of 7th c. "Geography." The Iranica editor is either stupid, or talking about a different city called Paytakaran.-- TigranTheGreat 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
O! I don't know Russian. Grandmaster identified sources which says Beylagan and Paytakaran is the same. I am saying the same. This is what I argue. Russian Wikipedia refer to Сен-Мартен, who thought the same about the city. Now about location of the city (not region as a whole) - Сен-Мартен located it at the juncture of Kura and Araks. Look at the map - it is near Sabirabad. It is not Salyan and, definitley, not Lenkaran wрich is far. Yes, currently it is also out of administrative border of Beylagan. This is about the city according Sen-Marten. We are talking about historic region. Paytarakan had connection to Araks river where Beylagan is now. I don't see any sense to dispute further with you and listen to your insults. I am not afraid of third party opinion, mediation, etc. For some reason you don't sign up for mediation (on Urartu) and continue to argue here while insulting your opponent. And for TigranTheGreat -yes, everybody except your sources is "stupid".-- Dacy69 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Baylaqan/Paytakaran was a province of Albania, along with Utik and Artsakh, which Armenia conquered during the period of its expansion. Those regions had almost no Armenian population, and Albania regained them in the 4th century A.D. The capital of Beylegan was the city of the same name, which existed also in Islamic times and was a large and prosperous city. Now I see that the modern rayon of Beylagan may have different borders than the Albanian province, but in that case we need to move this page to Baylaqan (province) and provide the information on the province and the city in both pre-Islamic and Islamic times. The historian Bosworth, whom Tigran called stupid, is actually one of the leading specialists on Persian history in the world, and he says about the city:
BAYLAQAN, Armenian form Paytakaran (cf. Marquart, Osteuropäische und ostasiatische Streifzüge, Leipzig, 1903, p. 457), a town of the medieval Islamic region of Arran (q.v.), the classical Caucasian Albania, lying in the triangle between the Kor and Aras (Araxes) rivers, in what is today the Mil steppe in Soviet Azerbaijan. In Islamic times, it lay on the highway connecting Ardabil and Bajarvan with Bardaa (qq.v); today, only ruins remain of Baylaqan, to the south-east of Shusha.
As you can see, it is neither in Salyan nor Lenkoran, so the province seems to cover much larger area. Paytakaran was not a historical Armenian land, as some of you claim. According to the book called The Armenian People From Ancient To Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century, edited by Richard G. Hovannisian:
Paytakaran, a completely alien land, left the Armenian orbit in 387, as did Korjaik, originally the kingdom of Gordyene, a foreign state that had belonged to Armenia for only about 250 years and whose territory was completely Kurdish in population even before the deportations of 1915.
P 16, Robert. H. Hewsen. Historical Geography
It also says on p 92:
A belt of Armenian peripheral lands fell away to its neighbors: Gugark in the north to Iberia, Utik and Arcax (Artsakh) in the northeast to Caucasian Albania, Paytakaran and Parskahayk in the east to Atrpatakan (modern Azerbaijan), and Korcek and Aljnik in the south to Mesopotamia, thus leaving a considerably reduced territory.
The Armenian People From Ancient To Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century (Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times). ISBN 0312101694
Grandmaster 06:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator, we have a lengthy discussion on Urartu and I left a message for you and TigrantheGreat on your discussion pages to put signature for mediation. And now you say that you don't know anything. If there is no agreement on that I have to refer to other further procedure for resolving the dispute on Urartu.-- Dacy69 14:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I see - you just playing around. You know perfectly what is the subject of the dispute - we have discussed that. The page Urartu is blocked, and I invited you and TigrantheGreat sign mediation agreement. You don't want - perfect. I am refering to another procedure.-- Dacy69 19:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator and TigrantheGreat - you are doing blind reverts. When I put - see discusion: we have sources, including Armenian own. This is the first point. Second Eupator, I am quite civil. Look at your comments on me and my on you.-- Dacy69 23:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and the sources (including Armenian) say nothing about Paytakaran being in Albania.-- TigranTheGreat 19:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, could someone please give me a neutral summary of the dispute here? Thanks, Khoi khoi 06:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Paytakaran was the Armenian spelling of the name of Beylegan/Baylakan, the province and the city of Caucasian Albania, which existed also in Islamic times and the modern town of Beylegan is located not faraway from the ruins of the ancient city. I suggest renaming the article to Beylegan, as it was known under that name for much longer period of time. Grandmaster 06:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. None of the sources above say that the town of Baylakan was in the province of Paytakaran. In fact, as GM's source Iranica states, Baylakan was built by persian king Kavat (early 6th c. AD). Paytakaran as a province ceased to exist in 428 AD. There is no way Paytakaran could be in Baylaqan.-- TigranTheGreat 00:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The Armenian Foreign Ministry made that map. It was an alien land for 700 years under Armenia and where everyone spoke Armenian according to Strabo? You're funny Gm. :) Here's more maps with Paytakaran shown on the Caspian shore far from the modern rayon of Baylagan: [2], [3]...and you want to merge this and Baylagan?-- Eupator 15:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The juncture of Kura-Arax is different from the triangle of Kura-Arax, so these are two different locations, hence B is not P. P was south of Arax, B was north of Arax. As for Sanatruk, as the quote above shows, he was placed by Arm. king Trdat as the governor of the Armenian province of P. He rebelled against Armenia, and was defeated by Trdat. So, P. was clearly a province of Armenia. The Barbarians didn't live in P., they just killed the Armenian bishop. Strabo states that both Armenia and Albania have provinces named Caspiene. And Strabo states that in Caspiene people speak Armenian:
Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great,9 but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told. -- TigranTheGreat 09:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't matter who they cut it from, as long as it's not Albania. Hence it wasn't originally Albanian. By the way, Strabo clearly states that these lands were reconquests--4 centuries earlier Armenia had ruled a large portion of Asia. (Strabo, Geography, 11.13.5: "In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians" So these areas were part of Armenia, then they got to Media, and then Armenia got it back. And yes, everyone spoke Armenian as a result of the conquests--the kings conquered the Armenian speaking areas, and now the whole land speaks Armenian.
B can't be P because P was a city in 300's, and B was built in 500's (according to Iranica). So clearly it was a different Paytakaran. Moses of Chrorene and Movses D. clearly state that it was part of Armenia, which rebelled against Armenia. The ethnicity of its governor doesn't matter--he was the employee of the Armenia king, ruling over an Armenian province.-- TigranTheGreat 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, you asked for summary of dispute. It is quite lengthy now. I don't see any sense to continue this dispute. The dispute can be resolved through third party involvement only. I had participated in the discussion before, and replies of opponents were replete of insults.-- Dacy69 22:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, about the events surrounding Sanatruk and Paytakaran in 300's. Armenian chronicles of the time are clear that Paytakaran was part of Armenia. Here is Movses Khorenatsi (III.3):
Блаженный Трдат проявлял великую твердость в деле поддержания веры и нравов, особенно в отношении тех, кто проживал в отдаленных частях его государства. Поэтому приходят должностные лица северо-восточных краев, управители дальнего города по названию Пайтакаран
Trdat was firm in upholding the faith, especially among those who lived in the farthest parts of his state. Therefore official persons come to him from the north-easterns areas, rulers of the far-away city of Paytakaran.
Pavstos Buzand, III.7 (about Sanatruk/Sanesan's rebellion against Armenia):
О разбойничьем набеге царя мазкутов на землю, подвластную армянскому царю, о происшедшей большой войне и о том, как он погиб вместе со своим войском.
В то время маскутский царь Санесан, сильно разгневавшись, проникся враждой к сородичу своему, армянскому царю Хосрову, и собрал он все войска, — гуннов, похов, таваспаров, хечматаков, ижмахов, гатов и глуаров, гугаров, шичбов и чилбов, и баласичев и егерсванов, и несметное множество других разношерстных кочевых племен[10], все множество войск, которым он повелевал. Он перешел свою границу, большую реку Куру и наводнил армянскую страну.
About attacks of the Mazkut king on the lands under the dominion of the Armenian king, and about how he died with his troops.
Mazkut king Sanesan, gathered all the troops--huns etc etc (the barbarians), and crossed the border, the great river Kura, and flooded the Armenian country.
Draskhanakertsi too talks how Sanatruk "rebelled" against Armenian king in the Armenian city of Paytakaran. So, clearly it was part of Armenia. And keep in mind this was 200 years before BAylakan was founded by Kavat I (According to Iranica). So, if Baylaqan had another name Paytakaran, it must have been a second city Paytakaran, unrelated to the province.-- TigranTheGreat 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes it does. If they were built in different times, then they are different. And your quote clearly states that P was in Armenia. Parcies have nothing to do with Albanians. And Strabo doesn't say P. was in Albania. Only the Albanian Caspiene (and I stated it in the article as well).-- TigranTheGreat 09:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Albanian Caspiene is Paytakaran. Strabo says both countries had Caspiene. IT couldn't be a joint control, so clearly there were two separate provinces. Parises are the persians. In the Armenian original, Buzand says "parsits yerkir,"--Country of persians. in the 5th century (i.e. Buzand's time), Paytakaran had been cut off and given to the persian mainland (and not Albania), hence he calls the area Persians' country. Yet all 3 sources--MD, MC, and PB, state that it was part of Armenia before 400's. And neither says population was non-Armenian. Strabo says they were Armenian.-- TigranTheGreat 02:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
If it were, it would have been speciafically distinguished as it is usually indicated in historic documents: one province or region with two ethnic groups, languages or with different state affiliations: French and British Guiana or Italian and German Tyrol or like we distinguish nowadays belonging of Kurdistan to different states - Turkish or Iranian Kurdistan. We have evidence which say that this land is alien to Armenia, people speak the same language (not two). Though it could belong to two different state in different time period. And there is the historic document which tells about rebellions against the Armenian king, that it is the sign that Armenia was in temporary possession of that region-- Dacy69 02:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Strabo says that Armenia swallowed three Median provinces: Caspiane, Faunitis and Basoropeda. So where does Albania fit into this? By the time Armenia loses Paytakaran/Caspiane there is no such thing as Albania! See Archaeology at the North-East Anatolian Frontier By A. G. Sagona, page 53. The tribes that inhabited Paytakaran were median not Albanian. That explains how they could have been easily Armenianized, Armenianizing Albanians would not have been so easy because their language was so alien. But Median and Armenian were very close. Sagona says that all those three provinces were inhabited by Median tribes not Albanian, particularly by Phasians. Now Strabo also says:"To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea;" (Book 11.4.5) . So this can only mean that there were two Caspiane and Tigran said all along. Otherwise how could there be a Median Caspiane taken by Armenians and an Albanian Caspiane? All sources also testify that Paytakaran stretched to the Caspian Sea and induded the Apcheron Strait.-- Eupator 15:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
How someone can imply that there were two Caspians from all sources above? It has never been mentioned in historic documents. It is only Eupator's and Tigran's asumption. That's it.-- Dacy69 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
MK talks about the Armenian Albania--south of Kura. Now, about Strabo's present tense--he states "Armenians took (i.e. regained) Caspiene, etc etc, and now they all speak Armenian." He does speak in present tense about the lands conquered by Artashes--they now all speak Armenian. Hence, they are still part of the same kingdom (of Armenia).
We already state in the article that Strabo says Albania had Caspiene. We just can't say it was Paytakaran, as it would be NOR.-- TigranTheGreat 23:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
After Utik was taken by Persians, and made into the Albanian marzpanate, Armenians called the area Aluanits Yerkir or Hayots Aluank. It was an Armenian populated and ruled area, and was separate from the Albania north of Kura. "now" means that they spoke Armenian before, but were separated from Armenia, but now they all speak Armenian. "took" means "regained" because they used to belong to Armenia before (in the 6th c BC onward), as stated by Strabo. And Paytakaran was the Armenian portion of Caspiene.
By the way, the idea that somehow Strabo doesn't include Paytakaran as part of Armenia is rejected by both the Greek sources and modern ones. Strabo, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy all stated that the boundary was river Kura. Even Iranica confirms this: "The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo" http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v1f8/v1f8a022.html. Paytakaran was south of Kura, so clearly part of Armenia. Now, whoever said that Caspiene went to Albania, it must have been the Albanian Caspiene. Tigranes conquered Albania, and then the whole Albania (including Caspiene) broke away. -- TigranTheGreat 04:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Plus, since in the Armenian Caspiene everyone spoke Armenian, while in the Albanian Caspiene the Caspian tribes lived, (not to mention that in the rest of Albania people spoke in 26 different languages), these are two different lands--one north of Kura, the other south.-- TigranTheGreat 04:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and for the 3rd time, MK was talking about the Armenian province of Albania, and only a tiny portion of Paytakaran (i.e. the city of Paytakaran), according to him, belonged to this province (actually, even here he was wrong, but it's a different matter).
According to strabo, Armenia grew twice in size in 190 BC. There is no way a small country could assimilate a foreign population twice its size in a mere century (till Strabo's time). So, your interpretation doesn't hold.
Strabo says Armenia ruled whole of Asia in 6th c BC. Paytakaran was part of Asia. So, it belonged to Armenia. Your map in the 3rd century shows what Armenia looked like after its lands were taken by other nations. luckily, Armenia regained those lands from these nations.-- TigranTheGreat 06:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is more on difference between the Armenian and caucasian Albanias. It's from GM's source:
http://www.armenianhouse.org/draskhanakertsi/history-ru/chapter11_20.html
I.e. Aluank--contrary to the Greco-roman Albania, starating with the marzpanate period (5th c), Armenian sources call the Kura-arax mesopotamia Aluank. After division of Armenia, the area and Cauc. Albania were joined to create a marzpanate called Albania. However, Armenia later gained greater independence (in later 5th c.), and at the same time in Artsakh and Utik the local Armenian noble house of Aranshahiks ruled.
Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia states the same. So does Khorenatsi--the Kura-Arax area was the inheritted land of Armenian Sisakans (called Aluanits plain), while north of Kura is where "barbarians" lived.
Here is Russian historian shnirelman stating the same (in his critique of Azerbaijani falsifications):
В то же время полностью игнорировался тот факт, что многое в этом тексте было заимствовано из армянских источников и что «страна Агванк» Мовсеса Каганкатваци была вовсе не идентична изначальной Кавказской Албании. Короче говоря, над рукописью Мамедовой, очевидно, основательно поработал ее редактор З.М. Буниятов.
www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/albanskymif.html
i.e. Azeri historians ignored the fact that MK'S work was based on earlier Armenian chronicles, and that "country Aluank" of MK was not the same as the original Caucasian Albania.-- TigranTheGreat 06:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC) -- TigranTheGreat 06:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
In Strabo's time, Paytakaran was part of Armenia. This negates any claim that it was part of Albania. Strabo and the Greeks never said that Caspiene south of Kura was ever in any way whatsoever connected with Albania. Saying so is pure fiction and original research.
Anyone who speaks Armenian is Armenian. Buzand never says parcies lived in P. Parcies simply had en empire, and now they are building nukes. B is not P since they were built in different times. Strabo never says Caspiene was lost to Albania, it's your original research. Armenian Aghvank is a fact, and it's confirmed by every single Armenian historian of Soviet and modern times, as well as Russian historians, and Armenian chronicles of medieval times. Sure it was an alien land that was Armenian populated by Armenians. Its climate, landscape, existence of a sea were totally alien to the rest of the Armenian upland, but it was still an Armenian land. -- TigranTheGreat 03:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigran, so many assumptions without substantial proof or reference to historic sources (putting aside the work of modern Armenian historians which can be biased as anyone's, particulularly now, in time of nationalism, and particularly in the Caucasus).
And your reflection about alien land and geography: "Sure it was an alien land that was Armenian populated by Armenians. Its climate, landscape, existence of a sea were totally alien to the rest of the Armenian upland, but it was still an Armenian land" - how we can make such conclusion? Then the Caucasus is Russian land. Why not? It is just their upland which they possessed for 200 years-- Dacy69 21:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator, I am not Adil or whoever you think. I don't need to use someone's identity. I have my own. Please talk on substance. And on identity - I have my personal page where my profile is - enough not to be confused with someone else, I believe.-- Dacy69 06:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
About nationalism of medieval historians. Some of them were not so accurate and impartial. But, in general, I agree, there was no nationalism at that time, like it is now unfortunately. Gandzakatsi wrote about a Turkic ruler Melik-shah, who freed Armenian priesthood from taxes: "He (Melikshah) tamed the Universe not with wars and violence but with love and peace" - "покорил Вселенную не столько войной и насилием, сколько любовью и миром" (Киракос Гандзакаци. История Армении. М., 1976. С. 89). But it is different subject, let's return to Paytakaran.-- Dacy69 07:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Fully agree. I have not call ancient historians nationalists. It is about modern ones.-- Dacy69 19:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Uh-oh, did I unprotect this too soon? — Wknight94 ( talk) 18:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I am apparently part of the dispute, I wasn't even aware of, but since I have been dragged in it without my approuval, it will be nice for the users to tell me around what the dispute revolve so that I can be aware of the dispute I am allegedly part of.
My revert, since Grandmaster is creating false rumors on the reason of my revert. I did not revert to delete sourced materials, I did even not read what was added to be honest. I have reverted because the Azerbaijani name was in the lead, apparently just because the Armenian name was there.
Lets explain my motives for the revert.
There has been an Armenian province of Paytakaran, a historic place, written in Armenian script and transliteration. The classical name for a historic Armenian province is relevant. Unless there is now a Paytakaran in Azerbaijan on the same locality a sort of continuity, there is no relevance is including that name. It can not be considered as a local place, it is a historic province, and city, its Archaic, classical Armenian name has a historic relevance. What is the relevance of an Azeris word, which is modern and written by a modern alphabet? It doesn't have more relevance than lets say its Japanese transliteration. This was the reason of my revert, and I admit things were deleted in the process, but again, I had no idea of the content of the material deleted. Fad (ix) 04:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have yet to see a quote from Minorski supporting your views. And also, as I said many times before, Paytakaran was both city and province, and the city existed in Islamic era, while the province did not. I hope you are not going to deny that the center of the province called Paytakaran was the city called Paytakaran? Also, you removed the statement that Paytakaran was the province of Albania, do you deny that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran? Tigran and Eupator included in the article the statement that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran, and I agreed with it, because it is supported by many sources, including neutral and Armenian ones. Parishan quoted a source stating that Caspiane was the same as Paytakaran:
World History Encyclopædia, v. 2. Moscow: Mysl Publ., 1956: Caspiene, with its capital in Paytakaran, was also under the Armenian dominance...
Also, I refer you to Pawstos Buzand:
О каспах.
Потом спарапет Мушег жестоко отомстил стране парсиев [7] и городу Пайтакарану, ибо жители этой страны отложились от армянского царя и изменили ему. Спарапет-полководец Мушег, прибыв туда, многих из них казнил, отрубив головы, многих взял в плен, а остальных обложил данью, взял у них заложников и там оставил правительственных чиновников.
[7] Из этого места мы узнаем, что в стране Каспк (Каспиана античных авторов) и в этот период жило упоминаемое Страбоном племя парсиев или паррасиев (С. Т. Еремян).
About Caspis
Then sparapet Musheg took cruel revenge on the country of parcies and the city of Paytakaran, because the people of that country broke away from the Armenian king and betrayed him.
The footnote:
From this place we learn that the country of Kaspk (Caspiane of antique authors) was populated at that time by the tribe of Parsies or parracies, mentioned by Starbo. [13]
And Strabo says that Caspiane belonged to Albania. So it was an Albanian province, and further denial is pointless. Grandmaster 12:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Minorski is not the only authoritative source. Bosworth is one of the leading experts on the history of Iran, and his opinion cannot be disregarded. As for the rest, Caspiane = Paytakaran, check sources that I quoted. You only see what you want to see, completely ignoring the sources that don’t suite your position. Check Buzand, the reference is available here. And Albania was a country, check the quotes:
Strabo:
To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared. [14]
Article from Iranica about the Caspies. It says, inter alia:
Herodotus, Strabo, and other classical authors repeatedly mention the Caspians but do not seem to know much about them; they are grouped with other inhabitants of the southern shore of the Caspian Sea, like the Amardi, Anariacae, Cadusii (q.v.), Albani, and Vitii (Eratosthenes apud Strabo, 11.8.8), and their land (Kaspiane) is said to be part of Albania (Theophanes Mytilenaeus apud Strabo, 11.4.5). Whether or not they belonged to the Median empire is not clear. According to Herodotus (3.92.2), they, together with the Pausicae, Pantimathi, and Daritae, were included in the eleventh nomos of the Achaemenid empire under Darius I. This region later was attached to Media Atropatene and Albania in turn. [15]
Another quote:
Pompey then rearranged the political geography of the east. The exact details of the changes and their chronology are not always clear. Some were changed after Pompey and the young Tigranes fell out and after Parthian intervention. But the upshot was that by 59 BC Syria and Phoenicia had passed to Rome, Sophene to Cappadocia, and Adiabene to Parthia. Lesser Armenia went, probably, to Brogitarus, son-in-law of Deiotarus king of Galatia, and Caspiane to the Albanians.
A. E. Redgate. The Armenians (Peoples of Europe) ISBN-10: 0631220372
Moses Kalankatuatsi:
А после смерти Трдата некий Санатрук воцарился в Алуанке в городе Пайтакаране и восстал против армян. [16]
After the death of Trdat, some Sanatruk became a king in Albania (Aluank) in the city of Paytakaran and revolted against Armenians.
Moses Khorenatsi:
Также Страна касбов235 по этому поводу отложилась от нашего царя. Поэтому Арташес посылает на них Смбата со всей армянской ратью и сам сопровождает их в течение семи дней. Смбат, придя туда, усмиряет всех, а Страну касбов разоряет и уводит в Армению пленных больше, чем из Артаза, и с ними их царя Зардманоса.
235 Страна касбов — область низовьев Куры и Аракса (впадавших в древности в Каспийское море порознь), примыкающая к Каспийскому морю; страна Каспиана, упоминаемая Страбоном в связи с завоеваниями армянского царя Арташеса I.
The Country of kasbs also broke away from our king for the same reason. Therefore Artashes sent against them Smbat with the whole Armenian army and personally accompanied them for seven days. Upon arrival there Smbat pacified everyone, plundered the Country of kasbs and took away to Armenia more prisoners than were taken from Artaz, and their king Zardmanos was among them.
Footnote: The country of kasbs – the area of the lower courses of Kura and Araks (which in ancient times flowed into the Caspian sea separately), adjacent to the Caspian sea; the country of Caspiane, mentioned by Strabo in connection with the conquests of the Armenian king Artashes I. [17]
Pawstos Buzand:
О каспах.
Потом спарапет Мушег жестоко отомстил стране парсиев [7] и городу Пайтакарану, ибо жители этой страны отложились от армянского царя и изменили ему. Спарапет-полководец Мушег, прибыв туда, многих из них казнил, отрубив головы, многих взял в плен, а остальных обложил данью, взял у них заложников и там оставил правительственных чиновников.
[7] Из этого места мы узнаем, что в стране Каспк (Каспиана античных авторов) и в этот период жило упоминаемое Страбоном племя парсиев или паррасиев (С. Т. Еремян).
About Caspis
Then sparapet Musheg took cruel revenge on the country of parcies and the city of Paytakaran, because the people of that country broke away from the Armenian king and betrayed him.
The footnote:
From this place we learn that the country of Kaspk (Caspiane of antique authors) was populated at that time by the tribe of Parsies or Parracies, mentioned by Starbo. [18]
Once again I suggest we try mediation, maybe a third party will help us reach a consensus. I don’t understand why are you so reluctant to do so, if you are so sure that you are right. Grandmaster 09:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
If you think that I will embarrass myself, why do you refuse mediation? And also, Buzand talk about the country of parcies and city of Paytakaran, and the chapter is called “about kasps”, what in your opinion he refers to? The footnote explains that pretty clear, and it is an Armenian source. Paytakaran was also the province of Albania, it is obvious. As for your statement that “Paytakaran was under Tigran's domain after he was defeated by Pompey”, please cite your sources. I cited mine. And mind civility too. Grandmaster 11:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Kalankatuatsi was translated by an Armenian scholar, you may doubt his competence all you want, but he has no reason to distort the source, and Kalankatuatsi says: After the death of Trdat, some Sanatruk became a king in Aluank in the city of Paytakaran and revolted against Armenians. Grandmaster 11:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, even pro-Armenian sources like Hewsen accept that Paytakaran was a “completely alien land” to Armenia, check the above quote. Grandmaster 11:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
You can deny as much as you want, but it is obvious to everyone that you are simply trying to suppress the information that is inconvenient to you. And your refusal to get neutral people involved in this dispute speaks for itself. Another source for you:
Кроме этого, в зависимости от Армении находилась и Каспиана, центр которой был в Пайтакаране и правители которой считали себя Аршакидами. На протяжении IV в. все эти области отпали от Армении, а после смерти Тиридата III некто Санатрук присвоил себе корону, овладел Пайтакараном и заявил о захвате всей Армении. Правители Пайтакарана опирались на помощь Сасанидов и позднее помогали Шапуру II в войнах с Арменией. В 60-х годах IV в. от Армении отложились и другие албанские земли, которые также попали под влияние персов.
Всемирная история. Энциклопедия. Том 2. [19]
Caspiane, which had its center in Paytakaran and the rulers of which considered themselves Arsacids, was also under the Armenian dominion. During the IVth century all these regions broke away from Armenia, and after the death of Tiridat III some Sanatruk declared himself a king, took control of Paytakaran and announced the conquest of the whole Armenia. The rulers of Paytakaran relied on the help of Sasanians and later assisted Shapur II during the wars with Armenia.
The World Encyclopedia, Volume II.
Grandmaster 06:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Compare it with the country of Kaspk and the city of Paytakaran, mentioned by Buzand. Also, according to Hewsen, Paytakaran was an alien land to Armenia, which orbit it left for good in 387, as is obvious from the quote. What else it could be alien to? The planet Earth? Grandmaster 06:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
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Quote:
Half-way through the 7th century, under the caliphate of Osman, the Arabs invaded Albanian territory and the eastern Caucasus and took possession of Paythakaran (Baylaqan), Partaw (Bardaa), Shakashen, Kabala (Kapaghak), Shervan, Shaporan (Shaberan), and Chor (Darband); Aran was to be reunited with Armenia under a single governor. Grandmaster 08:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Also please check out the second reference from Iranica. I suggest to merge this article with Beylagan. Grandmaster 08:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
look at http://www.answers.com/topic/paytakaran Don't confuse vandalism with academic dispute which some users can't conduct. Regarding Paytakaran - I quote answers.com : "Paytakaran (Caspiane), was the Easternmost province (nahang) of the Armenian Kingdom[1] located in the territory of modern day Azerbaijan roughly corresponding to the rayons of Lankaran and Salyan."-- Dacy69 21:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe it is time to complain about your language. Answers.com says that Paytakaran is IN AZERBAIJAN. Further - yes, it says it roughly correspondents to Lankaran and Saylan district. But you should know a liitle about Azerbaijani history and geography. Beylagan is an administrative unit in Azerbaijan which in the Soviet time was Jdanov - (name of a Soviet communist leader). And people used to call all this region Lenkoran or Salyan. Jdanov has never been its historical name as we understand a term 'historical'. The point is Baylagan and Paytarakan is the same region. Above you can find reference to the sources. Answers.com information just confirm that this region in Azerbaijan. Let's ask third-party opinion.-- Dacy69 21:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Map of Baylagan
, map of Lankaran
and map of
. Very close to eachother eh?--
Eupator
21:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
In Russian version of Wikipedia (written by Armenian users actually) says that it is the same region: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD How you call them? In many Armenian websites you can find claim to that region of Azerbaijan. They say that it is Armenian Paytakaran. What is you show now - maps - it is current layout of Azerbaijani regions - quite close to each other, but not historical.-- Dacy69 22:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Paytakaran the province was south of Arax. This is according to the historical map of 7th c. "Geography." The Iranica editor is either stupid, or talking about a different city called Paytakaran.-- TigranTheGreat 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
O! I don't know Russian. Grandmaster identified sources which says Beylagan and Paytakaran is the same. I am saying the same. This is what I argue. Russian Wikipedia refer to Сен-Мартен, who thought the same about the city. Now about location of the city (not region as a whole) - Сен-Мартен located it at the juncture of Kura and Araks. Look at the map - it is near Sabirabad. It is not Salyan and, definitley, not Lenkaran wрich is far. Yes, currently it is also out of administrative border of Beylagan. This is about the city according Sen-Marten. We are talking about historic region. Paytarakan had connection to Araks river where Beylagan is now. I don't see any sense to dispute further with you and listen to your insults. I am not afraid of third party opinion, mediation, etc. For some reason you don't sign up for mediation (on Urartu) and continue to argue here while insulting your opponent. And for TigranTheGreat -yes, everybody except your sources is "stupid".-- Dacy69 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Baylaqan/Paytakaran was a province of Albania, along with Utik and Artsakh, which Armenia conquered during the period of its expansion. Those regions had almost no Armenian population, and Albania regained them in the 4th century A.D. The capital of Beylegan was the city of the same name, which existed also in Islamic times and was a large and prosperous city. Now I see that the modern rayon of Beylagan may have different borders than the Albanian province, but in that case we need to move this page to Baylaqan (province) and provide the information on the province and the city in both pre-Islamic and Islamic times. The historian Bosworth, whom Tigran called stupid, is actually one of the leading specialists on Persian history in the world, and he says about the city:
BAYLAQAN, Armenian form Paytakaran (cf. Marquart, Osteuropäische und ostasiatische Streifzüge, Leipzig, 1903, p. 457), a town of the medieval Islamic region of Arran (q.v.), the classical Caucasian Albania, lying in the triangle between the Kor and Aras (Araxes) rivers, in what is today the Mil steppe in Soviet Azerbaijan. In Islamic times, it lay on the highway connecting Ardabil and Bajarvan with Bardaa (qq.v); today, only ruins remain of Baylaqan, to the south-east of Shusha.
As you can see, it is neither in Salyan nor Lenkoran, so the province seems to cover much larger area. Paytakaran was not a historical Armenian land, as some of you claim. According to the book called The Armenian People From Ancient To Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century, edited by Richard G. Hovannisian:
Paytakaran, a completely alien land, left the Armenian orbit in 387, as did Korjaik, originally the kingdom of Gordyene, a foreign state that had belonged to Armenia for only about 250 years and whose territory was completely Kurdish in population even before the deportations of 1915.
P 16, Robert. H. Hewsen. Historical Geography
It also says on p 92:
A belt of Armenian peripheral lands fell away to its neighbors: Gugark in the north to Iberia, Utik and Arcax (Artsakh) in the northeast to Caucasian Albania, Paytakaran and Parskahayk in the east to Atrpatakan (modern Azerbaijan), and Korcek and Aljnik in the south to Mesopotamia, thus leaving a considerably reduced territory.
The Armenian People From Ancient To Modern Times: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century (Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times). ISBN 0312101694
Grandmaster 06:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator, we have a lengthy discussion on Urartu and I left a message for you and TigrantheGreat on your discussion pages to put signature for mediation. And now you say that you don't know anything. If there is no agreement on that I have to refer to other further procedure for resolving the dispute on Urartu.-- Dacy69 14:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I see - you just playing around. You know perfectly what is the subject of the dispute - we have discussed that. The page Urartu is blocked, and I invited you and TigrantheGreat sign mediation agreement. You don't want - perfect. I am refering to another procedure.-- Dacy69 19:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator and TigrantheGreat - you are doing blind reverts. When I put - see discusion: we have sources, including Armenian own. This is the first point. Second Eupator, I am quite civil. Look at your comments on me and my on you.-- Dacy69 23:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and the sources (including Armenian) say nothing about Paytakaran being in Albania.-- TigranTheGreat 19:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, could someone please give me a neutral summary of the dispute here? Thanks, Khoi khoi 06:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Paytakaran was the Armenian spelling of the name of Beylegan/Baylakan, the province and the city of Caucasian Albania, which existed also in Islamic times and the modern town of Beylegan is located not faraway from the ruins of the ancient city. I suggest renaming the article to Beylegan, as it was known under that name for much longer period of time. Grandmaster 06:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. None of the sources above say that the town of Baylakan was in the province of Paytakaran. In fact, as GM's source Iranica states, Baylakan was built by persian king Kavat (early 6th c. AD). Paytakaran as a province ceased to exist in 428 AD. There is no way Paytakaran could be in Baylaqan.-- TigranTheGreat 00:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The Armenian Foreign Ministry made that map. It was an alien land for 700 years under Armenia and where everyone spoke Armenian according to Strabo? You're funny Gm. :) Here's more maps with Paytakaran shown on the Caspian shore far from the modern rayon of Baylagan: [2], [3]...and you want to merge this and Baylagan?-- Eupator 15:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The juncture of Kura-Arax is different from the triangle of Kura-Arax, so these are two different locations, hence B is not P. P was south of Arax, B was north of Arax. As for Sanatruk, as the quote above shows, he was placed by Arm. king Trdat as the governor of the Armenian province of P. He rebelled against Armenia, and was defeated by Trdat. So, P. was clearly a province of Armenia. The Barbarians didn't live in P., they just killed the Armenian bishop. Strabo states that both Armenia and Albania have provinces named Caspiene. And Strabo states that in Caspiene people speak Armenian:
Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great,9 but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told. -- TigranTheGreat 09:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't matter who they cut it from, as long as it's not Albania. Hence it wasn't originally Albanian. By the way, Strabo clearly states that these lands were reconquests--4 centuries earlier Armenia had ruled a large portion of Asia. (Strabo, Geography, 11.13.5: "In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians" So these areas were part of Armenia, then they got to Media, and then Armenia got it back. And yes, everyone spoke Armenian as a result of the conquests--the kings conquered the Armenian speaking areas, and now the whole land speaks Armenian.
B can't be P because P was a city in 300's, and B was built in 500's (according to Iranica). So clearly it was a different Paytakaran. Moses of Chrorene and Movses D. clearly state that it was part of Armenia, which rebelled against Armenia. The ethnicity of its governor doesn't matter--he was the employee of the Armenia king, ruling over an Armenian province.-- TigranTheGreat 20:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Khoikhoi, you asked for summary of dispute. It is quite lengthy now. I don't see any sense to continue this dispute. The dispute can be resolved through third party involvement only. I had participated in the discussion before, and replies of opponents were replete of insults.-- Dacy69 22:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, about the events surrounding Sanatruk and Paytakaran in 300's. Armenian chronicles of the time are clear that Paytakaran was part of Armenia. Here is Movses Khorenatsi (III.3):
Блаженный Трдат проявлял великую твердость в деле поддержания веры и нравов, особенно в отношении тех, кто проживал в отдаленных частях его государства. Поэтому приходят должностные лица северо-восточных краев, управители дальнего города по названию Пайтакаран
Trdat was firm in upholding the faith, especially among those who lived in the farthest parts of his state. Therefore official persons come to him from the north-easterns areas, rulers of the far-away city of Paytakaran.
Pavstos Buzand, III.7 (about Sanatruk/Sanesan's rebellion against Armenia):
О разбойничьем набеге царя мазкутов на землю, подвластную армянскому царю, о происшедшей большой войне и о том, как он погиб вместе со своим войском.
В то время маскутский царь Санесан, сильно разгневавшись, проникся враждой к сородичу своему, армянскому царю Хосрову, и собрал он все войска, — гуннов, похов, таваспаров, хечматаков, ижмахов, гатов и глуаров, гугаров, шичбов и чилбов, и баласичев и егерсванов, и несметное множество других разношерстных кочевых племен[10], все множество войск, которым он повелевал. Он перешел свою границу, большую реку Куру и наводнил армянскую страну.
About attacks of the Mazkut king on the lands under the dominion of the Armenian king, and about how he died with his troops.
Mazkut king Sanesan, gathered all the troops--huns etc etc (the barbarians), and crossed the border, the great river Kura, and flooded the Armenian country.
Draskhanakertsi too talks how Sanatruk "rebelled" against Armenian king in the Armenian city of Paytakaran. So, clearly it was part of Armenia. And keep in mind this was 200 years before BAylakan was founded by Kavat I (According to Iranica). So, if Baylaqan had another name Paytakaran, it must have been a second city Paytakaran, unrelated to the province.-- TigranTheGreat 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes it does. If they were built in different times, then they are different. And your quote clearly states that P was in Armenia. Parcies have nothing to do with Albanians. And Strabo doesn't say P. was in Albania. Only the Albanian Caspiene (and I stated it in the article as well).-- TigranTheGreat 09:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Albanian Caspiene is Paytakaran. Strabo says both countries had Caspiene. IT couldn't be a joint control, so clearly there were two separate provinces. Parises are the persians. In the Armenian original, Buzand says "parsits yerkir,"--Country of persians. in the 5th century (i.e. Buzand's time), Paytakaran had been cut off and given to the persian mainland (and not Albania), hence he calls the area Persians' country. Yet all 3 sources--MD, MC, and PB, state that it was part of Armenia before 400's. And neither says population was non-Armenian. Strabo says they were Armenian.-- TigranTheGreat 02:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
If it were, it would have been speciafically distinguished as it is usually indicated in historic documents: one province or region with two ethnic groups, languages or with different state affiliations: French and British Guiana or Italian and German Tyrol or like we distinguish nowadays belonging of Kurdistan to different states - Turkish or Iranian Kurdistan. We have evidence which say that this land is alien to Armenia, people speak the same language (not two). Though it could belong to two different state in different time period. And there is the historic document which tells about rebellions against the Armenian king, that it is the sign that Armenia was in temporary possession of that region-- Dacy69 02:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Strabo says that Armenia swallowed three Median provinces: Caspiane, Faunitis and Basoropeda. So where does Albania fit into this? By the time Armenia loses Paytakaran/Caspiane there is no such thing as Albania! See Archaeology at the North-East Anatolian Frontier By A. G. Sagona, page 53. The tribes that inhabited Paytakaran were median not Albanian. That explains how they could have been easily Armenianized, Armenianizing Albanians would not have been so easy because their language was so alien. But Median and Armenian were very close. Sagona says that all those three provinces were inhabited by Median tribes not Albanian, particularly by Phasians. Now Strabo also says:"To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea;" (Book 11.4.5) . So this can only mean that there were two Caspiane and Tigran said all along. Otherwise how could there be a Median Caspiane taken by Armenians and an Albanian Caspiane? All sources also testify that Paytakaran stretched to the Caspian Sea and induded the Apcheron Strait.-- Eupator 15:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
How someone can imply that there were two Caspians from all sources above? It has never been mentioned in historic documents. It is only Eupator's and Tigran's asumption. That's it.-- Dacy69 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
MK talks about the Armenian Albania--south of Kura. Now, about Strabo's present tense--he states "Armenians took (i.e. regained) Caspiene, etc etc, and now they all speak Armenian." He does speak in present tense about the lands conquered by Artashes--they now all speak Armenian. Hence, they are still part of the same kingdom (of Armenia).
We already state in the article that Strabo says Albania had Caspiene. We just can't say it was Paytakaran, as it would be NOR.-- TigranTheGreat 23:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
After Utik was taken by Persians, and made into the Albanian marzpanate, Armenians called the area Aluanits Yerkir or Hayots Aluank. It was an Armenian populated and ruled area, and was separate from the Albania north of Kura. "now" means that they spoke Armenian before, but were separated from Armenia, but now they all speak Armenian. "took" means "regained" because they used to belong to Armenia before (in the 6th c BC onward), as stated by Strabo. And Paytakaran was the Armenian portion of Caspiene.
By the way, the idea that somehow Strabo doesn't include Paytakaran as part of Armenia is rejected by both the Greek sources and modern ones. Strabo, Pliny the Elder, and Ptolemy all stated that the boundary was river Kura. Even Iranica confirms this: "The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo" http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v1f8/v1f8a022.html. Paytakaran was south of Kura, so clearly part of Armenia. Now, whoever said that Caspiene went to Albania, it must have been the Albanian Caspiene. Tigranes conquered Albania, and then the whole Albania (including Caspiene) broke away. -- TigranTheGreat 04:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Plus, since in the Armenian Caspiene everyone spoke Armenian, while in the Albanian Caspiene the Caspian tribes lived, (not to mention that in the rest of Albania people spoke in 26 different languages), these are two different lands--one north of Kura, the other south.-- TigranTheGreat 04:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and for the 3rd time, MK was talking about the Armenian province of Albania, and only a tiny portion of Paytakaran (i.e. the city of Paytakaran), according to him, belonged to this province (actually, even here he was wrong, but it's a different matter).
According to strabo, Armenia grew twice in size in 190 BC. There is no way a small country could assimilate a foreign population twice its size in a mere century (till Strabo's time). So, your interpretation doesn't hold.
Strabo says Armenia ruled whole of Asia in 6th c BC. Paytakaran was part of Asia. So, it belonged to Armenia. Your map in the 3rd century shows what Armenia looked like after its lands were taken by other nations. luckily, Armenia regained those lands from these nations.-- TigranTheGreat 06:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is more on difference between the Armenian and caucasian Albanias. It's from GM's source:
http://www.armenianhouse.org/draskhanakertsi/history-ru/chapter11_20.html
I.e. Aluank--contrary to the Greco-roman Albania, starating with the marzpanate period (5th c), Armenian sources call the Kura-arax mesopotamia Aluank. After division of Armenia, the area and Cauc. Albania were joined to create a marzpanate called Albania. However, Armenia later gained greater independence (in later 5th c.), and at the same time in Artsakh and Utik the local Armenian noble house of Aranshahiks ruled.
Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia states the same. So does Khorenatsi--the Kura-Arax area was the inheritted land of Armenian Sisakans (called Aluanits plain), while north of Kura is where "barbarians" lived.
Here is Russian historian shnirelman stating the same (in his critique of Azerbaijani falsifications):
В то же время полностью игнорировался тот факт, что многое в этом тексте было заимствовано из армянских источников и что «страна Агванк» Мовсеса Каганкатваци была вовсе не идентична изначальной Кавказской Албании. Короче говоря, над рукописью Мамедовой, очевидно, основательно поработал ее редактор З.М. Буниятов.
www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/albanskymif.html
i.e. Azeri historians ignored the fact that MK'S work was based on earlier Armenian chronicles, and that "country Aluank" of MK was not the same as the original Caucasian Albania.-- TigranTheGreat 06:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC) -- TigranTheGreat 06:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
In Strabo's time, Paytakaran was part of Armenia. This negates any claim that it was part of Albania. Strabo and the Greeks never said that Caspiene south of Kura was ever in any way whatsoever connected with Albania. Saying so is pure fiction and original research.
Anyone who speaks Armenian is Armenian. Buzand never says parcies lived in P. Parcies simply had en empire, and now they are building nukes. B is not P since they were built in different times. Strabo never says Caspiene was lost to Albania, it's your original research. Armenian Aghvank is a fact, and it's confirmed by every single Armenian historian of Soviet and modern times, as well as Russian historians, and Armenian chronicles of medieval times. Sure it was an alien land that was Armenian populated by Armenians. Its climate, landscape, existence of a sea were totally alien to the rest of the Armenian upland, but it was still an Armenian land. -- TigranTheGreat 03:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigran, so many assumptions without substantial proof or reference to historic sources (putting aside the work of modern Armenian historians which can be biased as anyone's, particulularly now, in time of nationalism, and particularly in the Caucasus).
And your reflection about alien land and geography: "Sure it was an alien land that was Armenian populated by Armenians. Its climate, landscape, existence of a sea were totally alien to the rest of the Armenian upland, but it was still an Armenian land" - how we can make such conclusion? Then the Caucasus is Russian land. Why not? It is just their upland which they possessed for 200 years-- Dacy69 21:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Eupator, I am not Adil or whoever you think. I don't need to use someone's identity. I have my own. Please talk on substance. And on identity - I have my personal page where my profile is - enough not to be confused with someone else, I believe.-- Dacy69 06:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
About nationalism of medieval historians. Some of them were not so accurate and impartial. But, in general, I agree, there was no nationalism at that time, like it is now unfortunately. Gandzakatsi wrote about a Turkic ruler Melik-shah, who freed Armenian priesthood from taxes: "He (Melikshah) tamed the Universe not with wars and violence but with love and peace" - "покорил Вселенную не столько войной и насилием, сколько любовью и миром" (Киракос Гандзакаци. История Армении. М., 1976. С. 89). But it is different subject, let's return to Paytakaran.-- Dacy69 07:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Fully agree. I have not call ancient historians nationalists. It is about modern ones.-- Dacy69 19:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Uh-oh, did I unprotect this too soon? — Wknight94 ( talk) 18:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I am apparently part of the dispute, I wasn't even aware of, but since I have been dragged in it without my approuval, it will be nice for the users to tell me around what the dispute revolve so that I can be aware of the dispute I am allegedly part of.
My revert, since Grandmaster is creating false rumors on the reason of my revert. I did not revert to delete sourced materials, I did even not read what was added to be honest. I have reverted because the Azerbaijani name was in the lead, apparently just because the Armenian name was there.
Lets explain my motives for the revert.
There has been an Armenian province of Paytakaran, a historic place, written in Armenian script and transliteration. The classical name for a historic Armenian province is relevant. Unless there is now a Paytakaran in Azerbaijan on the same locality a sort of continuity, there is no relevance is including that name. It can not be considered as a local place, it is a historic province, and city, its Archaic, classical Armenian name has a historic relevance. What is the relevance of an Azeris word, which is modern and written by a modern alphabet? It doesn't have more relevance than lets say its Japanese transliteration. This was the reason of my revert, and I admit things were deleted in the process, but again, I had no idea of the content of the material deleted. Fad (ix) 04:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have yet to see a quote from Minorski supporting your views. And also, as I said many times before, Paytakaran was both city and province, and the city existed in Islamic era, while the province did not. I hope you are not going to deny that the center of the province called Paytakaran was the city called Paytakaran? Also, you removed the statement that Paytakaran was the province of Albania, do you deny that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran? Tigran and Eupator included in the article the statement that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran, and I agreed with it, because it is supported by many sources, including neutral and Armenian ones. Parishan quoted a source stating that Caspiane was the same as Paytakaran:
World History Encyclopædia, v. 2. Moscow: Mysl Publ., 1956: Caspiene, with its capital in Paytakaran, was also under the Armenian dominance...
Also, I refer you to Pawstos Buzand:
О каспах.
Потом спарапет Мушег жестоко отомстил стране парсиев [7] и городу Пайтакарану, ибо жители этой страны отложились от армянского царя и изменили ему. Спарапет-полководец Мушег, прибыв туда, многих из них казнил, отрубив головы, многих взял в плен, а остальных обложил данью, взял у них заложников и там оставил правительственных чиновников.
[7] Из этого места мы узнаем, что в стране Каспк (Каспиана античных авторов) и в этот период жило упоминаемое Страбоном племя парсиев или паррасиев (С. Т. Еремян).
About Caspis
Then sparapet Musheg took cruel revenge on the country of parcies and the city of Paytakaran, because the people of that country broke away from the Armenian king and betrayed him.
The footnote:
From this place we learn that the country of Kaspk (Caspiane of antique authors) was populated at that time by the tribe of Parsies or parracies, mentioned by Starbo. [13]
And Strabo says that Caspiane belonged to Albania. So it was an Albanian province, and further denial is pointless. Grandmaster 12:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Minorski is not the only authoritative source. Bosworth is one of the leading experts on the history of Iran, and his opinion cannot be disregarded. As for the rest, Caspiane = Paytakaran, check sources that I quoted. You only see what you want to see, completely ignoring the sources that don’t suite your position. Check Buzand, the reference is available here. And Albania was a country, check the quotes:
Strabo:
To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared. [14]
Article from Iranica about the Caspies. It says, inter alia:
Herodotus, Strabo, and other classical authors repeatedly mention the Caspians but do not seem to know much about them; they are grouped with other inhabitants of the southern shore of the Caspian Sea, like the Amardi, Anariacae, Cadusii (q.v.), Albani, and Vitii (Eratosthenes apud Strabo, 11.8.8), and their land (Kaspiane) is said to be part of Albania (Theophanes Mytilenaeus apud Strabo, 11.4.5). Whether or not they belonged to the Median empire is not clear. According to Herodotus (3.92.2), they, together with the Pausicae, Pantimathi, and Daritae, were included in the eleventh nomos of the Achaemenid empire under Darius I. This region later was attached to Media Atropatene and Albania in turn. [15]
Another quote:
Pompey then rearranged the political geography of the east. The exact details of the changes and their chronology are not always clear. Some were changed after Pompey and the young Tigranes fell out and after Parthian intervention. But the upshot was that by 59 BC Syria and Phoenicia had passed to Rome, Sophene to Cappadocia, and Adiabene to Parthia. Lesser Armenia went, probably, to Brogitarus, son-in-law of Deiotarus king of Galatia, and Caspiane to the Albanians.
A. E. Redgate. The Armenians (Peoples of Europe) ISBN-10: 0631220372
Moses Kalankatuatsi:
А после смерти Трдата некий Санатрук воцарился в Алуанке в городе Пайтакаране и восстал против армян. [16]
After the death of Trdat, some Sanatruk became a king in Albania (Aluank) in the city of Paytakaran and revolted against Armenians.
Moses Khorenatsi:
Также Страна касбов235 по этому поводу отложилась от нашего царя. Поэтому Арташес посылает на них Смбата со всей армянской ратью и сам сопровождает их в течение семи дней. Смбат, придя туда, усмиряет всех, а Страну касбов разоряет и уводит в Армению пленных больше, чем из Артаза, и с ними их царя Зардманоса.
235 Страна касбов — область низовьев Куры и Аракса (впадавших в древности в Каспийское море порознь), примыкающая к Каспийскому морю; страна Каспиана, упоминаемая Страбоном в связи с завоеваниями армянского царя Арташеса I.
The Country of kasbs also broke away from our king for the same reason. Therefore Artashes sent against them Smbat with the whole Armenian army and personally accompanied them for seven days. Upon arrival there Smbat pacified everyone, plundered the Country of kasbs and took away to Armenia more prisoners than were taken from Artaz, and their king Zardmanos was among them.
Footnote: The country of kasbs – the area of the lower courses of Kura and Araks (which in ancient times flowed into the Caspian sea separately), adjacent to the Caspian sea; the country of Caspiane, mentioned by Strabo in connection with the conquests of the Armenian king Artashes I. [17]
Pawstos Buzand:
О каспах.
Потом спарапет Мушег жестоко отомстил стране парсиев [7] и городу Пайтакарану, ибо жители этой страны отложились от армянского царя и изменили ему. Спарапет-полководец Мушег, прибыв туда, многих из них казнил, отрубив головы, многих взял в плен, а остальных обложил данью, взял у них заложников и там оставил правительственных чиновников.
[7] Из этого места мы узнаем, что в стране Каспк (Каспиана античных авторов) и в этот период жило упоминаемое Страбоном племя парсиев или паррасиев (С. Т. Еремян).
About Caspis
Then sparapet Musheg took cruel revenge on the country of parcies and the city of Paytakaran, because the people of that country broke away from the Armenian king and betrayed him.
The footnote:
From this place we learn that the country of Kaspk (Caspiane of antique authors) was populated at that time by the tribe of Parsies or Parracies, mentioned by Starbo. [18]
Once again I suggest we try mediation, maybe a third party will help us reach a consensus. I don’t understand why are you so reluctant to do so, if you are so sure that you are right. Grandmaster 09:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
If you think that I will embarrass myself, why do you refuse mediation? And also, Buzand talk about the country of parcies and city of Paytakaran, and the chapter is called “about kasps”, what in your opinion he refers to? The footnote explains that pretty clear, and it is an Armenian source. Paytakaran was also the province of Albania, it is obvious. As for your statement that “Paytakaran was under Tigran's domain after he was defeated by Pompey”, please cite your sources. I cited mine. And mind civility too. Grandmaster 11:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Kalankatuatsi was translated by an Armenian scholar, you may doubt his competence all you want, but he has no reason to distort the source, and Kalankatuatsi says: After the death of Trdat, some Sanatruk became a king in Aluank in the city of Paytakaran and revolted against Armenians. Grandmaster 11:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, even pro-Armenian sources like Hewsen accept that Paytakaran was a “completely alien land” to Armenia, check the above quote. Grandmaster 11:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
You can deny as much as you want, but it is obvious to everyone that you are simply trying to suppress the information that is inconvenient to you. And your refusal to get neutral people involved in this dispute speaks for itself. Another source for you:
Кроме этого, в зависимости от Армении находилась и Каспиана, центр которой был в Пайтакаране и правители которой считали себя Аршакидами. На протяжении IV в. все эти области отпали от Армении, а после смерти Тиридата III некто Санатрук присвоил себе корону, овладел Пайтакараном и заявил о захвате всей Армении. Правители Пайтакарана опирались на помощь Сасанидов и позднее помогали Шапуру II в войнах с Арменией. В 60-х годах IV в. от Армении отложились и другие албанские земли, которые также попали под влияние персов.
Всемирная история. Энциклопедия. Том 2. [19]
Caspiane, which had its center in Paytakaran and the rulers of which considered themselves Arsacids, was also under the Armenian dominion. During the IVth century all these regions broke away from Armenia, and after the death of Tiridat III some Sanatruk declared himself a king, took control of Paytakaran and announced the conquest of the whole Armenia. The rulers of Paytakaran relied on the help of Sasanians and later assisted Shapur II during the wars with Armenia.
The World Encyclopedia, Volume II.
Grandmaster 06:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Compare it with the country of Kaspk and the city of Paytakaran, mentioned by Buzand. Also, according to Hewsen, Paytakaran was an alien land to Armenia, which orbit it left for good in 387, as is obvious from the quote. What else it could be alien to? The planet Earth? Grandmaster 06:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)