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Thank you. I will be able to contribute more to this discussion in time. FK
I've edited to reflect your info. Hope this works for you but let me know if you have any issues with it. Dogville 23:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Okay, I'm not as up-to-date with WJS as yourself. I will check out the link. Southgate would have publicised the magazine (I have not seen this either but will also check out!) simply - one presumes - because he beleives it worhty of a greater readership. I think this is reasonable human behaviour - shows there is no "sour grapes" on his part. I can categorically state (for what this is worth) that he had no involvement with Issue 36. The postal address appears to be correct. Cheers, Franz K.
Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay; I've been busy. A couple more comments/questions.
Hope to get back to this in a day or so. I think we'll be able to reach a consensus on a different wording fairly easily.
ps we seem to be getting these comments in a rather confusing order; they should be chronological one way or the other, I guess.
-- Dogville 08:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello Dogville. I will try and answer your questions but please put me right if I have omitted any. Firstly the editor of AG -Adrian White - does not own a computer! Correspondence is by letter or telephone. There is therefore no presence on the web. I can supply you with their post box address if that would be of any use. The magazine aims to come out annually therefore it has been three years since Troy Southgate's involvement. I appreciate the need for accurate (published) sources (even if inaccurate!) but surely as there is no connection now with the Cercle/New Right then it can be ammended as an historical connection. WJS is not connected with the New Right though (I believe) he was connected with Troy Southgate in the past. Secondly re the Taking Liberties issue of Third Way - I think the point needs to be made that there was an article analysing and criticising Griffin's piece but that Griffin's piece was indeed included on the basis of civil liberties (of free expression). If I can help further please let me know, thank you for being sensitive in your response and please indicate if either ammendments/changes or ommittance to the above two sections are in order. I will now go to the AG site which I have not done previously (perhaps I should but I didn't know it existed - no excuse!). Thank you, Franz Kafka
I edited the page on Patrick Harrington re Alternative Green after talking to and corresponding with the editor. When I mentioned Cercle de la rose noire he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. When I mentioned the Troy Southgate connection he explained that following Richard Hunt's stroke there was an editorial board which edited two issues. I don't think this was to Richard Hunt's liking (but this I cannot be sure) - Adrian White, the current editor, has edited ever since (three years). Therefore in any meanigful and contemporay way there is no connection with the Cercle... site.
Further - re the issue from Third Way on Taking Liberties - I think it is important to show that that very issue contained a companion article to Griffin's that both analysed and critiqued his piece. This is factual - evidence is the magazine itself!
I'm not sure how all this works so I hope my words are read and treated sensitively.
Thank you. If I am to use a "name" in this discussion let it be Franz Kafka.
Well, hello then Franz. Thanks for the information. One problem is that technically Wikipedia rules only allow info with a published source -- so for example if the NY Times says someone was born in 1958 and the person himself tells you it was actually 1957, you can't correct that unless you can get the NY Times or someone else to publish the right info first. (This is the "no original research" rule, and it's because if unsourced info was allowed to stand it would be even harder to work out what's true on here.)
None of this would be a problem if Alternative Green wasn't so hard to track down. As I say, I've tried and failed to find a presence for it online, and failed to find it in almost any university library. Can you point me to a source for the magazine?
I don't quite understand the 3 year gap thing, though -- the Harrington interview was published in issue 36 (apparently), only 3 issues after the one which is cited on article on Alternative Green itself as having the Cercle (now New Right, it transpires) members on the board. How regularly is AG published? Indeed, the guy who interviewed Harrington (Wayne John Sturgeon) is on record as being part of the Southgate NRF/Cercle/New Right crew, so even if the magazine is now a different thing the association is there in the interview itself.
By the way, once we sort this out you may want to look at correcting the info on Alternative Green's own page. But some source for the magazine (library/website) would be a very helpful step. Dogville 19:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Removed two chatty parentheticals by 80.225.11.193:
This may be true but we need a source, given that three of the 4 members cited on the editorial board page in issue 33 (3 before the issue that published the Harrington interview) were also credited on Rose Noire's website. It's no doubt coincidental that that website was deleted in its entirety yesterday. See Cercle de la rose noire article for details.
Note also that the author of the interview with Pat Harrington, Wayne John Sturgeon, was not only credited on the Rose Noire website, but was author of many interviews with Troy Southgate, including on the now-defunct National Revolutionary Front website (see article for links to archive).
Edited article to reflect this claim.
As 80.225.11.193 is so well informed on the subject (s)he might have added for the record who the editor of Alternative Green is. Dogville 21:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The following para has now been inserted twice:
I've removed it twice because (i) 'respected' is NPOV; (ii) all this constitutes is the journalist's opinion re the reality of PH's ideological transformation. Opinion is no use here; we could doubtless come up with quotes from plenty of people who believe the same thing; and plenty of others who think he is presenting the same old wine in new bottles. PH's apparent ideological journey is certainly relevant and of interest but is better documented by examining and giving context to his own statements (eg in the Green Anarchist interview) than by listing people that do and don't believe him without explaining their qualifications to make such judgements or the basis on which they do.
Dogville 15:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Make that three times. Dogville 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Message from a supporter of the Way in response
I've listened to your argument and you've convinced me. I shall not reinsert!
Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 20 to Apr 26 2004, kept as consensus was not reached. Discussion:
Page was created by user:dissidentcongress who, based on other things (c.f. Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress and MediaWiki:VfD-Populist Party UK) appears to be a vandal who is updating pages for either vanity or publicity reasons. No evidence that Harrington is a major figure in any way, shape, or form. Snowspinner 22:25, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
End discussion
I have heard that PH has Irish hertigage, can anyone confirm or deny? Vintagekits 03:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
He is of Irish extraction (as is confirmed in his election address for the Vauxhall consituency where he stood as an Official NF candidate in the 80s). I have heard suggestions that he is related to an IRA leader of the 50s and has a lot of Irish relatives in both North and South. He tried to prevent NF demonstrations against Bloody Sunday marches on the basis that it played into establishment hands of playing one off against another. According to one person who I know who met him he seems to favour a Republican Sinn Fein line of a federal Ireland (within a United, reformed EU in his case). He is however sympathetic to the Protestant community seeing them as another rebel tradition gone down the wrong path. Some ex-NFers I know find him frightening, fanatical and distinctly off-message - Red Dawn
I understand that Patrick Harrington is a wikipedia editor. Which of you guys is it, then?-- Streona ( talk) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Paddy is actually Doublethink64 and Voltaire was a hypocrite. Furthermore I believe that all of my edits to substantive articles have been fair, even sympathetic to the very real problems that BNP members face in employment, unless you can show otherwise. Nonetheless the fact that they are represented by Pat Harrington and Lee Barnes probably adds to their difficulties. Keep it up,lads.-- Streona ( talk) 12:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
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The description of Harrington as far-right appears to be based on sources dating from many years back. Looking at these sources they don't explain why this description was appropriate even then. As the article indicates there has been a pattern of Harrington's views moving away from not just the far-right but the right. His latest positions appear to me to be a form of co-operative Socialism. I've also noted objections to the use of sources from Hope Not Hate on the basis that it is registered with the Electoral Commission as a campaigning organization and thus should not be relied on as a neutral source. May I ask that those putting in the description of far-right justify this on current sources and explain what views he currently holds that justify them in describing him in this way? Please also explain why Hope Not Hate should be treated as a neutral and reliable source to describe the politics of those it campaigns against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustifiedRage ( talk • contribs) 14:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Patrick Harrington should become a disambiguation page. There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, certainly not this article.
So, what should the disambiguated name for this article become? Andy Dingley ( talk) 12:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Emeraude, what does the "Linkages" source say about Harrington? I note that the other two sources, aside from plainly not being suitable as reliable sources for this purpose, do not actually describe Harrington as far-right. — Emufarmers( T/ C) 04:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I note that the "Linkages" source does not contain any references to back up what it claims in the section you quote. Are there references in the original? If so could you provide these references so that we can see what the evidence/justification is. For example is there a reference to show that Third Way has ever backed segregation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Emeraude, I don't expect you to post the whole book but simply tell us if the reference you quote actually backs up any of the statements it makes with the evidence itself. If it does then I've asked that you give details. I kind of assume from your rather defensive response that the claims your source makes are not referenced. Am I right? I'm also aware that a belief in multi-culturalism rather than segregation does not necessarily mean that you are not far-right. It does, undermine the credibility and reliability of your source material that it makes the assertion that the Third Way is in favour of racial segregation but when asked you are unable to provide any statement from that group indicating that this is so. Perhaps you could tell me what evidence there is that Third Way is far-right in respect of other policies (rather than just historically having emerged from the 'far-right'). It seems to me that at present you are failing to make a persuasive argument that Third Way or Harrington is currently 'far-right' but I want to explore this fully with you and give you every opportunity to argue your case. To this end can I ask that you respond directly to the questions I am putting to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston ( talk • contribs) 14:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Thank you. I will be able to contribute more to this discussion in time. FK
I've edited to reflect your info. Hope this works for you but let me know if you have any issues with it. Dogville 23:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Okay, I'm not as up-to-date with WJS as yourself. I will check out the link. Southgate would have publicised the magazine (I have not seen this either but will also check out!) simply - one presumes - because he beleives it worhty of a greater readership. I think this is reasonable human behaviour - shows there is no "sour grapes" on his part. I can categorically state (for what this is worth) that he had no involvement with Issue 36. The postal address appears to be correct. Cheers, Franz K.
Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay; I've been busy. A couple more comments/questions.
Hope to get back to this in a day or so. I think we'll be able to reach a consensus on a different wording fairly easily.
ps we seem to be getting these comments in a rather confusing order; they should be chronological one way or the other, I guess.
-- Dogville 08:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello Dogville. I will try and answer your questions but please put me right if I have omitted any. Firstly the editor of AG -Adrian White - does not own a computer! Correspondence is by letter or telephone. There is therefore no presence on the web. I can supply you with their post box address if that would be of any use. The magazine aims to come out annually therefore it has been three years since Troy Southgate's involvement. I appreciate the need for accurate (published) sources (even if inaccurate!) but surely as there is no connection now with the Cercle/New Right then it can be ammended as an historical connection. WJS is not connected with the New Right though (I believe) he was connected with Troy Southgate in the past. Secondly re the Taking Liberties issue of Third Way - I think the point needs to be made that there was an article analysing and criticising Griffin's piece but that Griffin's piece was indeed included on the basis of civil liberties (of free expression). If I can help further please let me know, thank you for being sensitive in your response and please indicate if either ammendments/changes or ommittance to the above two sections are in order. I will now go to the AG site which I have not done previously (perhaps I should but I didn't know it existed - no excuse!). Thank you, Franz Kafka
I edited the page on Patrick Harrington re Alternative Green after talking to and corresponding with the editor. When I mentioned Cercle de la rose noire he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. When I mentioned the Troy Southgate connection he explained that following Richard Hunt's stroke there was an editorial board which edited two issues. I don't think this was to Richard Hunt's liking (but this I cannot be sure) - Adrian White, the current editor, has edited ever since (three years). Therefore in any meanigful and contemporay way there is no connection with the Cercle... site.
Further - re the issue from Third Way on Taking Liberties - I think it is important to show that that very issue contained a companion article to Griffin's that both analysed and critiqued his piece. This is factual - evidence is the magazine itself!
I'm not sure how all this works so I hope my words are read and treated sensitively.
Thank you. If I am to use a "name" in this discussion let it be Franz Kafka.
Well, hello then Franz. Thanks for the information. One problem is that technically Wikipedia rules only allow info with a published source -- so for example if the NY Times says someone was born in 1958 and the person himself tells you it was actually 1957, you can't correct that unless you can get the NY Times or someone else to publish the right info first. (This is the "no original research" rule, and it's because if unsourced info was allowed to stand it would be even harder to work out what's true on here.)
None of this would be a problem if Alternative Green wasn't so hard to track down. As I say, I've tried and failed to find a presence for it online, and failed to find it in almost any university library. Can you point me to a source for the magazine?
I don't quite understand the 3 year gap thing, though -- the Harrington interview was published in issue 36 (apparently), only 3 issues after the one which is cited on article on Alternative Green itself as having the Cercle (now New Right, it transpires) members on the board. How regularly is AG published? Indeed, the guy who interviewed Harrington (Wayne John Sturgeon) is on record as being part of the Southgate NRF/Cercle/New Right crew, so even if the magazine is now a different thing the association is there in the interview itself.
By the way, once we sort this out you may want to look at correcting the info on Alternative Green's own page. But some source for the magazine (library/website) would be a very helpful step. Dogville 19:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Removed two chatty parentheticals by 80.225.11.193:
This may be true but we need a source, given that three of the 4 members cited on the editorial board page in issue 33 (3 before the issue that published the Harrington interview) were also credited on Rose Noire's website. It's no doubt coincidental that that website was deleted in its entirety yesterday. See Cercle de la rose noire article for details.
Note also that the author of the interview with Pat Harrington, Wayne John Sturgeon, was not only credited on the Rose Noire website, but was author of many interviews with Troy Southgate, including on the now-defunct National Revolutionary Front website (see article for links to archive).
Edited article to reflect this claim.
As 80.225.11.193 is so well informed on the subject (s)he might have added for the record who the editor of Alternative Green is. Dogville 21:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The following para has now been inserted twice:
I've removed it twice because (i) 'respected' is NPOV; (ii) all this constitutes is the journalist's opinion re the reality of PH's ideological transformation. Opinion is no use here; we could doubtless come up with quotes from plenty of people who believe the same thing; and plenty of others who think he is presenting the same old wine in new bottles. PH's apparent ideological journey is certainly relevant and of interest but is better documented by examining and giving context to his own statements (eg in the Green Anarchist interview) than by listing people that do and don't believe him without explaining their qualifications to make such judgements or the basis on which they do.
Dogville 15:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Make that three times. Dogville 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Message from a supporter of the Way in response
I've listened to your argument and you've convinced me. I shall not reinsert!
Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 20 to Apr 26 2004, kept as consensus was not reached. Discussion:
Page was created by user:dissidentcongress who, based on other things (c.f. Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress and MediaWiki:VfD-Populist Party UK) appears to be a vandal who is updating pages for either vanity or publicity reasons. No evidence that Harrington is a major figure in any way, shape, or form. Snowspinner 22:25, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
End discussion
I have heard that PH has Irish hertigage, can anyone confirm or deny? Vintagekits 03:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
He is of Irish extraction (as is confirmed in his election address for the Vauxhall consituency where he stood as an Official NF candidate in the 80s). I have heard suggestions that he is related to an IRA leader of the 50s and has a lot of Irish relatives in both North and South. He tried to prevent NF demonstrations against Bloody Sunday marches on the basis that it played into establishment hands of playing one off against another. According to one person who I know who met him he seems to favour a Republican Sinn Fein line of a federal Ireland (within a United, reformed EU in his case). He is however sympathetic to the Protestant community seeing them as another rebel tradition gone down the wrong path. Some ex-NFers I know find him frightening, fanatical and distinctly off-message - Red Dawn
I understand that Patrick Harrington is a wikipedia editor. Which of you guys is it, then?-- Streona ( talk) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Paddy is actually Doublethink64 and Voltaire was a hypocrite. Furthermore I believe that all of my edits to substantive articles have been fair, even sympathetic to the very real problems that BNP members face in employment, unless you can show otherwise. Nonetheless the fact that they are represented by Pat Harrington and Lee Barnes probably adds to their difficulties. Keep it up,lads.-- Streona ( talk) 12:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Patrick Harrington. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The description of Harrington as far-right appears to be based on sources dating from many years back. Looking at these sources they don't explain why this description was appropriate even then. As the article indicates there has been a pattern of Harrington's views moving away from not just the far-right but the right. His latest positions appear to me to be a form of co-operative Socialism. I've also noted objections to the use of sources from Hope Not Hate on the basis that it is registered with the Electoral Commission as a campaigning organization and thus should not be relied on as a neutral source. May I ask that those putting in the description of far-right justify this on current sources and explain what views he currently holds that justify them in describing him in this way? Please also explain why Hope Not Hate should be treated as a neutral and reliable source to describe the politics of those it campaigns against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustifiedRage ( talk • contribs) 14:36, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Patrick Harrington should become a disambiguation page. There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, certainly not this article.
So, what should the disambiguated name for this article become? Andy Dingley ( talk) 12:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Emeraude, what does the "Linkages" source say about Harrington? I note that the other two sources, aside from plainly not being suitable as reliable sources for this purpose, do not actually describe Harrington as far-right. — Emufarmers( T/ C) 04:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
I note that the "Linkages" source does not contain any references to back up what it claims in the section you quote. Are there references in the original? If so could you provide these references so that we can see what the evidence/justification is. For example is there a reference to show that Third Way has ever backed segregation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Emeraude, I don't expect you to post the whole book but simply tell us if the reference you quote actually backs up any of the statements it makes with the evidence itself. If it does then I've asked that you give details. I kind of assume from your rather defensive response that the claims your source makes are not referenced. Am I right? I'm also aware that a belief in multi-culturalism rather than segregation does not necessarily mean that you are not far-right. It does, undermine the credibility and reliability of your source material that it makes the assertion that the Third Way is in favour of racial segregation but when asked you are unable to provide any statement from that group indicating that this is so. Perhaps you could tell me what evidence there is that Third Way is far-right in respect of other policies (rather than just historically having emerged from the 'far-right'). It seems to me that at present you are failing to make a persuasive argument that Third Way or Harrington is currently 'far-right' but I want to explore this fully with you and give you every opportunity to argue your case. To this end can I ask that you respond directly to the questions I am putting to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brookton Preston ( talk • contribs) 14:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)