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User:Ansbachdragoner, I'm happy to see someone interested in writing articles about the German WWII order of battle, but please...
B.Bryant 05:17, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly thankyou and i look forward to contributing more articles on WWI German OOB
1. I agree wikipedia is an english language encyclopedia, however there are many terms which (IMO and by popular convention) should be left in German. To refer to 3rd Panzer as 3rd German Tank Division or Panzer Lehr as German Tank Training Division creates added confusion. I have used german names for army groups, Corps and ranks (General officer ranks, this is necessay as they do not translate into the British / American ranks table). Where possible, I have created a link from the german name to the meaning (See the term 'Jabo' in the Lehr article.
On another note, to refer to PzLehr as Panzer Division Lehr is incorrect. Lehr was not a granted title, like Grossdeutschland or Kurmark, but a description of the status of the formation.
2. Agreed. Will move article from Panzer Lehr Division to German Panzer-Lehr-Division and create a redirect.
3. Apologies for that, but the Lehr article (as with most of my new articles on here) is a work in progress. I had kept your see alsos / refs etc, and now the article is complete these have been posted.
Also, i've noticed that you are the main author of the German OOB titles. I'm planning on entering unit histories (As in GD, BBrg, PzLhr, SSTK etc) on several other divisions, probably beginning with 116.Windhund Panzer. Any suggestions etc will be most appreciated. Best Ansbachdragoner-- Ansbachdragoner 00:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does "Lehr" really mean demonstration? As a native German speaker I have to admit I've never heard it, only as a form of "lehren" (to teach) or the like. -- 84.61.197.40 15:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
is German really needed in the title of the article, German Panzer Lehr Division? was there another Panzer Lehr division from another country, e.g was their a French Panzer Lehr division? if so I've never heard of it. German is an unneeded modifying adjective, as I've always just heard Panzer Lehr.
-- Jadger 23:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The German word is Panzerlehrdivision, no dashes or gaps. Could someone logged in please move the article accordingly. (Though I'm sure that someone will point out that this is the English Wikipedia and different rules apply. Nevermind that it's ridiculously stupid to hack up perfectly correct German words only to match English grammar. Make up your mind, either use the German word or translate it.)
I just finished a game call Company of Heroes, this divison was featured as the main opponent of the game and is the main driving force behind the game's story. The game mainly featued this unit in action during Operation Cobra and also in a smaller extent Battle of Cherbourg and the closing of the Falaise pocket. Should I include this reference under the header Dramatization? Jim101 22:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The text says, "Its great weakness was that it concentrated the cream of Germany's tank commanders/instructors in a single unit thus making it a primary target for destruction in terms of Allied strategy". I don't believe that was the case. It was "targetted" if that's the current phrase, because it was a powerful armored formation, not for this reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antarctica moon ( talk • contribs) 08:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:PanzerGren - PzLehr.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Since this article has no citations I've changed its status to start. Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 12:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi all
I have read through the various discussions above and would like to raise the issue that the article be moved back to ‘Panzer Lehr Division’ as oppose to ‘Panzerlehrdivision’.
I recognise that in German the correct name is ‘Panzerlehrdivision’ however this is the not the term what appears to be most commonly used in the English language, plus this is the English wiki. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) would appear to support this issue and top of which we have not used the German language for other divisions i.e. 1.Panzerdivision when an English alternative is available i.e. 1st Panzer Division.
I have consulted the various sources that I have access to that, and will route through some more later, however the common name in use by English sources is ‘Panzer Lehr Division’.
I consulted 19 sources; the results of which are:
Those calling the division: Panzer-Lehr-Division (4) (in the order I checked):
Hubert Meyer, Kurt Meyer, Daniel Taylor, Ludovic Fortin.
Those calling the division: Panzer Lehr Division (15) (in the order I checked):
Carlo D'Este, Patrick Delaforce, Major Ellis, John Buckley, Colonel Stacey, Simon Trew and Stephen Badsey, Lloyd Clark, Anthony Beevor, Chester Wilmot, Stephen Ashley Hart, Ken Ford, George Forty, Michael Reynolds, Helmut Ritgen.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 13:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I am ready to be bold- with one question remaining: Shall I move it to Panzer-Lehr-Division or Panzer Lehr Division? The first one is the correct German name of the unit and I favor it over the second variant. If there are no objections I plan to move the article to Panzer-Lehr-Division within the next 24 hours. -- noclador ( talk) 13:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not think it made such a big difference if the name is written with 2 "-" or two "spaces". Especially since all the German sources I found stick with the name Panzer-Lehr-Division (which as an "honorific unit name" shouldn't be changed I think). I think we all agree that the original name Panzerlehrdivision was wrong and needed to be changed. Therefore now the question is to choose between Panzer-Lehr-Division- the correct name in German- or the most commonly used name variant in English Panzer Lehr Division; and also if the difference between the two variants is big enough to warrant another move. As for me: I rather go with Panzer-Lehr-Division, as this is the correct name in German. But I really wish to know User:EnigmaMcmxc opinion on this matter as he actually got the debate going and thus was the first to spot the error in the old spelling of the name, -- noclador ( talk) 21:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Note, Panzer-Lehr-Division is neither a honorific nor a name, it's a type (another example would be the ephemeral Grenadier-Lehr-Division). That is to say Lehr was a unique formation without name or number.-- Caranorn ( talk) 17:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, sorry about the wait ive been having a bit of a semi-break. Am not to fussed over which variant is used; Panzer Lehr or Panzer-Lehr as long as it is not the a-historical Panzerlehr. However i do feel that we have to go with the guidelines and the most common English form of the word appears to be Panzer Lehr.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Ranger Steve ( talk) 19:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Panzer-Lehr-Division →
Panzer Lehr Division — As per the reasons above. I imagine this is a fairly uncontroversial move, but as per the instructions at
WP:RM this is the correct way to go about changing it.
Ranger Steve (
talk)
15:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.The operation was not called Wacht Am Rhein. Wacht Am Rhein is a cover name for the build up portion of the operation designed to disguise the purpose of the German build up. The actual name of the execution portion of the offensive was Herbstnebel (roughly translated Autumn Mist).
Re: discussion on German words. Is it Wikipedia's focus to be a 6th grader's research tool? If not, then let the German words stand and provide translation as a courtesy. Serious non-professional, researchers encounter rafts of German words and often encounter exact quotes from the participants in their original deutsch (German). Some of us bother to learn some deutsch. Also, many of those words and phrases (e.g. Blitzkrieg) are not English, yet are common knowledge. Please don't dumb down the article to the lowest common denominator.
Panzerlehrdivision? I've never seen it written this way in my forty some years of interest. Why wasn't this suggestion ignored out of hand and so much time spent documenting the obvious? If I change the word, THE to TEH in an edit. Does everyone then have to go consult fifty different dictionaries to change it back?
Papa greystoke ( talk) 01:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
In a few minutes of research I could not find any reference other than the English and German Wikipedia articles on the Panzer Lehr Division themselves that mentions Graf Strachwitz ever having commanded Panzer Lehr. Neither of the articles on Strachwitz or Bayerlein make any mention of Bayerlein having relinquished his command on 7 or 8 June 1944 (a day after D-day!). Samuel W. Mitcham, "The Panzer Legions: A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War II" has Bayerlein commanding from 10 Feb 1944 to 5 Jan 1945, with Gerhardt and von Hauser as Acting Commanders from 23 Aug to 8 Sep (supposedly even Knight's Cross holders needed a break every now and then!). Mitcham hedges his account with the weasel words "Commanders included ...", but seems in line with any other source I could find on the German and English speaking web,
I am not going to edit the main article, but could someone please look into this.
81.179.10.85 ( talk) 11:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Panzer Lehr Division. Please take a moment to review
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Panzer Lehr Division article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
User:Ansbachdragoner, I'm happy to see someone interested in writing articles about the German WWII order of battle, but please...
B.Bryant 05:17, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly thankyou and i look forward to contributing more articles on WWI German OOB
1. I agree wikipedia is an english language encyclopedia, however there are many terms which (IMO and by popular convention) should be left in German. To refer to 3rd Panzer as 3rd German Tank Division or Panzer Lehr as German Tank Training Division creates added confusion. I have used german names for army groups, Corps and ranks (General officer ranks, this is necessay as they do not translate into the British / American ranks table). Where possible, I have created a link from the german name to the meaning (See the term 'Jabo' in the Lehr article.
On another note, to refer to PzLehr as Panzer Division Lehr is incorrect. Lehr was not a granted title, like Grossdeutschland or Kurmark, but a description of the status of the formation.
2. Agreed. Will move article from Panzer Lehr Division to German Panzer-Lehr-Division and create a redirect.
3. Apologies for that, but the Lehr article (as with most of my new articles on here) is a work in progress. I had kept your see alsos / refs etc, and now the article is complete these have been posted.
Also, i've noticed that you are the main author of the German OOB titles. I'm planning on entering unit histories (As in GD, BBrg, PzLhr, SSTK etc) on several other divisions, probably beginning with 116.Windhund Panzer. Any suggestions etc will be most appreciated. Best Ansbachdragoner-- Ansbachdragoner 00:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does "Lehr" really mean demonstration? As a native German speaker I have to admit I've never heard it, only as a form of "lehren" (to teach) or the like. -- 84.61.197.40 15:42, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
is German really needed in the title of the article, German Panzer Lehr Division? was there another Panzer Lehr division from another country, e.g was their a French Panzer Lehr division? if so I've never heard of it. German is an unneeded modifying adjective, as I've always just heard Panzer Lehr.
-- Jadger 23:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The German word is Panzerlehrdivision, no dashes or gaps. Could someone logged in please move the article accordingly. (Though I'm sure that someone will point out that this is the English Wikipedia and different rules apply. Nevermind that it's ridiculously stupid to hack up perfectly correct German words only to match English grammar. Make up your mind, either use the German word or translate it.)
I just finished a game call Company of Heroes, this divison was featured as the main opponent of the game and is the main driving force behind the game's story. The game mainly featued this unit in action during Operation Cobra and also in a smaller extent Battle of Cherbourg and the closing of the Falaise pocket. Should I include this reference under the header Dramatization? Jim101 22:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The text says, "Its great weakness was that it concentrated the cream of Germany's tank commanders/instructors in a single unit thus making it a primary target for destruction in terms of Allied strategy". I don't believe that was the case. It was "targetted" if that's the current phrase, because it was a powerful armored formation, not for this reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antarctica moon ( talk • contribs) 08:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:PanzerGren - PzLehr.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 14:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Since this article has no citations I've changed its status to start. Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 12:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi all
I have read through the various discussions above and would like to raise the issue that the article be moved back to ‘Panzer Lehr Division’ as oppose to ‘Panzerlehrdivision’.
I recognise that in German the correct name is ‘Panzerlehrdivision’ however this is the not the term what appears to be most commonly used in the English language, plus this is the English wiki. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) would appear to support this issue and top of which we have not used the German language for other divisions i.e. 1.Panzerdivision when an English alternative is available i.e. 1st Panzer Division.
I have consulted the various sources that I have access to that, and will route through some more later, however the common name in use by English sources is ‘Panzer Lehr Division’.
I consulted 19 sources; the results of which are:
Those calling the division: Panzer-Lehr-Division (4) (in the order I checked):
Hubert Meyer, Kurt Meyer, Daniel Taylor, Ludovic Fortin.
Those calling the division: Panzer Lehr Division (15) (in the order I checked):
Carlo D'Este, Patrick Delaforce, Major Ellis, John Buckley, Colonel Stacey, Simon Trew and Stephen Badsey, Lloyd Clark, Anthony Beevor, Chester Wilmot, Stephen Ashley Hart, Ken Ford, George Forty, Michael Reynolds, Helmut Ritgen.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 13:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I am ready to be bold- with one question remaining: Shall I move it to Panzer-Lehr-Division or Panzer Lehr Division? The first one is the correct German name of the unit and I favor it over the second variant. If there are no objections I plan to move the article to Panzer-Lehr-Division within the next 24 hours. -- noclador ( talk) 13:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not think it made such a big difference if the name is written with 2 "-" or two "spaces". Especially since all the German sources I found stick with the name Panzer-Lehr-Division (which as an "honorific unit name" shouldn't be changed I think). I think we all agree that the original name Panzerlehrdivision was wrong and needed to be changed. Therefore now the question is to choose between Panzer-Lehr-Division- the correct name in German- or the most commonly used name variant in English Panzer Lehr Division; and also if the difference between the two variants is big enough to warrant another move. As for me: I rather go with Panzer-Lehr-Division, as this is the correct name in German. But I really wish to know User:EnigmaMcmxc opinion on this matter as he actually got the debate going and thus was the first to spot the error in the old spelling of the name, -- noclador ( talk) 21:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Note, Panzer-Lehr-Division is neither a honorific nor a name, it's a type (another example would be the ephemeral Grenadier-Lehr-Division). That is to say Lehr was a unique formation without name or number.-- Caranorn ( talk) 17:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, sorry about the wait ive been having a bit of a semi-break. Am not to fussed over which variant is used; Panzer Lehr or Panzer-Lehr as long as it is not the a-historical Panzerlehr. However i do feel that we have to go with the guidelines and the most common English form of the word appears to be Panzer Lehr.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Ranger Steve ( talk) 19:52, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Panzer-Lehr-Division →
Panzer Lehr Division — As per the reasons above. I imagine this is a fairly uncontroversial move, but as per the instructions at
WP:RM this is the correct way to go about changing it.
Ranger Steve (
talk)
15:39, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.The operation was not called Wacht Am Rhein. Wacht Am Rhein is a cover name for the build up portion of the operation designed to disguise the purpose of the German build up. The actual name of the execution portion of the offensive was Herbstnebel (roughly translated Autumn Mist).
Re: discussion on German words. Is it Wikipedia's focus to be a 6th grader's research tool? If not, then let the German words stand and provide translation as a courtesy. Serious non-professional, researchers encounter rafts of German words and often encounter exact quotes from the participants in their original deutsch (German). Some of us bother to learn some deutsch. Also, many of those words and phrases (e.g. Blitzkrieg) are not English, yet are common knowledge. Please don't dumb down the article to the lowest common denominator.
Panzerlehrdivision? I've never seen it written this way in my forty some years of interest. Why wasn't this suggestion ignored out of hand and so much time spent documenting the obvious? If I change the word, THE to TEH in an edit. Does everyone then have to go consult fifty different dictionaries to change it back?
Papa greystoke ( talk) 01:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
In a few minutes of research I could not find any reference other than the English and German Wikipedia articles on the Panzer Lehr Division themselves that mentions Graf Strachwitz ever having commanded Panzer Lehr. Neither of the articles on Strachwitz or Bayerlein make any mention of Bayerlein having relinquished his command on 7 or 8 June 1944 (a day after D-day!). Samuel W. Mitcham, "The Panzer Legions: A Guide to the German Army Tank Divisions of World War II" has Bayerlein commanding from 10 Feb 1944 to 5 Jan 1945, with Gerhardt and von Hauser as Acting Commanders from 23 Aug to 8 Sep (supposedly even Knight's Cross holders needed a break every now and then!). Mitcham hedges his account with the weasel words "Commanders included ...", but seems in line with any other source I could find on the German and English speaking web,
I am not going to edit the main article, but could someone please look into this.
81.179.10.85 ( talk) 11:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Panzer Lehr Division. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)