This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Response to third opinion request: |
Hello, hello, hello. First: It is not really clear that Panasonic is truly a sponsor of this possibly-infamous camp. The reference, as translated by Google, seems a bit sketchy. Without better evidence of this currently viable company sponsoring a program that would be considered unpalatable for the vast majority of Panasonic consumers, the libel issue is certainly a consideration. More evidence is necessary to consider the statement valid. Second: even if valid, this seems to be more of a politically motivated inclusion to shame or pressure the company, not an attempt to encyclopedically present information that fits in with the other sponsorships in this article or in the sponsorship sections of other articles like this one. This second point would absolutely make inclusion in this section inappropriate in my opinion. Perhaps a compromise...once sponsorship has been fairly well demonstrated, then a separate section mentioning the controversy and both sides' arguments could be placed? That certainly is a bit much for a minor sponsorship, but if the claim has good evidence it is then at least allowable to include it...— Hiobazard ( talk) 20:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC) |
A paragraph describing sponsorship of an infamous pro-government youth camp in Russia was recently deleted. The paragraph had several supporting sources listed (Russian mass media), which, in turn, referred to the information from the camp organizers. I found an English language statement of the organizers confirming Panasonic's sponsorship (
http://www.forumseliger.ru/news/article/542). Unless you can show that the statement by the Russian government is a lie, please don't delete the paragraph. Unjustified attempts to suppress this information do not look good, and will be referred for arbitration.--
EugeneK (
talk) 03:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
'You call them "youth propaganda camps", implying they are like the NAZI Hitler Youth program, yet the article you have provided suggests nothing of the sort. If you want to keep this information, you need secondary sources, like a news article that verify your claims. If your claim is verifiable, I will leave it up. But right now, it violates a huge number of wikipedia policies, and I am entitled to delete it, even without arbitration. TruthInfects ( talk) 14:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
First, your rant about using non-English language sources sounds ludicrous for the page, which is extensively sourced by references in Japanese. The source of the Russian language information is Rambler Media, which is a major and reputable Russian media company ( http://www.profmedia.ru/eng/actives/list/1226/). There are no rules that prohibit referring to freely available foreign-language sources.
Second, the very fact of sponsorship is confirmed by an English-language announcement on the Russian government web site, which is mentioned above. Thus, there is definitely enough information to meet the notoriety criteria for Panasonic's sponsorship. Just in case you have honest doubts about the camp, here is another English-language news article, which mentions it: http://www.times.spb.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=34266. There is enough info there to realize that the camp is viewed as propagandist and, to say the least, controversial. In fact, in Russia, the main group that organizes the camp ("Nashi") is colloquially referred to as "Putler Jugend", so your guess at "Hitler Jugend" was not far off. I believe that description of their activities, including defaming, intimidating and, allegedly, physically attacking opponents of the Putin's regime, is beyond the scope of the Panasonic page. Also, there is nothing that violates NPOV policy, since the original text simply mentions the objective goals of the camp and some specific activities, which are offered to the participants. If you are interested in the names of the courses being offered, here is an example:«Что, если не предательство? Лица оппозиции в современной России» (What is this but treason? The faces of political opposition in modern Russia"). However, if you act in good faith, I agree to work with you on wording that may be more acceptable to you, but without compromising the factual content.
Third, I would like to remind you that while the rules about the ban on foreign language sources are made-up, determined and deliberate attempts to hide accurate, but potentially unflattering, information about a company, indeed, violates the rules. Personally, I don't think Panasonic's reputation would be better off if the persistent attempts to silence this information would leak to the media.-- EugeneK ( talk) 04:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is a link to an archived British article about this camp and the youth organization: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4375035.ece. -- EugeneK ( talk) 05:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC) ... and one from the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2010/08/seliger.html-- EugeneK ( talk) 05:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
TruthInfects ( talk) 07:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I concur with the request for a third opinion, and would like to note the following:
The picture had been titled "Headquarter of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. in Kadoma, Osaka, Japan", which is not correct. The building hosts several corporate R&D labs and product development divisions.
Thus I've changed the title and also added a note about the Matsushita Electric House of History that we can see on the left.
JV (Panasonic member), 12:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Panasonic and National are well-known brands. Panasonic actually has more hits than Matsushita. Looking at the GE article for example, its subsidiaries have their own articles as well. As such I feel a merge is not necessary, except perhaps Panasonic Corporation of North America which may be merged into Panasonic. Shawnc 23:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The article claims that "The correct English as well as Japanese pronunciation for the company is Mahtsu-sheeta." The only time I've heard it pronounced is by Michael Ovitz in the documentary "The Last Mogul"; he said "mat-soosh'-da". The Linux CD-ROM HOWTO says "I'm told that the correct pronunciation it something like MAT-SOOSH-TA." 1. Neither source is especially authoritative, but what is the source for the current version in the article? Jaufrec 04:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
U's & Is following certain vowels in certain places aren't pronounced. It is indeed Ma-Tsu-Shta, no Ew emphasis on the U in Tsu, but rather a soft Uh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.193 ( talk) 05:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The article now appears to have the correct (Japanese) pronounciation, but I'm curious as to what it means to have a "correct English pronounciation" - does this mean that after a while of mispronouncing the correct Japanese pronounciation something becomes the correct English pronounciation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.0.57.171 ( talk • contribs) 10:49, May 30, 2006 (UTC)
Shita is a funny word —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
194.72.54.162 (
talk) 16:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
& it's only one syllable. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.161.122.193 (
talk) 05:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Matsushita is pronounced with 3 syllables: Mah-tsu-shta. Please note that the t goes with the second syllable and that the i is almost completely silent. 74.190.95.250 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC).
Does anyone have a picture of the logo? It looks like a hollow triangle with three smaller, filled triangles, one on each point.
Stovetopcookies 04:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The name change was approved at a shareholders' meeting of June 26, 2008. iht.com, Shareholders of Matsushita approve company name change to Panasonic-- Florentino floro ( talk) 10:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Panasonic Co. → Panasonic — The abbreviation " Co." usually stands for "company" (not "corporation"). Perhaps, it would be better to rename this article to "Panasonic" "Panasonic Corporation" or "Panasonic Corp." — Krtek2125 ( talk) 02:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Strong disagee' to the Panasonic being redirected to "Panasonic Co." That is just stupid. Why would you want to have co in there. panasonic is short and simple there are no other panasonics out there? 71.237.70.49 ( talk) 07:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
In connection with Panasonic's entry to the US market and the use of the 'National' brand it is stated that 'The trademark could not be used probably due to discriminatory application of trademark laws where brands like General Motors were registrable'.
Is it not more likely that Panasonic were not legally able to use National because of the existence of the US National Radio Company who were already using the brand in a similar market area? Hughdel ( talk) 15:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Response to third opinion request: |
Hello, hello, hello. First: It is not really clear that Panasonic is truly a sponsor of this possibly-infamous camp. The reference, as translated by Google, seems a bit sketchy. Without better evidence of this currently viable company sponsoring a program that would be considered unpalatable for the vast majority of Panasonic consumers, the libel issue is certainly a consideration. More evidence is necessary to consider the statement valid. Second: even if valid, this seems to be more of a politically motivated inclusion to shame or pressure the company, not an attempt to encyclopedically present information that fits in with the other sponsorships in this article or in the sponsorship sections of other articles like this one. This second point would absolutely make inclusion in this section inappropriate in my opinion. Perhaps a compromise...once sponsorship has been fairly well demonstrated, then a separate section mentioning the controversy and both sides' arguments could be placed? That certainly is a bit much for a minor sponsorship, but if the claim has good evidence it is then at least allowable to include it...— Hiobazard ( talk) 20:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC) |
A paragraph describing sponsorship of an infamous pro-government youth camp in Russia was recently deleted. The paragraph had several supporting sources listed (Russian mass media), which, in turn, referred to the information from the camp organizers. I found an English language statement of the organizers confirming Panasonic's sponsorship (
http://www.forumseliger.ru/news/article/542). Unless you can show that the statement by the Russian government is a lie, please don't delete the paragraph. Unjustified attempts to suppress this information do not look good, and will be referred for arbitration.--
EugeneK (
talk) 03:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
'You call them "youth propaganda camps", implying they are like the NAZI Hitler Youth program, yet the article you have provided suggests nothing of the sort. If you want to keep this information, you need secondary sources, like a news article that verify your claims. If your claim is verifiable, I will leave it up. But right now, it violates a huge number of wikipedia policies, and I am entitled to delete it, even without arbitration. TruthInfects ( talk) 14:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
First, your rant about using non-English language sources sounds ludicrous for the page, which is extensively sourced by references in Japanese. The source of the Russian language information is Rambler Media, which is a major and reputable Russian media company ( http://www.profmedia.ru/eng/actives/list/1226/). There are no rules that prohibit referring to freely available foreign-language sources.
Second, the very fact of sponsorship is confirmed by an English-language announcement on the Russian government web site, which is mentioned above. Thus, there is definitely enough information to meet the notoriety criteria for Panasonic's sponsorship. Just in case you have honest doubts about the camp, here is another English-language news article, which mentions it: http://www.times.spb.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=34266. There is enough info there to realize that the camp is viewed as propagandist and, to say the least, controversial. In fact, in Russia, the main group that organizes the camp ("Nashi") is colloquially referred to as "Putler Jugend", so your guess at "Hitler Jugend" was not far off. I believe that description of their activities, including defaming, intimidating and, allegedly, physically attacking opponents of the Putin's regime, is beyond the scope of the Panasonic page. Also, there is nothing that violates NPOV policy, since the original text simply mentions the objective goals of the camp and some specific activities, which are offered to the participants. If you are interested in the names of the courses being offered, here is an example:«Что, если не предательство? Лица оппозиции в современной России» (What is this but treason? The faces of political opposition in modern Russia"). However, if you act in good faith, I agree to work with you on wording that may be more acceptable to you, but without compromising the factual content.
Third, I would like to remind you that while the rules about the ban on foreign language sources are made-up, determined and deliberate attempts to hide accurate, but potentially unflattering, information about a company, indeed, violates the rules. Personally, I don't think Panasonic's reputation would be better off if the persistent attempts to silence this information would leak to the media.-- EugeneK ( talk) 04:39, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is a link to an archived British article about this camp and the youth organization: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4375035.ece. -- EugeneK ( talk) 05:04, 7 July 2011 (UTC) ... and one from the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2010/08/seliger.html-- EugeneK ( talk) 05:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
TruthInfects ( talk) 07:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I concur with the request for a third opinion, and would like to note the following:
The picture had been titled "Headquarter of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. in Kadoma, Osaka, Japan", which is not correct. The building hosts several corporate R&D labs and product development divisions.
Thus I've changed the title and also added a note about the Matsushita Electric House of History that we can see on the left.
JV (Panasonic member), 12:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Panasonic and National are well-known brands. Panasonic actually has more hits than Matsushita. Looking at the GE article for example, its subsidiaries have their own articles as well. As such I feel a merge is not necessary, except perhaps Panasonic Corporation of North America which may be merged into Panasonic. Shawnc 23:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The article claims that "The correct English as well as Japanese pronunciation for the company is Mahtsu-sheeta." The only time I've heard it pronounced is by Michael Ovitz in the documentary "The Last Mogul"; he said "mat-soosh'-da". The Linux CD-ROM HOWTO says "I'm told that the correct pronunciation it something like MAT-SOOSH-TA." 1. Neither source is especially authoritative, but what is the source for the current version in the article? Jaufrec 04:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
U's & Is following certain vowels in certain places aren't pronounced. It is indeed Ma-Tsu-Shta, no Ew emphasis on the U in Tsu, but rather a soft Uh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.122.193 ( talk) 05:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The article now appears to have the correct (Japanese) pronounciation, but I'm curious as to what it means to have a "correct English pronounciation" - does this mean that after a while of mispronouncing the correct Japanese pronounciation something becomes the correct English pronounciation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.0.57.171 ( talk • contribs) 10:49, May 30, 2006 (UTC)
Shita is a funny word —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
194.72.54.162 (
talk) 16:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
& it's only one syllable. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.161.122.193 (
talk) 05:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Matsushita is pronounced with 3 syllables: Mah-tsu-shta. Please note that the t goes with the second syllable and that the i is almost completely silent. 74.190.95.250 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC).
Does anyone have a picture of the logo? It looks like a hollow triangle with three smaller, filled triangles, one on each point.
Stovetopcookies 04:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The name change was approved at a shareholders' meeting of June 26, 2008. iht.com, Shareholders of Matsushita approve company name change to Panasonic-- Florentino floro ( talk) 10:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Panasonic Co. → Panasonic — The abbreviation " Co." usually stands for "company" (not "corporation"). Perhaps, it would be better to rename this article to "Panasonic" "Panasonic Corporation" or "Panasonic Corp." — Krtek2125 ( talk) 02:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.Strong disagee' to the Panasonic being redirected to "Panasonic Co." That is just stupid. Why would you want to have co in there. panasonic is short and simple there are no other panasonics out there? 71.237.70.49 ( talk) 07:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
In connection with Panasonic's entry to the US market and the use of the 'National' brand it is stated that 'The trademark could not be used probably due to discriminatory application of trademark laws where brands like General Motors were registrable'.
Is it not more likely that Panasonic were not legally able to use National because of the existence of the US National Radio Company who were already using the brand in a similar market area? Hughdel ( talk) 15:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)