This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
An anonymous user added considerable material to the Rambot article. Much of the addition was plagiarized from the copyrighted website of the Palmdale Main Library (for example, the History section at http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/part2.shtml). Some other things were just silly, like the statement that Palmdale, with a current population of 135,515, "is expected to become the second largest city (Los Angeles-1st) in California and 3rd largest in the United States within the next couple decades." There may be a little bit of wheat in with all this chaff, but I can't sort it out and so have reverted the whole thing. JamesMLane 16:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The information previously given is true and correct.
The information posted in the history section was from the city public library and is available for public use. The city does not copyright facts about it's history as long as they are not altered to reflect inaccuracies. As a matter of fact, the city wants accurate information available about itself abroad due to the poor, biased, inaccurate implications given to it by the entertainment media and others. Therefore, it is not plagiarism. I am a journalist and I know the definition.
And as far as criticizing the statement about the city's growth, that statement is true to fact. It is "expected" to have a population of "over 2 million by 2030 and over 3 million by 2040", therefore by today's current ranking's would place the city at second largest in California only to Los Angeles, and third largest in the U.S. because Chicago is currently shrinking, which was specifically written.
As far as the things to do,, general information, places to stay and eat, how to get there, airports, suburb listings, and giving websites of additional resources, there was nothing wrong with writing that at all. (AAA Tour Book lists them, Los Angeles Almanac lists them, and the city website lists them.)
And as of the 2004 city estimate, the current population is 135,575. (www.aveconomy.org - antelopevalleyguide.com)
I live there and you don't. I know what is and what isn't. I know the mayor and the city council. I know the state representative as well. I frequently look at the city website and newspaper. I also look at chamber of commerce site as well. Where do you get your information from? History is fact and therefore cannot be plagiarized, especially from a website that is controlled by a publicly owned entity. 2+2 is 4. It's a fact. It cannot be copyrighted. If you would like to know the truth about the matter, look it up on the city's website and others. www.cityofpalmdale.org - antelopevalleyguide.com - www.palmdalechamber.org - www.palmdalelibrary.org
I have revised it by eliminating the statement about it's projected growth (even though I have it in print in a book).
To make you happy, I have also eliminated the "history" section which I cut and pasted from the city's public library website pending direct approval from the city to use the information. If not, then I'll research and rewrite it in my own words.
The rest of the information is true and correct as it stands.
I did not revise the demographic information on median incomes this time, even though the city's website has different information, which I used to correct it the first time. (2000 US Census states median income at approx. $46000, the city says it's approx. $73000 - who's right?) I left it alone.
I encourage constructive criticism, but please allow me to be the one to edit information on my hometown. I live there. I know it better than someone who lives somewhere else. If there is something you question, write about it. I'll answer it. All of my information comes from books and local websites.
Thank You
Right now I don't have time to go over your comments and changes in detail. I'll mention just a few points:
This article reads more like a commercial for Palmdale than an actual encyclopedia entry. Including one or two of the most important travel spots would be OK, but that entry is more suited for WikiTravel. Also, the "Places to Stay" entry is just ridiculous. Those are the same franchises available in any city with a population of 30k or more. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palmdale is simply not an important city, it's just another desert city experiencing unprecendented population gain from the multitudes of aging baby boomers fleeing the cold North for the hot golf courses of the desert. Also, I'm seriously doubting that Barstow (and most of the other cities listed) is a "suburb" of Palmdale. It's over 80 miles away. In addition, I am removing the part saying that Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are based in Palmdale. The headquarters of Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are located in Chicago, Bethesda MD, and Los Angeles, respectively. Anyway, I would advise removing most of the obviously self-aggrandizing material in this entry. -- Kukuman 22:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mr. Lane, I'd be glad to clean the article up as my time permits. Please see my note in your user page for more info.
As for Kukuman's comments, as a native of the Antelope Valley (AV) who is older than the incorporated city of Palmdale (but not the town of Palmdale!), I'll say:
Looking at my thoughts above, I think you may see as I incorporate these changes into the article in due time, it will be a more balanced and factual piece than it is at present. Please let me know your thoughts. Postings are welcome at my discussion page. Thanks, and Happy Trails! -- avnative 00:46, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
As regards whether or not Palmdale has a metropolitan area: Before jumping to a “yes” or “no” answer, one should first research what the definition of a “metropolitan area” really is, should they not?
In doing research, there exist 2 types of metropolitan areas. The CMSA (Central Statistical Metropolitan Area), and the MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area). The difference?
A CMSA is a major Metropolitan Area made up of several other metropolitan areas. For example, Los Angeles is a CMSA and an MSA, as is New York. The cities of San Diego and Philadelphia both have an MSA of their own, but are included in the CMSA’s of Los Angeles and New York City. CMSA’s are generally referred to as a “Greater Metropolitan Area” or a “Megalopolis.”
An MSA is a standard metropolitan area, and is the one usually referred to by most people. The definition of a MSA or Metropolitan Statistical Area is: “a geographic area comprised of a central urban area (usually the largest city within it) that serves as the hub for employment, commerce, government, educational, and medical facilities, surrounded by smaller urban or suburban areas, that are dependent upon the larger hub-urban center for the above services.”
Does Palmdale fit the criteria for an MSA? Certainly!
EMPLOYMENT CENTER: While Palmdale at one time just a few years back was considered a “commuter city,” it has since grown and developed a central employment area so that now 60% of its residents now work locally. 40% of its population still commutes to Los Angeles. It also employs and has more employment opportunities than any other city in the California high-desert area. A great deal of people commute to Palmdale from places as far as Barstow, Frazier Park, and Ridgecrest for work at its retail establishments and manufacturing companies like Boeing, Lockheed, BAE Systems, American Pole And Lighting, Northrop Grumman, Senior Systems Technology, etc...
COMMERCE CENTER: Palmdale is the principal retail and commerce hub of the high desert region, home to more stores and shopping centers by itself than all the other high-desert communities combined. Victorville is the only other high desert community with a mall and its mall is only 1/3rd the size of Palmdale’s. Palmdale Regional Airport is the only commercial passenger airport in the region, with a proposed 30 gate terminal in the works. While it is true that there has been talk over the years about building this terminal, it has never came true. However, 2 years ago the City of Los Angeles, looking to ease congestion at LAX, BUR, ONT, LGB, and SNA, put forth a $2 million study to develop the project, finally. A city is not going to spend that kind of money on something that they are not planning on doing rather quickly. The airport is resuming commercial service to Las Vegas in September. The airport also has a cargo ramp for local manufacturers. Palmdale is also the hub for the Foreign Trade Zone, which is a federally zoned area for international trade and commerce, granting special tax breaks to manufacturing, industries located within that zone. This zone, governed by Palmdale, surrounds Palmdale Airport and extends as far north as California City, placing all of that area within Palmdale’s SOI or Sphere Of Influence.
GOVERENMENT CENTER: Palmdale has the largest SOI of any city in the high desert region, therefore it generally organizes most planning and development of the area communities within the high desert portion of Los Angeles County (minus Lancaster), and the entire Foreign Trade Zone, which extends far into Kern County. As far as government offices go, the Local Senators and House of Representatives offices are all in Palmdale, as is the County Supervisors district office. The municipal courthouse was equally divided between Palmdale and Lancaster until the new courthouse opened on Columbia Way, the city limit border between the 2 cities.
EDUCATIONAL CENTER: Palmdale is home to more private colleges and universities than any other high desert city. Palmdale started offering satellite University of California classes in the building formerly used for the courthouse. This is being done in plans for a permanent UC campus in Palmdale. Antelope Valley Community College also has plans for a Palmdale campus. As it sits, Palmdale and Lancaster are pretty much even as an educational center, Lancaster being dominant with the basic post-high school education, and Palmdale being dominant with the more advanced bachelors and masters classes.
MEDICAL CENTER: Currently the high desert region’s cities transport the most serious medical and trauma cases to the major hospital facilities in the Inland Empire and L.A. Basin. While Lancaster currently has both general practice hospitals and the senior facilities in the area, Palmdale has the most individual doctor’s and specialist’s offices. Palmdale currently has under construction a major hospital facility with a special care center and trauma center, the first one in the high desert region. Surrounding the new hospital will be senior facilities that will surpass the quantity and services given of those in Lancaster. Upon completion of this hospital in 2005, Palmdale will be the complete medical hub for the entire high desert region.
Part II is about the smaller dependent urban communities or suburbs. Does Palmdale have these? Yes.
While there is much argument about the locality and distance of these, those arguments are irrelevant. The MSA definition answers whether or not a city will qualify or not.
For Example: Toledo, Ohio is closer to Detroit than Palmdale is to Los Angeles, yet Toledo is not counted as part of Detroit’s MSA. Youngstown, Ohio is not counted as part of Cleveland’s MSA, yet it is also closer than Palmdale is to Los Angeles. Milwaukee, Wisconsin is also closer, but is not a part of Chicago’s MSA either, however it is a part of Chicago’s CMSA. The same is true about Palmdale. It has its own MSA, by definition, just as the Inland Empire, Ventura/Oxnard, San Diego, and Santa Barbara. However all of these fall under the Los Angeles CMSA or “Greater Los Angeles / Southern California Area” The basic Los Angeles MSA is strictly the L.A. Basin, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, and Orange County. Even Santa Clarita is not part of the Los Angeles MSA.
What are these suburbs of Palmdale? Other cities that are dependent upon Palmdale for the services of Employment, Commerce, Government, Education, and Medical.
I began my career working in retail and sales and now I work in the medical field. I can truly tell you that Barstow, Victorville, Adelanto, Phelan, Pinon Hills, Hesperia, Apple Valley, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest and California City are dependent on Palmdale for these services. As a matter of fact, the Palmdale Newspaper, Antelope Valley Press, prints the local news from these cities and is distributed in them. Also all of Palmdale’s 9 radio stations and 3 TV stations also are shared among them, boring as though they may be. While the eastern communities of Victor Valley and Barstow may be equally split on dependence between Palmdale and the Inland Empire right now, that gap will close in Palmdale’s favor when the SR-18 is completed as a freeway. Now there is also talk about extending Interstate 40 into Palmdale at the same time as well. However, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest, and California City are all completely dependent upon Palmdale for shopping, educational, and medical needs. People in those communities do not travel to Bakersfield. It appears closer to them on a map, but is really farther away. Go ahead and take a survey. I worked in a department where we sorted the locations of customers and so I know these things for a fact.
And… Victorville is 45 miles from Palmdale and Barstow is 51 miles, not 80. It takes 80 miles to get there because we do not have a direct route there (main reason for extending I-40).
Plus, as I mentioned before, distance is irrelevant. If you still think that it is, look at Flagstaff, AZ’s MSA boundaries and maybe you’ll change your mind.
So upon examination of the actual definition of a Metropolitan Area, I can truthfully say that there does exist a Palmdale Metropolitan area. While its boundaries I gave may be disagreed with, nevertheless, using the definition will help you define the boundaries.
The US Census may not have given an official Metropolitan Area statistic during the 2000 census (once again, due to the lack of knowledge and bad impression), but I guarantee they will in 2010. This still does not take away from the fact that Palmdale has a metropolitan area according to the definition.
http://www.valleyrealty.org/av_demo.htm
Are Burlington, Cary, and Chapel Hill, NC included in the Raleigh/Durham area? They are not mentioned in the name either.
While the area may not be as densley populated as others you have in mind, there is a constant chain of towns and cities between Palmdale and the communities of Victor Valley. Are no point during the journey between the two are you in an unnamed locality where nobody lives. You leave Palmdale and you're in Littlerock. Then you get to Pearblossom, then Llano, then Pinon Hills, then Phelan, then Adelanto, then Victorville. You are either in a city or a town. They may be cities and towns of 3,000 to 20,000 inbetween, but it still counts. You go north on the 15 out of Victorville, you're in Oro Grande, then Helendale, then Barstow. Still, city and town chains have nothing to do with setting an MSA. Otherwise, everything between Virginia Beach and Boston could be counted as an MSA.
Palmdale's metropolitan area's boundaries are really the same as the geographic Antelope Valley itself. Victor Valley, which has Victorville, Apple Valley, Adelanto, and Hesperia, is a sublet valley within the larger Antelope Valley, as is the Tehachapi Valley and Indian Wells Valley that is home to Ridgecrest, Barstow, and California City. So not only are these cities dependent cities, but they are also within the natural geographic area. Those valleys are not separate from the A.V., but rather a part of it. A topographical map will show you that.
Plus, distance is irrelevant when it comes to staging a metro area. City dependency is the greater formula that is used. Take Flagstaff's MSA. (CODE 2620) * Census Website. It's real name is "Flagstaff, AZ - UT MSA." Is Flagstaff heavily urbanized? Flagstaff's MSA includes Kanab, UT. How far is Kanab, UT from Flagstaff? 206 Miles driving, about 175 miles flying! That is quite a bit farther than the 51 miles to Barstow. That would actually be the same as including Needles in Palmdale's MSA. What is between Flagstaff and Kanab? Nothing! The Grand Canyon, Page, and Tuba City, that's all. It is given to Flagstaff based on the fact that people who are in Kanab use Flagstaff as their urban service center. The same way that Barstow and Victor Valley residents use Palmdale for their urban service center. Plus, there are plenty more people living between Palmdale and Barstow than live in that whole Flagstaff MSA. It is not as sparsely populated as you may think.
Anyway, like I said before, Victorville and Barstow are evenly split between Palmdale and the Inland Empire for their services.
Education, Medical (with major trauma going to the I.E. and basic services going to Palmdale), Employment, and Government (with County going to the I.E. and House & Senate Representatives going to Palmdale) are evenly split between the two MSA's. Commerce and shopping primarily goes to Palmdale.
Say what you want about them. It can go either way. Include them with Palmdale or the I.E. for the time being. But when the new freeway is built, they will be completely included in Palmdale's MSA for everything.
The other communities of Tehachapi, Cal City, and Ridgecrest are all currently fully dependent on Palmdale for everything and are therefore counted as part of the MSA.
The Palmdale City Library gave permission to place a link to it's website history page. http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/ for information regarding the history of the city.
Dear anon, since you and I live in the Antelope Valley around the Palmdale area, I would like to invite you to dinner - hopefully sometime next week (I'm away at a seminar the rest of this week). I'll buy! Please let me know your likes and dislikes as to times, days, and cuisine. I think this way our differences may be amicably settled in a friendly way without creating embarrassment regarding the Wikipedia Palmdale article. Of course, our "password" to help the wait staff bring us to the same table would be "Wikipedia."
I (and you) could continue on in print the way it's been going, but I think a verbal and friendly dinner meeting would be a good thing. Waddya say? Looking forward to hearing from you at your convenience. Happy Trails, -- avnative 16:08, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
An anonymous user added considerable material to the Rambot article. Much of the addition was plagiarized from the copyrighted website of the Palmdale Main Library (for example, the History section at http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/part2.shtml). Some other things were just silly, like the statement that Palmdale, with a current population of 135,515, "is expected to become the second largest city (Los Angeles-1st) in California and 3rd largest in the United States within the next couple decades." There may be a little bit of wheat in with all this chaff, but I can't sort it out and so have reverted the whole thing. JamesMLane 16:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The information previously given is true and correct.
The information posted in the history section was from the city public library and is available for public use. The city does not copyright facts about it's history as long as they are not altered to reflect inaccuracies. As a matter of fact, the city wants accurate information available about itself abroad due to the poor, biased, inaccurate implications given to it by the entertainment media and others. Therefore, it is not plagiarism. I am a journalist and I know the definition.
And as far as criticizing the statement about the city's growth, that statement is true to fact. It is "expected" to have a population of "over 2 million by 2030 and over 3 million by 2040", therefore by today's current ranking's would place the city at second largest in California only to Los Angeles, and third largest in the U.S. because Chicago is currently shrinking, which was specifically written.
As far as the things to do,, general information, places to stay and eat, how to get there, airports, suburb listings, and giving websites of additional resources, there was nothing wrong with writing that at all. (AAA Tour Book lists them, Los Angeles Almanac lists them, and the city website lists them.)
And as of the 2004 city estimate, the current population is 135,575. (www.aveconomy.org - antelopevalleyguide.com)
I live there and you don't. I know what is and what isn't. I know the mayor and the city council. I know the state representative as well. I frequently look at the city website and newspaper. I also look at chamber of commerce site as well. Where do you get your information from? History is fact and therefore cannot be plagiarized, especially from a website that is controlled by a publicly owned entity. 2+2 is 4. It's a fact. It cannot be copyrighted. If you would like to know the truth about the matter, look it up on the city's website and others. www.cityofpalmdale.org - antelopevalleyguide.com - www.palmdalechamber.org - www.palmdalelibrary.org
I have revised it by eliminating the statement about it's projected growth (even though I have it in print in a book).
To make you happy, I have also eliminated the "history" section which I cut and pasted from the city's public library website pending direct approval from the city to use the information. If not, then I'll research and rewrite it in my own words.
The rest of the information is true and correct as it stands.
I did not revise the demographic information on median incomes this time, even though the city's website has different information, which I used to correct it the first time. (2000 US Census states median income at approx. $46000, the city says it's approx. $73000 - who's right?) I left it alone.
I encourage constructive criticism, but please allow me to be the one to edit information on my hometown. I live there. I know it better than someone who lives somewhere else. If there is something you question, write about it. I'll answer it. All of my information comes from books and local websites.
Thank You
Right now I don't have time to go over your comments and changes in detail. I'll mention just a few points:
This article reads more like a commercial for Palmdale than an actual encyclopedia entry. Including one or two of the most important travel spots would be OK, but that entry is more suited for WikiTravel. Also, the "Places to Stay" entry is just ridiculous. Those are the same franchises available in any city with a population of 30k or more. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Palmdale is simply not an important city, it's just another desert city experiencing unprecendented population gain from the multitudes of aging baby boomers fleeing the cold North for the hot golf courses of the desert. Also, I'm seriously doubting that Barstow (and most of the other cities listed) is a "suburb" of Palmdale. It's over 80 miles away. In addition, I am removing the part saying that Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are based in Palmdale. The headquarters of Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman are located in Chicago, Bethesda MD, and Los Angeles, respectively. Anyway, I would advise removing most of the obviously self-aggrandizing material in this entry. -- Kukuman 22:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mr. Lane, I'd be glad to clean the article up as my time permits. Please see my note in your user page for more info.
As for Kukuman's comments, as a native of the Antelope Valley (AV) who is older than the incorporated city of Palmdale (but not the town of Palmdale!), I'll say:
Looking at my thoughts above, I think you may see as I incorporate these changes into the article in due time, it will be a more balanced and factual piece than it is at present. Please let me know your thoughts. Postings are welcome at my discussion page. Thanks, and Happy Trails! -- avnative 00:46, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)
As regards whether or not Palmdale has a metropolitan area: Before jumping to a “yes” or “no” answer, one should first research what the definition of a “metropolitan area” really is, should they not?
In doing research, there exist 2 types of metropolitan areas. The CMSA (Central Statistical Metropolitan Area), and the MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area). The difference?
A CMSA is a major Metropolitan Area made up of several other metropolitan areas. For example, Los Angeles is a CMSA and an MSA, as is New York. The cities of San Diego and Philadelphia both have an MSA of their own, but are included in the CMSA’s of Los Angeles and New York City. CMSA’s are generally referred to as a “Greater Metropolitan Area” or a “Megalopolis.”
An MSA is a standard metropolitan area, and is the one usually referred to by most people. The definition of a MSA or Metropolitan Statistical Area is: “a geographic area comprised of a central urban area (usually the largest city within it) that serves as the hub for employment, commerce, government, educational, and medical facilities, surrounded by smaller urban or suburban areas, that are dependent upon the larger hub-urban center for the above services.”
Does Palmdale fit the criteria for an MSA? Certainly!
EMPLOYMENT CENTER: While Palmdale at one time just a few years back was considered a “commuter city,” it has since grown and developed a central employment area so that now 60% of its residents now work locally. 40% of its population still commutes to Los Angeles. It also employs and has more employment opportunities than any other city in the California high-desert area. A great deal of people commute to Palmdale from places as far as Barstow, Frazier Park, and Ridgecrest for work at its retail establishments and manufacturing companies like Boeing, Lockheed, BAE Systems, American Pole And Lighting, Northrop Grumman, Senior Systems Technology, etc...
COMMERCE CENTER: Palmdale is the principal retail and commerce hub of the high desert region, home to more stores and shopping centers by itself than all the other high-desert communities combined. Victorville is the only other high desert community with a mall and its mall is only 1/3rd the size of Palmdale’s. Palmdale Regional Airport is the only commercial passenger airport in the region, with a proposed 30 gate terminal in the works. While it is true that there has been talk over the years about building this terminal, it has never came true. However, 2 years ago the City of Los Angeles, looking to ease congestion at LAX, BUR, ONT, LGB, and SNA, put forth a $2 million study to develop the project, finally. A city is not going to spend that kind of money on something that they are not planning on doing rather quickly. The airport is resuming commercial service to Las Vegas in September. The airport also has a cargo ramp for local manufacturers. Palmdale is also the hub for the Foreign Trade Zone, which is a federally zoned area for international trade and commerce, granting special tax breaks to manufacturing, industries located within that zone. This zone, governed by Palmdale, surrounds Palmdale Airport and extends as far north as California City, placing all of that area within Palmdale’s SOI or Sphere Of Influence.
GOVERENMENT CENTER: Palmdale has the largest SOI of any city in the high desert region, therefore it generally organizes most planning and development of the area communities within the high desert portion of Los Angeles County (minus Lancaster), and the entire Foreign Trade Zone, which extends far into Kern County. As far as government offices go, the Local Senators and House of Representatives offices are all in Palmdale, as is the County Supervisors district office. The municipal courthouse was equally divided between Palmdale and Lancaster until the new courthouse opened on Columbia Way, the city limit border between the 2 cities.
EDUCATIONAL CENTER: Palmdale is home to more private colleges and universities than any other high desert city. Palmdale started offering satellite University of California classes in the building formerly used for the courthouse. This is being done in plans for a permanent UC campus in Palmdale. Antelope Valley Community College also has plans for a Palmdale campus. As it sits, Palmdale and Lancaster are pretty much even as an educational center, Lancaster being dominant with the basic post-high school education, and Palmdale being dominant with the more advanced bachelors and masters classes.
MEDICAL CENTER: Currently the high desert region’s cities transport the most serious medical and trauma cases to the major hospital facilities in the Inland Empire and L.A. Basin. While Lancaster currently has both general practice hospitals and the senior facilities in the area, Palmdale has the most individual doctor’s and specialist’s offices. Palmdale currently has under construction a major hospital facility with a special care center and trauma center, the first one in the high desert region. Surrounding the new hospital will be senior facilities that will surpass the quantity and services given of those in Lancaster. Upon completion of this hospital in 2005, Palmdale will be the complete medical hub for the entire high desert region.
Part II is about the smaller dependent urban communities or suburbs. Does Palmdale have these? Yes.
While there is much argument about the locality and distance of these, those arguments are irrelevant. The MSA definition answers whether or not a city will qualify or not.
For Example: Toledo, Ohio is closer to Detroit than Palmdale is to Los Angeles, yet Toledo is not counted as part of Detroit’s MSA. Youngstown, Ohio is not counted as part of Cleveland’s MSA, yet it is also closer than Palmdale is to Los Angeles. Milwaukee, Wisconsin is also closer, but is not a part of Chicago’s MSA either, however it is a part of Chicago’s CMSA. The same is true about Palmdale. It has its own MSA, by definition, just as the Inland Empire, Ventura/Oxnard, San Diego, and Santa Barbara. However all of these fall under the Los Angeles CMSA or “Greater Los Angeles / Southern California Area” The basic Los Angeles MSA is strictly the L.A. Basin, San Fernando Valley, San Gabriel Valley, and Orange County. Even Santa Clarita is not part of the Los Angeles MSA.
What are these suburbs of Palmdale? Other cities that are dependent upon Palmdale for the services of Employment, Commerce, Government, Education, and Medical.
I began my career working in retail and sales and now I work in the medical field. I can truly tell you that Barstow, Victorville, Adelanto, Phelan, Pinon Hills, Hesperia, Apple Valley, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest and California City are dependent on Palmdale for these services. As a matter of fact, the Palmdale Newspaper, Antelope Valley Press, prints the local news from these cities and is distributed in them. Also all of Palmdale’s 9 radio stations and 3 TV stations also are shared among them, boring as though they may be. While the eastern communities of Victor Valley and Barstow may be equally split on dependence between Palmdale and the Inland Empire right now, that gap will close in Palmdale’s favor when the SR-18 is completed as a freeway. Now there is also talk about extending Interstate 40 into Palmdale at the same time as well. However, Tehachapi, Ridgecrest, and California City are all completely dependent upon Palmdale for shopping, educational, and medical needs. People in those communities do not travel to Bakersfield. It appears closer to them on a map, but is really farther away. Go ahead and take a survey. I worked in a department where we sorted the locations of customers and so I know these things for a fact.
And… Victorville is 45 miles from Palmdale and Barstow is 51 miles, not 80. It takes 80 miles to get there because we do not have a direct route there (main reason for extending I-40).
Plus, as I mentioned before, distance is irrelevant. If you still think that it is, look at Flagstaff, AZ’s MSA boundaries and maybe you’ll change your mind.
So upon examination of the actual definition of a Metropolitan Area, I can truthfully say that there does exist a Palmdale Metropolitan area. While its boundaries I gave may be disagreed with, nevertheless, using the definition will help you define the boundaries.
The US Census may not have given an official Metropolitan Area statistic during the 2000 census (once again, due to the lack of knowledge and bad impression), but I guarantee they will in 2010. This still does not take away from the fact that Palmdale has a metropolitan area according to the definition.
http://www.valleyrealty.org/av_demo.htm
Are Burlington, Cary, and Chapel Hill, NC included in the Raleigh/Durham area? They are not mentioned in the name either.
While the area may not be as densley populated as others you have in mind, there is a constant chain of towns and cities between Palmdale and the communities of Victor Valley. Are no point during the journey between the two are you in an unnamed locality where nobody lives. You leave Palmdale and you're in Littlerock. Then you get to Pearblossom, then Llano, then Pinon Hills, then Phelan, then Adelanto, then Victorville. You are either in a city or a town. They may be cities and towns of 3,000 to 20,000 inbetween, but it still counts. You go north on the 15 out of Victorville, you're in Oro Grande, then Helendale, then Barstow. Still, city and town chains have nothing to do with setting an MSA. Otherwise, everything between Virginia Beach and Boston could be counted as an MSA.
Palmdale's metropolitan area's boundaries are really the same as the geographic Antelope Valley itself. Victor Valley, which has Victorville, Apple Valley, Adelanto, and Hesperia, is a sublet valley within the larger Antelope Valley, as is the Tehachapi Valley and Indian Wells Valley that is home to Ridgecrest, Barstow, and California City. So not only are these cities dependent cities, but they are also within the natural geographic area. Those valleys are not separate from the A.V., but rather a part of it. A topographical map will show you that.
Plus, distance is irrelevant when it comes to staging a metro area. City dependency is the greater formula that is used. Take Flagstaff's MSA. (CODE 2620) * Census Website. It's real name is "Flagstaff, AZ - UT MSA." Is Flagstaff heavily urbanized? Flagstaff's MSA includes Kanab, UT. How far is Kanab, UT from Flagstaff? 206 Miles driving, about 175 miles flying! That is quite a bit farther than the 51 miles to Barstow. That would actually be the same as including Needles in Palmdale's MSA. What is between Flagstaff and Kanab? Nothing! The Grand Canyon, Page, and Tuba City, that's all. It is given to Flagstaff based on the fact that people who are in Kanab use Flagstaff as their urban service center. The same way that Barstow and Victor Valley residents use Palmdale for their urban service center. Plus, there are plenty more people living between Palmdale and Barstow than live in that whole Flagstaff MSA. It is not as sparsely populated as you may think.
Anyway, like I said before, Victorville and Barstow are evenly split between Palmdale and the Inland Empire for their services.
Education, Medical (with major trauma going to the I.E. and basic services going to Palmdale), Employment, and Government (with County going to the I.E. and House & Senate Representatives going to Palmdale) are evenly split between the two MSA's. Commerce and shopping primarily goes to Palmdale.
Say what you want about them. It can go either way. Include them with Palmdale or the I.E. for the time being. But when the new freeway is built, they will be completely included in Palmdale's MSA for everything.
The other communities of Tehachapi, Cal City, and Ridgecrest are all currently fully dependent on Palmdale for everything and are therefore counted as part of the MSA.
The Palmdale City Library gave permission to place a link to it's website history page. http://www.palmdalelibrary.org/history/ for information regarding the history of the city.
Dear anon, since you and I live in the Antelope Valley around the Palmdale area, I would like to invite you to dinner - hopefully sometime next week (I'm away at a seminar the rest of this week). I'll buy! Please let me know your likes and dislikes as to times, days, and cuisine. I think this way our differences may be amicably settled in a friendly way without creating embarrassment regarding the Wikipedia Palmdale article. Of course, our "password" to help the wait staff bring us to the same table would be "Wikipedia."
I (and you) could continue on in print the way it's been going, but I think a verbal and friendly dinner meeting would be a good thing. Waddya say? Looking forward to hearing from you at your convenience. Happy Trails, -- avnative 16:08, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)