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page archived if only to provide a moment's peace from the relentless screeds. saul tillich, why not just start a freaking blog somewhere. you aren't interested in writing an encyclopedia, you're interested in promulgating your views. that's just what blogs are for. they're great! even i have one! Anastrophe ( talk) 04:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The article’s “Theology” section pretends to explain, but the author (Jonalexdeval) is merely paraphrasing statements he himself doesn’t understand. At the same time, in referring to “the norm,” which is “Jesus as the Christ,” the author misleads his readers in four ways:
As the article now stands, it is mostly unintelligible gibberish, meaningless abstraction. Take this pair of sentences: “It is important to remember that, for Tillich, no formulation of the question [a question that the method of correlation answers] can contradict the theological answer. This is because the Christian message claims, a priori, that the logos ‘who became flesh’ is also the universal logos of the Greeks.” Don’t you see the non sequitur? How does either (a) identifying the Greek Logos with God or (b) having God become incarnated as a man make it impossible for a question to contradict a theological answer, assuming contradiction really is impossible? Taken literally, those are two unrelated assertions. The author is claiming, thoughtlessly and without comprehension (just paraphrasing what either McKelway or Tillich said), that if God is not or was not also the Logos, or else was not incarnated, a question COULD contradict the theological answer.
The author pretends to explain but clearly doesn’t understand what Tillich means in the two sentences, taken from another source, that he paraphrases. He is taking the words literally, whereas they have no literal meaning. What does it mean for a question to contradict its answer? How does God’s being the Logos prevent such contradiction? Taken literally, the words are unadulterated nonsense. Tillich is using his private symbolic language. To those who understand this symbolic language, the sentences do make sense. But I challenge the author (and his friends) to explain, by giving a nontheological example of a Q and its A, (1) what it means for a question to “contradict” an answer and (2) how, if “the Logos became flesh” (Jn. 1:14), does it become impossible for a question to contradict an answer. Not even the author can explain either (1) or (2), so what we have is nonsense, gibberish. (Only those who know what “question” and “answer” symbolize, what “contradict” means in this context, and why “Jesus as the Christ” must be “the norm,” can turn nonsense into sense.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saul Tillich (talk • contribs) 02:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason your paraphrased summary of what Tillich wrote is nonsensical is that it misrepresents what Tillich wrote. You claim Tillich said this: “It is important to remember that, for Tillich, no formulation of the question can contradict the theological answer. This is because the Christian message claims, a priori, that the logos ‘who became flesh’ is also the universal logos of the Greeks.” But Tillich actually said that no philosophy (not “no question”) based on the Greek logos can contradict the logos of John 1:14 (meaning a philosophy–not an “answer”-- based on John 1:14). The words “question” and “answer” do not appear in the quotation that follows; neither does “because” or its equivalent.
Here, from page 28 of ST, vol. 1, is what Tillich actually wrote: “The Christian claim that the logos who has become concrete in Jesus as the Christ [John 1:14] is at the same time the universal [Greek] logos includes the claim that wherever the logos is at work it agrees with the Christian message. No philosophy which is obedient to the universal [Greek] logos can contradict [a philosophy based on] the concrete logos [John 1:14], the Logos ‘who became flesh’.” The implicit reason the two philosophies can’t conflict is that the Greek logos and the Christian logos (God) are the same.
Had you understood what Tillich means by an “apologetic” theology you might have avoided turning Tillich’s thought into nonsense. An apologetic theology is a proselytizing theology. More specifically, it is a theology in which the proselytizer says to the person being recruited, “Our God is your God under another name.” Example: “Our God is Allah under a different name, so you can become a Christian.” When Paul and the author of the gospel of John proselytized in the Hellenistic (culturally Greek) world, they told the Hellenists that they could become Christians because their “God”–not really a god but the metaphysical Logos–was God under another name. “John” claimed that the Greek logos became Jesus. To my knowledge, nobody has ever questioned the obvious fact that, in applying the name “Logos” to God and Jesus, John’s author was not entertaining the idea that there is more than one logos.
In calling his own theology apologetic, Tillich is doing essentially the same thing as Paul and “John.” He is offering a “theology” of humanism to the Christians he would recruit to humanism by giving the name “God” to his metaphorical god, humanity. Christianity’s God becomes the counterpart of the Hellenists’ logos. Tillich is saying, in effect, “you can become humanists because your God of theism and my ‘God above the God of theism’ are both named God.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.51.132 ( talk) 00:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
While this is all very interesting, Wikipedia isn't really the place to debate Tillich's theology. The article should have a simple summary of the various opinions scholars have put forth in the literature, and not take sides. -- Delirium ( talk) 10:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea what is meant by "Ground of Being". That sentence is vague, and since it's apparently one of his big contributions, can we get a better description? Mrsastrochicken ( talk) 15:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems that this section is slightly anachronistic. It is reading Tillich's definition of God as the "Ground of Being" through Marion's "God without Being." Tillich still reads "God" as an ontological designation (not just a semiotic one) [Sys. Theo. 1, 227]. Further the many different definitions listed of God ("Ground of Being", "Abyss", etc) are all pointing to one reality, they are not different attempts at a definition but different attempts at description because God is infinite and different--which is why he says that the analogia entis (analogy of being) is what gives us our only justification for speaking about God (Sys Theo 1, 266). Also, I'm not sure that one can really say Tillich rejects the personal God. For instance, the providence of God is "God directing creativity creating through the freedom of man" (Sys Theo 1, 296). Further, the principle of participation (sys Theo 1, 300) is one that is "personal" by its very nature. Man is "saved" by reuniting with the divine, not in a pantheistic or panentheistic way, but in communion and participation (Sys Theo 3, 48 and 222). He also says that participation only works as love (Sys Theo 3, 48). Reading him as pantheistic or panentheistic turns him into an Eastern mystic, something which did not really interact with Christianity until well after Tillich died. Impleri ( talk) 16:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Impleri, I concur with this assessment, and I have made some modifications to the beginning of this section. I am still working on this section, and welcome comments and criticism. I have authored the first 3 paragraphs almost exclusively. I should like to point out, however, that the analogia entis has a different meaning for Tillich than its medieval employment, and thus in a way does not exactly correlate to what Barth criticizes, in my view. Tillich states in the same place that he does not mean by analogia entis "the property of a questionable natural theology which attempts to gain knowledge of God by drawing conclusions about the infinite from the finite" [STI, 1951, 240]. Instead, he means to say that, once we understand that God is not a being but is the ground of being itself and constitutes its structures, this then means that a description of "a finite segment being" can become the basis of an assertion about the infinite "because that which is infinite is being-itself and because everything participates in being-itself" [ibid, 239]. T's understanding of the symbol, in this way, is more classical than modern: the symbol is a finite reality which participates in the infinite, and thus mediates its reality. Likewise, everything can become a symbol of God in some way, and his understanding of revelation is related. T then does have this in common with Barth's analogia fidei: that the circle of faith or of theology cannot be entered into by means of an analysis of being, but only that in the apologetic moment, such ontological common ground can be found because God is the ground of being, of all being, inside and outside the circle of faith. This is why T's method is a method of correlation: we do not derive Christian symbols from the contemporary situation, but we correlate them. The older meaning of the analogia entis meant that the doctrine of God could be derived from an analysis of the world and then predicating it of God. In my view, this is not what Tillich means (and if he did then I suspect he really would be a pantheist, which would then render impossible the divine-human encounter...), and so I find the statement that T views the analogia entis as the only justification for theology to be in need of clarification. I only say this since this topic might be interesting to include in the article in some fashion, as his relationship to Barth and to traditional Lutheran theology is currently an open debate. -Gamorgan10
The section on "God Above God" refers to God as "Being" but later refers to God as Being and uses a lower-case B. Why is this? Vorbee ( talk) 08:30, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
I would like to see someone who has broad theological knowledge contrast the theological ideas of Paul Tillich with the ideas of other well-known theologians (e.g. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.). For example, although I have read three books by Paul Tillich it is not clear to me where or how he differs from the theology of my own religion (i.e. Roman Catholicism.) I think this because he seldom, if ever, states clearly how he differs from other positions. Perhaps if I read his "Systematic Theology" I'll understand him better? Aletheia ( talk) 17:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC) In his auto-biography, "On the Boundary" he says he could not sit on the boundary between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. He does talk about other boundaries. Vorbee ( talk) 09:22, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm no expert in Tillich's theology (I only have an M.Div), although I greatly appreciate the aspects of his thought that I do understand. That's why, when I read the Wiki article (as it is today, 15/06/11), I didn't have the same objections that many others have on this talk page. I'll leave all that to those who really know what they're talking about.
My only objection is this article presents a sort of one-dimensional view of Tillich. The Paul Tillich of the Wikipedia article comes across as barely human; as an almost disembodied Super Mind. But the greatest thinkers in history (in all disciplines) are also real humans, and Hannah Tillich's memoir fills in the human side of the man. Years ago I was appalled by the sexist ranting of Rollo May, when he fumed against the book (From Time to Time). He claimed she had no right to say any of that, and that had she not been married to Tillich in the first place, she never could have published a book, because who gives a rip about some old German woman anyway? It was as if Hannah had committed some horrible act of blasphemy.
Hannah's book is not a polemic, not an argumentum ad hominem at all. She and Paul were both products of Weimar-era Germany, and sexuality was normal, open, non-taboo (that is, until the Right Wingers took over in 1933). For everything sexual she states about her husband, she states as many or more about herself. E.g., after the first 60 pages or so it's crystal clear to the reader that she was fully bi-sexual, and had no shame or angst about it.
So...why (at the bottom/end) of the article, can't there be a mention of her book; of Paulus the real, living, flesh & blood human? I'm not proposing a salacious cut & paste from only the sexy parts of the book. Nor, a long drawn out portrait that would end up looking like Tillich-trivia. Rather, just a mention of the book's subject matter, a cited reference to Rolo May's objections to it, and a reference to Martin Marty's Christian Century review of the book (from the 26 SEP 1973 edition).
But, if (and it's only an if ; I'm not accusing anyone) this page is dominated by hagiographers--if most of the editors are trying to project a "Saint Paul Tillich,"--then I won't even waste my time, cuz I know it will get deleted a few minutes after posting. (Similar crap has happened before on Wikipdedia; e.g. when Hindu nationalists hijacked the Jeffry J. Kripal article about six years ago).
But I doubt it's that bad on this page; after all From Time to Time is used as an endnote on this article.
Any thoughts on this?
Mahamaya1 ( talk) 14:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Microphage ( talk) 04:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for this. I read "From Time to Time" (on loan from a library) many year ago. I remember a review in a paper said that with the exception of Augustine of Hippo, we know little of the sex lives of theologians. It described the book as a "wounded and wounding account" of Hannah's life with Paul, and noted how, according to the book, Tillich was hopelessly devoted to pornography. However, the review did point out that at times, Hannah appeared to give grounds for her own execution (the review's words, not mine). It also mentioned how Rollo May interpreted Tillich's love affairs as looking for his lost mother. Tillich's mother actually died when Tillich was seventeen, not as young as Tillich liked to make out. If any one has read "From Time to Time" by Hannah Tillich, or "Paulus" by Rollo May more recently than I have done, s/he is welcome to put this information in the article. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 15:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
If there is to be a section about Tillich's personal and family life, then it should take into account the latest scholarship, including the articles written which rather contextualize Hannah Tillich's character assassination book. In particular the essay by René Tillich called "My father, Paul Tillich" in the volume "Spurensuche. Lebens- und Denkwege Paul Tillichs" (2001), sheds important light. 192.76.8.35 ( talk) 13:41, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that there needs to be some mention of the Tillich the man. At the moment the article tends to be almost all about his theology. And the treatment does not need to be salacious nor should it be malicious; but it relevant to know more about his attitudes to sex and sexuality. Research17 ( talk) 16:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I have been a big fan of Tillich since high school, and I also just completed Tillich's "A History of Christian Thought". I came to this article because I was curious about how it was written, and I was immediately struck by the "influenced by" section on the right hand column. Tillich's thought was so rich and comprehensive that we really could include any philosopher or thinker in that list (like Descartes and Fichte are currently), but he himself admits to being most influenced by Augustine and Origen of ancient Christianity, Martin Luther of the Reformation, and Schelling and Martin Kahler in the more modern period. I am slightly correcting this list to recognize the thinkers who Tillich holds close to his heart in "A History of Christian Thought". Fichte and Descartes cannot be considered amongst the several most important philosophical and theological influences in his thought. And while he does mention in his works his respect for many, many thinkers, only the ones he attaches himself to should be mentioned. Uriah is Boss ( talk) 02:22, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I understand that King wrote his doctoral dissertation on Tillich's work. If true, I believe that point is worth mention here. -- Christofurio ( talk) 13:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In the top right corner, there is a table saying spouse/s which is followed by Hannah. In fact, Paul divorced from his first wife and then married Hannah, so the table requires the necessary modification. Vorbee ( talk) 21:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC) In fact, if you read this article carefully it does say that Tillich had been married to Margarethe Wever before he met Hannah (and in From Time to Time, Hannah does that Tillich's spouse was leaving him for his best friend) so this rather reinforces the previous suggestion. Vorbee ( talk) 19:19, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
This article says that Tillich taught undergraduates after becoming Professor at Harvard because Harvard did not have a Department of Religious Studies for them. Wording it in this way makes it sound contradictory, and if what this article really means is that Tillich was the first Professor of Religious Studies at Harvard, this could be pointed out. Vorbee ( talk) 15:57, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
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I am sure I have read that Tillich's reliance on idealism implies pantheism. If this is so, he could be put in the category "pantheism". Vorbee ( talk) 19:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
The box in the top-right-corner of this article mentions "Notable ideas" of Tillich. I wonder whether this list should include the method of correlation. Vorbee ( talk) 19:24, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
This article has a paragraph in which "Systematic Theology" is in italics, then "The Courage to Be" is in italics, and then says the latter is his masterpiece. I have always thought that it was "Systematic Theology" that was seen as his masterpiece. Vorbee ( talk) 19:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
This article mentions "The Protestant Era". Was this book about the Reformation? If so, this could go in the article. Vorbee ( talk) 09:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I am sure that I once read in a dictionary of Christianity that the strongest criticism of Tillich are his reliance on idealism that implies pantheism and belief in a personal God, and his failure to grasp the sola Scriptura principle of the Protestant tradition in which he stood. Vorbee ( talk) 09:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Paul Tillich was in the service of the Allies against his own country during world war two as a propagandist. I think this is notable: https://archive.org/details/WarTimeRadioAddressesAgainstNaziGermanyPaulTillich/page/n20 -- 105.0.7.221 ( talk) 00:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
The opening characterization of Tillich as a “German-American Christian existentialist philosopher and Lutheran Protestant theologian” misrepresents him. He was, in his defining years, first a theologian and then, in a secondary way, a philosopher. His list of published works demonstrates that "theologian" should go first.
Also, while he had a Lutheran upbringing and ordination, none of his books expound Lutheran confessional theology except as an item in A History of Christian Thought. He rather vigorously did claim the mantle of Protestant.
I propose revising the description thus: “…was a German-American Protestant theologian and Christian existentialist philosopher."
His Lutheran background is well-explained in the biography section. Bookman1968 ( talk) 12:34, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, YTKJ ( talk) 20:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
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page archived if only to provide a moment's peace from the relentless screeds. saul tillich, why not just start a freaking blog somewhere. you aren't interested in writing an encyclopedia, you're interested in promulgating your views. that's just what blogs are for. they're great! even i have one! Anastrophe ( talk) 04:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The article’s “Theology” section pretends to explain, but the author (Jonalexdeval) is merely paraphrasing statements he himself doesn’t understand. At the same time, in referring to “the norm,” which is “Jesus as the Christ,” the author misleads his readers in four ways:
As the article now stands, it is mostly unintelligible gibberish, meaningless abstraction. Take this pair of sentences: “It is important to remember that, for Tillich, no formulation of the question [a question that the method of correlation answers] can contradict the theological answer. This is because the Christian message claims, a priori, that the logos ‘who became flesh’ is also the universal logos of the Greeks.” Don’t you see the non sequitur? How does either (a) identifying the Greek Logos with God or (b) having God become incarnated as a man make it impossible for a question to contradict a theological answer, assuming contradiction really is impossible? Taken literally, those are two unrelated assertions. The author is claiming, thoughtlessly and without comprehension (just paraphrasing what either McKelway or Tillich said), that if God is not or was not also the Logos, or else was not incarnated, a question COULD contradict the theological answer.
The author pretends to explain but clearly doesn’t understand what Tillich means in the two sentences, taken from another source, that he paraphrases. He is taking the words literally, whereas they have no literal meaning. What does it mean for a question to contradict its answer? How does God’s being the Logos prevent such contradiction? Taken literally, the words are unadulterated nonsense. Tillich is using his private symbolic language. To those who understand this symbolic language, the sentences do make sense. But I challenge the author (and his friends) to explain, by giving a nontheological example of a Q and its A, (1) what it means for a question to “contradict” an answer and (2) how, if “the Logos became flesh” (Jn. 1:14), does it become impossible for a question to contradict an answer. Not even the author can explain either (1) or (2), so what we have is nonsense, gibberish. (Only those who know what “question” and “answer” symbolize, what “contradict” means in this context, and why “Jesus as the Christ” must be “the norm,” can turn nonsense into sense.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saul Tillich (talk • contribs) 02:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason your paraphrased summary of what Tillich wrote is nonsensical is that it misrepresents what Tillich wrote. You claim Tillich said this: “It is important to remember that, for Tillich, no formulation of the question can contradict the theological answer. This is because the Christian message claims, a priori, that the logos ‘who became flesh’ is also the universal logos of the Greeks.” But Tillich actually said that no philosophy (not “no question”) based on the Greek logos can contradict the logos of John 1:14 (meaning a philosophy–not an “answer”-- based on John 1:14). The words “question” and “answer” do not appear in the quotation that follows; neither does “because” or its equivalent.
Here, from page 28 of ST, vol. 1, is what Tillich actually wrote: “The Christian claim that the logos who has become concrete in Jesus as the Christ [John 1:14] is at the same time the universal [Greek] logos includes the claim that wherever the logos is at work it agrees with the Christian message. No philosophy which is obedient to the universal [Greek] logos can contradict [a philosophy based on] the concrete logos [John 1:14], the Logos ‘who became flesh’.” The implicit reason the two philosophies can’t conflict is that the Greek logos and the Christian logos (God) are the same.
Had you understood what Tillich means by an “apologetic” theology you might have avoided turning Tillich’s thought into nonsense. An apologetic theology is a proselytizing theology. More specifically, it is a theology in which the proselytizer says to the person being recruited, “Our God is your God under another name.” Example: “Our God is Allah under a different name, so you can become a Christian.” When Paul and the author of the gospel of John proselytized in the Hellenistic (culturally Greek) world, they told the Hellenists that they could become Christians because their “God”–not really a god but the metaphysical Logos–was God under another name. “John” claimed that the Greek logos became Jesus. To my knowledge, nobody has ever questioned the obvious fact that, in applying the name “Logos” to God and Jesus, John’s author was not entertaining the idea that there is more than one logos.
In calling his own theology apologetic, Tillich is doing essentially the same thing as Paul and “John.” He is offering a “theology” of humanism to the Christians he would recruit to humanism by giving the name “God” to his metaphorical god, humanity. Christianity’s God becomes the counterpart of the Hellenists’ logos. Tillich is saying, in effect, “you can become humanists because your God of theism and my ‘God above the God of theism’ are both named God.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.51.132 ( talk) 00:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
While this is all very interesting, Wikipedia isn't really the place to debate Tillich's theology. The article should have a simple summary of the various opinions scholars have put forth in the literature, and not take sides. -- Delirium ( talk) 10:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea what is meant by "Ground of Being". That sentence is vague, and since it's apparently one of his big contributions, can we get a better description? Mrsastrochicken ( talk) 15:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems that this section is slightly anachronistic. It is reading Tillich's definition of God as the "Ground of Being" through Marion's "God without Being." Tillich still reads "God" as an ontological designation (not just a semiotic one) [Sys. Theo. 1, 227]. Further the many different definitions listed of God ("Ground of Being", "Abyss", etc) are all pointing to one reality, they are not different attempts at a definition but different attempts at description because God is infinite and different--which is why he says that the analogia entis (analogy of being) is what gives us our only justification for speaking about God (Sys Theo 1, 266). Also, I'm not sure that one can really say Tillich rejects the personal God. For instance, the providence of God is "God directing creativity creating through the freedom of man" (Sys Theo 1, 296). Further, the principle of participation (sys Theo 1, 300) is one that is "personal" by its very nature. Man is "saved" by reuniting with the divine, not in a pantheistic or panentheistic way, but in communion and participation (Sys Theo 3, 48 and 222). He also says that participation only works as love (Sys Theo 3, 48). Reading him as pantheistic or panentheistic turns him into an Eastern mystic, something which did not really interact with Christianity until well after Tillich died. Impleri ( talk) 16:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Impleri, I concur with this assessment, and I have made some modifications to the beginning of this section. I am still working on this section, and welcome comments and criticism. I have authored the first 3 paragraphs almost exclusively. I should like to point out, however, that the analogia entis has a different meaning for Tillich than its medieval employment, and thus in a way does not exactly correlate to what Barth criticizes, in my view. Tillich states in the same place that he does not mean by analogia entis "the property of a questionable natural theology which attempts to gain knowledge of God by drawing conclusions about the infinite from the finite" [STI, 1951, 240]. Instead, he means to say that, once we understand that God is not a being but is the ground of being itself and constitutes its structures, this then means that a description of "a finite segment being" can become the basis of an assertion about the infinite "because that which is infinite is being-itself and because everything participates in being-itself" [ibid, 239]. T's understanding of the symbol, in this way, is more classical than modern: the symbol is a finite reality which participates in the infinite, and thus mediates its reality. Likewise, everything can become a symbol of God in some way, and his understanding of revelation is related. T then does have this in common with Barth's analogia fidei: that the circle of faith or of theology cannot be entered into by means of an analysis of being, but only that in the apologetic moment, such ontological common ground can be found because God is the ground of being, of all being, inside and outside the circle of faith. This is why T's method is a method of correlation: we do not derive Christian symbols from the contemporary situation, but we correlate them. The older meaning of the analogia entis meant that the doctrine of God could be derived from an analysis of the world and then predicating it of God. In my view, this is not what Tillich means (and if he did then I suspect he really would be a pantheist, which would then render impossible the divine-human encounter...), and so I find the statement that T views the analogia entis as the only justification for theology to be in need of clarification. I only say this since this topic might be interesting to include in the article in some fashion, as his relationship to Barth and to traditional Lutheran theology is currently an open debate. -Gamorgan10
The section on "God Above God" refers to God as "Being" but later refers to God as Being and uses a lower-case B. Why is this? Vorbee ( talk) 08:30, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
I would like to see someone who has broad theological knowledge contrast the theological ideas of Paul Tillich with the ideas of other well-known theologians (e.g. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.). For example, although I have read three books by Paul Tillich it is not clear to me where or how he differs from the theology of my own religion (i.e. Roman Catholicism.) I think this because he seldom, if ever, states clearly how he differs from other positions. Perhaps if I read his "Systematic Theology" I'll understand him better? Aletheia ( talk) 17:41, 15 February 2011 (UTC) In his auto-biography, "On the Boundary" he says he could not sit on the boundary between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. He does talk about other boundaries. Vorbee ( talk) 09:22, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm no expert in Tillich's theology (I only have an M.Div), although I greatly appreciate the aspects of his thought that I do understand. That's why, when I read the Wiki article (as it is today, 15/06/11), I didn't have the same objections that many others have on this talk page. I'll leave all that to those who really know what they're talking about.
My only objection is this article presents a sort of one-dimensional view of Tillich. The Paul Tillich of the Wikipedia article comes across as barely human; as an almost disembodied Super Mind. But the greatest thinkers in history (in all disciplines) are also real humans, and Hannah Tillich's memoir fills in the human side of the man. Years ago I was appalled by the sexist ranting of Rollo May, when he fumed against the book (From Time to Time). He claimed she had no right to say any of that, and that had she not been married to Tillich in the first place, she never could have published a book, because who gives a rip about some old German woman anyway? It was as if Hannah had committed some horrible act of blasphemy.
Hannah's book is not a polemic, not an argumentum ad hominem at all. She and Paul were both products of Weimar-era Germany, and sexuality was normal, open, non-taboo (that is, until the Right Wingers took over in 1933). For everything sexual she states about her husband, she states as many or more about herself. E.g., after the first 60 pages or so it's crystal clear to the reader that she was fully bi-sexual, and had no shame or angst about it.
So...why (at the bottom/end) of the article, can't there be a mention of her book; of Paulus the real, living, flesh & blood human? I'm not proposing a salacious cut & paste from only the sexy parts of the book. Nor, a long drawn out portrait that would end up looking like Tillich-trivia. Rather, just a mention of the book's subject matter, a cited reference to Rolo May's objections to it, and a reference to Martin Marty's Christian Century review of the book (from the 26 SEP 1973 edition).
But, if (and it's only an if ; I'm not accusing anyone) this page is dominated by hagiographers--if most of the editors are trying to project a "Saint Paul Tillich,"--then I won't even waste my time, cuz I know it will get deleted a few minutes after posting. (Similar crap has happened before on Wikipdedia; e.g. when Hindu nationalists hijacked the Jeffry J. Kripal article about six years ago).
But I doubt it's that bad on this page; after all From Time to Time is used as an endnote on this article.
Any thoughts on this?
Mahamaya1 ( talk) 14:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Microphage ( talk) 04:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for this. I read "From Time to Time" (on loan from a library) many year ago. I remember a review in a paper said that with the exception of Augustine of Hippo, we know little of the sex lives of theologians. It described the book as a "wounded and wounding account" of Hannah's life with Paul, and noted how, according to the book, Tillich was hopelessly devoted to pornography. However, the review did point out that at times, Hannah appeared to give grounds for her own execution (the review's words, not mine). It also mentioned how Rollo May interpreted Tillich's love affairs as looking for his lost mother. Tillich's mother actually died when Tillich was seventeen, not as young as Tillich liked to make out. If any one has read "From Time to Time" by Hannah Tillich, or "Paulus" by Rollo May more recently than I have done, s/he is welcome to put this information in the article. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 15:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
If there is to be a section about Tillich's personal and family life, then it should take into account the latest scholarship, including the articles written which rather contextualize Hannah Tillich's character assassination book. In particular the essay by René Tillich called "My father, Paul Tillich" in the volume "Spurensuche. Lebens- und Denkwege Paul Tillichs" (2001), sheds important light. 192.76.8.35 ( talk) 13:41, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that there needs to be some mention of the Tillich the man. At the moment the article tends to be almost all about his theology. And the treatment does not need to be salacious nor should it be malicious; but it relevant to know more about his attitudes to sex and sexuality. Research17 ( talk) 16:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I have been a big fan of Tillich since high school, and I also just completed Tillich's "A History of Christian Thought". I came to this article because I was curious about how it was written, and I was immediately struck by the "influenced by" section on the right hand column. Tillich's thought was so rich and comprehensive that we really could include any philosopher or thinker in that list (like Descartes and Fichte are currently), but he himself admits to being most influenced by Augustine and Origen of ancient Christianity, Martin Luther of the Reformation, and Schelling and Martin Kahler in the more modern period. I am slightly correcting this list to recognize the thinkers who Tillich holds close to his heart in "A History of Christian Thought". Fichte and Descartes cannot be considered amongst the several most important philosophical and theological influences in his thought. And while he does mention in his works his respect for many, many thinkers, only the ones he attaches himself to should be mentioned. Uriah is Boss ( talk) 02:22, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I understand that King wrote his doctoral dissertation on Tillich's work. If true, I believe that point is worth mention here. -- Christofurio ( talk) 13:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In the top right corner, there is a table saying spouse/s which is followed by Hannah. In fact, Paul divorced from his first wife and then married Hannah, so the table requires the necessary modification. Vorbee ( talk) 21:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC) In fact, if you read this article carefully it does say that Tillich had been married to Margarethe Wever before he met Hannah (and in From Time to Time, Hannah does that Tillich's spouse was leaving him for his best friend) so this rather reinforces the previous suggestion. Vorbee ( talk) 19:19, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
This article says that Tillich taught undergraduates after becoming Professor at Harvard because Harvard did not have a Department of Religious Studies for them. Wording it in this way makes it sound contradictory, and if what this article really means is that Tillich was the first Professor of Religious Studies at Harvard, this could be pointed out. Vorbee ( talk) 15:57, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
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I am sure I have read that Tillich's reliance on idealism implies pantheism. If this is so, he could be put in the category "pantheism". Vorbee ( talk) 19:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
The box in the top-right-corner of this article mentions "Notable ideas" of Tillich. I wonder whether this list should include the method of correlation. Vorbee ( talk) 19:24, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
This article has a paragraph in which "Systematic Theology" is in italics, then "The Courage to Be" is in italics, and then says the latter is his masterpiece. I have always thought that it was "Systematic Theology" that was seen as his masterpiece. Vorbee ( talk) 19:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
This article mentions "The Protestant Era". Was this book about the Reformation? If so, this could go in the article. Vorbee ( talk) 09:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I am sure that I once read in a dictionary of Christianity that the strongest criticism of Tillich are his reliance on idealism that implies pantheism and belief in a personal God, and his failure to grasp the sola Scriptura principle of the Protestant tradition in which he stood. Vorbee ( talk) 09:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Paul Tillich was in the service of the Allies against his own country during world war two as a propagandist. I think this is notable: https://archive.org/details/WarTimeRadioAddressesAgainstNaziGermanyPaulTillich/page/n20 -- 105.0.7.221 ( talk) 00:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
The opening characterization of Tillich as a “German-American Christian existentialist philosopher and Lutheran Protestant theologian” misrepresents him. He was, in his defining years, first a theologian and then, in a secondary way, a philosopher. His list of published works demonstrates that "theologian" should go first.
Also, while he had a Lutheran upbringing and ordination, none of his books expound Lutheran confessional theology except as an item in A History of Christian Thought. He rather vigorously did claim the mantle of Protestant.
I propose revising the description thus: “…was a German-American Protestant theologian and Christian existentialist philosopher."
His Lutheran background is well-explained in the biography section. Bookman1968 ( talk) 12:34, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, YTKJ ( talk) 20:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)