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Are "People Who Died" by Jim Carroll, "88 Lines About 44 Women" by The Nails and "Pepper" by the Butthole Surfers patter songs? Esquizombi 00:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Esquizombi 20:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I propose Wakko's_America as a piece of modern patter song that should be listed -- aardvarkoffnords 14:53 23 June 2006 (UTC)
As this article has evolved, it has been taken over by its Gilbert & Sullivan content. Gilbert & Sullivan did not invent the patter song. It was a well established form in grand opera before either of them was born. Yet, because "G&S folk" have been largely the ones editing the article, the historical patter song has been pushed to the bottom, and marginalized.
I would suggest a split, with "patter song" describing the form in a general way, and "Gilbert & Sullivan patter song" containing the G&S-specific content. Marc Shepherd 15:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I reformatted the page, as I could tell that it would quickly degenerate into chaos without an alphabetical filing method. I hope no one minds and that it assists users in locating items of interest. If additions are sorted first by composer, then work title, then song title, then the appearance will remain user friendly. Also, please link only the first mention of a composer or work. I hope Gilbert & Sullivan fans do not curse me for filing G&S under Sullivan -- that exception to the conventions of filing always has bothered me. Ivan Velikii 00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the patter songs listed are G&S. Indeed, the Edward German examples listed are derivative of G&S, as are the Lehrer and Animaniacs entries. So, it's not a crowded arena at all. Without the G&S and G&S adaptations, it is a sparse arena with tumbleweeds blowing down main street. :-)
If you look above, I have asked the Wikipedia community for many months to list patter songs by other composers, and they have come up with no new ones. I made requests on the Opera Project talk page for people to post more examples from opera. I think there are probably quite a few more examples out there, but I don't know them. It appears that G&S is the most prominent example of patter song, and the article should acknowledge this fact. -- Ssilvers 13:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Reading the description at the top of the article (with which I generally agree), I feel that an awful lot of those listed here really aren't patter songs at all, and that particularly goes for the majority of the G&S ones. Actually, I'd say that only the Major-General's song and the end of the Nightmare Song, plus the Ruddigore trio, are genuine patter-songs. Simply listing everything sung by the Grossmith character just devalues the term and negates the definition. Neither Don Giovanni's nor Papageno's arias qualify (IMNSHO), either, and the others listed under Opera typically have a fast patter section only at the end.
I have this urge to tweak the definition a bit and then do a lot of slashing and burning here, following Wikipedia's Be Bold tenet, but I thought I'd better see what other people think.-- GuillaumeTell 17:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and fix the opera entries. As for "I've got a little list", it depends how fast it is taken. People often try to rewrite it, and then they sing it slower so you can get the words. But G&S intended it to be taken fast. This is probably the most borderline case still on the G&S list, though. "So go to him and say to him": Again, it should go like the wind. Actually, "When I go out of door" from Patience is also patter. "A private buffoon is a light-hearted loon": This is a classic patter song. It is wall to wall patter, beginning to end. Just say the title fast! -- Ssilvers 19:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Sullivan's metronome markings are in the original manuscripts. The standard scores have metronome markings. If you listen to the earliest recordings, I think you will find the tempi of these numbers quite brisk. I hope others weigh in on your question. I think that either definition is OK, but I'm not sure I agree with "conversational style" from the first definition, or "rhythmic patterns that each have a syllable of text" in the second. I think what it means to say is that there is one syllable per note (no melismas). Regards, -- Ssilvers 21:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone is reading this, I've rewritten the entire article, though retaining a fair amount of what was there before, in order to provide more information about the relationship between G&S and the works of earlier composers. I left the list as it was but turned it into a separate article ( List of patter songs).-- GuillaumeTell 21:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The "moderately fast" ones that are undoubtedly patter songs, but are classic "catalogue" songs (again eliminating the ones that merely have a section with patter) include:
-- Ssilvers 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Point of fact: Gilbert's main interest in Donizetti seems to have been L'elisir d'amore, given: A. Dulcamara, his first successful play. B. An Elixir of Love (short story) and The Sorcerer - the latter of which is particularly notable for roughly following the structure of L'elisir. The Mountebanks burlesques L'elisir in one of its major plots, almost ridiculously so.
Hence, I'd say "Udite, udite, rustici!" is a much better choice of patter song to lead into the next section with. A transition by way of "My name is John Wellington Wells" might be particularly appropriate. Adam Cuerden talk 17:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, GT moved Grossmith back to the previous position which implies that most of the G&S patter songs are of what GT considers the slower kind, rather than the faster kind, which is just wrong. The dividing of the two sections does not work. I'll try it another way, but Grossmith belongs just as much with both sections. -- Ssilvers 21:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
...The description here given is, frankly, somewhat bizarre in parts. Why is so much unlisted? Adam Cuerden talk 01:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that it seems to be common practice for stage productions of G&S operettas to slip the line from Rudigore into other shows as well. I know I've heard it tacked onto songs from Penzance, HMS Pinafore, and the Mikado at least. (It fits in rather well with the Major General song.) It does seem as though Rudigore isn't performed nearly as often as those three, but that line has been reused many times. Since the verse is about patter songs in general, and not at all relevant to the plot of any of the plays, it might deserve a mention here as one that's been reused in other places. I've also heard a slight variation to the text - instead of "and if it is, it doesn't matter", it's "and so it really doesn't matter". Lurlock ( talk) 13:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Major-General, with new and imho great lyrics, performed as it should according to this article: here. I think it should be added as a contemporary example. Joepnl ( talk) 04:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The following has recently been added: "The voice synthesizer Vocaloid can be used to create songs at speeds which are considered impossible for humans to sing, such as The Disappearance of Hatsune Miku (although fans have created covers which equal the original in speed)." The mention of a machine that can sing faster than humans except for those humans who have sung just as fast seems hardly worth mentioning. It has been deleted once and I have deleted it again pending any consensus to the contrary. Tim riley ( talk) 22:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I also fail to understand why my addition was deleted, which referred to a example which was described as a cross-over of patter and rap, which is directly related to the article topic. Especially keeping in mind that some sources relate rap to patter. Staszek Lem ( talk) 04:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Tim. A machine that can sing quicker than a human, apart from those humans who have already sung faster in the first place, is really not worth mentioning in this article. Cassianto talk 19:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
The references are a bit higgledy-piggledy, with some books listed under "Notes" and others under "References". Would anyone mind if I tidied them up, moving the bibliographical info for Balthazar, Fiss, MacDowell and Shaw down to the References section? Tim riley ( talk) 18:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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Are "People Who Died" by Jim Carroll, "88 Lines About 44 Women" by The Nails and "Pepper" by the Butthole Surfers patter songs? Esquizombi 00:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Esquizombi 20:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I propose Wakko's_America as a piece of modern patter song that should be listed -- aardvarkoffnords 14:53 23 June 2006 (UTC)
As this article has evolved, it has been taken over by its Gilbert & Sullivan content. Gilbert & Sullivan did not invent the patter song. It was a well established form in grand opera before either of them was born. Yet, because "G&S folk" have been largely the ones editing the article, the historical patter song has been pushed to the bottom, and marginalized.
I would suggest a split, with "patter song" describing the form in a general way, and "Gilbert & Sullivan patter song" containing the G&S-specific content. Marc Shepherd 15:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I reformatted the page, as I could tell that it would quickly degenerate into chaos without an alphabetical filing method. I hope no one minds and that it assists users in locating items of interest. If additions are sorted first by composer, then work title, then song title, then the appearance will remain user friendly. Also, please link only the first mention of a composer or work. I hope Gilbert & Sullivan fans do not curse me for filing G&S under Sullivan -- that exception to the conventions of filing always has bothered me. Ivan Velikii 00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Most of the patter songs listed are G&S. Indeed, the Edward German examples listed are derivative of G&S, as are the Lehrer and Animaniacs entries. So, it's not a crowded arena at all. Without the G&S and G&S adaptations, it is a sparse arena with tumbleweeds blowing down main street. :-)
If you look above, I have asked the Wikipedia community for many months to list patter songs by other composers, and they have come up with no new ones. I made requests on the Opera Project talk page for people to post more examples from opera. I think there are probably quite a few more examples out there, but I don't know them. It appears that G&S is the most prominent example of patter song, and the article should acknowledge this fact. -- Ssilvers 13:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Reading the description at the top of the article (with which I generally agree), I feel that an awful lot of those listed here really aren't patter songs at all, and that particularly goes for the majority of the G&S ones. Actually, I'd say that only the Major-General's song and the end of the Nightmare Song, plus the Ruddigore trio, are genuine patter-songs. Simply listing everything sung by the Grossmith character just devalues the term and negates the definition. Neither Don Giovanni's nor Papageno's arias qualify (IMNSHO), either, and the others listed under Opera typically have a fast patter section only at the end.
I have this urge to tweak the definition a bit and then do a lot of slashing and burning here, following Wikipedia's Be Bold tenet, but I thought I'd better see what other people think.-- GuillaumeTell 17:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and fix the opera entries. As for "I've got a little list", it depends how fast it is taken. People often try to rewrite it, and then they sing it slower so you can get the words. But G&S intended it to be taken fast. This is probably the most borderline case still on the G&S list, though. "So go to him and say to him": Again, it should go like the wind. Actually, "When I go out of door" from Patience is also patter. "A private buffoon is a light-hearted loon": This is a classic patter song. It is wall to wall patter, beginning to end. Just say the title fast! -- Ssilvers 19:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Sullivan's metronome markings are in the original manuscripts. The standard scores have metronome markings. If you listen to the earliest recordings, I think you will find the tempi of these numbers quite brisk. I hope others weigh in on your question. I think that either definition is OK, but I'm not sure I agree with "conversational style" from the first definition, or "rhythmic patterns that each have a syllable of text" in the second. I think what it means to say is that there is one syllable per note (no melismas). Regards, -- Ssilvers 21:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
In case anyone is reading this, I've rewritten the entire article, though retaining a fair amount of what was there before, in order to provide more information about the relationship between G&S and the works of earlier composers. I left the list as it was but turned it into a separate article ( List of patter songs).-- GuillaumeTell 21:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
The "moderately fast" ones that are undoubtedly patter songs, but are classic "catalogue" songs (again eliminating the ones that merely have a section with patter) include:
-- Ssilvers 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Point of fact: Gilbert's main interest in Donizetti seems to have been L'elisir d'amore, given: A. Dulcamara, his first successful play. B. An Elixir of Love (short story) and The Sorcerer - the latter of which is particularly notable for roughly following the structure of L'elisir. The Mountebanks burlesques L'elisir in one of its major plots, almost ridiculously so.
Hence, I'd say "Udite, udite, rustici!" is a much better choice of patter song to lead into the next section with. A transition by way of "My name is John Wellington Wells" might be particularly appropriate. Adam Cuerden talk 17:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, GT moved Grossmith back to the previous position which implies that most of the G&S patter songs are of what GT considers the slower kind, rather than the faster kind, which is just wrong. The dividing of the two sections does not work. I'll try it another way, but Grossmith belongs just as much with both sections. -- Ssilvers 21:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
...The description here given is, frankly, somewhat bizarre in parts. Why is so much unlisted? Adam Cuerden talk 01:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that it seems to be common practice for stage productions of G&S operettas to slip the line from Rudigore into other shows as well. I know I've heard it tacked onto songs from Penzance, HMS Pinafore, and the Mikado at least. (It fits in rather well with the Major General song.) It does seem as though Rudigore isn't performed nearly as often as those three, but that line has been reused many times. Since the verse is about patter songs in general, and not at all relevant to the plot of any of the plays, it might deserve a mention here as one that's been reused in other places. I've also heard a slight variation to the text - instead of "and if it is, it doesn't matter", it's "and so it really doesn't matter". Lurlock ( talk) 13:39, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Major-General, with new and imho great lyrics, performed as it should according to this article: here. I think it should be added as a contemporary example. Joepnl ( talk) 04:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The following has recently been added: "The voice synthesizer Vocaloid can be used to create songs at speeds which are considered impossible for humans to sing, such as The Disappearance of Hatsune Miku (although fans have created covers which equal the original in speed)." The mention of a machine that can sing faster than humans except for those humans who have sung just as fast seems hardly worth mentioning. It has been deleted once and I have deleted it again pending any consensus to the contrary. Tim riley ( talk) 22:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I also fail to understand why my addition was deleted, which referred to a example which was described as a cross-over of patter and rap, which is directly related to the article topic. Especially keeping in mind that some sources relate rap to patter. Staszek Lem ( talk) 04:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Tim. A machine that can sing quicker than a human, apart from those humans who have already sung faster in the first place, is really not worth mentioning in this article. Cassianto talk 19:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
The references are a bit higgledy-piggledy, with some books listed under "Notes" and others under "References". Would anyone mind if I tidied them up, moving the bibliographical info for Balthazar, Fiss, MacDowell and Shaw down to the References section? Tim riley ( talk) 18:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:08, 3 February 2022 (UTC)