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I'm in the process of a first-draft translation of the featured-Portuguese article on this same topic. I'm going by only a decent conversational command of Spanish and the Babelfish/Freetranslation translators, so it's a slog. Please don't remove/alter the stuff inside the <*!-- --*> brackets; that's what I haven't yet translated (unless you want to do some translating yourself!). Thanks. :) Zafiroblue05 02:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The following comment was left on my talk page, it might also be relevant: -- Jmabel | Talk 18:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
i started to add an index to make the article more readable, i am not quite satisfied with the headlines, but at least it looks better like that... i alos added the template box, it is very helpfuzl, but should be changed to another style... -- Larzan 16:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have found almost the same text at the following URL: http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/tango/triple1864.htm
This may be a copyright violation
I have used source with permission. Anyway I will do some edits with article with more sources. -- Kulkuri 15:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, i noted the same and dropped another note, asking him to post the legitimation he has on this page.... -- Larzan 16:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Why was "northward into the Brazilian province of Mato Grosso and southward into the province of Rio Grande do Sul" changed to just "southward into the province of Rio Grande do Sul"? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:59, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite, If I get a chance Ill try soon. Poorly worded sections and missing references. (e.x. Who is Mitre ? )
Nothing about Paraguay's American friends? (anonymous, somewhat cryptic, remark, 12 March 2005)
I have substituted 'British' for 'English' which is more acceptable to non-English British readers (i.e. Welsh and Scottish) MRJ
It mentions twice that Paraguay declared war on Argentina twice in March 1865. Quite confusing due to some lack of chronological order. -Aaron 27 February 2007, 6:59 PM EST
I notice that the article lacks references. The following list comes from the corresponding Catalan article; it may be useful to someone who wants to fact-check this. If you do actually use any of these, please add them as references to the article, and cite to them appropriately for what can be verified from them. Some of these may be Spanish-language editions of works where English-language editions also exist.
The German article offers:
-- Jmabel | Talk 23:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The War of the Triple Alliance, also known as the Paraguayan War, was fought from 1864 to 1870, and was the bloodiest conflict in Latin American history (why not America History??), and the second (What is the first??) bloodiest conflict that occurred on the American continent. -->
Or I´m wrong, or this war is the first bloodiest conflict in all Americas.
If "bloodiest" is to mean anything much, ought it not be relative to the whole (a comparative)? Thus the USA civil war killed many, but not so large a proportion of the whole population, likewise an individual may be killed with the shedding of no, some, or much blood so if bloodiest is to characterise the manner of one person's death, it must relate the blood shed to that available. In this regard, only the assaults of G. Khan et al, and Tamurlane would be bloodier, as they attained nearly 100% slaughter of entire cities and provinces. During my travels in Paraguay, I read many references to (and disputes over) numbers such as these: of the population of Paraguay, women (16 years and over) 60% died, of the men (16+) 99.5% died, but I don't recall the exact details (was it the age of 14, or 12, or am I recalling those ages in a count of boys up to twelve? - a decade ago, alas) There was a book The Stupidest War in the World (in Spanish, thus I don't quite recall the proper title. Something like El Guerra mas estupido del mundo), which I now half-recall was more concerned with the Bolivian/Paraguayan battle over the Chaco, but offered comparisons.
Ought there not be some mention of the slaving raids against the Paraguyans? The post-war admission of Guarani culture into the dominant Spanish culture? The peculiar position of the surviving boys, raised by their mothers yet conforming later to machismo, and the revival of dictatorship? The shortage of menfolk and possible sharing of husbands? (very little was written on this) The early social progress (education for girls, divorce) that led to Paraguay being seen as a worker's paradise, prompting Australians, dismayed at the depression of 1880s knocking back gains, emigrating to produce their own colony at Nuevo Australia in Paraguay? Which alas sank into dictatorship and the Chaco war over oil prospecting. Regards, NickyMcLean 02:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't War of the Triple Alliance/Campaigns belong in Tempalte: space, not article space? Segv11 ( talk/ contribs) 08:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I always heard that Paraguay, after losing many man, had to use children and women in the army, but I could not find any references about this, and the only thing the article has is a picture of a boy, but it says that he is from Argentina!... What´s wrong here? -- NIC1138 03:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose to change the name of this article to “The Brazilian-Paraguayan War” And that’s because I guess even Brazilians will have to cope with the fact that Paraguay was there too. That is somehow a relief: I assume that they are taking full responsibility for the possible death toll of 1.000.000, and exonerating Argentinian officers (Mitre (the supreme commander), Gelly y Obes, Paunero, Rivas, Luis María Campos, etc) for this massacre. I imagine that we will find soon that even the son of the emperor of Brazil died in the war, like Domingo Sarmiento (h) (of course, son of the would be president of Argentina) did. Because even López before he died spoke Portuguese (he was well prepared, wasn’t he) saying “Morro com minha patria” and not the more conventional “Muero con mi patria”, that up to now was the accepted version. But what I would really like to know is how Brazil defended Paraguayan interests by keeping for himself el Mato Grosso and occupying the country for six years. (Argentina was not really in a position to claim anything, since it had two wars to fight: with the Indians and the never ending civil war with los caudillos del interior. And later even with Mitre, who supported a revolution against Avellaneda in 1874) And why, if Brazil is so concerned with territorial integrity, they are not opening the files that would explain the border settlement of 1876. (And that’s not Mitre’s La Nación, but La folha de Sao Paulo of 12-22-2004 that informs us of Lula’s, or the army’s or who knows whose decision it was, that blocked for ever this opening. They called it “sigilo eterno”, eternal silence). All this is plain nonsense. But I guess that the author(s) is/are using the books for Brazilian schools as a source for an encyclopedic article. And that, more often than not, leads to nationalistic views of history. But that shouldn’t come as a surprise: this article is an English version of the Portuguese one. As a balance of sorts, we have the Spanish version that, of course, blames the Brazilians. And the French one, que comme d’habitude, blames no one. I am not saying this article is not respecting the NPOW policy. No, I wouldn’t. It is just one-sided childish stuff. And it needs much re-writing. Ou moito máis sigilo eterno.
I’m most calmed. And certainly I didn’t want to start a little fight over this. I’m sorry if I offended someone. But the reason why I’m not contributing myself seems crystal to me now: I’m not quite proficient with the language. And frankly, I am no historian, either. However, I will try to explain myself in a much straightforward way this time. Wasn’t Bertrand Russell who used to say that people should learn history by reading the books of neighbouring countries? This is a most salutary exercise, but one that wouldn’t help with an encyclopedia article. For that we have NPOW. And the point I was trying to make was that this is a Brazilian vision of what happened. There is almost no mention of Argentinian officers (even to blame Mitre for Curupaytí) but we have a long list of Brazilians.
In fact, despite the statement of the article (and I hope that this is not acontroversial issue) Argentina did have at least one war against Brazil (not the independent Brazil, of course) between 1825 and 1827, after Brazil annexed Uruguay (Provincia Oriental del Río de la Plata) and re-named it Provincia Cisplatina. This war started with what is known as Los 33 orientales (which is part of the official history of Uruguay and you may find in Wikipedia in the Spanish section) and ended at la batalla de Ituzaingó. After that, and up to 1852, Uruguay took part in the Civil War of Argentina (in fact, many Unitarios were exiled at Montevideo which was under siege) against the tyranny of Rosas (Rivera was against, Oribe was in favor). This war ended with the intervention of Brazil against Oribe. (You may remember that 4.200 Brazilians paraded through Buenos Aires after Rosas felt). So, you see, all this goes way too back in the past. Now, I fully understand that you can not put all that in an article, but to say that Argentina and Brazil almost had had two wars is an understatement.
Of course, the Portuguese quote of the dying words of López should be removed by now, simply because he did not say them in Portuguese and this is an English article.
I am glad you found the sigilo eterno statement.
Finally, to say that Argentina wanted to annexed Paraguay and that Brazil stayed there six years to prevent it….well, that sounds a bit like a pre-emptive theory to me. First of all, because Brazil stayed there six years and Argentina did not, and secondly because you are forgetting la Doctrina Varela that stated that “La victoria no da derechos” (Victory gives no right) which was first accepted as a semi-official policy by Sarmiento, and later rejected (Mitre had something to say about that, you can imagine) but which was used in the negotiations with Brazil. And to say that Brazil (or Argentina, for all that matter) received the borders that had claimed before the war is not a legal argument, is it? Despite the heroic death of so many, and the incontrovertible fact that López invaded Corrientes, the war has always been highly criticized in Argentina. So is a shameful, but inevitable necessity to put it in the picture. And blaming one or the other won’t make this war less of a shame.
Again, I’m sorry if I offended someone. And I’m sorry for this boring post, but I thought I might contribute some way or another with some hints for a more qualified person than myself to work with. Despite being Argentinian myself I'm not enough presumptuous to meddle with someone else writing without at least as much as discussing it first.
But to reassure you nobody was calling you nor imperialist, nor anyting. Last time I was in Argentina (15 days ago) none cared nor complained about Brazil. We do not think about you, just as you do not think about us. And personally, I was most obliged to you in this travel: you were really cooperative (Polícia Federal and all) to help me find the passport I had lost at Guarulhos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.168.186.74 ( talk • contribs) 22 Jan 2006
"One estimate places total Paraguayan losses - through both war and disease - as high as 1.2 million people, or 90 percent of its pre-war population.[2] A perhaps more accurate estimate places Paraguayan deaths at approximately 300,000 people out of its 500-525,000 prewar inhabitant"
1.2 million deaths out of a population of 525,000 doesn't do much to inspire confidence in this article. Do the population estimates for Paraguay really vary between 500,000 and 1.3 million?
"In 1864 the Paraguayan army consisted of 37 batallions and 29 regiments, with a total of 35,305 soldiers and 3,306 officers. Paraguay fielded no more than 30,000 to 40,000 troops at any given time, and inducted into service 70,000 to 80,000 during the five-year war, out of a population between 312,000 and 407,000." (Vera Blinn Reber Shippensburg University: A Case of Total War: Paraguay, 1864−1870. Vera Blinn Reber source:(61) Pedro Lorela y Maury to Foreign Minister, 26 Dec. 1865, Archivo General del Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores de España (hereafter cited as AGMEE), Política Paraguay (hereafter cited as PP), Correspondencia respecto a la Guerra del Paraguay (hereafter cited as CGP), 2576; Cuadro del estado general del ejército, 1865, ANA, SH 344 no. 22; Gabriel Carrasco, La población del Paraguay, antes y después de la guerra: rectificación de opiniones generalmente aceptadas, Asunción, Talleres Nacionales de H. Kraus, 1905, p. 6; Reber. ‘Demographics of Paraguay’, pp. 295−96.
"In fact, Britain can be seen as the power that most benefited from the war: aside from exterminating the Paraguayan threat in South America, even Brazil and Argentina fell into massive debts that continue to this day (Brazil paid all British loans by Getúlio Vargas era)." The parenthetical remark seems to contradict the main sentence; there is no citation for any of this. Does someone know what is going on? - Jmabel | Talk 05:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the war changed the geography of the region significantly, I think the article could probably benefit from some prewar and postwar maps, if anyone has any. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.135.108.179 ( talk • contribs) 29 August 2006.
A map is completely necessary to further understand what the article is trying to explain. For the least if one could try to make a map to sort-of help visualize the situation. Seriously, how large was Paraguay before the war? MarshalN20 14:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it is that easy. Large portions of territory where not under effective control of any of the states (they were basically inhabited by natives), and since the region was coming from a chaotic process of independence, every country used to draw maps with the uncontrolled regions as own. This happened also with Patagonia (even the independent Buenos Aires province draw maps claiming it) and happen today wit Antarctica. I think a very serious research by scholars would be needed, and even so I don`t think enough data is known for drawing accurate and controversy-free maps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domar1973 ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "They remembered that Solano López, believing he would have Mitre's support, seized the opportunity to attack Brazil created by Mitre, when he used Argentinian Navy to deny access to River Plate to Brazilian ships in early 1865, thus starting the war." - Jmabel | Talk 16:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does a Portuguese-language link about a wargame merit mention in an encyclopedia article about this war? - Jmabel | Talk 01:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The undoubtedly too strong statement "In recent years such views [that the War of the Triple Alliance was caused by pseudo-colonial influence of the British] have been abandoned in light of the work of writers such as Francisco Doratiotto was removed, but along with it the following footnote was also removed: Mário Maestri, Revista Espaço Acadêmico, Guerra contra o Paraguai: Da Instauração à Restauração Historiográfica, Ano II, No. 2, January 2003. [5].
I'm sure there was some substance here, even if someone overstated their case. Someone may want to look into what should be restored. - Jmabel | Talk 21:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I think my last edit was called for? 70.74.35.252 11:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of this section are innacurate. Between 1870 and 1876 Argentine governments had to deal with a long series of civil revolts and Indian attacks and had no intention nor strenght to seize the Chaco by force. Moreover, Argentine president Domingo Faustino Sarmiento proclaimed his famous La victoria no da derechos ("Victory confers no rights") doctrine which summarized his willingness to negotiate with Paraguay in equal terms the territorial disputes.
The view is controvertial. Some people (e.g. Halperin Donghi) has argued that the war lead to the consolidation of the state (rather than "modernization" as was previously claimed in the article). Indeed the central effective govt was quite recent. I added a reference to a site from CEMA university: it is in spanish but is quite serious, shows different scholar views and quote numerous references. And is a quite stable resource: it's been there for many years. On the other hand, as argentinian I know the Sarmiento's quote, but I am a litle skeptic about it and its meaning (the first paragraph is not mine). Daniel Omar Badagnani ( talk) 20:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Right at the end of this section is the line, "Some even go so far as to claim Britain instigated the entire conflict." There is no citation for this so I have marked it as requiring citation. It strikes me as a rather bold statement to make without backing it up. If serious scholars or historians are making this claim then there really ought to be a reference to say who they are. I notice that there is a reference at the start of the article that such claims were made in the 60s and 70s but do not know whether such claims are still in vogue with historians of this period in South American history. IrishPete ( talk) 04:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC) The most important (or, at least, popular) proponent in Brazil of the British as instigators was Júlio José Chiavenato, em especial "A Guerra do Paraguai", Brasiliense, (1986 in the version I have, but actually first published in the lete 70s or esrly eighties). He especializes in popular history rewrites (no archival research)from a extreme left-wing point of view. At the time, the book caused quite a stir as it went against the official historiography during the miliary regime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.121.179.62 ( talk) 21:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"and was by some measures the bloodiest war in the history of the Americas"
What about the American Civil War??? Compare the casualty boxes of both. 09:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:: What about the Mexican revolution 1910-1919? (1 million killed.)
The word "bloodiest" for me suggests deaths in which the body sheds blood/ deaths in battle (Per Webster on line >bloody is applied especially to things that are actually covered with blood<)
Yet per the article >The high rates of mortality, however, were not the result of the armed conflict in itself.< The article explicitly states that Brazilian soldiers died primarily from bad food, ill health, typhoid and further that many more Paraguayians civilians died than soldiers, suggesting that more Paraguaians died because of war conditions than because of direct contact with bullets or metal blades. So about another word or phrase to replace "bloodiest" ... (jon_petrie@yahoo.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.37.93 ( talk) 04:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
OK changed end of first sentence that formerly employed "bloodiest" now >>and caused more deaths than any other South American war.<< Kits2 ( talk) 06:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
This article implies that the Chaco War, between Paraguay and Bolivia, was beneficial to Paraguay:
But the Chaco War article says:
Well, which is it? -- 208.76.104.133 ( talk) 08:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this article is classified under the Project Brazil page? How can a war that was fought by four nations be classified entirely under one? Its as if we decided to include World War 2 solely under the Germany project page. Mariscal8 ( talk) 06:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, there is no discussion regarding the occupation and ransacking of Asuncion. I will add these facts to the page. Mariscal8 ( talk) 06:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The government of Buenos Aires intended to reconstruct the territory of the old Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, enclosing Paraguay and Uruguay. It carried out diverse attempts to do so during the first half of the 19th century, without success — many times due to Brazilian intervention. Fearing excessive Argentine control, Brazil favored a balance of power in the region, helping Paraguay and Uruguay retain their sovereignty."
I don't think this is anywhere near to be true: The Argentines embarked in freeing Uruguay up from Brazil in the Argentina-Brazil war ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina-Brazil_War). It was very evident that Brazil wanted to merely seize all the territory on the East Bank of the Uruguay river, mainly to reap the economical benefits of using the Rio de la Plata ports (Montevideo). Moreover, the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata did not pursue any sort of integrationalism in order to go back to the former colonial status quo of the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata: Most of the territory that Argentina "lost" has never been claimed back.
Argentina had has, indeed, an expansionits actitud during the XIX century. The problem was that the country, living a no ending civil war, lost many time in internal fighting.
The reconstruction of the territories of the Viceroyalty was used to claim the ownership of the Patagonia. But, the country never when to far as to start a war in order to conquer territories from other conuntries, in fact, Argentina enter this war only when provocated.
So, Argentina expanded during the XIX and XX century, but mostly in the territories that where under the indians control and, more or less, respected the other conutries territories.
The original pretensions of Argentina where lost when Paraguay got it's independence in 1811, when Belgrano and other argentinan generals where push back from the Alto Peru during the independence war and from Uruguay when the posibilities of starting a new war against Brasil (without the support from England) where to real.
After that, there where little to no expansion to the nort. This war, correct me if I'm wrong, the last expansion of argentina to the North and after that the frontier takes almost it's current form. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
158.35.225.228 (
talk)
19:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Argentina did not became the wealthiest country in Latin America after the conflict. Brazil would keep it´s place as the wealthiest latin american nation until the end of the monarchy in 1889 (19 years after the war.)
Brazil´s GDP was worth US$ 11 billion in 1889 while Argentina´s GDP was worth US$ 7 billions (in 1990 value) according to Angus Maddison in "FAUSTO, Boris. Brasil e Argentina: Um ensaio de história comparada (1850-2002). São Paulo: Editoria 34. 2004".
I´ll put in here a translation of the 1st chapter of the second volume fo the biograph of Pedro II written by Heitor Lyra (LYRA, Heitor. História de dom Pedro II: Fastígio (1870-1880). São Paulo: Itatiaia, 1877) that it is still considered the best one about the second emperor:
"The end of the War of the Triple Alliance marks the apogee of the imperial regimen in Brazil. It is the golden age of the Monarchy. The Empire, can be said, reaches its full maturity." pg.9
Another piece:
"We firmed, in the Exterior, a concept that we never had before. The stability of our institutions, its conservative nature, the internal peace, the joust nomination of our politicians, the refinement of our society and, over all, the unmistakeble, respectable personality in all directions of Dom Pedro II, everything concurred to give us a reputation in the international community, with the exception of the United States of America, that no other country of America could enjoy." pg.9
According to Roderick J. Barman in "Princess Isabel of Brazil: Gender and power in the Nineteenth Century" (2002), Brazil was passing through a moment of great economic prosperity in 1889.
Emperor Pedro II would keep himself as the most beloved man by the brazilian population until the end of the monarchy and even after his death two years later (CARVALHO, José Murilo de. D. Pedro II: ser ou não ser. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2007 and DORATIOTO, Francisco. General Osorio. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2008).
The War of the Triple Alliance had consequence in the end of the monarchy because the Brazilian Army was influenced by the argentinian and uruguayan armies:
"The permanence for more than five years, of the army and the volunteers, later restituted to the civil society, in the Republics of the Plata region, it was harmful to us without a doubt. Those countries were then a school of despotism and caudillism" pg.71 (FERREIRA, Oliveiros S. Vida e morte do Partido Fardado. São Paulo: FERNAC, 2000)
Obs.: Caudillism comes from Caudillo, a common spanish-american figure that is usually a millitary who is unsubordinate and is always conspirating or trying to make coups d´Etat.
What happened is that as long the old monarchist and millitary were alive, like the Duke of Caxias, Osorio (Marquiss of Herval), the marquiss of Tamandaré, marshall Polidoro, marshall Sampaio, Admiral Barroso, the younger generation would behave. After their deaths (Osorio died in 1879 and Caxias in 1880), the Army started to became unsubordinate and rebellious. They believed that they had no obligation to accept orders from civilians (something that the old generation did) and they could try to act in politics, even if by the force of the arms. This coupled with the growing uninterest of Pedro II of keeping alive the monarchy, led to its downfall. So, the War of the Triple Alliance had long range consequences and not imediate.
I hope I helped a little bit.-- Lecen ( talk) 13:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This anonymous, unsummarized edit removed the sentence "After the war, the Catholic church temporarily allowed polygamy to help repopulate the country." I believe the sentence was accurate, but it's not cited for, and I don't know about this with certainty, so I'm not restoring at this time. It would be useful if someone would restore it with citation so that it would be easy to "defend" it in the future. - Jmabel | Talk 22:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
While it could be an enlightening metaphor in other contexts, it seems rather unencyclopedic for this article to state, "The Paraguayan people had been profoundly scarred, since López ordered troops to kill any combatant, including officers, who manifested signs of cowardice" (emphasis added). Besides, not only was scarred substituted for scared in this edit, but the meaning was pretty much the same even before this earlier one, so the former looks like an overzealous spelling correction. Splibubay ( talk) 11:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
This edit, while adapting to English the second paragraph in the lead section, taken from the Spanish version (second paragraph there, too), introduced two notable distortions in meaning:
The article insinuates that Lopez killed his own men 'talking of surrender' and cholera is why Paraguay lost 90% of their population. But if I recall, this article said two years ago that the high mortality rate was due to Paraguay's refusal to surrender, and a long guerrilla war with the Brazilians occupying Paraguay. The article seems chopped down; considering what it was before. It doesn't really describe the war in any detail, other than there were a few major battles and Lopez died a painful death. Any comments? -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 09:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
This article centers mainly on the Brazil-Paraguay struggle, but says nothing about Argentinian and Uruguayan intervention of the war, the invasion of Corrientes in Argentina, the role of Mitre in the war, some important battles like Tuyutí, which was the bloodiest battle in South America, which destroyed most of Paraguay's cavalry and forced López to take a defensive stand. It lacks details on Asuncion's pillage, in which Argentina refused to participate, at least oficially; and Argentina's position towards the end of the war. I'm Argentinian and I find this quite incomplete. Still, I don't know enough of the war in detail as to write an article, and specially in a NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.126.70 ( talk) 20:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: all moved. I also moved Women in the Paraguayan War (non-admin closure). Jenks24 ( talk) 17:50, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
– Straight to the point: the name "Paraguayan War" (16,100 results [6]) is far more used in English written sources than "War of the Triple Alliance" (6,080 results [7]). Lecen ( talk) 15:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm surprised the title has been changed to fit a mainly Brazilian POV name. In any case, the google hits I get for "Paraguayan War" are 71,500, whereas the "War of the Triple Alliance" receives almost 4x the amount of hits 274,000. Based on this evidence, the page should be returned to its former NPOV and most common English title of "War of the Triple Alliance". Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 23:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I quick google search show 1.500.000 results for "War of the triple Alliance", while 1.200.000 for Paraguayan War. Paraguay also had a war against Bolivia (The Chaco War). How is that war less "paraguayan" than the previous war. That name was and is mainly used by Brazil, translations of their material retain the naming, everywhere else is either "The War of the Triple Alliance" or "The War against the Triple Alliance". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 ( talk) 09:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
The following excerpt should be removed: "This industrial and military growth required some contact with the international market, but Paraguay is and was a landlocked country. Its ports were river ports, and Paraguayan and other ships had to travel down the Río Paraguay and the Río Paraná to reach the estuary of the Río de la Plata (shared by Argentina and Uruguay) and the Atlantic Ocean. President Solano López conceived of a project to obtain ports on the Atlantic Ocean: he probably intended to create a "Greater Paraguay" by capturing a slice of Brazilian territory that would link Paraguay to the Atlantic coast."
The reference "Brandon Valeriano, "A Classification of Interstate War: Typologies and Rivalry." Article based on talk given March 17–20, 2004 to the International Studies Association in Montreal. File available at [1], accessed December 30, 2005." is broken.
A quick google search return this: http://tigger.uic.edu/~bvaler/ClassificationWar%20SPSA.doc [Google search removed because of URL filters]
Where this paragraph reads: " Likewise, the Lopez War involved intervention in a civil war by the different parties, but at the same time Langer (1972: 848) recognizes that Francisco Solano Lopez’s father and previous President of Paraguay “has asserted Paraguayan territorial claims against Argentina and Brazil…” and that his son “desired territory and perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay.” Langer (1972: 848) concludes that,“The ambitions of Lopez, Brazilian intervention in Uruguay”… [Lopez’s support of the other faction in Uruguay] and unsettled territorial claims …brought about the war.” "
The author bibliography says : Langer, William L. 1980. An Encyclopedia of World History, 5th ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.
The author uses three separate statements by Langer to draw a conclusion. The second statement is both an assertion "he wanted territory" and speculation "perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay" by Langer, the third asserts that Lopez ambitions along with Brazilian intervention started the whole mess. Lopez "ambitions" now including un-proven speculation.
Furthermore the Sixth Edition of" Langer, William L. An Encyclopedia of World History, BOSTON: HOUGHTON MIFFLIN COMPANY, 2001 NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 2002 has no mention of this. But it says: "López [Carlos Antonio] relaxed Dr. Francia's isolationism, hiring foreign technicians, engineers, and artisans to build up his military. But the neighboring countries still refused to recognize Paraguay's independence. Rosas, the Argentine dictator, closed the Paraná River to vessels bound to Asunción. In 1849, tensions intensified, and López prepared for war. Brazil and Uruguay, both in conflict with Rosas, recognized Paraguay. After Rosas's fall, the Argentine Confederation recognized Paraguay's independence and its right to free navigation (1852)."
There were serious concerns about armed conflict but nothing on a "Greater Paraguay" master plan. The whole concept is ridiculuos, there simply was no manpower for ocupation, few roads and most transport was fluvial. When Lopez attacked the brazilians it was at the north of the country not at the east. There was no way to occupy and resupply troops in a such circunnstances. Also there would be no need to pass through argentinian territory if Lopez wanted to conquer the zones on the east.
There is simply no reliable reference to this "Greater Paraguay" thingy. And there is no reasonable way to theorize on such a plan. Lopez was no good militarily but wasn't an complete idiot either.
I could not find a 5th edition, so I can't say the quotations from book are wrong. The 6th edition either remove them or they were never there. Also the author presented this in a paper with little more evidence and in a non neutral poit of view, trying to promote his paper.
I'll wait some weeks and then I'll remove the paragraph and refence to the "Greater Paraguay" issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 ( talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Both are apparently common names and reasonable titles; it's just a matter of deciding between two good alternatives. "War of the Triple Alliance" returns about 164,000 hits on Google Books [14] while "Paraguayan War" returns over 57,000 [15] However, recent sources seem to favor "Paraguayan War" slightly; WOTTA gets 2550 hits on Google Books since 2000; [16] while "Paraguayan War" gets 3190. [17] Additionally, I get 808 hits [18] on Google Scholar for the former, compared to 1,250 for the latter. [19] If anyone wants to move the page again, it needs to go through another move discussion.-- Cúchullain t/ c 20:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Jenks, I think that's very helpful. In response to a comment above I'd like to add that the name of the war in other languages is irrelevant if there's a common name (or names) in English. This appears to be a choice between two solid, demonstrably common alternative names for this subject in English. Cúchullain t/ c 03:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Another problem with "Paraguayan War", which was already noted before, is that other "Paraguayan Wars" actually do exist:
In an attempt to fix the problem, which seems to be one resulting from the search, I used "The Paraguayan War" (a much more exact term than the ambiguous "Paraguayan War"; the ambiguity a problem also relevant to Wikipedia), and that resulted in the following: [24]. Based on that ngram, "War of the Triple Alliance" is more common than "The Paraguayan War".
--- Lecen, your attitude in this discussion (particularly towards WCM) is really getting annoying. Don't take this matter as a personal crusade, so please calm down. Now, regarding the alleged confusion of "Triple Alliances", I know for a fact that in the United States historians prefer the term "War of the Triple Alliance" exactly because "Paraguayan War" can be identified as other wars in which Paraguay has been involved. With this in mind, and given WCM's opinion, your claim that "War of the Triple Alliance" is an ambiguous term is erroneous. Previously, Lecen accused me of having a Peruvian-bias (not sure how that even makes sense in this discussion), but I took the time to find sources which validate my claim that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV name. Here are the results:
I believe this confirms that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV term. Another example to make in this case is comparing how each title (Paraguayan War, War of the Triple Alliance) would fare as disambiguation pages. While "Paraguayan War" would easily serve as a disambiguation page for three conflicts (Independence, WOTTA, and Chaco), "War of the Triple Alliance" would be a poor disambiguation page as no other major conflict in world history has ever been called the "War of the Triple Alliance."-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved, Commonname criteria difficult to apply here as both alternatives are widely used. Paraguayan War is unambiguous while titles with Triple Alliance could be confused with other triple alliances. In doing my own fact finding, page views for this article hovered around ~200-300 per 30 days under the old title War of the Triple Alliance. After the change to Paraguayan War in 09/11, pages view have jumped at least 10X and as high a 20X in some months. Indicates to me that Paraguayan War is serving the reader well. Editors who impune other editors with COI, POV and other such personal affronts weaken their own arguments immensely and should avoid doing do. This dicussion should always be about the merits of the title, not those discussing those merits. Mike Cline ( talk) 21:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
– "War of the Triple Alliance" was the original name of the article. "Paraguayan War" is an ambiguous term that can be confused with other wars which involved Paraguay (Particularly the Paraguayan War of the Independence and the Bolivian-Paraguayan War), and it seems to fit a Brazilian POV on the matter (while not greatly significant, in Spanish and French the conflict is also called "War of the Triple Alliance"). You can read more about this, and the counter-claims, on the discussion above this requested move. MarshalN20 | Talk 15:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment Despite the misinformed assertions in the proposal, the term "Paraguayan War" has a long history in English-language scholarship. This may be observed even during the war itself (see Hutchinson, Thomas J. 1868. The Paraná: With Incidents of the Paraguayan War and South American Recollections and many other contemporary accounts). Nor is the term a "Brazilianism"—2 of the most extensive accounts in Spanish (Cárcano, Ramón. 1938-40. Guerra del Paraguay and Efraim Cardozo. 1954. Visperas de la Guerra del Paraguay) designate the conflict as the "Paraguayan War". In recent scholarship, the term "Paraguayan War" is used in repected journals (see Whigham and Potthast. "The Paraguayan Rosetta Stone: New Insights into the Demographics of the Paraguayan War, 1864–1870", Latin American Research Review. Vol. 34. No. 1. 1999.) and in a large body of other published works (see Bethel, Leslie. 1994. The Cambridge History of Latin America; Box, Pelham Horton. 1967. The Origins of the Paraguayan War; Francis, J. Michael. 2006. Iberia and the Americas: Culture, Politics and History; Henderson, James D.; et. al. 2000. A Reference Guide to Latin American History; Hendrik Kraay in Brown, Christopher Leslie; et al. 2006. Arming Slaves: from Classical Times to the Modern Age; Kolinski, Charles. 1965. The Story of the Paraguayan War; Peterson, Harold F. 1964. Argentina and the United States 1810–1960; Whigham, Thomas. 2002. The Paraguayan War: Causes and Early Conduct; among many, many others). The eminent South American historian W.H. Koebel even gave the reasoning for the title: "...South American historians are unanimous in giving the strife which broke out in 1864 the name of the Paraguayan War. This is appropriate enough, for a number of reasons, one of them being that, after the first invading expedition on the part of the Paraguayan armies, the war was fought out on Paraguayan soil." I am appalled at the mischaracterization, disinformation and tactics being used to push this proposal. • Astynax talk 19:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Sure:
I would suggest trying this for yourself and experimenting with different means of searching, what is apparent is that "War of the Triple Alliance" is more common. Nor did I say "Paraguayan War" is POV, it is simply the minority term. I suggest such assertions about POV are clearly wrong. Wee Curry Monster talk 01:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
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I'm in the process of a first-draft translation of the featured-Portuguese article on this same topic. I'm going by only a decent conversational command of Spanish and the Babelfish/Freetranslation translators, so it's a slog. Please don't remove/alter the stuff inside the <*!-- --*> brackets; that's what I haven't yet translated (unless you want to do some translating yourself!). Thanks. :) Zafiroblue05 02:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The following comment was left on my talk page, it might also be relevant: -- Jmabel | Talk 18:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
i started to add an index to make the article more readable, i am not quite satisfied with the headlines, but at least it looks better like that... i alos added the template box, it is very helpfuzl, but should be changed to another style... -- Larzan 16:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have found almost the same text at the following URL: http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/tango/triple1864.htm
This may be a copyright violation
I have used source with permission. Anyway I will do some edits with article with more sources. -- Kulkuri 15:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, i noted the same and dropped another note, asking him to post the legitimation he has on this page.... -- Larzan 16:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Why was "northward into the Brazilian province of Mato Grosso and southward into the province of Rio Grande do Sul" changed to just "southward into the province of Rio Grande do Sul"? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:59, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite, If I get a chance Ill try soon. Poorly worded sections and missing references. (e.x. Who is Mitre ? )
Nothing about Paraguay's American friends? (anonymous, somewhat cryptic, remark, 12 March 2005)
I have substituted 'British' for 'English' which is more acceptable to non-English British readers (i.e. Welsh and Scottish) MRJ
It mentions twice that Paraguay declared war on Argentina twice in March 1865. Quite confusing due to some lack of chronological order. -Aaron 27 February 2007, 6:59 PM EST
I notice that the article lacks references. The following list comes from the corresponding Catalan article; it may be useful to someone who wants to fact-check this. If you do actually use any of these, please add them as references to the article, and cite to them appropriately for what can be verified from them. Some of these may be Spanish-language editions of works where English-language editions also exist.
The German article offers:
-- Jmabel | Talk 23:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The War of the Triple Alliance, also known as the Paraguayan War, was fought from 1864 to 1870, and was the bloodiest conflict in Latin American history (why not America History??), and the second (What is the first??) bloodiest conflict that occurred on the American continent. -->
Or I´m wrong, or this war is the first bloodiest conflict in all Americas.
If "bloodiest" is to mean anything much, ought it not be relative to the whole (a comparative)? Thus the USA civil war killed many, but not so large a proportion of the whole population, likewise an individual may be killed with the shedding of no, some, or much blood so if bloodiest is to characterise the manner of one person's death, it must relate the blood shed to that available. In this regard, only the assaults of G. Khan et al, and Tamurlane would be bloodier, as they attained nearly 100% slaughter of entire cities and provinces. During my travels in Paraguay, I read many references to (and disputes over) numbers such as these: of the population of Paraguay, women (16 years and over) 60% died, of the men (16+) 99.5% died, but I don't recall the exact details (was it the age of 14, or 12, or am I recalling those ages in a count of boys up to twelve? - a decade ago, alas) There was a book The Stupidest War in the World (in Spanish, thus I don't quite recall the proper title. Something like El Guerra mas estupido del mundo), which I now half-recall was more concerned with the Bolivian/Paraguayan battle over the Chaco, but offered comparisons.
Ought there not be some mention of the slaving raids against the Paraguyans? The post-war admission of Guarani culture into the dominant Spanish culture? The peculiar position of the surviving boys, raised by their mothers yet conforming later to machismo, and the revival of dictatorship? The shortage of menfolk and possible sharing of husbands? (very little was written on this) The early social progress (education for girls, divorce) that led to Paraguay being seen as a worker's paradise, prompting Australians, dismayed at the depression of 1880s knocking back gains, emigrating to produce their own colony at Nuevo Australia in Paraguay? Which alas sank into dictatorship and the Chaco war over oil prospecting. Regards, NickyMcLean 02:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't War of the Triple Alliance/Campaigns belong in Tempalte: space, not article space? Segv11 ( talk/ contribs) 08:11, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I always heard that Paraguay, after losing many man, had to use children and women in the army, but I could not find any references about this, and the only thing the article has is a picture of a boy, but it says that he is from Argentina!... What´s wrong here? -- NIC1138 03:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose to change the name of this article to “The Brazilian-Paraguayan War” And that’s because I guess even Brazilians will have to cope with the fact that Paraguay was there too. That is somehow a relief: I assume that they are taking full responsibility for the possible death toll of 1.000.000, and exonerating Argentinian officers (Mitre (the supreme commander), Gelly y Obes, Paunero, Rivas, Luis María Campos, etc) for this massacre. I imagine that we will find soon that even the son of the emperor of Brazil died in the war, like Domingo Sarmiento (h) (of course, son of the would be president of Argentina) did. Because even López before he died spoke Portuguese (he was well prepared, wasn’t he) saying “Morro com minha patria” and not the more conventional “Muero con mi patria”, that up to now was the accepted version. But what I would really like to know is how Brazil defended Paraguayan interests by keeping for himself el Mato Grosso and occupying the country for six years. (Argentina was not really in a position to claim anything, since it had two wars to fight: with the Indians and the never ending civil war with los caudillos del interior. And later even with Mitre, who supported a revolution against Avellaneda in 1874) And why, if Brazil is so concerned with territorial integrity, they are not opening the files that would explain the border settlement of 1876. (And that’s not Mitre’s La Nación, but La folha de Sao Paulo of 12-22-2004 that informs us of Lula’s, or the army’s or who knows whose decision it was, that blocked for ever this opening. They called it “sigilo eterno”, eternal silence). All this is plain nonsense. But I guess that the author(s) is/are using the books for Brazilian schools as a source for an encyclopedic article. And that, more often than not, leads to nationalistic views of history. But that shouldn’t come as a surprise: this article is an English version of the Portuguese one. As a balance of sorts, we have the Spanish version that, of course, blames the Brazilians. And the French one, que comme d’habitude, blames no one. I am not saying this article is not respecting the NPOW policy. No, I wouldn’t. It is just one-sided childish stuff. And it needs much re-writing. Ou moito máis sigilo eterno.
I’m most calmed. And certainly I didn’t want to start a little fight over this. I’m sorry if I offended someone. But the reason why I’m not contributing myself seems crystal to me now: I’m not quite proficient with the language. And frankly, I am no historian, either. However, I will try to explain myself in a much straightforward way this time. Wasn’t Bertrand Russell who used to say that people should learn history by reading the books of neighbouring countries? This is a most salutary exercise, but one that wouldn’t help with an encyclopedia article. For that we have NPOW. And the point I was trying to make was that this is a Brazilian vision of what happened. There is almost no mention of Argentinian officers (even to blame Mitre for Curupaytí) but we have a long list of Brazilians.
In fact, despite the statement of the article (and I hope that this is not acontroversial issue) Argentina did have at least one war against Brazil (not the independent Brazil, of course) between 1825 and 1827, after Brazil annexed Uruguay (Provincia Oriental del Río de la Plata) and re-named it Provincia Cisplatina. This war started with what is known as Los 33 orientales (which is part of the official history of Uruguay and you may find in Wikipedia in the Spanish section) and ended at la batalla de Ituzaingó. After that, and up to 1852, Uruguay took part in the Civil War of Argentina (in fact, many Unitarios were exiled at Montevideo which was under siege) against the tyranny of Rosas (Rivera was against, Oribe was in favor). This war ended with the intervention of Brazil against Oribe. (You may remember that 4.200 Brazilians paraded through Buenos Aires after Rosas felt). So, you see, all this goes way too back in the past. Now, I fully understand that you can not put all that in an article, but to say that Argentina and Brazil almost had had two wars is an understatement.
Of course, the Portuguese quote of the dying words of López should be removed by now, simply because he did not say them in Portuguese and this is an English article.
I am glad you found the sigilo eterno statement.
Finally, to say that Argentina wanted to annexed Paraguay and that Brazil stayed there six years to prevent it….well, that sounds a bit like a pre-emptive theory to me. First of all, because Brazil stayed there six years and Argentina did not, and secondly because you are forgetting la Doctrina Varela that stated that “La victoria no da derechos” (Victory gives no right) which was first accepted as a semi-official policy by Sarmiento, and later rejected (Mitre had something to say about that, you can imagine) but which was used in the negotiations with Brazil. And to say that Brazil (or Argentina, for all that matter) received the borders that had claimed before the war is not a legal argument, is it? Despite the heroic death of so many, and the incontrovertible fact that López invaded Corrientes, the war has always been highly criticized in Argentina. So is a shameful, but inevitable necessity to put it in the picture. And blaming one or the other won’t make this war less of a shame.
Again, I’m sorry if I offended someone. And I’m sorry for this boring post, but I thought I might contribute some way or another with some hints for a more qualified person than myself to work with. Despite being Argentinian myself I'm not enough presumptuous to meddle with someone else writing without at least as much as discussing it first.
But to reassure you nobody was calling you nor imperialist, nor anyting. Last time I was in Argentina (15 days ago) none cared nor complained about Brazil. We do not think about you, just as you do not think about us. And personally, I was most obliged to you in this travel: you were really cooperative (Polícia Federal and all) to help me find the passport I had lost at Guarulhos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.168.186.74 ( talk • contribs) 22 Jan 2006
"One estimate places total Paraguayan losses - through both war and disease - as high as 1.2 million people, or 90 percent of its pre-war population.[2] A perhaps more accurate estimate places Paraguayan deaths at approximately 300,000 people out of its 500-525,000 prewar inhabitant"
1.2 million deaths out of a population of 525,000 doesn't do much to inspire confidence in this article. Do the population estimates for Paraguay really vary between 500,000 and 1.3 million?
"In 1864 the Paraguayan army consisted of 37 batallions and 29 regiments, with a total of 35,305 soldiers and 3,306 officers. Paraguay fielded no more than 30,000 to 40,000 troops at any given time, and inducted into service 70,000 to 80,000 during the five-year war, out of a population between 312,000 and 407,000." (Vera Blinn Reber Shippensburg University: A Case of Total War: Paraguay, 1864−1870. Vera Blinn Reber source:(61) Pedro Lorela y Maury to Foreign Minister, 26 Dec. 1865, Archivo General del Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores de España (hereafter cited as AGMEE), Política Paraguay (hereafter cited as PP), Correspondencia respecto a la Guerra del Paraguay (hereafter cited as CGP), 2576; Cuadro del estado general del ejército, 1865, ANA, SH 344 no. 22; Gabriel Carrasco, La población del Paraguay, antes y después de la guerra: rectificación de opiniones generalmente aceptadas, Asunción, Talleres Nacionales de H. Kraus, 1905, p. 6; Reber. ‘Demographics of Paraguay’, pp. 295−96.
"In fact, Britain can be seen as the power that most benefited from the war: aside from exterminating the Paraguayan threat in South America, even Brazil and Argentina fell into massive debts that continue to this day (Brazil paid all British loans by Getúlio Vargas era)." The parenthetical remark seems to contradict the main sentence; there is no citation for any of this. Does someone know what is going on? - Jmabel | Talk 05:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Considering that the war changed the geography of the region significantly, I think the article could probably benefit from some prewar and postwar maps, if anyone has any. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.135.108.179 ( talk • contribs) 29 August 2006.
A map is completely necessary to further understand what the article is trying to explain. For the least if one could try to make a map to sort-of help visualize the situation. Seriously, how large was Paraguay before the war? MarshalN20 14:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it is that easy. Large portions of territory where not under effective control of any of the states (they were basically inhabited by natives), and since the region was coming from a chaotic process of independence, every country used to draw maps with the uncontrolled regions as own. This happened also with Patagonia (even the independent Buenos Aires province draw maps claiming it) and happen today wit Antarctica. I think a very serious research by scholars would be needed, and even so I don`t think enough data is known for drawing accurate and controversy-free maps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domar1973 ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "They remembered that Solano López, believing he would have Mitre's support, seized the opportunity to attack Brazil created by Mitre, when he used Argentinian Navy to deny access to River Plate to Brazilian ships in early 1865, thus starting the war." - Jmabel | Talk 16:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does a Portuguese-language link about a wargame merit mention in an encyclopedia article about this war? - Jmabel | Talk 01:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The undoubtedly too strong statement "In recent years such views [that the War of the Triple Alliance was caused by pseudo-colonial influence of the British] have been abandoned in light of the work of writers such as Francisco Doratiotto was removed, but along with it the following footnote was also removed: Mário Maestri, Revista Espaço Acadêmico, Guerra contra o Paraguai: Da Instauração à Restauração Historiográfica, Ano II, No. 2, January 2003. [5].
I'm sure there was some substance here, even if someone overstated their case. Someone may want to look into what should be restored. - Jmabel | Talk 21:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I think my last edit was called for? 70.74.35.252 11:15, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of this section are innacurate. Between 1870 and 1876 Argentine governments had to deal with a long series of civil revolts and Indian attacks and had no intention nor strenght to seize the Chaco by force. Moreover, Argentine president Domingo Faustino Sarmiento proclaimed his famous La victoria no da derechos ("Victory confers no rights") doctrine which summarized his willingness to negotiate with Paraguay in equal terms the territorial disputes.
The view is controvertial. Some people (e.g. Halperin Donghi) has argued that the war lead to the consolidation of the state (rather than "modernization" as was previously claimed in the article). Indeed the central effective govt was quite recent. I added a reference to a site from CEMA university: it is in spanish but is quite serious, shows different scholar views and quote numerous references. And is a quite stable resource: it's been there for many years. On the other hand, as argentinian I know the Sarmiento's quote, but I am a litle skeptic about it and its meaning (the first paragraph is not mine). Daniel Omar Badagnani ( talk) 20:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Right at the end of this section is the line, "Some even go so far as to claim Britain instigated the entire conflict." There is no citation for this so I have marked it as requiring citation. It strikes me as a rather bold statement to make without backing it up. If serious scholars or historians are making this claim then there really ought to be a reference to say who they are. I notice that there is a reference at the start of the article that such claims were made in the 60s and 70s but do not know whether such claims are still in vogue with historians of this period in South American history. IrishPete ( talk) 04:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC) The most important (or, at least, popular) proponent in Brazil of the British as instigators was Júlio José Chiavenato, em especial "A Guerra do Paraguai", Brasiliense, (1986 in the version I have, but actually first published in the lete 70s or esrly eighties). He especializes in popular history rewrites (no archival research)from a extreme left-wing point of view. At the time, the book caused quite a stir as it went against the official historiography during the miliary regime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.121.179.62 ( talk) 21:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"and was by some measures the bloodiest war in the history of the Americas"
What about the American Civil War??? Compare the casualty boxes of both. 09:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:: What about the Mexican revolution 1910-1919? (1 million killed.)
The word "bloodiest" for me suggests deaths in which the body sheds blood/ deaths in battle (Per Webster on line >bloody is applied especially to things that are actually covered with blood<)
Yet per the article >The high rates of mortality, however, were not the result of the armed conflict in itself.< The article explicitly states that Brazilian soldiers died primarily from bad food, ill health, typhoid and further that many more Paraguayians civilians died than soldiers, suggesting that more Paraguaians died because of war conditions than because of direct contact with bullets or metal blades. So about another word or phrase to replace "bloodiest" ... (jon_petrie@yahoo.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.37.93 ( talk) 04:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
OK changed end of first sentence that formerly employed "bloodiest" now >>and caused more deaths than any other South American war.<< Kits2 ( talk) 06:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
This article implies that the Chaco War, between Paraguay and Bolivia, was beneficial to Paraguay:
But the Chaco War article says:
Well, which is it? -- 208.76.104.133 ( talk) 08:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain to me why this article is classified under the Project Brazil page? How can a war that was fought by four nations be classified entirely under one? Its as if we decided to include World War 2 solely under the Germany project page. Mariscal8 ( talk) 06:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, there is no discussion regarding the occupation and ransacking of Asuncion. I will add these facts to the page. Mariscal8 ( talk) 06:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The government of Buenos Aires intended to reconstruct the territory of the old Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, enclosing Paraguay and Uruguay. It carried out diverse attempts to do so during the first half of the 19th century, without success — many times due to Brazilian intervention. Fearing excessive Argentine control, Brazil favored a balance of power in the region, helping Paraguay and Uruguay retain their sovereignty."
I don't think this is anywhere near to be true: The Argentines embarked in freeing Uruguay up from Brazil in the Argentina-Brazil war ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina-Brazil_War). It was very evident that Brazil wanted to merely seize all the territory on the East Bank of the Uruguay river, mainly to reap the economical benefits of using the Rio de la Plata ports (Montevideo). Moreover, the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata did not pursue any sort of integrationalism in order to go back to the former colonial status quo of the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata: Most of the territory that Argentina "lost" has never been claimed back.
Argentina had has, indeed, an expansionits actitud during the XIX century. The problem was that the country, living a no ending civil war, lost many time in internal fighting.
The reconstruction of the territories of the Viceroyalty was used to claim the ownership of the Patagonia. But, the country never when to far as to start a war in order to conquer territories from other conuntries, in fact, Argentina enter this war only when provocated.
So, Argentina expanded during the XIX and XX century, but mostly in the territories that where under the indians control and, more or less, respected the other conutries territories.
The original pretensions of Argentina where lost when Paraguay got it's independence in 1811, when Belgrano and other argentinan generals where push back from the Alto Peru during the independence war and from Uruguay when the posibilities of starting a new war against Brasil (without the support from England) where to real.
After that, there where little to no expansion to the nort. This war, correct me if I'm wrong, the last expansion of argentina to the North and after that the frontier takes almost it's current form. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
158.35.225.228 (
talk)
19:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Argentina did not became the wealthiest country in Latin America after the conflict. Brazil would keep it´s place as the wealthiest latin american nation until the end of the monarchy in 1889 (19 years after the war.)
Brazil´s GDP was worth US$ 11 billion in 1889 while Argentina´s GDP was worth US$ 7 billions (in 1990 value) according to Angus Maddison in "FAUSTO, Boris. Brasil e Argentina: Um ensaio de história comparada (1850-2002). São Paulo: Editoria 34. 2004".
I´ll put in here a translation of the 1st chapter of the second volume fo the biograph of Pedro II written by Heitor Lyra (LYRA, Heitor. História de dom Pedro II: Fastígio (1870-1880). São Paulo: Itatiaia, 1877) that it is still considered the best one about the second emperor:
"The end of the War of the Triple Alliance marks the apogee of the imperial regimen in Brazil. It is the golden age of the Monarchy. The Empire, can be said, reaches its full maturity." pg.9
Another piece:
"We firmed, in the Exterior, a concept that we never had before. The stability of our institutions, its conservative nature, the internal peace, the joust nomination of our politicians, the refinement of our society and, over all, the unmistakeble, respectable personality in all directions of Dom Pedro II, everything concurred to give us a reputation in the international community, with the exception of the United States of America, that no other country of America could enjoy." pg.9
According to Roderick J. Barman in "Princess Isabel of Brazil: Gender and power in the Nineteenth Century" (2002), Brazil was passing through a moment of great economic prosperity in 1889.
Emperor Pedro II would keep himself as the most beloved man by the brazilian population until the end of the monarchy and even after his death two years later (CARVALHO, José Murilo de. D. Pedro II: ser ou não ser. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2007 and DORATIOTO, Francisco. General Osorio. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2008).
The War of the Triple Alliance had consequence in the end of the monarchy because the Brazilian Army was influenced by the argentinian and uruguayan armies:
"The permanence for more than five years, of the army and the volunteers, later restituted to the civil society, in the Republics of the Plata region, it was harmful to us without a doubt. Those countries were then a school of despotism and caudillism" pg.71 (FERREIRA, Oliveiros S. Vida e morte do Partido Fardado. São Paulo: FERNAC, 2000)
Obs.: Caudillism comes from Caudillo, a common spanish-american figure that is usually a millitary who is unsubordinate and is always conspirating or trying to make coups d´Etat.
What happened is that as long the old monarchist and millitary were alive, like the Duke of Caxias, Osorio (Marquiss of Herval), the marquiss of Tamandaré, marshall Polidoro, marshall Sampaio, Admiral Barroso, the younger generation would behave. After their deaths (Osorio died in 1879 and Caxias in 1880), the Army started to became unsubordinate and rebellious. They believed that they had no obligation to accept orders from civilians (something that the old generation did) and they could try to act in politics, even if by the force of the arms. This coupled with the growing uninterest of Pedro II of keeping alive the monarchy, led to its downfall. So, the War of the Triple Alliance had long range consequences and not imediate.
I hope I helped a little bit.-- Lecen ( talk) 13:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This anonymous, unsummarized edit removed the sentence "After the war, the Catholic church temporarily allowed polygamy to help repopulate the country." I believe the sentence was accurate, but it's not cited for, and I don't know about this with certainty, so I'm not restoring at this time. It would be useful if someone would restore it with citation so that it would be easy to "defend" it in the future. - Jmabel | Talk 22:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
While it could be an enlightening metaphor in other contexts, it seems rather unencyclopedic for this article to state, "The Paraguayan people had been profoundly scarred, since López ordered troops to kill any combatant, including officers, who manifested signs of cowardice" (emphasis added). Besides, not only was scarred substituted for scared in this edit, but the meaning was pretty much the same even before this earlier one, so the former looks like an overzealous spelling correction. Splibubay ( talk) 11:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
This edit, while adapting to English the second paragraph in the lead section, taken from the Spanish version (second paragraph there, too), introduced two notable distortions in meaning:
The article insinuates that Lopez killed his own men 'talking of surrender' and cholera is why Paraguay lost 90% of their population. But if I recall, this article said two years ago that the high mortality rate was due to Paraguay's refusal to surrender, and a long guerrilla war with the Brazilians occupying Paraguay. The article seems chopped down; considering what it was before. It doesn't really describe the war in any detail, other than there were a few major battles and Lopez died a painful death. Any comments? -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 09:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
This article centers mainly on the Brazil-Paraguay struggle, but says nothing about Argentinian and Uruguayan intervention of the war, the invasion of Corrientes in Argentina, the role of Mitre in the war, some important battles like Tuyutí, which was the bloodiest battle in South America, which destroyed most of Paraguay's cavalry and forced López to take a defensive stand. It lacks details on Asuncion's pillage, in which Argentina refused to participate, at least oficially; and Argentina's position towards the end of the war. I'm Argentinian and I find this quite incomplete. Still, I don't know enough of the war in detail as to write an article, and specially in a NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.126.70 ( talk) 20:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: all moved. I also moved Women in the Paraguayan War (non-admin closure). Jenks24 ( talk) 17:50, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
– Straight to the point: the name "Paraguayan War" (16,100 results [6]) is far more used in English written sources than "War of the Triple Alliance" (6,080 results [7]). Lecen ( talk) 15:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm surprised the title has been changed to fit a mainly Brazilian POV name. In any case, the google hits I get for "Paraguayan War" are 71,500, whereas the "War of the Triple Alliance" receives almost 4x the amount of hits 274,000. Based on this evidence, the page should be returned to its former NPOV and most common English title of "War of the Triple Alliance". Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 23:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I quick google search show 1.500.000 results for "War of the triple Alliance", while 1.200.000 for Paraguayan War. Paraguay also had a war against Bolivia (The Chaco War). How is that war less "paraguayan" than the previous war. That name was and is mainly used by Brazil, translations of their material retain the naming, everywhere else is either "The War of the Triple Alliance" or "The War against the Triple Alliance". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 ( talk) 09:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
The following excerpt should be removed: "This industrial and military growth required some contact with the international market, but Paraguay is and was a landlocked country. Its ports were river ports, and Paraguayan and other ships had to travel down the Río Paraguay and the Río Paraná to reach the estuary of the Río de la Plata (shared by Argentina and Uruguay) and the Atlantic Ocean. President Solano López conceived of a project to obtain ports on the Atlantic Ocean: he probably intended to create a "Greater Paraguay" by capturing a slice of Brazilian territory that would link Paraguay to the Atlantic coast."
The reference "Brandon Valeriano, "A Classification of Interstate War: Typologies and Rivalry." Article based on talk given March 17–20, 2004 to the International Studies Association in Montreal. File available at [1], accessed December 30, 2005." is broken.
A quick google search return this: http://tigger.uic.edu/~bvaler/ClassificationWar%20SPSA.doc [Google search removed because of URL filters]
Where this paragraph reads: " Likewise, the Lopez War involved intervention in a civil war by the different parties, but at the same time Langer (1972: 848) recognizes that Francisco Solano Lopez’s father and previous President of Paraguay “has asserted Paraguayan territorial claims against Argentina and Brazil…” and that his son “desired territory and perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay.” Langer (1972: 848) concludes that,“The ambitions of Lopez, Brazilian intervention in Uruguay”… [Lopez’s support of the other faction in Uruguay] and unsettled territorial claims …brought about the war.” "
The author bibliography says : Langer, William L. 1980. An Encyclopedia of World History, 5th ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.
The author uses three separate statements by Langer to draw a conclusion. The second statement is both an assertion "he wanted territory" and speculation "perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay" by Langer, the third asserts that Lopez ambitions along with Brazilian intervention started the whole mess. Lopez "ambitions" now including un-proven speculation.
Furthermore the Sixth Edition of" Langer, William L. An Encyclopedia of World History, BOSTON: HOUGHTON MIFFLIN COMPANY, 2001 NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 2002 has no mention of this. But it says: "López [Carlos Antonio] relaxed Dr. Francia's isolationism, hiring foreign technicians, engineers, and artisans to build up his military. But the neighboring countries still refused to recognize Paraguay's independence. Rosas, the Argentine dictator, closed the Paraná River to vessels bound to Asunción. In 1849, tensions intensified, and López prepared for war. Brazil and Uruguay, both in conflict with Rosas, recognized Paraguay. After Rosas's fall, the Argentine Confederation recognized Paraguay's independence and its right to free navigation (1852)."
There were serious concerns about armed conflict but nothing on a "Greater Paraguay" master plan. The whole concept is ridiculuos, there simply was no manpower for ocupation, few roads and most transport was fluvial. When Lopez attacked the brazilians it was at the north of the country not at the east. There was no way to occupy and resupply troops in a such circunnstances. Also there would be no need to pass through argentinian territory if Lopez wanted to conquer the zones on the east.
There is simply no reliable reference to this "Greater Paraguay" thingy. And there is no reasonable way to theorize on such a plan. Lopez was no good militarily but wasn't an complete idiot either.
I could not find a 5th edition, so I can't say the quotations from book are wrong. The 6th edition either remove them or they were never there. Also the author presented this in a paper with little more evidence and in a non neutral poit of view, trying to promote his paper.
I'll wait some weeks and then I'll remove the paragraph and refence to the "Greater Paraguay" issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 ( talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Both are apparently common names and reasonable titles; it's just a matter of deciding between two good alternatives. "War of the Triple Alliance" returns about 164,000 hits on Google Books [14] while "Paraguayan War" returns over 57,000 [15] However, recent sources seem to favor "Paraguayan War" slightly; WOTTA gets 2550 hits on Google Books since 2000; [16] while "Paraguayan War" gets 3190. [17] Additionally, I get 808 hits [18] on Google Scholar for the former, compared to 1,250 for the latter. [19] If anyone wants to move the page again, it needs to go through another move discussion.-- Cúchullain t/ c 20:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Jenks, I think that's very helpful. In response to a comment above I'd like to add that the name of the war in other languages is irrelevant if there's a common name (or names) in English. This appears to be a choice between two solid, demonstrably common alternative names for this subject in English. Cúchullain t/ c 03:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Another problem with "Paraguayan War", which was already noted before, is that other "Paraguayan Wars" actually do exist:
In an attempt to fix the problem, which seems to be one resulting from the search, I used "The Paraguayan War" (a much more exact term than the ambiguous "Paraguayan War"; the ambiguity a problem also relevant to Wikipedia), and that resulted in the following: [24]. Based on that ngram, "War of the Triple Alliance" is more common than "The Paraguayan War".
--- Lecen, your attitude in this discussion (particularly towards WCM) is really getting annoying. Don't take this matter as a personal crusade, so please calm down. Now, regarding the alleged confusion of "Triple Alliances", I know for a fact that in the United States historians prefer the term "War of the Triple Alliance" exactly because "Paraguayan War" can be identified as other wars in which Paraguay has been involved. With this in mind, and given WCM's opinion, your claim that "War of the Triple Alliance" is an ambiguous term is erroneous. Previously, Lecen accused me of having a Peruvian-bias (not sure how that even makes sense in this discussion), but I took the time to find sources which validate my claim that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV name. Here are the results:
I believe this confirms that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV term. Another example to make in this case is comparing how each title (Paraguayan War, War of the Triple Alliance) would fare as disambiguation pages. While "Paraguayan War" would easily serve as a disambiguation page for three conflicts (Independence, WOTTA, and Chaco), "War of the Triple Alliance" would be a poor disambiguation page as no other major conflict in world history has ever been called the "War of the Triple Alliance."-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved, Commonname criteria difficult to apply here as both alternatives are widely used. Paraguayan War is unambiguous while titles with Triple Alliance could be confused with other triple alliances. In doing my own fact finding, page views for this article hovered around ~200-300 per 30 days under the old title War of the Triple Alliance. After the change to Paraguayan War in 09/11, pages view have jumped at least 10X and as high a 20X in some months. Indicates to me that Paraguayan War is serving the reader well. Editors who impune other editors with COI, POV and other such personal affronts weaken their own arguments immensely and should avoid doing do. This dicussion should always be about the merits of the title, not those discussing those merits. Mike Cline ( talk) 21:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
– "War of the Triple Alliance" was the original name of the article. "Paraguayan War" is an ambiguous term that can be confused with other wars which involved Paraguay (Particularly the Paraguayan War of the Independence and the Bolivian-Paraguayan War), and it seems to fit a Brazilian POV on the matter (while not greatly significant, in Spanish and French the conflict is also called "War of the Triple Alliance"). You can read more about this, and the counter-claims, on the discussion above this requested move. MarshalN20 | Talk 15:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Comment Despite the misinformed assertions in the proposal, the term "Paraguayan War" has a long history in English-language scholarship. This may be observed even during the war itself (see Hutchinson, Thomas J. 1868. The Paraná: With Incidents of the Paraguayan War and South American Recollections and many other contemporary accounts). Nor is the term a "Brazilianism"—2 of the most extensive accounts in Spanish (Cárcano, Ramón. 1938-40. Guerra del Paraguay and Efraim Cardozo. 1954. Visperas de la Guerra del Paraguay) designate the conflict as the "Paraguayan War". In recent scholarship, the term "Paraguayan War" is used in repected journals (see Whigham and Potthast. "The Paraguayan Rosetta Stone: New Insights into the Demographics of the Paraguayan War, 1864–1870", Latin American Research Review. Vol. 34. No. 1. 1999.) and in a large body of other published works (see Bethel, Leslie. 1994. The Cambridge History of Latin America; Box, Pelham Horton. 1967. The Origins of the Paraguayan War; Francis, J. Michael. 2006. Iberia and the Americas: Culture, Politics and History; Henderson, James D.; et. al. 2000. A Reference Guide to Latin American History; Hendrik Kraay in Brown, Christopher Leslie; et al. 2006. Arming Slaves: from Classical Times to the Modern Age; Kolinski, Charles. 1965. The Story of the Paraguayan War; Peterson, Harold F. 1964. Argentina and the United States 1810–1960; Whigham, Thomas. 2002. The Paraguayan War: Causes and Early Conduct; among many, many others). The eminent South American historian W.H. Koebel even gave the reasoning for the title: "...South American historians are unanimous in giving the strife which broke out in 1864 the name of the Paraguayan War. This is appropriate enough, for a number of reasons, one of them being that, after the first invading expedition on the part of the Paraguayan armies, the war was fought out on Paraguayan soil." I am appalled at the mischaracterization, disinformation and tactics being used to push this proposal. • Astynax talk 19:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Sure:
I would suggest trying this for yourself and experimenting with different means of searching, what is apparent is that "War of the Triple Alliance" is more common. Nor did I say "Paraguayan War" is POV, it is simply the minority term. I suggest such assertions about POV are clearly wrong. Wee Curry Monster talk 01:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)