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Did my contribution of the line "If you want to know why I am the way I am..." line survive the butchering of this article? I might be being dumb but I can't see it and it was a good quote... - Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Did my contribution of the line "If you want to know why I am the way I am..." line survive the butchering of this article? I might be being dumb but I can't see it and it was a good quote... - Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not a notable quote, you probably wont find it anywhere other than a repeat of the episode. Trampikey only added it during the first FAC because J.Winklethorpe asked us to include why Pauline became so miserable, and the deaths of her family was the reason why, according to the writers in 2004.-- Gung adin 16:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
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was invoked but never defined (see the
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cite news}}
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Saw this on TFA/R, thought "no, British soaps and FAs don't mix", but actually, I am very impressed. Will ( talk) 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Tabloid trash on the mainpage? what next? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.107.200.20 (
talk)
17:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
<div style="width:55%; background-color:#f5fffa; border:1px solid #cef2e0;padding:1em;padding-top:0.5em; color: black"> <div style="float:left;margin-right:0.9em"> [[Image:Pauline Fowler.jpg|left|150px|Wendy Richard as Pauline Fowler, 2006.]] </div> <div> '''[[Pauline Fowler]]''' ([[Married and maiden names|née]] Beale) is one of the [[fictional character]]s from the [[BBC]] [[soap opera]] ''[[EastEnders]]'', a long-running [[serial drama]] about [[working class]] [[London]]. The character is no longer part of current storylines, but was played by actress [[Wendy Richard]] between 1985 and 2006. Pauline was created by scriptwriter [[Tony Holland]] and producer [[Julia Smith]] as one of ''EastEnders' ''original characters. She made her debut in the soap's first episode on [[19 February]] [[1985]], and remained on-screen for twenty-one years and ten months, making her the second longest-running original character, surpassed only by [[Ian Beale]]. Pauline Fowler's storylines focus on drudgery, money worries and family troubles. The matriarchal stalwart of the fictional London community of [[Albert Square]], she is portrayed as a stoic, opinionated, battle-axe — a family-oriented woman who alienates her kin due to overbearing interference. Pauline's marriage to the downtrodden [[Arthur Fowler|Arthur]] was central to the character for the first eleven years of the programme, culminating with his screen death in 1996. She was used for comedic purposes in scenes with her [[Self-service laundry|launderette]] colleague, [[Dot Branning]], and scriptwriters included many feuds in her narrative, most notably with her daughter-in-law, [[Sonia Fowler|Sonia]], and [[Den Watts]], a family-friend who got her daughter [[Michelle Fowler|Michelle]] pregnant at just 16. A famous episode in 1986, which included Pauline discovering that Den was the father of Michelle's baby, drew over 30 million viewers, and was listed at #36 in ''[[The Times]]' '' 1998 list of "Top 100 cult moments in Film". ('''[[Pauline Fowler|more…]]''') </div> </div> -Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
DAMN, March 11 has been taken by Chrono Trigger. Gung adin 21:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Per 3RR, I can no longer revert. However, I am deeply unhappy about this amateur looking, trivial section. Her family are listed in a template at the article's bottom and in the infobox, so a third section is stupid anyway. But to have this makes the article look a lot less like an encyclopedia, I'm sure fans will be interested that her second cousin twice removed is Nellie Ellis, but its not encyclopedia at all. A list of misc family members is not suitable for Wikipedia. The arguments, from Trampikey, include "it provides extra info" - which is purely trivial. Remember this is an encyclopedia not a fansite. Another reason is "links ot toer characters" - the links are provided in the infobox and template. In addition, Pauline Fowler's article is about her, not a useful list of other EastEnders characters. The other reason is "per all other WPEE articles", this one is a FA and should set the example. All the actual guideline is at the Wikiproject and comes below the WP guidelines. Trampikey also states that the family section was there when it became a FA, well according to this it wasn't. It was added back by an IP here some weeks later. This was removed by Elonka later and then re-added by Trampikey many times when people have removed it. -- UpDown ( talk) 19:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Aren't there unnecessary non-free images on this page? I attempted to remove 5 of the 78 non-free images but was reverted.
86.44.16.82 (
talk)
19:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I realize this discussion has now gone cold, but just so editors can get an idea of where I'm coming from here—a point on which there has been some question—permit me to talk about my reasoning in leaving the 7th image in the article when I made my edit.
To me, Fowler's death, in conjunction with being an obviously highly notable moment in the subject's article, has a strange quality to it, especially in terms of soap deaths, a highly visual and almost lyrical quality that I cannot imagine can be adequately imparted by text alone. I would therefore argue strongly for its inclusion in any debate, not that there is one. But it's entirely a subjective argument, and if consensus went against me, I could not therefore feel anything that could give rise to more than a shrug. Were my thoughts on the visual quality of this death backed up by sources, I would feel I had a stronger case. Hence my recent ambivalence with regard to the frying pan pic, based merely on the word "iconic" in a source. I don't think I'm being a non-free "hawk" here, I just feel that many of the images are decorative, and that such use is unbecoming of an FA standard article here on Wikipedia. 86.44.21.238 ( talk) 19:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, "we" (so far) refers to Elonka and I, seeing as we have defended the use of the images in this discussion, but it can also be extended to everyone who was part of the discussion we had last year concerning which images we should include during the FAC, because if we didnt feel they were important, we wouldnt have kept them in. GG Moan 22:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
My two cents: the infobox image and the 1985 image illustrate what the character looked like at the start and end of her appearances in the serial, so should stay. The frying pan picture should stay as it is an iconic scene used in almost every documentary ever discussing Pauline, as it illustrates her domineering personality and is part of the Mrs Hewitt storyline. The picture of Arthur and Pauline, as Gungadin said, illustrates the longest marriage in the soap's history, that of Pauline and Joe is discussed in the article as being Wendy Richard's reason for leaving, the picture of Pauline and Dot illustrates their famous friendship, and also Pauline's work life, the picture of Pauline dead shows her last scene, and the big, important Christmas plot of 2006, and the picture of Sonia slapping Pauline also illustrates her domineering personality over Martin, and shows the culmination of Pauline's bullying of Sonia, however, it is (in my opinion) the only disposable picture in the article. -Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 18:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, i apologise if I came over as mean, but seriously, what am I supposed to be here, grateful to you? I'm sure you've got some idea of just how much work has gone into this bloody article to get in to FA? So, you coming here trying to effectively ruin the appearance of the article by removing images that people have taken a lot of time to get hold of was never going to be welcomed now was it? If you choose to do this sort of wiki-policing, then a little resistance from editors comes with the territory.
But despite all that I feel I have been accommodating. However, i'm getting frustrated with this now, because we are going around in circles and I find this such a trivial issue, one that is taking up time that we could both spend on other things. It's just one image! If I had my way, no images would be removed. Others here have said the same, including Elonka. Despite this, we have said that you can delete two, but you still have to have the third deleted. You rightly say that we dont share the same opinion on the importance of the third image. Well, ive been saying that all along, glad we are now on the same page here. What to do then? Well, seeing as three editors, as opposed to one (you), have said that they feel that image should be kept in, it makes sense to me that you just let the matter drop, go with consensus, be happy that you've rid the article of two evil fairuse images, and we can both move on. I will go ahead and remove the two for you, hoping that this discussion can end. GG Moan 22:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There are problems with tense throughout the article due to the fact that both the character and the actress who played her are dead. We need to be careful to to distinguish between actions in specific shows ("in the January 20, 2000 episode, Pauline does X") vs what she was or did or represented in the series as a whole, and what Richards said about her while she was alive. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is currently in the queue to be Wikipedia's "Featured Article" later this month. Currently there's no image that's lined up for the mainpage, because Wikipedia can only use one that's freely licensed, not anything that's "fair use". Can anyone figure out an image we might use that could be freely licensed? -- El on ka 04:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Yeh that'd work. GunGagdin Moan 00:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I know I must add "fair use" rationale to this article. However, I could not figure out where to insert this image. -- George Ho ( talk) 12:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I have changed the file names to the title of this section. Also, I have added rationale. You can use {{ db-g7}} on File:Pauline Fowler.jpg if you want. -- George Ho ( talk) 21:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I have uploaded this file, but I have not added this image to this article yet. Can anyone help me add a rationale before I add this file to a section of her marriage with Arthur? -- George Ho ( talk) 01:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
No, it would not be deemed essential in this article, just essential in the article named Arthur Fowler. The only way you can get away with decorating this page is by using free images. If you happened to have a picture of Bill Treacher, that could be used. But a copyrighted image of Arthur Fowler, taken by the BBC would not be considered 'fair use' in Pauline's article. GunGagdin Moan 03:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I have added rationale for this image. Does it pass NFCC#8? If so, may I add it to "Marriage to Arthur" section? -- George Ho ( talk) 12:03, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I have acquired a photo of her holding MBE Award, but I wonder if you have approval to have it added in the "Reception" section of this article. -- George Ho ( talk) 03:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if this couple meets WP:GNG and would guarantee their own article. I tried to find sources that determine their own notability, independence from EastEnders, Pauline Fowler herself, and Arthur Fowler himself, in Google. Haven't tried Free Library yet. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Rain, GSorby and Anemone P. GunGagdin Moan 19:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Except when they make other articles more difficult to find and do not lead to what people searching for that term might be looking for. That's what I meant about Arthur and Pauline. Hard as it might be to believe, not everybody looking for that combination of names might be interested in the EastEnders... Huon ( talk) 17:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
It is absolutely ludicrous not to include Lucy, Peter and Bobby. Pauline was an important part of the formative years - she was effectively the closest thing they had to a grandmother when Kathy was in South Africa. There was a strong notable connection. If you want to destroy the link between the two characters, then remove the 'Relatives' section altogether. I would include David Wicks seeing as he spent sometime on the Square whilst Pauline was around, in fact the whole storyline about who ran the fruit-and-veg stall was about an internal rivalry between the Fowlers and the Beales.-- 86.135.53.139 ( talk) 15:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm actually OK with Nellie being there (she was a quite significant relative for a time) and David (who was her nephew and treated as such after a while, including giving advice IIRC). I'm also OK for Elizabeth to be there as her niece for much the same reason. The rest I have removed again, though, per AP. Stephenb (Talk) 09:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
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Did my contribution of the line "If you want to know why I am the way I am..." line survive the butchering of this article? I might be being dumb but I can't see it and it was a good quote... - Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Did my contribution of the line "If you want to know why I am the way I am..." line survive the butchering of this article? I might be being dumb but I can't see it and it was a good quote... - Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not a notable quote, you probably wont find it anywhere other than a repeat of the episode. Trampikey only added it during the first FAC because J.Winklethorpe asked us to include why Pauline became so miserable, and the deaths of her family was the reason why, according to the writers in 2004.-- Gung adin 16:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
References
guardianculture
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite episode}}
: Missing or empty |series=
(
help)
Saw this on TFA/R, thought "no, British soaps and FAs don't mix", but actually, I am very impressed. Will ( talk) 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Tabloid trash on the mainpage? what next? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.107.200.20 (
talk)
17:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
<div style="width:55%; background-color:#f5fffa; border:1px solid #cef2e0;padding:1em;padding-top:0.5em; color: black"> <div style="float:left;margin-right:0.9em"> [[Image:Pauline Fowler.jpg|left|150px|Wendy Richard as Pauline Fowler, 2006.]] </div> <div> '''[[Pauline Fowler]]''' ([[Married and maiden names|née]] Beale) is one of the [[fictional character]]s from the [[BBC]] [[soap opera]] ''[[EastEnders]]'', a long-running [[serial drama]] about [[working class]] [[London]]. The character is no longer part of current storylines, but was played by actress [[Wendy Richard]] between 1985 and 2006. Pauline was created by scriptwriter [[Tony Holland]] and producer [[Julia Smith]] as one of ''EastEnders' ''original characters. She made her debut in the soap's first episode on [[19 February]] [[1985]], and remained on-screen for twenty-one years and ten months, making her the second longest-running original character, surpassed only by [[Ian Beale]]. Pauline Fowler's storylines focus on drudgery, money worries and family troubles. The matriarchal stalwart of the fictional London community of [[Albert Square]], she is portrayed as a stoic, opinionated, battle-axe — a family-oriented woman who alienates her kin due to overbearing interference. Pauline's marriage to the downtrodden [[Arthur Fowler|Arthur]] was central to the character for the first eleven years of the programme, culminating with his screen death in 1996. She was used for comedic purposes in scenes with her [[Self-service laundry|launderette]] colleague, [[Dot Branning]], and scriptwriters included many feuds in her narrative, most notably with her daughter-in-law, [[Sonia Fowler|Sonia]], and [[Den Watts]], a family-friend who got her daughter [[Michelle Fowler|Michelle]] pregnant at just 16. A famous episode in 1986, which included Pauline discovering that Den was the father of Michelle's baby, drew over 30 million viewers, and was listed at #36 in ''[[The Times]]' '' 1998 list of "Top 100 cult moments in Film". ('''[[Pauline Fowler|more…]]''') </div> </div> -Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 23:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
DAMN, March 11 has been taken by Chrono Trigger. Gung adin 21:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Per 3RR, I can no longer revert. However, I am deeply unhappy about this amateur looking, trivial section. Her family are listed in a template at the article's bottom and in the infobox, so a third section is stupid anyway. But to have this makes the article look a lot less like an encyclopedia, I'm sure fans will be interested that her second cousin twice removed is Nellie Ellis, but its not encyclopedia at all. A list of misc family members is not suitable for Wikipedia. The arguments, from Trampikey, include "it provides extra info" - which is purely trivial. Remember this is an encyclopedia not a fansite. Another reason is "links ot toer characters" - the links are provided in the infobox and template. In addition, Pauline Fowler's article is about her, not a useful list of other EastEnders characters. The other reason is "per all other WPEE articles", this one is a FA and should set the example. All the actual guideline is at the Wikiproject and comes below the WP guidelines. Trampikey also states that the family section was there when it became a FA, well according to this it wasn't. It was added back by an IP here some weeks later. This was removed by Elonka later and then re-added by Trampikey many times when people have removed it. -- UpDown ( talk) 19:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Aren't there unnecessary non-free images on this page? I attempted to remove 5 of the 78 non-free images but was reverted.
86.44.16.82 (
talk)
19:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I realize this discussion has now gone cold, but just so editors can get an idea of where I'm coming from here—a point on which there has been some question—permit me to talk about my reasoning in leaving the 7th image in the article when I made my edit.
To me, Fowler's death, in conjunction with being an obviously highly notable moment in the subject's article, has a strange quality to it, especially in terms of soap deaths, a highly visual and almost lyrical quality that I cannot imagine can be adequately imparted by text alone. I would therefore argue strongly for its inclusion in any debate, not that there is one. But it's entirely a subjective argument, and if consensus went against me, I could not therefore feel anything that could give rise to more than a shrug. Were my thoughts on the visual quality of this death backed up by sources, I would feel I had a stronger case. Hence my recent ambivalence with regard to the frying pan pic, based merely on the word "iconic" in a source. I don't think I'm being a non-free "hawk" here, I just feel that many of the images are decorative, and that such use is unbecoming of an FA standard article here on Wikipedia. 86.44.21.238 ( talk) 19:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, "we" (so far) refers to Elonka and I, seeing as we have defended the use of the images in this discussion, but it can also be extended to everyone who was part of the discussion we had last year concerning which images we should include during the FAC, because if we didnt feel they were important, we wouldnt have kept them in. GG Moan 22:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
My two cents: the infobox image and the 1985 image illustrate what the character looked like at the start and end of her appearances in the serial, so should stay. The frying pan picture should stay as it is an iconic scene used in almost every documentary ever discussing Pauline, as it illustrates her domineering personality and is part of the Mrs Hewitt storyline. The picture of Arthur and Pauline, as Gungadin said, illustrates the longest marriage in the soap's history, that of Pauline and Joe is discussed in the article as being Wendy Richard's reason for leaving, the picture of Pauline and Dot illustrates their famous friendship, and also Pauline's work life, the picture of Pauline dead shows her last scene, and the big, important Christmas plot of 2006, and the picture of Sonia slapping Pauline also illustrates her domineering personality over Martin, and shows the culmination of Pauline's bullying of Sonia, however, it is (in my opinion) the only disposable picture in the article. -Trampikey( talk)( contribs) 18:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, i apologise if I came over as mean, but seriously, what am I supposed to be here, grateful to you? I'm sure you've got some idea of just how much work has gone into this bloody article to get in to FA? So, you coming here trying to effectively ruin the appearance of the article by removing images that people have taken a lot of time to get hold of was never going to be welcomed now was it? If you choose to do this sort of wiki-policing, then a little resistance from editors comes with the territory.
But despite all that I feel I have been accommodating. However, i'm getting frustrated with this now, because we are going around in circles and I find this such a trivial issue, one that is taking up time that we could both spend on other things. It's just one image! If I had my way, no images would be removed. Others here have said the same, including Elonka. Despite this, we have said that you can delete two, but you still have to have the third deleted. You rightly say that we dont share the same opinion on the importance of the third image. Well, ive been saying that all along, glad we are now on the same page here. What to do then? Well, seeing as three editors, as opposed to one (you), have said that they feel that image should be kept in, it makes sense to me that you just let the matter drop, go with consensus, be happy that you've rid the article of two evil fairuse images, and we can both move on. I will go ahead and remove the two for you, hoping that this discussion can end. GG Moan 22:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There are problems with tense throughout the article due to the fact that both the character and the actress who played her are dead. We need to be careful to to distinguish between actions in specific shows ("in the January 20, 2000 episode, Pauline does X") vs what she was or did or represented in the series as a whole, and what Richards said about her while she was alive. Exploding Boy ( talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is currently in the queue to be Wikipedia's "Featured Article" later this month. Currently there's no image that's lined up for the mainpage, because Wikipedia can only use one that's freely licensed, not anything that's "fair use". Can anyone figure out an image we might use that could be freely licensed? -- El on ka 04:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Yeh that'd work. GunGagdin Moan 00:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I know I must add "fair use" rationale to this article. However, I could not figure out where to insert this image. -- George Ho ( talk) 12:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I have changed the file names to the title of this section. Also, I have added rationale. You can use {{ db-g7}} on File:Pauline Fowler.jpg if you want. -- George Ho ( talk) 21:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I have uploaded this file, but I have not added this image to this article yet. Can anyone help me add a rationale before I add this file to a section of her marriage with Arthur? -- George Ho ( talk) 01:42, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
No, it would not be deemed essential in this article, just essential in the article named Arthur Fowler. The only way you can get away with decorating this page is by using free images. If you happened to have a picture of Bill Treacher, that could be used. But a copyrighted image of Arthur Fowler, taken by the BBC would not be considered 'fair use' in Pauline's article. GunGagdin Moan 03:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I have added rationale for this image. Does it pass NFCC#8? If so, may I add it to "Marriage to Arthur" section? -- George Ho ( talk) 12:03, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I have acquired a photo of her holding MBE Award, but I wonder if you have approval to have it added in the "Reception" section of this article. -- George Ho ( talk) 03:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if this couple meets WP:GNG and would guarantee their own article. I tried to find sources that determine their own notability, independence from EastEnders, Pauline Fowler herself, and Arthur Fowler himself, in Google. Haven't tried Free Library yet. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Rain, GSorby and Anemone P. GunGagdin Moan 19:46, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Except when they make other articles more difficult to find and do not lead to what people searching for that term might be looking for. That's what I meant about Arthur and Pauline. Hard as it might be to believe, not everybody looking for that combination of names might be interested in the EastEnders... Huon ( talk) 17:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
It is absolutely ludicrous not to include Lucy, Peter and Bobby. Pauline was an important part of the formative years - she was effectively the closest thing they had to a grandmother when Kathy was in South Africa. There was a strong notable connection. If you want to destroy the link between the two characters, then remove the 'Relatives' section altogether. I would include David Wicks seeing as he spent sometime on the Square whilst Pauline was around, in fact the whole storyline about who ran the fruit-and-veg stall was about an internal rivalry between the Fowlers and the Beales.-- 86.135.53.139 ( talk) 15:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm actually OK with Nellie being there (she was a quite significant relative for a time) and David (who was her nephew and treated as such after a while, including giving advice IIRC). I'm also OK for Elizabeth to be there as her niece for much the same reason. The rest I have removed again, though, per AP. Stephenb (Talk) 09:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
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This article suffers from a lot of sourcing issues, for example. It is cited as "Wiggins, p. 118" and it is not linked directly to the references at all. It has mostly been using inconclusive sources such as Sunday Mirror, The Stage, and Daily Record. Some sources might be reliable, but the contents are low quality. But sources like this [5] [6] are low quality, and most of them are pretty much dead like ref 3 and other BBC sources (there's other sources that are much also dead) + questionable sources such as ref 51, 52, 53, 54, 56, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 68, 71, 72, 73, 75, 81, 83 (unreliable), 88 and 89. So, this article definitely needs a lot of work in order to survive modern FA criteria. 🍕 Boneless Pizza!🍕 ( 🔔) 11:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)