![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've always been a bit suspicuous of the often repeated thing that miners had one end of the pasty as the pudding and one and as meat... And I read a book about pasties in which the author said that she didn't think it was true and offered this explanation as to where it had come from: The bits of pastry left over when you've made a pasty are called the 'ends' these scraps were often made into little pockets with jam/fruit in. Thus putting fruit in the ends. She also explained from a cooking point of view why she didn't think it would work very well & that despite it being a commonly held tradition that it was the case, she couldn't find any actual evidence of it.
If anyone can find the boook to reference then it might be good just to do a short 'however...' or something, or just change the surety of the wording
BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
ooh wait, there is actually a reasonable bit there though not with the theory above I shall read on next time before launching into my normal reaction to this! BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hasn't anyone noted the glaring error thoughout this article?
In the UK, and in Cornwall where the delacacy originated, the plural of pasty is "pastys". I think this should be incorporated in some way into the main article. Serpren 01:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the pronunciaton (the cart analogy is incorrect - it is pronounced "pass-tee", not "parse-tee" (unless you're a Londoner))
For reasearch puposes I had a look for pasty poems on the web to see what rhymes with 'pasty'. I'm afraid it was the best one I could find!
THE SOUTHERN PASTY POEM from
Wilf Lunn's webpage.
[1]
Hair lair thair. I do declare, a stall that's selling parsties.
Well I’m agarst; they’re selling farst. I wonder what the corst is.
Hay say young Miss, may hay arsk is that your ver’ larst parsty?
And is it larst becors it’s parst it’s tame and its gorn narsty?
Or is it cors you’ve scoffed the lort? I see you’ve increased varstly.
Please examine your ass in a looking glarse, you’ll find it’s facking garstly.
(I should say the accent for the above poem is a posh English accent not a Cornish one) Talskiddy 09:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I am much more inclined to believe that the above poem is not at all meant to be spoken in a posh English accent (RP). My first inclination would be that it is Cockney. Indy4ever ( talk) 11:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
No. It is definitely taking the mick out of a "posh" English accent as the first line says: "Hair lair thair", meaning 'Hello There'! As a Southern Englisher, I can also say that NO English person would say: Parsty. The pronunciation is definitely as in the words: "Mass" and "Tea". Parsty is a mocking expression as The Queen might say it. The whole poem is taking the micky out of a "Posh" person on encountering a Cornish Pasty (a working class food). I find the poem very amusing so I'm going to "translate" it:
Hello there! I do declare, a stall that's selling pasties. Well, I'm aghast; they're selling fast. I wonder what the cost is. I say, young Miss, may I ask is that your very last pasty? And is it last because it's past its time and it's gone nasty Or is it 'cos you've scoffed the lot. I see you've increased vastly. Please examine your arse in a looking glass You'll find it's fucking ghastly!
Cheers to Talskiddy for putting it up! NH 79.121.143.143 ( talk) 23:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The immigration of English coal miners to 19th century Mexico brought the pasty to the city of Pachuca, where it is common, although served with ingredients never thought of in England such as jalapeno peppers.
Quote from the Independent,(London), Nov 13, 2006 by Terry Kirby - "They are revered in eastern Pennsylvania and are often the centre of local church fund raising suppers. They remain a popular dish in the Mexican state of Hildago, particularly stuffed with tinga - shredded chicken - and mole sauce, while almost every local bakery in South Australia makes its own version. Yes, the Cornish pasty can truly be said to have travelled the world, largely thanks to the duchy's immigrant tin miners and their families taking their culinary treasures with them." Geotek 19:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It's stated on the main page that:
"Pasties...in South Australia are generally as popular as, Australian meat pies. However, in other Australian states (those without a Cornish heritage) they are relatively little-known."
However, I wish to advise that pasties are in fact well-known in all Australian states. As a resident of Victoria, I can confirm that pasties, like sausage rolls, are as well known here as meat pies, if not quite as popular, and have been at least since I was a kid living in country Victoria in the 1960s (and probably much longer). Walk into any bakery in Melbourne or country Victoria and you will be able to purchase a meat pie, sausage roll or pasty, and will be asked whether you want tomato sauce with it.-- Ian Woff 21:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
To a recent anonymous editor: why is the pronunciation irrelevant? I want to know how unfamiliar words are pronounced, and I think lots of other people do too. (I think most people who aren't familiar with "pasty" are likely to get it wrong, incidentally. Until I found out, I thought it was pronounced like "having to do with paste".) And why is popularity in Michigan irrelevant? If someone encounters a reference to pasties in Michigan, wouldn't he or she want to be able to find it in an encyclopedia and want to know whether it's related to the Cornish version? — JerryFriedman 18:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Upon reading the article for the first time today I was about to remove the Michigan reference, when I checked this page and found an apparent controversy. So rather than delete it, I'll add a comment here: the status quo is not good. Either Michigan needs to go, or that paragraph needs a brief introduction explaining what relevance Michigan has to Cornish pasties. —too lazy to register, 24:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Gee, I never would have thought of pasties as fast food. While they are sometimes available at kiosks or takeaway shops, the actually preparation of pasties is not exactly fast and in general pasties are not nearly as unhealthful as what I think most people associate with more typical fast foods. older≠ wiser 02:34, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
The key attributes of fast food are that you get it not long after you ordered it and can eat it on the move. There are plenty of pasty outlets that supply pasties like this, throughout the UK. There’s nothing wrong with saying pasties can be bought as a kind of fast food. I mean, come one, just like the sandwich the thing is designed to be eaten by hand Bombot 08:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think with a few improvements we could maybe get this article to
featured article status...
I think it needs splitting up into sections: maybe there could be a section for the history, then a section for each of the places in which they are sold (UK, US and Mexico)? What do people think?
We also really need a picture. I keep meaning to take one, but unfortunately I can't make a pasty last long enough for me to photograph it :-)
David Johnson [
T|
C] 23:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Would someone care to explain why that image has been deleted. Sbz5809 09:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've found out why. Apparently, my requirement that anyone can use it free but no-one can sell it is unacceptable. How stupid is that? Sbz5809 08:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
"if someone wanted to use it on a site advertising pasties for sale, that wouldn't have been allowed by your terms." That was my intention; I don't mind the fact that I'm not allowed to benefit from it but it's stupid to expect me to allow everyone else to do so. Sbz5809 11:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
The image does seem to go against the Image use policy ("Don't put credits in images themselves"). I really don't see why you feel it's necessary to have credits in the image - the image page contains the same details and the license you've chosen requires attribution (anyone who uses it without giving it is violating copyright law). We do need an image, so I guess it will probably stay until we have an alternative. In any case, it cannot be deleted without warning as it would have to go through the Images and media for deletion process. David Johnson [ T| C] 22:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The additional history added recently by 193.38.88.6 is interesting, but needs some serious cleanup. It's also very hit-or-miss. For example, the mention of pasties in "Merry Wives of Windsor" is rather minor, compared to (for example) Titus Andronicus, in which Titus bakes his son's head into a pasty and makes his wife eat it. Other bits cited are also rather unimportant. It looks like this article is being made into a school essay or something like that (some of the anonymous edits make this pretty clear). We should watch out for excess cruft being added. I will try to do some cleanup once I get on to a faster connection. — dcclark ( talk) 18:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment; "Les Merton, author of The Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty, in reply to the claim, says that he believes the pasty was around in Cornwall as early as 8000BC – 10,000 years ago." is eronious, and sould be removed. This quote has been paraphrased from a lighthearted line used when it was claimed that the earliest pasty recipe had been found in Devon.
'"However Les Merton, author of The Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty, said evidence of the pasty could be found in Cornwall from 8,000 BC.
He said: "There are caves at the Lizard in Cornwall with line drawings of men hunting a stag and women eating a pasty.
"At that time it was wrapped in leaves and not pastry, but the leaves were crimped, so I would say there is positive evidence of pasties in Cornwall from primitive times."' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/6144460.stm
Obviously a joke
Also, the link for this claim; ^ "Pasty Wars", Western Morning News. Retrieved on 2006-12-23. leads to the front page of the Western Morning News, and should be removed Serpren ( talk) 07:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Copied from above, where this got lost in another thread:
Then we really should move the article to Pasty since that is what the typical resident of both Cornwall and the UP call it, and how both renditions (as well as the Australian and Mexican ones) are variations of the same food item. Generic page titles are generally better than overspecific ones -- (originally Kaszeta)
Please support or oppose below.
Moved. — Nightstallion (?) 11:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
The idea of the pasty with savoury filling at one end and sweet at the other is surely an invention, albeit a nice idea. There is no satisfactory way of dividing sweet from savoury inside a pasty, and the chances of avoiding a grim mixture of beef and jam/apple are nil. Pasty pastry melts slightly when first cooked, which would render any pastry partition useless within about 20 minutes of being in the oven. Not only that, beef pasties take the very best part of an hour and a quarter to cook, whereas any jam/apple filled pastry confection would be utterly carbonised in that length of time, making it near impossible to contrive such a thing. Apart from boiling the thing in a suet-type pastry (not really commonly done in Cornwall that I know of) or using pre-cooked ingredients (never done in Cornwall, and certainly not in the 1800s - way too time-consuming), it just has to be made up.
Also, using ground beef or mince is as much a guarantee of inferior quality as is carrot, peas etc. Skirt is the only really "traditional" cut to use, though chuck is OK, and shin is a maybe.
Lastly, in photos I have seen (and Lord help me, I've seen a lot) miners tended to hold their pasties in whatever they were wrapped in, usually paper or cloth. They were almost always eaten end to end, with the effect of the juices running through keeping the pasty moist till the end. So I am not convinced by the idea that the crimp was designed to be held, although certainly miners would not have touched the filled part with their fingers - the crimp is solely there to keep the edges of the pastry together. It is common for a crimp to be along the top of a pasty - in this case you can't hold the pasty by the crimp anyway.
I like the article though, I must say - I don't mean to be critical. But you really must spell "Helston" correctly in the credits on the image of the pasty... :o) Bretonbanquet 01:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the crimp, I'm assuming you have your wires crossed. An authentic Cornish pasty crimp is along the top, like the one in the top photo, as opposed to the Michigan pasty in the other photo. I've lived here my whole life and have never seen a home-made pasty with a side crimp. My grandmother (and her mother before her apparently) always made pasties with a top crimp, and that takes us back to about 1920.
Concerning the double-ended pasties, I'd consider it a lot more likely if there was even one of the many commercial pasty-bakers here who were making them today. It would be a fine gimmick, but no-one is doing it - my guess is that it's just too difficult to get the right result. Bretonbanquet 18:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea how Devon pasties are crimped, I wasn't aware that there was a particular difference between them and Cornish pasties. Some shop pasties here (in Cornwall) have a crimp tending towards the side, but others run along the top. Equally some non-Cornish pasty-type delicacies have top crimps, and others (like Ginsters) have side "crimps". Maybe there isn't a hard-and-fast definition of an authentic Cornish pasty crimp, but I am certain that a top crimp is at least very common indeed. For example, the Helston pasty shown in the photo. Bretonbanquet 00:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Guys I don't think you could have better authority than the Cornish Pasty association they clearly state a real Cornish Pasty is D-shaped and crimped ONLY on the side a fact which all genuine Cornish pasty makers are certain of. My family recipe dates back to the 19th century so I am confident of the accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 12:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
There is in fact a real split-filled pasty, but it's not a Cornish pasty. They are called Bedfordshire Clangers. Here are some refs: [2], [3], and the Wikipedia article here-- H-ko ( Talk) 02:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The picture with a caption on top of it is rather ugly that way imho. I'm sure there must be a Wikipedian with a camera who can photograph a Cornish pastie and upload it? -- kingboyk 17:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
There has been a bit of editing going on with regard to the term "oggy" being used / not being used / said to be used for a Cornish pasty. I haven't edited that myself, but I'm fairly sure that term is never used IN Cornwall. Maybe if we can establish where it is used (if anywhere), we could adjust the sentence accordingly. Bretonbanquet 19:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
My father was born in Cornwall and refers to them as "tiddy oggies" or something like that. I assume it's Cornish. Thedarxide 10:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As a West Cornwall lad, we always used to call them "teddy oggies". On doing a bit of research I found out that "oggy" comes from dial "hoggan", in itself derived from the old Cornish word "hogen", meaning a pie or pastry bake. You could argue that "teddy oggy" is more Cornish than the word "pasty" which has a Latin origin. Brythonek ( talk) 21:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah Oggy is Cornish, although its more of an historic term, so we don't use it that much (except as a cheer) but we all know what it means. In the Cornish language a pasty is also referred to as a 'hoggan' you can see how Oggy can be derived from that. Outside of Cornwall I believe oggy is just seen as a cheer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 12:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
He mentions pasties in one of his books - perhaps Notes from a big country? He talks about how they have entered into certain areas of Michigan but not others... could be worth looking for that and noting any thing that might be of interest for the article. -- Robdurbar 12:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just read a reference to "pasty tongue" as an indicator among other signs of ingesting narcotics like "white desidue around lips", "constant burping" and "bloodshot eyes".
I would like to get a better or more explicit explanation in order to get a better idea of the real meaning of the expression....I only understand the reference considering just the shape of the pasties.
I added a disambig link to the page on pasties, the nipple coverings, because I accidentally ended up here when looking for them, as many people might. It was removed as vandalism, which it was not. I have readded it; if you think it is inappropriate, please discuss here. Remember, Wikipedia is not censored. Mgcsinc 21:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What's with the Wikipedia is not censored line? Rsm99833 22:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs to be combined with "Pastie." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 ( talk) 17:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Why is this article soley about Cornish pasties? There are all kinds of fillings available in pasties.-- Jcvamp 01:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It found it unclear, and at the top of the page it says the article is about 'Cornish Pasty'-- Jcvamp 02:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
What are you talking about calling a revert vandalism?-- Jcvamp 18:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh. I forgot that you put a note on my talk page about that.-- Jcvamp 22:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Saturday 1 December 1660 -I dined with my Lord and Lady, and we had a venison pasty. Talskiddy 08:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
A stellar article. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. I just had a pasty the other day (around here, they spell it "pastie", and I doubt they are about to change). A great Cornish contribution to the world. Isaac Crumm 01:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added a {{fact}} tag on the claim that the plural is pastys. I grew up in Cornwall and have never heard it claimed that pastys is the correct plural - pasties is AFAIK correct. DuncanHill 08:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Given the latest information on the Cornwall/Devon origins, shouldn't the introduction read either "generally believed to originate from Cornwall" or "originating from Cornwall or Devon"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastiesrock ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1945876,00.html [4] Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastiesrock ( talk • contribs) 22:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone clarify what is meant by the section saying that ancient references to pasties in decon were areas that used to be part of cornwall... BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This page seem only to refer to the Cornish version. There are several early examples of recipes for pasties that predate the earliset Cornish reference.
I think the page should reflect that the pasty has English origins and that the Cornish version has developed its own traditional style in the county and remains popular in Cornwall.
To summerise.. Pasties or various kinds have been around for hundreds of years but Cornish version is unique and distinct to the county of Cornwall. Talskiddy 12:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Just some notes to explain my recent edits (or at least, those that are potentially controversial).
— David Johnson [ T| C] 18:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
What exactly constitutes an external link relevant to this page? The only thing I can think of is one link to a good recipe page. The list is currently a bit spammed. -- Joowwww ( talk) 19:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
How can you tell the Difference
The difference is the Crimp as for the ingrediance everyone to there own. I come from Devon and now living in Cornwall having seeing the changes over the years a lot of traditions have been alter and changed due to manufactoring (easy way to produce at a low cost) products.
The Cornish Partie was shapped for easy putting into a round circular tin to lower down to the miners which was home made more like the Cornish tradition Rugby Ball and could be said used as a land mark in that the main towns in Cornwall run down the center. It was first produce as to legend as a Fish (Pilhard) and fruit from the local bushes supplied with a small tin of single cream (Where pilchard and Cream, not clotted cream, come from)plus the cream which the miners carried could be used with there brew. I learn't about making Cornish Pasties in the Army Catering Corps.
The Devonshire Tiddy 'Teddy' Oggy (Meaning something which has been squashed) Pasty was shape with the crimp on it side so that when the farmer workers had finish with there pasty the pastry what was left would be thrown down to the small creatures in return for the crops taken. You could say that the pasty picture the main towns of Devonshire which are coastal towns. Plus it you put to side by side you have the meat and potatoe pie.
Clotted cream back in those days was produce by taking the milk from the churn into a large pan and warmed up then let to cool leaving a skim of cream on the top, this was cloted cream. In one of Devonshire high teas traditional dishes called Thunder and Lighting. Where you got a piece of Farm house bread use diary butter spread over it then put clotted cream on top of then and to finsih added syrup. This just melt in your mouth leaving you with a taste for more.
I went on the All Rise for Julian Clary in relation to this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.223.69 ( talk) 13:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I am Cornish and like most Cornish families have a pasty recipe passed down for generations, real Cornish Pasties contain potato, swede, skirt and onion. The pasty is Cornish if the crimp is done at a 45 degree angle or on the side. Devonians crimp their pasties so that the crimp sits on top of the filling. If you are unclear about my description please feel free to look at this website http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/ which clearly details information about Cornish pasties and corroborates my statements. Sorry if this is what you were saying above but it really didn't make a lot of sense to me and hopefully this link will be useful to clear up any further discussions.
The title of this section is "Cornish Pasties Vs Devonshire Tiddy 'Teddy' Oggys (Pasty) " Hence I am discussing the difference. Yes a true Pasty is Cornish, however, a way of telling the difference between a pasty of COrnish or Devonian origin is as I have described above, thus ensuring people know when they are given a true Pasty. I was only responding to the beginning of the article which is unclear and I wanted to clarify, unless I have misunderstood the first poster in this section suggests that a Cornish Pasty is top crimped but changes were may due to ease of mass production, my family recipe (over 100 yr old) calls for side crimping. Do you disagree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 11:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems there is more than one Cornish term for "pasty". While "pasti" is listed in the article, the terms "hogan" and possibly "hoggan" can be found elsewhere and are claimed as the origin of "tiddie oggie". But which is older? "Pasti" looks like it could be borrowed from the English term, which itself can be traced back to French. Is "hogan" older and does it have any other senses or reflexes in other Celtic lanuages? — Hippietrail ( talk) 16:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
think this is a wild goose chase - most likely there is no Cornish (i.e.Kernewek) word for pasty because they became popular in the period after the Cornish / Devon people adopted English. I understand from my (East) Cornish (now departed) forebears that 'Tiddy' was the local word used for potato - 'tater' elsewhere in England - though i'm prepared to accept 'hoggan - oggie' may be an older remnant. Also given that a key ingredient - the potato - was not available until the Early Modern period (and introduced by either Walter Raleigh or Francis Drake; bothMen of Devon]] no less !!) its unlikely that the modern version was eaten in the pre modern period.
Quoting the current article: "Pasties in these areas are usually hand-made and sold in bakeries or sometimes specialist pasty shops. Mass produced pasties, quite different from traditional Cornish pasties, are sold in supermarkets throughout the United Kingdom. Several pasty shop chains have also opened up in recent years, selling pasties better than the mass-produced ones with a variety of fillings. Pasties are often eaten on the move like other fast foods."
I've eaten pasties in the UK for 30 years or so. I've had pasties in several places in Cornwall, supermarket pasties and those from the recent "baked fresh" chain stores as well as bakery chains like Greggs. I like pasties. Pasties sold in the small high-street bakeries whilst nicer aren't that different to, say, Ginsters or Greggs or local Tesco ones (Tesco buy from local bakeries). Those I've had in Cornwall haven't been noticeably better than anywhere else. To say mass produced (eg "baked fresh") pasties are "quite different" is a bit of a stretch. A good pasty compares to a poor one like a kettle chip to regular crisps - but many people make excellent mass-produced kettle chips and many make excellent mass produced cornish pasties. Pbhj ( talk) 19:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a problem with the biased statement that: "Some archivists and individuals in Devon have claimed that the pasty originally comes from Devon" .
How can claims like this be allowed into the article? - Yes, there is a reference but it is clear from the article that recipes for pasties have been around for a lot longer than the document that is held in the Devon Records Office. Many people have 'claimed' to be Jesus, but sadly they are very deluded.--
Talskiddy (
talk) 18:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Current text is: "Some archivists and individuals in Devon have claimed that the pasty originally comes from Devon, although this was refuted by Cornish historians claiming that evidence for the pasty's roots in Cornwall go back millennia.[6] Outside Britain, pasties were generally brought to new regions by Cornish miners, and as such contributes to the perception of pasties as a Cornish invention."
Can someone produce a recipe for the supposed two-course pasty? Otherwise it looks a lot like something someone just made up. Also, one of the pictures of the pasty being made shows an enormous quantity of what looks like carrot. Can anyone clarify? Bretonbanquet ( talk) 22:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I dont think anything in the BBC article claims that the pasties were a Welsh invention or tradition, it says... "The idea was adapted from an old recipe which the copper miners at Parys mountain used to eat," . Many of these miners at the Parys and Mona copper mines were Cornish. A good webpage here: ( http://www.angleseymining.co.uk/parysmountain/Cockshutt/Cockshutt_1960.htm) says.... Shaft sinking followed Cornish practice closely. Indeed, the mine captains were often Cornishmen,. -- Talskiddy ( talk) 22:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
This seems to me much overstated. It needs reduction and citation. Pasties and pasty-like foods are very widespread indeed. Suggest discussion of origins (including dispute) be confined to a single section, and all further gustatorial patriotism deleted; the point of the association can be effectively made without becoming unencylcopedic. DavidOaks ( talk) 16:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The Cornwall-Devon thing is a nonsense. I grew up in Plymouth in Devon eating pasties many days a week - our family recipe is from the Tamar Valley (Cornish side) but i have perfectly good and identical 'pasties' (as they are less selfconsciously known) in Devon - Tavistock, Okehampton, Exeter etc. The side crimping vs. top crimping is a modern fallacy artificially invented to differentiate the Cornish product and obtain its designated origin status. Clearly this is a north - western European culinary tradition dating back from the middle ages that retained its particular popularity in the golden tin-mining era of the eighteenth & ninteenth centuries.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I've always been a bit suspicuous of the often repeated thing that miners had one end of the pasty as the pudding and one and as meat... And I read a book about pasties in which the author said that she didn't think it was true and offered this explanation as to where it had come from: The bits of pastry left over when you've made a pasty are called the 'ends' these scraps were often made into little pockets with jam/fruit in. Thus putting fruit in the ends. She also explained from a cooking point of view why she didn't think it would work very well & that despite it being a commonly held tradition that it was the case, she couldn't find any actual evidence of it.
If anyone can find the boook to reference then it might be good just to do a short 'however...' or something, or just change the surety of the wording
BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
ooh wait, there is actually a reasonable bit there though not with the theory above I shall read on next time before launching into my normal reaction to this! BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Hasn't anyone noted the glaring error thoughout this article?
In the UK, and in Cornwall where the delacacy originated, the plural of pasty is "pastys". I think this should be incorporated in some way into the main article. Serpren 01:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I corrected the pronunciaton (the cart analogy is incorrect - it is pronounced "pass-tee", not "parse-tee" (unless you're a Londoner))
For reasearch puposes I had a look for pasty poems on the web to see what rhymes with 'pasty'. I'm afraid it was the best one I could find!
THE SOUTHERN PASTY POEM from
Wilf Lunn's webpage.
[1]
Hair lair thair. I do declare, a stall that's selling parsties.
Well I’m agarst; they’re selling farst. I wonder what the corst is.
Hay say young Miss, may hay arsk is that your ver’ larst parsty?
And is it larst becors it’s parst it’s tame and its gorn narsty?
Or is it cors you’ve scoffed the lort? I see you’ve increased varstly.
Please examine your ass in a looking glarse, you’ll find it’s facking garstly.
(I should say the accent for the above poem is a posh English accent not a Cornish one) Talskiddy 09:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I am much more inclined to believe that the above poem is not at all meant to be spoken in a posh English accent (RP). My first inclination would be that it is Cockney. Indy4ever ( talk) 11:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
No. It is definitely taking the mick out of a "posh" English accent as the first line says: "Hair lair thair", meaning 'Hello There'! As a Southern Englisher, I can also say that NO English person would say: Parsty. The pronunciation is definitely as in the words: "Mass" and "Tea". Parsty is a mocking expression as The Queen might say it. The whole poem is taking the micky out of a "Posh" person on encountering a Cornish Pasty (a working class food). I find the poem very amusing so I'm going to "translate" it:
Hello there! I do declare, a stall that's selling pasties. Well, I'm aghast; they're selling fast. I wonder what the cost is. I say, young Miss, may I ask is that your very last pasty? And is it last because it's past its time and it's gone nasty Or is it 'cos you've scoffed the lot. I see you've increased vastly. Please examine your arse in a looking glass You'll find it's fucking ghastly!
Cheers to Talskiddy for putting it up! NH 79.121.143.143 ( talk) 23:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The immigration of English coal miners to 19th century Mexico brought the pasty to the city of Pachuca, where it is common, although served with ingredients never thought of in England such as jalapeno peppers.
Quote from the Independent,(London), Nov 13, 2006 by Terry Kirby - "They are revered in eastern Pennsylvania and are often the centre of local church fund raising suppers. They remain a popular dish in the Mexican state of Hildago, particularly stuffed with tinga - shredded chicken - and mole sauce, while almost every local bakery in South Australia makes its own version. Yes, the Cornish pasty can truly be said to have travelled the world, largely thanks to the duchy's immigrant tin miners and their families taking their culinary treasures with them." Geotek 19:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It's stated on the main page that:
"Pasties...in South Australia are generally as popular as, Australian meat pies. However, in other Australian states (those without a Cornish heritage) they are relatively little-known."
However, I wish to advise that pasties are in fact well-known in all Australian states. As a resident of Victoria, I can confirm that pasties, like sausage rolls, are as well known here as meat pies, if not quite as popular, and have been at least since I was a kid living in country Victoria in the 1960s (and probably much longer). Walk into any bakery in Melbourne or country Victoria and you will be able to purchase a meat pie, sausage roll or pasty, and will be asked whether you want tomato sauce with it.-- Ian Woff 21:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
To a recent anonymous editor: why is the pronunciation irrelevant? I want to know how unfamiliar words are pronounced, and I think lots of other people do too. (I think most people who aren't familiar with "pasty" are likely to get it wrong, incidentally. Until I found out, I thought it was pronounced like "having to do with paste".) And why is popularity in Michigan irrelevant? If someone encounters a reference to pasties in Michigan, wouldn't he or she want to be able to find it in an encyclopedia and want to know whether it's related to the Cornish version? — JerryFriedman 18:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Upon reading the article for the first time today I was about to remove the Michigan reference, when I checked this page and found an apparent controversy. So rather than delete it, I'll add a comment here: the status quo is not good. Either Michigan needs to go, or that paragraph needs a brief introduction explaining what relevance Michigan has to Cornish pasties. —too lazy to register, 24:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Gee, I never would have thought of pasties as fast food. While they are sometimes available at kiosks or takeaway shops, the actually preparation of pasties is not exactly fast and in general pasties are not nearly as unhealthful as what I think most people associate with more typical fast foods. older≠ wiser 02:34, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
The key attributes of fast food are that you get it not long after you ordered it and can eat it on the move. There are plenty of pasty outlets that supply pasties like this, throughout the UK. There’s nothing wrong with saying pasties can be bought as a kind of fast food. I mean, come one, just like the sandwich the thing is designed to be eaten by hand Bombot 08:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I think with a few improvements we could maybe get this article to
featured article status...
I think it needs splitting up into sections: maybe there could be a section for the history, then a section for each of the places in which they are sold (UK, US and Mexico)? What do people think?
We also really need a picture. I keep meaning to take one, but unfortunately I can't make a pasty last long enough for me to photograph it :-)
David Johnson [
T|
C] 23:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Would someone care to explain why that image has been deleted. Sbz5809 09:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I've found out why. Apparently, my requirement that anyone can use it free but no-one can sell it is unacceptable. How stupid is that? Sbz5809 08:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
"if someone wanted to use it on a site advertising pasties for sale, that wouldn't have been allowed by your terms." That was my intention; I don't mind the fact that I'm not allowed to benefit from it but it's stupid to expect me to allow everyone else to do so. Sbz5809 11:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
The image does seem to go against the Image use policy ("Don't put credits in images themselves"). I really don't see why you feel it's necessary to have credits in the image - the image page contains the same details and the license you've chosen requires attribution (anyone who uses it without giving it is violating copyright law). We do need an image, so I guess it will probably stay until we have an alternative. In any case, it cannot be deleted without warning as it would have to go through the Images and media for deletion process. David Johnson [ T| C] 22:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The additional history added recently by 193.38.88.6 is interesting, but needs some serious cleanup. It's also very hit-or-miss. For example, the mention of pasties in "Merry Wives of Windsor" is rather minor, compared to (for example) Titus Andronicus, in which Titus bakes his son's head into a pasty and makes his wife eat it. Other bits cited are also rather unimportant. It looks like this article is being made into a school essay or something like that (some of the anonymous edits make this pretty clear). We should watch out for excess cruft being added. I will try to do some cleanup once I get on to a faster connection. — dcclark ( talk) 18:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The comment; "Les Merton, author of The Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty, in reply to the claim, says that he believes the pasty was around in Cornwall as early as 8000BC – 10,000 years ago." is eronious, and sould be removed. This quote has been paraphrased from a lighthearted line used when it was claimed that the earliest pasty recipe had been found in Devon.
'"However Les Merton, author of The Official Encyclopaedia of the Cornish Pasty, said evidence of the pasty could be found in Cornwall from 8,000 BC.
He said: "There are caves at the Lizard in Cornwall with line drawings of men hunting a stag and women eating a pasty.
"At that time it was wrapped in leaves and not pastry, but the leaves were crimped, so I would say there is positive evidence of pasties in Cornwall from primitive times."' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/6144460.stm
Obviously a joke
Also, the link for this claim; ^ "Pasty Wars", Western Morning News. Retrieved on 2006-12-23. leads to the front page of the Western Morning News, and should be removed Serpren ( talk) 07:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Copied from above, where this got lost in another thread:
Then we really should move the article to Pasty since that is what the typical resident of both Cornwall and the UP call it, and how both renditions (as well as the Australian and Mexican ones) are variations of the same food item. Generic page titles are generally better than overspecific ones -- (originally Kaszeta)
Please support or oppose below.
Moved. — Nightstallion (?) 11:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
The idea of the pasty with savoury filling at one end and sweet at the other is surely an invention, albeit a nice idea. There is no satisfactory way of dividing sweet from savoury inside a pasty, and the chances of avoiding a grim mixture of beef and jam/apple are nil. Pasty pastry melts slightly when first cooked, which would render any pastry partition useless within about 20 minutes of being in the oven. Not only that, beef pasties take the very best part of an hour and a quarter to cook, whereas any jam/apple filled pastry confection would be utterly carbonised in that length of time, making it near impossible to contrive such a thing. Apart from boiling the thing in a suet-type pastry (not really commonly done in Cornwall that I know of) or using pre-cooked ingredients (never done in Cornwall, and certainly not in the 1800s - way too time-consuming), it just has to be made up.
Also, using ground beef or mince is as much a guarantee of inferior quality as is carrot, peas etc. Skirt is the only really "traditional" cut to use, though chuck is OK, and shin is a maybe.
Lastly, in photos I have seen (and Lord help me, I've seen a lot) miners tended to hold their pasties in whatever they were wrapped in, usually paper or cloth. They were almost always eaten end to end, with the effect of the juices running through keeping the pasty moist till the end. So I am not convinced by the idea that the crimp was designed to be held, although certainly miners would not have touched the filled part with their fingers - the crimp is solely there to keep the edges of the pastry together. It is common for a crimp to be along the top of a pasty - in this case you can't hold the pasty by the crimp anyway.
I like the article though, I must say - I don't mean to be critical. But you really must spell "Helston" correctly in the credits on the image of the pasty... :o) Bretonbanquet 01:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the crimp, I'm assuming you have your wires crossed. An authentic Cornish pasty crimp is along the top, like the one in the top photo, as opposed to the Michigan pasty in the other photo. I've lived here my whole life and have never seen a home-made pasty with a side crimp. My grandmother (and her mother before her apparently) always made pasties with a top crimp, and that takes us back to about 1920.
Concerning the double-ended pasties, I'd consider it a lot more likely if there was even one of the many commercial pasty-bakers here who were making them today. It would be a fine gimmick, but no-one is doing it - my guess is that it's just too difficult to get the right result. Bretonbanquet 18:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea how Devon pasties are crimped, I wasn't aware that there was a particular difference between them and Cornish pasties. Some shop pasties here (in Cornwall) have a crimp tending towards the side, but others run along the top. Equally some non-Cornish pasty-type delicacies have top crimps, and others (like Ginsters) have side "crimps". Maybe there isn't a hard-and-fast definition of an authentic Cornish pasty crimp, but I am certain that a top crimp is at least very common indeed. For example, the Helston pasty shown in the photo. Bretonbanquet 00:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Guys I don't think you could have better authority than the Cornish Pasty association they clearly state a real Cornish Pasty is D-shaped and crimped ONLY on the side a fact which all genuine Cornish pasty makers are certain of. My family recipe dates back to the 19th century so I am confident of the accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 12:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
There is in fact a real split-filled pasty, but it's not a Cornish pasty. They are called Bedfordshire Clangers. Here are some refs: [2], [3], and the Wikipedia article here-- H-ko ( Talk) 02:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The picture with a caption on top of it is rather ugly that way imho. I'm sure there must be a Wikipedian with a camera who can photograph a Cornish pastie and upload it? -- kingboyk 17:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
There has been a bit of editing going on with regard to the term "oggy" being used / not being used / said to be used for a Cornish pasty. I haven't edited that myself, but I'm fairly sure that term is never used IN Cornwall. Maybe if we can establish where it is used (if anywhere), we could adjust the sentence accordingly. Bretonbanquet 19:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
My father was born in Cornwall and refers to them as "tiddy oggies" or something like that. I assume it's Cornish. Thedarxide 10:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As a West Cornwall lad, we always used to call them "teddy oggies". On doing a bit of research I found out that "oggy" comes from dial "hoggan", in itself derived from the old Cornish word "hogen", meaning a pie or pastry bake. You could argue that "teddy oggy" is more Cornish than the word "pasty" which has a Latin origin. Brythonek ( talk) 21:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah Oggy is Cornish, although its more of an historic term, so we don't use it that much (except as a cheer) but we all know what it means. In the Cornish language a pasty is also referred to as a 'hoggan' you can see how Oggy can be derived from that. Outside of Cornwall I believe oggy is just seen as a cheer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 12:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
He mentions pasties in one of his books - perhaps Notes from a big country? He talks about how they have entered into certain areas of Michigan but not others... could be worth looking for that and noting any thing that might be of interest for the article. -- Robdurbar 12:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just read a reference to "pasty tongue" as an indicator among other signs of ingesting narcotics like "white desidue around lips", "constant burping" and "bloodshot eyes".
I would like to get a better or more explicit explanation in order to get a better idea of the real meaning of the expression....I only understand the reference considering just the shape of the pasties.
I added a disambig link to the page on pasties, the nipple coverings, because I accidentally ended up here when looking for them, as many people might. It was removed as vandalism, which it was not. I have readded it; if you think it is inappropriate, please discuss here. Remember, Wikipedia is not censored. Mgcsinc 21:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What's with the Wikipedia is not censored line? Rsm99833 22:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This article needs to be combined with "Pastie." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.216.11.5 ( talk) 17:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Why is this article soley about Cornish pasties? There are all kinds of fillings available in pasties.-- Jcvamp 01:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It found it unclear, and at the top of the page it says the article is about 'Cornish Pasty'-- Jcvamp 02:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
What are you talking about calling a revert vandalism?-- Jcvamp 18:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh. I forgot that you put a note on my talk page about that.-- Jcvamp 22:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Saturday 1 December 1660 -I dined with my Lord and Lady, and we had a venison pasty. Talskiddy 08:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
A stellar article. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. I just had a pasty the other day (around here, they spell it "pastie", and I doubt they are about to change). A great Cornish contribution to the world. Isaac Crumm 01:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I have added a {{fact}} tag on the claim that the plural is pastys. I grew up in Cornwall and have never heard it claimed that pastys is the correct plural - pasties is AFAIK correct. DuncanHill 08:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Given the latest information on the Cornwall/Devon origins, shouldn't the introduction read either "generally believed to originate from Cornwall" or "originating from Cornwall or Devon"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastiesrock ( talk • contribs) 11:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1945876,00.html [4] Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastiesrock ( talk • contribs) 22:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone clarify what is meant by the section saying that ancient references to pasties in decon were areas that used to be part of cornwall... BM 86.139.85.63 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
This page seem only to refer to the Cornish version. There are several early examples of recipes for pasties that predate the earliset Cornish reference.
I think the page should reflect that the pasty has English origins and that the Cornish version has developed its own traditional style in the county and remains popular in Cornwall.
To summerise.. Pasties or various kinds have been around for hundreds of years but Cornish version is unique and distinct to the county of Cornwall. Talskiddy 12:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Just some notes to explain my recent edits (or at least, those that are potentially controversial).
— David Johnson [ T| C] 18:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
What exactly constitutes an external link relevant to this page? The only thing I can think of is one link to a good recipe page. The list is currently a bit spammed. -- Joowwww ( talk) 19:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
How can you tell the Difference
The difference is the Crimp as for the ingrediance everyone to there own. I come from Devon and now living in Cornwall having seeing the changes over the years a lot of traditions have been alter and changed due to manufactoring (easy way to produce at a low cost) products.
The Cornish Partie was shapped for easy putting into a round circular tin to lower down to the miners which was home made more like the Cornish tradition Rugby Ball and could be said used as a land mark in that the main towns in Cornwall run down the center. It was first produce as to legend as a Fish (Pilhard) and fruit from the local bushes supplied with a small tin of single cream (Where pilchard and Cream, not clotted cream, come from)plus the cream which the miners carried could be used with there brew. I learn't about making Cornish Pasties in the Army Catering Corps.
The Devonshire Tiddy 'Teddy' Oggy (Meaning something which has been squashed) Pasty was shape with the crimp on it side so that when the farmer workers had finish with there pasty the pastry what was left would be thrown down to the small creatures in return for the crops taken. You could say that the pasty picture the main towns of Devonshire which are coastal towns. Plus it you put to side by side you have the meat and potatoe pie.
Clotted cream back in those days was produce by taking the milk from the churn into a large pan and warmed up then let to cool leaving a skim of cream on the top, this was cloted cream. In one of Devonshire high teas traditional dishes called Thunder and Lighting. Where you got a piece of Farm house bread use diary butter spread over it then put clotted cream on top of then and to finsih added syrup. This just melt in your mouth leaving you with a taste for more.
I went on the All Rise for Julian Clary in relation to this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.223.69 ( talk) 13:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I am Cornish and like most Cornish families have a pasty recipe passed down for generations, real Cornish Pasties contain potato, swede, skirt and onion. The pasty is Cornish if the crimp is done at a 45 degree angle or on the side. Devonians crimp their pasties so that the crimp sits on top of the filling. If you are unclear about my description please feel free to look at this website http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/ which clearly details information about Cornish pasties and corroborates my statements. Sorry if this is what you were saying above but it really didn't make a lot of sense to me and hopefully this link will be useful to clear up any further discussions.
The title of this section is "Cornish Pasties Vs Devonshire Tiddy 'Teddy' Oggys (Pasty) " Hence I am discussing the difference. Yes a true Pasty is Cornish, however, a way of telling the difference between a pasty of COrnish or Devonian origin is as I have described above, thus ensuring people know when they are given a true Pasty. I was only responding to the beginning of the article which is unclear and I wanted to clarify, unless I have misunderstood the first poster in this section suggests that a Cornish Pasty is top crimped but changes were may due to ease of mass production, my family recipe (over 100 yr old) calls for side crimping. Do you disagree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.248.77 ( talk) 11:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems there is more than one Cornish term for "pasty". While "pasti" is listed in the article, the terms "hogan" and possibly "hoggan" can be found elsewhere and are claimed as the origin of "tiddie oggie". But which is older? "Pasti" looks like it could be borrowed from the English term, which itself can be traced back to French. Is "hogan" older and does it have any other senses or reflexes in other Celtic lanuages? — Hippietrail ( talk) 16:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
think this is a wild goose chase - most likely there is no Cornish (i.e.Kernewek) word for pasty because they became popular in the period after the Cornish / Devon people adopted English. I understand from my (East) Cornish (now departed) forebears that 'Tiddy' was the local word used for potato - 'tater' elsewhere in England - though i'm prepared to accept 'hoggan - oggie' may be an older remnant. Also given that a key ingredient - the potato - was not available until the Early Modern period (and introduced by either Walter Raleigh or Francis Drake; bothMen of Devon]] no less !!) its unlikely that the modern version was eaten in the pre modern period.
Quoting the current article: "Pasties in these areas are usually hand-made and sold in bakeries or sometimes specialist pasty shops. Mass produced pasties, quite different from traditional Cornish pasties, are sold in supermarkets throughout the United Kingdom. Several pasty shop chains have also opened up in recent years, selling pasties better than the mass-produced ones with a variety of fillings. Pasties are often eaten on the move like other fast foods."
I've eaten pasties in the UK for 30 years or so. I've had pasties in several places in Cornwall, supermarket pasties and those from the recent "baked fresh" chain stores as well as bakery chains like Greggs. I like pasties. Pasties sold in the small high-street bakeries whilst nicer aren't that different to, say, Ginsters or Greggs or local Tesco ones (Tesco buy from local bakeries). Those I've had in Cornwall haven't been noticeably better than anywhere else. To say mass produced (eg "baked fresh") pasties are "quite different" is a bit of a stretch. A good pasty compares to a poor one like a kettle chip to regular crisps - but many people make excellent mass-produced kettle chips and many make excellent mass produced cornish pasties. Pbhj ( talk) 19:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a problem with the biased statement that: "Some archivists and individuals in Devon have claimed that the pasty originally comes from Devon" .
How can claims like this be allowed into the article? - Yes, there is a reference but it is clear from the article that recipes for pasties have been around for a lot longer than the document that is held in the Devon Records Office. Many people have 'claimed' to be Jesus, but sadly they are very deluded.--
Talskiddy (
talk) 18:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Current text is: "Some archivists and individuals in Devon have claimed that the pasty originally comes from Devon, although this was refuted by Cornish historians claiming that evidence for the pasty's roots in Cornwall go back millennia.[6] Outside Britain, pasties were generally brought to new regions by Cornish miners, and as such contributes to the perception of pasties as a Cornish invention."
Can someone produce a recipe for the supposed two-course pasty? Otherwise it looks a lot like something someone just made up. Also, one of the pictures of the pasty being made shows an enormous quantity of what looks like carrot. Can anyone clarify? Bretonbanquet ( talk) 22:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I dont think anything in the BBC article claims that the pasties were a Welsh invention or tradition, it says... "The idea was adapted from an old recipe which the copper miners at Parys mountain used to eat," . Many of these miners at the Parys and Mona copper mines were Cornish. A good webpage here: ( http://www.angleseymining.co.uk/parysmountain/Cockshutt/Cockshutt_1960.htm) says.... Shaft sinking followed Cornish practice closely. Indeed, the mine captains were often Cornishmen,. -- Talskiddy ( talk) 22:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
This seems to me much overstated. It needs reduction and citation. Pasties and pasty-like foods are very widespread indeed. Suggest discussion of origins (including dispute) be confined to a single section, and all further gustatorial patriotism deleted; the point of the association can be effectively made without becoming unencylcopedic. DavidOaks ( talk) 16:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The Cornwall-Devon thing is a nonsense. I grew up in Plymouth in Devon eating pasties many days a week - our family recipe is from the Tamar Valley (Cornish side) but i have perfectly good and identical 'pasties' (as they are less selfconsciously known) in Devon - Tavistock, Okehampton, Exeter etc. The side crimping vs. top crimping is a modern fallacy artificially invented to differentiate the Cornish product and obtain its designated origin status. Clearly this is a north - western European culinary tradition dating back from the middle ages that retained its particular popularity in the golden tin-mining era of the eighteenth & ninteenth centuries.