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While I realise that pasties with a variety of fillings {cheese, chicken, etc.) are available, I submit that no self-respecting Cornishman would regard such pasties as 'Cornish pasties'. Part of the trouble lies in the fact that the Cornish refer to genuine Cornish pasties (made with chuck or skirt steak, potato, swede and onion) as simply 'pasties'; the term 'Cornish pasty' is not used by the Cornish. What a non-Cornish might call a cheese and onion pasty is, in no sense, a Cornish pasty. Sbz5809 19:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be appropriate to list the different types of pasties (Pembrokeshire, Devonshire, Cornish) and to specify the ingredients in each. For exampe, lamb is in Pembrokeshire; this would not normally be in a Cornish pasty, but a true Cornish pasty would always include vegetables as well as meat. If it did not, would it not be a Devonshire pasty? ACEO 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Four Generations of my Cornish family have used salt, pepper and Worcestershire Sauce on the steak... Shop pasties I've had also taste of Worcestershire Sauce - should that be in the fillings section? It's only been around since 1900 but is a main characteristic of a pasty these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.210.118 ( talk) 20:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Just a further comment on this, a day or so later. My mother is a good cook, and I believe she knows quite a bit about cooking. I asked her today about whether Cornish pasties lacked meat or not, and she didn't seem to think that was an essential aspect of it; but she did say that a Cornish pasty traditionally has lamb in it, not some other meat such as beef.
Again, I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm or deny this as a defining characteristic of specifically the Cornish pasty. M.J.E. ( talk) 11:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I have a 1965 edition of a Cornish recipe book, first published by the Cornish Federation of Women's Institutes in 1929. The variations given are as follows; Apple, Broccoli, Chicken, Date, Eggy, Herby, Jam, Mackerel, Meat & Potato (the meat is not specified), Parsley, Pork, Rabbity, Rice, Sour (sorrell) Sauce, Star-Gazing, Turnip, Windy. (This last is a way of using up the remaining pastry by making an empty pasty. When cooked, open flat & put some jam, or cheese & chutney, or anything you like in the halves.) I intend to place all of the recipes in Wikibooks. (Mostly done now) It makes no mention of beef-steak as the meat. (Several recipes go back to the 1700's. And some of them are wonderful! One Saffron cake recipe starts with; "8 & 3/4 lbs of flour, 6 lbs of fruit & 5 lbs of butter &/or lard"... Or a cowslip wine recipe; "Take 50 lbs sugar, add 24 gallons water"...) Dick Holman. User:Archolman 21:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
A note on the reference to figs. Probably not real figs, but the dialect word for raisins, as in Figgie Hobbin/Duff, a variation of the rock-cake or fruit-scone family. Archolman 03:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I did a fairly major rewrite and reorganization of the article. In particular, I added inline references. If anyone feels like helping, we still need a few things:
Drop a line here with any complaints. :) -- dcclark ( talk) 18:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I can see this NYT article has been taken as gospel truth, but I have to say it adds nothing. Firstly - the sweet-savoury "two-course" pasty. This is romantic rubbish - no question about it. No-one I have ever known, including many Cornish born-and-bred women of 80+, has either seen or eaten such a thing. I still haven't seen any evidence that it's possible to make, for reasons I stated in the relevant section above, nor primary evidence that anyone in those distant days had the free time or equipment to make one. Fruit pasties are never cooked for the same length of time as a meat pasty - they just can't be unless you like raw meat or carbonised jam - and no miner's wife would ever have had the time to pre-cook ingredients. No Cornish pasty-seller sells them today, and given the gimmick value - they would if they could! Hettie Merrick's "The Pasty Book" ( Penryn 1995) states that "I have personally not found anything like it actually in use in Cornwall."
The crimping thing - in Merrick's book it is stated that there is no authentic manner in which to crimp a Cornish pasty - you just do whatever you find easiest. The hardest way is to crimp along the top, perhaps this is why many people crimp along the side. She also states that there is much debate over the "correct way", suggesting that there just is no correct way. I also contend that there is no such thing as a "Devon pasty" - this would just be a type of Cornish pasty which happens to be made in Devon. There don't seem to be enough differences between the two to merit it being a separate entity. My grandmother's grandfather was a master baker in Truro at the end of the 1800s, and the method of crimping that was passed down to my grandmother was along the top, no question about it.
But anyway, it's not my article, so feel free to put what you like. I'm not going to wreck it by editing it, but that's what I think. Anyway, any media article which suggests that a Ginster's "pasty" is even pleasant to eat, let alone remotely authentic, is clearly extremely dubious in my opinion. In Cornwall itself you can hardly give them away - they're only made for "export" to England. Bretonbanquet 17:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Surprised the "two course pasty" legend is still being presented here as fact. The Merrick book seems to me to be the best source for pasty history. If I had a copy here I'd edit it myself. I've little doubt that the present existence of such pasties in Cornish pasty shops is just to appeal to tourists, who love this story for some mysterious reason. Why would hungry miners want half their pasty taken up with apple, instead of meat and potato?
As for crimping, my grandmother (82-year-old Cornish lady) agrees that neither top nor side is necessarily right. She says side is faster and thinks that may be why Cornish commercial bakers often do the side, but top seems to be preferred for home use, as juices are less likely to run out the crimp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.123.74 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
@Worm. Nice work on the GA status!
"Other common ingredients include swede (rutabaga) (called turnip in Cornwall) and possibly parsley" -
Swede and turnip are different.
This is just a (confusing) dialect difference. In Cornwall the red skinned root veg with the yellow flesh has always been called turnip (I believe this is also the case in Scotland, and probably elsewhere too). In other parts of the UK this is called swede, and turnip refers to the smaller white fleshed root vegetable (In Cornwall this is called white turnip!). In North America Swede is called Rutabaga but I don't know the provenance - rutabaga is simmilar to the French word for Swede so maybe thats where it came from Mammal4 12:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It is very unhelpful that England has not been mentioned at all in this page, despite the fact that Cornwall is in England, and the Cornish pasty is included on the cuisine section of the article about England. Please could people refrain from changing 'England' to 'United Kingdom', in many places, and acknowledge that the Cornish pasty is an important part of English cuisine in general, not just Cornwall. 82.1.148.215 ( talk) 22:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually - Anyone with sence would put UK if there has to be a mention: It's far more neutral. Many Cornish people consider themselves Cornish, not English and Cornish culture is often regarded as being separate. There is also the political part of teh argument: Cornwall trying to get more of it's own powers similar to Wales. Simply because Cornwall is officially England, that matter is debated; It IS however part of the United Kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 27 April 2010
Devon? Cornwall? Neither? I have dropped this contentious bit. This seems to be shrouded in the mists of time, and is adequately thrashed out, I think, in the body. I don't see the value in keeping it in the infobox when it is in contention. Easily restored if wp:consensus is against the change. - Sinneed 19:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I now see this was discussed previously, immediately above...my apologies. I suggest the change I made already.- Sinneed 20:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I think that this page is bias towards Cornwall. It dosent show all the evidance that the pasty orriginated in Devon. I know there are alot of people (probably from Cornwall) who say that Devoners have no evidence that the pasty originated in Devon (ill imformed people). If you want to know what sources Devoners have, please contact me.( Kinghenrimck ( talk) 18:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
Seeing as the article has the oldest referrencce to the pasty coming from Devon, and several histroic referrences from the rest of England, to have Cornwall as the sole place of origin is not reliable. I have changed the info box to reflect this. Serpren ( talk) 03:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure the stuff set in Mexico is
-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 00:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Whilst this remains pending controversy arose when the British Pie Manufacturer Association voted a product from CHUNK OF DEVON the "Best Cornish Pasty 2009". This caused such a fuss amongst the Cornish producers that CHUNK were banned from entering the 2010 awards and a media storm arose with CHUNK appearing on GMTV and various other radio and tv shows. Some people now suggest that awarding PGI prompts some producers to then become complacent as beaurocracy then determines who makes the best product rather than popular choice. Ironically, in 2010 very few Cornish producers entered the competition and standards were so low that the judges could only find one prize worthy pasty and were, therefore, unable to propose a runner up
This doesn't belong in protected status, it didn't work, and it isn't encyclopedic. Maybe a much briefer bit, located more appropriately?- Sinneed 12:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Re deletion of: "Tradition claims that the pasty was originally made as lunch ('croust' or 'crib' in Cornish dialect) for Cornish tin miners who were unable to return to the surface to eat." The Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed.) has "Food, provisions, light meal, etc." (dialectal) as one of the meanings of "crib" giving several examples including quotations from M. A. Courtney's Glossary (1880) and Rowse's Cornish Childhood (1942). "Crowst" is often explained as a variant of "crust" ((outer layer of bread) so may possibly be a loanword from English to Cornish.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 15:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
While Cornwall is not a country, having "United Kingdom" in the info-box as the place of origin is factually incorrect, the United Kingdom didn't exist when the Pasty was even first recorded in Cornish History, so how can it be its place of origin? Unless it's just where the pasty is generally associated with today, which is still Cornwall primarily. What would be more accurate would be "Cornwall, England" because at the time Cornwall was a part (Or, more accurately, considering Cornwall's distinctiveness then and now, "Administered") of England, and still is (regardless of a few peoples personal opinions, which have no place on this Encyclopaedia). Thank you -- Τασουλα (Shalom!) ( talk) 19:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Has fish ever been used as a filling in the Pasty? It seems strange that it never has. Pastry and fish isn't generally fancied, but certain types of shellfish would seem to fit...I think. Just a random thought I had when looking at the Cornish cuisine article. -- Τασουλα (Shalom!) ( talk) 22:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I see that once again this article is becoming a warring place for people who want to deny that Cornwall is a county in England. Why? One IP editor today states it isn't a county (despite the former article stating that it is) but it is a duchy. Interestingly the lands owned by the Duchy of Cornwall covers a number of counties and half of it is in Devon. I have no objection to the article mentioning the Duchy of Cornwall, but I do strongly object to the constant removal of county status, a fact which is relevant to the article. Obviously related topics have been debated in this article's talk page before, but let's have a sensible discussion instead of reverting to erroneous arguments in edit summaries like "Cornwall is a Duchy - historic fact, so your edit is erroneous." or "You learn your history from Wiki Simple Bob? No wonder you're confused...". (And yes I know I didn't help with my own first edit summary today). -- Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator ( Talk) 22:42, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
@Worm. Thanks for the civic history, & I don't mind at all that you answered :) (I just spotted that I didn't sign this when I posted it) Archolman 21:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
If this article is to go forward to GA, then I really think we should drop some of the how-to stuff. I especially dislike the image gallery used for the two course pasty, and the undue weight that section gives to something that is a relatively minor and very uncommon type of pasty. At most it should have one picture. The images in the previous section showing how a regular pasty are made are fine because they are clear, succinct and add value. -- Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator ( Talk) 08:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty much done on the History and Recipe's section. Need a little more citations, but I trust everyone's happy? Let me know if not Worm TT 12:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Now in for GA. Let's hope this goes well! Worm TT 13:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:35, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: I unlinked tinga and hogen as there are no suitable targets on the disambiguation pages. [2] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: Found and fixed one. [3] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Rest of the review within 24 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Now that I've read this article, I'm fairly hungry. Good job to the contributors here. Would any of you happen to know anything about
bridies such as to improve that article? I've eaten a number of them but apart from recipe books, I'm not sure I could do that article justice.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► (
(⊕)) 01:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
There are still a couple of aspects of pasty-eating by tin miners in this article that owe more to retrospective romanticism than any kind of common sense. They might be moderately sourced but they're still, well, rubbish. These sources just regurgitate the same old fantasy ideas. Dropping pasties down mines to be caught by miners - terrible rubbish. Thousands of feet deep, you only have to stand at the top of an open one to know that they're not straight - you can't drop anything down a mine and expect it not to hit the sides and be smashed to bits. In any case, miners didn't work at the bottom of the main shaft, they worked down side shafts and tunnels at various levels, well out of earshot of the surface. Another thing is the idea of miners holding pasties by the crimp - I've never seen a period photo of anyone holding a pasty by the crimp, and one is hard-pressed to find an old photo of a pasty with a side crimp anyway, regardless of what the Pasty Association will tell you. The postcard image in the article is a good example. All the photos I've seen of miners eating pasties are of them holding one end in a rag or piece of paper and eating the thing end-to-end. The idea of a miner throwing the crust away is also highly unlikely - you're down there, working 8-10 hour shifts in the filth and dark, breathing in untold fumes and poisonous gases, doing extremely dangerous work which will see you dead by 36 (on average) - you're hungry and you're not about to throw away a big chunk of your food. It would be nice to see this crap weeded out or at least tempered with a bit of balance - it's actually pretty insulting to those people who had to do the job. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
I hope this article won't turn into an advert for the group of companies behind the pasty's PGI status. It's important that recipes and suchlike don't state that the only way to make a pasty is their way, i.e. the generic knock-off. The modern pasty firms that make this rubbish have now pushed their recipes and methods of preparation into law, so that the legal definition of the "traditional and correct Cornish pasty" now fits their generic knock-off. If anyone can find a decent reference to state that pasties with minced gristle beef in them are the cheap ersatz pasties most people know them to be, please put it in the article. It's sad that a poor-quality, cheaply-made pasty, churned out by poorly-paid Eastern Europeans on an industrial estate in Helston and sold for £3 at a filling station is now the legally-binding genuine article, but we should try to strike a balance in the article.
Bretonbanquet (
talk) 22:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article:
This isn't historically accurate. Les Merton would appear to be an author and poet, [6] and both the BBC and the Guardian appear to have missed the point that the Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty is a joke, as spotted by the Telegraph [7], the Independent [8] and The Cornish Pasty website [9]. If there were such ancient cave drawings at the Lizard I suspect they would be rather famous! — SMALL JIM 10:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This edit [10] seems like a pretty big revert, and at least in part against prior consensus on this page. Of course, consensus can change. Can we please discuss the long list of changes. As an aside, is it really OK to revert so many changes when they're not vandalism? Cheers, JoeSperrazza ( talk) 16:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The note referred to the difference between commercial & domestic crimping. Side-crimping is quicker for commercial production, because you work to the base of the pasty, instead of picking up two sides & bonding them. Cheers, Dick. Archolman 16:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
That was my note. Trouble is, I can't find the reference. I think it was an on-line article, but wouldn't swear to it. So leave it out until a source can be found. (it is also mentioned on this page, in "Rewrite") Dick Archolman 18:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the question. Could anybody explain me please what is the main difference between a Pasty and an Empanada? How may I distinguish one from the other?-- 189.217.247.66 ( talk) 04:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
The latest bout of edit-warring regarding "England" and "UK" is pathetic and very, very, very old news. This is topped off by someone reverting to their favoured version, then inviting a discussion. Never mind reverting to how the article was when it gained its GA status or anything vaguely sensible like that. The fact is that England, by almost all definitions, is not a country. The country in which Devon and Cornwall are located is the UK. That's what your passport says, that's the country of which Devonians and Cornish people are citizens. This of course does not matter to anyone who just doesn't like that idea. Suggesting that one or other will emerge as a consensus shows an amazing lack of experience in this type of discussion - it won't happen. Weeks and a very long argument later, we'll be nowhere. I suggest the age-old compromise of "England, United Kingdom" as the only suggestion which will remain remotely stable, to appease all the nationalists and also those who are aware of what country they live in. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 19:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
In the absence of any response to those questions, in a few days I will change the infobox field to read "England, UK" in line with the consensus achieved for the text in the lead paragraph. Unless of course, there are any objections or further debate. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 15:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the Cornish or Devon pasty is an 'Oggin'.....Surely it is an 'Oggie"? Oggin is a slang Royal Naval term, or use to be when I was in the RN (Andrew), for the sea! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.65.194.63 ( talk) 14:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
This article does not clarify the real difference between a Cornish pasty, a Devonshire pasty and a Pembrokeshire pasty:
1. A Cornish pasty contains beef and vegetables 2. A Devonshire pasty only contains beef. 3. A Pembrokeshire pasty contains roast lamb and mint sauce. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 23:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Pasties are not exclusive to Cornwall, nor are all pasties shaped like a CP. Pasties are widely eaten in the North of England as well and there are many different shapes and sizes. This article needs a great deal of editing to move away from its Cornish Bias... CrossHouses ( talk) 02:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
While I realise that pasties with a variety of fillings {cheese, chicken, etc.) are available, I submit that no self-respecting Cornishman would regard such pasties as 'Cornish pasties'. Part of the trouble lies in the fact that the Cornish refer to genuine Cornish pasties (made with chuck or skirt steak, potato, swede and onion) as simply 'pasties'; the term 'Cornish pasty' is not used by the Cornish. What a non-Cornish might call a cheese and onion pasty is, in no sense, a Cornish pasty. Sbz5809 19:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be appropriate to list the different types of pasties (Pembrokeshire, Devonshire, Cornish) and to specify the ingredients in each. For exampe, lamb is in Pembrokeshire; this would not normally be in a Cornish pasty, but a true Cornish pasty would always include vegetables as well as meat. If it did not, would it not be a Devonshire pasty? ACEO 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Four Generations of my Cornish family have used salt, pepper and Worcestershire Sauce on the steak... Shop pasties I've had also taste of Worcestershire Sauce - should that be in the fillings section? It's only been around since 1900 but is a main characteristic of a pasty these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.210.118 ( talk) 20:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Just a further comment on this, a day or so later. My mother is a good cook, and I believe she knows quite a bit about cooking. I asked her today about whether Cornish pasties lacked meat or not, and she didn't seem to think that was an essential aspect of it; but she did say that a Cornish pasty traditionally has lamb in it, not some other meat such as beef.
Again, I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm or deny this as a defining characteristic of specifically the Cornish pasty. M.J.E. ( talk) 11:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I have a 1965 edition of a Cornish recipe book, first published by the Cornish Federation of Women's Institutes in 1929. The variations given are as follows; Apple, Broccoli, Chicken, Date, Eggy, Herby, Jam, Mackerel, Meat & Potato (the meat is not specified), Parsley, Pork, Rabbity, Rice, Sour (sorrell) Sauce, Star-Gazing, Turnip, Windy. (This last is a way of using up the remaining pastry by making an empty pasty. When cooked, open flat & put some jam, or cheese & chutney, or anything you like in the halves.) I intend to place all of the recipes in Wikibooks. (Mostly done now) It makes no mention of beef-steak as the meat. (Several recipes go back to the 1700's. And some of them are wonderful! One Saffron cake recipe starts with; "8 & 3/4 lbs of flour, 6 lbs of fruit & 5 lbs of butter &/or lard"... Or a cowslip wine recipe; "Take 50 lbs sugar, add 24 gallons water"...) Dick Holman. User:Archolman 21:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
A note on the reference to figs. Probably not real figs, but the dialect word for raisins, as in Figgie Hobbin/Duff, a variation of the rock-cake or fruit-scone family. Archolman 03:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I did a fairly major rewrite and reorganization of the article. In particular, I added inline references. If anyone feels like helping, we still need a few things:
Drop a line here with any complaints. :) -- dcclark ( talk) 18:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I can see this NYT article has been taken as gospel truth, but I have to say it adds nothing. Firstly - the sweet-savoury "two-course" pasty. This is romantic rubbish - no question about it. No-one I have ever known, including many Cornish born-and-bred women of 80+, has either seen or eaten such a thing. I still haven't seen any evidence that it's possible to make, for reasons I stated in the relevant section above, nor primary evidence that anyone in those distant days had the free time or equipment to make one. Fruit pasties are never cooked for the same length of time as a meat pasty - they just can't be unless you like raw meat or carbonised jam - and no miner's wife would ever have had the time to pre-cook ingredients. No Cornish pasty-seller sells them today, and given the gimmick value - they would if they could! Hettie Merrick's "The Pasty Book" ( Penryn 1995) states that "I have personally not found anything like it actually in use in Cornwall."
The crimping thing - in Merrick's book it is stated that there is no authentic manner in which to crimp a Cornish pasty - you just do whatever you find easiest. The hardest way is to crimp along the top, perhaps this is why many people crimp along the side. She also states that there is much debate over the "correct way", suggesting that there just is no correct way. I also contend that there is no such thing as a "Devon pasty" - this would just be a type of Cornish pasty which happens to be made in Devon. There don't seem to be enough differences between the two to merit it being a separate entity. My grandmother's grandfather was a master baker in Truro at the end of the 1800s, and the method of crimping that was passed down to my grandmother was along the top, no question about it.
But anyway, it's not my article, so feel free to put what you like. I'm not going to wreck it by editing it, but that's what I think. Anyway, any media article which suggests that a Ginster's "pasty" is even pleasant to eat, let alone remotely authentic, is clearly extremely dubious in my opinion. In Cornwall itself you can hardly give them away - they're only made for "export" to England. Bretonbanquet 17:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Surprised the "two course pasty" legend is still being presented here as fact. The Merrick book seems to me to be the best source for pasty history. If I had a copy here I'd edit it myself. I've little doubt that the present existence of such pasties in Cornish pasty shops is just to appeal to tourists, who love this story for some mysterious reason. Why would hungry miners want half their pasty taken up with apple, instead of meat and potato?
As for crimping, my grandmother (82-year-old Cornish lady) agrees that neither top nor side is necessarily right. She says side is faster and thinks that may be why Cornish commercial bakers often do the side, but top seems to be preferred for home use, as juices are less likely to run out the crimp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.123.74 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
@Worm. Nice work on the GA status!
"Other common ingredients include swede (rutabaga) (called turnip in Cornwall) and possibly parsley" -
Swede and turnip are different.
This is just a (confusing) dialect difference. In Cornwall the red skinned root veg with the yellow flesh has always been called turnip (I believe this is also the case in Scotland, and probably elsewhere too). In other parts of the UK this is called swede, and turnip refers to the smaller white fleshed root vegetable (In Cornwall this is called white turnip!). In North America Swede is called Rutabaga but I don't know the provenance - rutabaga is simmilar to the French word for Swede so maybe thats where it came from Mammal4 12:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It is very unhelpful that England has not been mentioned at all in this page, despite the fact that Cornwall is in England, and the Cornish pasty is included on the cuisine section of the article about England. Please could people refrain from changing 'England' to 'United Kingdom', in many places, and acknowledge that the Cornish pasty is an important part of English cuisine in general, not just Cornwall. 82.1.148.215 ( talk) 22:47, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually - Anyone with sence would put UK if there has to be a mention: It's far more neutral. Many Cornish people consider themselves Cornish, not English and Cornish culture is often regarded as being separate. There is also the political part of teh argument: Cornwall trying to get more of it's own powers similar to Wales. Simply because Cornwall is officially England, that matter is debated; It IS however part of the United Kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 27 April 2010
Devon? Cornwall? Neither? I have dropped this contentious bit. This seems to be shrouded in the mists of time, and is adequately thrashed out, I think, in the body. I don't see the value in keeping it in the infobox when it is in contention. Easily restored if wp:consensus is against the change. - Sinneed 19:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I now see this was discussed previously, immediately above...my apologies. I suggest the change I made already.- Sinneed 20:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I think that this page is bias towards Cornwall. It dosent show all the evidance that the pasty orriginated in Devon. I know there are alot of people (probably from Cornwall) who say that Devoners have no evidence that the pasty originated in Devon (ill imformed people). If you want to know what sources Devoners have, please contact me.( Kinghenrimck ( talk) 18:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC))
Seeing as the article has the oldest referrencce to the pasty coming from Devon, and several histroic referrences from the rest of England, to have Cornwall as the sole place of origin is not reliable. I have changed the info box to reflect this. Serpren ( talk) 03:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure the stuff set in Mexico is
-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 00:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Whilst this remains pending controversy arose when the British Pie Manufacturer Association voted a product from CHUNK OF DEVON the "Best Cornish Pasty 2009". This caused such a fuss amongst the Cornish producers that CHUNK were banned from entering the 2010 awards and a media storm arose with CHUNK appearing on GMTV and various other radio and tv shows. Some people now suggest that awarding PGI prompts some producers to then become complacent as beaurocracy then determines who makes the best product rather than popular choice. Ironically, in 2010 very few Cornish producers entered the competition and standards were so low that the judges could only find one prize worthy pasty and were, therefore, unable to propose a runner up
This doesn't belong in protected status, it didn't work, and it isn't encyclopedic. Maybe a much briefer bit, located more appropriately?- Sinneed 12:02, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Re deletion of: "Tradition claims that the pasty was originally made as lunch ('croust' or 'crib' in Cornish dialect) for Cornish tin miners who were unable to return to the surface to eat." The Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed.) has "Food, provisions, light meal, etc." (dialectal) as one of the meanings of "crib" giving several examples including quotations from M. A. Courtney's Glossary (1880) and Rowse's Cornish Childhood (1942). "Crowst" is often explained as a variant of "crust" ((outer layer of bread) so may possibly be a loanword from English to Cornish.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 15:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
While Cornwall is not a country, having "United Kingdom" in the info-box as the place of origin is factually incorrect, the United Kingdom didn't exist when the Pasty was even first recorded in Cornish History, so how can it be its place of origin? Unless it's just where the pasty is generally associated with today, which is still Cornwall primarily. What would be more accurate would be "Cornwall, England" because at the time Cornwall was a part (Or, more accurately, considering Cornwall's distinctiveness then and now, "Administered") of England, and still is (regardless of a few peoples personal opinions, which have no place on this Encyclopaedia). Thank you -- Τασουλα (Shalom!) ( talk) 19:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Has fish ever been used as a filling in the Pasty? It seems strange that it never has. Pastry and fish isn't generally fancied, but certain types of shellfish would seem to fit...I think. Just a random thought I had when looking at the Cornish cuisine article. -- Τασουλα (Shalom!) ( talk) 22:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I see that once again this article is becoming a warring place for people who want to deny that Cornwall is a county in England. Why? One IP editor today states it isn't a county (despite the former article stating that it is) but it is a duchy. Interestingly the lands owned by the Duchy of Cornwall covers a number of counties and half of it is in Devon. I have no objection to the article mentioning the Duchy of Cornwall, but I do strongly object to the constant removal of county status, a fact which is relevant to the article. Obviously related topics have been debated in this article's talk page before, but let's have a sensible discussion instead of reverting to erroneous arguments in edit summaries like "Cornwall is a Duchy - historic fact, so your edit is erroneous." or "You learn your history from Wiki Simple Bob? No wonder you're confused...". (And yes I know I didn't help with my own first edit summary today). -- Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator ( Talk) 22:42, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
@Worm. Thanks for the civic history, & I don't mind at all that you answered :) (I just spotted that I didn't sign this when I posted it) Archolman 21:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
If this article is to go forward to GA, then I really think we should drop some of the how-to stuff. I especially dislike the image gallery used for the two course pasty, and the undue weight that section gives to something that is a relatively minor and very uncommon type of pasty. At most it should have one picture. The images in the previous section showing how a regular pasty are made are fine because they are clear, succinct and add value. -- Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator ( Talk) 08:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty much done on the History and Recipe's section. Need a little more citations, but I trust everyone's happy? Let me know if not Worm TT 12:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Now in for GA. Let's hope this goes well! Worm TT 13:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:35, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: I unlinked tinga and hogen as there are no suitable targets on the disambiguation pages. [2] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: Found and fixed one. [3] Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:43, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Rest of the review within 24 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 00:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Now that I've read this article, I'm fairly hungry. Good job to the contributors here. Would any of you happen to know anything about
bridies such as to improve that article? I've eaten a number of them but apart from recipe books, I'm not sure I could do that article justice.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► (
(⊕)) 01:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
There are still a couple of aspects of pasty-eating by tin miners in this article that owe more to retrospective romanticism than any kind of common sense. They might be moderately sourced but they're still, well, rubbish. These sources just regurgitate the same old fantasy ideas. Dropping pasties down mines to be caught by miners - terrible rubbish. Thousands of feet deep, you only have to stand at the top of an open one to know that they're not straight - you can't drop anything down a mine and expect it not to hit the sides and be smashed to bits. In any case, miners didn't work at the bottom of the main shaft, they worked down side shafts and tunnels at various levels, well out of earshot of the surface. Another thing is the idea of miners holding pasties by the crimp - I've never seen a period photo of anyone holding a pasty by the crimp, and one is hard-pressed to find an old photo of a pasty with a side crimp anyway, regardless of what the Pasty Association will tell you. The postcard image in the article is a good example. All the photos I've seen of miners eating pasties are of them holding one end in a rag or piece of paper and eating the thing end-to-end. The idea of a miner throwing the crust away is also highly unlikely - you're down there, working 8-10 hour shifts in the filth and dark, breathing in untold fumes and poisonous gases, doing extremely dangerous work which will see you dead by 36 (on average) - you're hungry and you're not about to throw away a big chunk of your food. It would be nice to see this crap weeded out or at least tempered with a bit of balance - it's actually pretty insulting to those people who had to do the job. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
I hope this article won't turn into an advert for the group of companies behind the pasty's PGI status. It's important that recipes and suchlike don't state that the only way to make a pasty is their way, i.e. the generic knock-off. The modern pasty firms that make this rubbish have now pushed their recipes and methods of preparation into law, so that the legal definition of the "traditional and correct Cornish pasty" now fits their generic knock-off. If anyone can find a decent reference to state that pasties with minced gristle beef in them are the cheap ersatz pasties most people know them to be, please put it in the article. It's sad that a poor-quality, cheaply-made pasty, churned out by poorly-paid Eastern Europeans on an industrial estate in Helston and sold for £3 at a filling station is now the legally-binding genuine article, but we should try to strike a balance in the article.
Bretonbanquet (
talk) 22:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article:
This isn't historically accurate. Les Merton would appear to be an author and poet, [6] and both the BBC and the Guardian appear to have missed the point that the Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty is a joke, as spotted by the Telegraph [7], the Independent [8] and The Cornish Pasty website [9]. If there were such ancient cave drawings at the Lizard I suspect they would be rather famous! — SMALL JIM 10:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This edit [10] seems like a pretty big revert, and at least in part against prior consensus on this page. Of course, consensus can change. Can we please discuss the long list of changes. As an aside, is it really OK to revert so many changes when they're not vandalism? Cheers, JoeSperrazza ( talk) 16:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The note referred to the difference between commercial & domestic crimping. Side-crimping is quicker for commercial production, because you work to the base of the pasty, instead of picking up two sides & bonding them. Cheers, Dick. Archolman 16:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
That was my note. Trouble is, I can't find the reference. I think it was an on-line article, but wouldn't swear to it. So leave it out until a source can be found. (it is also mentioned on this page, in "Rewrite") Dick Archolman 18:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the question. Could anybody explain me please what is the main difference between a Pasty and an Empanada? How may I distinguish one from the other?-- 189.217.247.66 ( talk) 04:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
The latest bout of edit-warring regarding "England" and "UK" is pathetic and very, very, very old news. This is topped off by someone reverting to their favoured version, then inviting a discussion. Never mind reverting to how the article was when it gained its GA status or anything vaguely sensible like that. The fact is that England, by almost all definitions, is not a country. The country in which Devon and Cornwall are located is the UK. That's what your passport says, that's the country of which Devonians and Cornish people are citizens. This of course does not matter to anyone who just doesn't like that idea. Suggesting that one or other will emerge as a consensus shows an amazing lack of experience in this type of discussion - it won't happen. Weeks and a very long argument later, we'll be nowhere. I suggest the age-old compromise of "England, United Kingdom" as the only suggestion which will remain remotely stable, to appease all the nationalists and also those who are aware of what country they live in. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 19:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
In the absence of any response to those questions, in a few days I will change the infobox field to read "England, UK" in line with the consensus achieved for the text in the lead paragraph. Unless of course, there are any objections or further debate. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 15:46, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the Cornish or Devon pasty is an 'Oggin'.....Surely it is an 'Oggie"? Oggin is a slang Royal Naval term, or use to be when I was in the RN (Andrew), for the sea! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.65.194.63 ( talk) 14:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
This article does not clarify the real difference between a Cornish pasty, a Devonshire pasty and a Pembrokeshire pasty:
1. A Cornish pasty contains beef and vegetables 2. A Devonshire pasty only contains beef. 3. A Pembrokeshire pasty contains roast lamb and mint sauce. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 23:38, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Pasties are not exclusive to Cornwall, nor are all pasties shaped like a CP. Pasties are widely eaten in the North of England as well and there are many different shapes and sizes. This article needs a great deal of editing to move away from its Cornish Bias... CrossHouses ( talk) 02:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)