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Now that this article is split off, it seems like a good candidate for expansion. I think the public awareness piece is especially interesting. Anyone have good sources? Sam 15:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I added photo, and removed request. Dagoldman 07:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
QUESTION: "Regardless of the cause, the result was that Roosevelt was totally and permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He could sit up and, with aid of leg braces, stand upright, but could not walk."
I saw footage of FDR walking on a carrier (meeting Churchill) despite agony. So this is probably incorrect.
Roosevelt could not take more than a step or so on his own. When he walked it was with the aid of one of his sons or an aide. He had to put his weight on his cane, swing the other side of his body forward, then put his weight on the arm of his companion while moving the side with the cane forward. His sons were trained to take the weight without any indication that they were doing anything more than guiding him. He could move on his own to some degree if he had a railing to grip. Saxophobia 09:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad this interesting article has now been split off, but thought it needed to be clearer throughout some parts of the text that the whole thesis is based on one recent peer-reviewed study. And as the authors of that study point out, everything about Roosevelt's case clear is consistent with his having had polio. It's just a question of what is statistically most probable, using a lot of plausible assumptions about disease incidence and symptom probability. So I made minor edits to fix this. Agree? Posidonious ( talk) 21:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
See my response below. What errors did you detect? And what kind of speculation are you referring to? I didn't see any speculation. The publication says "Six of eight posterior probabilities strongly favoured Guillain–Barre´ syndrome." and "retrospective analysis favours the diagnosis of GBS". So the publication definitely asserts that the diagnosis of polio is in doubt and he more likely had GBS. On the other hand, the publication never says "FDR did not have polio", "FDR had GBS", or anything close to that. Neither does the wikipedia article. I do agree that "FDR does not have polio" is an unwarranted conclusion. But the statement "FDR had polio" is much more unwarranted at this point. And what's the harm in the reader mistakenly concluding "FDR did not have polio" vs even more mistakenly concluding "FDR had polio"? What are you afraid of? We don't know what FDR suffered from, but it currently seems more likely GBS than polio. It's nothing to get upset about or worry about. It's just the truth, as best we know it. The resulting paralysis is a fact, no matter what the cause. There is no reason to "defend" polio or "defend" GBS. Just look at the evidence. And there are great numbers of doctors, statisticians and epidemiologists competent to do a rebuttal. You choose to ignore that there is no rebuttal, and make unsubstantiated statements about "errors" and "speculation". 174.31.152.161 ( talk) 09:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
As a unbiased third party here, I have two observations: 1) as it appears now, it is painfully clear where in the section the writer and point of view changes. 2) While both the pro-GBS half and the pro-polio half seem to be favoring their particular diagnosis, the pro-polio paragraphs tacked on is written in a transparently dismissive and hostile way. The pro-GBS half is written in a very professional manner, however if it is in fact the case that it represents a fringe view (I don't know, and can't figure it out based on the article and talk page in their current forms), then it also needs to be rewritten to reflect such. The 130 degree turn the section makes into the pro-polio half needs to be rewritten in a professional encyclopedic manner that doesn't make the reader do a double take and check to make sure they didn't accidentally jump to the talk page. -Paul (on iPhone) 12/13/13 around midnight. 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 08:21, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree there’s a lot of professional, encyclopedic text in here from the 2003 study, and somebody spent a lot of time on it. But the 2003 study was discredited in a 2016 review, for ignoring several symptoms of both GBS and polio in order to artificially come up with a pro GBS conclusion.
Debdelilah ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Also, polio had a more severe course of disease for people who got it in adulthood, with the severe paralytic version leading to death in up to 30 percent of adults who got it. As the CDC website shows, adults were also at risk and suffered paralysis from polio. The survivors list here features several of them. There is no need to show someone lived in a bubble or had a genetic predisposition. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Last point and sorry for so many posts. The study claims a 99 percent certainty of GBS diagnosis in a person who was never tested for GBS and was never personally examined by the doctor who authored it. It makes a blanket statement that FDR didn’t have symptoms consistent with polio even though his doctors at the time said the opposite. It ignores the existence of post polio syndrome in calculating the odds, even though PPS has been known about for decades and would resolve any doubts about an adult catching polio. And last, it assumes that cases of adult polio were always being diagnosed correctly in 1921. While the CDC knows today about adult transmission, back then the disease was known as infantile paralysis. Relying on numbers of diagnoses in adults at that time would be unreliable. Roosevelt’s own first diagnosis he received in 1921 was age related spinal damage. It was only after the cure made things worse that experts at the time diagnosed polio. Debdelilah ( talk) 00:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27178375/ This is the 2016 study that discredited the 2003 study. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Basically, my concern is that as mentioned in talk before, the doctor responsible for the 2003 study was heavily responsible for creating this section of the Wikipedia page. Without having a staff or a heavily weighted interest to improving the page with hours of time or hundreds of dollars, I can’t make a point by point criticism of the study myself. I would suggest reaching out to the doctors who did the counter study if possible. But just as a layperson reading through this, some things just seem wrong. For instance, why is a conclusion reached based on Roosevelt having recovered some use of his upper body? If you read accounts of other polio survivors, many of them made partial recoveries. But given the circumstances of the era, it’s less clear that every circumstance of recovery and order of recovery would be described in a scientific study. Also, the study cites data about numbers of adults in Roosevelt’s age group who had a new polio diagnosis in his region of the country in 1921. So it operates on the presumption that those numbers are accurate for the statistical analysis. But then it also calls in question the ability of Roosevelt’s doctors, who were experts, to diagnose polio correctly. If he was calling in question the ability of doctors to diagnose the disease, how can he rely on statistics from the time? GBS was first diagnosed in 1916, when only two cases in the entire world had been documented. It is still known as a rare disease today. Meanwhile, polio was common in 1921, though it was not diagnosed as often in adults. If you read through the case accounts in the broader article about polio survivors, you can see several accounts of older children and adults who first went through a misdiagnosis prior to polio being identified. You can also see a reference in the 1920 American Journal of Nursing stressing that “infantile paralysis” was a misnomer and that the course of disease was in fact more severe in adults. And last, post-polio syndrome, which has its own article on Wikipedia, would also cause symptoms of polio to occur in adulthood even if one first caught the disease in childhood. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3407822.pdf Debdelilah ( talk) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Further issues were, the article makes it seem like the experts who diagnosed polio did so after a cursory examination. But as the 2016 study points out, Roosevelt was under expert treatment for polio from 1921 to 1924. And the article claims a 99.9 percent probability for GBS over polio even though GBS is rare and the majority of people who have it don’t have the length or severity of symptoms that Roosevelt had. So, even if there is a chance that Roosevelt had GBS, calling it a virtual certainty seems excessive, especially in light of the 2016 study. It also introduces a question of bias, because polio is a virtually eradicated disease, while GBS is a modern rare disease with an unknown cause. The 2003 study was widely publicized in TV bios of Roosevelt, bringing attention to GBS. But it may have done so at the cost of rewriting history or, as the 2016 study claims, using data in a manipulative way. Debdelilah ( talk) 13:23, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
And while his upper body was weak at one point in the illness, there’s no indication he was paralyzed in the upper body, so the ascending symmetrical paralysis 99 percent in favor of GBS seems overblown. First one leg became paralyzed and then the other. This was not a statistically unlikely circumstance for adults with polio. As you can see, experts today describe it as sometimes affecting one side of the body, sometimes both. https://www.healthline.com/health/poliomyelitis#causes. It’s unclear why all the symptoms in favor of GBS are weighted with 98 or 99 percent weight of likelihood. Roosevelt had symptoms of a disease in 2015 and 2017 that might be similar to a disease people get before getting GBS. But as other sources say, most people who have GBS get this disease with six weeks of when symptoms start, not years before. So why 99 percent weight to this? https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/guillain-barre-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20362793 Debdelilah ( talk) 13:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I reached out to Dr. Bruce E. Becker by email; he is one of the three doctors who conducted the 2016 study. I linked to the article and I hope he or one of the others will follow up. My interest was first piqued in this when someone posted about FDR and GBS on Facebook saying things like “most people can’t catch polio past the age of four” and expressing doubt that an adult could even catch the illness. And the CDC website clearly says adults can catch it. It was as though if it said it on TV, that was enough, people don’t look further. I personally wish that like most encyclopedic entries, the 2003 study had appeared as a summary with a link. Instead it went into hundreds of points of detail. A doctor who spent years researching can come up with this level of detail. But a non-doctor who sees opposing studies would be more able to easily add to a summary than to something that goes to this degree of point by point depth. Debdelilah ( talk) 14:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/212768 Above is an article about the use of lumbar puncture to diagnose polio in 1910. In 1921, we could assume experts would have known about this as a diagnostic tool. Without proof that it was done or not done, it would be unwise to assume it was not done. Again, not claiming polio is a certain diagnosis. Just questioning the 99.9 percent certainty of GBS. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Among the assertions in the 2016 study is that Roosevelt’s doctor, Lovett, in fact knew about GBS, and published information about it in his 1916 textbook. So he did not diagnose polio because of ignorance of GBS. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:43, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
DiscussionThe diagnosis and prognosis of polio based on therecords of physicians and therapists who ex amined FDRduring his illness requires an und erstanding of thecriteria used at that time. In 1922, the year after hisinitial examination of FDR, Lovett published his diag-nostic criteria based on his obse rvation of more than5000 cases. Lovett summarized his diagnostic criteria asfollows: a scattered, irregular, widely spread loss of motorpower on one or both sides; no diminution of sensation in affected parts; and diminution or loss of reflexes in the parts affected[24].The recent Center for Disease Control case definitionfor paralytic poliomyelitis identifies the same features;“Acute onset of a flaccid paralys is of one or more limbswith decreased or absent tendon reflexes in t... More from the 2016 study is quoted above. Roosevelt’s doctor was an expert in polio and had come up with criteria to diagnose it that matches modern day criteria. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Adults have a greater incidence of severe pain onday1,usuallyinthelumbarregionwithagreaterincidence of prodromal hyperesthesia [47].These3features clearly were present in FDR’s case. Childrenhave a much greater frequency of monoplegia, with arecorded incidence of 85%-91% in more than 500 casesof spinal paralytic polio [64]. This pattern in childrenis likely the basis for the criterion of asymmetry citedin the literature [56,61,65]. Adults older than 30years of, however, have 4-extremity paralysis in mo rethan 50% (74/141) cases, which was the patt ern inFDR’s case. Bladder paralysis “a common feature inadults (> 40%). is most infrequent in children. Another quote from the 2016 study. Roosevelt’s course of illness was typical of an adult with polio. The 2003 study used general polio statistics, not polio statistics in adults. The CDC’s diagnostics and knowledge include modern day identification of the virus in infected adults; there is no reason to believe adult diagnoses of polio were not polio. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
More from the 2016 study, referencing symptoms that had been used to cross compare polio and GBS likelihood: Of 11 clinical features listed in Table 3 [5], only 2(fever and permanent paralysis) are listed as favoringpolio. Many of the remaining 9 features are flawed,such as listing FDR’s progression of paralysis at 10-13days. Lovett’s notes indicate that by August 13th, 3 daysafter symptom onset he had become paraplegic, andKeen reported on August 14th that he “had lost theability to move his legs though not to feel” [26]. Anotherfeature, dysesthesia, is listed as absent in polio, illus-trating a lack of awareness of the literature (Lovett;Draper; Horstman) regarding the typical presence ofhyperesthesia/sensi tiveness in polio as well as theclinical observations by the clinicians who examinedFDR and reported on his hyperesthesia/sensitiveness[24,45,46]. It appears that the authors of the 2003 papermay have interpreted symptoms of cutaneous hyperes-thesia, common in polio, with the dysesthesias associ-ated with GBS.Another error within their 9 listed factors is bladderparalysis, which is described as lasting 1-3 days in polio.Lovett offers the association of abdominal, pelvic floor,and girdle paralysis as features associated with pro-longed urinary retention in polio [24]. The patterns ofrecovery that clearly distinguish polio from GBS ingeneral, and especially in FDR’s case, are the majordifferences in residual proximal muscle weaknessin polio contraste d with distal weakness in GBS[47,48,50,69,70]. Finally, the severity of the FDR’simpairment and wheelchair mobility, which may occurin up to 20% of the polio population, is not reported innon-bulbar GBS [55,59]. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I can’t disagree that some of the language in the 2016 is very strongly worded. And I’m not a doctor myself. As I said, I contacted one of the doctors who conducted the study. Whether you make the edits is Wikipedia’s decision. I do feel strongly about the issue for reasons I can’t put my finger on. But I believe it’s probably the political environment right now. People post studies saying one thing or another and behind it is usually one interest group or another funding the study. In this case, there is more to read than just the abstract, and I would suggest anyone interested could read it on Wiley Library for a few dollars. Myself, I think since Wikipedia is supposed to be like an encyclopedia, the entry is too long. It’s the length of what Encyclopedia Brittanica might have had on World War II. Relative to what it is, that’s probably too much to go into so much detail about one study. Debdelilah ( talk) 10:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
The edits I made were tiny and easy to undo. I didn’t change much of the article and I don’t know the person who changed it before. Wanting someone to be banned for disagreeing with you casts doubt that this is a non-biased cite or a non-biased article. But I have not edited Wiki for years before this and this is not an edit war. I made no attempt at undoing any changes you reverted in the article. All I’ve been doing is talking about it. And you’re right, my pastes were sloppy. I’m not a doctor. I’m a paraprofessional and I don’t consider myself exceptionally capable. But I have no external bias in this. Debdelilah ( talk) 10:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
But at the heart of it, the 99.9 percent is the problem. Even today, with modern diagnostics, people regularly get misdiagnosed. So that drew me to want to read more or look to see if anyone had called the study in question, because how can you be that sure of something when a diagnostic test was never done? And there are various articles that come up saying 1 in 75 adults with poliovirus suffered paralysis vs. 1 in 1000 children and that quadriplegia was seen in adults. But the study is talking about asymmetric presentation as an important sign. And then a cursory read on GBS shows tingling in the hands and feet is the most common presentation- not that Roosevelt couldn’t have had it, but aren’t we talking about a rare presentation of a rare disease? I understand you’re talking about statistical analysis, not diagnosis, but this article is on Wikipedia and the difference is not clear to me as a non-medically educated person. If there are significant gaps in likelihood with statistical analysis vs. diagnosis, the study should possibly say so. If anyone with scientific expertise has any doubts in retrospect that some of the numbers weighed were not reflective of symptoms of polio in adults, then perhaps the article should reflect those doubts. Maybe it should say the polio diagnosis was not certain by medical diagnostic standards, that modern tests for it were never done, and that it was dependent only on observational opinion by a person who, at the time, was considered an expert in the field. For GBS - again not being a doctor - wouldn’t these symptoms be an extraordinarily severe case, a rare case of GBS? And the statistics are based on occurrence with GBS, right? But GBS usually involves tingling of the extremities and not lifelong paralysis- not that it cannot but that it usually doesn’t? Personally I would prefer that the article reflect whatever uncertainty there might be in a way that makes it open to whatever future discoveries may or may not be made. It’s a controversial issue. There are opposing studies. It would not surprise me if both sides are biased - on the one side, drawing attention to GBS, which could lead to funding for researching GBS, much in the way FDR’s polio diagnosis led to a vaccine. But if that’s the case, why not create modern case studies with typical presentations? FDR’s case can’t be definitely diagnosed. He isn’t alive to be tested. Why not use modern, definite diagnoses to bring public attention to GBS? Essentially the study just proves that medical diagnoses in the early 20th century were unreliable. Beyond that, I just see numbers without full explanations. A lot of data, but also places where data might be missing- such as contrasting polio in adults vs polio in general. Debdelilah ( talk) 11:39, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
And I apologize if this is a silly question, but is it possible that FDR had BOTH polio and GBS? I’m reading that nearly any virus can cause GBS, in which the immune system attacks the brain. And the poliovirus also attacks the brain. Could he have had polio and also had an autoimmune response? You can see people writing about possible autoimmune impacts in the Post-Polio Syndrome section of Wikipedia Debdelilah ( talk) 12:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not taking an emotional interest in this anymore, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness in having made the changes. If you are interested in the reaction of the lay public in your articles, I have to say that for me personally- not with any intention of having authoritative say- I would have still had the same strong reaction to 99 percent. Not that you should change your work because of that by any means, because as you said, being shocked by a new finding is not grounds to change it. I read your study in part because it mentioned history, and I would like to clarify something with you. When you put statistics into a Boolean model, are you relying on a clear yes/no? Is there any calculation for imprecise language? For instance, if Roosevelt wrote in a letter that he ached all over, but that he had no rigidity in his neck, and no special pain in his spine, would that be taken to mean he had no pain or stiffness in his neck? Just saying, you’ll hear elderly persons sometimes say their joints get stiff or athletes say they’re stiff after a workout, but rigidity to general English speakers means something beyond ordinary stiffness. And Roosevelt seemed very focused on describing paralytic symptoms in other parts of the letter. This is where I felt like the role of diagnosis would come in, because if he were your patient today, you could ask him to rate his pain on a scale of 1 to 10. If he ached all over I would guess neck pain was not 0. The letter is one that came up on archives.com when I Googled “FDR neck pain”. With language, again, having read about FDR, he seems like someone who downplayed his symptoms, running for a 4th term as President even after a heart crisis, and being eloquent enough to say “I have a terrible pain in my head,” right before his death. In his letter he described himself as being “thoroughly achy” while experiencing his onset of illness and his wife described it in more painful sounding language. So, I’m asking if you ever encountered anything that wasn’t a precise yes or no in the course of the study that had to do with personal language and if so, how you could translate the doubt into a statistic. No need to answer that here if you don’t want, I’m just hoping you’ll consider it. In terms of bias towards polio, I wouldn’t even consider polio 99% likely to have caused all of the problems even if FDR had actually tested positive for the poliovirus, simply because it could cause such a range of symptoms in different people and having it would not preclude also having something else. I am generally more likely to trust people who express uncertainty. While your Boolean study may be impeccable and researched to the maximum degree, I am nervous at reading a statistical analysis of a list of symptoms as a layperson because as a layperson I have no idea if the symptoms were chosen ahead of other symptoms because they produced more definitive numbers. It seems to me any doctor conducting any historical revisitation of diagnosis would have a hard time publishing a study that did not definitively show what it set out to show. In 2003, you might have had it peer reviewed by persons on all sides, perhaps by polio experts who worked during the epidemics in developing countries in the 1980s or by linguistic specialists to help you translate words into specific probabilities. If you did all this, you are amazing and I congratulate you. Peace and goodwill, and be safe in this time of coronavirus. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
I remember seeing a news report about a statue of Roosevelt that was controversial for featuring him in a wheelchair. I have no other detail other than that, but perhaps a picture of it would help the article. If anybody has any information on it, please let us know. - Throw 03:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
That would be the Roosevelt Memorial in Washington DC. http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/ which was criticized for showing the chair he hid from the public throughout life. He used a wooden kitchen chair without arms & on the memorial it is mostly hidden beneath the large cloak he wore in his later years. Saxophobia 09:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
New Brunswick is not in the northeastern United States. It is next door in Canada. If polio was in epidemic in southeastern Canada, that would be a much more relevant thing to say in the article. 220.253.150.84 12:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the section regarding FDR being stricken with Spanish Influenza in 1918 and added a request for citation. I have read several biographies which mention FDR being stricken with "a strain of unfluenza" while touring the front in Europe and being brought home on a stretcher. (It was during this time that Eleanor, unpacking FDR's luggage, discovered a pack of letters from Lucy Mercer.) But I haven't read any sources which state it was Spanish Flu - thus the citation request. THD3 ( talk) 13:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see that in this article, and List of poliomyelitis survivors and Franklin D. Roosevelt's paralytic illness and probably several others in Wikipedia, it is now almost stated as fact that Roosevelt's polio diagnosis was false. While this may be true, the basis for this revisionist diagnosis is one study and the emphasis given to it seems excessive. -- Crunch ( talk) 12:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
A 2016 study reaffirms the polio diagnosis for FDR. But some of the assertions in this Wikipedia article - like lack of neck pain - don't seem to be consistent with other accounts of Roosevelt's symptoms and/or accounts of typical symptoms of polio. For example, this article says Roosevelt had neck pain after the infection, and also that it was sudden, unlike the study, which cites his lack of neck pain and longer progression of illness as evidence of GBS. https://www.learningliftoff.com/overcoming-obstacles-how-fdrs-paralysis-made-him-a-better-president/ CDC information and a Google search for symptoms of polio in adults produces evidence that paralysis on both sides of the body, as well as a more severe course of disease, was far more common in adults with polio than in children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Debdelilah ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Nine years out, it's pretty clear that the GBS diagnosis has failed to take hold among researchers or historians.
A few sources that continue to unambiguously list the diagnosis as polio (there are many more):
Jonathan Alter includes in a footntote with a dismissive note from another doctor:
Lomazow and Fettman, writing specifically about FDR's medical history, mention it in a footnote where they also dismiss the reasoning. They refer unambiguously to FDR's disease as polio:
I'm going to work this afternoon to revise this article and put this minority theory into proportion. Until a majority of reliable sources adopt it as the primary explanation, there's no reason for this article to give it such weight. Other opinions welcome, though, if you feel I'm overlooking major sources on FDR in the above. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 16:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
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I'm sure you are sincere in your efforts to improve the article. You're obviously a dedicated wikipedian, and have edited many articles, including your work on Eleanor Roosevelt. But your changes here are simply not supported by the facts. It's good to "be bold" if the changes are correct. Otherwise, as in this case, it's just disruptive and destructive to the process.
First, you made a note on this article's talk page about your intent, and then willy-nilly, only two hours later, basically zero time for discussion, make very large changes to turn this article (and the section in the FDR article) upside down, to reverse the main conclusions. You call it "some adjustments" :) Really? Your edits are like a bull in a china shop. It forces me to make this long-winded response, because you made all these huge changes at one fell swoop. It would have been much better if you had asked and discussed first, especially because you admit yourself you are new to this topic. That might have let you avoid all the huge mistakes you made.
You decided to totally delete all the information in this article's paragraph starting "However, Roosevelt's age", but you gave no justification.
You went on to delete another entire paragraph in this article starting "Roosevelt's principal physicians", again with no justification or explanation.
Moving right along, with no pause, you deleted the entire paragraph, starting "Exact disease incidences and symptom probabilities". Again, no explanation. Just poof, gone!
Undeterred, you deleted the paragraph starting "A key finding in GBS". Again, no explanation. At this point, this is just destructive behavior, though you are apparently sincere.
As evidence for your big changes, you gave significant weight to Dr. Marino Dalakas' off-hand comment that the 2003 JMB study was a "significant stretch". There is no evidence Dalakas even read the JMB article. If he did, he had the opportunity to publish a letter to the journal editor, with a minimum of effort on his part. He chose not to. Later, Dr. Dalakas could have written and published his own analysis. Again, he chose not to. Perhaps he changed his mind. We'll never know. The point is 1) Dalakas presented no information to support the premise that FDR had polio, 2) science is advanced through publication in peer-reviewed articles, not by off-hand comments or popular press books, 2) your citing the Dalakas comment as if it had any importance is totally not warranted.
As further evidence for the drastic edits, you cite a brief footnote in the Lomazow / Fettmann book. But this is totally not evidence for your changes. First, the book is on a different topic, the death of FDR. Second, there is NO evidence a spinal tap was done!!! The authors present no new information to support the premise that FDR had polio. Nor do they preset evidence to refute the proposed diagnosis of GBS. You were persuaded by a random footnote in a popular press book co-authored by a tabloid journalist. According to wikipedia, "The (New York) Post is known for its sensationalist headlines and the unpredictable political views of its editorial board". From the author's web site: "Eric Fettmann is associate editorial-page editor of The New York Post". You call this a reliable source? So this citation of the Lomazow book as an argument is totally unwarranted. How can you possibly say Lomazow and Fettman "dismiss the reasoning"? This sounds totally absurd. Which of the three assertions in that little footnote dismiss the reasoning of the 2003 JMB article?
It's easy for Dr. Lomazow to put in a little footnote with factual errors and dubious statements in a popular press book. But for some reason, he has chosen to NOT write a peer-review article attempting to rebut the 2003 JMB article. Why not?
You argue that many, perhaps the majority of historians continue to state that FDR had polio. That's perhaps the one factual point we might agree on. But repeatedly saying something does not make it true. The key point is that none of those dismissive historians took the trouble to address the points of the 2003 JMB article. Until they do so, and objectively say what is wrong with the reasoning in the JMB article, or WHY they think FDR had polio, it doesn't add to the discussion, and is not a relevant reference. A general history with hundreds of pages that mentions FDR's illness in a few sentences is not anywhere near the same level of source material as an article or book that specifically treats the topic. But your citations of Dalakas and Lomazow shows you totally miss this distinction.
You took the radical step of renaming the FDR "Paralytic Illness" section to "Polio". Before your changes, the articles were even-handed and objective. Neither article said FDR had GBS. They said he had a paralytic illness, and objectively presented the evidence that was more likely GBS.You've decided to go out on a limb by baldly stating that FDR had polio. But the evidence does not support that, the literature doesn't support that, and based on the huge mistakes in your edits you're hardly qualified to turn the articles upside down.
Besides the other sloppiness and logical mistakes, "a conclusion was criticized by other researchers" is not even grammatically correct. You're in way too much of a hurry.
I hope you can see that it's hard for people (including yourself) to accept that something repeated countless times over some eight decades may not be true. Your comments and edits totally ignore that reality. Famous heart-touching movies saying that FDR had polio have been watched by millions. The association of FDR with the fight against polio further stamped into the public mind the idea that the cause was polio. But the scientific evidence is otherwise.
Your comments and edits show no evidence that you read the 2003 JMB article, or that you read the previous discussions. Your skepticism is not new. This has been thrashed out before, both here and in the main FDR article. Many of my comments here are just taken from what was said before. You're just the first one who let loose so freely and made such large-scale edits with no discussion. And the main evidence you offer is the silly Lomazow and Dalakas references, which are not appropriate, are even laughable.
So unless you can rebut my discussion showing why the Lomazow and Dalakas citations lack credibility, or unless there is something otherwise wrong with the logic I've presented, could you please revert your large-scale, incorrect edits? At that point, if you are still interested in the FDR illness topic, could you please read the 2003 JMB article (or maybe read it more carefully), and propose something more rational and helpful than the radical changes you've made? 71.212.99.137 ( talk) 16:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
You say "take a deep breath. No need to rush in breathing fire". But you're the one who rushed in and failed to take a deep breath before making very large changes to turn this article (and the section in the FDR article) upside down, to reverse the main conclusions.
It's not a matter of "ferocious loyalty to JMB article". I would have loyalty to any good source. It's simply that 1) the JMB article is the only source that is peer-reviewed and 2) none of the other sources critique the main issues in the JMB article or provide new information to support the diagnosis of poliomyelitis in FDR’s case. If anything, "ferocious loyalty" would lie in the other direction, where the general public (and historians) are reluctant to change a long-held and cherished belief, instilled in us all over many decades, repeated countless times without question, each decade making the confirmation bias stronger.
I agree that wikipedia needs to give sources "due weight". But the main evidence you offered was the Lomazow and Dalakas references, which are not appropriate. Now you are trying to present new sources. But you haven't reverted any of your prior large-scale edits, or given me the courtesy of responding to what I said about Lomazow and Dalakas.
You direct to "due weight to minority opinions". The examples given by wikipedia are "claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones". Do you really equate these to the scientific / medical question of the cause of FDR's paralytic illness?
Again, I'm giving you the courtesy of responding to your new citation, although the new citation is just another weak argument when your previous weak arguments have been refuted and you haven't shown the courtesy to respond. You're right that Oshinsky "states flatly that FDR had polio". But Oshinsky did not critique the main issues in the JMB article or provide new information to support the diagnosis of poliomyelitis in FDR’s case. Instead, he relied on remarks from a media interview that were taken out of context and raised other unconvincing arguments. In his final analysis Oshinsky relied upon the diagnosis made by FDR’s physicians in 1921 rather than a consideration of FDR’s symptoms and the current knowledge of neurological diseases that cause flaccid paralysis.
I never asked you to "debate the logic in the JMB article directly". I just said read the article, or read it carefully. You're trying to put words in my mouth, or you just don't read carefully.
The reason there were eight paragraphs supporting the GBS theory and one supporting the polio theory is because that's about the ratio of the available evidence. I don't think presenting factual statements qualifies as "wildly unbalanced". wikipedia is an encyclopedia that deals with facts as best we know them, from reliable sources. The substantiated facts concerning FDR's illness were previously outlined in the wikipedia article. The diagnosis of FDR’s neurological disease depends upon documented clinical abnormalities. His age, prolonged symmetric ascending paralysis, transient numbness, protracted dysaesthesiae (pain on slight touch), facial paralysis, bladder and bowel dysfunction, and absence of meningismus are typical of GBS and are inconsistent with paralytic poliomyelitis. FDR’s prolonged fever was atypical for both diseases. Finally, permanent paralysis, though commoner in paralytic poliomyelitis, is frequent in GBS. You chose to delete these facts, with no explanation. Your reasoning leads to something like the following: David Oshinsky is a "famous authority". He says FDR had polio. So that's it. We don't need to evaluate how David Oshinsky arrived at his "conclusion". Even if one (or all) of Oshinsky's arguments is wrong, it doesn't matter. It's just his "expert conclusion" that counts.
I never said "extreme minority view". You're trying to put words in my mouth.
You say you are going to "look over other sources I provide". Based on your citation of Lomazow and Dalakas, and your refusal to give me the courtesy of responding to the points I raise, I think you're hardly qualified to be some arbiter or judge of sources.
It's none of your business to suggest that I publish something. Why don't you just stick to the current impasse, that you have created? I'm not asking you to publish anything. I'm just asking you to revert the large-scale, radical edits that turn this article and section of the FDR article upside down, and take a more thoughtful, reasonable approach to this article.
You would need to clarify what do you mean by "Roosevelt researchers" and "research" upon which to base scholarly consensus. I think you have a big misunderstanding of what "research" is. Does simply repeating something that thousands have said before qualify as "research"? Or what about the Dalakas and Lomazow citations you offered as your evidence, with their factual errors and off-hand comments to a press inquiry? Do you consider those "research"?
You don't need to thank me for my interest in the article. I've been interested a long time. Instead, you need to take responsibility for the destructive, though apparently not intended as such, actions you have taken. Your edits are like a bull in a china shop.
I never said anything like "the fact that FDR researchers have ignored the JMB piece is evidence that it should be prominently included in our article". I have no idea where you got that from.
You repeatedly say "that's not how wikipedia works". But here's what wikipedia says about sources: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made." The key phrases are "each source must be carefully weighed", "directly support the information", "appropriate to the claims made", and "checking facts". I would suggest you are ignoring these factors in evaluating the reliability of the sources in this case. You count a historian who just repeats what countless others have said before as equal weight to a peer-reviewed article that specifically addresses the clinical findings in FDR's illness and has not been scientifically. They are NOT equal, not by a long shot. And I totally disagree that because some historian does not mention the JMB article that means the JMB article should have less weight. What if the historian was not aware of the JMB article? Or just wanted to avoid controversy and meet a publication date? We have no idea. But back to Lomazow and Dalakas, whom you cited as the basis for your large-scale edits, were "facts checked" in those sources? Is saying something is "a stretch" checking facts? And what about that spinal tap? Is that "checking facts"?
Again concerning "how wikipedia works", its policy makes my argument you were over-bold and need to revert your edits and go back to square one: "In many cases, the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. A careless edit to such an article might stir up a latent conflict, and other users who are involved in the page may become defensive. If you would like to make a significant edit—not just a simple copyedit—to an article on a controversial subject, it is a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety and skim the comments on the talk page. On controversial articles, the safest course is to find consensus before making changes, but there are situations when bold edits can safely be made to contentious articles.". Your large-scale edits on this admittedly controversial article fail to meet the suggested standard of trying to reach consensus first. And you stubbornly refuse to revert your edits and take a more reasonable course.
You did correct the grammatical mistake. But otherwise you left the two articles turned on their head. I've given you the courtesy to address each point you made. You didn't answer (or even address) most of the many points I raised. Again you force me to make this long reply, because you won't take back your large-scale, radical, no-time-for-discussion edits and go back to square one. To repeat, because you have ignored what I said: Unless you can rebut my discussion showing why the Lomazow and Dalakas citations lack credibility, or unless there is something otherwise wrong with the logic I've presented, could you please revert your large-scale edits, and propose something more rational and helpful to the article? 71.212.99.137 ( talk) 00:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
We've gotten off to the wrong foot in this discussion, and for that I apologize. I think the easiest way to go forward is for us each to do us a bit of research and attempt to assess what sources accept the polio hypothesis and what the GBS hypothesis. Does that make sense to you?
So far, here's how it seems to break down to me, but I'll be interested to hear your summary, too.
Sources stating FDR had polio:
Sources we have stating FDR was more likely to have had GBS:
Again, if I'm missing any sources, please note them below; I don't mean to pretend that this is a comprehensive research review (which is borderline impossible on a subject like this). I'm just having trouble seeing why we should revert to a version primarily based on a single article dissenting from the consensus. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
It appears this article was created and heavily edited by an account identifying itself as the author of one of the sources, DA Goldman ( User:Dagoldman), an account primarily used to promote Goldman's research across Wikipedia. Almost all FDR articles appear to be tainted by this account. I will be undoing these edits in the coming days. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 16:28, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm tagging the section as undue as it gives almost no discussion of the cases supporting polio, devoting a measly three sentences. — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 14:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Yesterday i came online after hearing the GBS hypothesis on a crappy history channel show, and wanted to know just how legit it was. Well, I am still not entirely sure, but based on the article after initial reading I had no idea. The section jumps around from different author to different author, painfully and obviously delineated where the point of view changes. Additionally the different authors wrote in such a hostile way towards the others' pet diagnosis. To be honest, it was like a schizophrenic or multiple-personality disorder was writing an essay. And the repeating! Within a span of about 25 lines, the fact that FDR had a fever of 102 degrees was repeated three times! And in only one of those times was any kind of context of "Why do we care that FDR had a fever, and what does that mean to the topic at hand" addressed at all. Various sections were clearly inserted as rebuttals to other sections, which gives the impression of disfunction. I had to check and make sure i hadnt stumbled upon the talk page.
Just now I did a ROUGH revision attempting to consolidate the two points of view into a more coherent narrative. Please note, I did not include any original assertions or new content (other than my own rewording of others assertions). I did not have time to check and make sure the references previous editors included actualy say what they are supposed to say, and simply took them at their word. Additionally, there are gobs of unsourced assertions that for a controversial topic like this really need to be sourced if they are going to be included. I hope khazar is still monitoring this page because he seems to know how to do this better than I do.
After reading through the talk page and article up to this point, i think I would categorize the GBS hypothesis as this: A minority viewpoint, but not a fringe viewpoint. This probably makes its mention warranted, but tempered to make clear the current consensus. My edit just now tries to do that, without falling into talk-page style colloqial language showing open hostility to the minority view. The open discussion of pros and cons however might border on original research though... thoughts anyone? If this section were to be fixed, I think this article would be reasonably helpful to future readers interested in FDR. -Paul (on desktop) 12/14/13 around 7:30 PM 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 03:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh and i agree with the undue tag mentioned above. Considering the very next section involves the topic discussed, and in fact already included repeats of the information, it seems very much like a talk-page manner rebuttal of its following section, and in argumentative colloqial language no less. I simply merged what little wasnt already mentioned in the article into the larger section below it. -Paul (on desktop) 12/14/13 around 7:30 pm even though the timestamp is off by many hours 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 03:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
There is a picture caption in this article which states "One of only three known photographs of Roosevelt in a wheelchair". However, in the Wikipedia article "Franklin D. Roosevelt" there is a sentence which states "Only two photographs taken of FDR while he was in his wheelchair are known to exist;" Bunkyray5 ( talk) 15:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
In the History section of the article, I've restored the Timeline subsection that was removed by a previous editor after this article was edited as part of the Wiki Education Foundation course assignment. As I noted in the edit summary when I restored it, some of the sourced content conflicts with recent changes. Rather than delete the information, I think a better solution would be to incorporate the bullet points in the Timeline into the new subsections within the History section. — WFinch ( talk) 14:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
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There are over a dozen citations to Prisoners of Time: The Misdiagnosis of FDR's 1921 Illness, published by EDPH Press, a division of Expert Health Data Programming, Inc., which is owned by co-author Daniel A. Goldman. [17] This would seem to be self-published. See WP:SPS Manannan67 ( talk) 00:07, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Any comments? For the reasons stated above, I intend to revert the 4/26 and 4/27 edits, after allowing a few more days for any discussion. In the meantime, may I ask that nobody edit the article? It would be nice if someone else joined the discussion. Thanks 71.212.115.192 ( talk) 16:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
It's interesting that Roosevelt was at a large gathering where food would have been served and lots of kids were present prior to the onset of his illness. The polio virus is spread by the fecal-oral route and kids in those days, when polio was fairly common, often carried the virus with no symptoms. Could Roosevelt have ingested it in food prepared by someone who was a carrier and didn't wash their hands after using the toilet? The time between the jamboree and the onset of symptoms is just about right for polio. Interesting. 47.138.89.140 ( talk) 08:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
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Now that this article is split off, it seems like a good candidate for expansion. I think the public awareness piece is especially interesting. Anyone have good sources? Sam 15:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I added photo, and removed request. Dagoldman 07:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
QUESTION: "Regardless of the cause, the result was that Roosevelt was totally and permanently paralyzed from the waist down. He could sit up and, with aid of leg braces, stand upright, but could not walk."
I saw footage of FDR walking on a carrier (meeting Churchill) despite agony. So this is probably incorrect.
Roosevelt could not take more than a step or so on his own. When he walked it was with the aid of one of his sons or an aide. He had to put his weight on his cane, swing the other side of his body forward, then put his weight on the arm of his companion while moving the side with the cane forward. His sons were trained to take the weight without any indication that they were doing anything more than guiding him. He could move on his own to some degree if he had a railing to grip. Saxophobia 09:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad this interesting article has now been split off, but thought it needed to be clearer throughout some parts of the text that the whole thesis is based on one recent peer-reviewed study. And as the authors of that study point out, everything about Roosevelt's case clear is consistent with his having had polio. It's just a question of what is statistically most probable, using a lot of plausible assumptions about disease incidence and symptom probability. So I made minor edits to fix this. Agree? Posidonious ( talk) 21:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
See my response below. What errors did you detect? And what kind of speculation are you referring to? I didn't see any speculation. The publication says "Six of eight posterior probabilities strongly favoured Guillain–Barre´ syndrome." and "retrospective analysis favours the diagnosis of GBS". So the publication definitely asserts that the diagnosis of polio is in doubt and he more likely had GBS. On the other hand, the publication never says "FDR did not have polio", "FDR had GBS", or anything close to that. Neither does the wikipedia article. I do agree that "FDR does not have polio" is an unwarranted conclusion. But the statement "FDR had polio" is much more unwarranted at this point. And what's the harm in the reader mistakenly concluding "FDR did not have polio" vs even more mistakenly concluding "FDR had polio"? What are you afraid of? We don't know what FDR suffered from, but it currently seems more likely GBS than polio. It's nothing to get upset about or worry about. It's just the truth, as best we know it. The resulting paralysis is a fact, no matter what the cause. There is no reason to "defend" polio or "defend" GBS. Just look at the evidence. And there are great numbers of doctors, statisticians and epidemiologists competent to do a rebuttal. You choose to ignore that there is no rebuttal, and make unsubstantiated statements about "errors" and "speculation". 174.31.152.161 ( talk) 09:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
As a unbiased third party here, I have two observations: 1) as it appears now, it is painfully clear where in the section the writer and point of view changes. 2) While both the pro-GBS half and the pro-polio half seem to be favoring their particular diagnosis, the pro-polio paragraphs tacked on is written in a transparently dismissive and hostile way. The pro-GBS half is written in a very professional manner, however if it is in fact the case that it represents a fringe view (I don't know, and can't figure it out based on the article and talk page in their current forms), then it also needs to be rewritten to reflect such. The 130 degree turn the section makes into the pro-polio half needs to be rewritten in a professional encyclopedic manner that doesn't make the reader do a double take and check to make sure they didn't accidentally jump to the talk page. -Paul (on iPhone) 12/13/13 around midnight. 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 08:21, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree there’s a lot of professional, encyclopedic text in here from the 2003 study, and somebody spent a lot of time on it. But the 2003 study was discredited in a 2016 review, for ignoring several symptoms of both GBS and polio in order to artificially come up with a pro GBS conclusion.
Debdelilah ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Also, polio had a more severe course of disease for people who got it in adulthood, with the severe paralytic version leading to death in up to 30 percent of adults who got it. As the CDC website shows, adults were also at risk and suffered paralysis from polio. The survivors list here features several of them. There is no need to show someone lived in a bubble or had a genetic predisposition. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Last point and sorry for so many posts. The study claims a 99 percent certainty of GBS diagnosis in a person who was never tested for GBS and was never personally examined by the doctor who authored it. It makes a blanket statement that FDR didn’t have symptoms consistent with polio even though his doctors at the time said the opposite. It ignores the existence of post polio syndrome in calculating the odds, even though PPS has been known about for decades and would resolve any doubts about an adult catching polio. And last, it assumes that cases of adult polio were always being diagnosed correctly in 1921. While the CDC knows today about adult transmission, back then the disease was known as infantile paralysis. Relying on numbers of diagnoses in adults at that time would be unreliable. Roosevelt’s own first diagnosis he received in 1921 was age related spinal damage. It was only after the cure made things worse that experts at the time diagnosed polio. Debdelilah ( talk) 00:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27178375/ This is the 2016 study that discredited the 2003 study. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Basically, my concern is that as mentioned in talk before, the doctor responsible for the 2003 study was heavily responsible for creating this section of the Wikipedia page. Without having a staff or a heavily weighted interest to improving the page with hours of time or hundreds of dollars, I can’t make a point by point criticism of the study myself. I would suggest reaching out to the doctors who did the counter study if possible. But just as a layperson reading through this, some things just seem wrong. For instance, why is a conclusion reached based on Roosevelt having recovered some use of his upper body? If you read accounts of other polio survivors, many of them made partial recoveries. But given the circumstances of the era, it’s less clear that every circumstance of recovery and order of recovery would be described in a scientific study. Also, the study cites data about numbers of adults in Roosevelt’s age group who had a new polio diagnosis in his region of the country in 1921. So it operates on the presumption that those numbers are accurate for the statistical analysis. But then it also calls in question the ability of Roosevelt’s doctors, who were experts, to diagnose polio correctly. If he was calling in question the ability of doctors to diagnose the disease, how can he rely on statistics from the time? GBS was first diagnosed in 1916, when only two cases in the entire world had been documented. It is still known as a rare disease today. Meanwhile, polio was common in 1921, though it was not diagnosed as often in adults. If you read through the case accounts in the broader article about polio survivors, you can see several accounts of older children and adults who first went through a misdiagnosis prior to polio being identified. You can also see a reference in the 1920 American Journal of Nursing stressing that “infantile paralysis” was a misnomer and that the course of disease was in fact more severe in adults. And last, post-polio syndrome, which has its own article on Wikipedia, would also cause symptoms of polio to occur in adulthood even if one first caught the disease in childhood. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3407822.pdf Debdelilah ( talk) 23:44, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Further issues were, the article makes it seem like the experts who diagnosed polio did so after a cursory examination. But as the 2016 study points out, Roosevelt was under expert treatment for polio from 1921 to 1924. And the article claims a 99.9 percent probability for GBS over polio even though GBS is rare and the majority of people who have it don’t have the length or severity of symptoms that Roosevelt had. So, even if there is a chance that Roosevelt had GBS, calling it a virtual certainty seems excessive, especially in light of the 2016 study. It also introduces a question of bias, because polio is a virtually eradicated disease, while GBS is a modern rare disease with an unknown cause. The 2003 study was widely publicized in TV bios of Roosevelt, bringing attention to GBS. But it may have done so at the cost of rewriting history or, as the 2016 study claims, using data in a manipulative way. Debdelilah ( talk) 13:23, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
And while his upper body was weak at one point in the illness, there’s no indication he was paralyzed in the upper body, so the ascending symmetrical paralysis 99 percent in favor of GBS seems overblown. First one leg became paralyzed and then the other. This was not a statistically unlikely circumstance for adults with polio. As you can see, experts today describe it as sometimes affecting one side of the body, sometimes both. https://www.healthline.com/health/poliomyelitis#causes. It’s unclear why all the symptoms in favor of GBS are weighted with 98 or 99 percent weight of likelihood. Roosevelt had symptoms of a disease in 2015 and 2017 that might be similar to a disease people get before getting GBS. But as other sources say, most people who have GBS get this disease with six weeks of when symptoms start, not years before. So why 99 percent weight to this? https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/guillain-barre-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20362793 Debdelilah ( talk) 13:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I reached out to Dr. Bruce E. Becker by email; he is one of the three doctors who conducted the 2016 study. I linked to the article and I hope he or one of the others will follow up. My interest was first piqued in this when someone posted about FDR and GBS on Facebook saying things like “most people can’t catch polio past the age of four” and expressing doubt that an adult could even catch the illness. And the CDC website clearly says adults can catch it. It was as though if it said it on TV, that was enough, people don’t look further. I personally wish that like most encyclopedic entries, the 2003 study had appeared as a summary with a link. Instead it went into hundreds of points of detail. A doctor who spent years researching can come up with this level of detail. But a non-doctor who sees opposing studies would be more able to easily add to a summary than to something that goes to this degree of point by point depth. Debdelilah ( talk) 14:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/212768 Above is an article about the use of lumbar puncture to diagnose polio in 1910. In 1921, we could assume experts would have known about this as a diagnostic tool. Without proof that it was done or not done, it would be unwise to assume it was not done. Again, not claiming polio is a certain diagnosis. Just questioning the 99.9 percent certainty of GBS. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Among the assertions in the 2016 study is that Roosevelt’s doctor, Lovett, in fact knew about GBS, and published information about it in his 1916 textbook. So he did not diagnose polio because of ignorance of GBS. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:43, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
DiscussionThe diagnosis and prognosis of polio based on therecords of physicians and therapists who ex amined FDRduring his illness requires an und erstanding of thecriteria used at that time. In 1922, the year after hisinitial examination of FDR, Lovett published his diag-nostic criteria based on his obse rvation of more than5000 cases. Lovett summarized his diagnostic criteria asfollows: a scattered, irregular, widely spread loss of motorpower on one or both sides; no diminution of sensation in affected parts; and diminution or loss of reflexes in the parts affected[24].The recent Center for Disease Control case definitionfor paralytic poliomyelitis identifies the same features;“Acute onset of a flaccid paralys is of one or more limbswith decreased or absent tendon reflexes in t... More from the 2016 study is quoted above. Roosevelt’s doctor was an expert in polio and had come up with criteria to diagnose it that matches modern day criteria. Debdelilah ( talk) 17:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Adults have a greater incidence of severe pain onday1,usuallyinthelumbarregionwithagreaterincidence of prodromal hyperesthesia [47].These3features clearly were present in FDR’s case. Childrenhave a much greater frequency of monoplegia, with arecorded incidence of 85%-91% in more than 500 casesof spinal paralytic polio [64]. This pattern in childrenis likely the basis for the criterion of asymmetry citedin the literature [56,61,65]. Adults older than 30years of, however, have 4-extremity paralysis in mo rethan 50% (74/141) cases, which was the patt ern inFDR’s case. Bladder paralysis “a common feature inadults (> 40%). is most infrequent in children. Another quote from the 2016 study. Roosevelt’s course of illness was typical of an adult with polio. The 2003 study used general polio statistics, not polio statistics in adults. The CDC’s diagnostics and knowledge include modern day identification of the virus in infected adults; there is no reason to believe adult diagnoses of polio were not polio. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
More from the 2016 study, referencing symptoms that had been used to cross compare polio and GBS likelihood: Of 11 clinical features listed in Table 3 [5], only 2(fever and permanent paralysis) are listed as favoringpolio. Many of the remaining 9 features are flawed,such as listing FDR’s progression of paralysis at 10-13days. Lovett’s notes indicate that by August 13th, 3 daysafter symptom onset he had become paraplegic, andKeen reported on August 14th that he “had lost theability to move his legs though not to feel” [26]. Anotherfeature, dysesthesia, is listed as absent in polio, illus-trating a lack of awareness of the literature (Lovett;Draper; Horstman) regarding the typical presence ofhyperesthesia/sensi tiveness in polio as well as theclinical observations by the clinicians who examinedFDR and reported on his hyperesthesia/sensitiveness[24,45,46]. It appears that the authors of the 2003 papermay have interpreted symptoms of cutaneous hyperes-thesia, common in polio, with the dysesthesias associ-ated with GBS.Another error within their 9 listed factors is bladderparalysis, which is described as lasting 1-3 days in polio.Lovett offers the association of abdominal, pelvic floor,and girdle paralysis as features associated with pro-longed urinary retention in polio [24]. The patterns ofrecovery that clearly distinguish polio from GBS ingeneral, and especially in FDR’s case, are the majordifferences in residual proximal muscle weaknessin polio contraste d with distal weakness in GBS[47,48,50,69,70]. Finally, the severity of the FDR’simpairment and wheelchair mobility, which may occurin up to 20% of the polio population, is not reported innon-bulbar GBS [55,59]. Debdelilah ( talk) 18:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I can’t disagree that some of the language in the 2016 is very strongly worded. And I’m not a doctor myself. As I said, I contacted one of the doctors who conducted the study. Whether you make the edits is Wikipedia’s decision. I do feel strongly about the issue for reasons I can’t put my finger on. But I believe it’s probably the political environment right now. People post studies saying one thing or another and behind it is usually one interest group or another funding the study. In this case, there is more to read than just the abstract, and I would suggest anyone interested could read it on Wiley Library for a few dollars. Myself, I think since Wikipedia is supposed to be like an encyclopedia, the entry is too long. It’s the length of what Encyclopedia Brittanica might have had on World War II. Relative to what it is, that’s probably too much to go into so much detail about one study. Debdelilah ( talk) 10:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
The edits I made were tiny and easy to undo. I didn’t change much of the article and I don’t know the person who changed it before. Wanting someone to be banned for disagreeing with you casts doubt that this is a non-biased cite or a non-biased article. But I have not edited Wiki for years before this and this is not an edit war. I made no attempt at undoing any changes you reverted in the article. All I’ve been doing is talking about it. And you’re right, my pastes were sloppy. I’m not a doctor. I’m a paraprofessional and I don’t consider myself exceptionally capable. But I have no external bias in this. Debdelilah ( talk) 10:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
But at the heart of it, the 99.9 percent is the problem. Even today, with modern diagnostics, people regularly get misdiagnosed. So that drew me to want to read more or look to see if anyone had called the study in question, because how can you be that sure of something when a diagnostic test was never done? And there are various articles that come up saying 1 in 75 adults with poliovirus suffered paralysis vs. 1 in 1000 children and that quadriplegia was seen in adults. But the study is talking about asymmetric presentation as an important sign. And then a cursory read on GBS shows tingling in the hands and feet is the most common presentation- not that Roosevelt couldn’t have had it, but aren’t we talking about a rare presentation of a rare disease? I understand you’re talking about statistical analysis, not diagnosis, but this article is on Wikipedia and the difference is not clear to me as a non-medically educated person. If there are significant gaps in likelihood with statistical analysis vs. diagnosis, the study should possibly say so. If anyone with scientific expertise has any doubts in retrospect that some of the numbers weighed were not reflective of symptoms of polio in adults, then perhaps the article should reflect those doubts. Maybe it should say the polio diagnosis was not certain by medical diagnostic standards, that modern tests for it were never done, and that it was dependent only on observational opinion by a person who, at the time, was considered an expert in the field. For GBS - again not being a doctor - wouldn’t these symptoms be an extraordinarily severe case, a rare case of GBS? And the statistics are based on occurrence with GBS, right? But GBS usually involves tingling of the extremities and not lifelong paralysis- not that it cannot but that it usually doesn’t? Personally I would prefer that the article reflect whatever uncertainty there might be in a way that makes it open to whatever future discoveries may or may not be made. It’s a controversial issue. There are opposing studies. It would not surprise me if both sides are biased - on the one side, drawing attention to GBS, which could lead to funding for researching GBS, much in the way FDR’s polio diagnosis led to a vaccine. But if that’s the case, why not create modern case studies with typical presentations? FDR’s case can’t be definitely diagnosed. He isn’t alive to be tested. Why not use modern, definite diagnoses to bring public attention to GBS? Essentially the study just proves that medical diagnoses in the early 20th century were unreliable. Beyond that, I just see numbers without full explanations. A lot of data, but also places where data might be missing- such as contrasting polio in adults vs polio in general. Debdelilah ( talk) 11:39, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
And I apologize if this is a silly question, but is it possible that FDR had BOTH polio and GBS? I’m reading that nearly any virus can cause GBS, in which the immune system attacks the brain. And the poliovirus also attacks the brain. Could he have had polio and also had an autoimmune response? You can see people writing about possible autoimmune impacts in the Post-Polio Syndrome section of Wikipedia Debdelilah ( talk) 12:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not taking an emotional interest in this anymore, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness in having made the changes. If you are interested in the reaction of the lay public in your articles, I have to say that for me personally- not with any intention of having authoritative say- I would have still had the same strong reaction to 99 percent. Not that you should change your work because of that by any means, because as you said, being shocked by a new finding is not grounds to change it. I read your study in part because it mentioned history, and I would like to clarify something with you. When you put statistics into a Boolean model, are you relying on a clear yes/no? Is there any calculation for imprecise language? For instance, if Roosevelt wrote in a letter that he ached all over, but that he had no rigidity in his neck, and no special pain in his spine, would that be taken to mean he had no pain or stiffness in his neck? Just saying, you’ll hear elderly persons sometimes say their joints get stiff or athletes say they’re stiff after a workout, but rigidity to general English speakers means something beyond ordinary stiffness. And Roosevelt seemed very focused on describing paralytic symptoms in other parts of the letter. This is where I felt like the role of diagnosis would come in, because if he were your patient today, you could ask him to rate his pain on a scale of 1 to 10. If he ached all over I would guess neck pain was not 0. The letter is one that came up on archives.com when I Googled “FDR neck pain”. With language, again, having read about FDR, he seems like someone who downplayed his symptoms, running for a 4th term as President even after a heart crisis, and being eloquent enough to say “I have a terrible pain in my head,” right before his death. In his letter he described himself as being “thoroughly achy” while experiencing his onset of illness and his wife described it in more painful sounding language. So, I’m asking if you ever encountered anything that wasn’t a precise yes or no in the course of the study that had to do with personal language and if so, how you could translate the doubt into a statistic. No need to answer that here if you don’t want, I’m just hoping you’ll consider it. In terms of bias towards polio, I wouldn’t even consider polio 99% likely to have caused all of the problems even if FDR had actually tested positive for the poliovirus, simply because it could cause such a range of symptoms in different people and having it would not preclude also having something else. I am generally more likely to trust people who express uncertainty. While your Boolean study may be impeccable and researched to the maximum degree, I am nervous at reading a statistical analysis of a list of symptoms as a layperson because as a layperson I have no idea if the symptoms were chosen ahead of other symptoms because they produced more definitive numbers. It seems to me any doctor conducting any historical revisitation of diagnosis would have a hard time publishing a study that did not definitively show what it set out to show. In 2003, you might have had it peer reviewed by persons on all sides, perhaps by polio experts who worked during the epidemics in developing countries in the 1980s or by linguistic specialists to help you translate words into specific probabilities. If you did all this, you are amazing and I congratulate you. Peace and goodwill, and be safe in this time of coronavirus. Debdelilah ( talk) 23:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
I remember seeing a news report about a statue of Roosevelt that was controversial for featuring him in a wheelchair. I have no other detail other than that, but perhaps a picture of it would help the article. If anybody has any information on it, please let us know. - Throw 03:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
That would be the Roosevelt Memorial in Washington DC. http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/ which was criticized for showing the chair he hid from the public throughout life. He used a wooden kitchen chair without arms & on the memorial it is mostly hidden beneath the large cloak he wore in his later years. Saxophobia 09:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
New Brunswick is not in the northeastern United States. It is next door in Canada. If polio was in epidemic in southeastern Canada, that would be a much more relevant thing to say in the article. 220.253.150.84 12:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the section regarding FDR being stricken with Spanish Influenza in 1918 and added a request for citation. I have read several biographies which mention FDR being stricken with "a strain of unfluenza" while touring the front in Europe and being brought home on a stretcher. (It was during this time that Eleanor, unpacking FDR's luggage, discovered a pack of letters from Lucy Mercer.) But I haven't read any sources which state it was Spanish Flu - thus the citation request. THD3 ( talk) 13:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see that in this article, and List of poliomyelitis survivors and Franklin D. Roosevelt's paralytic illness and probably several others in Wikipedia, it is now almost stated as fact that Roosevelt's polio diagnosis was false. While this may be true, the basis for this revisionist diagnosis is one study and the emphasis given to it seems excessive. -- Crunch ( talk) 12:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
A 2016 study reaffirms the polio diagnosis for FDR. But some of the assertions in this Wikipedia article - like lack of neck pain - don't seem to be consistent with other accounts of Roosevelt's symptoms and/or accounts of typical symptoms of polio. For example, this article says Roosevelt had neck pain after the infection, and also that it was sudden, unlike the study, which cites his lack of neck pain and longer progression of illness as evidence of GBS. https://www.learningliftoff.com/overcoming-obstacles-how-fdrs-paralysis-made-him-a-better-president/ CDC information and a Google search for symptoms of polio in adults produces evidence that paralysis on both sides of the body, as well as a more severe course of disease, was far more common in adults with polio than in children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Debdelilah ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Nine years out, it's pretty clear that the GBS diagnosis has failed to take hold among researchers or historians.
A few sources that continue to unambiguously list the diagnosis as polio (there are many more):
Jonathan Alter includes in a footntote with a dismissive note from another doctor:
Lomazow and Fettman, writing specifically about FDR's medical history, mention it in a footnote where they also dismiss the reasoning. They refer unambiguously to FDR's disease as polio:
I'm going to work this afternoon to revise this article and put this minority theory into proportion. Until a majority of reliable sources adopt it as the primary explanation, there's no reason for this article to give it such weight. Other opinions welcome, though, if you feel I'm overlooking major sources on FDR in the above. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 16:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
/////////////
I'm sure you are sincere in your efforts to improve the article. You're obviously a dedicated wikipedian, and have edited many articles, including your work on Eleanor Roosevelt. But your changes here are simply not supported by the facts. It's good to "be bold" if the changes are correct. Otherwise, as in this case, it's just disruptive and destructive to the process.
First, you made a note on this article's talk page about your intent, and then willy-nilly, only two hours later, basically zero time for discussion, make very large changes to turn this article (and the section in the FDR article) upside down, to reverse the main conclusions. You call it "some adjustments" :) Really? Your edits are like a bull in a china shop. It forces me to make this long-winded response, because you made all these huge changes at one fell swoop. It would have been much better if you had asked and discussed first, especially because you admit yourself you are new to this topic. That might have let you avoid all the huge mistakes you made.
You decided to totally delete all the information in this article's paragraph starting "However, Roosevelt's age", but you gave no justification.
You went on to delete another entire paragraph in this article starting "Roosevelt's principal physicians", again with no justification or explanation.
Moving right along, with no pause, you deleted the entire paragraph, starting "Exact disease incidences and symptom probabilities". Again, no explanation. Just poof, gone!
Undeterred, you deleted the paragraph starting "A key finding in GBS". Again, no explanation. At this point, this is just destructive behavior, though you are apparently sincere.
As evidence for your big changes, you gave significant weight to Dr. Marino Dalakas' off-hand comment that the 2003 JMB study was a "significant stretch". There is no evidence Dalakas even read the JMB article. If he did, he had the opportunity to publish a letter to the journal editor, with a minimum of effort on his part. He chose not to. Later, Dr. Dalakas could have written and published his own analysis. Again, he chose not to. Perhaps he changed his mind. We'll never know. The point is 1) Dalakas presented no information to support the premise that FDR had polio, 2) science is advanced through publication in peer-reviewed articles, not by off-hand comments or popular press books, 2) your citing the Dalakas comment as if it had any importance is totally not warranted.
As further evidence for the drastic edits, you cite a brief footnote in the Lomazow / Fettmann book. But this is totally not evidence for your changes. First, the book is on a different topic, the death of FDR. Second, there is NO evidence a spinal tap was done!!! The authors present no new information to support the premise that FDR had polio. Nor do they preset evidence to refute the proposed diagnosis of GBS. You were persuaded by a random footnote in a popular press book co-authored by a tabloid journalist. According to wikipedia, "The (New York) Post is known for its sensationalist headlines and the unpredictable political views of its editorial board". From the author's web site: "Eric Fettmann is associate editorial-page editor of The New York Post". You call this a reliable source? So this citation of the Lomazow book as an argument is totally unwarranted. How can you possibly say Lomazow and Fettman "dismiss the reasoning"? This sounds totally absurd. Which of the three assertions in that little footnote dismiss the reasoning of the 2003 JMB article?
It's easy for Dr. Lomazow to put in a little footnote with factual errors and dubious statements in a popular press book. But for some reason, he has chosen to NOT write a peer-review article attempting to rebut the 2003 JMB article. Why not?
You argue that many, perhaps the majority of historians continue to state that FDR had polio. That's perhaps the one factual point we might agree on. But repeatedly saying something does not make it true. The key point is that none of those dismissive historians took the trouble to address the points of the 2003 JMB article. Until they do so, and objectively say what is wrong with the reasoning in the JMB article, or WHY they think FDR had polio, it doesn't add to the discussion, and is not a relevant reference. A general history with hundreds of pages that mentions FDR's illness in a few sentences is not anywhere near the same level of source material as an article or book that specifically treats the topic. But your citations of Dalakas and Lomazow shows you totally miss this distinction.
You took the radical step of renaming the FDR "Paralytic Illness" section to "Polio". Before your changes, the articles were even-handed and objective. Neither article said FDR had GBS. They said he had a paralytic illness, and objectively presented the evidence that was more likely GBS.You've decided to go out on a limb by baldly stating that FDR had polio. But the evidence does not support that, the literature doesn't support that, and based on the huge mistakes in your edits you're hardly qualified to turn the articles upside down.
Besides the other sloppiness and logical mistakes, "a conclusion was criticized by other researchers" is not even grammatically correct. You're in way too much of a hurry.
I hope you can see that it's hard for people (including yourself) to accept that something repeated countless times over some eight decades may not be true. Your comments and edits totally ignore that reality. Famous heart-touching movies saying that FDR had polio have been watched by millions. The association of FDR with the fight against polio further stamped into the public mind the idea that the cause was polio. But the scientific evidence is otherwise.
Your comments and edits show no evidence that you read the 2003 JMB article, or that you read the previous discussions. Your skepticism is not new. This has been thrashed out before, both here and in the main FDR article. Many of my comments here are just taken from what was said before. You're just the first one who let loose so freely and made such large-scale edits with no discussion. And the main evidence you offer is the silly Lomazow and Dalakas references, which are not appropriate, are even laughable.
So unless you can rebut my discussion showing why the Lomazow and Dalakas citations lack credibility, or unless there is something otherwise wrong with the logic I've presented, could you please revert your large-scale, incorrect edits? At that point, if you are still interested in the FDR illness topic, could you please read the 2003 JMB article (or maybe read it more carefully), and propose something more rational and helpful than the radical changes you've made? 71.212.99.137 ( talk) 16:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
You say "take a deep breath. No need to rush in breathing fire". But you're the one who rushed in and failed to take a deep breath before making very large changes to turn this article (and the section in the FDR article) upside down, to reverse the main conclusions.
It's not a matter of "ferocious loyalty to JMB article". I would have loyalty to any good source. It's simply that 1) the JMB article is the only source that is peer-reviewed and 2) none of the other sources critique the main issues in the JMB article or provide new information to support the diagnosis of poliomyelitis in FDR’s case. If anything, "ferocious loyalty" would lie in the other direction, where the general public (and historians) are reluctant to change a long-held and cherished belief, instilled in us all over many decades, repeated countless times without question, each decade making the confirmation bias stronger.
I agree that wikipedia needs to give sources "due weight". But the main evidence you offered was the Lomazow and Dalakas references, which are not appropriate. Now you are trying to present new sources. But you haven't reverted any of your prior large-scale edits, or given me the courtesy of responding to what I said about Lomazow and Dalakas.
You direct to "due weight to minority opinions". The examples given by wikipedia are "claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones". Do you really equate these to the scientific / medical question of the cause of FDR's paralytic illness?
Again, I'm giving you the courtesy of responding to your new citation, although the new citation is just another weak argument when your previous weak arguments have been refuted and you haven't shown the courtesy to respond. You're right that Oshinsky "states flatly that FDR had polio". But Oshinsky did not critique the main issues in the JMB article or provide new information to support the diagnosis of poliomyelitis in FDR’s case. Instead, he relied on remarks from a media interview that were taken out of context and raised other unconvincing arguments. In his final analysis Oshinsky relied upon the diagnosis made by FDR’s physicians in 1921 rather than a consideration of FDR’s symptoms and the current knowledge of neurological diseases that cause flaccid paralysis.
I never asked you to "debate the logic in the JMB article directly". I just said read the article, or read it carefully. You're trying to put words in my mouth, or you just don't read carefully.
The reason there were eight paragraphs supporting the GBS theory and one supporting the polio theory is because that's about the ratio of the available evidence. I don't think presenting factual statements qualifies as "wildly unbalanced". wikipedia is an encyclopedia that deals with facts as best we know them, from reliable sources. The substantiated facts concerning FDR's illness were previously outlined in the wikipedia article. The diagnosis of FDR’s neurological disease depends upon documented clinical abnormalities. His age, prolonged symmetric ascending paralysis, transient numbness, protracted dysaesthesiae (pain on slight touch), facial paralysis, bladder and bowel dysfunction, and absence of meningismus are typical of GBS and are inconsistent with paralytic poliomyelitis. FDR’s prolonged fever was atypical for both diseases. Finally, permanent paralysis, though commoner in paralytic poliomyelitis, is frequent in GBS. You chose to delete these facts, with no explanation. Your reasoning leads to something like the following: David Oshinsky is a "famous authority". He says FDR had polio. So that's it. We don't need to evaluate how David Oshinsky arrived at his "conclusion". Even if one (or all) of Oshinsky's arguments is wrong, it doesn't matter. It's just his "expert conclusion" that counts.
I never said "extreme minority view". You're trying to put words in my mouth.
You say you are going to "look over other sources I provide". Based on your citation of Lomazow and Dalakas, and your refusal to give me the courtesy of responding to the points I raise, I think you're hardly qualified to be some arbiter or judge of sources.
It's none of your business to suggest that I publish something. Why don't you just stick to the current impasse, that you have created? I'm not asking you to publish anything. I'm just asking you to revert the large-scale, radical edits that turn this article and section of the FDR article upside down, and take a more thoughtful, reasonable approach to this article.
You would need to clarify what do you mean by "Roosevelt researchers" and "research" upon which to base scholarly consensus. I think you have a big misunderstanding of what "research" is. Does simply repeating something that thousands have said before qualify as "research"? Or what about the Dalakas and Lomazow citations you offered as your evidence, with their factual errors and off-hand comments to a press inquiry? Do you consider those "research"?
You don't need to thank me for my interest in the article. I've been interested a long time. Instead, you need to take responsibility for the destructive, though apparently not intended as such, actions you have taken. Your edits are like a bull in a china shop.
I never said anything like "the fact that FDR researchers have ignored the JMB piece is evidence that it should be prominently included in our article". I have no idea where you got that from.
You repeatedly say "that's not how wikipedia works". But here's what wikipedia says about sources: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made." The key phrases are "each source must be carefully weighed", "directly support the information", "appropriate to the claims made", and "checking facts". I would suggest you are ignoring these factors in evaluating the reliability of the sources in this case. You count a historian who just repeats what countless others have said before as equal weight to a peer-reviewed article that specifically addresses the clinical findings in FDR's illness and has not been scientifically. They are NOT equal, not by a long shot. And I totally disagree that because some historian does not mention the JMB article that means the JMB article should have less weight. What if the historian was not aware of the JMB article? Or just wanted to avoid controversy and meet a publication date? We have no idea. But back to Lomazow and Dalakas, whom you cited as the basis for your large-scale edits, were "facts checked" in those sources? Is saying something is "a stretch" checking facts? And what about that spinal tap? Is that "checking facts"?
Again concerning "how wikipedia works", its policy makes my argument you were over-bold and need to revert your edits and go back to square one: "In many cases, the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. A careless edit to such an article might stir up a latent conflict, and other users who are involved in the page may become defensive. If you would like to make a significant edit—not just a simple copyedit—to an article on a controversial subject, it is a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety and skim the comments on the talk page. On controversial articles, the safest course is to find consensus before making changes, but there are situations when bold edits can safely be made to contentious articles.". Your large-scale edits on this admittedly controversial article fail to meet the suggested standard of trying to reach consensus first. And you stubbornly refuse to revert your edits and take a more reasonable course.
You did correct the grammatical mistake. But otherwise you left the two articles turned on their head. I've given you the courtesy to address each point you made. You didn't answer (or even address) most of the many points I raised. Again you force me to make this long reply, because you won't take back your large-scale, radical, no-time-for-discussion edits and go back to square one. To repeat, because you have ignored what I said: Unless you can rebut my discussion showing why the Lomazow and Dalakas citations lack credibility, or unless there is something otherwise wrong with the logic I've presented, could you please revert your large-scale edits, and propose something more rational and helpful to the article? 71.212.99.137 ( talk) 00:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
We've gotten off to the wrong foot in this discussion, and for that I apologize. I think the easiest way to go forward is for us each to do us a bit of research and attempt to assess what sources accept the polio hypothesis and what the GBS hypothesis. Does that make sense to you?
So far, here's how it seems to break down to me, but I'll be interested to hear your summary, too.
Sources stating FDR had polio:
Sources we have stating FDR was more likely to have had GBS:
Again, if I'm missing any sources, please note them below; I don't mean to pretend that this is a comprehensive research review (which is borderline impossible on a subject like this). I'm just having trouble seeing why we should revert to a version primarily based on a single article dissenting from the consensus. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
It appears this article was created and heavily edited by an account identifying itself as the author of one of the sources, DA Goldman ( User:Dagoldman), an account primarily used to promote Goldman's research across Wikipedia. Almost all FDR articles appear to be tainted by this account. I will be undoing these edits in the coming days. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 16:28, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm tagging the section as undue as it gives almost no discussion of the cases supporting polio, devoting a measly three sentences. — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 14:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Yesterday i came online after hearing the GBS hypothesis on a crappy history channel show, and wanted to know just how legit it was. Well, I am still not entirely sure, but based on the article after initial reading I had no idea. The section jumps around from different author to different author, painfully and obviously delineated where the point of view changes. Additionally the different authors wrote in such a hostile way towards the others' pet diagnosis. To be honest, it was like a schizophrenic or multiple-personality disorder was writing an essay. And the repeating! Within a span of about 25 lines, the fact that FDR had a fever of 102 degrees was repeated three times! And in only one of those times was any kind of context of "Why do we care that FDR had a fever, and what does that mean to the topic at hand" addressed at all. Various sections were clearly inserted as rebuttals to other sections, which gives the impression of disfunction. I had to check and make sure i hadnt stumbled upon the talk page.
Just now I did a ROUGH revision attempting to consolidate the two points of view into a more coherent narrative. Please note, I did not include any original assertions or new content (other than my own rewording of others assertions). I did not have time to check and make sure the references previous editors included actualy say what they are supposed to say, and simply took them at their word. Additionally, there are gobs of unsourced assertions that for a controversial topic like this really need to be sourced if they are going to be included. I hope khazar is still monitoring this page because he seems to know how to do this better than I do.
After reading through the talk page and article up to this point, i think I would categorize the GBS hypothesis as this: A minority viewpoint, but not a fringe viewpoint. This probably makes its mention warranted, but tempered to make clear the current consensus. My edit just now tries to do that, without falling into talk-page style colloqial language showing open hostility to the minority view. The open discussion of pros and cons however might border on original research though... thoughts anyone? If this section were to be fixed, I think this article would be reasonably helpful to future readers interested in FDR. -Paul (on desktop) 12/14/13 around 7:30 PM 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 03:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh and i agree with the undue tag mentioned above. Considering the very next section involves the topic discussed, and in fact already included repeats of the information, it seems very much like a talk-page manner rebuttal of its following section, and in argumentative colloqial language no less. I simply merged what little wasnt already mentioned in the article into the larger section below it. -Paul (on desktop) 12/14/13 around 7:30 pm even though the timestamp is off by many hours 96.41.90.226 ( talk) 03:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
There is a picture caption in this article which states "One of only three known photographs of Roosevelt in a wheelchair". However, in the Wikipedia article "Franklin D. Roosevelt" there is a sentence which states "Only two photographs taken of FDR while he was in his wheelchair are known to exist;" Bunkyray5 ( talk) 15:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
In the History section of the article, I've restored the Timeline subsection that was removed by a previous editor after this article was edited as part of the Wiki Education Foundation course assignment. As I noted in the edit summary when I restored it, some of the sourced content conflicts with recent changes. Rather than delete the information, I think a better solution would be to incorporate the bullet points in the Timeline into the new subsections within the History section. — WFinch ( talk) 14:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Vincent van Gogh's health which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
There are over a dozen citations to Prisoners of Time: The Misdiagnosis of FDR's 1921 Illness, published by EDPH Press, a division of Expert Health Data Programming, Inc., which is owned by co-author Daniel A. Goldman. [17] This would seem to be self-published. See WP:SPS Manannan67 ( talk) 00:07, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Any comments? For the reasons stated above, I intend to revert the 4/26 and 4/27 edits, after allowing a few more days for any discussion. In the meantime, may I ask that nobody edit the article? It would be nice if someone else joined the discussion. Thanks 71.212.115.192 ( talk) 16:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
It's interesting that Roosevelt was at a large gathering where food would have been served and lots of kids were present prior to the onset of his illness. The polio virus is spread by the fecal-oral route and kids in those days, when polio was fairly common, often carried the virus with no symptoms. Could Roosevelt have ingested it in food prepared by someone who was a carrier and didn't wash their hands after using the toilet? The time between the jamboree and the onset of symptoms is just about right for polio. Interesting. 47.138.89.140 ( talk) 08:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)