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Is there any part of the paternal age effect that belongs in Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anniepema ( talk • contribs)
Large parts of this page are copied/pasted from this link: http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new33-32/graduate.htm
Article claims that at least one X-linked condition is influenced by paternal age; no source cited for this questionable claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.135.176 ( talk) 23:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
as far as i can tell, hemophilia is a genetic disorder that's inherited through two recessive genes. How the age of the father affects this, i don't know. How would his age affect a gene he had in his DNA from birth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 ( talk) 19:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
de novo mutations increase with advancing paternal age —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.145.79.132 ( talk) 03:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The tone of this article is strange for a medical article. Something like this "If my son or daughter was to ask..." isn't very scientific. Bhny ( talk) 20:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
Definition
Clinical implications
Pathophysiology
Wilson.3308 ( talk) 04:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
In the History section of the article, a more developed history of how the Paternal Age Effect was discovered, came about could be included. In the Notable Conditions and Diseases section, many diseases are listed at the bottom without explanation. If enough information is available, more common conditions and diseases should be elaborated on, namely cataracts, heart defects, hemophilia, Klinefelter's Syndrome. Go more in-depth in the Semen & Sperm Abnormalities section, taking more about the actual studies that were preformed and the results they had. Also include aneuploidy as potential abnormality.
RASopathies such as achondroplasia and Noonan are not mentioned.
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
Refs need to be improved per WP:MEDRS. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 06:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The two subsections on "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" and "Fertility" are not really paternal age effects, in the sense that these two effects relate primarily to the father, not to the offspring. Delete or move to some other more appropriate Wiki article? Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.88 ( talk) 09:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Good morning Doc James. Today you slimmed down the article considerably by replacing detailed references with summary statements, and by restricting the definition of "paternal age effect" to a health problem rather than a general biological effect (see definition in the first sentence).
I can see the advantage in this new format for a time-pressed medical practitioner (this makes the Wiki-page a quick-reference source), but it is now less useful for the researcher trying to enter this increasingly active field of research. And there is nearly a complete lack of quantification - is the risk 1 percent? 40 percent? Who knows. The disappointed reader needs to return to PubMed, which undermines the purpose of Wikipedia, methinks.
I am not suggesting you revert things now, but please do not discourage future editors from adding some more flesh on the bones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 ( talk) 11:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I reverted Ozzie10aaaa's changes because in several cases he removed dated references (such as a 2003 review) while leaving the associated claim, now unreferenced. If all references are removed, the claim should also be removed. If not, a 2003 review is better than no reference at all. KateWishing ( talk) 15:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Doc James and Ozzie:
I am concerned by Ozzie10aaaa's method of adding references, which seems to involve searching related words on Google Books. Often, the results are only vaguely related to the article text. Here are examples from his recent edits, with unsupported text bolded:
Article text | Source text | Source link |
---|---|---|
"Such effects can relate to miscarriage risk, birthweight, congenital disorders and health-related conditions including mortality and longevity, or risk of psychological outcomes." | "[Advanced paternal age is] associated with chromosomal aberrations, low birth weight, and congenital malformations [...] schizophrenia" | [4] |
"Some classify the paternal age effect as one of two different types. One effect is directly related to advanced paternal age and autosomal mutations in the offspring. The other effect is an indirect effect in relation to mutations on the X chromosome which are passed to daughters who are then at risk for having sons with X-linked diseases" | "The changes will not be quite as large for autosomal-dominant rare conditions with a paternal age effect as for numeric chromosome aberrations, the paternal age effect on dominant and X-linked mutation rates being smaller than the effect of maternal age age on incidence of numeric chromosomal anomalies." | [5] |
"Later age at parenthood is associated with a more stable family environment, higher socio-economic position, higher income and better living conditions, as well as better parenting practices, but it is more or less uncertain whether these entities are effects of advanced parental age, are contributors to advanced parental age, or common effects of a certain state such as personality type." | "Research has demonstrated an inverse relationship between maternal age and child maltreatment. [...] Youthful parenting is intertwined with other factors. For example, less positive parental nurturing and discipline were seen in mothers who were younger, who had more than one child living at home, who were single, who had a lower level of educational attainment." | [6] |
KateWishing ( talk) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
May 2015 [8] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Doc James,
On 28 May 2015 you removed the diabetes subsection (which cited research up to 2005), and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. I have now looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report I cannot access). As you made the change, can you please access those two papers and provide the risk factors mentioned there, if they exist? I would like to see the information included in the Wiki article. My suspicions/concerns are that (a) the textbook you cite is not a useful reference in this instance and (b) the weight of evidence suggests that there is potentially no paternal age effect for diabetes type I, and therefore the Wiki article as it stands is medically misleading. To underline point (b), see the Lammi et al 2007 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943268) which finds no paternal age effect for diabetes type I.
For your convenience, here is the section as it was before your replacement on 28 May 2015:
(now moved to article page)
Although children with older mothers are more likely to have older fathers, there is no clear association between paternal age at delivery and type 1 diabetes (10,11,19,28,34)." This 2011 diabetes textbook states results for paternal age have been inconsistent. So the current wording of "possible risk factor" is accurate, but should probably reflect more of the uncertainty in the literature. KateWishing ( talk) 14:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi again Doc James, On 28 May 2015 you removed the "Diabetes" subsection, and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. As mentioned above, I looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report which also contains no mention of paternal age). Thus the 2010 book reference is a "fake" with regards to diabetes and the paternal age effect. In case you cannot access the Baan et al. 2005 report yourself, I am pasting the contents below, so you can see its irrelevance for yourself.
I am therefore reinstating the old diabetes section, and urge you in future to read references carefully before you cite them on Wikipedia.
Baan et al. 2005 Contents:
Summary 1. Introduction Part I The Chronic Disease Model and diabetes 2. The Chronic Disease Model (CDM) and diabetes 3. Adaptations to the CDM with respect to diabetes Part II Diabetes input data in the CDM 17 4. Incidence, prevalence and mortality of diabetes 17 4.1 Introduction 4.2 The Dismod method 17 4.3 Incidence and prevalence data 18 4.4 Mortality data 5. Diabetes health care utilization, costs and quality of life 29 5.1 Diabetes health care utilization 29 5.2 Diabetes costs 5.3 Diabetes Quality of life 33 Part III Prevention of diabetes 35 6. Risk factors for diabetes incidence and primary prevention 35 6.1 Introduction 6.2 Methods 7. Risk factors for diabetes incidence 39 7.1 Body Mass Index 39 7.2 Physical inactivity 42 7.3 Smoking 7.4 Alcohol 7.5 Combination of risk factors 49 7.6 Conclusion risk factors for diabetes incidence 50 8. Primary prevention 8.1 Lifestyle interventions 51 8.2 Pharmacological interventions 52 8.3 Primary prevention conclusions 53 Part IV Prevention of diabetes complications 55 9. Macrovascular complications of diabetes and tertiary prevention 55 9.1 Introduction 9.2 Methods 9.3 Prevalence of macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 59 10. Risk factors for macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 61 10.1 Overweight 10.2 Physical inactivity 65 10.3 Smoking 10.4 Total cholesterol 70 10.5 Hypertension 10.6 HbA1c 11. Tertiary prevention 79 11.1 Interventions to reduce bodyweight 79 11.2 Strict control of blood glucose 80 11.3 Blood pressure control 80 page 6 of 145 RIVM report 260801001 11.4 Lipid control 11.5 Conclusions tertiary prevention 81 12. Discussion and conclusions 83 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 ( talk) 13:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
slow down. i have only just begun to discuss this with the other editors here. The book is a reliable source per WP:MEDRS. Per WP:MEDASSESS (part of MEDRS) we do not conduct peer review on reliable sources. Please read that link and confirm that you understand it. But i do agree that neither of the refs used mention paternal age. I went onto pubmed to look for other secondary sources on paternal age and risk of diabetes. (search is here)
I also went and looked for other books. this one:
discusses many risks of advanced paternal age, but doesn't mention diabetes.
this one has good content. In a section on risks, it says: "Results for birth order and for paternal age have been less consistent" (compared to maternal age) and cites PMID 11509426 and PMID 15660739.
i see that kate had already found the same book, and cited it, along with a primary meta-analysis source. perfect!!! I left that, but removed the PRIMARY. This is a lot of fuss over something that we just can't say much about, as of now. We may be able to say more later, but we cannot much now.
Jytdog (
talk) 17:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC) (amend
Jytdog (
talk)
17:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC))
might want to try this reference , its a Diabetes mellitus type 1 reference under Paternal age and outcome of offspring section [9] (should you have difficulty use CTRL+f for word find) -- Ozzie10aaaa ( talk) 18:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
The following content was added today:
These three genes are thought to be particularly prone to a paternal age effect due to selfish spermatogonial selection, whereby the influence of spermatogonial mutations in older men is enhanced because cells with certain mutations have a selective advantage over other cells (see § DNA mutations). sourced to: {cite journal | author = Goriely A, Wilkie AOM | title ="Selfish spermatogonial selection": a novel mechanism for the association between advanced paternal age and neurodevelopmental disorders | journal = Am. J. Psychiatry | volume = 170 | pages = 599–608 | year = 2013 | doi=10.1176/appi.ajp.2013.12101352 | pmc= 4001324 | pmid = 23639989}}
Two issues with this. First, the "three genes" mentioned in the prior paragraph are FGFR2, FGFR3, and RET. The Goriely source discusses FGFR2, FGFR3, but not RET. Instead, it discusses "several members of the RTK/RAS and associated MAPK (Mitogen Activated Protein Kinase) signalling pathways, such as PTPN11/SHP2 and HRAS".
Second, I think we need to treat the Goriely source gingerly. Although it is classified by both PUBMED and MEDLINE as a "review", if you read it, what they do is review "epidemiological studies that the offspring of older fathers have an increased risk of neurodevelopmental disorders such as schizophrenia and autism" and then "present a novel mechanism that may contribute to this association." - namely, the "selfish spermatogonial selection" hypothesis that is the focus of the edit. The source is PRIMARY for that hypothesis and per MEDRS and NOT (which says that articles should describe "accepted knowledge") we should not include content about hypotheses like this unless they are discussed in review articles - for real. Hope that makes sense. ( Doc James this is exactly like the article we discussed at Finasteride btw.) Jytdog ( talk) 23:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Interestingly, there is a discrepancy between the frequency of these FGFR mutations in sperm DNA and the effect of advanced paternal age on these syndromes, possibly due to selfish spermatogonial selection (32). Although harmful to embryonic development, these mutations might be paradoxically enriched because researchers suggest that they confer a selective advantage to the spermatogonial cells in which they arise (33, 34)." The evidence seems to be thinner for RET, anyway; this primary source says: "
The quantitative data supporting selfish spermatogonial selection have emerged from studies of FGFR2 and FGFR3 mutations, but the same principles are likely to extend to the other PAE disorders." KateWishing ( talk) 23:31, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Off-topic, but what is the section "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" doing in the "Health Effects" section? When a father dies, that is primarily a health outcome for the father, not for the offspring. And if the unknown contributor intended paternal death to be considered a health risk for the child, then suitable literature should be cited. The cited table is informative in its own right, so I do not suggest it should be deleted, but should be put into appropriate context/moved to a new/relevant section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.103.77 ( talk) 11:22, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence "Some research even indicates a longevity advantage for offspring of older fathers. [1]" from the introduction. That research refers to longer telomeres. Longer telomeres aren't the same as longevity and in fact several studies show a mortality increase with paternal age. I hope to edit these in in the near future, but have removed the misleading sentence for now. -- Ruben ( talk) 23:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
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I'm trying to update this page with references I've accumulated in my own research on paternal age. I haven't made many substantial contributions to Wikipedia in the past, but strive to do more in the future, so please tell me where/if I violate tacit or explicit norms. Here's some notes on decisions that I felt I might have to justify.
- In some cases, I have added primary research studies, but only as per WP:MEDRS when the studies are large and fairly conclusive on their own (such as epidemiological studies based on hundreds of thousands or millions). Perhaps more controversially, I've also sometimes done so where older primary sources were already being cited, even if I couldn't identify the reason why they were considered citable. Here, I assumed a tacit norm that these are okay to cite (as they revolved more about non-medical traits and epidemiological work, where single studies are often very large). In these cases, I did not find a review of the evidence, but leaving the older studies and not citing newer studies with sample sizes that were orders of magnitude larger and improved methods did not seem right. It was easier to find reviews for medical traits than for non-medical associations.
- I removed the sentence: "Regarding the increased risk at very young paternal ages, an international study indicates that the DNA mutation rate in very young fathers may also be elevated.[1]"
It's a primary source based on a much weaker method (mutations in a very small, very mutable sequence as opposed to whole genome sequencing and comparing parents and children). There are now multiple studies comparing parents' whole genomes and exomes with their children and they report no such thing (reviewed in Ségurel).
- I removed the sentences: "Because people with longer telomeres are at decreased risk for age-related diseases, higher paternal age may also be associated with certain health benefits.[1] This mechanism may have evolved because the environment of children born to older fathers is likely to have a higher expected age of reproduction.[2]"
This is already mentioned in the Health effects: Life expectancy section and repetitive (and feels in the wrong place) here. There it is placed in more context, namely that several health effects on mortality have been documented in the opposite direction (decreasing longevity with higher paternal age). In the telomere section, I have instead now cited a meta-analysis showing both high heritability and a paternal age effect on telomere length and refer to the problems pointed out by Gratten et al. (genetic propensities for long telomere length may predict parental reproductive timing). Ruben ( talk) 13:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
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The wholescale removal of primary research citations has been counterproductive here, at least where the basic mechanisms are concerned. WPMED requirements (i.e. review/textbook requirements) should apply only to medical research, not to biological mechanisms. The latter research field (paternal age effect mechanisms, not medical outcomes) is too young and too small to have generated meaningful reviews let alone meta-analyses or textbooks.
The simplistic view implied here is that aging men accumulate DNA mutations as a result of DNA replication errors. And that these errors cause medical outcomes in the offspring.
The reality is that we are only just beginning to understand how many paternal DNA mutations are caused by environmental mutagens (and are thus not primarily related to age but to lifestyle etc.), and how many mutations are indeed introduced inevitably during cellular replication (and are thus a true aging hallmark).
The only case where we can distinguish this paternal aging effect from environmental effects is repetitive DNA mutations (telomers, minisatellites, microsatellites) and other insertion/deletion events (duplication leding to copy number variation, deletions), as these mutations can arise ONLY during replication. (The references for this simple fact have been deleted, presumably because they were not reviews).
The Goldmann et al. 2016 Nature paper for example has made this comparison, with revealing results. But again, it is not a review and presumably therefore was deleted.
Please go through the deleted sections and salvage material where appropriate, to make these points clear. Thanks. 65.153.177.214 ( talk) 14:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
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The whole article is full of weasel-words. Its sounds like something important is described but its not. Words like "low" have no meaning outside of the experts that know what is normal. One of the few (only?) exception is this sentence "odds ratio for low birthweight was approximately 1.1 at a paternal age of 20 and approximately 1.2 at a paternal age of 50". That is useful information. But statement such as: (regarding mental illness) "a twofold risk for younger fathers and a threefold risk for fathers >50 years old.". It means absolutely nothing if the base risk is not stated. Is it 3 times 0,00001% or 3 times 10% ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8810:6239:942A:BD72:8D84:E6E1 ( talk) 09:24, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't have time to integrate this at the time, but I think this is a good secondary source for the article: [10]- Pengortm ( talk) 22:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
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Is there any part of the paternal age effect that belongs in Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anniepema ( talk • contribs)
Large parts of this page are copied/pasted from this link: http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new33-32/graduate.htm
Article claims that at least one X-linked condition is influenced by paternal age; no source cited for this questionable claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.135.176 ( talk) 23:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
as far as i can tell, hemophilia is a genetic disorder that's inherited through two recessive genes. How the age of the father affects this, i don't know. How would his age affect a gene he had in his DNA from birth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 ( talk) 19:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
de novo mutations increase with advancing paternal age —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.145.79.132 ( talk) 03:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The tone of this article is strange for a medical article. Something like this "If my son or daughter was to ask..." isn't very scientific. Bhny ( talk) 20:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
Definition
Clinical implications
Pathophysiology
Wilson.3308 ( talk) 04:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
In the History section of the article, a more developed history of how the Paternal Age Effect was discovered, came about could be included. In the Notable Conditions and Diseases section, many diseases are listed at the bottom without explanation. If enough information is available, more common conditions and diseases should be elaborated on, namely cataracts, heart defects, hemophilia, Klinefelter's Syndrome. Go more in-depth in the Semen & Sperm Abnormalities section, taking more about the actual studies that were preformed and the results they had. Also include aneuploidy as potential abnormality.
RASopathies such as achondroplasia and Noonan are not mentioned.
This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment. |
Refs need to be improved per WP:MEDRS. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 06:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The two subsections on "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" and "Fertility" are not really paternal age effects, in the sense that these two effects relate primarily to the father, not to the offspring. Delete or move to some other more appropriate Wiki article? Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.88 ( talk) 09:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Good morning Doc James. Today you slimmed down the article considerably by replacing detailed references with summary statements, and by restricting the definition of "paternal age effect" to a health problem rather than a general biological effect (see definition in the first sentence).
I can see the advantage in this new format for a time-pressed medical practitioner (this makes the Wiki-page a quick-reference source), but it is now less useful for the researcher trying to enter this increasingly active field of research. And there is nearly a complete lack of quantification - is the risk 1 percent? 40 percent? Who knows. The disappointed reader needs to return to PubMed, which undermines the purpose of Wikipedia, methinks.
I am not suggesting you revert things now, but please do not discourage future editors from adding some more flesh on the bones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 ( talk) 11:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I reverted Ozzie10aaaa's changes because in several cases he removed dated references (such as a 2003 review) while leaving the associated claim, now unreferenced. If all references are removed, the claim should also be removed. If not, a 2003 review is better than no reference at all. KateWishing ( talk) 15:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Doc James and Ozzie:
I am concerned by Ozzie10aaaa's method of adding references, which seems to involve searching related words on Google Books. Often, the results are only vaguely related to the article text. Here are examples from his recent edits, with unsupported text bolded:
Article text | Source text | Source link |
---|---|---|
"Such effects can relate to miscarriage risk, birthweight, congenital disorders and health-related conditions including mortality and longevity, or risk of psychological outcomes." | "[Advanced paternal age is] associated with chromosomal aberrations, low birth weight, and congenital malformations [...] schizophrenia" | [4] |
"Some classify the paternal age effect as one of two different types. One effect is directly related to advanced paternal age and autosomal mutations in the offspring. The other effect is an indirect effect in relation to mutations on the X chromosome which are passed to daughters who are then at risk for having sons with X-linked diseases" | "The changes will not be quite as large for autosomal-dominant rare conditions with a paternal age effect as for numeric chromosome aberrations, the paternal age effect on dominant and X-linked mutation rates being smaller than the effect of maternal age age on incidence of numeric chromosomal anomalies." | [5] |
"Later age at parenthood is associated with a more stable family environment, higher socio-economic position, higher income and better living conditions, as well as better parenting practices, but it is more or less uncertain whether these entities are effects of advanced parental age, are contributors to advanced parental age, or common effects of a certain state such as personality type." | "Research has demonstrated an inverse relationship between maternal age and child maltreatment. [...] Youthful parenting is intertwined with other factors. For example, less positive parental nurturing and discipline were seen in mothers who were younger, who had more than one child living at home, who were single, who had a lower level of educational attainment." | [6] |
KateWishing ( talk) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
May 2015 [8] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Doc James,
On 28 May 2015 you removed the diabetes subsection (which cited research up to 2005), and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. I have now looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report I cannot access). As you made the change, can you please access those two papers and provide the risk factors mentioned there, if they exist? I would like to see the information included in the Wiki article. My suspicions/concerns are that (a) the textbook you cite is not a useful reference in this instance and (b) the weight of evidence suggests that there is potentially no paternal age effect for diabetes type I, and therefore the Wiki article as it stands is medically misleading. To underline point (b), see the Lammi et al 2007 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943268) which finds no paternal age effect for diabetes type I.
For your convenience, here is the section as it was before your replacement on 28 May 2015:
(now moved to article page)
Although children with older mothers are more likely to have older fathers, there is no clear association between paternal age at delivery and type 1 diabetes (10,11,19,28,34)." This 2011 diabetes textbook states results for paternal age have been inconsistent. So the current wording of "possible risk factor" is accurate, but should probably reflect more of the uncertainty in the literature. KateWishing ( talk) 14:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi again Doc James, On 28 May 2015 you removed the "Diabetes" subsection, and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. As mentioned above, I looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report which also contains no mention of paternal age). Thus the 2010 book reference is a "fake" with regards to diabetes and the paternal age effect. In case you cannot access the Baan et al. 2005 report yourself, I am pasting the contents below, so you can see its irrelevance for yourself.
I am therefore reinstating the old diabetes section, and urge you in future to read references carefully before you cite them on Wikipedia.
Baan et al. 2005 Contents:
Summary 1. Introduction Part I The Chronic Disease Model and diabetes 2. The Chronic Disease Model (CDM) and diabetes 3. Adaptations to the CDM with respect to diabetes Part II Diabetes input data in the CDM 17 4. Incidence, prevalence and mortality of diabetes 17 4.1 Introduction 4.2 The Dismod method 17 4.3 Incidence and prevalence data 18 4.4 Mortality data 5. Diabetes health care utilization, costs and quality of life 29 5.1 Diabetes health care utilization 29 5.2 Diabetes costs 5.3 Diabetes Quality of life 33 Part III Prevention of diabetes 35 6. Risk factors for diabetes incidence and primary prevention 35 6.1 Introduction 6.2 Methods 7. Risk factors for diabetes incidence 39 7.1 Body Mass Index 39 7.2 Physical inactivity 42 7.3 Smoking 7.4 Alcohol 7.5 Combination of risk factors 49 7.6 Conclusion risk factors for diabetes incidence 50 8. Primary prevention 8.1 Lifestyle interventions 51 8.2 Pharmacological interventions 52 8.3 Primary prevention conclusions 53 Part IV Prevention of diabetes complications 55 9. Macrovascular complications of diabetes and tertiary prevention 55 9.1 Introduction 9.2 Methods 9.3 Prevalence of macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 59 10. Risk factors for macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 61 10.1 Overweight 10.2 Physical inactivity 65 10.3 Smoking 10.4 Total cholesterol 70 10.5 Hypertension 10.6 HbA1c 11. Tertiary prevention 79 11.1 Interventions to reduce bodyweight 79 11.2 Strict control of blood glucose 80 11.3 Blood pressure control 80 page 6 of 145 RIVM report 260801001 11.4 Lipid control 11.5 Conclusions tertiary prevention 81 12. Discussion and conclusions 83 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 ( talk) 13:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
slow down. i have only just begun to discuss this with the other editors here. The book is a reliable source per WP:MEDRS. Per WP:MEDASSESS (part of MEDRS) we do not conduct peer review on reliable sources. Please read that link and confirm that you understand it. But i do agree that neither of the refs used mention paternal age. I went onto pubmed to look for other secondary sources on paternal age and risk of diabetes. (search is here)
I also went and looked for other books. this one:
discusses many risks of advanced paternal age, but doesn't mention diabetes.
this one has good content. In a section on risks, it says: "Results for birth order and for paternal age have been less consistent" (compared to maternal age) and cites PMID 11509426 and PMID 15660739.
i see that kate had already found the same book, and cited it, along with a primary meta-analysis source. perfect!!! I left that, but removed the PRIMARY. This is a lot of fuss over something that we just can't say much about, as of now. We may be able to say more later, but we cannot much now.
Jytdog (
talk) 17:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC) (amend
Jytdog (
talk)
17:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC))
might want to try this reference , its a Diabetes mellitus type 1 reference under Paternal age and outcome of offspring section [9] (should you have difficulty use CTRL+f for word find) -- Ozzie10aaaa ( talk) 18:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
The following content was added today:
These three genes are thought to be particularly prone to a paternal age effect due to selfish spermatogonial selection, whereby the influence of spermatogonial mutations in older men is enhanced because cells with certain mutations have a selective advantage over other cells (see § DNA mutations). sourced to: {cite journal | author = Goriely A, Wilkie AOM | title ="Selfish spermatogonial selection": a novel mechanism for the association between advanced paternal age and neurodevelopmental disorders | journal = Am. J. Psychiatry | volume = 170 | pages = 599–608 | year = 2013 | doi=10.1176/appi.ajp.2013.12101352 | pmc= 4001324 | pmid = 23639989}}
Two issues with this. First, the "three genes" mentioned in the prior paragraph are FGFR2, FGFR3, and RET. The Goriely source discusses FGFR2, FGFR3, but not RET. Instead, it discusses "several members of the RTK/RAS and associated MAPK (Mitogen Activated Protein Kinase) signalling pathways, such as PTPN11/SHP2 and HRAS".
Second, I think we need to treat the Goriely source gingerly. Although it is classified by both PUBMED and MEDLINE as a "review", if you read it, what they do is review "epidemiological studies that the offspring of older fathers have an increased risk of neurodevelopmental disorders such as schizophrenia and autism" and then "present a novel mechanism that may contribute to this association." - namely, the "selfish spermatogonial selection" hypothesis that is the focus of the edit. The source is PRIMARY for that hypothesis and per MEDRS and NOT (which says that articles should describe "accepted knowledge") we should not include content about hypotheses like this unless they are discussed in review articles - for real. Hope that makes sense. ( Doc James this is exactly like the article we discussed at Finasteride btw.) Jytdog ( talk) 23:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Interestingly, there is a discrepancy between the frequency of these FGFR mutations in sperm DNA and the effect of advanced paternal age on these syndromes, possibly due to selfish spermatogonial selection (32). Although harmful to embryonic development, these mutations might be paradoxically enriched because researchers suggest that they confer a selective advantage to the spermatogonial cells in which they arise (33, 34)." The evidence seems to be thinner for RET, anyway; this primary source says: "
The quantitative data supporting selfish spermatogonial selection have emerged from studies of FGFR2 and FGFR3 mutations, but the same principles are likely to extend to the other PAE disorders." KateWishing ( talk) 23:31, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Off-topic, but what is the section "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" doing in the "Health Effects" section? When a father dies, that is primarily a health outcome for the father, not for the offspring. And if the unknown contributor intended paternal death to be considered a health risk for the child, then suitable literature should be cited. The cited table is informative in its own right, so I do not suggest it should be deleted, but should be put into appropriate context/moved to a new/relevant section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.103.77 ( talk) 11:22, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence "Some research even indicates a longevity advantage for offspring of older fathers. [1]" from the introduction. That research refers to longer telomeres. Longer telomeres aren't the same as longevity and in fact several studies show a mortality increase with paternal age. I hope to edit these in in the near future, but have removed the misleading sentence for now. -- Ruben ( talk) 23:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:27, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm trying to update this page with references I've accumulated in my own research on paternal age. I haven't made many substantial contributions to Wikipedia in the past, but strive to do more in the future, so please tell me where/if I violate tacit or explicit norms. Here's some notes on decisions that I felt I might have to justify.
- In some cases, I have added primary research studies, but only as per WP:MEDRS when the studies are large and fairly conclusive on their own (such as epidemiological studies based on hundreds of thousands or millions). Perhaps more controversially, I've also sometimes done so where older primary sources were already being cited, even if I couldn't identify the reason why they were considered citable. Here, I assumed a tacit norm that these are okay to cite (as they revolved more about non-medical traits and epidemiological work, where single studies are often very large). In these cases, I did not find a review of the evidence, but leaving the older studies and not citing newer studies with sample sizes that were orders of magnitude larger and improved methods did not seem right. It was easier to find reviews for medical traits than for non-medical associations.
- I removed the sentence: "Regarding the increased risk at very young paternal ages, an international study indicates that the DNA mutation rate in very young fathers may also be elevated.[1]"
It's a primary source based on a much weaker method (mutations in a very small, very mutable sequence as opposed to whole genome sequencing and comparing parents and children). There are now multiple studies comparing parents' whole genomes and exomes with their children and they report no such thing (reviewed in Ségurel).
- I removed the sentences: "Because people with longer telomeres are at decreased risk for age-related diseases, higher paternal age may also be associated with certain health benefits.[1] This mechanism may have evolved because the environment of children born to older fathers is likely to have a higher expected age of reproduction.[2]"
This is already mentioned in the Health effects: Life expectancy section and repetitive (and feels in the wrong place) here. There it is placed in more context, namely that several health effects on mortality have been documented in the opposite direction (decreasing longevity with higher paternal age). In the telomere section, I have instead now cited a meta-analysis showing both high heritability and a paternal age effect on telomere length and refer to the problems pointed out by Gratten et al. (genetic propensities for long telomere length may predict parental reproductive timing). Ruben ( talk) 13:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
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The wholescale removal of primary research citations has been counterproductive here, at least where the basic mechanisms are concerned. WPMED requirements (i.e. review/textbook requirements) should apply only to medical research, not to biological mechanisms. The latter research field (paternal age effect mechanisms, not medical outcomes) is too young and too small to have generated meaningful reviews let alone meta-analyses or textbooks.
The simplistic view implied here is that aging men accumulate DNA mutations as a result of DNA replication errors. And that these errors cause medical outcomes in the offspring.
The reality is that we are only just beginning to understand how many paternal DNA mutations are caused by environmental mutagens (and are thus not primarily related to age but to lifestyle etc.), and how many mutations are indeed introduced inevitably during cellular replication (and are thus a true aging hallmark).
The only case where we can distinguish this paternal aging effect from environmental effects is repetitive DNA mutations (telomers, minisatellites, microsatellites) and other insertion/deletion events (duplication leding to copy number variation, deletions), as these mutations can arise ONLY during replication. (The references for this simple fact have been deleted, presumably because they were not reviews).
The Goldmann et al. 2016 Nature paper for example has made this comparison, with revealing results. But again, it is not a review and presumably therefore was deleted.
Please go through the deleted sections and salvage material where appropriate, to make these points clear. Thanks. 65.153.177.214 ( talk) 14:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
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The whole article is full of weasel-words. Its sounds like something important is described but its not. Words like "low" have no meaning outside of the experts that know what is normal. One of the few (only?) exception is this sentence "odds ratio for low birthweight was approximately 1.1 at a paternal age of 20 and approximately 1.2 at a paternal age of 50". That is useful information. But statement such as: (regarding mental illness) "a twofold risk for younger fathers and a threefold risk for fathers >50 years old.". It means absolutely nothing if the base risk is not stated. Is it 3 times 0,00001% or 3 times 10% ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2403:6200:8810:6239:942A:BD72:8D84:E6E1 ( talk) 09:24, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't have time to integrate this at the time, but I think this is a good secondary source for the article: [10]- Pengortm ( talk) 22:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)