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Archive 1 |
I believe it would be a good idea to add a "How to make" section to the pae, for those who want to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunatic Pandora ( talk • contribs)
I think the IPA should be different for the first syllable: pa-ni-no sounds like pu(nk)-nee(dle)-no(vel). -- Cantalamessa 10:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no such word as 'pronounciation'. The word is 'pronunciation'.
86.139.152.219 ( talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!
I am a bit unhappy about the low-level edit war which has been going on around this question. I am sure that we can all agree that in Italian the singular is Panino and the plural is Panini. But I am not at all happy about describing the English language usage of Panini as a singular noun as ‘incorrect‘. Panini is singular in the English language, just as Spaghetti is singular (or uncountable). If I tell someone that ‘the spaghetti are ready’ I am either teasing them—hey you should learn Italian!—or forgetful. It’s not something you say in English. Basically this kind of Puritan (or Catholic) prescriptivism died out out with the first edition of the OED, And if you want to go into an English sandwich bar and ask for a toasted sandwich, you had better ask for ‘a panini’. Thoughts? — Ian Spackman 15:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This reminds me of
zucchini. It's far to late to fix that one, but there's still hope for the panino.
Tangerine Cossack (
talk)
07:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
How ridiculous; I (sadly) know so many people that spell "you" as "u" and even more that don't know how to choose between "to" and "too", or all the other common mistakes. Just because a mistake is frequently used doesn't make it become valid, it is not an accepted replacement. nice too no that sum of u choose rules 4 ur convenience 90.208.0.94 ( talk) 18:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
This is a dumb debate. Regardless of the degree of its incorrect usage in English, it is still, in fact, incorrect to describe a single sandwich as a "panini". Are we going to change "corned beef" to "corn beef" because an increasing number of morons are using that erroneous terminology? This is an encyclopaedia ... as such, it should be CORRECT. All one does by pandering to the idiots is to bring the rest of the world down to their level. Shouldn't Wikipedia's goal be to help eradicate ignorance, rather than validate it? 205.251.185.202 ( talk) 14:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
I live in Holland, where the same problem has arisen (so it isn't just English- and French-speaking countries, as the article implies). No-one here (except people who have just started Italian lessons!) refers to a "panino" in the singular, and Dutch serving staff look blank (or actually "correct" you) if you ask for one. People also say "panini's" in the plural, even though (as in English, but not in French with its "les spaghettis sont...") they don't make a false plural of "spaghetti", "tagliatelle" and so on - these are treated as a non-countable mass, like milk or sugar (so the earlier comment about "spaghetti" now being used as a plural doesn't hold water - we say "I think this spaghetti is ready", not "I think these spaghetti are ready", so if anything it's used as a singular, with no plural form). But panini(s) are countable, so a plural is needed. I occasionally tell Dutch people that asking for "een panini" ("a panini") sounds as silly as asking for a "een broodjes" (the plural of "broodje" = "bread roll'). That briefly stops them in their tracks, especially in a country whose people pride themselves (admittedly with decreasing justification) on "knowing their languages", and where foreigners who speak broken Dutch (and no English) are the subject of much ridicule. Dutch-speakers wouldn't want to be caught saying something that sounds like "een broodjes", even in another language! But I still don't expect them to start saying "een panino" (any more than English-speakers are likely to stop using the mangled French expression "double entendre"). The things are quite simply known as "panini's" (the apostrophe is correct in Dutch), singular "panini". I do think Wikipedia, being an encyclopaedia, should draw attention to the error (and add a Dutch version of the article, which is currently missing - if I were a native Dutch-speaker I'd give it a try), just as the Dutch Wikipedia points out Dutch-speakers' misuse of "high tea" to mean what is called "afternoon tea" in English ("there is a widespread misconception, particularly in Holland and Germany, that 'high tea' is a posh afternoon ritual"). But I also feel it should record actual usage, rather than try - surely in vain - to make people change their linguistic habits. Are we to insist that English-speakers stop saying and writing "the macaroni is ready, so let's eat it", just because it's called "maccheroni" and used with a plural pronoun and verb in Italian? See also the English and Italian Wikipedia articles on macaroni/maccheroni. Perhaps it's just that "panini(s)" are a relatively new concept in English and Dutch. In another ten years' time I reckon "a/een panino" and "two/twee panini" may sound and look as weird as "the maccheroni are ready, so let's eat them" does now - if they don't already. Take "salami", which is plural in Italian - but surely no-one would now write the "correct" singular form "salame" in English. And to me the clincher is that an English or Dutch "panini" isn't even the same thing as an Italian "panino", which means a bread roll in general. For what it's worth, I say all this as a professional translator. 188.203.49.105 ( talk) 16:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I would argue there's no reason to keep "panino" everywhere in this article, and instead to change most uses to "panini". "A panini" is proper form in English. For evidence, one can visit The Oxford English Dictionary and Google Ngrams. It is clear that, in English, "panino" is quite uncommon, and "panini" is preferred. From the OED: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." The consensus is clear. Panini is correct for the singular form without a doubt, and, depending on the usage, panini or paninis may be used for the plural form. Kupiakos ( talk) 06:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
This issue has recently resurfaced with bold edits by Py0alb. I am not arguing one way or the other, but trying to maintain the status quo in the absence of a consensus in the above discussion. I have started an RfC below to establish consensus. Ibadibam ( talk) 21:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
My understanding is that Wikipedia does not allow original research. It appears, however, that the decision to move this article to "Panini (sandwich)" was made largely on the basis of original research ("my local restaurant," "in my experience," and on the other hand, "in the Toronto area," etc.) as well as personal opinion.
I believe that most English-language dictionaries these days reject prescriptivism and make their decisions on the basis of empirical research into how English-speakers actually use words. So what do the dictionaries -- the most reputable source -- say about this issue? So far, I see dictionary.com saying "panini" is the "usual" usage, while m-w.com goes with "panino."
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Done - consensus below for a move to
Panini (sandwich).
Neıl
☎
15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I requested the article be moved because the word "Panino" is not part of the English language whereas "Panini" is a perfectly good loanword from Italian. Please contribute your opinion. Petecarney 11:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
2008 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 07:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
}}
I believe this statement should be removed: "In the United States, panini are typically "gussied up grilled cheese"; they are nearly always grilled or toasted and invariably contain cheese." The source isn't credible, it's just 1 person's opinion. Likewise, the statement "invariably contain cheese" is both factually incorrect AND unprovable.
I already deleted that little section, but I reverted the edit because it broke the link to the (admittedly weak) source article. I haven't made many edits to wikipedia so I'm not sure how to edit out that line but keep the source. As an aside, the picture on the source shows a panini without cheese, in direct contradiction of the statement that should be removed.
So, cut one, cut both, either is fine with me. Can someone that's more proficient than little ol' me make this change? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.119.20 ( talk) 17:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I believe it would be a good idea to add a "How to make" section to the pae, for those who want to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lunatic Pandora ( talk • contribs)
I think the IPA should be different for the first syllable: pa-ni-no sounds like pu(nk)-nee(dle)-no(vel). -- Cantalamessa 10:23, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no such word as 'pronounciation'. The word is 'pronunciation'.
86.139.152.219 ( talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
We need a proper picture of a panini sandwich!
I am a bit unhappy about the low-level edit war which has been going on around this question. I am sure that we can all agree that in Italian the singular is Panino and the plural is Panini. But I am not at all happy about describing the English language usage of Panini as a singular noun as ‘incorrect‘. Panini is singular in the English language, just as Spaghetti is singular (or uncountable). If I tell someone that ‘the spaghetti are ready’ I am either teasing them—hey you should learn Italian!—or forgetful. It’s not something you say in English. Basically this kind of Puritan (or Catholic) prescriptivism died out out with the first edition of the OED, And if you want to go into an English sandwich bar and ask for a toasted sandwich, you had better ask for ‘a panini’. Thoughts? — Ian Spackman 15:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This reminds me of
zucchini. It's far to late to fix that one, but there's still hope for the panino.
Tangerine Cossack (
talk)
07:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
How ridiculous; I (sadly) know so many people that spell "you" as "u" and even more that don't know how to choose between "to" and "too", or all the other common mistakes. Just because a mistake is frequently used doesn't make it become valid, it is not an accepted replacement. nice too no that sum of u choose rules 4 ur convenience 90.208.0.94 ( talk) 18:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
This is a dumb debate. Regardless of the degree of its incorrect usage in English, it is still, in fact, incorrect to describe a single sandwich as a "panini". Are we going to change "corned beef" to "corn beef" because an increasing number of morons are using that erroneous terminology? This is an encyclopaedia ... as such, it should be CORRECT. All one does by pandering to the idiots is to bring the rest of the world down to their level. Shouldn't Wikipedia's goal be to help eradicate ignorance, rather than validate it? 205.251.185.202 ( talk) 14:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
I live in Holland, where the same problem has arisen (so it isn't just English- and French-speaking countries, as the article implies). No-one here (except people who have just started Italian lessons!) refers to a "panino" in the singular, and Dutch serving staff look blank (or actually "correct" you) if you ask for one. People also say "panini's" in the plural, even though (as in English, but not in French with its "les spaghettis sont...") they don't make a false plural of "spaghetti", "tagliatelle" and so on - these are treated as a non-countable mass, like milk or sugar (so the earlier comment about "spaghetti" now being used as a plural doesn't hold water - we say "I think this spaghetti is ready", not "I think these spaghetti are ready", so if anything it's used as a singular, with no plural form). But panini(s) are countable, so a plural is needed. I occasionally tell Dutch people that asking for "een panini" ("a panini") sounds as silly as asking for a "een broodjes" (the plural of "broodje" = "bread roll'). That briefly stops them in their tracks, especially in a country whose people pride themselves (admittedly with decreasing justification) on "knowing their languages", and where foreigners who speak broken Dutch (and no English) are the subject of much ridicule. Dutch-speakers wouldn't want to be caught saying something that sounds like "een broodjes", even in another language! But I still don't expect them to start saying "een panino" (any more than English-speakers are likely to stop using the mangled French expression "double entendre"). The things are quite simply known as "panini's" (the apostrophe is correct in Dutch), singular "panini". I do think Wikipedia, being an encyclopaedia, should draw attention to the error (and add a Dutch version of the article, which is currently missing - if I were a native Dutch-speaker I'd give it a try), just as the Dutch Wikipedia points out Dutch-speakers' misuse of "high tea" to mean what is called "afternoon tea" in English ("there is a widespread misconception, particularly in Holland and Germany, that 'high tea' is a posh afternoon ritual"). But I also feel it should record actual usage, rather than try - surely in vain - to make people change their linguistic habits. Are we to insist that English-speakers stop saying and writing "the macaroni is ready, so let's eat it", just because it's called "maccheroni" and used with a plural pronoun and verb in Italian? See also the English and Italian Wikipedia articles on macaroni/maccheroni. Perhaps it's just that "panini(s)" are a relatively new concept in English and Dutch. In another ten years' time I reckon "a/een panino" and "two/twee panini" may sound and look as weird as "the maccheroni are ready, so let's eat them" does now - if they don't already. Take "salami", which is plural in Italian - but surely no-one would now write the "correct" singular form "salame" in English. And to me the clincher is that an English or Dutch "panini" isn't even the same thing as an Italian "panino", which means a bread roll in general. For what it's worth, I say all this as a professional translator. 188.203.49.105 ( talk) 16:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I would argue there's no reason to keep "panino" everywhere in this article, and instead to change most uses to "panini". "A panini" is proper form in English. For evidence, one can visit The Oxford English Dictionary and Google Ngrams. It is clear that, in English, "panino" is quite uncommon, and "panini" is preferred. From the OED: "The Italian plural form panini began to be interpreted as singular in English use in the late 20th cent. (compare quot. 1985); this was soon followed by the appearance of the English plural form paninis." The consensus is clear. Panini is correct for the singular form without a doubt, and, depending on the usage, panini or paninis may be used for the plural form. Kupiakos ( talk) 06:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
This issue has recently resurfaced with bold edits by Py0alb. I am not arguing one way or the other, but trying to maintain the status quo in the absence of a consensus in the above discussion. I have started an RfC below to establish consensus. Ibadibam ( talk) 21:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
My understanding is that Wikipedia does not allow original research. It appears, however, that the decision to move this article to "Panini (sandwich)" was made largely on the basis of original research ("my local restaurant," "in my experience," and on the other hand, "in the Toronto area," etc.) as well as personal opinion.
I believe that most English-language dictionaries these days reject prescriptivism and make their decisions on the basis of empirical research into how English-speakers actually use words. So what do the dictionaries -- the most reputable source -- say about this issue? So far, I see dictionary.com saying "panini" is the "usual" usage, while m-w.com goes with "panino."
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Done - consensus below for a move to
Panini (sandwich).
Neıl
☎
15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I requested the article be moved because the word "Panino" is not part of the English language whereas "Panini" is a perfectly good loanword from Italian. Please contribute your opinion. Petecarney 11:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
2008 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 07:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
}}
I believe this statement should be removed: "In the United States, panini are typically "gussied up grilled cheese"; they are nearly always grilled or toasted and invariably contain cheese." The source isn't credible, it's just 1 person's opinion. Likewise, the statement "invariably contain cheese" is both factually incorrect AND unprovable.
I already deleted that little section, but I reverted the edit because it broke the link to the (admittedly weak) source article. I haven't made many edits to wikipedia so I'm not sure how to edit out that line but keep the source. As an aside, the picture on the source shows a panini without cheese, in direct contradiction of the statement that should be removed.
So, cut one, cut both, either is fine with me. Can someone that's more proficient than little ol' me make this change? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.175.119.20 ( talk) 17:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)