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It would be considerably more balanced if the strong "pro" quote were paired with an equally strong "con" quote - anyone have one?
Pro-choice groups oppose the law on three grounds:
Wait I thought the reason for outlawing 3rd trimester abortions was because the fetus could live outside the womb. Even most pro-choice groups agree with this. This is outlawing killing a baby thats basically been born and can survive outside the womb, I don't see the opposition... Redwolf24 9 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)
"There may be no known precedent"? Either there is or there isn't, right? Or is there a contested precedent? -- Danny Rathjens 04:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can something be said regarding the status of this bill now? ie - So, the bill was declared unconstitutional, but is that the end of it, or is it still somehow in limbo? -- SeekingOne 00:08, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is in limbo. It's in the courts. It will eventually end up in the SCOTUS, for sure. -- NCdave 03:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC).
What does "...partial-birth abortion made in or affecting interstate commerce." actually mean? Can abortions be made in interstate commerce? Please try to be less opaque about this in the intro.
Peter Isotalo 7 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)
Additionally, the definition used in the heading is inaccurate. It currently reads: "Partial-birth abortion is defined in the law as: an abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus and completing the delivery."
The true definition in the law - beginning Page 17, Line 9 reads: "(1) the term 'partial-birth abortion' means an abortion in which -
(A) the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing and overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and...."
A more appropriate shortening of the definition would be: "Partial-birth abortion is defined in the law as: an abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus."
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I find a few lines in this article that seem to try to lean the article to the government's side. It reads like a White House brief. For example, take a look at this line:
Large majorities of the American public? Who can neutraly and specifically say that the act was supported by large majorities? My main problem with that line will be the word majorities because no one can certaintly say if large majorites of americans support such act. It seems rather POVish to me. <<Coburn_Pharr>> 12:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, whenever I have ever questioned a poll that was used on Wikipedia, I was told I was wrong and that the poll is proof. Yet in this situation, the poll is removed. Wikipedia clearly has an anti-human rights bias. 75.2.250.145 03:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone else that chronology is the wrong way to organize this article? This isn't a timeline; it's an encyclopedia entry!
The US is a Representative Democracy. That fact indicates that if a majority of our elected representatives vote in favor of a PBA, then by extension, a majority of the people are in favor of it. This is, of course, until such time that new representatives are elected and the law is either changed or amended to reverse the ban. Then the majority would be against it....
- -- Drocque 02:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What complete nonsense. Richard75 16:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a nice example of why most present systems of parliamentary government are undemocratic. That is, they do not (necessarily) conform to the wishes of the people they govern. I find it very difficult to vote because every party has policies with which I disagree, and I don't want anyone claiming that they have my support because I voted for them. Time for government by referendum? The technology is there to support this (nearly).-- King Hildebrand 15:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it rather pointless having the entire content of the divisions posted here - especially without any linkies? If this information is really needed, could we prune this down to a list of Democrats who voted for, and Republicans who voted against? Morwen - Talk 17:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that the text from the 1995 act could easily be included in the article on PBABA of 2003 -- maybe in a History section
The intro states that the bill "does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself." But the "Status of the law" part has several mention of there being no health exception. -- 219.74.97.2 06:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I second this. It seems like the article contradicts itself in these sections. See, "Objections to this statute are primarily because there is no exemption if the health of a woman is at risk." VERSUS "Despite its finding that "partial-birth abortion… is… unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother", the statute includes the following provision: “ This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself."
There is an exception here it is from the Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003
§1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited (a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. -- Kylehamilton 00:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Recently, the following sentence was inserted or reinserted into the first paragraph: "The medical community does not recognize the term 'partial birth abortion' as an actual medical term or procedure." When I first spotted this reinsertion, it seemed like it warranted at least a footnote, since the "medical community" rarely has a single monolithic view about anything.
Upon further research, I really think that this quoted sentence should either be modified or removed, for several reasons. First of all, it's unclear whether or not this quoted sentence is referring to the word PBA as defined in the federal statute. The definition of PBA in the statute may provide specificity that was not previously provided in the Nebraska statute. The Solicitor General argued to the Supreme Court in November as follows: "[T]his statute, unlike the Nebraska statute, clearly uses an anatomical landmark approach that is based in the text of the statute and clearly distinguishes between the D&E procedure on one hand and the D&X procedure on the other hand." So, it's by no means certain that the entire medical community rejects the federal statutory definition. This is one of the issues in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.
Additionally, even if the reinserted sentence is talking about PBA severed from its federal statutory definition, still there is some authority that at least part of the medical community recognizes it as a valid term. See Gynecologic, Obstetric, and Related Surgery, at 1043; Sprang & Neerhof, Rationale for Banning Abortions Late in Pregnancy, 280 JAMA 744 (Aug. 26, 1998); Bopp & Cook, Partial Birth Abortion: The Final Frontier of Abortion Jurisprudence, 14 Issues in Law and Medicine 3 (1998).
So, I think the reinserted sentence ought to be removed, or maybe it could be rephrased and put into the body of this Wikipedia article. Ferrylodge 06:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The vote counts are all that are needed; the actual list of representives and senators is severely breaking the flow of the article. Jon 20:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Very biased. How can I flag it for a neutrality check? 24.225.242.0 02:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The roll call was reinserted into the article, and I removed it, because no explanation was given. The article provides links to the congressional roll call votes, so I don't see the need to include the whole list of Senators and Representatives in this article. I don't know of any other Wikipedia article about a statute, where the article includes the full roll call. Ferrylodge 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia differers in format from articles to articles. Personally the more information the better. The reader can easily scroll through a list if they don't want to read it. I can understand how the voting role may not have important in 100 years, but being a current event, I think a role call would be valid to some readers. My suggestion is to make it as condensed as possible and put it at the end of the article. But really I could go either way Mantion 07:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As I said I could go either way, I don't think a separate page is needed, but see nothing wrong with it. I still think Wikipedia is in it's infancy and style, layout and formats are not set in stone. I have liked a lot of the changes that we have seen over time and I think when speaking of specific bills and policies, role call is maybe the most relevant information. I think going forward we don't need 2 pages about a bill, that seems silly. If the page is about a bill, then who made it a bill is very relevant. Maybe we should have a 3rd page for which president signs it into law, because he is part of the process as well. Oh and a 4th page for who authored it, and a 5th page for the various organizations that lobbied for and against the bill. Having appendices of relevant information at the end of an article doesn't interrupt flow. Mantion 23:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In creating List of votes for Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, Severa failed to note in the edit summary where it had come from. I agree with the view that only the counts are needed. I have sent the list to AfD. -- RHaworth 07:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
As I quoted in my edit summary, Try to avoid linking to multiple pages from the same website; instead, try to find an appropriate linking page within the site. There is a link to NRLC's "linking page" on the topic of PBA. And then there is a link to one specific article found on that linking page. There is no need for two links from the same cite (when we only have 5 external links to begin with), when the second link can easily be accessed from the first "linking page". Does CouldBeeWorse care to explain why we need 2 links from the same source (and one of the links can be accessed from the other), when the WP:EL guidelines suggest otherwise?- Andrew c 03:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I can see CouldBeeWorses point. but I am not an expert on WP:EL Guidelines. Mantion 07:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The penalties are mentioned at the top of the article, but I feel the discussion of the penalties should be expanded, perhaps farther down in the article.
The penalties for this law are severe:
for the doctor, up to two years imprisonment and a fine
for the doctor, liability for civil prosecution, with trebel damages, and physical and psychological injury damages, with a wide variety of family members and guardians that can bring suit against the doctor.
There's currently no mention of the civil liabilities section in the article.
The law claims the procedures are permissible to save the life of the woman, but it seems to define this as, go ahead and perform the procedure, and you can then justify the facts of the case to your state medical review board.
There are no penalties for the woman, this also isn't mentioned. How best would an expanded penalties section fit into the article flow? Dbackeberg 14:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
"The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) does not recognize the term "partial birth abortion".[6] The American Association of Pro Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists (AAPLOG), a group within the ACOG, disagrees with the ACOG position on "partial birth abortion.""- This sentence is in the article, and while the information is useful, it would be nice if there was an expansion on this sentence. Explain ACOGs position and why AAPLOG doesn't agree with it. 74.138.89.115 03:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC) heather
Does the fact that partial-birth abortion is not a medical term merit inclusion? I mean, the pro-abortion crowd has been using this as a tactic for some time now, and the response to it is fairly well known. If the term "partial-birth abortion" is not to be used, since it's not a medical term, than the use of the phrase "heart attack" should be discontinued immediately, as it's definatly a "non-medical" term that is used much more frequently by the press than partial birth abortion. SpudHawg948 ( talk) (UTC) 02:33, 20 April 2007
(undent) :Andrew c, I've reviewed the PMIDs you cited. The three PMIDs ( PMID 12294330, PMID 9673308, PMID 10404899 ) you cite are from the 1900s. As for the first of the three, it's an article from "Reproductive Freedom News" (1998) and it does not list its authors, so it does not seem like a neutral or authoritative source. As for the second, the abstract of the New England Journal of Medicine (1998) article does not state whether PBA is a "medical term". And, regarding the third of the PMIDs (JAMA 1999), it says "neither the phrase 'late term' nor 'intact dilation' and evacuation is present or defined in any of the partial-birth abortion laws passed in 27 states or in the federal bill," so the author seems to be implying that "intact dilation" is a non-medical term (and no reference is made to the 2003 federal statute).
The term “partial-birth abortion” appears in the Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary. The term had a non-medical origin, but that doesn't mean that it remains non-medical, or that it has to be called non-medical even if it is non-medical. The term appears in medical dictionaries. Why must Wikipedia adopt the pro-choice mantra that it is not a medical term, especially when pro-life groups dispute that it's a non-medical term? [2] We can include the pro-life etymology of the term without endorsing the view that it’s “non-medical.”
Please note that the term " intact dilation and extraction" first appeared in the literature of a pro-choice organization in 1996, and pro-life groups contend that it was a contrived attempt to legitimize the partial birth abortion technique by wedding it to a then-recognized procedure using a sort of legitimacy by association.
Wikipedia should adopt neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice mantra. Saying that PBA is a "non-medical term" is the pro-choice mantra. The article can say that pro-choice groups believe it is a non-medical term, but the article should not say (as it now does) that Wikipedia believes it is a non-medical term. Pro-life groups deny that PBA is a non-medical term. Wikipedia should not take sides [3], by saying that Wikipedia believes PBA is a "non-medical term". Not only do pro-life groups deny it, but also the term appears in medical dictionaries. And, it has no less of a political origin than IDX. All of this can be explained in the article (or not), without taking sides.
I have also reviewed the archives that you asked me to review. I do not understand your argument there: "if PBA is simply a synonymn for IDX, then there is no reason for this article to exist." In any event, even if PBA is a "non-medical term" (a highly contested point), there is no reason for Wikipedia to choose to draw attention to that. We don't draw attention to the non-medical nature of many terms (stroke, heart attack, et cetera). And just because a term had a politicized birth (pun intended), does not mean Wikipedia has to consider the term forever tainted. Ferrylodge 02:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
From the "AMA" (PDF).: "The term 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term. The AMA will use the term "intact dilatation and extraction"(or intact D&X) to refer to a specific procedure comprised of the following elements: deliberate dilatation of the cervix, usually over a sequence of days; instrumental or manual conversion of the fetus to a footling breech; breech extraction of the body excepting the head; and partial evacuation of the intracranial contents of the fetus to effect vaginal delivery of a dead but otherwise intact fetus. This procedure is distinct from dilatation and evacuation (D&E) procedures more commonly used to induce abortion after the first trimester. Because 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term it will not be used by the AMA."- Andrew c 17:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Instead of the sentence in dispute, I've added the following at the end of the lead:
“ | The American Medical Association (AMA) asserts that "the term 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term." Nevertheless, the United States Supreme Court has determined — and the AMA has not disputed — that "A straightforward reading of the Act's text demonstrates its purpose and the scope of its provisions: It regulates and proscribes, with exceptions or qualifications to be discussed, performing the intact D&E procedure." | ” |
This should be at the end of the lead, because all this fuss about nomenclature would make the readers' eyes glaze over if it were in the first paragraph which already talks about nomenclature. Anyway, I could live with this paragraph, although I really don't think it's necessary. It's not clear what the AMA means when they say it's not a medical term, and that's why it's also necessary to explain that the Act indisputedly DOES regulate a medical procedure. Ferrylodge 01:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit conflict]:::::::Why focus on the ACOG, when the AMA is larger, more notable, and not an amicus? I think it is more important to note these organizations' opinions on the terminology used in this act then to mention the terminology that these organizations have adapted themselves. The act IS called the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, not the Intact Dilation and Evacuation Ban Act. The only reason we have the information regarding what these organizations call the procedure is because you didn't like simply wikilinking to the article without mentioning the alleged naming controversy between the two organizations. All interesting stuff, but I find it not that important to include in the lead. Just a link to the article on the medical procedure (whatever you want to call it) would be fine by my. What is more important is what these notable medical organizations say about the terminology used in the title of the act. Namely that PBA is not a medical term. And now that I look, why was the background information on how the term was coined removed from the lead?-
Andrew c
01:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding your quoted text, I oppose adding that original research to the lead. It may be notable to mention the courts finding, but your wording is very misleading. You have little asides and commentary stuck all throughout. The two sentences are non-sequitor. Whether the court found the phrasing vague or not has no being on whether the term is a medically recognized term. - Andrew c 01:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This was added a few months ago before the court decision was released, and before this article had all the attention, so it sat untouched for a couple months. It has been removed by a couple different editors, and I would like to discuss removing it here. I think it would be a good edition to have a section on public opinion regarding the PBA Ban. But it makes no sense to mention public opinion in the lead when we don't discuss it later in the article, and it makes no sense to discuss public opinion on a different issue. As noted in the rest of the paragraph, this law wasn't about all 2nd/3rd trimester abortions, but instead a specific procedure. The purpose of that sentence almost acts to editorialize, implying that perhaps the law should have banned all late term abortions. Also, it isn't acceptable to cite wikipedia. While it may seem like a hassle, we need to use the citations found on the linked to page instead of simply linking to the page. I propose removing the mention of public opinion on 2nd tri abortion from the lead, and if we every get a public opinion section that deals with PBA, perhaps mention it there (and mention public opinion regarding the Ban in the lead).- Andrew c 15:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a page with 2 sourced, but the latest info they have is from 2000, which is before the topic of this article even existed. Then there is this which has one poll from 06, and a few from 03.- Andrew c 15:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the first graf to be factually accurate. The previous version said that the PBA Act outlawed IDX. It did not. IDX is not found anywhere in the text of the Act. The law outlawed "partial-birth abortion" which is not a medical procedure. The graf is now accurate. Viciouslies 20:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Ferrylodge - by reverting my edits, you have reinserted information into the first graf which is factually inaccurate. The PBA Act does NOT outlaw "intact dilation and extraction." It outlaws "partial-birth abortion." Before reinserting any assertion that the PBA Act outlaws "intact dilation and extraction" please show me where, in the text of the act, the phrase "intact dilation and extraction" appears.
Second, you assert that "partial-birth abortion" is just as legitimate a medical term as "intact dilation and extraction." Here's a link to an abstract of an article, which appeared in a peer-reviewed medical journal, and defines the medical procedure known as intact dilation and extraction [4] Please show me an article in a peer-reviewed medical journal or medical text that defines the medical procedure known as partial-birth abortion. If you cannot, please stop asserting that it is a "medical term." Viciouslies 01:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Viciouslies, is the following sentence correct? "Decades of judicial precedent support the right of women to obtain second trimester abortions without regard to the woman's reasons." If it's factually correct, then can we please leave it that way? Thanks. And I don't recall that I put anything into the article asserting that "partial-birth abortion" is a medical term. I've repeatedly said that there is no need for the article to say one way or the other. Ferrylodge 02:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I confused. Isn't this article about a specific bill that passed? If the bill doesn't refer to a term, why include it. It also isn't a place to debate the reason for the people to get an abortion. Or when a women might get an abortion. The bill doesn't care the age of the fetus. I have nothing wrong with describing the procedure specifically banned in the bill but see no reason to include terms not relevant to the bill. I suggest we remove the different terms not used in the bill and explain the actual procedure that is banned. Diagrams might be useful in the description of the act made illegal. This article is about the Bill that became law, not the procedure or why it might be done. Mantion 03:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on the federal legal definition has just been considerably expanded. This section now includes etymological and definitional material that is not directly related to the federal statute.
These etymological and definitional issues are already covered in the article on Intact dilation and extraction; if there's a need to include some or all of that stuff here in this article, then it could just be copied, instead of starting this whole controversy from square one. Can't we just keep this controversy at one article, instead of having some kind of Content Forking here? Ferrylodge 22:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous person recently deleted some info about reasons for late abortions. The edit summary said: "I deleted the explanation of reasons why women would have this procedure, as it is NEVER done out of convenience or due to not wanting a child, and to imply otherwise is inflammatory." The deleted material is as follows:
“ | Health is one of several reasons why women have chosen to get second trimester abortions, and then this particular procedure has been chosen for additional reasons. | ” |
There are two wikilinks here, and there has been no assertion that either one of them contains inaccurate or irrelevant information. Both of these wikilinks seem to contain accurate and relevant information. Therefore, I'll revert the edit, and would encourage further discussion and explanation. Ferrylodge 01:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the title of the last section from "Effect" to the more meaningful title "Clinical response". The section describes the response to the PBA Ban by clinicians, who now induce fetal demise before beginning any late-term abortion procedure in order to avoid violating the ban, which only bans the procedure if it is done on LIVING fetuses. I have also updated the section with more info on how fetal demise is induced, and with a reference to a medical review article on the subject. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 07:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
The killing of the fetus is a secondary step to induction & c-section in partial birth abortions of viable fetuses. The killing of the fetus, such as by jamming scissors or a scalpel in its head, is not medically necessary for the health of the mother. Therefore partial birth abortions cannot be medically necessary under any circumstance. Hence the medical exception clause being left out of the ban and yet Supreme Court upheld it.
Induce or c-section and that's it, then the baby is in the custody of the state. That's often lost in the discussions about the ban. It does not stop induction or c-section for whatever reason at whatever date and there's a push now to make sure the baby becomes a ward of the state. Now they are making sure hospitals comply and don't start engaging in euthanasia or neglect.
2605:A000:1301:8B09:A5F2:18A9:3613:A902 ( talk) 03:19, 31 January 2019 (UTC) Reticuli
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It would be considerably more balanced if the strong "pro" quote were paired with an equally strong "con" quote - anyone have one?
Pro-choice groups oppose the law on three grounds:
Wait I thought the reason for outlawing 3rd trimester abortions was because the fetus could live outside the womb. Even most pro-choice groups agree with this. This is outlawing killing a baby thats basically been born and can survive outside the womb, I don't see the opposition... Redwolf24 9 July 2005 10:08 (UTC)
"There may be no known precedent"? Either there is or there isn't, right? Or is there a contested precedent? -- Danny Rathjens 04:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can something be said regarding the status of this bill now? ie - So, the bill was declared unconstitutional, but is that the end of it, or is it still somehow in limbo? -- SeekingOne 00:08, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is in limbo. It's in the courts. It will eventually end up in the SCOTUS, for sure. -- NCdave 03:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC).
What does "...partial-birth abortion made in or affecting interstate commerce." actually mean? Can abortions be made in interstate commerce? Please try to be less opaque about this in the intro.
Peter Isotalo 7 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)
Additionally, the definition used in the heading is inaccurate. It currently reads: "Partial-birth abortion is defined in the law as: an abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus and completing the delivery."
The true definition in the law - beginning Page 17, Line 9 reads: "(1) the term 'partial-birth abortion' means an abortion in which -
(A) the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing and overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and...."
A more appropriate shortening of the definition would be: "Partial-birth abortion is defined in the law as: an abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus."
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I find a few lines in this article that seem to try to lean the article to the government's side. It reads like a White House brief. For example, take a look at this line:
Large majorities of the American public? Who can neutraly and specifically say that the act was supported by large majorities? My main problem with that line will be the word majorities because no one can certaintly say if large majorites of americans support such act. It seems rather POVish to me. <<Coburn_Pharr>> 12:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, whenever I have ever questioned a poll that was used on Wikipedia, I was told I was wrong and that the poll is proof. Yet in this situation, the poll is removed. Wikipedia clearly has an anti-human rights bias. 75.2.250.145 03:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone else that chronology is the wrong way to organize this article? This isn't a timeline; it's an encyclopedia entry!
The US is a Representative Democracy. That fact indicates that if a majority of our elected representatives vote in favor of a PBA, then by extension, a majority of the people are in favor of it. This is, of course, until such time that new representatives are elected and the law is either changed or amended to reverse the ban. Then the majority would be against it....
- -- Drocque 02:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
What complete nonsense. Richard75 16:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a nice example of why most present systems of parliamentary government are undemocratic. That is, they do not (necessarily) conform to the wishes of the people they govern. I find it very difficult to vote because every party has policies with which I disagree, and I don't want anyone claiming that they have my support because I voted for them. Time for government by referendum? The technology is there to support this (nearly).-- King Hildebrand 15:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it rather pointless having the entire content of the divisions posted here - especially without any linkies? If this information is really needed, could we prune this down to a list of Democrats who voted for, and Republicans who voted against? Morwen - Talk 17:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that the text from the 1995 act could easily be included in the article on PBABA of 2003 -- maybe in a History section
The intro states that the bill "does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself." But the "Status of the law" part has several mention of there being no health exception. -- 219.74.97.2 06:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I second this. It seems like the article contradicts itself in these sections. See, "Objections to this statute are primarily because there is no exemption if the health of a woman is at risk." VERSUS "Despite its finding that "partial-birth abortion… is… unnecessary to preserve the health of the mother", the statute includes the following provision: “ This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself."
There is an exception here it is from the Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003
§1531. Partial-birth abortions prohibited (a) Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both. This subsection does not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself. -- Kylehamilton 00:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Recently, the following sentence was inserted or reinserted into the first paragraph: "The medical community does not recognize the term 'partial birth abortion' as an actual medical term or procedure." When I first spotted this reinsertion, it seemed like it warranted at least a footnote, since the "medical community" rarely has a single monolithic view about anything.
Upon further research, I really think that this quoted sentence should either be modified or removed, for several reasons. First of all, it's unclear whether or not this quoted sentence is referring to the word PBA as defined in the federal statute. The definition of PBA in the statute may provide specificity that was not previously provided in the Nebraska statute. The Solicitor General argued to the Supreme Court in November as follows: "[T]his statute, unlike the Nebraska statute, clearly uses an anatomical landmark approach that is based in the text of the statute and clearly distinguishes between the D&E procedure on one hand and the D&X procedure on the other hand." So, it's by no means certain that the entire medical community rejects the federal statutory definition. This is one of the issues in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.
Additionally, even if the reinserted sentence is talking about PBA severed from its federal statutory definition, still there is some authority that at least part of the medical community recognizes it as a valid term. See Gynecologic, Obstetric, and Related Surgery, at 1043; Sprang & Neerhof, Rationale for Banning Abortions Late in Pregnancy, 280 JAMA 744 (Aug. 26, 1998); Bopp & Cook, Partial Birth Abortion: The Final Frontier of Abortion Jurisprudence, 14 Issues in Law and Medicine 3 (1998).
So, I think the reinserted sentence ought to be removed, or maybe it could be rephrased and put into the body of this Wikipedia article. Ferrylodge 06:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The vote counts are all that are needed; the actual list of representives and senators is severely breaking the flow of the article. Jon 20:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Very biased. How can I flag it for a neutrality check? 24.225.242.0 02:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The roll call was reinserted into the article, and I removed it, because no explanation was given. The article provides links to the congressional roll call votes, so I don't see the need to include the whole list of Senators and Representatives in this article. I don't know of any other Wikipedia article about a statute, where the article includes the full roll call. Ferrylodge 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia differers in format from articles to articles. Personally the more information the better. The reader can easily scroll through a list if they don't want to read it. I can understand how the voting role may not have important in 100 years, but being a current event, I think a role call would be valid to some readers. My suggestion is to make it as condensed as possible and put it at the end of the article. But really I could go either way Mantion 07:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As I said I could go either way, I don't think a separate page is needed, but see nothing wrong with it. I still think Wikipedia is in it's infancy and style, layout and formats are not set in stone. I have liked a lot of the changes that we have seen over time and I think when speaking of specific bills and policies, role call is maybe the most relevant information. I think going forward we don't need 2 pages about a bill, that seems silly. If the page is about a bill, then who made it a bill is very relevant. Maybe we should have a 3rd page for which president signs it into law, because he is part of the process as well. Oh and a 4th page for who authored it, and a 5th page for the various organizations that lobbied for and against the bill. Having appendices of relevant information at the end of an article doesn't interrupt flow. Mantion 23:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In creating List of votes for Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, Severa failed to note in the edit summary where it had come from. I agree with the view that only the counts are needed. I have sent the list to AfD. -- RHaworth 07:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
As I quoted in my edit summary, Try to avoid linking to multiple pages from the same website; instead, try to find an appropriate linking page within the site. There is a link to NRLC's "linking page" on the topic of PBA. And then there is a link to one specific article found on that linking page. There is no need for two links from the same cite (when we only have 5 external links to begin with), when the second link can easily be accessed from the first "linking page". Does CouldBeeWorse care to explain why we need 2 links from the same source (and one of the links can be accessed from the other), when the WP:EL guidelines suggest otherwise?- Andrew c 03:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I can see CouldBeeWorses point. but I am not an expert on WP:EL Guidelines. Mantion 07:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The penalties are mentioned at the top of the article, but I feel the discussion of the penalties should be expanded, perhaps farther down in the article.
The penalties for this law are severe:
for the doctor, up to two years imprisonment and a fine
for the doctor, liability for civil prosecution, with trebel damages, and physical and psychological injury damages, with a wide variety of family members and guardians that can bring suit against the doctor.
There's currently no mention of the civil liabilities section in the article.
The law claims the procedures are permissible to save the life of the woman, but it seems to define this as, go ahead and perform the procedure, and you can then justify the facts of the case to your state medical review board.
There are no penalties for the woman, this also isn't mentioned. How best would an expanded penalties section fit into the article flow? Dbackeberg 14:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
"The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) does not recognize the term "partial birth abortion".[6] The American Association of Pro Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists (AAPLOG), a group within the ACOG, disagrees with the ACOG position on "partial birth abortion.""- This sentence is in the article, and while the information is useful, it would be nice if there was an expansion on this sentence. Explain ACOGs position and why AAPLOG doesn't agree with it. 74.138.89.115 03:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC) heather
Does the fact that partial-birth abortion is not a medical term merit inclusion? I mean, the pro-abortion crowd has been using this as a tactic for some time now, and the response to it is fairly well known. If the term "partial-birth abortion" is not to be used, since it's not a medical term, than the use of the phrase "heart attack" should be discontinued immediately, as it's definatly a "non-medical" term that is used much more frequently by the press than partial birth abortion. SpudHawg948 ( talk) (UTC) 02:33, 20 April 2007
(undent) :Andrew c, I've reviewed the PMIDs you cited. The three PMIDs ( PMID 12294330, PMID 9673308, PMID 10404899 ) you cite are from the 1900s. As for the first of the three, it's an article from "Reproductive Freedom News" (1998) and it does not list its authors, so it does not seem like a neutral or authoritative source. As for the second, the abstract of the New England Journal of Medicine (1998) article does not state whether PBA is a "medical term". And, regarding the third of the PMIDs (JAMA 1999), it says "neither the phrase 'late term' nor 'intact dilation' and evacuation is present or defined in any of the partial-birth abortion laws passed in 27 states or in the federal bill," so the author seems to be implying that "intact dilation" is a non-medical term (and no reference is made to the 2003 federal statute).
The term “partial-birth abortion” appears in the Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary. The term had a non-medical origin, but that doesn't mean that it remains non-medical, or that it has to be called non-medical even if it is non-medical. The term appears in medical dictionaries. Why must Wikipedia adopt the pro-choice mantra that it is not a medical term, especially when pro-life groups dispute that it's a non-medical term? [2] We can include the pro-life etymology of the term without endorsing the view that it’s “non-medical.”
Please note that the term " intact dilation and extraction" first appeared in the literature of a pro-choice organization in 1996, and pro-life groups contend that it was a contrived attempt to legitimize the partial birth abortion technique by wedding it to a then-recognized procedure using a sort of legitimacy by association.
Wikipedia should adopt neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice mantra. Saying that PBA is a "non-medical term" is the pro-choice mantra. The article can say that pro-choice groups believe it is a non-medical term, but the article should not say (as it now does) that Wikipedia believes it is a non-medical term. Pro-life groups deny that PBA is a non-medical term. Wikipedia should not take sides [3], by saying that Wikipedia believes PBA is a "non-medical term". Not only do pro-life groups deny it, but also the term appears in medical dictionaries. And, it has no less of a political origin than IDX. All of this can be explained in the article (or not), without taking sides.
I have also reviewed the archives that you asked me to review. I do not understand your argument there: "if PBA is simply a synonymn for IDX, then there is no reason for this article to exist." In any event, even if PBA is a "non-medical term" (a highly contested point), there is no reason for Wikipedia to choose to draw attention to that. We don't draw attention to the non-medical nature of many terms (stroke, heart attack, et cetera). And just because a term had a politicized birth (pun intended), does not mean Wikipedia has to consider the term forever tainted. Ferrylodge 02:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
From the "AMA" (PDF).: "The term 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term. The AMA will use the term "intact dilatation and extraction"(or intact D&X) to refer to a specific procedure comprised of the following elements: deliberate dilatation of the cervix, usually over a sequence of days; instrumental or manual conversion of the fetus to a footling breech; breech extraction of the body excepting the head; and partial evacuation of the intracranial contents of the fetus to effect vaginal delivery of a dead but otherwise intact fetus. This procedure is distinct from dilatation and evacuation (D&E) procedures more commonly used to induce abortion after the first trimester. Because 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term it will not be used by the AMA."- Andrew c 17:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Instead of the sentence in dispute, I've added the following at the end of the lead:
“ | The American Medical Association (AMA) asserts that "the term 'partial birth abortion' is not a medical term." Nevertheless, the United States Supreme Court has determined — and the AMA has not disputed — that "A straightforward reading of the Act's text demonstrates its purpose and the scope of its provisions: It regulates and proscribes, with exceptions or qualifications to be discussed, performing the intact D&E procedure." | ” |
This should be at the end of the lead, because all this fuss about nomenclature would make the readers' eyes glaze over if it were in the first paragraph which already talks about nomenclature. Anyway, I could live with this paragraph, although I really don't think it's necessary. It's not clear what the AMA means when they say it's not a medical term, and that's why it's also necessary to explain that the Act indisputedly DOES regulate a medical procedure. Ferrylodge 01:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit conflict]:::::::Why focus on the ACOG, when the AMA is larger, more notable, and not an amicus? I think it is more important to note these organizations' opinions on the terminology used in this act then to mention the terminology that these organizations have adapted themselves. The act IS called the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, not the Intact Dilation and Evacuation Ban Act. The only reason we have the information regarding what these organizations call the procedure is because you didn't like simply wikilinking to the article without mentioning the alleged naming controversy between the two organizations. All interesting stuff, but I find it not that important to include in the lead. Just a link to the article on the medical procedure (whatever you want to call it) would be fine by my. What is more important is what these notable medical organizations say about the terminology used in the title of the act. Namely that PBA is not a medical term. And now that I look, why was the background information on how the term was coined removed from the lead?-
Andrew c
01:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding your quoted text, I oppose adding that original research to the lead. It may be notable to mention the courts finding, but your wording is very misleading. You have little asides and commentary stuck all throughout. The two sentences are non-sequitor. Whether the court found the phrasing vague or not has no being on whether the term is a medically recognized term. - Andrew c 01:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
This was added a few months ago before the court decision was released, and before this article had all the attention, so it sat untouched for a couple months. It has been removed by a couple different editors, and I would like to discuss removing it here. I think it would be a good edition to have a section on public opinion regarding the PBA Ban. But it makes no sense to mention public opinion in the lead when we don't discuss it later in the article, and it makes no sense to discuss public opinion on a different issue. As noted in the rest of the paragraph, this law wasn't about all 2nd/3rd trimester abortions, but instead a specific procedure. The purpose of that sentence almost acts to editorialize, implying that perhaps the law should have banned all late term abortions. Also, it isn't acceptable to cite wikipedia. While it may seem like a hassle, we need to use the citations found on the linked to page instead of simply linking to the page. I propose removing the mention of public opinion on 2nd tri abortion from the lead, and if we every get a public opinion section that deals with PBA, perhaps mention it there (and mention public opinion regarding the Ban in the lead).- Andrew c 15:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a page with 2 sourced, but the latest info they have is from 2000, which is before the topic of this article even existed. Then there is this which has one poll from 06, and a few from 03.- Andrew c 15:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the first graf to be factually accurate. The previous version said that the PBA Act outlawed IDX. It did not. IDX is not found anywhere in the text of the Act. The law outlawed "partial-birth abortion" which is not a medical procedure. The graf is now accurate. Viciouslies 20:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Ferrylodge - by reverting my edits, you have reinserted information into the first graf which is factually inaccurate. The PBA Act does NOT outlaw "intact dilation and extraction." It outlaws "partial-birth abortion." Before reinserting any assertion that the PBA Act outlaws "intact dilation and extraction" please show me where, in the text of the act, the phrase "intact dilation and extraction" appears.
Second, you assert that "partial-birth abortion" is just as legitimate a medical term as "intact dilation and extraction." Here's a link to an abstract of an article, which appeared in a peer-reviewed medical journal, and defines the medical procedure known as intact dilation and extraction [4] Please show me an article in a peer-reviewed medical journal or medical text that defines the medical procedure known as partial-birth abortion. If you cannot, please stop asserting that it is a "medical term." Viciouslies 01:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Viciouslies, is the following sentence correct? "Decades of judicial precedent support the right of women to obtain second trimester abortions without regard to the woman's reasons." If it's factually correct, then can we please leave it that way? Thanks. And I don't recall that I put anything into the article asserting that "partial-birth abortion" is a medical term. I've repeatedly said that there is no need for the article to say one way or the other. Ferrylodge 02:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I confused. Isn't this article about a specific bill that passed? If the bill doesn't refer to a term, why include it. It also isn't a place to debate the reason for the people to get an abortion. Or when a women might get an abortion. The bill doesn't care the age of the fetus. I have nothing wrong with describing the procedure specifically banned in the bill but see no reason to include terms not relevant to the bill. I suggest we remove the different terms not used in the bill and explain the actual procedure that is banned. Diagrams might be useful in the description of the act made illegal. This article is about the Bill that became law, not the procedure or why it might be done. Mantion 03:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on the federal legal definition has just been considerably expanded. This section now includes etymological and definitional material that is not directly related to the federal statute.
These etymological and definitional issues are already covered in the article on Intact dilation and extraction; if there's a need to include some or all of that stuff here in this article, then it could just be copied, instead of starting this whole controversy from square one. Can't we just keep this controversy at one article, instead of having some kind of Content Forking here? Ferrylodge 22:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous person recently deleted some info about reasons for late abortions. The edit summary said: "I deleted the explanation of reasons why women would have this procedure, as it is NEVER done out of convenience or due to not wanting a child, and to imply otherwise is inflammatory." The deleted material is as follows:
“ | Health is one of several reasons why women have chosen to get second trimester abortions, and then this particular procedure has been chosen for additional reasons. | ” |
There are two wikilinks here, and there has been no assertion that either one of them contains inaccurate or irrelevant information. Both of these wikilinks seem to contain accurate and relevant information. Therefore, I'll revert the edit, and would encourage further discussion and explanation. Ferrylodge 01:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the title of the last section from "Effect" to the more meaningful title "Clinical response". The section describes the response to the PBA Ban by clinicians, who now induce fetal demise before beginning any late-term abortion procedure in order to avoid violating the ban, which only bans the procedure if it is done on LIVING fetuses. I have also updated the section with more info on how fetal demise is induced, and with a reference to a medical review article on the subject. Goblinshark17 ( talk) 07:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
The killing of the fetus is a secondary step to induction & c-section in partial birth abortions of viable fetuses. The killing of the fetus, such as by jamming scissors or a scalpel in its head, is not medically necessary for the health of the mother. Therefore partial birth abortions cannot be medically necessary under any circumstance. Hence the medical exception clause being left out of the ban and yet Supreme Court upheld it.
Induce or c-section and that's it, then the baby is in the custody of the state. That's often lost in the discussions about the ban. It does not stop induction or c-section for whatever reason at whatever date and there's a push now to make sure the baby becomes a ward of the state. Now they are making sure hospitals comply and don't start engaging in euthanasia or neglect.
2605:A000:1301:8B09:A5F2:18A9:3613:A902 ( talk) 03:19, 31 January 2019 (UTC) Reticuli