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I'm adding a to do template so that editors can see the general direction in which the article is going and we can minimise the surprises. This may calm down the editing wars.
Do other editors think that this will be useful? JASpencer 08:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do we have to follow you? I'll do my own thing thanks. Imacomp 13:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Pope Benedict XVI 'n' WW2. Just how clean can a War Record get? A few facts cited would help. Has he tried to make up for the lack of active service later on, when heading up the "Holy Office"? Imacomp 21:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I have been checking out (primarily at this site) the various papal documents listed as prominently dealing with Freemasonry, and I have a few comments... first, there are one or two which do not seem to be locatable (this could be a fault with the site I am visiting, but I could not locate them through a more general google search either). At least one has not been translated into English, so we have no way of being sure it actually says anything about Freemasonry. If possible, could someone please provide citations for these documents so I can see which ones actually do discuss Freemasonry.
On that note: "Traditi Humilitati" talks about secret societies in general, but does not mention Freemasonry specificly.
Then there are several that do not mention Freemasonry at all:
Unless someone can convince me that these actually do discuss Freemasonry, I will remove them. Blueboar 23:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
JASpencer 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
On a lighter note... check out the Rebecca Brown article ... I guess we fellow satanists had better stop all this in-fighting. :>) Blueboar 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Added Quaesitum est. This is a Roman Catholic Declaration on Masonic Associations. It is especially interesting to note that its prefect is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger better known now as Pope Benedict XVI. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 22:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I have gotten a copy of Humanum Genus that was published by AASR SMJ together with Pike's reply and the Supreme Council's comments in one booklet. I'll add in material about it once I get a chance to read it. MSJapan 02:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not think that this section is disputed amymore. Tag removed. Ok? Imacomp 21:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it time to remove the "Disputed Tag"? Imacomp 21:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Imacomp that the "to do" list at the top of this page should go, as it is not being followed. The same items have been listed for almost a month with no forward movement on them. The point of a "to do" window is to remind people of tasks which need to be done to make the article better. If no one does the tasks, it does not serve its purpose. In this case, it was included by JASpencer as a list of things he wanted to do, but has not done (yet?). Before deleting it, however, I do want to give him a chance to respond. Blueboar 01:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep forgetting to do this every time I get the opportunity, so here it is (BTW, this is note 83 in the article where this is asked for). Also for the citation, the ISBN on the book is 1930097387.
After the oath (which I have elided), it says:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: "Rise and imitate me (He then stabs the skull crowned with a tiara and says:) Down with imposture, down with crime." (260) (This seems to be the "moral" of the degree, and the phrase does appear a few more times.)
A similar thing happens to "a skull wreathed with laurel" and "a skull surmounted with a regal crown" (261)
Later, on 286, there is trampling on a crown said to represent that of "Philip the Fair, King of France", and then here's the papal bit:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: (Passing ovwer to the Tiara.) This represents the Tiara of the cruel and cowardly Pontiff, who sacrificed ot his ambition the illustrious order of those Knights Templars of whome we are the true successors. A crown fo gold and precious stones ill befits the humble head of one who pretends to be successor, the Vicar, of Jesus of Nazareth. It is therefore the crown of an imposter(sic), and it is in the name of him who said "neither be ye called Masters," that we trample it under our feet. TPGM:(To candidate.) Are you disposed to do the same? Candidate: I am. (Thrice Puissant Grand Master then throws the Tiara on the floor and tramples on it, the candidate and all the Knights also trample on it, when all the Knights brandishing their poniards exclaim:) All: Down with imposture! (286)
and that's just about the end of the play. The TPGM has a few sentences and then closes.
MSJapan 21:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
oar|Blueboar]] 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
. Since deHoyos cites it, we can't really leave it out either. I think that as long as sources are clarified, it should be fine. TBH, a lot of the claims are erroneous when put back in their proper context, but in this article we're dealing with existence, not validity. MSJapan 03:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I have restructured the article with a few (hopefully uncontroverial) deletions. I'd like to see how one can reedit the history section so as to provide a history of the 'relationship' between the two groups rather than the POV "hit list" that is there right now.
Also, I don't quite want to delete the Mexico or Risorgimento sections, and would like to see them edited to provide a clearer delineation of why they are important, chiefly that they both represent large frontal assaults on the church establishment and rapid, forced secularization. However, they seem better suited for paragraphs in one section rather than protracted sections themselves. (copied from "to do" list as added by User:Amicuspublilius 02:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC))
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I'm adding a to do template so that editors can see the general direction in which the article is going and we can minimise the surprises. This may calm down the editing wars.
Do other editors think that this will be useful? JASpencer 08:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do we have to follow you? I'll do my own thing thanks. Imacomp 13:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Pope Benedict XVI 'n' WW2. Just how clean can a War Record get? A few facts cited would help. Has he tried to make up for the lack of active service later on, when heading up the "Holy Office"? Imacomp 21:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I have been checking out (primarily at this site) the various papal documents listed as prominently dealing with Freemasonry, and I have a few comments... first, there are one or two which do not seem to be locatable (this could be a fault with the site I am visiting, but I could not locate them through a more general google search either). At least one has not been translated into English, so we have no way of being sure it actually says anything about Freemasonry. If possible, could someone please provide citations for these documents so I can see which ones actually do discuss Freemasonry.
On that note: "Traditi Humilitati" talks about secret societies in general, but does not mention Freemasonry specificly.
Then there are several that do not mention Freemasonry at all:
Unless someone can convince me that these actually do discuss Freemasonry, I will remove them. Blueboar 23:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
JASpencer 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
On a lighter note... check out the Rebecca Brown article ... I guess we fellow satanists had better stop all this in-fighting. :>) Blueboar 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Added Quaesitum est. This is a Roman Catholic Declaration on Masonic Associations. It is especially interesting to note that its prefect is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger better known now as Pope Benedict XVI. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 22:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I have gotten a copy of Humanum Genus that was published by AASR SMJ together with Pike's reply and the Supreme Council's comments in one booklet. I'll add in material about it once I get a chance to read it. MSJapan 02:45, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not think that this section is disputed amymore. Tag removed. Ok? Imacomp 21:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it time to remove the "Disputed Tag"? Imacomp 21:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Imacomp that the "to do" list at the top of this page should go, as it is not being followed. The same items have been listed for almost a month with no forward movement on them. The point of a "to do" window is to remind people of tasks which need to be done to make the article better. If no one does the tasks, it does not serve its purpose. In this case, it was included by JASpencer as a list of things he wanted to do, but has not done (yet?). Before deleting it, however, I do want to give him a chance to respond. Blueboar 01:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep forgetting to do this every time I get the opportunity, so here it is (BTW, this is note 83 in the article where this is asked for). Also for the citation, the ISBN on the book is 1930097387.
After the oath (which I have elided), it says:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: "Rise and imitate me (He then stabs the skull crowned with a tiara and says:) Down with imposture, down with crime." (260) (This seems to be the "moral" of the degree, and the phrase does appear a few more times.)
A similar thing happens to "a skull wreathed with laurel" and "a skull surmounted with a regal crown" (261)
Later, on 286, there is trampling on a crown said to represent that of "Philip the Fair, King of France", and then here's the papal bit:
Thrice Puissant Grand Master: (Passing ovwer to the Tiara.) This represents the Tiara of the cruel and cowardly Pontiff, who sacrificed ot his ambition the illustrious order of those Knights Templars of whome we are the true successors. A crown fo gold and precious stones ill befits the humble head of one who pretends to be successor, the Vicar, of Jesus of Nazareth. It is therefore the crown of an imposter(sic), and it is in the name of him who said "neither be ye called Masters," that we trample it under our feet. TPGM:(To candidate.) Are you disposed to do the same? Candidate: I am. (Thrice Puissant Grand Master then throws the Tiara on the floor and tramples on it, the candidate and all the Knights also trample on it, when all the Knights brandishing their poniards exclaim:) All: Down with imposture! (286)
and that's just about the end of the play. The TPGM has a few sentences and then closes.
MSJapan 21:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
oar|Blueboar]] 01:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
. Since deHoyos cites it, we can't really leave it out either. I think that as long as sources are clarified, it should be fine. TBH, a lot of the claims are erroneous when put back in their proper context, but in this article we're dealing with existence, not validity. MSJapan 03:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I have restructured the article with a few (hopefully uncontroverial) deletions. I'd like to see how one can reedit the history section so as to provide a history of the 'relationship' between the two groups rather than the POV "hit list" that is there right now.
Also, I don't quite want to delete the Mexico or Risorgimento sections, and would like to see them edited to provide a clearer delineation of why they are important, chiefly that they both represent large frontal assaults on the church establishment and rapid, forced secularization. However, they seem better suited for paragraphs in one section rather than protracted sections themselves. (copied from "to do" list as added by User:Amicuspublilius 02:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC))