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It is worth to mention that after the Roman expel the Jews they changed the name from Judea to Palestine. 87.69.77.82 18:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
On the current edit skirmish on the intro - a magazine article by a non-expert cannot be considered an RS for such a claim. We need another source - an academic source, that is, by an expert in the field (political science, I guess). I'm sure it won't be hard to find - it's not a very contentious claim. okedem 21:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not the author's claim, it's the claim in the book he is reviewing by Rashid Khalidi, who is extensively quoted in this article and is a reocgnized authority on the subject. Stoip deleting it. Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have a problem including Samaritans if we could show that a significant portion have citizenship, since this is an issue of national identification. We shouldn't be using various rhetoric as a substitute though, something which is even clearer in the case of Druze and Jews. As far as I know, there are no Druze settlements in the West Bank, while those in Israel make a point of serving in the military. The Golan Heights have nothing to do with Palestinians, and those Druze identify with Syria. I recall that all this was discussed months ago though... Tewfik Talk 18:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Armon, can you give me the source for the claim that "Palestinians" is the "most common term" for the subject of this article? Thanks, -- G-Dett ( talk) 23:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
– Only 16 percent said their sympathies lay with the Palestinians, compared to 45 percent for Israel...
– A stalemate in negotiations may lead Israel and the Palestinians to write up separate statements detailing their political agendas ahead of the U.S.-led peace conference...
– The fate of some 3.5 million Palestinian refugees across the Arab world is one of the toughest issues in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. ...
Evidence. Even if you can argue the toss about the use of the term 60% of the time, the remaining 40% of 17,400 is still more than for the "Palestinian people" phrase -and that's without arguing the toss regarding those results. There is also Google News, where we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> ( talk) 19:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have re-added the section on ARAB leaders who state that the so-called "Palestinian People" do not exist. This is necessary because the attempt to only quote Golda Meir is a transparent attempt to paint Golda Meir and the State of Israel as racist and thus violates the NPOV standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricalReality ( talk • contribs) 14:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
This addition to the "Palestinian People" article is an attempt to discuss and determine the extent to which there is , was or will ever be any peoples known as the palestinians.
How many Shia Muslim Palestinians are there if any (not counting Druze)? Funkynusayri 00:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
per this rev - [1].
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
suggestion - i suggest we break this subsection to two and regroup the arguments succinctly so that we could maybe raise compromises or ask for a 3rd opinion (from uninvolved users) on the issues. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 00:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Could just say "few hundred". <<-armon->> ( talk) 10:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The word nation, (throughout the article), and the source say explicitly:
"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."
Please provide evidence that states that "Palestinians are a nation" is "disputed". In other words, please provide sources for your assertion that this well-sourced piece of information is incorrect or in dispute. Until then, the information stays. Indeed, it is required per WP:LEAD Tiamut 22:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This quote firmly establishes that those who deny that Palestinians constitute a nation are a fringe minority. Tiamut 13:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."
Note to IronDuke as well, from another review of Khalidi's work:
It is Khalidi's central thesis that Palestinian identity, far from being a product of the 1947-49 nakba was in fact constructed over a long period of time, most importantly during the nineteenth century. While this claim should hardly be surprising to serious students of the evolution of Arab identities, it is one that needs to be reiterated because of the persistent denial of the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism or even the existence of the Palestinians as a distinct people. On the one hand, this denial is absolute, as in Golda Meir's notorious remark that the Palestinians did not exist, or Joan Peters's more recent tendentious (and largely fraudulent) book claiming that the Palestinian Arabs were predominantly if not exclusively recent immigrants from neighboring regions. Indeed, it is a sad comment on the state of at least popular discussions of the Arab-Israeli conflict that Khalidi, writing after the official Israeli acknowledgement of Palestinian national aspirations and recognition of the PLO as their representative in the 1993 Oslo accords, is forced to refute the spurious claims of From Time Immemorial.
As I said before, those contesting the inclusion of this verifiable, accurate and reliably sourced information attesting to Palestinians constituting a nation are asked to provide a source (other than From Time Immemorial) that says that they are not. Tiamut 23:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is insane. I am trying to have a source-based discussion with you, not solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While related to the subject matter at hand in this article, it is not even the subject of this article. The subject of this article is a nation of people who call themselves Palestinian people. I have provided you sources and the article itself attests to the fact that most of the world recognizes them as a nation (not to be confused with nation-state. You have (so far) provided nothing but platitudes. Please focus on the task at hand. Tiamut 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
First off, Tiamut, I think your quote from Khalidi more or less makes my point. Nowhere does he say “nation”, but instead talks of “national aspirations.” That can only mean that they are not yet a nation, if I understand the word “aspire” (and I believe I do). But you asked for sources, which is fair enough.
And I believe there are quite a few more.
I think one difficulty we’re having here is semantic. If we want to say that “Nation” means sovereign government, then “Palestine” fails. If we want to use it in the more lyrical sense of group of persons who consider themselves a people, then I think a powerful argument can be made for its use. The difficulty is, the reader isn’t going to be able to determine what sense we’re using it in if we put it in the lead like that. If someone wants to make up a “Nation” header and discuss these issues under it, that might be a good thing. But we shouldn't put a controversial, confusing statement up front in the lead. IronDuke 01:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"1: national character 2: nationalism 1 3 a: national status; specifically : a legal relationship involving allegiance on the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the state b: membership in a particular nation 4: political independence or existence as a separate nation 5 a: a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state b: an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (as a nation)" [5] Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tiamut and Eleland. Yes, there are some Zionists past and present who assert that Palestinians don't constitute a people or a nation, just as there are various Arab nationalists, pan-nationalists, and extremists who claim Israel isn't a state but an "entity." Big deal. Wikipedia currently deals with that "dispute" by describing Israel as a state in Israel, and having a separate article on the deniers' terminology, " Zionist entity." Something like that could work here too. Perhaps a separate article called No such thing as Palestinians.
At any rate, the section on self-identifying terms in Wikipedia's policy on naming conflicts settles this dispute definitively. The fact that there have been and still are voices who deny Palestinian nationhood can be noted in this article or another, per consensus.-- G-Dett ( talk) 01:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Names can sometimes be controversial because of perceived negative political connotations, historical conflicts or territorial disputes. However, Wikipedia does not take sides in a political controversy or determine what is something or someone's true, proper name. What this encyclopedia does, rather, is to describe the controversy. (bolding in original)
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.
This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.
As did I. It's a simple case of a violation of NPOV which is a non-negotiable core policy. <<-armon->> ( talk) 08:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Ironduke is correct about much of what he's saying, and he's clearly approaching this in a reasonable way, but Tiamut is quite right that he continues to blur the distinction between nations and nation-states. His point about "no clear boundaries, no capital as such, no army, no embassies, etc." is the most obvious example. I think the guideline on self-identifying terms clearly applies here; but it should also be noted that even in the academic literature "nation" is established through self-identification (Benedict Anderson's Imaginary Communities is probably the most important and influential text on nation-formation in modernity). If large numbers of Palestinians contested that identification, there would be an NPOV problem. Referring to a Lebanese "nation" would be an NPOV problem for precisely this reason – many Lebanese see themselves as part of a "greater Syria," while others see themselves as "Phoenicians," and look to Europe for their cultural orientation. But Palestinians both Sunni and Christian see themselves as tightly bound by a common history and a collective future, and the skepticism of outsiders is neither here nor there – both with regards to Wikipedia policy and to the anthropological definition of nationhood. That the likes of Hafez al-Assad on the one hand and Benjamin Netanyahu on the other have found reason to contest the existence of a Palestinian nation is interesting and notable, but it has no bearing whatsoever – with respect to NPOV or any other policy – on our use of the term.
This leads us to Armon and 6SJ7's ongoing confusion, which is of a very different order from Ironduke's casual and colloquial conflation of nation and nation-state. There is an important distinction between the notability and reliability of a claim, which Armon and 6SJ7 persist in ignoring. It is notable that certain figures – say, Zionists and pan-Arab nationalists – deny Palestinian nationhood, but their claims aren't reliable for either the definition of "nation" or the existence of a Palestinian nation. In exactly the same way, it is notable that various Arab leaders past and present have refused to recognize Israel as a state and insist instead that it's an "entity" in a temporary sense; but this position is not a reliable one to be factored in to an NPOV presentation of Israel's status.-- G-Dett ( talk) 15:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Michael Palin: An argument isn't just contradiction.
John Cleese: It can be.
Michael Palin: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
John Cleese: No it isn't.
Michael Palin: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
John Cleese: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Michael Palin: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: No it isn't!
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause) John Cleese: No it isn't.
the page is locked (because editors refused to resolve disputes properly) so we've now degenerated onto a revert war on the talk page? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 06:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Why so resistant to use such an obviously appropriate term to describe the subject of this article?
And why so resistant to this eminently mainstream source, Salon (magazine): Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of "the other 22 Arab states," most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own.
It clearly indicates the mainstream usage of of nation to refer to Palestinians as distinct from nation-state is widely understood.
It's Orwellian to omit the word nation when the entire Palestinian struggle for self-determination has been a national one, widely acknolwedged throughout the world. Why deny reality? Tiamut 19:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, your arguments above are very nicety written; indeed, it is almost worth arguing with you merely for the sake of your lucid prose. Delightful as it is, however, it does not remedy that 1) you’ve sauntered casually past some of my arguments above and 2) you’ve muddled the argument that you did take up. To wit:
You think I’ve blurred the distinction between nation and nation-state? Try looking at what the reverters are reverting to when they insert the word nation back into the text. First line: “A nation is a form of cultural or social community.’ Do the Palestinians fit this? Yeah, sure, I guess—why not? So does Raider Nation. Helpful? Next sentence: “Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism.” Um… what? Assuming that sentence had any useful meaning, who is it that asserts the ideas contained in it? Source? Later on we have, “Past events are framed in this context; for example; by referring to "our soldiers" in conflicts which took place hundreds of years ago.” Were there conflicts in, say 1800 that involved the ancestors of people living in the territories today, and did those people call themselves Palestinian and/or think of themselves as a Nation. (I will award special bonus points to anyone who tries to assert that the Philistines were the ancestors of today’s Palestinians). Later we have, “A nation is usually the people of a state…” Well, not in this case. Then we have “In the strict sense, terms such as nation, ethnos, and 'people' (as in 'the Danish people') denominate a group of human beings.”
As I read that sentence, awkward as it is, it makes me realize that folks on this page are arguing that the Palestinians are a nation in that exact sense conveyed by the title of the article, “Palestinian people.” The Palestinians are a people, the article already conveys this, why add a confusing, contentious word with multiple meanings?
Also, I will reintroduce my earlier argument, as no one seems to have dealt with it. The quote in the footnote of the “Nation” version of the article says, “most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation…” And this is from who? Jonathan Shainin? Is he a "top-tier” source on Israel/Palestine? And again, the article begins with, “Rashid Khalidi explains why Palestinians have failed to create a nation.” Is it possible that Shainin does not agree with the header of his own article? Barely, though it’s far more likely that, had he disagreed with it, he would have had it removed. So what we have now, based on Khalidi’s rejection of Palestinian nationhood, and the sources I’ve brought, is a strong argument for specifically disavowing that the Palestinians comprise a nation—and doing so in the lead. I’m not making this argument, of course, but I think it’s fair to say that use of the word “Nation” in the lead is misleading at best, and at worst violates WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:LEAD, WP:UNDUE, and WP:SERIOUSLY, WHY IS THIS SUCH A HUGE DEAL?.
And once again: I am not conflating “nation” and “nation state”: the people inserting the word nation into the article are. IronDuke 18:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
IronDuke, the Palestinians do meet every reasonable definition of a nation. If you review the discussion in Archive 11 on the RfC for this issue, you will see that of the different definitions offered, Palestinians were judged to fit every one. The only definition they fail to qualify for is not nation, but rather nation-state, which you continually seem to be confusing here. A paucity of familiarity on the part of some Wikipedia readers with the scholarship on nationhood, should not prevent us from using a term. It only means that we must bettert explain it. There are many good sources on this subject, many of which are already cited throughout the article. Indeed, it is impossible to speak of Palestinian nationalism without acknowledging that Palestinians are a nation. You can't be nationalistic if you do not share a sense of national identity with others; i.e. constitute a nation. Please review the discussion in Archive 11 under the RfC sub-heading (not the first one of whether or not Palestinians constitute a people, but the second oneon whether the fact that they constitute a nation can be mentioned in the lead.) And about wit, unfortunately, I have the very direst sense of humour, appreicated only by me. Tiamut 21:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
"The purpose of this book is to overcome these impediments, in order to explain how a strong sense of Palestinian national identity developed in spite of, and in some cases because of, the obstacles it faced."(6)
and,
"The Palestinians, of course, do have one asset in spite of everything: a powerful sense of national identity, which we have seen they were able to develop and maintain inspite of extradordinary vicissitudes."(205)
"...a Palestininan identity has asserted itself and survived against all odds, and in spite of the many failures we have touched on. Dulles said in the 1950s that the Palestinians would disappear, and Golda Meir spoke in 1969 as if they had disappeared, going so far as to declare that they never existed in the first place. But they have not disappeared, and even their most determined opponents seem to have begun to reconcile themselves to this uncomfortable fact. For these opponents, whether Israel, or some Arab states or the great powers, the nonexistence of the Palestinians would have made things considerably easier at various stages of history. But inconvenient though their identity has often been for others, the Palestinians have remained stubbornly attached to it. This probably must be adjudged a success, although it is a small one.
Rashidi ends the book by stating that it remains to be seen whether the world will "finally allow the achievement of self-determination, statehood, and national independence the modern world has taught us is the 'natural state' of peoples with an independent national identity like the Palestinians." Tiamut 23:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
A book review of Rashid Khalidi on Salon.com is a poor and partisan source for a consensus claim such as this. See WP:ASF and WP:RS The cite itself notes that there remains some dispute -which we know to be true, like it or not. It's unnecessary to "bang the point home" because the third paragraph addresses the issue perfectly well. See Let the facts speak for themselves
<<-armon->> 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Such a definition of national identity also sets it clearly apart from any conception of the state. The latter refers exclusively to public institutions, differentiated from, and autonomous of, other social institutions and exercising a monopoloy coercion and extraction within a given territory. The nation, on the other hand, signifies a cultural and political bond, uniting in a single political community all who share an historic culture and homeland.
In fact, nations, like states, are a contingency, and not a universal necessity. Neither nations nor states exist at all times and in all circumstances. Moreover, nations and states are not the same contingency. Nationalism holds that they were destined for each other; that either without the other is incomplete and constitutes a tragedy. But before they could become intended for each other, each of them had to emerge, and their emergence was independent and contingent. (p.6, Gellner's emphasis)
This is all completely beside the point. We can argue the relative merits of any number of points of view on the "nation" question but it doesn't matter. There are obvious differences in perspective on this question which can be reliably sourced and which we aren't tasked with sorting out. NPOV requires us to not take sides, and not present opinion as fact. Very simple. <<-armon->> ( talk) 22:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
..."notable denial" and "reliable denial" is a false distinction which only begs the question. It's easy to find the difference of opinion on the "nation" question published in reliable sources. Who some WP editors consider to be correct is irrelevant. <<-armon->> ( talk) 09:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The answer is: There are different opinions on this depending whom you talk to. From those who say that the Palestinians are a nation; there are:
All of these positions and some; are reflected in the above discussion by its Wikipedians and sources brought down (thanks to IronDuke). We as Wikipedians can't know for sure who belongs where on this heated issue; so we'll have to give almost everybody here the "benefit of the doubt" that they belong to the second of the list. That isn't to say that it is so; just that we'll pretend that it is so.
Wikipedians don't get to decide if Palestinians are a nation; and even if they do decide, it only becomes their own personal opinion; therefore Wikipedians aren't given the task to decide that, only to report on it. Those that want WP to state in the lead their view that Palestinians are a nation; need to prove that another significant opinion doesn't exist. I guess, first we are going to fight on what "significant" means; then we'll fight what "is" is. Have fun!
Remember regardless what your position is; the question is not if the "Palestinians are a nation", that is not for us to decide; the question is: should this article censure the view held by Arabs and Jews; Muslims and Christians; then and now, that the "Palestinians are not a nation. Itzse ( talk) 23:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Itzse, you've said you don't have time for Khalidi, very well. Do you have time for Hobsbawm? Anderson? Do you have any time whatsoever for any of the literature on nations and nation-formation? Because your posts here, passionate and articulate as they are, do not show any fluency or even familiarity with the terms you're arguing about. It's like you're on the Tomato talk page arguing that it's not for Wikipedia to say whether tomatoes are fruits or vegetables, because lots of folks think of them as the latter. There is a difference between lay impressions, casual and vernacular classifications etc. on the one hand, and concrete terms from the disciplines of history, political science, etc. on the other. NPOV with regards to claims of fact is not achieved by throwing the two into a blender and serving up the resulting slop.
If you take away some of the insinuating and patronizing rhetoric ("the Palestinian Arabs have become smarter" etc.), the gist of what you say about "a new strategy of creating a country called Palestine for a 'Palestinian people'" is correct. Where you then go totally off the map is in imagining that identifying the role of such strategies somehow undermines the claim to nationhood. It doesn't. Not in the slightest. This is an extremely common fallacy, one that virtually every historian of nations and nation-formation has underscored: the misconception that nations arise from a deep primordial past, and that if you can point either to the recent-ness of the idea that such-and-such people constitute a nation, or to the role of political or strategic calculation in their formation as such, then you've undermined their claim to nation-ness. Anderson described this fallacy memorably by comparing "the objective modernity of nations to the historian's eye vs. their subjective antiquity in the eyes of nationalists" (excuse me for repeating that quote, but you do not appear to have read the talk page you claim to summarize). And Hobsbawm said "I cannot but add that no serious historian of nations and nationalism can be a committed political nationalist...Nationalism requires too much belief in what is patently not so." Renan said even more memorably that "getting its history wrong is part of being a nation." Hobsbawm expanded on Renan's insight in a book called Invented Traditions, saying that these inventions (which is what you're describing as a "stategy," Itzse) are not only not disqualifying with regards to nation-ness; they are in fact constitutive of it. And in a famous passage he invoked Israel and Palestine as paradigmatic examples of this:
In this connection, one specific interest of “invented traditions” for, at all events, modern and contemporary historians ought to be singled out. They are highly relevant to that comparatively recent historical innovation, the “nation,” with its associated phenomena: nationalism, the nation-state, national symbols, histories and the rest. All these rest on exercises in social engineering which are often deliberate and always innovative, if only because historical novelty implies innovation. Israeli and Palestinian nationalism or nations must be novel, whatever the historic continuities of Jews or Middle Eastern Muslims, since the very concept of territorial states of the currently standard type in their region was barely thought of a century ago, and hardly became a serious prospect before the end of World War I.
What is interesting about this is that Hobsbawm does not introduce Israeli and Palestinian nationalisms as outliers, as stragglers just making it over the qualifying bar to join the family of nations. Quite the contrary, he seizes upon the very recentness, regional contingency, and strategic willfulness that characterized their nation-formation precisely to make a point about the historicity and indeed the inventedness of nations in general. Nations, as Anderson puts it, are "historical artifacts."
Is this coming through, Itzse? Saying that 100 years ago there was no Palestinian nation, or that they’ve just formed a nation as part of a reaction against Israel in the last 50 years, doesn’t even put a dent in their accepted status as a nation today. What would put a dent in that status would be a claim from a source reliable in the relevant field(s) arguing that for reasons X, Y, and Z Palestinians do not constitute a nation as that term is properly used. So far, not a single such claim has been brought forward.-- G-Dett ( talk) 18:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7, have you read the article at all? I only ask because what you are asking to be done has already been done. There is an entire subsection devoted to the process by which Palestinian nationhood emerged and was defined (See Palestinian people#Emergent Nationalism(s)). Further, the third paragraph of the introduction reads:
The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[2] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[3] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state.[2]
Thus far, no reliable scholarly sources have been provided that establish that Palestinians are not a nation (as the term is used in scholarship). Everytime an editor asks for such a source to be produced, the reply is equivocation, rhetoric, and tangential argumentation. Please produce scholarly sources that you would like to see represented in the article and we can work together on including them. If we find that there is a significant body of scholarship that denies that Palestinians are a nation, we can then reevaluate the appropriateness of placing the simple sentence "Palestinians are a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine". Until then, this is an honest, WP:NPOV reflection of the scholarship has to stay, indeed its central to the subject of Palestinian identity as established throughout the article, and per [WP:LEAD]] it should be included in the introduction. Tiamut 19:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
comment - "the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people" =national movement && !=nation. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
All the reliable sources provided thus far support the idea that Palestinians are a nation. The arguments offered by the minority of editors on this page against the usage of the term are quite frankly uncompelling. I have to agree with CasualObserver48 here: we should be using the term nation, and not people. The title of the article is Palestinian people and the first sentence should read: Palestinian people is a term used to refer to a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. This is not controversial, despite the persistent and vocal protests of a minority of editors who have not invoked any sound policy based reasons to ignore reliable sources, WP:NPOV, and WP:LEAD. The essence of Palestinian identity is rooted in the struggle of the national liberation movement. Indeed, it is this quest that is a defining charateristic of this community of people. As Rashid Khalidi explains in his book on Palestinian Identity: The Palestinians, of course, do have one asset in spite of everything: a powerful sense of national identity, which we have seen they were able to develop and maintain inspite of extradordinary vicissitudes."(205)
Are we going to deny the reader the facts because of the obstinate refusal of some editors to concede the use of the most appropriate term to describe the subject of this article? Wikipedia is not censored. If even one of the editors here responded to the request for a reliable scholarly source that refutes that Palestinians are a nation, I could have taken their opposition seriously. Unfortunately, this request has been repeatedly ignored and we have wasted everyone's time by entering into a circuituous debate that elides basic Wiki policies. Enough is enough. Provide a source that indicates that thers is a split in the scholarly community that warrants omitting nation from the lead. Failing that, I am unwilling to ignore facts to placate a fringe minority sensitivity. Tiamut 18:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- from Basque people (italics added): This article discusses the Basques as an ethnic group or, as some view them, a nation, in contrast to other ethnic groups living in the Basque area.
- from Catalans: The Catalans are an ethnic group or nationality whose homeland is Catalonia, or the Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: Catalunya, or Principat de Catalunya), which is a historical region in southern Europe, embracing a territory situated in the north-east of Spain and an adjoining portion of southern France.
- from Kurdish people: The Kurds are an ethnic group who are indigenous to a region often referred to as Kurdistan, an area that includes adjacent parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.
Never mind, never mind, I just looked over the sources and comments above. can we instead use the phrase "some sources claim" somewhere in the opening paragraph? Even palestinian sources disagree about use of the word "nation" as shown by moshein and others above. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 22:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
(ec) As you know, Steve, I prefer to play a facilitating rather than substantive role here. But I did glance at the Nexis newspaper database. Search for for {Palestinian w/1 nation} yields more than 3000 hits. So then these need to be evaluated. For instance, I see Intl Her Trib quoting Peres, Jer Post quoting Elazar Granot, everybody quoting various Arab leaders, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Said op-eds in Wash Post, etc. Lots of chaff to filter out (including using nation in the sovereign state meaning). A few sources that deny the descriptor, too. Anyway, plenty of data to shed light on this dispute in a very grounded and substantive manner. The work awaits. HG | Talk 22:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I've wrote some stuff from Khalidi's The Iron Cage into something I'dd like to add to this article in a new section The Palestinian people during the msndate:
-- JaapBoBo ( talk) 10:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. this talk page is quiet lately. however, no one has actually declared a consensus yet. do we have a coinsensus emerging yet or not? If so, we should request unprotection. if not, we should request mediation. I would prefer to obtain unprotection, and then go back to editing this the customary way; there can be contention, but there are established processes for allowing differeing opinions to gradually find agreed-upon text. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 20:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well I don't know if we've had some kind of meeting of minds that we're actually going to abide by NPOV, but if so, we can WP:ASF, drop the "nation" issue, and finally move on... <<-armon->> ( talk) 02:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm not one of the parties in the mediation, but I would like to have this page unprotected. Is that possible? -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 20:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Mediation rejated due to non-agreement by Armon. Armon, I'm not sure how that benefits anyone. could you please explain.
I am copying over a discussion by Armon from the mediation talk page. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 12:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I've rejected this because there's been more than enough discussion and the proponents of using WP voice to settle the matter is a clear violation of NPOV. I don't see the point of this because core WP policy is non-negotiable and the proponents of the violation should know that by now. This is really just wasting everybody's time. <<-armon->> ( talk) 06:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As one of the responders for Wikipedia:Third opinion, I have taken this request to respond to. But I will not offer a third opinion. This is for a couple of reasons, not the least of which that there is adequate, sustained debate between more than two people. So this dispute does not warrant a third opinion as I see it applying (if I am wrong please let me know and I will offer my opinion). Another problem I see with rendering a third opinion is that there is sufficient evidence that my opinion, regardless of which side it falls to, would be ignored. Both sides, and plenty of citations, have been presented but no one has tried to seek a middle ground. I don't have much hope that my feeble attempt would inspire what legions have failed to accomplish. And, last but not least, I don't think this is a solvable problem at our level. As has been noted above, this is akin to solving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict itself, which just isn't going to happen here. I must respectfully bow out of this debate. If you wish to repost on 3O feel free. I have had this argument before, both with people that agree with my point of view and with those that don't, and I've never seen anybody change their mind. I honestly can't see this getting resolved other than by WP decree or it actually being settled in reality. My apologies to those of you stuck in it's midst. Padillah ( talk) 13:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The current 3rd paragraph of the lead already does address the issue perfectly adequately, and neutrally. It states:
That is an example of showing, not telling. However, the faction demanding the insertion of POV either don't understand, or are not content, to abide by policy. <<-armon->> ( talk) 20:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Boy, has this gotten confusing. I just want to point out a few things:
Getting a little lost in the muddle here, but in response to Steve – yes, thanks, that's more or less it. "Nation" is amply supported both by the scholarly and historical literature (both on the concept of nations and nationalism generally and on Palestinian nationalism in particular), and appears to be denied only in a rhetorical and non-technical sense by political figures; as I've indicated in previous phases of this discussion, this denial of Palestinian nationhood – like the denial of Israeli statehood by various Arab figures, which is its mirror-image – appears to be encyclopedically notable but not encyclopedically reliable. But I don't think Padillah is talking at cross-purposes at all. We're both making the distinction between what's arguably justifiable for the lead, vs. what is necessary and wise, and opting for the latter; and we're both suggesting that this article ought to look to parallel articles such as French people, British people, etc. for a model; and we're both saying the lead should indicate its collective subject while deferring the discussion of "nation" as a term til later in the article.-- G-Dett ( talk) 21:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
First, I'd like to thank everyone that helped in this discussion. It was a little long and winding but it looks like we have two sides to an issue here so I'll try and sum them up for a vote. Either we accept the initial paragraph as it stands (quirkyness and all, difficult subjects make for difficult reading) or we submit a new lead to this talk page for discussion. I would encourage boldness but this subject is too controversial and this would only open the article up to endless edit wars (again). So, Same or Different and let's see if we can't come to an agreement. Padillah ( talk) 13:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Enter votes below. (enter any comments on process here in this section, if desired).
This proposed version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) would state: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
This proposed version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) would state: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
The current version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) states: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
I've been thinking a lot about G-Dett's argument regarding " guidelines on self-identifying terms". It clearly states that "Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name". With that in mind it's hard to refute referring to them as a nation. the guideline brings up a very valid point that not using "nation" because some people object to it is the POV situation. This seems to address the arguments against using "nation" and would free us up to continue editing the article with real content. I need solid refutation.
The Palestinian leaders have referred to themselves as a "Palestinian nation" so we are beholden to respect them and refer to them the same way. Do you think we could expand this attitude to encompass a state-of-being? Padillah ( talk) 20:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Just checking in to say I'm happy to see some movement here; we're lucky to have two skilled negotiators (HG and Padillah) and so many fair-minded editors (Iron Duke, Tiamut, Steve, 6SJ7, et al) – maybe collaboration here can be a model for other pages in the grip of similar disputes. I want to comment briefly on a couple points of fact and then let the discussion continue. Steve, "Palestine" is indeed recognized by the United Nations and has a representative there. They also have stamps, for what that's worth, and increasingly, "a country" (insofar as "Palestine" in common international parlance today refers to the West Bank and Gaza strip collectively, not only because these are commonly seen as comprising the legitimate future territory of a state, but also because this is where the Palestinians have their seats of local and national government). But – at the risk of repeating myself – when we measure their nation-ness by such criteria as stamps, uniforms, elected officials, territory and sovereignty and so on, we are blurring the conceptual distinction between nations and states, which is a crucial one for every major scholar of the subject.
Our central problem here seems to arise from the fact that "nation" has both a rigorously defined usage within scholarship and a loose and blurry vernacular currency. That the Palestinian people constitutes a "nation" according to the term's strict definition – which is sharply distinguished from that of "state" – is not contested by any reliable source I know of. Indeed, precisely because the birth of "nations" in the eyes of scholars and historians is seen as the product of modern political and historical contingencies, recent national formations such as those of Israelis and Palestinians are not borderline cases for inclusion but rather model paradigms ( Hobsbawm makes this point, as noted above). The vernacular sense of "nation" is however much more blurry and protean, as the definitions in "The Free Dictionary" (linked to by Iron Duke) suggest. I think it would not be an overstatement to say that every single instance of an editorial clash about Palestinian "nation"-hood on this talk page involves an editor using the term in its technical sense pitted against an editor using it in its vernacular sense.
A final comment about "self-identifying terms." The WP guideline would seem to apply here; indeed the example provided in the text of that guideline seems almost tailor-made to the terms of our dispute. But it's also important to realize that the term "nation" (I'm referring to its rigorously defined sense) is itself "self-identifying": as Hugh Seton-Watson put it (in a candidly tautological definition built upon by Anderson in his seminal book on nation-formation) , "A nation exists when a significant number of people in a community consider themselves to form a nation, or behave as if they formed one." With all due respect to IronDuke, there's nothing "willy-nilly" about this process of nation-formation; it requires national myths, national narratives, a national discourse and a national image, and it requires institutions (media institutions, most importantly) to disseminate all these. It is in short as measurable and documentable as the process of state-formation, and in the Palestinian case, the process has been copiously measured, documented, and analyzed.-- G-Dett ( talk) 18:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
If only this were the German Wikipedia, we could have Volksgemeinschaft—national community and Staatsgemeinschaft—state community. Nations are both peoples and states in English and realistically one can only try to insure that edits imply the proper flavor. To that end, you might consider referring to a potential Palestinian country as "Palestinian nation-state" whereas "Palestinian nation" then unambiguously refers to the people. — PētersV ( talk) 21:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Padillah that resolution of this issue will be easier if we can decide whether the self-identifying guideline applies. However, I think I disagree with G-Dett that the guideline is "tailor-made" to our dispute. From what I can tell, the guideline applies to the "name" of an entity, such as Japan, and certain self-identifying terms, such as Japanese. But what about other descriptors of the person or entity? For instance, if a deceased person had publicly self-identified as Heterosexual, does our guideline apply despite reliable sources that contest their identity? What about if a person identified as non-white or white, guilty or not guilty, pro-Israel, etc.? If a group denies that it's a "cult," does the guideline respect that self-identification? If a group claims to be a religion or a scientific body, does the guideline apply? Again, from what I can tell, the guideline itself applies only to a name. Perhaps they name themselves the "Sioux Nation" (IDK), but here 'nation' is being advanced as a descriptor, not as a name. (Right?) So, I would want to see a lucid argument (with [[WP:RS|evidence) such as either (1) "nation" is a self-identifying term, for the Palestinians, that like Japanese is a "key statement of an entity's own identity" (Guideline quote) or (2) the guideline shows Wikipedia support for an underlying principle of identity self-determination, which may apply by extension to "nation" for Palestinians. Otherwise, I'm wondering if the principle should not apply in this instance. Hope this is useful. Thanks. HG | Talk 21:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Eric Lynn Wright (September 7, 1963–March 26, 1995), better known by the stage name Eazy-E, was an American rapper, producer, and record executive who came straight outta Compton. Ruthless was his style as a juvenile; he was a brother who would smother your mother, and make your sister think he loved her.
G-Dett says above, "they constitute a collective entity – whatever term one chooses for it, a people, a nation, a polity, whatever, as opposed to a semi-random assemblage of Arab persons". Is there anyone who disagrees with the fact that the Palestinian people are a collective entity, and if so, on what basis are they *not* a collective entity? And if they *are* a collective entity, what is the best reliably sourced term to designate this collective entity if not "nation"? -- MPerel 03:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Chairman,
In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
Yitzhak Rabin.
Prime Minister of Israel.
(outdent) Really, 6SJ7, why? I try to be careful with my analogies, and to avoid the facile Chomskian reductio ad absurdum. This analogy seems to me pretty exact, pretty symmetrical, and to track the whole logic of the peace process from Oslo forward – i.e., Palestinian recognition of Israel's existence (and right to exist) in exchange for Israeli recognition that the Palestinians constitute a people with legitimate political aspirations. At any rate, I'm certainly not the first to make it. Here's Julie Burchill, onetime journalist for the Guardian, writing about the "new antisemitism." Burchill resigned from the Guardian in protest at what she saw as pervasive anti-Israel bias crossing over into antisemitism:
Were you outraged when Golda Meir claimed there were no Palestinians? You should be equally outraged at the insinuation that Jews are not a nation. Those who denounce Zionism sometimes explain Israel's policies as a product of its Jewish essence. In their view, not only should Israel act differently, it should cease being a Jewish state. Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights.
-- G-Dett ( talk) 03:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it's not surprising that the editors who were pushing for "nation" like the "compromise" of "a people" because it's pushing the same POV. The problem is, you can't split the difference between POV and neutral and still wind up with neutral. Given the different POVs on the subject, I've yet to see an even halfway compelling reason for us to take sides. <<-armon->> ( talk) 20:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I have no idea what you're talking about Armon and I'm kind of surprised you didn't bring up whatever point it is you're trying to make in the lengthy discussions previous. What I do know is that Rashid Khalidi, an expert source, is cited in the article as saying that the identities of "Arab", "Palestinian" and so forth have been and are coexistant with one another among many Palestinians.
Further, I can't imagine why you would think that this compromise is one I like. It's not at all what I was advocating for. Based on reliable, scholarly sources, I wanted to see the term nation in the lede. This solution doesn't do that. All it does is add an indefinitive particle, transforming the generic usage of people to a specific collective noun (also based, thanks to G-Dett's rigorous scholarship, on reliable sources).
You are now standing in the way of consensus without offering a compelling policy-based rationale for your non-adherence to this key Wikipedia policy. That's against the very spirit of WP:CONSENSUS (I keep wikilinking because I'm hoping you'll actually read it.) Please, once again, reconsider your position, for the sake of the project. That's what I did. This solution is much, much less than what I think is appropriate, but those proposing it have made strong, policy-based, source-based, and common sense arguments as to why its the best workable solution. Tiamut 13:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
'If there be one fact in the world perfectly clear it is this:'That the disposition of the people of America is wholly averse to any other than a free government';' E Burke, ' Letter to the Sherriffs of Bristol,' in Speeches on the American War, ed.A.J.George, Boston 1907 p.204
I think that to use the term 'nation' would be 'undue weight'. The term has a connotation of a people as an organic body, and it is usually used in a nationalistic context. In the opening sentence, which gives a definition of the subject of the article, surely we should apply a NPOV, and avoid this term. I propose:
This text also distinghuishes between people (singular) and people (plural). -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 22:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello folks. Ok, I am requesting unprotection. I assume that with a perfectly serviceable consensus, we now have enough reason to unprotect it. if anyone chooses to disrupt this consensus, this would be the perfect time to test the system. Since we now have a major ArbCom case under way, this seems like the perfect time to test the ability of Wikipedia's system to uphold a consensus which was fairly arrived at. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 20:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
If there is a consensus, the problem still remains that sometimes a consensus can be for the wrong thing. I'll just leave you guys with cites that show that the phrase is problematic. I shouldn't have to, but I suppose I'd better make the disclaimer that these do not necessarily reflect my personal opinion. I'll add more as I find them. <<-armon->> ( talk) 23:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In the new found spirit of brotherhood I would like to chime in. A good job was done in finding some compromise, but I hate to say that unless an open-ended formula can be found; even if we should all agree to the compromise; who is to say, that tomorrow someone won't arrive from Mars and/or Venus and start all over. They say that a sucker is born every day; similarly I would say that a Wikipidian editor is born every ...
I think that all options should be put on the table and let's analyze all of them; maybe just maybe we can come to some sort of an understanding.
First off I think that Armon has done a splendid job of trying to find reliable sources which state the Israeli POV. I think that Golda Meir, Yitzhak Shamir and Benjamin Natanyahu represent fairly the opinion of most Israelis, and it would be unfair to dismiss them as terrorist, blind or stupid. That the Israeli government in the last 10 years called them "Palestinian people" is in no way proof of what they really think; because as I have numerous times mentioned, that the Israeli people desperately want peace, and their government at the very minimum will give lip service and say what the Palestinians want to hear, because semantics is just a small price to pay; it is land which is the more difficult nut to crack. As for President Bush; does anyone really expect him to be more Israeli then Israel itself? Why shouldn't he say so for the same above reasons?
So far G-Dett tried finding fault in every source that Armon brought; but in all honesty, does anyone doubt that this is what the Israelis think? Three Prime Ministers isn't enough? Also he is sitting by a computer and G-Dett is sitting in a library (I'm jealous); so imagine if he or I had the time to sort out all the books on this subject and finally find what everyone must accept as a reliable source; are we then finished? It was admitted on these pages that this is what Israeli's think; but it was dismissed as fringe. So the question which HG has put forth is; what is fringe? There are so many things and factors to be sorted out if we should ever get to the bottom of this, and I think it's worth at least a try. It has been suggested that Armon is a lone holdout; so I would like to remind everybody that I agree with him and there are many others who agree with him too but have taken a back seat for now.
With all this in mind I'm open minded enough, to recognize the perspectives of other people and again in a spirit of harmony, I kindly request that we spell out all opinions and get to the bottom of this; not on what is true but on what is the best and fairest way of writing it which includes all perspectives. Itzse ( talk) 22:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
That the Israeli government in the last 10 years called them "Palestinian people" is in no way proof of what they really think; because as I have numerous times mentioned, that the Israeli people desperately want peace, and their government at the very minimum will give lip service and say what the Palestinians want to hear, because semantics is just a small price to pay; it is land which is the more difficult nut to crack. As for President Bush; does anyone really expect him to be more Israeli then Israel itself? Why shouldn't he say so for the same above reasons?
I have unprotected the page. If the agreement does not hold, then the page will be protected again. Woody ( talk) 20:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} How did the explanation of Gevlin get deleted from this article? Look at the history; it used to say:
In an interview conducted by The Sunday Times on June 15, 1969, Golda Meir was party to the following exchange: [22]
Q:Do you think the emergence of the Palestinian fighting forces, the Fedayeen, is an important new factor in the Middle East?
A:Important, no. A new factor, yes. There was no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the first world war and then it wa a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country from them. They did not exist.
The use of the above quote as a proof that there was the belief among Israelis that there were no Palestinians is disputed. Gelvin says that Meir was neither denying indigenous Palestinian people nor the existence of the Palestinian nation. Rather, her remarks are directed at the Fedayeen's causing of the nation to exist. [22] Gelvin states that while Meir's “assertion that a Palestinian nation did not exist until after 1967 war is absurd, the sketch she provides of the historical nationalism that engendered that nation—and her implicit understanding of the unpredictable and conditional evolution of nationalism in general—is, in the main, accurate.” [22]
Somehow, somebody deleted the reliable and cited explanation of Gevlin. I will assume good faith that it, together with the unexplained bolding of some of Meir's quote that does not appear in the original, as an accident on some of the editor's parts. I am certain that nobody would want to deliberately hide reliable and cited information, or inappropriately emphasize sections of statements, solely to push one point or another; for all we all not bound by the same policies? Regardless, as soon as the protection is lifted, the deleted material must be restored and the improper emphasis must be removed. -- Avi ( talk) 16:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Avi, Padillah. I removed the Gold Meir section in title=Palestinian_people&diff=147559126&oldid=147556935 this edit after there had been discussion raised on the talk page regarding it's length, relevance and accuracy. I responded to those concerns by removing it and no one objected. I now notice that since then another editor has added her statement, without the accompanying explanation by Gelvin.
I think considering the differing viewpoints on her statement (Gelvin's isn't the only one to be sure - there are many who claim she meant what she said and that this position represents the Israeli denialist position) it's better to leave her statement out of the article altogether, since we cannot give space to discuss all those different interpretations in this article and no one of them is authoritative. Perhaps, the material is better included in an article on Golda Meir herself? Respect. Tiamut —Preceding comment was added at 13:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Padillah. I'm not really the yelling type (though I have lost my cool a few times when faced with what I thought were intrenchably POV positions or edits). You seem like a good faith editor and I've appreciated your mediation efforts here on the issue of nation, even though it didn't go the way I had hoped.
About the Meir quote, I think we can safely take it out without changing anything. It would read as follows:
The identity of Palestinians has been a point of contestation with Israel.Golda Meir expounded the early position in her famous remark that:
'It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.'[35]
The British historian Eric Hobsbawn allows that an element of justness can be discerned in skeptical outsider views that dismiss the propriety of using the term 'nation' to peoples like the Palestinians: such language arises often as the rhetoric of an evolved minority out of touch with the larger community that lacks this modern sense of national belonging. But at the same time, he argues, this outsider perspective has tended to
'overlook the rise of mass national identification when it did occur, as Zionist and Israeli Jews notably did in the case of the Palestinian Arabs.'[36]
From 1948 through until the 1980’s, according to Eli Podeh, professor at Hebrew University, the textbooks used in Israeli schools tried to disavow a unique Palestinian identity, referring to 'the Arabs of the land of Israel' instead of 'Palestinians.' Israeli textbooks now widely use the term 'Palestinians.' Podeh believes that Palestinian textbooks of today resemble those from the early years of the Israeli state.[37]
What do you (and others) think? Tiamut 15:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with those who say we should move quickly. We've gotten where we are through a model consensus-building discussion, one that redounds to the credit of all involved and and is a good harbinger for future collaboration. We should all commit to working together to make this a great article. Padillah and Tiamut are already discussing copy-edit and substantive changes they'd like to make; the page needs to open now when there is a high tide of good will and intellectual momentum.
Armon has raised two eleventh-hour objections to "a people": (i) given that in some instances "people" is a synonym for "nation," any objections raised regarding the latter apply ipso facto to the former; and (ii) given that part of the rationale for "a people" is the guideline on self-identifying terms, then we have to consider the views of Islamists within the Palestinian polity, who Armon says don't believe in the idea of a Palestinian people.
Both propositions seem to me self-evidently specious, but if other editors require refutation I'm happy to provide it.
Incidentally, add President Bush to the consensus. Pro-Palestinian neo-Chomskyian uber-leftist antisemitic Islamofascist Arafat-lovin' loony that he is, Bush referred to "the Palestinian people" three times in a five-minute speech today in Jerusalem:
Actually, Gelvin appears to be wrong -at least according to Meir herself:
Are they a "nation", "a people" (an individual people), or "Arab people" of Palestine who are part of the Arab people/nation, or "all people" originating from Palestine? What are the sources for these opinions?
The first and last we all agree to. It is all those positions in the middle which need to be presented in a NPOV and needs to be hammered out, as to what is a significant opinion and what is fringe; what does significant mean and what does fringe mean.
Obviously we disagree with each other on this; but in a spirit of harmony; how much is everybody willing to compromise? Some editors have already made some compromises here, but we need to hear from everyone; otherwise tomorrow someone else is going to come along and start POV warring again. Itzse ( talk) 23:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
refactored after; unduly harsh and somewhat personal, my apologies < eleland/ talk edits> 02:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
> Itzse. That contradicts manifestly Israel's Law of Return (1950), and the wording of the Balfour Declaration, in its endeavour to create discursive parity at the expense of history. What you evidently mean is 'which was created in Palestine for Jews (and not, 'created for Jews in Palestine') Nishidani ( talk) 14:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)' State of Israel, which was created for the Palestinian Jews'.
Palestinian doesn't have any other meaning today, it might have had a hundred years ago, which should of course be mentioned somewhere. Funkynusayri ( talk) 01:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, sorry to butt in here, but "striving to have a state of their own" doesn't cover all people who identify as part of the Palestinian people either. Some don't support the idea of states at all, some want a state with Jews, and while these may be minority groups, they are still part of the Palestinian people.
I don't see the need to change the first sentence. The next two paragraphs in the introduction deal with subject is a more nuanced fashion. This seems a little redundant and over-politicized for an article on a people. True, politics is big part of their identity, but that's not what Palestinians should be reduced to. There are people after all, some of whom couldn't care less about politics or a future state, but do identify as culturally Palestinian. Let's try and remember that this is article is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Tiamut 01:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
This is just a way of gauging where we stand, not an attempt to close the issue. Please use only your signature in the numbered sections; comments can go below.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab nation by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should be written in accordance with this view. The belief by some that there is a Palestinian nation or a people is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a dubious or discredited theory only.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab people; not as a separate people. The article should in essence treat them as such; but the belief by some that it has already developed an individual identity should not be ignored. They shouldn't be described as a separate people in the lead; but the article as a whole should reflect such a belief.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab people; not as a separate people. The article should in essence treat them as such; but the belief by some that it is in the process of developing an individual identity as a people should not be ignored. They shouldn't be described as a separate people in the lead; but the article as a whole should reflect such a development.
Palestinians are regarded by some as a (separate) nation or a people, but there is much controversy on this point. The article should not use these terms except in attributed quotes or paraphrases of sources. (Edited by 6SJ7 to improve clarity: "separate" added, in parentheses.)
Palestinians are widely regarded as a nation or a people. The article should, in essence, treat them as such, but it should not ignore the notable point-of-view which expresses concern about the correct way to accurately describe their existence. They may be described as a nation or people in the lead, but the article as a whole should reflect discussion on this topic and on this set of concerns.
Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should treat them as such and they may be described as a nation or people in the lead. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a minority theory only.
Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should be written in accordance with this view. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a dubious or disputed or discredited theory only.
Per the NPOV tutorial we shouldn't be stating a political POV categorically. We don't need to take a position, but rather, let the facts speak for themselves. There was a time when there was clearly no Palestinian nation/people and there are differing definitions of Palestine and Palestinians. However, the current political consensus is that there is "a Palestinian people" in the sense of a polity or body politic, and that there should be a future Palestinian state. The article should simply trace that development without attempting to adjudicate the conflict.
(Write-in vote; please briefly state your position, and copy the current text below, so others will know where to place write-ins.)
I really think that "1" is correct; but as a compromise, I'll go with "2". Itzse ( talk) 21:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my write in suggestion - "Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should treat them as such and they may be described as a nation or people in the lead. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a minority theory only" - I am trying to suggest basically option six *but* if comments made by people such as Golda Meir or Ben Gurion are to be mentioned somewhere in the article, they should not be presented as dubious or discredited. That is not to say, however, that they need be given equal weight to the more widely accepted view, especially as the main proponents of the view that the Palestinians are not a nation or people appear to be only sources who are clearly partisan (if anyone finds less partisan sources then I'll happily take that back) and they appear to be views which are no longer expressed even by significant partisan sources (such as Israeli Prime Ministers - again I am open to correction). Suggesting or appearing to suggest that statements from people such as Ben Gurion are discredited would at the very least appear to be POV to some. Hobson ( talk) 22:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I find Armon's option #8 to be confusing; he seems to be stating that since the "People"-hood of Palestinians is politically controversial, the fact is thus in dispute, and Wikipedia should not state it as a fact. I don't understand why this should be so. Evolution is politically controversial, the effectiveness of condoms in preventing HIV is politically controversial, etc. Heck, in the Israeli-Palestinian realm there are Muslims who claim that Jerusalem is not holy to Jews, and vice versa. A political controversy alone does not invalidate the findings of scholars. I've yet to see a current scholarly source which states that the Palestinians are not now a people or nation. Some (mostly extremist) political sources, sure. And if you read scholars, even conservative pro-Israel scholars (such as JCPA fellows) incorrectly, or quote them out of context, you can draw a "Palestinians do not exist" conclusion. But I'm just not seeing any difference of opinion in the scholarly sources, so asking us to "assert facts about opinions," in my view, conflates "opinions" with "the firm consensus of all reliable scholarly sources." < eleland/ talk edits> 23:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I "voted" for "4" but first edited it slightly. I don't think I changed its meaning. I just added the word "separate" which also appears in 1, 2, and 3. Maybe it is implied in the rest, but I wanted to make that clear. I could have made it a write-in, but I thought that would be too confusing, and I thought nobody would disagree with my edit. (An expectation that, sadly, seldom proves correct on Wikipedia, but we shall see.) A few other comments; unlike HG, I do not think "4" is unworkable. In fact, I think it is essentially the version that was protected for almost a month, which I didn't have a problem with. I also am not sure what the difference is between "4" and Armon's "8", with which I basically agree as well. 6SJ7 ( talk) 02:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
moved belowLet's see where we stand. Here is the text that I think is being presented as a consensus, or at least a compromise: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people..." I believe that Tiamut, 6SJ7 and various others are willing to accept this wording, even if it's not their first choice. I'm a bit less clear about Armon. Maybe you're willing to live with it, Armon, but you also want to be able to register your analysis that the wording still reflects a POV. Is that right? Plus, it sounds like we should try to add some sense of stability to the agreement (if there is to be one), e.g, that none of the agreeing parties would try to re-edit the text for, say, 6 months. Is this helpful at all?
HG |
Talk
05:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I noticed this on the Jew page: "The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism, the traditional faith of the Jewish nation". Ok, so what makes Jews a nation, apart from having a state which the majority of Jews doeesn't even live in, more of a "nation" than the Palestinians? From everything I've read, Jews were considered a "nation" even before they created Israel, and in fact, following the logic of Itzse and others, only Israelis, not Jews as a whole, should be considered a nation. What applies here should apply there too, but I bet I would be accused of "anti-semitism" if I removed the word "nation" from there.
The fact that the use of "nation" on that page isn't even sourced, but is fiercely demanded to be sourced here, reeks of hypocrisy. Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If "nation" is not to be used here, it should be removed from there too. Otherwise, give some good arguments aganst it. Funkynusayri ( talk) 05:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read and taken part in the previous discussions here about the use of "nation", and that's exactly why I'm bringing this up, as the arguments used against apply to the use of "nation" on the Jew page too. Funkynusayri ( talk) 18:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
As for Palestinians being "an extension of Arabs", again, so are the people of Austria and Lichtenstein in relation to the German people, yet they have their own nation-states. I do not see any dissimilarities, apart from the fact that Palestinians are, as a group, even more ethnically homogeneous than Jews are today.
Sm, this "whole issue" has only been reopened because I noticed the wording on the Jew page yesterday, otherwise I would had brought it up long ago. My whole point is that this expresses an obvious double standard, and places the discussion of "nation" here on another level.
And Itzse, what do you mean by "speaks volumes"? I could say exactly the same about your denial of Palestinians as a nation. And what is the purpose of this: "I think you should try to denigrate every nation on Wikipedia; so maybe finally, an argument will be made that if they are a nation then we are also a nation. If you can't pull yourself up; then pull others down, to equalize the playing field". As far as I'm concerned, you're denigrating the Palestinian nation. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
"The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate Document, and everything based upon them are deemed null and void. The claim of historical or religious ties between Jews and Palestine does not tally with historical realities, nor with the constituents of statehood in their true sense. Judaism, in its character as a religion, is not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Jews are not one people with an independent identity. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong."
"The claim of historical or religious ties between Arabs and Palestine does not tally with historical realities, nor with the constituents of statehood in their true sense. Palestinians, are not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Arabs are not one people with an independent identity. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong!!!"
"The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty to repulse the Zionist, imperialist invasion from the great Arab homelands and to eliminate the Zionist presence front Palestine. Its full responsibilities fall upon the Arab nation, peoples and governments, with the Palestinian Arab people at their head. For this purpose, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, material and spiritual capacities to participate actively with the people of Palestine in the liberation of Palestine. They must, especially in the present stage of armed Palestinian revolution, grant and offer the people of Palestine all possible help and every material and human support, and afford it every sure means and opportunity enabling it to continue to assume its vanguard role in pursuing its armed revolution until the liberation of its homeland."
This entire debate not only doesn't belong on this talk page, but cannot possibly do anyything but make the process of establishing a consensus even harder. If the Jew article is wrong, take it there. Clearly, the Wikipedia article on Jew is not a source for this article. Hobson ( talk) 02:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It does talk of a people: to repeat, it says: "grant and offer THE people of Palestine all possible help and every material and human support, and afford IT every sure means and opportunity enabling IT to continue to assume ITS vanguard role in pursuing ITS armed revolution until the liberation of ITS homeland." "It"= singular pronoun; thus, they are talking about "a people" in the singular.
re my fairness to both sides. I'll try to be fairer to Israel from now on. Did you hear that, everybody? thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 21:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"Article 8. The Palestinian people IS at the stage of national struggle for the liberation of ITS homeland." (emphasis added.)
-- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 22:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Article 15. ... The full responsibility for this belongs to the peoples and governments of the Arab nation and to the Palestinian people first and foremost..."
Padillah ( talk) 17:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Palestinians refer to the Palestinan people who inhabited Palestine before the British insersion of people of jewish religion but different races and nationalities. Palestinians are Arabs ( Arabs are the people who descend from Abraham through his son Ishmael and they speak Arabic language) Palestinians are the most homogenous arab people in having haplogroup J1 ( the lineage of Abraham). hpe that will help in your dilemma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
"It is extremely striking that the same editors who say that the "Palestinians" are the perfect example of a nation; and that never before has there been a better example of what a nation is; are exactly the same editors who are the first to argue that the Jewish people aren't a nation."
First of all, no one has claimed that Palestinians "are the perfect example of a nation", just as no one is "the first to argue that Jews are not a nation".
What I said however, is that labeling Palestinians as a nation is as valid as labeling Jews a nation. The natural consequence of this is that anyone arguing against the nationhood of Palestinians is arguing against the nationhood of Jews, and many other self-proclaimed nations of the world.
Yet the people who do this ignore that problem on all those other pages. That's all. Just putting things into context. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's see where we stand. Here is the text that I think is being presented as a consensus, or at least a compromise: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people..." I believe that Tiamut, 6SJ7 and various others are willing to accept this wording, even if it's not their first choice. I'm a bit less clear about Armon. Maybe you're willing to live with it, Armon, but you also want to be able to register your analysis that the wording still reflects a POV. Is that right? Plus, it sounds like we should try to add some sense of stability to the agreement (if there is to be one), e.g, that none of the agreeing parties would try to re-edit the text for, say, 6 months. Is this helpful at all? HG | Talk 05:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, let's move on.-- G-Dett ( talk) 21:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
So, here is the compromise text (already in place for a week):
From what I can tell, this text is a consensus insofar as it's a compromise involving the following editors recently on Talk here (alphabetical): Armon, CasualObserver'48, Eleland, Funkynusayri ,G-Dett, Hobson, Itzse, MPerel, Nishidani, 6SJ7, Steve, Tiamut, with facilitation by Padillah. (Note: The compromise is not necessarily anyone's first choice, but no party is trying to block consensus either. I assume that some folks will still want to clarify the editorial position, options above, to support further use of "a people" in the article. Also, so far nobody objected to the suggestion that the compromise stand for at least 6 months.) So, with appreciations dispersed widely to all parties, thanks. HG | Talk 02:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I still think there's a fundamental problem with "a people" because, as is clear from the #7 position, it is an attempt to settle the issue in favour of the POV that they are a "nation". Despite the attempts to dismiss the evidence I've presented that it is a disputed concept, there hasn't actually been any good evidence, only assertions, that it is "a dubious or disputed or discredited theory only." That position is also a strawman. Nobody disputes that there are people called "Palestinians". What is disputed is that they constitute a distinct nation separate from other Arabs. I can live with the consensus/compromise wording for now, however, I think that if we don't abide by policy, we are going to continually have these sorts of conflicts. I think this question may have to go before the task force being set up after the arbcom. <<-armon->> ( talk) 00:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Palestinians refer to the Palestinan people who inhabited Palestine before the British insersion of people of jewish religion but different races and nationalities. Palestinians are Arabs ( Arabs are the people who descend from Abraham through his son Ishmael and they speak Arabic language) Palestinians are the most homogenous arab people in having haplogroup J1 ( the lineage of Abraham). hpe that will help in your dilemma.16:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
If 9 million people say they are a nation, then it does not stop at you to decide to put the word nation next to palestinians , especially if we take into consideration that you are are enemy of the palestinians or an Israeli, right? definition of what nation means differ between schools of thoughts, and those nine million people don't have to conform to your own theory which is hidden in your mind.better yet spell what constitute a nation and well show you they are a nation. Palestinians lived in their country before they were kicked out of it in 1948 and after bloody fight with their ancient crusader enemy the British (Richard Lionheart). They are the most homogenous DNA ancestry ( highest J1 among Arabs with low diversity in haplotype (NEbet et al 2000), they are even the most homogenous ancestry nation not among other countries but among the world nations! They have their own dialect, they have their special religious schools ( Al Aqsa Mosque and associated schools from 1000 years ago) they have their trade mark cousins ( Aka Cheese, Nablus cheese, Nablus Halva, Jafa orange, famous around the arabic world and beyond, their DNA proved to be in the land since time immemorial, the names of their villages never changed since pre biblical times ( such as Kfar, Beit, etc), they have the heritage of the three religions came from their land since they are the obvious descendents of ancient jews early christians, and canaanites, they are famous in using stones since david. the legacy of interest in sorcerer effect in Samaria ( Nablus and Lud and Ramlah since before Samaritans (Samaria was the name of the area in 1700 BC! and with the same reputatiopn till now!) what else do you want as proofs, should we conform to Mr Lewis or some other never-had -a -nation-for a long-time -person? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I had answered you with:Two points. 1) It doesn't in fact run completely counter to all sources -there are obviously those who disagree with idea. 2) As a matter of fact, my personal opinion on the matter isn't to say there is no such thing, but that's not the point and it wouldn't matter if it were.
Writing the narative with the point of view that you have just expounded; excludes the other persective and violates NPOV. Are you saying that another POV doesn't exist because there are numerous sources expounding your POV? As for Israel's, the United States, Western Europe and the United Nations motives for giving lip service to the Palestinian POV on this issue; please see the numerous discussions that already took place to explain them. Don't forget; Countries aren't scholars, countries aren't linguists; countries only have interests; and you tell me what they are!
I appreciate the arguments you two are trying to make but I would feel more comfortable if we didn't bring real-world race into the picture. First of it gives me the screaming willies to classify a person by race. Other than as a physical description I have yet to see it done objectively. Second, it's very difficult to not take these types of references personally. I'm sure you guys are wonderful people but feelings get hurt and text is not the most subtle communication medium... the whole exercise if fraught with peril (now I sound like a movie tagline). Lastly, I'm not convinced the inclusion of "X" number of people bequeaths "nationhood" anyway so the whole point is moot. You are more than welcome to continue (it is a free... whatever) but I really don't think it's a good idea. Padillah ( talk) 20:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Article 6: "The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians."
Yes, Itsze, you are a Palestinian. Congratulations!!!!!I congratulate you upon your new-found identity.
I assume that one of your first acts as a Palestinian will be to assert that there is a Palestinian people? After all, if you are a Palestinian, you must surely wish for your people to be recognized. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 21:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
So here you have it; if you honestly study the Palestinian charter you will see that they aren't claiming a Palestinian people; mind you a nation. It is claiming Palestine for the Arabs and in particular, it is claiming a Palestinian identity which excludes Jews, with rights to its homeland. That Palestinian identity (not a Palestinian people) is explicitly stated in article 4, belongs only to Palestinian Arabs and is transmitted to their descendents as belonging to the "Palestinian community" again carefully not calling them a people. Here is article 4:In fact, the first Article of the PLO Charter makes it clear that ‘Palestinian people’ are ordinary Arabs: “Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation”4 (italic by author). Confirmation that the charter adopted by the 4th PNC in 1968 does in fact say this, is here
Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from fathers to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.
"The Palestinians are those Arab nationals"; is that good enough for you? Itzse ( talk) 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father- whether in Palestine or outside it- is also a Palestinian.
With all due respect, I think this WP:OR soapboxing has gone on long enough. Either make a specific suggestion about what to add to the article to represent the viewpoint you wish to have represented (i.e. actually make or propose an edit) or drop it. It's gotten way past offensive into the purely ridiculous now. Excuse the frankness, but really! Tiamut talk 00:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Smart
Itzke: 9 million people point of view is not POV!
Also you did not reveal the secret formula for becoming a nation ( I mentioned some:cousines, schools, dialect palestinians, throwing stones on israeli soldiers etc)of course palestinians have more formula for being a nation (just tell us your secret formula) but if 9 million people say they are a nation I think that is enough. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Adnanmuf (
talk •
contribs)
05:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus you say (Millions of my ancestors lived in the Holy land until a few hundred years after the destruction of the Second Temple. ) how do we know that what you say is true? what evidence do you have that those Israelites were your ancestor? The recent DNA studies prove that 90% of jews and or israelies are NOT J1 haplogroup of the Israelites (found 60% in the Cohanim with CMH!) so you are much much more likely not really a descendent of those people. Those people followed Jesus and became christians ( half of jews became followers of jesus) and stayed in the land as christians and some also became muslims. The palestinians have 80% of J1 and they are the descendedts of Abraham ( like CMH haplogroup) and many palestinians are descendents of Isaac and Ishmael. You are not and you are not included in the promise too( of the bible), The semitic Law of Return 1950 was based on evidence of jewish mother or jewish grandmother, however recent DNA studies proved that overwhelming majority of mtDNA of jewish women are NOT from the middle east. So the Israelis are illegal according to the Law of return( got their visas illegally) plus they entered the land without approval of the Palestinian authorities.05:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
It's one thing to disagree with specific language in the text. It's one thing to disagree with some specific interpretation or application of policy. It's another to argue against essentially every relevant reliable source, from academic journals through newspapers and magazines to casual statements by public figures. They all talk about "Palestinians," and they use the word to to mean an Arab nation with origins in that portion of the Levant which was known as "the British Mandate of Palestine" (excepting that portion which was broken off into the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in 1946). Thirty-year-old declarations by Israeli politicians, columns in community newspapers reporting the opinions of Judeo-fundamentalist extremists, and scholarly essays which use the term "Palestinian" to refer to an Arab local identity, but dissent from specific aspects of the Palestinian national narrative, have no relevance in the face of such an overwhelming mainstream consensus.
Editors who feel that this consensus is incorrect, inappropriate, immoral or even unholy are welcome to their opinions. They are not welcome to argue, endlessly and vehemently, the righteousness of their opinions in every relevant forum. Please stop. < eleland/ talk edits> 07:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Did you say this ( from academic journals through newspapers and magazines to casual statements by public figures. They all talk about "Palestinians," and they use the word to to mean an Arab nation ) then they are a nation, lets move on!07:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't take the word of nobody of those but only the palestinians themselves ( meaning the 9 million people I told you about) do they say they are a nation or not?07:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
The following piece in "DNA clues" is very long and irrelevant:
{One point in which Palestinians and Ashkenazi Jews and most Near Eastern Jewish communities appear to contrast is in the proportion of sub-Saharan African gene types which have entered their gene pools. One study found that Palestinians and some other Arabic-speaking populations — Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouins — have what appears to be substantial gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, amounting to 10-15% of lineages within the past three millennia.[119] In a context of contrast with other Arab populations not mentioned, the African gene types are rarely shared, except among Yemenites, where the average is actually higher at 35%.[119] Yemenite Jews, being a mixture of local Yemenite and Israelite ancestries[120], are also included in the findings for Yemenites, though they average a quarter of the frequency of the non-Jewish Yemenite sample.[119] Other Middle Eastern populations, particularly non-Arabic speakers — Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeris, and Georgians — have few or no such lineages.[119] The findings suggest that gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa has been specifically into Arabic-speaking populations (including at least one Arabic-speaking Jewish population, as indicated in Yemenite Jews), possibly due to the Arab slave trade. Other Near Eastern Jewish groups (whose Arabic-speaking heritage was not indicated by the study) almost entirely lack haplogroups L1–L3A, as is the case with Ashkenazi Jews. The sub-Saharan African genetic component of Ethiopian Jews and other African Jewish groups were not contrasted in the study, however, independent studies have shown those Jewish groups to be principally indigenous African in origin}
this study (Gene flow in Arabs} is old and is based on the premise that since Jewish women don't have that L1-L3 mtDNA haplogroup, then it must have come to Arabs in post first temple destruction and even after conversion of women into judaism to marry Jewish Yemenite men !( Huh). This is stupid, since that premise it self needs lots of scientific study to prove it in the first place ( ie jewish women are the same jewish women upon the start of Diaspoa), secondly the recent studies especially from 2004-2007 had proved that Jewish women are in the overwhelming majority from Europpean and not of middle eastern origin (such current jewish maternal haplogroups as Haplogroup K1 and H1, J1, etc) contrary to ME women who are ( and were in the ancient past) preHV and L and N. Hence since the premise is faulty and that the L1-L3 are ancient haplogroups of the Middle East ( semitic areas like Arabian countries and Ethiopia who are both not sub saharan! This gene flow study actually works well to prove that jewish women lack this middle eastern Haplogroup L ( that has to stay in till the present in them/ At any rate this is not its place, since we are talking about the palestinians, I will remove this piece, especially that it is racist, Haplogroup N ( african) is found in Europe and is considered ancient in Europe even though it is mainly African, and so L1-L3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
As I promised I cut the section that talks about gene flow from Africa, since it is irrelevant racist, and NOT true: The study was based on faulty premise, and L1-L3 are now considered of the pool of Middle Eastern women ( past and present (check genographic project at National Geographic)and very ancient in the middle East as well as africa ( like many other mtDNA haplogroups) However jews lacking it is an indication they did not originate from the middle East. The other paragraph I cut is about a study about rare disease that cause child deafness ( caused by a gene) and found greatly in Ashkenasim but also in some palestinians and also many other nations ( chinese for example). The study conducted in Palestine found the gene in both Palestinians and Ashkenazim study subjects ( which did not include people from other nations) but did not check the gene in other populations! also a one gene is not an indication of relatedness between the two ( you need haplogroup or haplotype similarities ( haplotype is usually SIX different mutations)
This study was only referenced as proof of ashkenazim relatedness to Palestine only in one web site of Ultra orthodox Rabbi in Australia (foundationstone--not scientific site that including other stupid similar conclusions on other studies) and was refernced from the rabbi in only one web site ( also non scientific)( Khazaria.com) by Beit Or who ( works in both in Khazaria and wiki-palestinians!) There is no relation between the palestinians and jews in the first place to look for differences in african gene.! abubakr ( talk) 06:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I told you already! the section about deafness in children: go the study itself ( referenced by the khazaria guy) and see for yourself. I read it, it found that a gene is found in both israeli and palestinians and the article says that the disease is found in many OTHER nations!!!, and the study did not check the gene in those other nations!!!. and the study was not about a relation between the two people but about the disease( which is important to ashkenazim because it is hereditary caused by closed herd genetics. The study as it speaks for itself does not say that it is evidence that they are related.
As for the second study about (gene flow into arabs from africa)! first: what this has to do with palestinians comparing them to jews in african genes ( sound racist don't you think?), secondly: the study is old and was based on the premise of the non existant of L haplogroup in Jews women!!!, however recent studies found jewish women did never come from the middle east to begin with, so the premise of the study was false, you also need to read the study! so both studies are not relevant and not scientific!07:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
In case you want to return the section (gene flow) then I will just add to it the stuff I mentioned above ( that the jew women are not descendent of ancient jew women, and that will hurt your jewish friends more than if we just cut. of course I have multiple evidence for that, just waiting sincerely07:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
There is nothing wrong with the study about deafness but khazaria sit interpret it wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Eleland, i appreciate your helpful stance and constructive assertions on this, as well as your willingness to be objective about this, and to view this skeptically. however, i don;'t see what relevance the evidence has here. If the world accepts any ethnic or relifgious group, then our job as an encyclopedia is to report that. we do not produce or render our own historical, political or scientific verdicts here, regardless of the data it is based on. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 14:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no gene flow from africa in palestinian women as the study suggest. I am not critisitzing the conclusions of the study but the premise!!!! The Premise is that (since CURRENT jewish women don't have the gene flow) He is taking for granted that the current jewish women are the descendents of the jewish women who supposedly exited the middle east in 120 AD as the study says (120 AD is the mark here, because Arabs started the slave trade according to him in 7th century AD! also took this for granted that the Arabs did a slave trade!!), the L haplogroup is NOW determined to be Original in Middle East, and the reason why it is not found in Jews is because about 99% of Jewish women are from Haplogroups that never existed in the Middle East (in or before 120AD in Palestine or the surrounding areas! Not to mention that Jews have over 35% of E3b of the Habasha slave on the male side(ethiopian slave that acompanied the J haplogroup in ancient times. It is the hence the Current jews who are made up largley from Africans ( on the male side) not the Arabs. J1 is the semitic Haplogroup. Jews have J2 30% J2 haplogroup subclades of different nations of the mideterranean, and 35 % of E3b of Habasha african and only 10 % of J1 of Semites plus a whopping 50% of R1a1 R1b, I and Q of Europe and tatar of siberia. the study is old concerning this specific L haplogroup, it is not african but middle eastern ( most of it actually north africa and Ethiopia and Yemen and did not come by slavery as the study suggest. It will require me time to bring refs from the internet but when I have to do that, then It will be great to put all the studies together to further expose the cheating here. I am not particularly against this article but to let it stay we have to put the other evidence that L is original and jews don't have it because they are not original-it is your throw now. It will make me more than happy to add info that jews are not original ( their ancestors never been in ME .18:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with Itsmejudith we should be talking about palestinians only, why? mention comparative studies between them and jews! all reference to similarities or dissimilarities to jews to be taken out. including the gene flow and the deafness gene. If they stay, then I will have to add a lot of refs to the contrary and the section will be big ( it is already big) However, If after I work hard to bring the evidence I told you about ( lots of cutting and pasting on my computer) then They should all stay! what I am going to do is let the gene flow section and then add that this study was wrong in the premise that since hews don't have it then it must have come to the arabs from 7 century ad onward. to explain my point that jewish women have haplogroups K and K1 and H and H1 ( K1 is only found in ashkenazim and Polish Roma people! (K1 is 32% of all ashkenazim women!!, while H1 is also very rare outside jews ) but no k1 or h1 is found in middle east!! for a haplogroup to reside in a place it will have to leave a residue in the surrounding population and in the population of that haplogroup it self who still reside in the area! right? The rabbies (who ran Operation Jews to Roma 120AD) did not know who is who in haplogroups in 100 AD to be able to take all of a haplogroup out from the middle east! right? (like K1 and H1 or even k and H ) L ( L1 , 2 , 3, 4, --7)haplogroup is not subsaharan it is found in all africa and middle east (only L1)and also in europe 1% plus another african haplogroup N found in europe(african ) and considered ancient in europe. L was treated differently by the gene flow study because it was not found in CURRENT jews!!!, so the researcher says that (check this out) since Current jews don't have this L, then they did not have it when they moved out of middle east, THEN it was not existent in the midddle east in 120 AD, and so the arabs must have got it from slave trade after 120 AD! Can you believe this craziness!!!???So the researcher had as a FACT that jewish women are the same haplogroups they had of 120. How did he know all that. He actually needs to do hundred studies to check that out, not use it as a fact( premise)!
Hi Steve: In response to your question, the aleady discovered haplogroups already drew a tree branches map!, that could not be negated. For example if two birds on same branch then they are related. However if each bird on a different branch then they are related only back to before their branches branched. The last branch from j to j1 and j2 was 10000 years ago. Both cohanim ( few thousands ) and Arabs (100 millions) are from the same haplogroup and haplotype and YCAII 22-22 which reprent the Arab of the 7th century invasion ( ie the AArabs are extremely close ancestrally to Cohanim) so if one is in j1 and one is in j2 they could be related to the 150th grand grand father. In CMH holdres they are at least related by their grand grand father 3300 years ago( Aaron) or (Abraham). Arabs like in a country like Oman (that jews never went to ever) have 20% CMH ( how many millions is that), while jews all have 3% CMH ( how many people is that( jews are 12 million) the rest of the arabs are similar to Oman (bringing the CMH holders in arabs to millions) However CMH and its sisters ( sisters of CMH is Bedoin MH Galilee Arab MH, Sanaa (Yemen) MH, Algeria MH, etc etc) are in the YCAII locust in J1/ this will bring the MCRA ( most common recent ancester to either Aaron or Abraham! but jews have only 12% of J1 while arabs have 60-80% J1( according to the jewish scientists Nebet Behar Hammer and others Semino Capelli Ceningulu etc, and also If you look at the diagram for CMH the cohanim have to be related to Arabs to be descendents of Aaron ( meaning Cohanites and Arabs are in the same cluster even they are both in YCII=22-22 which was considered represent Arabs (Nebet et al 2001) but now all Cohanim CMH is found in CAII22-22! also see this page [9]( from the website of these researchers) it shows in the {results} page that Cohanim and arab are in the Arab CAii22-22 which represent the arab of the 7th century, this means that the Cohanim who follow patreneal lineage ( rather than jewish tradition=from mother) are very connected to the Arabs! ( in other words Aaron and the father of the arabs are brothers!( or cousins or cousins from the previous 500 years before Aaron! ie Abraham. When Hammer did the study about Cohanim there was no arab studied but Nebel et Al 2001 found that CMH is found in both arabs palestinians and Cohanim, and then after discovering YCAii 22-22 in the Arabs they found out that also the cohanim have that too!!! ( meaning Cohanim with CMH in J1)all together with the one step mutation sisters of CMH ( around 10 sisters all arabic) this will include all arabs ( 100s of millions) in being closely connected with Cohanim the people who are paternally descended from Aaron (son of Abraham). Since cohanim CMH is found by the millions in Arabs it should be called Arab modal Haplotype or Abraham Modal Haplotype!
Yes it is true but don't take my home away from me, Your humanity is appreciated!
the conclusion of Oppenheim in DNA clues conradict the jargon nonsense of Mr Louis the maverick know it all ( he know nothing) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 15:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
And neither should the article on Jewish people.
As the article on race notes, scientists do not recognize any such thing as a "race" based on genetics. Research into the genetics of Palestinians and Jews is generally used by two equally fanatic groups, in conspiracy theories:
Both are pseudoscientific fringe theories based on bigotry and do not belong in Wikipedia.
In this article, mentioning the histories of various ethnic groups merging with the Palestinians and so on, is acceptable, but usage of genetics should generally be avoided. In some places, it's relevant (since genetics does impact the distinct features of certain ethnic groups, such as with Ashkenazi Jews).
But if you guys can't agree on what should be included or you have people adding fringe material on genetics either in support of Israel or in opposition of Israel, it should be immediately removed. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Why in the world suddenly jews don't want genetics to be mentioned in Palestinians and Jews!!
genetics are used in all articles in wikipedia or others about peoples and Nations.
Is it becasue DNA confirm that the Palestinians are the same J1 who were in Neoloithic times in Palestine and exactly match the lineage of Aaron, while CURRENT jews got caught red handed ( historically) stealing a land that their recent or ancient ancestors never been to ( not through Maternal lineage not through Paternal lineage and not through any DNA at all!)
Palestinians have the right to inform the world about themselves (DNA or otherwise, they are not the Masked Prisoner of the Bastilles!) The world have the right to know about Palestinians who might be related to them by DNA, and to get all the evidence (DNA archaeological Historical, Media, Linguistics, etc) to see who is really descendent of the Ancient Israelies and whose home is it the palestinians or the jews, because the jews have clearly been clearly exposed as a mixed peoples fromdifferent nations and races that had never put foot in Palestine ever! Especially that this issue is important for every person in the world these days.11:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I am afraid it is true, you got caught redhanded this time by DNA, no controlled media or propaganda will help this time 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The comment above by anonymous IP: "Why in the world suddenly jews don't want genetics to be mentioned". I'm not Jewish and asserting that those you disagree with are Jews is anti-semitic. So, I've reported it on WP:ANI.
Padillah: "the comparison to Jewish DNA ancestry is inappropriate and could be construed as anti-semitic" -- It is anti-semitic, lol. This article is about the Palestinian people. Why on earth is Jewish DNA even being brought up here? What's the relevancy? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 21:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The comparison may be in reliable sources, but that says nothing of the fact that it is an irrelevant, fringe theory.
"its interesting" is a red herring, because the claims are still irrelevant to the topic of this article.
If you'd like, you could try to contribute this information to Semite#Ethnicity and race. However even that section is again misleading because it fails to note the fact that there is no such thing as a "race", as it is understood traditionally, and current speculations about it based on population genetics are original research. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 22:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Who says this article does need DNA section is nuts!
The jews used the semitic right of return in 1950 to give immigration nationality certificates to what became the citizens of Israel on the basis that they are descendents of the Semites ( descendents of Abraham of the Bible, descendents of The Ancient Israelites who lived in Palestine pre 120AD , that their ancestors were citizens of the area in ancient times, any or one of the above). The DNA studies prove that Jews ( sephard Mizrahi and Ashkenazim) are not descendents of the ancient Israelites( their ancestors never set foot in the Holy Land or near it) using the three types of DNA ( Y chromosome mtDNA and Autosomal tchromosomes) all theree testings found the jews alien to the area and their haplogroups (Y DNA, mtDNA) and Autosomal SNPs are originated in areas far away from the middle East and never been to it in the past. (Now if you don't have something you can not give it , right?) The current jewshave no ancestry to a man ( abraham or otherwise) who lived in Palestine and his descendents or adherents LIVED in that Area) so even if spiritual ancestry does not exist ( claiming that a pool of different people claimed Israelite status still does not fly either) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotect}} Could whomever protected this page please add a {{protection}} banner of some sort. I had no idea what was going on nor why the "History" and "Edit This Page" were missing.
Also, please remove the "DNA clues" section as it is completely uncalled for, not based in fact, and could be construed as anti-semitic. Thank you. Padillah ( talk) 18:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Somehow I feel that the DNA discussion is not moving in the most constructive manner. Here are some suggestions:
Thanks for your consideration. Hope this is helpful. Thanks, HG | Talk 02:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Can anybody check for me what Keilana final decision of removing the protection by removing the protection and then adding it one minute later!!! in the page history ( as a response to Sandstein and others to remove the unjust protection) can anybody explain to me the last edits in page History? I am really baffled. and need help to request recalling protection ( of Ed Gies that is whose sudden interfernce was protected without him even discussing his cut in the discussion page and presenting any evidence at all!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 03:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC) Palestinians have the right to have DNA clues section like Mulanugin peoples of West virginia (400 people) and many other ethnicitis who have DNA clues in Wiki! DNA ancestry studies sailed only in 2000! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 03:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I am shocked about the double standards used in this article: When many comparative studies with jews showing a relation were inserted in the article for years, nobody complained ot said that comparative studies is ORIGINAL THEORY, but when the most recent studies of 2004-2007 showed no relation and I reported them, a jolt broke out, and the claim or original research!
Every thing I added was recent research ( see the references I brought in) ( notice that recent research overrule older research, especially in DNA genealogy field that started in 2000 only) For example of recent research "Genetic evidence for the expansion of Arabian tribes" 2001 Nebet et Al mentions that the Arab of the 7th century expansion have the signature named CAII 22-22, I added the page of Nebet (2007) where he says that the Cohanim CMH also is a CAII 22-22!!!, and all arab haplotypes(GMH SMH BMH etc) and CMH are locusted in CAII 22-22 shaded area of the Arabs of 7th century expansion!!?. Also check this strange statement: (While it is also found in Jewish populations (<15%), haplogroup J2 (M172)( of eight sub-Haplogroups), is almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (<29%).[100][101][102][103][104] ) This statement is deceiving. It makes the layman thinks that jews still have more than the Arabs in J ( J1 and J2) (!?) as if every thing J is jewish! and all the references 100-104 references are misplaced sometime in the last few months because they are about that J1 being semitic ( so I moved them to their proper original place at J1 explanation where in the past j1 was mentioned as the only one is considered semitic ( 4 refs for that!) The palestinians have the right to tell the world that they are semitic!. according to the 4 refs!. (semitic means semitic speaking peoples ( I added also this explanation). I added the studies that mentions that jews are not related to palestinians but more related to Georgians and Italians ( and also russian along with georgians and italians (as in the Autosomal testing ref I brought in) ( there is no theory in that nor is it antisemetic( can you see anything antisemetic about jews differ from Arabs!?. I did not mention any theory in the article, but did mention my conclusion and other more data ( not published yet in the artcile but they are still from recent studies about K1 and H1 female haplogroups) in the talk page!!! ( is this allowed?- I think so, right?)
I also reported that if the "gene flow study" is not removed ( being racist and not true) then I suggested we add the research that found that Jewish women by far 99% are not originated in the middle East, to prove that the premise of "the gene flow study" was wrong! hence the conclusion is wrong! ( did you hear about inference engine? if Premise is A then Destination(conclusion) is B ) I am also surprised by the so Unbiased Administrator who protected the article after Ed Geis cut all my work! even though he did nothing BUT cut my work!!!?? for no reason other than his opinion ( the non referenced opinion!!!), Keilana protected his/her outrageous major cut in which he added no refs to his action, not on the article itself and not in the discussion page!? I think Keilana chose protection of either my contrib or his cut in a 50% 50% roll of a penny and obviously was not predetermined (NOT!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 01:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The section is big for the reason that the info in Haplogroup Y-DNA J is repeated in the article (readers can just click on J1 or J2 and read about it in its page. However my contributaion is not found anywhere in Wiki pages yet( the referenced new research ) such new points are: Paletinians have high J1 considered semitic (4 ref) J1 of Palestinians is same haplotype of ancient jews as in Cohen CMH evidence (2 ref). The palestinians were found to not closely match jews (4 ref) , and that is it! I will present you with a version of DNA clues section that is really short and referenced to the bone. No theory should be mentioned such as jews are impostering on the lineage Abraham or the ancient Israelites or the Palestinians true lineage. Is this a good resolution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
And why then the section about resemblance between the two was inserted into the article for years !!and nobody in the administrators cared about previous complaints that said this is not true or related?, the administrators rejected the complaints??( that was few months ago). I think it is important to explain in DNA clues section that the Palestinians are the true semites and that they descended from the jews and arabs who inhabited palestine upon the start of Diaspora and to mention that indeed the current Arabs ( including the Palestinians) are very closely related to the ancient Israelites ( Cohen CMH evidence). There is nothing wrong about all this nor is it anti-semitic ( for God sake).
As per the section (( the palestinians were found not to closely match jews, etc---) it was taken to the letter from Dienekes anthropology web blog ( a grade A critique of Scientific DNA research by Dienekes one of the oldest researcher in the field!! also from rootsweb forum ( a scientific dialogue between the top scientiscts and critics of the field)!!My contributions lately did not make a theory (( the Palestinians are found to not match jews --etc..etc)) is not a theory: it is in Nebet et Al 2001 who is already mentioned in the article plus the above mentioned forums with solid gold references as I added them. So where is the so called Crack-pot theory in my contrib? The fact that current arabs and cohanim descende firmly from same ancestor of the Cohanim? or
that Jews don't match palestinians as a whole? both of these two points were added to by my contrib( but were already in the article!) and which one of them is the antisemitic???!!!!
Hope Ed Gies, the unknown unreachable batman, could answer that or his fellow supporters ( they are many- and clearly say they are jews in their personal talk pages and they have also contributed many of the anti-Palestinians defamatory and inflamatory and disrespectful remarks with out ever any bosy bother to lable them as anti-semitic even though Palestinians are Semetic people who speak semetic language (arabic)descendent from Abraham as the bible claim etc) and are actually included in the us anti-semetism law of 1940 something —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 07:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
To Zenwhat:
It is not true that race is original research or untrue!
in dienekes wob blog in 2007 some studies found evidence of the relation between race and genetics and genetics and language.
You info are so 80's.
I would like to add concerning DNA clues section that In 1950 The Israeli government Issued (the Semetic Law of Return) as a law. It was a response to UN famous law requiring the right of palestinians to return to their homes!
The Semetic Law of Return was a retaliation on the un that the People who lived in 100 AD ( 2000 years ago) and left their country then, are more deserving of the right of return. The difinition of those people was: every person whose mother or grand mother is jewish.
To know that the government gave the authority to decide that to rabbies who certified that by providing evidence such as the mother was married to a jew etc or registered as a jew in some synogoge around the world and approved by a rabbi that this woman is a so called a direct descendent of Ancient Israelites or even Abraham ( all according to rabbies decisions and configurations such as checking for circumcision etc).
The recent DNA studies , However, shows that the overwhelming majority of jewish women are not descendent from a people who resided in Middle East by any chance of imagination ( since K1 and H1 are absolutely non existant in ME or anywhere else but in Ashkenazim and Polish ROMA people!!!. It is good to mention this in the article because it is very relevant to Palestinians claims of the right to their land and the wrongness of the Law of 1950 Semetic right of return which prevented palestinians to return to their land and instead brought multitude of exclusively Europpean Haplogroup R1a1 and R1b and K1 and H1 and Q and I and J2b etc., who had never existant in ME in history! However this info I did not put in the article yet but just here(discussion) for your eyes and it is also not a theory. and deserves mention and merit in pleight of Palestinians to get back their country. I am not interested in Politics nor do I think politics dependent on peddlars like me. Politics depend on power and big guns ( and Israel have plenty of those). Finally can anybody check for me what Keilana final decision of removing the protection by removing the protection and then adding it one minute later!!! ( as a response to Sandstein and others to remove her unjust protection) can anybody explain to me the last to edits in page History? I am really baffled. and need help to request recalling protection ( of Ed Gies that is)
Thanx a plenty. I start editing before I remember to log in. sorry for that. I will try to shorten the section even more 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 17:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The DNA clues section is a scientific section. this science started in 2000!!! (ie DNA genealogy ancestry). You can not use a 2000 study over a 2006 study, the 2006 study override 2000 study.
and you can not use prepaid scribes like Louis and others of philosophers are NOT references in DNA clues. This is why I cut the Fergus study by a historian who is reminiscent about a study done in 2000 that was faulty in which Nebet 2000 ( and Hammer 1999) found same 9 Haplogroups in both Arabs and Jews. This study made mockery and stupid of scientists, many protested and Nebet el al 2001 verified that jews are more like Kurds than arabs.
Both people have J1, J2( of several subclades in jews and one clade in Arabs!) R1a1, R1b, G , E3b of Berber, E3b of Ethiopians, ( while jews had estra I and Q), BUT Jews have R 50% while Arabs have R at 4%, Jews have E at 35% while Arabs at 10%, J1 in Arabs 60% while in Jews 14% etc.
The existance of same haplogroups in two different populations does not mean they are brothers. You can find the same haplogroups among both Arabs and Europpeans,or Arabs and Iranians, or Arabs and Turkey etc ( or even arabs and chinese!! even though chinese are 90% O, but they still have R in Ugur minority and J1 in muslim chinese minority and J2 in Tajik chinese etc)). All studies of 2000 and 2001 are considered outdated when compared with newer studies in DNA studies ( in Nebet 2000 study the Haplogroups were still even considered Baliatic Haplotypes!) Now we know haplogroups are not haplotypes, only haplotypes are indicator of relationship or recent common ancestry! ( last 4k years). I would urge editors to consider this fact when comparing conflicting studies and what ever critique about them on the net ( who is outdated and who is not etc) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I never put many studies that cause argument( that you consider my theory). You can not put Louis every where as a ref! ( or his likes). Fergus is talking about a study made in 2000 ignoring the many other studies that came after and all the critiques on all them. You can check the Dienekes blog for up to date critique of all DNA studies. It is easy to maneuver. ( Fergus also could have used the same blog). You can read that Fergus is talking about shared haplogroups in the two peoples which means nothing for even newcomer to DNA studies, especially that these days people are flocking to DNA testing companies to check themselves. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This edit [10] reverts a sourced information sentense that was in the article for weeks and weeks. Clearly she need to discuss before deciding to remove info from Britanika and clearly no one has specific knolwledge on where do the palestinian came from. Some could have been Jewish (the jews came from Iraq and Egypt) , some could have been Egyptians, some came from Syria as late as the 1930s and 40s. etc... Zeq ( talk) 09:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Zeq, you have restored this which makes undiscussed changes to the introduction. Are you unaware of the long discussion regarding the first sentence? Do you think "who describe themself as Palestinian" is an acceptable substitie for "family origins in Palestine"?
Second, the other material you added is redundant, as it restates material discussed at length in the section directly below the introduction, though in a less clear fashion. It also interrupts the flow of the sentence, and you deleted a wikilink I just added that is useful to Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian.
I don't agree with your changes at all and they are highly contentious. I would appreciate it if you could discuss them here and restore the consensus version that was in place before you made these changes as a gesture of good-faith. Thank you. Tiamut talk 09:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
'Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by the Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century'
During the British Mandate of Palestine, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory authorities were granted "Palestinian citizenship".[9]
Following the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people, the use and application of the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian" by and to Palestinian Jews largely dropped from use. The English-language newspaper The Palestine Post for example — which, since 1932, primarily served the Jewish community in the British Mandate of Palestine — changed its name in 1950 to The Jerusalem Post. Jews in Israel and the West Bank today generally identify as Israelis. Arab citizens of Israel identify themselves as Israeli and/or Palestinian and/or Arab.[10]
Now, "family origins" does not imply some eternal timeless nature. People with family origins in Boston do not necessarily have Native American ancestry, etc. If that were the case then the only valid claim of "family origins" would be in sub-Saharan Africa, if not in precambrian ooze. This is pretty basic.
Also, I do not appreciate contradictory claims being introduced to the article without sourcing or attempting to reconcile with what's already there. If Filasteen (est. 1911), addressed its Arabic-literate readers as "Palestinians" while denouncing "foreign" Zionists, than it's hard to see why we'd prominently state that before '48 "the term was used to describe all the inhabitants of Palestine regardless of nationality." Some used the term that way, some used it to describe only the putative Palestinian Arab nation. Passive-voice formulations of this sort are treacherous; they strongly imply uniformity without making them. Let's use the clearest language we possibly can. < eleland/ talk edits> 13:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
"family origins" means that the family originated from that area - this is clearlt not true to many who call themself palestinians. Zeq ( talk) 13:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
<When some of the intensity subsides here, I invite you all to reflect on why this incident has happened. What is the underlying nature or character of this dispute? What unmet needs deserve to be addressed? What can we ask of the other in order to be able to lay down our arms and settle the differences at stake? My own reflections here. Thanks. HG | Talk 14:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC) >
Regards Nishidani ( talk) 16:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)(after 1948)'Israel sought to impede the development of a cohesive national consciousness among the Palestinians by dealing with various minority groups, such as Druze, Circassians, and Bedouin; by hindering the work of the Muslim religious organizations; by arresting and harassing individuals suspected of harbouring nationalist sentiments; and by focusing on education as a means of creating a new Israeli Arab identity.'
Tiamut, in the spirit of communal editing, it is expected to make a proper explanation if there's a chance that your fellow editor missed something. Also, it is expected that full reverts would be minimized and that edits will stick to the problematic issues, rather than the entire edit.
Please explain your revert, since I could not understand why you've made it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
'The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre-World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people.p.29
'The first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [23]
'The first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" by the locals began in the early 1900s. However, before the establishment of Israel in 1948, the term was used to describe all the inhabitants of Palestine regardless of nationality.'
I don't know about what you quarrel but here is some material : concerning the palestinian arab nationalist feeling Ceedjee ( talk) 21:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
It does not matter if you call it (palestinian nation ) or (holy land nation ) or whatsoever. It is a nation regardless of when the word was used. The term Palestine was forced into use by the Imperial powers ( France and Britain) on the area better known to its inhabitants and the world as the Holy Land or (Land of Quds) in Arabic meaning The Land of Holy (Quds =Jerusalem). name it Palestine or Holy Land it does not matter, what matters that it was a unique land with unique population separated from surrounding area by good natural borders ( Sinai desert, South Lebanon Rocky lands ), jordan river and beyond iyt the owrst desert ever known to man, The mountains of Jolan, etc. The peple inside this land were the Arabs in absolute majority with few hundred people ( samaritans) and less than that in sephardim (traveling jews) residing in just two places ( old city of jerusalem ) and Safad city, and one family in Tel Aviv. The arabs are made up of 10% christians ( christians call themselves Arabs and belong to the Gassanite Tribe in matheir majority, the Christian Arabs of Israel demand the Israeli state to add the word Arab to them as Israeli Arabs. (0% are muslims, However both Arabs (muslims and christians) are in Part descendents of the ancient jews who followed their messiah Jesus and continued to saty in the land and became known as christians. ( historically it is known that the jews split in half between pro Jesus and anti Jesus, the anti Jesus perished in their uprising in Jerusalem in 70 AD during a festival where almost all jews came to the city and locked themselves in the city ( one a half million are said to perished in 70AD), the remaining jews of Palestine did another uprising in 120 (Bar Kohba) and perished. After that no jews survived in the holy land and nobod immigrated from the holy land because no body survived. But there was jews in Iraq ( mostly kurdish converts) who allied themselves with the Persian empire and attacked Jerusalem twice ( twice killed christians and desctroyed the Church of Nativity. the last one was just few years before islamic conquest in 635 AD. The original jews did not leave Palestine and there was no diaspora in 70 AD or 120 AD ( no records from surrounding countries reveal such exodus). The jews of Palestine continued to live there as the Christians up to this day (as christians and as muslims) and some jews continued to live in very small numbers in closed villages, untill they all converted to Islam or Christianity . Palestinians are a nation by the fact they have their own distinct Arabic dialect that goes back to phoenician times, and the names of their villages are the same of the names found in a ncient archaeological discoveries ( like Kfar, Beit, etc) The current israelies kept some of these names like Bersheva ( Be'ir Sabe'a) and Negev (Naqab) tel Aviv ( Tal Abib) for example, but you can see that V letter does not exist in ancient Hebrew or semitic languages and so the israeli city names ar obvious vandalism of gothic people (Yiddish speaking khazar ) trying to use speak an alien semitic language ! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 09:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
So what is your point? do you think the native americans differ from Red Indians? aren't they the same people? same people but different names according to who name them that! Palestinians are nation , they call themselves Maqdisites ( people of the land of Quds(jerusalem and the holy land around it (from See to dead sea). the reason Palestine is the used name by its resident and others is because of historical precedent. When the Greek took over the area 330 BC they named it Palestine in remembrence of the Philistes who were from greek islands (sea people) who attacked all shores and lived for few hundred years in Tel Aviv Ashkelon Gaza areas), when the Romans took over they renamed the area Syria ( in remembrence of their cousins the assyrians (trojans (proto-romans) and assyrians were cousins), when the arabs took over they reused the old name in 700 AD, then the name diappeared untill the Europpean powers implied on the Ottoman empire in treaties ( after beating the ottomans in several wars (Balkan wars, Crimean wars etc) to name the Maronite area in Lebanon as Lebanon and the Holy land area as Palestine. at that time the city of Akka (Acre) was the capital of the province of Syria ( and the governer of Syria Ahmad Pasha al jazzar actually defeated Napolion at the walls of the capital Ackre (acca) in 1805? right? . Khalif Sulaiman bin Abdul Malik chose Jerusalem as the Capital of the Umayyad Khilafate, and was the capital of umayyad again, later. Acre (akka0 was the kapital for hundred years 1800.
As you can see there are a lot of reasons why they are a nation ( ie Palestinian in your word, Maqdisites in their own word, etc) they had a capital, they have a dialect they have many many special cusines ( cheese, halva, baklava, Orange, Falafel etc) in their name. They had the Holy Sacred Al Aqsa Mosque which was also a school ( the crusaders killed 22000 students of that school when they took jerusalem in 1099 and did not spare those students who were non combatants but scholars from other places. whatelse about reasons to call them a nation? Ah: throwing stones at their enemies in battles ( from the time of David who slew Goliath with stone). many many thingds indeed 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 10:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
what reference do you want about what? that native americans are the same as red indian or Palestinians are the same as Ard Maqdes( Holy land)? or the refrence that European powers forced the Ottomans to name the area Palestine instead of arabic Filistine or you want a refrence that it was called filistine and or Ard almaqdes by the natives. when the arabs came to palestine Jerusalem was called Elia Quds by the christians ( meaning Holy of Ilia (allah)*, before the christian byzantium the pagan romans called Ilia Capitolina, before that Jews called it Ha Maqdesh ( read the bible) it was never called Jerusalem by anybody ( only the jews of the converted diaspora called it Jerusalem based on the forfeited copy of the Old testament. In the original copy of the old testament found in Dead Sea Scrolls it is called HaMaqdesh never Jerusalem ) or Yerusalem was ever mentioned). It's name was ever Quds by ancient jews later christians and muslims and in the bible ( the original bible not the masoretic one) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
where did you read that alia was Hadrian family name, wouldn't rather be Jalianus Ha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 18:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
If there is some basic that "we're talking about the post-1922 mandate", it is most certainly unclear from the text. Either Jordan is inserted into account, to that this 1922 matter should be clarified in the article. Personally, being that Jordan has 3M Palestinians (not 2 as I originally thought), I believe it most certainly be mentioned... however, I have no objection that the paragraph will be clarified instead. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamut (and only Tiamut), in the spirit of communal editing, it is expected to make a proper explanation if there's a chance that your fellow editor missed something. Also, it is expected that full reverts would be minimized and that edits will stick to the problematic issues, rather than the entire edit.
Please explain your revert, since I could not understand why you've made it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
p.s. To all, per WP:CIV and WP:AGF, please avoid talk page accusations of WP:Own, baiting, editorializing, slipshod misleading, disingenuous, etc. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 21:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamut, I just want a proper content based explanation on this edit [16].
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 12:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
During the British Mandate of Palestine, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory authorities were granted "Palestinian citizenship".[9] Following the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people, the use and application of the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian" by and to Palestinian Jews largely dropped from use. The English-language newspaper The Palestine Post for example — which, since 1932, primarily served the Jewish community in the British Mandate of Palestine — changed its name in 1950 to The Jerusalem Post. Jews in Israel and the West Bank today generally identify as Israelis. Arab citizens of Israel identify themselves as Israeli and/or Palestinian and/or Arab.[10]
Tiamut, Please respond to my raised points. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC) There is no relation between who was called Palestinian before the 2nd wold war and Palestinian people, just as there is no relation between Apachi people and white settlers in their area who called themselves Apachi people, and the citizenships given between the two world war were given by The Occupying British so who got citizenship do not count Palestinian people as well! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 01:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Jaakobou, hi. The Talk and diffs aren't so easy to follow. I'm wondering if you, Tiamut, Zeq, CO'48 and the others could please list, in a concise way, the disputed text/content items in the lead paragraphs. Here's a guess, please correct or revise these as needed.
Also, in what order would you all like to discuss these items (if they are still contested)? Finally, it looks like people are talking about expectations such as minimize reverts, narrow re-editing, respect for existing work, etc. When an article is disputed, it would be helpful to agree on raising the usual expectations, right? Thanks very much. HG | Talk 23:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The following is based on an editorial view that we are writing this for the benefit of the readers and the title of the article is Palestinian people, now and before. Please consider an encyclopedic, historical perspective to consider which of these two edits is more correct. My perspective sides with the P-side, as my partial revert indicates; that is not to say that the I-side edit is necessarily incorrect, but the edit's placement is too prominent in the second para.
My perspective: The Jewish immigrants (returnees) of that time came to re-establish Eretz Israel; they were not motivated to become Palestinians, except by happenstance of history and geography. That said, I see this edit as being overly political for the I-side to now demand that this homogenizing edit should be so prominently displayed to describe who the Palestinian people are; were then, maybe.
My reasons: The pre-Hertzl first Aliyah was religious, Eretz Israel, 30k people; the post-Hertzl, second Aliyah was Zionist, more secular, more socialist/communist, 40k people from Pale and Pogroms, but millions more to the Americas. These pioneering Jews in Palestine were religious and/or Zionists armed only with a dream of a ‘Jewish state’, faith and history (and Hashomer, which indicates existing P-side oppositional nationalism). They had no formal foundation until after Balfour, which is their legal international keystone, upon which they built. After (Sykes-Picot, Hussein-McMahon and) Balfour all bets were off, the split became open, all had been pawns of an empire. After Balfour, they were all in Palestinian yes, but they were definitely not homogeneous; quite distinctly they were either Palestinian Jews/Zionists or they were "existing non-Jewish communities in Palestinian", Palestinians. I do not believe NPOV editors can now tell the readers that this homogeneity really existed, except in a ‘yes, but’ statement deeper in the article. I do believe that this edit shows too much Zion-ishness to be NPOV. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The what you called The Jewish immigrants (returnees), are not returnees. Their haplogroups DNA signatures prove that 95% of them never been descendents of the people who lived there ( regardless if they were the jews or phonenecians etc). check DNA clues discussion, nor they are immigrants, because they did not immigrate but invaded. They did not get permission from the owners of the land but rather from the British who were invaders of Palestine ( sworn enemies of Palestinians since Richard the Lion Heart killed 10000 muslims in Ackre a 900 years ago, and since then where ever you find a British soldier dies in any given battle in history you find a PALESTINIAN soldier dies from the other side of the same battle (crusade wars, Ottoman English wars, Ottoman Europpean wars, Spaniards -Moorish wars etc etc untill the present.
So Brithish have no right to give passport or residency to other people to the Holy land. The Palestinians killed thousands of British soldiers between 1936 1939 for example. The British participated and taught the jews in the Night command raids in and around Haifa during the 1947 war. The jews who were brought to Palestine in the years leading to 1947 were all young strong men and women who were not in need of becoming refugees( 90% were young military trained) Hagana Stern gangs recrueted in these gangs way before they landed in Palestine ( in Checkoslovakia and Poland) like Menahem Begen and Isaac Shamir etc. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 10:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh yes? Do you have a better evidence than DNA? what evidence you have they are returnees? may be some picture of your grand grand grand mother on the family friendly cruise ship "Trans Byzanta" with the palestinian coast in the background in the year 120 AD 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)?
Padillah; I was away for just one day; and have come back to see the same old Wikipedia. I don’t think that what transpired yesterday is fair. Instead on harping on what was wrong; let’s rather move ahead in the right way in the future.
< http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-45075/Palestine> Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica source in its entirety on which the second paragraph is based on:
Palestine and the Palestinians (1948–67) - The term "Palestinian". Henceforth the term Palestinian will be used when referring to the Arabs of the former mandated Palestine, excluding Israel. Although the Arabs of Palestine had been creating and developing a Palestinian identity for about 200 years, the idea that Palestinians form a distinct people is relatively recent. The Arabs living in Palestine had never had a separate state. Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by the Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century; at the same time, most saw themselves as part of the larger Arab or Muslim community. The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre-World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people. But after 1948—and even more so after 1967—for Palestinians themselves the term came to signify not only a place of origin but, more importantly, a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.
This source was used; but for some odd reason, some words were changed to say something else then what it actually says. I had to correct the second paragraph twice to make it say what its source is saying. When two reversions to my corrections failed; all of a sudden some editors decided that we don't need those parts of this source. Until my correction, the false information was ok to them; but the corrected quote is now bothersome to them. To avert an edit war; I'll incorporate both parts of that source; the part which refers to the development of a Palestinian identity and also the part which refers to its development as recent. Both parts aren't liked to either side of the conflict; but we as Wikipedians can't pick and choose which parts we like and which we don't like. I would agree that not every word of this source has to be quoted; but I think it fair that at least, every deletion or addition should be explained or discussed; why some words should and some shouldn't be there. I have edited a first version for that paragraph, based on how it stood two days ago, with the addition of more of that source; and let’s take it from there; thanks. Itzse ( talk) 00:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I ask you not to revert my change; but let Padillah analyze my edit; and let others weigh in on this. I have to leave now, but in short; I agree with you that we don't need the entire EB piece. But deciding on your own which to include and which not, would be in essence doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. I do understand that the article as is doesn't reflect your POV; nor does it mine; but fairness is fairness; Both POV's need to be here; especially if the EB entry is tilted towards the Palestinians but nevertheless gives us some historical perspective. Itzse ( talk) 01:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
People may have noticed that I have deleted some material as not relevant to the topic. As I said above, I think that the section should be shorter and confine itself to discussion of the genetic make-up of Palestinian people only. It can only stray into the territory of which populations have the most right to live in Israel/Palestine if good sources themselves comment on this issue. I'm not going to push it very far at present. My main concern is that the section is difficult to follow and not well written. Although it cites many academic sources, some of these may not be relevant to the question in hand, as their main focus is on different territories, e.g. Crete. They may still be usable but the context should be made clear and we should be especially careful not to misrepresent them or to arrive at an original synthesis. Hope this helps. If anyone wants to revert me, please remember that the onus is on those who want material included to provide the justification why. Thanks, and thanks to HG for his message on my talk page and friendly invitation to join in the discussion. I have come to this page having seen the message on the fringe theories noticeboard. Itsmejudith ( talk) 16:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by ( It can only stray into the territory of which populations have the most right to live in Israel/Palestine if good sources themselves comment on this issue)? did you just made a decision on behalf of the palestinians? or do you just believe that Istraelis and jews have the right to part of Palestine for an evidence you know about but we don't know about because we can not handle the truth? Where have you been for a long time? we needed some one like you to settle things quickly, and every body live happily ever after. The Point of the DNA clues (Clues!): is to show that Palestinians are descendents of all the people who lived there from ancient times ( including the ancient Israelites) and that the current occupiers of Palestines ( Israelis) are NOT descendents of those people ( hence they are not returnees or inheritors female and male lineages and even autosomal DNA) of the Ancient Israelies or the Ancient philistines, phoenicians and even passers-bye in the land in ancient times!
So thanx but thanx. Don't cut anything or replace it with out a solid DNA study that is not nullified or outdated! Thank you very much. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Concerning the statement (DNA evidence is not considered conclusive proof of anything), it is obiously vey wrong. For example if a father had two sons A and B and DNA testing proved that A is not brother of B, and A is not son of the father, then it is powerful evidence stronger than the father and sons claims(period).
I have brought very powerful evidence to the conclusion that jews and israeli jews are NOT descendents ( in overwhelming majority) to people who ever lived in the middle East pre 120 AD, regardless if they were a pool of different people or descendent of one man or lived in Palestine as the ancient Israelites or phoenicians or even just passers by. For any such people they would difinetely leave a mark ( same haplogroup) in that land from their current DNA! ( if there are no marks there then the current jews' ancestors NEVER been in the Middle East (particularly Palestine and even the surrounding area). The Current Jews' ancestors have to have the same DNA markers of the Current Jews, and these markers should exist in Middle East ( and specially palestine and surrounding area) since in 2000 years is a very very recent time in DNA markers ( especially the Haplogroups). As I explained by lieu of DNA researchers in 2007/12 as recent as to 12/2007 and as old as 2005 ( coffman) and 2001 (nebet et al 2000) ( the DNA ancestry studies started in 2000!), that female lineage markers K1 (40% of Eastern ashkenazim) and H1, H3, H6 (of both E and W ashkenazim) are difinetely Not been in the ME or now. same thing goes for the rest of female markers minus (2%) and 55% of male lineage markers ( R1a1 R1b and I and Q ) and E and J2 and G (another 40%). Only J1 could have been the Haplogroup of ancient Israelites ( found highly in Cohanim people who follow Paternal lineage as contrary to Female lineage "Jewish Tradition" in rest of jews). Ashkenazim and sephardim still have higher J1 ( 13%)than Mizrahi who have only 8% of J1!. that makes 12% of male lineage and 2% of female lineages could possibly had been in the middle east in and around palestine) . for not being married to each other these haplogroups( male J1 and 2% female L and N females) , they could not possibly restore any of the supposedly ancient Israelites ( if we submit that indeed all the 12% males and all 2% females are indeed of the ancient Israelites ( highly unlikely but they could be a genetic drift from nations with same haplogroups such as arabs and assyrians romans etc). Finally Jews still have little J1 percentage than the ardent of NON SEMITIC ( NON semitic language speakers) peoples such as Georgians and Armenians ( both have 20% J1 each for example ) Turkey and Kurds and Iran have also more J1 percentage than jews. while we know that J1 is a genetic drift from Arabs in Armenia and Georgians, the 13% J1 in Jews could also be in majority a genetic drift from the Arabs too!) My contribution were cut by a Ed Gies ( unreachable) and still waiting for his response as to why he cut all that brand new references without presenting his evidence unless if he knew more than us because the bird on the window told him that of which he is pretty sure it is the truth and nothing but the truth. he cut also the DNA autosomal testing which many predicted will take years to take place but thanks to a patent by MIT graduate from Pensylvania two companies started making them and already have a huge date of Ashkenazim (300 persons) in one company, all of them are classified as Europpean origin ( closest match to Irtalian and Russians 50% but only 2% to Arabs and Middle Eastern peoples!)
As for itsmejudith she clearly said that DNA studies should not infringe on more than the lands that palestinians are entitled to? what does that mean for God sake? does that mean that (itsmejudith and friends) might decide to give some of the palestinians some of palestine, or is she the special envoy of some new world government she is presenting their messege? Even if that was such!, why not present the truth (DNA evidence)regardless of political negotiations or ramufications. Can't we for example talk about the historical evidence that native american were wiped out and cheated on in the last two centuries? or we should decist because every thing is settled now, and no need for knowing the past any more?? 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 07:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just don't know where Steve bting these unreferenced statements every now and then: (DNA evidence will not, does not, and has not affected the status of political claims on any issue or set of peoples) No! it is not true, and I said it again and again, talking about the Native americans what happened to them in the past has nothing to do with political negotiations, nor am I interested or willing to negotiate with the people who stole my house! it is just plain truth, just telling the truth as it is seen. There is no evodence that the Current jews did really leave Palestine in 120 AD ( No historical documents whatsoever!!, nobody ever witnessed people immigrating from Palestine then! No Road of Sorrows ) like the one known about the Native Americans being deported and moving west in 19th century! Got a historical evidence of such movement of Jewish peoples out of Palestine in 120 AD? Present it then for God sake!.
The DNA evidence proves that the Current jews are NOT ( are NOT) descendents from people lived ( passed by) Palestine area in the distant past ( not even the recent past in the last thousand uear for example for majority of jews still (Haplogroup R1a1 R1b I Q, H1 H3 H6, K1 ( of the Roma gypsies and Ashkenasim etc etc). If they ever been to Palestine they undoubtedly wold have left ( at leats one person with any of K1 H1 H3 H6m Q , nade none do you understand??) Do you know what nada Not none Never mean?? 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
to itsmejudith, you show your biased perception in this statement of yours (there are good sources that compare the linkage to the area of the Palestinians and one or more Jewish populations), you are hence implying that since palestinians have some of the haplogroups found in CURRENT jews then they are descendents of ancient inhabitants of Palestine!!??? this is utter stupidity!! There is no evidence that Current jews descend from Ancient inhabitants of Palestine other than your perception that they are ( biblical bilief or trusting the media of lies). It should be interpreted the other way around that Current jews have partially some people who descended from ancient inhabitants ! The study of Hammer et al 2000 that caused a stirr is that if two people have the same haplogroups pool does NOT mean that they are related at all, because the same haplogroups are also shared by the palestinians and many many many other nations ( any given Europpean nation ). The question is in the percentage? Jews have 50% of Europpean R while palestinians have #% of this Europpean R!!. Palestinians have 80% of Semitic J1 while CUrrent Jews have ONLY 13% ( less than what the Armenians a non semitic people have of J1 (20%) caused by gene flow from the Arabs who ruled them for a millenia!!! Current jews have R1a1 to Q ratio exactly the same ratio found in Uralic and Altaic populations ( surely who must be same ratio of the ancient Khazar!!) no Q is found in Middle East ( it is the smoking gun of the khazar!) it is Eurasian ( north of the Caucasian mountains). as for women Haplogroups of Ashkenazi K1 the biggest one is not found ever in middle east ( it is only found in Ashkenazim and Roma oeiole of Poland Only ( Khazar were wafons people like gypsies a nation on wheels!) All evidence suggest that both women and men of Jews ( ashkenazim and sephardim at least who are 95% of all current jews) while the situation for Mizrahi jews is much much worse ( they have even less J1 and lots of G Caucasian Medes, and H of Dravidian India!!). The latest Autosomal DNA testing that Bernstein and other DNA researchers thought that won't be available till 2015 at least had started in 2007 and shows that Ashkenazim autosomal profile is next match to Italians and then Russians!!?? with similarity of only 2% to middle eastern populations ( Autosomal testing depend on a good choice of SNPs ( permanent mutations for thousands of years) found in the remaining DNA ( 46 chromosome) other than Y DNA SNPs( male lineage) and female DNA signature ( found in X chromosome). what else do you want to prove that Current jews are lied to by their rabbies that they somehow hold the Abraham lineage ( if not through males, then through females( talk about K1 of the gypsies who are null found in middle east or any where else in the world other than ashkenazim and gypsies!!).
The villana study is stupid because it is made in 2002 but still uses a marker of disease genes! found in all nations of the world, to prove relative between palestinians and jews ( after the fact that STRs of Haplotypes were discovered in mid 80's and SNPs of Haplogroups discovered and categorized in 1998!. Nebet et al and Hammer also used haplotypes instead of Haplogroups in 2000!!! to prove a relation between the two!? even though haplotypes are found across Haplogroups!!!??? ( Haplotype convergence), the stirr caused by these two articles forced Nebet in a follow up study ( ie same data)2001 that JEWS WERE FOUND TO BE MORE SIMILAR TO KURDS AND ARMINIANS of middle east!) than to their ARAB NEIGHBORS (AND EVEN THEIR CO-religionists jews of mizrahi! and Middle Eatern Jews small minorities)( meaning jews resemble their nations of origin more than they resemble each other!!). Finally the comparative studiy of Refero relato says that Arabs are a mix ( not true , since Arabs and particularly Palestinians are the most homogenous people in the world minus chinese and Indonesians and the extinct natives of the Americas. So saying Arabs are a Mix ( compared to what?) J1 is mainly in arabic countries borders and it is the majority of haplogroup in Palestinians ( even only one cluster of Modal Haplotypes of that J1! ((amazing, nothing like that in any other country or nation in the whole wide world [18] click on results page --The Y-Haplogroup J DNA Project- Results section--64-marker Network with Labeled Clusters:
75.72.88.121 ( talk) 15:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It was not a comparative study between jews and kurds. It was a comparative study between jews and Palestinians, but the study found that jews were more similar to non semitic ( non semitic speakers) kurds and armenians than the arabs. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 23:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
For consideration: Gelvin book cover and Khalidi book cover. (removed non-free images per policy) HG | Talk 03:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There are some great images in the article, but several long sections about identity without any images. How about adding the covers to the Khalidi and Gelvin books, which are both prominently mentioned (esp Khalidi) in the text? (See reduced thumbnails.) I think they'll add to the quality of the article, at least for those long prose sections. If you object or have serious concerns, please state your reasoning. Thanks. HG | Talk 15:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree to the two covers because the gelvin picture shows a non palestinian the Israelis who stole their country, I did not see this discussion before, I demand it removed and the picture of khalidi because it gives nothing to the article at all nor the book is famous nor a wiki reader would want to buy it, also the two covers are advertisement to sell books! and make readers be infuenced by the authors of these two books. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of changes to the intro that have not been discussed. They don't (IMHO) siginificantly improve the intro. In fact, they make it more difficult to understand the topic at hand and break with Wiki conventions in that they don't summarize the article, but rather provide a historical backdrop. I'm going to try to restore parts of the old introduction and move some of the material added to the intro into the body (where appropriate) later on tonight. This will take some time. Your patience and support in restoring the lead to match conventions is appreciated. Tiamut talk 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Suddenly Tiamut showed who she really is ( an Insraeli mole prtending to be palestinian so she can write as if she represents palestinians while she is a ctually a mosad. Where in the world do you see TERMS ( with an S highlighted) in those same term written in arabic and english or transliated to english in english pronuciation! Second why take of the flag of Palestine and the map of palestine and the Coat of Arms of Palestine and the 1928 stamp of palestine and the medeival map of jerusalem showing the Dome and other Islamic and chritian monument as is now and shows no jewish things at all! why cut the fact that The helenic empire indeed named the Current day Palestine ( wothout phoenicia of lebanon or with out Jordan or syria as Palestine governate? . For being so anti-palestinian you could not help but cut palestinian identity proofs against what is expected of you as a supposedly a Pro palestinian as you claim in your discusasions. It is thanks to you and the other imposters on palestinians that the article written as from the mouth of a palestinian hate monger rabbi. Hertzel and Jabotinsky could not have done better. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
When you remove all the strong evidence that Palestinians are a Nation ( flag, land, history, historical marks such as Dome of the Rock which stayed unchanged for 1400 years and considered the most beautiful structure on earth, it is obiously you are ant palestinians. and thanks to you and other so called palestinians on this article that the article as it is now could not have written better by Hertzel or Jabotensky if they wanted to!!?? Palestine as name of the same area was first used by The Greek from 330 BC ( why in the world you want to cut that as a palestinian yourself as you claim) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC) identity of people: Land, Folklore (cuisine, sagas, dance music costumes, etc) and heritage ( dome of the rock!, minerates) religion, resistance, historicity of name and area ( palestine name as used by greek for the same area known as palestine now ), etc. So costumes are important for identity! ( in the heart of identity) they are not in the art of the world section (palestinian costumes). You are obviously very educated and supposedly you already know that, but you happen to got an outrage of all this new evidence of identity and your real self resurfaced ( a mossad agent or a person working for the historically illegal state of Israel) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Palestinian people ( Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha'ab il-filastini), Palestinians ( Arabic: الفلسطينيين, al-filastiniyyin), or Palestinian Arabs ( Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني, al-'arabi il-filastini) is a term ( Arabic translation provided)used by Palestinians and Arabic and Muslim world (less than 2 billion people) and the rest of the world, that refers to the Arabic speaking people who were inhabiting Palestine pre the 1948 Arab-Israeli War before a self declared state later known as Israel made of jewish people who were allowed entry into Palestine by the Colonial British Empire between 1918 and 1947. Palestine is better known as the Holy Land "Ardul-Maqdes"(in Arabic) by its natives the Palestinians and the Islamic and Arabic world for the last 1400 years. The area was named Jund-u-Filastine " meaning the "district of Palestine" by the Islamic Khilafate since the 7th century (see Etymology) The Arabs living in Palestine had never had a separated state but Jerusalem and Acre were capitals for the Islamic Khilafate in the 7th century during Umayyad Khalif Sulaiman ibn Abdul-Malik and as a capitol of Great Syria Province during the 19th century respectively. Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was begun to be used by the Arabs at the middle of the 19th century when the Allied powers ( France and Britain )forced the Ottoman Empire to designate the area as Palestine and so that Britain would be given special privilages in Palestine and assigh a special consolate in Palestine.
This doesn't belong in the introduction, none of it is sourced, and it hardly makes any sense. Most of what is relevant is covered in the section on "Etymology". If you feel something is missing or needs restating in the introduction, please make your case for it here before reinserting the same text. Thanks. Tiamut talk 20:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not ignoring your requests.
You deleted referenced materials but you did not provide a reference for your action (major delete) other than a concensus!.
A concensus is not a reference! especially if this concensus is between a buch of anti-palestinians editing a palestinian article.
I a palestinian hereby do not agree to any such concensus
Sincerely
75.72.88.121 (
talk)
20:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The flag map embelm and medeival image are references by themselves! and sources. They are very important to palestinians they should be at top ( hey, like other peoples articles such as Melogenin people of West verginia for god sake (400 people only) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Moving the symbols of Palestinians identity from the top and hiding them in the article is not civil and insult to the palestinians ( I am one of them) as any idiot in the world knows!
My contributions were not degrading the article ( never I put anything unreferenced by a very very powerful reference). Your actions were attack on the palestinians ( ask any stupid person from the street) other than the Wikipedia civilized administrators and or arbitrators and so called mediators.
I would like to hetherto from now on declare that I am against the supposedly -happened in the past concensus!
As an editor that contributed much to wikipedia I challenge any wikipedian or other to bring one of my edits that was not referenced ! The introduction of the article started with attacks on Palestinians and with this ( while palestinians....) Obviously this is a weak introduction lingually. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Images speak better than words! Palestinian flag is older than the Israeli flag. The German Medeival traveller who made a drawing of Jerusalem with minerates and the same Dome of the Rock we see now is obviously not a forger. These items should be at top, and again I repeat that wikipedia treat Palestinians in the same manner as they treat native americans or the Apachi or comanchi people articles ( or the Melonugin people of west virginia of 400 people who got all that plus a DNA section and studies for god sake). I hereby accuse Wikipedia of defaming Palestinians and discriminating against them, as in the arbitration requests jews are requesting restrictions on palestinian articles. like: Here a letter from a wiki to me just now
(As a result of an Arbitration case, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, all articles related to Israel and Palestine and related disputes are placed under broad discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
This message places you on notice that the sanctions apply to your editing of these articles, which is the subject of a current complaint at WP:ANI. At this stage, you are only being informed of the sanctions, however, if may becomes necessary to apply individual sanctions. Addhoc (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)) . Wiki is a not a free encycopedia but -un-free encyclopedia, run by the same people who run the controlled media! Let every body know it 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh Gawd! I wish you would just calm down. This is not a conspiracy. I really do empathize with your frustration. I fully agree that the introduction needs work and that it implies that Palestinian identity is recent and therefore invalid. This was result of compromises struck with other editors who believe there is no such thing as Palestinian people. Perhaps you are right that it needs to be changed. But it can't be changed if all you do is alienate people who want to help you do that.
I too think the emphasis on the recentism of Palestinian identitiy without mentioning their long ties to the land in the introduction is misleading and unfair. But we need to gain consensus for a new version before placing it there unilaterally. Please, please, please do not continue ranting away on these talk pages and accusing people of things they are not doing. Let's try to calm down and find a way to fix the problems. Okay? Tiamut talk 21:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to change the second paragraph to read as follows (change marked in bold):
While the first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [23] their attachment to and residency in the land dates back many centuries, and for some, millenia. The first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [24] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state. [23]
The reason for this change is that the introduction as written placed WP:UNDUE emphasis on the recentism of Palestinian national identity. All modern-day national identities are constructs. There is no need to unduly emphasize this in the introduction without balancing it with other POVs. By mentioning the fact that while Arabs in Palestine did not refer to themselves as Palestinians, they did reside in the land and were attached to it for centuries and in some cases millenia, I believe this problem can be solved.
Thoughts? Alternate suggestions? Thanks. Tiamut talk 22:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The introduction as ( while palestinians etc) is strange. you should start the article about the palestinians by defining them: Palestinians are the people who were living in palestine before they were deported (or ran away in majority ) from their homeland after the 1948 war.
So palestinians are the descendents of those people who left palestine in 1948. it is very simple concise and impossible to refute. people who have family relations in palestine there are many syrians and arabs who fit this and are not palestinians. many people immigrated from Palestine through the ages they are not palestinians in the strict word. Palestinians come from the word palestine ( a land area) meaning the people living in palestine. Palestine was named based on a sea people who resided briefly in Ashkelon area and then left by sea. However the word Palestine was first used officially by the greek to refer to the exact palestine area, they named it such because they reminescenting about palestinians ( sea people who were of greek origin -sea people are greek themsleves) that is why when the romans kicked the Greek they renamed the area Syria ( in remembering the assyrians a more closely related to romans ( being they are the same ancient trojans-romans came from troy according to homer and herodotus (kingdom of Lydia near by the assyrians) It is not essential that a nation should have the same name . Ie it is not the name that defines a people but other many things ( their claiming that, solidarity among themselves, folklore, residing in one place for a long time, establishing a governemnt ( palestinians did establish state states since the phoenicians and were considered a different separate governate during the Greek empire ( pan nationalities empire). For example native americans don't like to be called red indians, or they did not know they were being called red indians by others! but the word Red indian does not define who they are as a people, and if they refused to be called red indians they are still a people! got my drift. So emphasyzing on the name is falacious, and misleading and conspiratorious. The Palestinians were known to themselves as Holylanders ( maqdesites) . All the world called that area and its people Holy land and Holylanders, so where is the problem, if they decided to call themselves Palestine and Palestinians when they were planning to free themselves from the british between the two world wars. we should mention that palestinians call themselves holylanders and maqdisites. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 22:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Pu the difinition of palestinians at the top: the people who lived in palestine before its occupation by the british the sworn enemies historically of the palestinians ( Richard the Lion Heart killed 10000 palestinians in the third crusade) how about this for introduction. British occupation of palestine is illegal and was resisted by palestinians ( uprisings of 1920 and 1936), hence any people brought during british occupation are not considered palestinian ( 1917-1947) a thirty year period of History ( estimated at 6000 years of written history) Just difinition according to palestinian authority. A difinition according to enemies of palestine like israelites and british are not accepted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 23:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
As you can see tiamut you were doing bad job protecting the artcile from lies, as you can see from my recent new edits ( Herodotus separated palestine from the Phoenicians who Sidon was their capital according to Herodotus ! and he was talking about the coast line of the sea of the greek ( the Mediterranean) so where is Palestine of Herodotus between Phoenicia and Egypt? Let me think? could it be the same Palestine of our days? Eurika I found it, I just made a great cognetive feat since Herodotus (Not!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 05:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Secondly there were no philistines ( the sea people of aegean ) in 450 time of Herodotus! neither Herodotus talkes about syrian palestinians or palestina syrians. He clearly separated Palestine as a land mass opens to the sea south of the Phoenicians, the philistines only stayed briefly for 300 years. The mention of Pphilistines in Bible at the time of Abraham is a forgery as the Bible text critique contend, and I am not sure if they were encountered by Joshua. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
And again, I agree with Tiamut that there is no reason to be so hesitant about the Palestinian nationality issue if the same doesnt apply to every other page discussing nationalities. Funkynusayri ( talk) 08:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing about consensus in wiki rules, just bring references ( two if strange claim) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It is not about the borders of Palestine through history Its about the NAME of palestine through history. This is the contensios issue that took almost over everything from the introduction, the zionists or anti-palestinians are winning saying that Palestine as name only came with the British and was used rather by the Jewish illegal residents than Palestinian themselves, and you are trying misorably to make concensus with them about the existance of Palestinians just because of the name.
I have explained that the name does not matter, what matters is the characteritics of a nation not the name!
The Jews used a name for their state Israel, from the Bible and was used only on a small part of Palestine ( the northen kingdom of Israel which lasted less than a hundred years!)
Not to mention that the CURRENT Contemporary jews are NOT descendents from the Ancient Israelites ( neither of Israel or Judea kingdoms, go figure)
this is according to the undisputable DNA studies findings that were finalized to a final conclusion at the end of 2007 ( after making great numbers of Jews test for Aurosomal DNA which was the last straw for them to expose their lies and that they are but the descendents of the Khazars ( who lived in the Land of Gog ang Magog) hence they are the Gog and Magog predicted by Prophet Ezekiel 38-40 that they will take over the mountains of Israel ( the land of God not the people of God since the latter were finished according to God covenant that they broke) simply by impostering the name Israel. with just a name they got them a country and inheritance!, and as you know the palestinians had a parallel name the Maqdisties ( people of the Holy Land). Every body knows this land as the holy land not Israel!.
Borders of Palestine are unique to make any people living inside the borders a unique different nation. adding to that the many characteristics of a nation ( folklore most important, land with harsh borders ( Golan Hights, rigid South Lebanon, The Low land of The Dead Sea Desert( Seir desert) and the wirst deser of them all the south.
finally the sea to the west.
You can't find such formidable seclision like this.
I want to add the historical schools ( religious and others) but I can't remember the names, can you help?
this is a very imporatnt part. I know that the crusaders killed 20000 in the Aqsa mosque who were strangers coming just for learning so what was the name of that school, and other libraries names?
And why you deleted 1920 uprising ( just 2 years after the british invasion).Your writing about the 1936 sounds like an insurgency in which the natives got disappointed!? that was not true, since the resistance started right away. Qawiqji started his military attackes in about that time with others. Palestinians killed many British soldiers ( 100s in 1920 and 10000 in 1936, so the palestinians were fighting as a real resistance ( and the body count of both sides testify) and the British were not Mandate since the mandate came After the invasion!!!!!!!!! that after they won the war 1918 they as the victors and the strongest in the so called leage of nations arranged that so called mandate ( ie they got orders from the leage of nations after the fact they already invaded), they even assigned a crooked heretic ( Agha Khan ) who himself could not get a country for himself in the Islamic lands because he was so hated by muslims and he becomes the representive of the muslims! and even the head of the League!! and assign Britain!!! to rule the muslims, talk about his unique powers of his: he could not rule a chunk of muslim land even with the help of the British, but he can order Britain and mandate her on Palestine (the British being so gentile and table mannered and could not eat the prey before taking a symbolic permission from the PREY!! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Gelvin 92
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
It is worth to mention that after the Roman expel the Jews they changed the name from Judea to Palestine. 87.69.77.82 18:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
On the current edit skirmish on the intro - a magazine article by a non-expert cannot be considered an RS for such a claim. We need another source - an academic source, that is, by an expert in the field (political science, I guess). I'm sure it won't be hard to find - it's not a very contentious claim. okedem 21:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not the author's claim, it's the claim in the book he is reviewing by Rashid Khalidi, who is extensively quoted in this article and is a reocgnized authority on the subject. Stoip deleting it. Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have a problem including Samaritans if we could show that a significant portion have citizenship, since this is an issue of national identification. We shouldn't be using various rhetoric as a substitute though, something which is even clearer in the case of Druze and Jews. As far as I know, there are no Druze settlements in the West Bank, while those in Israel make a point of serving in the military. The Golan Heights have nothing to do with Palestinians, and those Druze identify with Syria. I recall that all this was discussed months ago though... Tewfik Talk 18:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Armon, can you give me the source for the claim that "Palestinians" is the "most common term" for the subject of this article? Thanks, -- G-Dett ( talk) 23:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
– Only 16 percent said their sympathies lay with the Palestinians, compared to 45 percent for Israel...
– A stalemate in negotiations may lead Israel and the Palestinians to write up separate statements detailing their political agendas ahead of the U.S.-led peace conference...
– The fate of some 3.5 million Palestinian refugees across the Arab world is one of the toughest issues in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. ...
Evidence. Even if you can argue the toss about the use of the term 60% of the time, the remaining 40% of 17,400 is still more than for the "Palestinian people" phrase -and that's without arguing the toss regarding those results. There is also Google News, where we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> ( talk) 19:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have re-added the section on ARAB leaders who state that the so-called "Palestinian People" do not exist. This is necessary because the attempt to only quote Golda Meir is a transparent attempt to paint Golda Meir and the State of Israel as racist and thus violates the NPOV standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricalReality ( talk • contribs) 14:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
This addition to the "Palestinian People" article is an attempt to discuss and determine the extent to which there is , was or will ever be any peoples known as the palestinians.
How many Shia Muslim Palestinians are there if any (not counting Druze)? Funkynusayri 00:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
per this rev - [1].
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 01:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
suggestion - i suggest we break this subsection to two and regroup the arguments succinctly so that we could maybe raise compromises or ask for a 3rd opinion (from uninvolved users) on the issues. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 00:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Could just say "few hundred". <<-armon->> ( talk) 10:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The word nation, (throughout the article), and the source say explicitly:
"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."
Please provide evidence that states that "Palestinians are a nation" is "disputed". In other words, please provide sources for your assertion that this well-sourced piece of information is incorrect or in dispute. Until then, the information stays. Indeed, it is required per WP:LEAD Tiamut 22:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This quote firmly establishes that those who deny that Palestinians constitute a nation are a fringe minority. Tiamut 13:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."
Note to IronDuke as well, from another review of Khalidi's work:
It is Khalidi's central thesis that Palestinian identity, far from being a product of the 1947-49 nakba was in fact constructed over a long period of time, most importantly during the nineteenth century. While this claim should hardly be surprising to serious students of the evolution of Arab identities, it is one that needs to be reiterated because of the persistent denial of the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism or even the existence of the Palestinians as a distinct people. On the one hand, this denial is absolute, as in Golda Meir's notorious remark that the Palestinians did not exist, or Joan Peters's more recent tendentious (and largely fraudulent) book claiming that the Palestinian Arabs were predominantly if not exclusively recent immigrants from neighboring regions. Indeed, it is a sad comment on the state of at least popular discussions of the Arab-Israeli conflict that Khalidi, writing after the official Israeli acknowledgement of Palestinian national aspirations and recognition of the PLO as their representative in the 1993 Oslo accords, is forced to refute the spurious claims of From Time Immemorial.
As I said before, those contesting the inclusion of this verifiable, accurate and reliably sourced information attesting to Palestinians constituting a nation are asked to provide a source (other than From Time Immemorial) that says that they are not. Tiamut 23:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is insane. I am trying to have a source-based discussion with you, not solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While related to the subject matter at hand in this article, it is not even the subject of this article. The subject of this article is a nation of people who call themselves Palestinian people. I have provided you sources and the article itself attests to the fact that most of the world recognizes them as a nation (not to be confused with nation-state. You have (so far) provided nothing but platitudes. Please focus on the task at hand. Tiamut 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
First off, Tiamut, I think your quote from Khalidi more or less makes my point. Nowhere does he say “nation”, but instead talks of “national aspirations.” That can only mean that they are not yet a nation, if I understand the word “aspire” (and I believe I do). But you asked for sources, which is fair enough.
And I believe there are quite a few more.
I think one difficulty we’re having here is semantic. If we want to say that “Nation” means sovereign government, then “Palestine” fails. If we want to use it in the more lyrical sense of group of persons who consider themselves a people, then I think a powerful argument can be made for its use. The difficulty is, the reader isn’t going to be able to determine what sense we’re using it in if we put it in the lead like that. If someone wants to make up a “Nation” header and discuss these issues under it, that might be a good thing. But we shouldn't put a controversial, confusing statement up front in the lead. IronDuke 01:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"1: national character 2: nationalism 1 3 a: national status; specifically : a legal relationship involving allegiance on the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the state b: membership in a particular nation 4: political independence or existence as a separate nation 5 a: a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state b: an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (as a nation)" [5] Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tiamut and Eleland. Yes, there are some Zionists past and present who assert that Palestinians don't constitute a people or a nation, just as there are various Arab nationalists, pan-nationalists, and extremists who claim Israel isn't a state but an "entity." Big deal. Wikipedia currently deals with that "dispute" by describing Israel as a state in Israel, and having a separate article on the deniers' terminology, " Zionist entity." Something like that could work here too. Perhaps a separate article called No such thing as Palestinians.
At any rate, the section on self-identifying terms in Wikipedia's policy on naming conflicts settles this dispute definitively. The fact that there have been and still are voices who deny Palestinian nationhood can be noted in this article or another, per consensus.-- G-Dett ( talk) 01:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Names can sometimes be controversial because of perceived negative political connotations, historical conflicts or territorial disputes. However, Wikipedia does not take sides in a political controversy or determine what is something or someone's true, proper name. What this encyclopedia does, rather, is to describe the controversy. (bolding in original)
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.
This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.
As did I. It's a simple case of a violation of NPOV which is a non-negotiable core policy. <<-armon->> ( talk) 08:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Ironduke is correct about much of what he's saying, and he's clearly approaching this in a reasonable way, but Tiamut is quite right that he continues to blur the distinction between nations and nation-states. His point about "no clear boundaries, no capital as such, no army, no embassies, etc." is the most obvious example. I think the guideline on self-identifying terms clearly applies here; but it should also be noted that even in the academic literature "nation" is established through self-identification (Benedict Anderson's Imaginary Communities is probably the most important and influential text on nation-formation in modernity). If large numbers of Palestinians contested that identification, there would be an NPOV problem. Referring to a Lebanese "nation" would be an NPOV problem for precisely this reason – many Lebanese see themselves as part of a "greater Syria," while others see themselves as "Phoenicians," and look to Europe for their cultural orientation. But Palestinians both Sunni and Christian see themselves as tightly bound by a common history and a collective future, and the skepticism of outsiders is neither here nor there – both with regards to Wikipedia policy and to the anthropological definition of nationhood. That the likes of Hafez al-Assad on the one hand and Benjamin Netanyahu on the other have found reason to contest the existence of a Palestinian nation is interesting and notable, but it has no bearing whatsoever – with respect to NPOV or any other policy – on our use of the term.
This leads us to Armon and 6SJ7's ongoing confusion, which is of a very different order from Ironduke's casual and colloquial conflation of nation and nation-state. There is an important distinction between the notability and reliability of a claim, which Armon and 6SJ7 persist in ignoring. It is notable that certain figures – say, Zionists and pan-Arab nationalists – deny Palestinian nationhood, but their claims aren't reliable for either the definition of "nation" or the existence of a Palestinian nation. In exactly the same way, it is notable that various Arab leaders past and present have refused to recognize Israel as a state and insist instead that it's an "entity" in a temporary sense; but this position is not a reliable one to be factored in to an NPOV presentation of Israel's status.-- G-Dett ( talk) 15:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Michael Palin: An argument isn't just contradiction.
John Cleese: It can be.
Michael Palin: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
John Cleese: No it isn't.
Michael Palin: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
John Cleese: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Michael Palin: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: No it isn't!
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause) John Cleese: No it isn't.
the page is locked (because editors refused to resolve disputes properly) so we've now degenerated onto a revert war on the talk page? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 06:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Why so resistant to use such an obviously appropriate term to describe the subject of this article?
And why so resistant to this eminently mainstream source, Salon (magazine): Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of "the other 22 Arab states," most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own.
It clearly indicates the mainstream usage of of nation to refer to Palestinians as distinct from nation-state is widely understood.
It's Orwellian to omit the word nation when the entire Palestinian struggle for self-determination has been a national one, widely acknolwedged throughout the world. Why deny reality? Tiamut 19:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett, your arguments above are very nicety written; indeed, it is almost worth arguing with you merely for the sake of your lucid prose. Delightful as it is, however, it does not remedy that 1) you’ve sauntered casually past some of my arguments above and 2) you’ve muddled the argument that you did take up. To wit:
You think I’ve blurred the distinction between nation and nation-state? Try looking at what the reverters are reverting to when they insert the word nation back into the text. First line: “A nation is a form of cultural or social community.’ Do the Palestinians fit this? Yeah, sure, I guess—why not? So does Raider Nation. Helpful? Next sentence: “Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism.” Um… what? Assuming that sentence had any useful meaning, who is it that asserts the ideas contained in it? Source? Later on we have, “Past events are framed in this context; for example; by referring to "our soldiers" in conflicts which took place hundreds of years ago.” Were there conflicts in, say 1800 that involved the ancestors of people living in the territories today, and did those people call themselves Palestinian and/or think of themselves as a Nation. (I will award special bonus points to anyone who tries to assert that the Philistines were the ancestors of today’s Palestinians). Later we have, “A nation is usually the people of a state…” Well, not in this case. Then we have “In the strict sense, terms such as nation, ethnos, and 'people' (as in 'the Danish people') denominate a group of human beings.”
As I read that sentence, awkward as it is, it makes me realize that folks on this page are arguing that the Palestinians are a nation in that exact sense conveyed by the title of the article, “Palestinian people.” The Palestinians are a people, the article already conveys this, why add a confusing, contentious word with multiple meanings?
Also, I will reintroduce my earlier argument, as no one seems to have dealt with it. The quote in the footnote of the “Nation” version of the article says, “most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation…” And this is from who? Jonathan Shainin? Is he a "top-tier” source on Israel/Palestine? And again, the article begins with, “Rashid Khalidi explains why Palestinians have failed to create a nation.” Is it possible that Shainin does not agree with the header of his own article? Barely, though it’s far more likely that, had he disagreed with it, he would have had it removed. So what we have now, based on Khalidi’s rejection of Palestinian nationhood, and the sources I’ve brought, is a strong argument for specifically disavowing that the Palestinians comprise a nation—and doing so in the lead. I’m not making this argument, of course, but I think it’s fair to say that use of the word “Nation” in the lead is misleading at best, and at worst violates WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:LEAD, WP:UNDUE, and WP:SERIOUSLY, WHY IS THIS SUCH A HUGE DEAL?.
And once again: I am not conflating “nation” and “nation state”: the people inserting the word nation into the article are. IronDuke 18:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
IronDuke, the Palestinians do meet every reasonable definition of a nation. If you review the discussion in Archive 11 on the RfC for this issue, you will see that of the different definitions offered, Palestinians were judged to fit every one. The only definition they fail to qualify for is not nation, but rather nation-state, which you continually seem to be confusing here. A paucity of familiarity on the part of some Wikipedia readers with the scholarship on nationhood, should not prevent us from using a term. It only means that we must bettert explain it. There are many good sources on this subject, many of which are already cited throughout the article. Indeed, it is impossible to speak of Palestinian nationalism without acknowledging that Palestinians are a nation. You can't be nationalistic if you do not share a sense of national identity with others; i.e. constitute a nation. Please review the discussion in Archive 11 under the RfC sub-heading (not the first one of whether or not Palestinians constitute a people, but the second oneon whether the fact that they constitute a nation can be mentioned in the lead.) And about wit, unfortunately, I have the very direst sense of humour, appreicated only by me. Tiamut 21:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
"The purpose of this book is to overcome these impediments, in order to explain how a strong sense of Palestinian national identity developed in spite of, and in some cases because of, the obstacles it faced."(6)
and,
"The Palestinians, of course, do have one asset in spite of everything: a powerful sense of national identity, which we have seen they were able to develop and maintain inspite of extradordinary vicissitudes."(205)
"...a Palestininan identity has asserted itself and survived against all odds, and in spite of the many failures we have touched on. Dulles said in the 1950s that the Palestinians would disappear, and Golda Meir spoke in 1969 as if they had disappeared, going so far as to declare that they never existed in the first place. But they have not disappeared, and even their most determined opponents seem to have begun to reconcile themselves to this uncomfortable fact. For these opponents, whether Israel, or some Arab states or the great powers, the nonexistence of the Palestinians would have made things considerably easier at various stages of history. But inconvenient though their identity has often been for others, the Palestinians have remained stubbornly attached to it. This probably must be adjudged a success, although it is a small one.
Rashidi ends the book by stating that it remains to be seen whether the world will "finally allow the achievement of self-determination, statehood, and national independence the modern world has taught us is the 'natural state' of peoples with an independent national identity like the Palestinians." Tiamut 23:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
A book review of Rashid Khalidi on Salon.com is a poor and partisan source for a consensus claim such as this. See WP:ASF and WP:RS The cite itself notes that there remains some dispute -which we know to be true, like it or not. It's unnecessary to "bang the point home" because the third paragraph addresses the issue perfectly well. See Let the facts speak for themselves
<<-armon->> 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Such a definition of national identity also sets it clearly apart from any conception of the state. The latter refers exclusively to public institutions, differentiated from, and autonomous of, other social institutions and exercising a monopoloy coercion and extraction within a given territory. The nation, on the other hand, signifies a cultural and political bond, uniting in a single political community all who share an historic culture and homeland.
In fact, nations, like states, are a contingency, and not a universal necessity. Neither nations nor states exist at all times and in all circumstances. Moreover, nations and states are not the same contingency. Nationalism holds that they were destined for each other; that either without the other is incomplete and constitutes a tragedy. But before they could become intended for each other, each of them had to emerge, and their emergence was independent and contingent. (p.6, Gellner's emphasis)
This is all completely beside the point. We can argue the relative merits of any number of points of view on the "nation" question but it doesn't matter. There are obvious differences in perspective on this question which can be reliably sourced and which we aren't tasked with sorting out. NPOV requires us to not take sides, and not present opinion as fact. Very simple. <<-armon->> ( talk) 22:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
..."notable denial" and "reliable denial" is a false distinction which only begs the question. It's easy to find the difference of opinion on the "nation" question published in reliable sources. Who some WP editors consider to be correct is irrelevant. <<-armon->> ( talk) 09:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The answer is: There are different opinions on this depending whom you talk to. From those who say that the Palestinians are a nation; there are:
All of these positions and some; are reflected in the above discussion by its Wikipedians and sources brought down (thanks to IronDuke). We as Wikipedians can't know for sure who belongs where on this heated issue; so we'll have to give almost everybody here the "benefit of the doubt" that they belong to the second of the list. That isn't to say that it is so; just that we'll pretend that it is so.
Wikipedians don't get to decide if Palestinians are a nation; and even if they do decide, it only becomes their own personal opinion; therefore Wikipedians aren't given the task to decide that, only to report on it. Those that want WP to state in the lead their view that Palestinians are a nation; need to prove that another significant opinion doesn't exist. I guess, first we are going to fight on what "significant" means; then we'll fight what "is" is. Have fun!
Remember regardless what your position is; the question is not if the "Palestinians are a nation", that is not for us to decide; the question is: should this article censure the view held by Arabs and Jews; Muslims and Christians; then and now, that the "Palestinians are not a nation. Itzse ( talk) 23:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Itzse, you've said you don't have time for Khalidi, very well. Do you have time for Hobsbawm? Anderson? Do you have any time whatsoever for any of the literature on nations and nation-formation? Because your posts here, passionate and articulate as they are, do not show any fluency or even familiarity with the terms you're arguing about. It's like you're on the Tomato talk page arguing that it's not for Wikipedia to say whether tomatoes are fruits or vegetables, because lots of folks think of them as the latter. There is a difference between lay impressions, casual and vernacular classifications etc. on the one hand, and concrete terms from the disciplines of history, political science, etc. on the other. NPOV with regards to claims of fact is not achieved by throwing the two into a blender and serving up the resulting slop.
If you take away some of the insinuating and patronizing rhetoric ("the Palestinian Arabs have become smarter" etc.), the gist of what you say about "a new strategy of creating a country called Palestine for a 'Palestinian people'" is correct. Where you then go totally off the map is in imagining that identifying the role of such strategies somehow undermines the claim to nationhood. It doesn't. Not in the slightest. This is an extremely common fallacy, one that virtually every historian of nations and nation-formation has underscored: the misconception that nations arise from a deep primordial past, and that if you can point either to the recent-ness of the idea that such-and-such people constitute a nation, or to the role of political or strategic calculation in their formation as such, then you've undermined their claim to nation-ness. Anderson described this fallacy memorably by comparing "the objective modernity of nations to the historian's eye vs. their subjective antiquity in the eyes of nationalists" (excuse me for repeating that quote, but you do not appear to have read the talk page you claim to summarize). And Hobsbawm said "I cannot but add that no serious historian of nations and nationalism can be a committed political nationalist...Nationalism requires too much belief in what is patently not so." Renan said even more memorably that "getting its history wrong is part of being a nation." Hobsbawm expanded on Renan's insight in a book called Invented Traditions, saying that these inventions (which is what you're describing as a "stategy," Itzse) are not only not disqualifying with regards to nation-ness; they are in fact constitutive of it. And in a famous passage he invoked Israel and Palestine as paradigmatic examples of this:
In this connection, one specific interest of “invented traditions” for, at all events, modern and contemporary historians ought to be singled out. They are highly relevant to that comparatively recent historical innovation, the “nation,” with its associated phenomena: nationalism, the nation-state, national symbols, histories and the rest. All these rest on exercises in social engineering which are often deliberate and always innovative, if only because historical novelty implies innovation. Israeli and Palestinian nationalism or nations must be novel, whatever the historic continuities of Jews or Middle Eastern Muslims, since the very concept of territorial states of the currently standard type in their region was barely thought of a century ago, and hardly became a serious prospect before the end of World War I.
What is interesting about this is that Hobsbawm does not introduce Israeli and Palestinian nationalisms as outliers, as stragglers just making it over the qualifying bar to join the family of nations. Quite the contrary, he seizes upon the very recentness, regional contingency, and strategic willfulness that characterized their nation-formation precisely to make a point about the historicity and indeed the inventedness of nations in general. Nations, as Anderson puts it, are "historical artifacts."
Is this coming through, Itzse? Saying that 100 years ago there was no Palestinian nation, or that they’ve just formed a nation as part of a reaction against Israel in the last 50 years, doesn’t even put a dent in their accepted status as a nation today. What would put a dent in that status would be a claim from a source reliable in the relevant field(s) arguing that for reasons X, Y, and Z Palestinians do not constitute a nation as that term is properly used. So far, not a single such claim has been brought forward.-- G-Dett ( talk) 18:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
6SJ7, have you read the article at all? I only ask because what you are asking to be done has already been done. There is an entire subsection devoted to the process by which Palestinian nationhood emerged and was defined (See Palestinian people#Emergent Nationalism(s)). Further, the third paragraph of the introduction reads:
The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[2] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[3] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state.[2]
Thus far, no reliable scholarly sources have been provided that establish that Palestinians are not a nation (as the term is used in scholarship). Everytime an editor asks for such a source to be produced, the reply is equivocation, rhetoric, and tangential argumentation. Please produce scholarly sources that you would like to see represented in the article and we can work together on including them. If we find that there is a significant body of scholarship that denies that Palestinians are a nation, we can then reevaluate the appropriateness of placing the simple sentence "Palestinians are a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine". Until then, this is an honest, WP:NPOV reflection of the scholarship has to stay, indeed its central to the subject of Palestinian identity as established throughout the article, and per [WP:LEAD]] it should be included in the introduction. Tiamut 19:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
comment - "the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people" =national movement && !=nation. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
All the reliable sources provided thus far support the idea that Palestinians are a nation. The arguments offered by the minority of editors on this page against the usage of the term are quite frankly uncompelling. I have to agree with CasualObserver48 here: we should be using the term nation, and not people. The title of the article is Palestinian people and the first sentence should read: Palestinian people is a term used to refer to a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. This is not controversial, despite the persistent and vocal protests of a minority of editors who have not invoked any sound policy based reasons to ignore reliable sources, WP:NPOV, and WP:LEAD. The essence of Palestinian identity is rooted in the struggle of the national liberation movement. Indeed, it is this quest that is a defining charateristic of this community of people. As Rashid Khalidi explains in his book on Palestinian Identity: The Palestinians, of course, do have one asset in spite of everything: a powerful sense of national identity, which we have seen they were able to develop and maintain inspite of extradordinary vicissitudes."(205)
Are we going to deny the reader the facts because of the obstinate refusal of some editors to concede the use of the most appropriate term to describe the subject of this article? Wikipedia is not censored. If even one of the editors here responded to the request for a reliable scholarly source that refutes that Palestinians are a nation, I could have taken their opposition seriously. Unfortunately, this request has been repeatedly ignored and we have wasted everyone's time by entering into a circuituous debate that elides basic Wiki policies. Enough is enough. Provide a source that indicates that thers is a split in the scholarly community that warrants omitting nation from the lead. Failing that, I am unwilling to ignore facts to placate a fringe minority sensitivity. Tiamut 18:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- from Basque people (italics added): This article discusses the Basques as an ethnic group or, as some view them, a nation, in contrast to other ethnic groups living in the Basque area.
- from Catalans: The Catalans are an ethnic group or nationality whose homeland is Catalonia, or the Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: Catalunya, or Principat de Catalunya), which is a historical region in southern Europe, embracing a territory situated in the north-east of Spain and an adjoining portion of southern France.
- from Kurdish people: The Kurds are an ethnic group who are indigenous to a region often referred to as Kurdistan, an area that includes adjacent parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.
Never mind, never mind, I just looked over the sources and comments above. can we instead use the phrase "some sources claim" somewhere in the opening paragraph? Even palestinian sources disagree about use of the word "nation" as shown by moshein and others above. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 22:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
(ec) As you know, Steve, I prefer to play a facilitating rather than substantive role here. But I did glance at the Nexis newspaper database. Search for for {Palestinian w/1 nation} yields more than 3000 hits. So then these need to be evaluated. For instance, I see Intl Her Trib quoting Peres, Jer Post quoting Elazar Granot, everybody quoting various Arab leaders, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Said op-eds in Wash Post, etc. Lots of chaff to filter out (including using nation in the sovereign state meaning). A few sources that deny the descriptor, too. Anyway, plenty of data to shed light on this dispute in a very grounded and substantive manner. The work awaits. HG | Talk 22:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I've wrote some stuff from Khalidi's The Iron Cage into something I'dd like to add to this article in a new section The Palestinian people during the msndate:
-- JaapBoBo ( talk) 10:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. this talk page is quiet lately. however, no one has actually declared a consensus yet. do we have a coinsensus emerging yet or not? If so, we should request unprotection. if not, we should request mediation. I would prefer to obtain unprotection, and then go back to editing this the customary way; there can be contention, but there are established processes for allowing differeing opinions to gradually find agreed-upon text. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 20:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well I don't know if we've had some kind of meeting of minds that we're actually going to abide by NPOV, but if so, we can WP:ASF, drop the "nation" issue, and finally move on... <<-armon->> ( talk) 02:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm not one of the parties in the mediation, but I would like to have this page unprotected. Is that possible? -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 20:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Mediation rejated due to non-agreement by Armon. Armon, I'm not sure how that benefits anyone. could you please explain.
I am copying over a discussion by Armon from the mediation talk page. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 12:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I've rejected this because there's been more than enough discussion and the proponents of using WP voice to settle the matter is a clear violation of NPOV. I don't see the point of this because core WP policy is non-negotiable and the proponents of the violation should know that by now. This is really just wasting everybody's time. <<-armon->> ( talk) 06:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
As one of the responders for Wikipedia:Third opinion, I have taken this request to respond to. But I will not offer a third opinion. This is for a couple of reasons, not the least of which that there is adequate, sustained debate between more than two people. So this dispute does not warrant a third opinion as I see it applying (if I am wrong please let me know and I will offer my opinion). Another problem I see with rendering a third opinion is that there is sufficient evidence that my opinion, regardless of which side it falls to, would be ignored. Both sides, and plenty of citations, have been presented but no one has tried to seek a middle ground. I don't have much hope that my feeble attempt would inspire what legions have failed to accomplish. And, last but not least, I don't think this is a solvable problem at our level. As has been noted above, this is akin to solving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict itself, which just isn't going to happen here. I must respectfully bow out of this debate. If you wish to repost on 3O feel free. I have had this argument before, both with people that agree with my point of view and with those that don't, and I've never seen anybody change their mind. I honestly can't see this getting resolved other than by WP decree or it actually being settled in reality. My apologies to those of you stuck in it's midst. Padillah ( talk) 13:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The current 3rd paragraph of the lead already does address the issue perfectly adequately, and neutrally. It states:
That is an example of showing, not telling. However, the faction demanding the insertion of POV either don't understand, or are not content, to abide by policy. <<-armon->> ( talk) 20:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Boy, has this gotten confusing. I just want to point out a few things:
Getting a little lost in the muddle here, but in response to Steve – yes, thanks, that's more or less it. "Nation" is amply supported both by the scholarly and historical literature (both on the concept of nations and nationalism generally and on Palestinian nationalism in particular), and appears to be denied only in a rhetorical and non-technical sense by political figures; as I've indicated in previous phases of this discussion, this denial of Palestinian nationhood – like the denial of Israeli statehood by various Arab figures, which is its mirror-image – appears to be encyclopedically notable but not encyclopedically reliable. But I don't think Padillah is talking at cross-purposes at all. We're both making the distinction between what's arguably justifiable for the lead, vs. what is necessary and wise, and opting for the latter; and we're both suggesting that this article ought to look to parallel articles such as French people, British people, etc. for a model; and we're both saying the lead should indicate its collective subject while deferring the discussion of "nation" as a term til later in the article.-- G-Dett ( talk) 21:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
First, I'd like to thank everyone that helped in this discussion. It was a little long and winding but it looks like we have two sides to an issue here so I'll try and sum them up for a vote. Either we accept the initial paragraph as it stands (quirkyness and all, difficult subjects make for difficult reading) or we submit a new lead to this talk page for discussion. I would encourage boldness but this subject is too controversial and this would only open the article up to endless edit wars (again). So, Same or Different and let's see if we can't come to an agreement. Padillah ( talk) 13:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Enter votes below. (enter any comments on process here in this section, if desired).
This proposed version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) would state: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
This proposed version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) would state: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to a nation of Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
The current version of the first sentence (with translations omitted) states: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."
I've been thinking a lot about G-Dett's argument regarding " guidelines on self-identifying terms". It clearly states that "Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name". With that in mind it's hard to refute referring to them as a nation. the guideline brings up a very valid point that not using "nation" because some people object to it is the POV situation. This seems to address the arguments against using "nation" and would free us up to continue editing the article with real content. I need solid refutation.
The Palestinian leaders have referred to themselves as a "Palestinian nation" so we are beholden to respect them and refer to them the same way. Do you think we could expand this attitude to encompass a state-of-being? Padillah ( talk) 20:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Just checking in to say I'm happy to see some movement here; we're lucky to have two skilled negotiators (HG and Padillah) and so many fair-minded editors (Iron Duke, Tiamut, Steve, 6SJ7, et al) – maybe collaboration here can be a model for other pages in the grip of similar disputes. I want to comment briefly on a couple points of fact and then let the discussion continue. Steve, "Palestine" is indeed recognized by the United Nations and has a representative there. They also have stamps, for what that's worth, and increasingly, "a country" (insofar as "Palestine" in common international parlance today refers to the West Bank and Gaza strip collectively, not only because these are commonly seen as comprising the legitimate future territory of a state, but also because this is where the Palestinians have their seats of local and national government). But – at the risk of repeating myself – when we measure their nation-ness by such criteria as stamps, uniforms, elected officials, territory and sovereignty and so on, we are blurring the conceptual distinction between nations and states, which is a crucial one for every major scholar of the subject.
Our central problem here seems to arise from the fact that "nation" has both a rigorously defined usage within scholarship and a loose and blurry vernacular currency. That the Palestinian people constitutes a "nation" according to the term's strict definition – which is sharply distinguished from that of "state" – is not contested by any reliable source I know of. Indeed, precisely because the birth of "nations" in the eyes of scholars and historians is seen as the product of modern political and historical contingencies, recent national formations such as those of Israelis and Palestinians are not borderline cases for inclusion but rather model paradigms ( Hobsbawm makes this point, as noted above). The vernacular sense of "nation" is however much more blurry and protean, as the definitions in "The Free Dictionary" (linked to by Iron Duke) suggest. I think it would not be an overstatement to say that every single instance of an editorial clash about Palestinian "nation"-hood on this talk page involves an editor using the term in its technical sense pitted against an editor using it in its vernacular sense.
A final comment about "self-identifying terms." The WP guideline would seem to apply here; indeed the example provided in the text of that guideline seems almost tailor-made to the terms of our dispute. But it's also important to realize that the term "nation" (I'm referring to its rigorously defined sense) is itself "self-identifying": as Hugh Seton-Watson put it (in a candidly tautological definition built upon by Anderson in his seminal book on nation-formation) , "A nation exists when a significant number of people in a community consider themselves to form a nation, or behave as if they formed one." With all due respect to IronDuke, there's nothing "willy-nilly" about this process of nation-formation; it requires national myths, national narratives, a national discourse and a national image, and it requires institutions (media institutions, most importantly) to disseminate all these. It is in short as measurable and documentable as the process of state-formation, and in the Palestinian case, the process has been copiously measured, documented, and analyzed.-- G-Dett ( talk) 18:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
If only this were the German Wikipedia, we could have Volksgemeinschaft—national community and Staatsgemeinschaft—state community. Nations are both peoples and states in English and realistically one can only try to insure that edits imply the proper flavor. To that end, you might consider referring to a potential Palestinian country as "Palestinian nation-state" whereas "Palestinian nation" then unambiguously refers to the people. — PētersV ( talk) 21:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Padillah that resolution of this issue will be easier if we can decide whether the self-identifying guideline applies. However, I think I disagree with G-Dett that the guideline is "tailor-made" to our dispute. From what I can tell, the guideline applies to the "name" of an entity, such as Japan, and certain self-identifying terms, such as Japanese. But what about other descriptors of the person or entity? For instance, if a deceased person had publicly self-identified as Heterosexual, does our guideline apply despite reliable sources that contest their identity? What about if a person identified as non-white or white, guilty or not guilty, pro-Israel, etc.? If a group denies that it's a "cult," does the guideline respect that self-identification? If a group claims to be a religion or a scientific body, does the guideline apply? Again, from what I can tell, the guideline itself applies only to a name. Perhaps they name themselves the "Sioux Nation" (IDK), but here 'nation' is being advanced as a descriptor, not as a name. (Right?) So, I would want to see a lucid argument (with [[WP:RS|evidence) such as either (1) "nation" is a self-identifying term, for the Palestinians, that like Japanese is a "key statement of an entity's own identity" (Guideline quote) or (2) the guideline shows Wikipedia support for an underlying principle of identity self-determination, which may apply by extension to "nation" for Palestinians. Otherwise, I'm wondering if the principle should not apply in this instance. Hope this is useful. Thanks. HG | Talk 21:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Eric Lynn Wright (September 7, 1963–March 26, 1995), better known by the stage name Eazy-E, was an American rapper, producer, and record executive who came straight outta Compton. Ruthless was his style as a juvenile; he was a brother who would smother your mother, and make your sister think he loved her.
G-Dett says above, "they constitute a collective entity – whatever term one chooses for it, a people, a nation, a polity, whatever, as opposed to a semi-random assemblage of Arab persons". Is there anyone who disagrees with the fact that the Palestinian people are a collective entity, and if so, on what basis are they *not* a collective entity? And if they *are* a collective entity, what is the best reliably sourced term to designate this collective entity if not "nation"? -- MPerel 03:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Chairman,
In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
Yitzhak Rabin.
Prime Minister of Israel.
(outdent) Really, 6SJ7, why? I try to be careful with my analogies, and to avoid the facile Chomskian reductio ad absurdum. This analogy seems to me pretty exact, pretty symmetrical, and to track the whole logic of the peace process from Oslo forward – i.e., Palestinian recognition of Israel's existence (and right to exist) in exchange for Israeli recognition that the Palestinians constitute a people with legitimate political aspirations. At any rate, I'm certainly not the first to make it. Here's Julie Burchill, onetime journalist for the Guardian, writing about the "new antisemitism." Burchill resigned from the Guardian in protest at what she saw as pervasive anti-Israel bias crossing over into antisemitism:
Were you outraged when Golda Meir claimed there were no Palestinians? You should be equally outraged at the insinuation that Jews are not a nation. Those who denounce Zionism sometimes explain Israel's policies as a product of its Jewish essence. In their view, not only should Israel act differently, it should cease being a Jewish state. Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights.
-- G-Dett ( talk) 03:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it's not surprising that the editors who were pushing for "nation" like the "compromise" of "a people" because it's pushing the same POV. The problem is, you can't split the difference between POV and neutral and still wind up with neutral. Given the different POVs on the subject, I've yet to see an even halfway compelling reason for us to take sides. <<-armon->> ( talk) 20:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I have no idea what you're talking about Armon and I'm kind of surprised you didn't bring up whatever point it is you're trying to make in the lengthy discussions previous. What I do know is that Rashid Khalidi, an expert source, is cited in the article as saying that the identities of "Arab", "Palestinian" and so forth have been and are coexistant with one another among many Palestinians.
Further, I can't imagine why you would think that this compromise is one I like. It's not at all what I was advocating for. Based on reliable, scholarly sources, I wanted to see the term nation in the lede. This solution doesn't do that. All it does is add an indefinitive particle, transforming the generic usage of people to a specific collective noun (also based, thanks to G-Dett's rigorous scholarship, on reliable sources).
You are now standing in the way of consensus without offering a compelling policy-based rationale for your non-adherence to this key Wikipedia policy. That's against the very spirit of WP:CONSENSUS (I keep wikilinking because I'm hoping you'll actually read it.) Please, once again, reconsider your position, for the sake of the project. That's what I did. This solution is much, much less than what I think is appropriate, but those proposing it have made strong, policy-based, source-based, and common sense arguments as to why its the best workable solution. Tiamut 13:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
'If there be one fact in the world perfectly clear it is this:'That the disposition of the people of America is wholly averse to any other than a free government';' E Burke, ' Letter to the Sherriffs of Bristol,' in Speeches on the American War, ed.A.J.George, Boston 1907 p.204
I think that to use the term 'nation' would be 'undue weight'. The term has a connotation of a people as an organic body, and it is usually used in a nationalistic context. In the opening sentence, which gives a definition of the subject of the article, surely we should apply a NPOV, and avoid this term. I propose:
This text also distinghuishes between people (singular) and people (plural). -- JaapBoBo ( talk) 22:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello folks. Ok, I am requesting unprotection. I assume that with a perfectly serviceable consensus, we now have enough reason to unprotect it. if anyone chooses to disrupt this consensus, this would be the perfect time to test the system. Since we now have a major ArbCom case under way, this seems like the perfect time to test the ability of Wikipedia's system to uphold a consensus which was fairly arrived at. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 20:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
If there is a consensus, the problem still remains that sometimes a consensus can be for the wrong thing. I'll just leave you guys with cites that show that the phrase is problematic. I shouldn't have to, but I suppose I'd better make the disclaimer that these do not necessarily reflect my personal opinion. I'll add more as I find them. <<-armon->> ( talk) 23:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In the new found spirit of brotherhood I would like to chime in. A good job was done in finding some compromise, but I hate to say that unless an open-ended formula can be found; even if we should all agree to the compromise; who is to say, that tomorrow someone won't arrive from Mars and/or Venus and start all over. They say that a sucker is born every day; similarly I would say that a Wikipidian editor is born every ...
I think that all options should be put on the table and let's analyze all of them; maybe just maybe we can come to some sort of an understanding.
First off I think that Armon has done a splendid job of trying to find reliable sources which state the Israeli POV. I think that Golda Meir, Yitzhak Shamir and Benjamin Natanyahu represent fairly the opinion of most Israelis, and it would be unfair to dismiss them as terrorist, blind or stupid. That the Israeli government in the last 10 years called them "Palestinian people" is in no way proof of what they really think; because as I have numerous times mentioned, that the Israeli people desperately want peace, and their government at the very minimum will give lip service and say what the Palestinians want to hear, because semantics is just a small price to pay; it is land which is the more difficult nut to crack. As for President Bush; does anyone really expect him to be more Israeli then Israel itself? Why shouldn't he say so for the same above reasons?
So far G-Dett tried finding fault in every source that Armon brought; but in all honesty, does anyone doubt that this is what the Israelis think? Three Prime Ministers isn't enough? Also he is sitting by a computer and G-Dett is sitting in a library (I'm jealous); so imagine if he or I had the time to sort out all the books on this subject and finally find what everyone must accept as a reliable source; are we then finished? It was admitted on these pages that this is what Israeli's think; but it was dismissed as fringe. So the question which HG has put forth is; what is fringe? There are so many things and factors to be sorted out if we should ever get to the bottom of this, and I think it's worth at least a try. It has been suggested that Armon is a lone holdout; so I would like to remind everybody that I agree with him and there are many others who agree with him too but have taken a back seat for now.
With all this in mind I'm open minded enough, to recognize the perspectives of other people and again in a spirit of harmony, I kindly request that we spell out all opinions and get to the bottom of this; not on what is true but on what is the best and fairest way of writing it which includes all perspectives. Itzse ( talk) 22:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
That the Israeli government in the last 10 years called them "Palestinian people" is in no way proof of what they really think; because as I have numerous times mentioned, that the Israeli people desperately want peace, and their government at the very minimum will give lip service and say what the Palestinians want to hear, because semantics is just a small price to pay; it is land which is the more difficult nut to crack. As for President Bush; does anyone really expect him to be more Israeli then Israel itself? Why shouldn't he say so for the same above reasons?
I have unprotected the page. If the agreement does not hold, then the page will be protected again. Woody ( talk) 20:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} How did the explanation of Gevlin get deleted from this article? Look at the history; it used to say:
In an interview conducted by The Sunday Times on June 15, 1969, Golda Meir was party to the following exchange: [22]
Q:Do you think the emergence of the Palestinian fighting forces, the Fedayeen, is an important new factor in the Middle East?
A:Important, no. A new factor, yes. There was no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the first world war and then it wa a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country from them. They did not exist.
The use of the above quote as a proof that there was the belief among Israelis that there were no Palestinians is disputed. Gelvin says that Meir was neither denying indigenous Palestinian people nor the existence of the Palestinian nation. Rather, her remarks are directed at the Fedayeen's causing of the nation to exist. [22] Gelvin states that while Meir's “assertion that a Palestinian nation did not exist until after 1967 war is absurd, the sketch she provides of the historical nationalism that engendered that nation—and her implicit understanding of the unpredictable and conditional evolution of nationalism in general—is, in the main, accurate.” [22]
Somehow, somebody deleted the reliable and cited explanation of Gevlin. I will assume good faith that it, together with the unexplained bolding of some of Meir's quote that does not appear in the original, as an accident on some of the editor's parts. I am certain that nobody would want to deliberately hide reliable and cited information, or inappropriately emphasize sections of statements, solely to push one point or another; for all we all not bound by the same policies? Regardless, as soon as the protection is lifted, the deleted material must be restored and the improper emphasis must be removed. -- Avi ( talk) 16:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Avi, Padillah. I removed the Gold Meir section in title=Palestinian_people&diff=147559126&oldid=147556935 this edit after there had been discussion raised on the talk page regarding it's length, relevance and accuracy. I responded to those concerns by removing it and no one objected. I now notice that since then another editor has added her statement, without the accompanying explanation by Gelvin.
I think considering the differing viewpoints on her statement (Gelvin's isn't the only one to be sure - there are many who claim she meant what she said and that this position represents the Israeli denialist position) it's better to leave her statement out of the article altogether, since we cannot give space to discuss all those different interpretations in this article and no one of them is authoritative. Perhaps, the material is better included in an article on Golda Meir herself? Respect. Tiamut —Preceding comment was added at 13:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Padillah. I'm not really the yelling type (though I have lost my cool a few times when faced with what I thought were intrenchably POV positions or edits). You seem like a good faith editor and I've appreciated your mediation efforts here on the issue of nation, even though it didn't go the way I had hoped.
About the Meir quote, I think we can safely take it out without changing anything. It would read as follows:
The identity of Palestinians has been a point of contestation with Israel.Golda Meir expounded the early position in her famous remark that:
'It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.'[35]
The British historian Eric Hobsbawn allows that an element of justness can be discerned in skeptical outsider views that dismiss the propriety of using the term 'nation' to peoples like the Palestinians: such language arises often as the rhetoric of an evolved minority out of touch with the larger community that lacks this modern sense of national belonging. But at the same time, he argues, this outsider perspective has tended to
'overlook the rise of mass national identification when it did occur, as Zionist and Israeli Jews notably did in the case of the Palestinian Arabs.'[36]
From 1948 through until the 1980’s, according to Eli Podeh, professor at Hebrew University, the textbooks used in Israeli schools tried to disavow a unique Palestinian identity, referring to 'the Arabs of the land of Israel' instead of 'Palestinians.' Israeli textbooks now widely use the term 'Palestinians.' Podeh believes that Palestinian textbooks of today resemble those from the early years of the Israeli state.[37]
What do you (and others) think? Tiamut 15:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with those who say we should move quickly. We've gotten where we are through a model consensus-building discussion, one that redounds to the credit of all involved and and is a good harbinger for future collaboration. We should all commit to working together to make this a great article. Padillah and Tiamut are already discussing copy-edit and substantive changes they'd like to make; the page needs to open now when there is a high tide of good will and intellectual momentum.
Armon has raised two eleventh-hour objections to "a people": (i) given that in some instances "people" is a synonym for "nation," any objections raised regarding the latter apply ipso facto to the former; and (ii) given that part of the rationale for "a people" is the guideline on self-identifying terms, then we have to consider the views of Islamists within the Palestinian polity, who Armon says don't believe in the idea of a Palestinian people.
Both propositions seem to me self-evidently specious, but if other editors require refutation I'm happy to provide it.
Incidentally, add President Bush to the consensus. Pro-Palestinian neo-Chomskyian uber-leftist antisemitic Islamofascist Arafat-lovin' loony that he is, Bush referred to "the Palestinian people" three times in a five-minute speech today in Jerusalem:
Actually, Gelvin appears to be wrong -at least according to Meir herself:
Are they a "nation", "a people" (an individual people), or "Arab people" of Palestine who are part of the Arab people/nation, or "all people" originating from Palestine? What are the sources for these opinions?
The first and last we all agree to. It is all those positions in the middle which need to be presented in a NPOV and needs to be hammered out, as to what is a significant opinion and what is fringe; what does significant mean and what does fringe mean.
Obviously we disagree with each other on this; but in a spirit of harmony; how much is everybody willing to compromise? Some editors have already made some compromises here, but we need to hear from everyone; otherwise tomorrow someone else is going to come along and start POV warring again. Itzse ( talk) 23:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
refactored after; unduly harsh and somewhat personal, my apologies < eleland/ talk edits> 02:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
> Itzse. That contradicts manifestly Israel's Law of Return (1950), and the wording of the Balfour Declaration, in its endeavour to create discursive parity at the expense of history. What you evidently mean is 'which was created in Palestine for Jews (and not, 'created for Jews in Palestine') Nishidani ( talk) 14:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)' State of Israel, which was created for the Palestinian Jews'.
Palestinian doesn't have any other meaning today, it might have had a hundred years ago, which should of course be mentioned somewhere. Funkynusayri ( talk) 01:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, sorry to butt in here, but "striving to have a state of their own" doesn't cover all people who identify as part of the Palestinian people either. Some don't support the idea of states at all, some want a state with Jews, and while these may be minority groups, they are still part of the Palestinian people.
I don't see the need to change the first sentence. The next two paragraphs in the introduction deal with subject is a more nuanced fashion. This seems a little redundant and over-politicized for an article on a people. True, politics is big part of their identity, but that's not what Palestinians should be reduced to. There are people after all, some of whom couldn't care less about politics or a future state, but do identify as culturally Palestinian. Let's try and remember that this is article is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Tiamut 01:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
This is just a way of gauging where we stand, not an attempt to close the issue. Please use only your signature in the numbered sections; comments can go below.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab nation by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should be written in accordance with this view. The belief by some that there is a Palestinian nation or a people is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a dubious or discredited theory only.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab people; not as a separate people. The article should in essence treat them as such; but the belief by some that it has already developed an individual identity should not be ignored. They shouldn't be described as a separate people in the lead; but the article as a whole should reflect such a belief.
Palestinians are regarded as part of the Arab people; not as a separate people. The article should in essence treat them as such; but the belief by some that it is in the process of developing an individual identity as a people should not be ignored. They shouldn't be described as a separate people in the lead; but the article as a whole should reflect such a development.
Palestinians are regarded by some as a (separate) nation or a people, but there is much controversy on this point. The article should not use these terms except in attributed quotes or paraphrases of sources. (Edited by 6SJ7 to improve clarity: "separate" added, in parentheses.)
Palestinians are widely regarded as a nation or a people. The article should, in essence, treat them as such, but it should not ignore the notable point-of-view which expresses concern about the correct way to accurately describe their existence. They may be described as a nation or people in the lead, but the article as a whole should reflect discussion on this topic and on this set of concerns.
Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should treat them as such and they may be described as a nation or people in the lead. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a minority theory only.
Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should be written in accordance with this view. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a dubious or disputed or discredited theory only.
Per the NPOV tutorial we shouldn't be stating a political POV categorically. We don't need to take a position, but rather, let the facts speak for themselves. There was a time when there was clearly no Palestinian nation/people and there are differing definitions of Palestine and Palestinians. However, the current political consensus is that there is "a Palestinian people" in the sense of a polity or body politic, and that there should be a future Palestinian state. The article should simply trace that development without attempting to adjudicate the conflict.
(Write-in vote; please briefly state your position, and copy the current text below, so others will know where to place write-ins.)
I really think that "1" is correct; but as a compromise, I'll go with "2". Itzse ( talk) 21:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my write in suggestion - "Palestinians are regarded as a nation or people by almost all current, reliable sources; the article should treat them as such and they may be described as a nation or people in the lead. Denial of Palestinian identity is certainly relevant and should be discussed, but as a minority theory only" - I am trying to suggest basically option six *but* if comments made by people such as Golda Meir or Ben Gurion are to be mentioned somewhere in the article, they should not be presented as dubious or discredited. That is not to say, however, that they need be given equal weight to the more widely accepted view, especially as the main proponents of the view that the Palestinians are not a nation or people appear to be only sources who are clearly partisan (if anyone finds less partisan sources then I'll happily take that back) and they appear to be views which are no longer expressed even by significant partisan sources (such as Israeli Prime Ministers - again I am open to correction). Suggesting or appearing to suggest that statements from people such as Ben Gurion are discredited would at the very least appear to be POV to some. Hobson ( talk) 22:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I find Armon's option #8 to be confusing; he seems to be stating that since the "People"-hood of Palestinians is politically controversial, the fact is thus in dispute, and Wikipedia should not state it as a fact. I don't understand why this should be so. Evolution is politically controversial, the effectiveness of condoms in preventing HIV is politically controversial, etc. Heck, in the Israeli-Palestinian realm there are Muslims who claim that Jerusalem is not holy to Jews, and vice versa. A political controversy alone does not invalidate the findings of scholars. I've yet to see a current scholarly source which states that the Palestinians are not now a people or nation. Some (mostly extremist) political sources, sure. And if you read scholars, even conservative pro-Israel scholars (such as JCPA fellows) incorrectly, or quote them out of context, you can draw a "Palestinians do not exist" conclusion. But I'm just not seeing any difference of opinion in the scholarly sources, so asking us to "assert facts about opinions," in my view, conflates "opinions" with "the firm consensus of all reliable scholarly sources." < eleland/ talk edits> 23:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I "voted" for "4" but first edited it slightly. I don't think I changed its meaning. I just added the word "separate" which also appears in 1, 2, and 3. Maybe it is implied in the rest, but I wanted to make that clear. I could have made it a write-in, but I thought that would be too confusing, and I thought nobody would disagree with my edit. (An expectation that, sadly, seldom proves correct on Wikipedia, but we shall see.) A few other comments; unlike HG, I do not think "4" is unworkable. In fact, I think it is essentially the version that was protected for almost a month, which I didn't have a problem with. I also am not sure what the difference is between "4" and Armon's "8", with which I basically agree as well. 6SJ7 ( talk) 02:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
moved belowLet's see where we stand. Here is the text that I think is being presented as a consensus, or at least a compromise: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people..." I believe that Tiamut, 6SJ7 and various others are willing to accept this wording, even if it's not their first choice. I'm a bit less clear about Armon. Maybe you're willing to live with it, Armon, but you also want to be able to register your analysis that the wording still reflects a POV. Is that right? Plus, it sounds like we should try to add some sense of stability to the agreement (if there is to be one), e.g, that none of the agreeing parties would try to re-edit the text for, say, 6 months. Is this helpful at all?
HG |
Talk
05:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I noticed this on the Jew page: "The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism, the traditional faith of the Jewish nation". Ok, so what makes Jews a nation, apart from having a state which the majority of Jews doeesn't even live in, more of a "nation" than the Palestinians? From everything I've read, Jews were considered a "nation" even before they created Israel, and in fact, following the logic of Itzse and others, only Israelis, not Jews as a whole, should be considered a nation. What applies here should apply there too, but I bet I would be accused of "anti-semitism" if I removed the word "nation" from there.
The fact that the use of "nation" on that page isn't even sourced, but is fiercely demanded to be sourced here, reeks of hypocrisy. Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If "nation" is not to be used here, it should be removed from there too. Otherwise, give some good arguments aganst it. Funkynusayri ( talk) 05:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read and taken part in the previous discussions here about the use of "nation", and that's exactly why I'm bringing this up, as the arguments used against apply to the use of "nation" on the Jew page too. Funkynusayri ( talk) 18:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
As for Palestinians being "an extension of Arabs", again, so are the people of Austria and Lichtenstein in relation to the German people, yet they have their own nation-states. I do not see any dissimilarities, apart from the fact that Palestinians are, as a group, even more ethnically homogeneous than Jews are today.
Sm, this "whole issue" has only been reopened because I noticed the wording on the Jew page yesterday, otherwise I would had brought it up long ago. My whole point is that this expresses an obvious double standard, and places the discussion of "nation" here on another level.
And Itzse, what do you mean by "speaks volumes"? I could say exactly the same about your denial of Palestinians as a nation. And what is the purpose of this: "I think you should try to denigrate every nation on Wikipedia; so maybe finally, an argument will be made that if they are a nation then we are also a nation. If you can't pull yourself up; then pull others down, to equalize the playing field". As far as I'm concerned, you're denigrating the Palestinian nation. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
"The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate Document, and everything based upon them are deemed null and void. The claim of historical or religious ties between Jews and Palestine does not tally with historical realities, nor with the constituents of statehood in their true sense. Judaism, in its character as a religion, is not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Jews are not one people with an independent identity. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong."
"The claim of historical or religious ties between Arabs and Palestine does not tally with historical realities, nor with the constituents of statehood in their true sense. Palestinians, are not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Arabs are not one people with an independent identity. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong!!!"
"The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty to repulse the Zionist, imperialist invasion from the great Arab homelands and to eliminate the Zionist presence front Palestine. Its full responsibilities fall upon the Arab nation, peoples and governments, with the Palestinian Arab people at their head. For this purpose, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, material and spiritual capacities to participate actively with the people of Palestine in the liberation of Palestine. They must, especially in the present stage of armed Palestinian revolution, grant and offer the people of Palestine all possible help and every material and human support, and afford it every sure means and opportunity enabling it to continue to assume its vanguard role in pursuing its armed revolution until the liberation of its homeland."
This entire debate not only doesn't belong on this talk page, but cannot possibly do anyything but make the process of establishing a consensus even harder. If the Jew article is wrong, take it there. Clearly, the Wikipedia article on Jew is not a source for this article. Hobson ( talk) 02:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It does talk of a people: to repeat, it says: "grant and offer THE people of Palestine all possible help and every material and human support, and afford IT every sure means and opportunity enabling IT to continue to assume ITS vanguard role in pursuing ITS armed revolution until the liberation of ITS homeland." "It"= singular pronoun; thus, they are talking about "a people" in the singular.
re my fairness to both sides. I'll try to be fairer to Israel from now on. Did you hear that, everybody? thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 21:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"Article 8. The Palestinian people IS at the stage of national struggle for the liberation of ITS homeland." (emphasis added.)
-- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 22:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Article 15. ... The full responsibility for this belongs to the peoples and governments of the Arab nation and to the Palestinian people first and foremost..."
Padillah ( talk) 17:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Palestinians refer to the Palestinan people who inhabited Palestine before the British insersion of people of jewish religion but different races and nationalities. Palestinians are Arabs ( Arabs are the people who descend from Abraham through his son Ishmael and they speak Arabic language) Palestinians are the most homogenous arab people in having haplogroup J1 ( the lineage of Abraham). hpe that will help in your dilemma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
"It is extremely striking that the same editors who say that the "Palestinians" are the perfect example of a nation; and that never before has there been a better example of what a nation is; are exactly the same editors who are the first to argue that the Jewish people aren't a nation."
First of all, no one has claimed that Palestinians "are the perfect example of a nation", just as no one is "the first to argue that Jews are not a nation".
What I said however, is that labeling Palestinians as a nation is as valid as labeling Jews a nation. The natural consequence of this is that anyone arguing against the nationhood of Palestinians is arguing against the nationhood of Jews, and many other self-proclaimed nations of the world.
Yet the people who do this ignore that problem on all those other pages. That's all. Just putting things into context. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's see where we stand. Here is the text that I think is being presented as a consensus, or at least a compromise: "Palestinian people, Palestinians, or Palestinian Arabs are terms used to refer to an Arabic-speaking people..." I believe that Tiamut, 6SJ7 and various others are willing to accept this wording, even if it's not their first choice. I'm a bit less clear about Armon. Maybe you're willing to live with it, Armon, but you also want to be able to register your analysis that the wording still reflects a POV. Is that right? Plus, it sounds like we should try to add some sense of stability to the agreement (if there is to be one), e.g, that none of the agreeing parties would try to re-edit the text for, say, 6 months. Is this helpful at all? HG | Talk 05:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, let's move on.-- G-Dett ( talk) 21:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
So, here is the compromise text (already in place for a week):
From what I can tell, this text is a consensus insofar as it's a compromise involving the following editors recently on Talk here (alphabetical): Armon, CasualObserver'48, Eleland, Funkynusayri ,G-Dett, Hobson, Itzse, MPerel, Nishidani, 6SJ7, Steve, Tiamut, with facilitation by Padillah. (Note: The compromise is not necessarily anyone's first choice, but no party is trying to block consensus either. I assume that some folks will still want to clarify the editorial position, options above, to support further use of "a people" in the article. Also, so far nobody objected to the suggestion that the compromise stand for at least 6 months.) So, with appreciations dispersed widely to all parties, thanks. HG | Talk 02:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I still think there's a fundamental problem with "a people" because, as is clear from the #7 position, it is an attempt to settle the issue in favour of the POV that they are a "nation". Despite the attempts to dismiss the evidence I've presented that it is a disputed concept, there hasn't actually been any good evidence, only assertions, that it is "a dubious or disputed or discredited theory only." That position is also a strawman. Nobody disputes that there are people called "Palestinians". What is disputed is that they constitute a distinct nation separate from other Arabs. I can live with the consensus/compromise wording for now, however, I think that if we don't abide by policy, we are going to continually have these sorts of conflicts. I think this question may have to go before the task force being set up after the arbcom. <<-armon->> ( talk) 00:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Palestinians refer to the Palestinan people who inhabited Palestine before the British insersion of people of jewish religion but different races and nationalities. Palestinians are Arabs ( Arabs are the people who descend from Abraham through his son Ishmael and they speak Arabic language) Palestinians are the most homogenous arab people in having haplogroup J1 ( the lineage of Abraham). hpe that will help in your dilemma.16:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
If 9 million people say they are a nation, then it does not stop at you to decide to put the word nation next to palestinians , especially if we take into consideration that you are are enemy of the palestinians or an Israeli, right? definition of what nation means differ between schools of thoughts, and those nine million people don't have to conform to your own theory which is hidden in your mind.better yet spell what constitute a nation and well show you they are a nation. Palestinians lived in their country before they were kicked out of it in 1948 and after bloody fight with their ancient crusader enemy the British (Richard Lionheart). They are the most homogenous DNA ancestry ( highest J1 among Arabs with low diversity in haplotype (NEbet et al 2000), they are even the most homogenous ancestry nation not among other countries but among the world nations! They have their own dialect, they have their special religious schools ( Al Aqsa Mosque and associated schools from 1000 years ago) they have their trade mark cousins ( Aka Cheese, Nablus cheese, Nablus Halva, Jafa orange, famous around the arabic world and beyond, their DNA proved to be in the land since time immemorial, the names of their villages never changed since pre biblical times ( such as Kfar, Beit, etc), they have the heritage of the three religions came from their land since they are the obvious descendents of ancient jews early christians, and canaanites, they are famous in using stones since david. the legacy of interest in sorcerer effect in Samaria ( Nablus and Lud and Ramlah since before Samaritans (Samaria was the name of the area in 1700 BC! and with the same reputatiopn till now!) what else do you want as proofs, should we conform to Mr Lewis or some other never-had -a -nation-for a long-time -person? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I had answered you with:Two points. 1) It doesn't in fact run completely counter to all sources -there are obviously those who disagree with idea. 2) As a matter of fact, my personal opinion on the matter isn't to say there is no such thing, but that's not the point and it wouldn't matter if it were.
Writing the narative with the point of view that you have just expounded; excludes the other persective and violates NPOV. Are you saying that another POV doesn't exist because there are numerous sources expounding your POV? As for Israel's, the United States, Western Europe and the United Nations motives for giving lip service to the Palestinian POV on this issue; please see the numerous discussions that already took place to explain them. Don't forget; Countries aren't scholars, countries aren't linguists; countries only have interests; and you tell me what they are!
I appreciate the arguments you two are trying to make but I would feel more comfortable if we didn't bring real-world race into the picture. First of it gives me the screaming willies to classify a person by race. Other than as a physical description I have yet to see it done objectively. Second, it's very difficult to not take these types of references personally. I'm sure you guys are wonderful people but feelings get hurt and text is not the most subtle communication medium... the whole exercise if fraught with peril (now I sound like a movie tagline). Lastly, I'm not convinced the inclusion of "X" number of people bequeaths "nationhood" anyway so the whole point is moot. You are more than welcome to continue (it is a free... whatever) but I really don't think it's a good idea. Padillah ( talk) 20:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Article 6: "The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians."
Yes, Itsze, you are a Palestinian. Congratulations!!!!!I congratulate you upon your new-found identity.
I assume that one of your first acts as a Palestinian will be to assert that there is a Palestinian people? After all, if you are a Palestinian, you must surely wish for your people to be recognized. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 21:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
So here you have it; if you honestly study the Palestinian charter you will see that they aren't claiming a Palestinian people; mind you a nation. It is claiming Palestine for the Arabs and in particular, it is claiming a Palestinian identity which excludes Jews, with rights to its homeland. That Palestinian identity (not a Palestinian people) is explicitly stated in article 4, belongs only to Palestinian Arabs and is transmitted to their descendents as belonging to the "Palestinian community" again carefully not calling them a people. Here is article 4:In fact, the first Article of the PLO Charter makes it clear that ‘Palestinian people’ are ordinary Arabs: “Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation”4 (italic by author). Confirmation that the charter adopted by the 4th PNC in 1968 does in fact say this, is here
Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from fathers to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.
"The Palestinians are those Arab nationals"; is that good enough for you? Itzse ( talk) 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father- whether in Palestine or outside it- is also a Palestinian.
With all due respect, I think this WP:OR soapboxing has gone on long enough. Either make a specific suggestion about what to add to the article to represent the viewpoint you wish to have represented (i.e. actually make or propose an edit) or drop it. It's gotten way past offensive into the purely ridiculous now. Excuse the frankness, but really! Tiamut talk 00:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Smart
Itzke: 9 million people point of view is not POV!
Also you did not reveal the secret formula for becoming a nation ( I mentioned some:cousines, schools, dialect palestinians, throwing stones on israeli soldiers etc)of course palestinians have more formula for being a nation (just tell us your secret formula) but if 9 million people say they are a nation I think that is enough. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Adnanmuf (
talk •
contribs)
05:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus you say (Millions of my ancestors lived in the Holy land until a few hundred years after the destruction of the Second Temple. ) how do we know that what you say is true? what evidence do you have that those Israelites were your ancestor? The recent DNA studies prove that 90% of jews and or israelies are NOT J1 haplogroup of the Israelites (found 60% in the Cohanim with CMH!) so you are much much more likely not really a descendent of those people. Those people followed Jesus and became christians ( half of jews became followers of jesus) and stayed in the land as christians and some also became muslims. The palestinians have 80% of J1 and they are the descendedts of Abraham ( like CMH haplogroup) and many palestinians are descendents of Isaac and Ishmael. You are not and you are not included in the promise too( of the bible), The semitic Law of Return 1950 was based on evidence of jewish mother or jewish grandmother, however recent DNA studies proved that overwhelming majority of mtDNA of jewish women are NOT from the middle east. So the Israelis are illegal according to the Law of return( got their visas illegally) plus they entered the land without approval of the Palestinian authorities.05:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
It's one thing to disagree with specific language in the text. It's one thing to disagree with some specific interpretation or application of policy. It's another to argue against essentially every relevant reliable source, from academic journals through newspapers and magazines to casual statements by public figures. They all talk about "Palestinians," and they use the word to to mean an Arab nation with origins in that portion of the Levant which was known as "the British Mandate of Palestine" (excepting that portion which was broken off into the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in 1946). Thirty-year-old declarations by Israeli politicians, columns in community newspapers reporting the opinions of Judeo-fundamentalist extremists, and scholarly essays which use the term "Palestinian" to refer to an Arab local identity, but dissent from specific aspects of the Palestinian national narrative, have no relevance in the face of such an overwhelming mainstream consensus.
Editors who feel that this consensus is incorrect, inappropriate, immoral or even unholy are welcome to their opinions. They are not welcome to argue, endlessly and vehemently, the righteousness of their opinions in every relevant forum. Please stop. < eleland/ talk edits> 07:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Did you say this ( from academic journals through newspapers and magazines to casual statements by public figures. They all talk about "Palestinians," and they use the word to to mean an Arab nation ) then they are a nation, lets move on!07:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't take the word of nobody of those but only the palestinians themselves ( meaning the 9 million people I told you about) do they say they are a nation or not?07:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
The following piece in "DNA clues" is very long and irrelevant:
{One point in which Palestinians and Ashkenazi Jews and most Near Eastern Jewish communities appear to contrast is in the proportion of sub-Saharan African gene types which have entered their gene pools. One study found that Palestinians and some other Arabic-speaking populations — Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouins — have what appears to be substantial gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, amounting to 10-15% of lineages within the past three millennia.[119] In a context of contrast with other Arab populations not mentioned, the African gene types are rarely shared, except among Yemenites, where the average is actually higher at 35%.[119] Yemenite Jews, being a mixture of local Yemenite and Israelite ancestries[120], are also included in the findings for Yemenites, though they average a quarter of the frequency of the non-Jewish Yemenite sample.[119] Other Middle Eastern populations, particularly non-Arabic speakers — Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeris, and Georgians — have few or no such lineages.[119] The findings suggest that gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa has been specifically into Arabic-speaking populations (including at least one Arabic-speaking Jewish population, as indicated in Yemenite Jews), possibly due to the Arab slave trade. Other Near Eastern Jewish groups (whose Arabic-speaking heritage was not indicated by the study) almost entirely lack haplogroups L1–L3A, as is the case with Ashkenazi Jews. The sub-Saharan African genetic component of Ethiopian Jews and other African Jewish groups were not contrasted in the study, however, independent studies have shown those Jewish groups to be principally indigenous African in origin}
this study (Gene flow in Arabs} is old and is based on the premise that since Jewish women don't have that L1-L3 mtDNA haplogroup, then it must have come to Arabs in post first temple destruction and even after conversion of women into judaism to marry Jewish Yemenite men !( Huh). This is stupid, since that premise it self needs lots of scientific study to prove it in the first place ( ie jewish women are the same jewish women upon the start of Diaspoa), secondly the recent studies especially from 2004-2007 had proved that Jewish women are in the overwhelming majority from Europpean and not of middle eastern origin (such current jewish maternal haplogroups as Haplogroup K1 and H1, J1, etc) contrary to ME women who are ( and were in the ancient past) preHV and L and N. Hence since the premise is faulty and that the L1-L3 are ancient haplogroups of the Middle East ( semitic areas like Arabian countries and Ethiopia who are both not sub saharan! This gene flow study actually works well to prove that jewish women lack this middle eastern Haplogroup L ( that has to stay in till the present in them/ At any rate this is not its place, since we are talking about the palestinians, I will remove this piece, especially that it is racist, Haplogroup N ( african) is found in Europe and is considered ancient in Europe even though it is mainly African, and so L1-L3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
As I promised I cut the section that talks about gene flow from Africa, since it is irrelevant racist, and NOT true: The study was based on faulty premise, and L1-L3 are now considered of the pool of Middle Eastern women ( past and present (check genographic project at National Geographic)and very ancient in the middle East as well as africa ( like many other mtDNA haplogroups) However jews lacking it is an indication they did not originate from the middle East. The other paragraph I cut is about a study about rare disease that cause child deafness ( caused by a gene) and found greatly in Ashkenasim but also in some palestinians and also many other nations ( chinese for example). The study conducted in Palestine found the gene in both Palestinians and Ashkenazim study subjects ( which did not include people from other nations) but did not check the gene in other populations! also a one gene is not an indication of relatedness between the two ( you need haplogroup or haplotype similarities ( haplotype is usually SIX different mutations)
This study was only referenced as proof of ashkenazim relatedness to Palestine only in one web site of Ultra orthodox Rabbi in Australia (foundationstone--not scientific site that including other stupid similar conclusions on other studies) and was refernced from the rabbi in only one web site ( also non scientific)( Khazaria.com) by Beit Or who ( works in both in Khazaria and wiki-palestinians!) There is no relation between the palestinians and jews in the first place to look for differences in african gene.! abubakr ( talk) 06:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I told you already! the section about deafness in children: go the study itself ( referenced by the khazaria guy) and see for yourself. I read it, it found that a gene is found in both israeli and palestinians and the article says that the disease is found in many OTHER nations!!!, and the study did not check the gene in those other nations!!!. and the study was not about a relation between the two people but about the disease( which is important to ashkenazim because it is hereditary caused by closed herd genetics. The study as it speaks for itself does not say that it is evidence that they are related.
As for the second study about (gene flow into arabs from africa)! first: what this has to do with palestinians comparing them to jews in african genes ( sound racist don't you think?), secondly: the study is old and was based on the premise of the non existant of L haplogroup in Jews women!!!, however recent studies found jewish women did never come from the middle east to begin with, so the premise of the study was false, you also need to read the study! so both studies are not relevant and not scientific!07:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
In case you want to return the section (gene flow) then I will just add to it the stuff I mentioned above ( that the jew women are not descendent of ancient jew women, and that will hurt your jewish friends more than if we just cut. of course I have multiple evidence for that, just waiting sincerely07:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk)
There is nothing wrong with the study about deafness but khazaria sit interpret it wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Eleland, i appreciate your helpful stance and constructive assertions on this, as well as your willingness to be objective about this, and to view this skeptically. however, i don;'t see what relevance the evidence has here. If the world accepts any ethnic or relifgious group, then our job as an encyclopedia is to report that. we do not produce or render our own historical, political or scientific verdicts here, regardless of the data it is based on. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 ( talk) 14:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no gene flow from africa in palestinian women as the study suggest. I am not critisitzing the conclusions of the study but the premise!!!! The Premise is that (since CURRENT jewish women don't have the gene flow) He is taking for granted that the current jewish women are the descendents of the jewish women who supposedly exited the middle east in 120 AD as the study says (120 AD is the mark here, because Arabs started the slave trade according to him in 7th century AD! also took this for granted that the Arabs did a slave trade!!), the L haplogroup is NOW determined to be Original in Middle East, and the reason why it is not found in Jews is because about 99% of Jewish women are from Haplogroups that never existed in the Middle East (in or before 120AD in Palestine or the surrounding areas! Not to mention that Jews have over 35% of E3b of the Habasha slave on the male side(ethiopian slave that acompanied the J haplogroup in ancient times. It is the hence the Current jews who are made up largley from Africans ( on the male side) not the Arabs. J1 is the semitic Haplogroup. Jews have J2 30% J2 haplogroup subclades of different nations of the mideterranean, and 35 % of E3b of Habasha african and only 10 % of J1 of Semites plus a whopping 50% of R1a1 R1b, I and Q of Europe and tatar of siberia. the study is old concerning this specific L haplogroup, it is not african but middle eastern ( most of it actually north africa and Ethiopia and Yemen and did not come by slavery as the study suggest. It will require me time to bring refs from the internet but when I have to do that, then It will be great to put all the studies together to further expose the cheating here. I am not particularly against this article but to let it stay we have to put the other evidence that L is original and jews don't have it because they are not original-it is your throw now. It will make me more than happy to add info that jews are not original ( their ancestors never been in ME .18:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree with Itsmejudith we should be talking about palestinians only, why? mention comparative studies between them and jews! all reference to similarities or dissimilarities to jews to be taken out. including the gene flow and the deafness gene. If they stay, then I will have to add a lot of refs to the contrary and the section will be big ( it is already big) However, If after I work hard to bring the evidence I told you about ( lots of cutting and pasting on my computer) then They should all stay! what I am going to do is let the gene flow section and then add that this study was wrong in the premise that since hews don't have it then it must have come to the arabs from 7 century ad onward. to explain my point that jewish women have haplogroups K and K1 and H and H1 ( K1 is only found in ashkenazim and Polish Roma people! (K1 is 32% of all ashkenazim women!!, while H1 is also very rare outside jews ) but no k1 or h1 is found in middle east!! for a haplogroup to reside in a place it will have to leave a residue in the surrounding population and in the population of that haplogroup it self who still reside in the area! right? The rabbies (who ran Operation Jews to Roma 120AD) did not know who is who in haplogroups in 100 AD to be able to take all of a haplogroup out from the middle east! right? (like K1 and H1 or even k and H ) L ( L1 , 2 , 3, 4, --7)haplogroup is not subsaharan it is found in all africa and middle east (only L1)and also in europe 1% plus another african haplogroup N found in europe(african ) and considered ancient in europe. L was treated differently by the gene flow study because it was not found in CURRENT jews!!!, so the researcher says that (check this out) since Current jews don't have this L, then they did not have it when they moved out of middle east, THEN it was not existent in the midddle east in 120 AD, and so the arabs must have got it from slave trade after 120 AD! Can you believe this craziness!!!???So the researcher had as a FACT that jewish women are the same haplogroups they had of 120. How did he know all that. He actually needs to do hundred studies to check that out, not use it as a fact( premise)!
Hi Steve: In response to your question, the aleady discovered haplogroups already drew a tree branches map!, that could not be negated. For example if two birds on same branch then they are related. However if each bird on a different branch then they are related only back to before their branches branched. The last branch from j to j1 and j2 was 10000 years ago. Both cohanim ( few thousands ) and Arabs (100 millions) are from the same haplogroup and haplotype and YCAII 22-22 which reprent the Arab of the 7th century invasion ( ie the AArabs are extremely close ancestrally to Cohanim) so if one is in j1 and one is in j2 they could be related to the 150th grand grand father. In CMH holdres they are at least related by their grand grand father 3300 years ago( Aaron) or (Abraham). Arabs like in a country like Oman (that jews never went to ever) have 20% CMH ( how many millions is that), while jews all have 3% CMH ( how many people is that( jews are 12 million) the rest of the arabs are similar to Oman (bringing the CMH holders in arabs to millions) However CMH and its sisters ( sisters of CMH is Bedoin MH Galilee Arab MH, Sanaa (Yemen) MH, Algeria MH, etc etc) are in the YCAII locust in J1/ this will bring the MCRA ( most common recent ancester to either Aaron or Abraham! but jews have only 12% of J1 while arabs have 60-80% J1( according to the jewish scientists Nebet Behar Hammer and others Semino Capelli Ceningulu etc, and also If you look at the diagram for CMH the cohanim have to be related to Arabs to be descendents of Aaron ( meaning Cohanites and Arabs are in the same cluster even they are both in YCII=22-22 which was considered represent Arabs (Nebet et al 2001) but now all Cohanim CMH is found in CAII22-22! also see this page [9]( from the website of these researchers) it shows in the {results} page that Cohanim and arab are in the Arab CAii22-22 which represent the arab of the 7th century, this means that the Cohanim who follow patreneal lineage ( rather than jewish tradition=from mother) are very connected to the Arabs! ( in other words Aaron and the father of the arabs are brothers!( or cousins or cousins from the previous 500 years before Aaron! ie Abraham. When Hammer did the study about Cohanim there was no arab studied but Nebel et Al 2001 found that CMH is found in both arabs palestinians and Cohanim, and then after discovering YCAii 22-22 in the Arabs they found out that also the cohanim have that too!!! ( meaning Cohanim with CMH in J1)all together with the one step mutation sisters of CMH ( around 10 sisters all arabic) this will include all arabs ( 100s of millions) in being closely connected with Cohanim the people who are paternally descended from Aaron (son of Abraham). Since cohanim CMH is found by the millions in Arabs it should be called Arab modal Haplotype or Abraham Modal Haplotype!
Yes it is true but don't take my home away from me, Your humanity is appreciated!
the conclusion of Oppenheim in DNA clues conradict the jargon nonsense of Mr Louis the maverick know it all ( he know nothing) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 15:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
And neither should the article on Jewish people.
As the article on race notes, scientists do not recognize any such thing as a "race" based on genetics. Research into the genetics of Palestinians and Jews is generally used by two equally fanatic groups, in conspiracy theories:
Both are pseudoscientific fringe theories based on bigotry and do not belong in Wikipedia.
In this article, mentioning the histories of various ethnic groups merging with the Palestinians and so on, is acceptable, but usage of genetics should generally be avoided. In some places, it's relevant (since genetics does impact the distinct features of certain ethnic groups, such as with Ashkenazi Jews).
But if you guys can't agree on what should be included or you have people adding fringe material on genetics either in support of Israel or in opposition of Israel, it should be immediately removed. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 01:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Why in the world suddenly jews don't want genetics to be mentioned in Palestinians and Jews!!
genetics are used in all articles in wikipedia or others about peoples and Nations.
Is it becasue DNA confirm that the Palestinians are the same J1 who were in Neoloithic times in Palestine and exactly match the lineage of Aaron, while CURRENT jews got caught red handed ( historically) stealing a land that their recent or ancient ancestors never been to ( not through Maternal lineage not through Paternal lineage and not through any DNA at all!)
Palestinians have the right to inform the world about themselves (DNA or otherwise, they are not the Masked Prisoner of the Bastilles!) The world have the right to know about Palestinians who might be related to them by DNA, and to get all the evidence (DNA archaeological Historical, Media, Linguistics, etc) to see who is really descendent of the Ancient Israelies and whose home is it the palestinians or the jews, because the jews have clearly been clearly exposed as a mixed peoples fromdifferent nations and races that had never put foot in Palestine ever! Especially that this issue is important for every person in the world these days.11:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I am afraid it is true, you got caught redhanded this time by DNA, no controlled media or propaganda will help this time 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The comment above by anonymous IP: "Why in the world suddenly jews don't want genetics to be mentioned". I'm not Jewish and asserting that those you disagree with are Jews is anti-semitic. So, I've reported it on WP:ANI.
Padillah: "the comparison to Jewish DNA ancestry is inappropriate and could be construed as anti-semitic" -- It is anti-semitic, lol. This article is about the Palestinian people. Why on earth is Jewish DNA even being brought up here? What's the relevancy? ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 21:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The comparison may be in reliable sources, but that says nothing of the fact that it is an irrelevant, fringe theory.
"its interesting" is a red herring, because the claims are still irrelevant to the topic of this article.
If you'd like, you could try to contribute this information to Semite#Ethnicity and race. However even that section is again misleading because it fails to note the fact that there is no such thing as a "race", as it is understood traditionally, and current speculations about it based on population genetics are original research. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 22:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Who says this article does need DNA section is nuts!
The jews used the semitic right of return in 1950 to give immigration nationality certificates to what became the citizens of Israel on the basis that they are descendents of the Semites ( descendents of Abraham of the Bible, descendents of The Ancient Israelites who lived in Palestine pre 120AD , that their ancestors were citizens of the area in ancient times, any or one of the above). The DNA studies prove that Jews ( sephard Mizrahi and Ashkenazim) are not descendents of the ancient Israelites( their ancestors never set foot in the Holy Land or near it) using the three types of DNA ( Y chromosome mtDNA and Autosomal tchromosomes) all theree testings found the jews alien to the area and their haplogroups (Y DNA, mtDNA) and Autosomal SNPs are originated in areas far away from the middle East and never been to it in the past. (Now if you don't have something you can not give it , right?) The current jewshave no ancestry to a man ( abraham or otherwise) who lived in Palestine and his descendents or adherents LIVED in that Area) so even if spiritual ancestry does not exist ( claiming that a pool of different people claimed Israelite status still does not fly either) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotect}} Could whomever protected this page please add a {{protection}} banner of some sort. I had no idea what was going on nor why the "History" and "Edit This Page" were missing.
Also, please remove the "DNA clues" section as it is completely uncalled for, not based in fact, and could be construed as anti-semitic. Thank you. Padillah ( talk) 18:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Somehow I feel that the DNA discussion is not moving in the most constructive manner. Here are some suggestions:
Thanks for your consideration. Hope this is helpful. Thanks, HG | Talk 02:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Can anybody check for me what Keilana final decision of removing the protection by removing the protection and then adding it one minute later!!! in the page history ( as a response to Sandstein and others to remove the unjust protection) can anybody explain to me the last edits in page History? I am really baffled. and need help to request recalling protection ( of Ed Gies that is whose sudden interfernce was protected without him even discussing his cut in the discussion page and presenting any evidence at all!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 03:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC) Palestinians have the right to have DNA clues section like Mulanugin peoples of West virginia (400 people) and many other ethnicitis who have DNA clues in Wiki! DNA ancestry studies sailed only in 2000! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 03:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I am shocked about the double standards used in this article: When many comparative studies with jews showing a relation were inserted in the article for years, nobody complained ot said that comparative studies is ORIGINAL THEORY, but when the most recent studies of 2004-2007 showed no relation and I reported them, a jolt broke out, and the claim or original research!
Every thing I added was recent research ( see the references I brought in) ( notice that recent research overrule older research, especially in DNA genealogy field that started in 2000 only) For example of recent research "Genetic evidence for the expansion of Arabian tribes" 2001 Nebet et Al mentions that the Arab of the 7th century expansion have the signature named CAII 22-22, I added the page of Nebet (2007) where he says that the Cohanim CMH also is a CAII 22-22!!!, and all arab haplotypes(GMH SMH BMH etc) and CMH are locusted in CAII 22-22 shaded area of the Arabs of 7th century expansion!!?. Also check this strange statement: (While it is also found in Jewish populations (<15%), haplogroup J2 (M172)( of eight sub-Haplogroups), is almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (<29%).[100][101][102][103][104] ) This statement is deceiving. It makes the layman thinks that jews still have more than the Arabs in J ( J1 and J2) (!?) as if every thing J is jewish! and all the references 100-104 references are misplaced sometime in the last few months because they are about that J1 being semitic ( so I moved them to their proper original place at J1 explanation where in the past j1 was mentioned as the only one is considered semitic ( 4 refs for that!) The palestinians have the right to tell the world that they are semitic!. according to the 4 refs!. (semitic means semitic speaking peoples ( I added also this explanation). I added the studies that mentions that jews are not related to palestinians but more related to Georgians and Italians ( and also russian along with georgians and italians (as in the Autosomal testing ref I brought in) ( there is no theory in that nor is it antisemetic( can you see anything antisemetic about jews differ from Arabs!?. I did not mention any theory in the article, but did mention my conclusion and other more data ( not published yet in the artcile but they are still from recent studies about K1 and H1 female haplogroups) in the talk page!!! ( is this allowed?- I think so, right?)
I also reported that if the "gene flow study" is not removed ( being racist and not true) then I suggested we add the research that found that Jewish women by far 99% are not originated in the middle East, to prove that the premise of "the gene flow study" was wrong! hence the conclusion is wrong! ( did you hear about inference engine? if Premise is A then Destination(conclusion) is B ) I am also surprised by the so Unbiased Administrator who protected the article after Ed Geis cut all my work! even though he did nothing BUT cut my work!!!?? for no reason other than his opinion ( the non referenced opinion!!!), Keilana protected his/her outrageous major cut in which he added no refs to his action, not on the article itself and not in the discussion page!? I think Keilana chose protection of either my contrib or his cut in a 50% 50% roll of a penny and obviously was not predetermined (NOT!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 01:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The section is big for the reason that the info in Haplogroup Y-DNA J is repeated in the article (readers can just click on J1 or J2 and read about it in its page. However my contributaion is not found anywhere in Wiki pages yet( the referenced new research ) such new points are: Paletinians have high J1 considered semitic (4 ref) J1 of Palestinians is same haplotype of ancient jews as in Cohen CMH evidence (2 ref). The palestinians were found to not closely match jews (4 ref) , and that is it! I will present you with a version of DNA clues section that is really short and referenced to the bone. No theory should be mentioned such as jews are impostering on the lineage Abraham or the ancient Israelites or the Palestinians true lineage. Is this a good resolution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
And why then the section about resemblance between the two was inserted into the article for years !!and nobody in the administrators cared about previous complaints that said this is not true or related?, the administrators rejected the complaints??( that was few months ago). I think it is important to explain in DNA clues section that the Palestinians are the true semites and that they descended from the jews and arabs who inhabited palestine upon the start of Diaspora and to mention that indeed the current Arabs ( including the Palestinians) are very closely related to the ancient Israelites ( Cohen CMH evidence). There is nothing wrong about all this nor is it anti-semitic ( for God sake).
As per the section (( the palestinians were found not to closely match jews, etc---) it was taken to the letter from Dienekes anthropology web blog ( a grade A critique of Scientific DNA research by Dienekes one of the oldest researcher in the field!! also from rootsweb forum ( a scientific dialogue between the top scientiscts and critics of the field)!!My contributions lately did not make a theory (( the Palestinians are found to not match jews --etc..etc)) is not a theory: it is in Nebet et Al 2001 who is already mentioned in the article plus the above mentioned forums with solid gold references as I added them. So where is the so called Crack-pot theory in my contrib? The fact that current arabs and cohanim descende firmly from same ancestor of the Cohanim? or
that Jews don't match palestinians as a whole? both of these two points were added to by my contrib( but were already in the article!) and which one of them is the antisemitic???!!!!
Hope Ed Gies, the unknown unreachable batman, could answer that or his fellow supporters ( they are many- and clearly say they are jews in their personal talk pages and they have also contributed many of the anti-Palestinians defamatory and inflamatory and disrespectful remarks with out ever any bosy bother to lable them as anti-semitic even though Palestinians are Semetic people who speak semetic language (arabic)descendent from Abraham as the bible claim etc) and are actually included in the us anti-semetism law of 1940 something —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 07:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
To Zenwhat:
It is not true that race is original research or untrue!
in dienekes wob blog in 2007 some studies found evidence of the relation between race and genetics and genetics and language.
You info are so 80's.
I would like to add concerning DNA clues section that In 1950 The Israeli government Issued (the Semetic Law of Return) as a law. It was a response to UN famous law requiring the right of palestinians to return to their homes!
The Semetic Law of Return was a retaliation on the un that the People who lived in 100 AD ( 2000 years ago) and left their country then, are more deserving of the right of return. The difinition of those people was: every person whose mother or grand mother is jewish.
To know that the government gave the authority to decide that to rabbies who certified that by providing evidence such as the mother was married to a jew etc or registered as a jew in some synogoge around the world and approved by a rabbi that this woman is a so called a direct descendent of Ancient Israelites or even Abraham ( all according to rabbies decisions and configurations such as checking for circumcision etc).
The recent DNA studies , However, shows that the overwhelming majority of jewish women are not descendent from a people who resided in Middle East by any chance of imagination ( since K1 and H1 are absolutely non existant in ME or anywhere else but in Ashkenazim and Polish ROMA people!!!. It is good to mention this in the article because it is very relevant to Palestinians claims of the right to their land and the wrongness of the Law of 1950 Semetic right of return which prevented palestinians to return to their land and instead brought multitude of exclusively Europpean Haplogroup R1a1 and R1b and K1 and H1 and Q and I and J2b etc., who had never existant in ME in history! However this info I did not put in the article yet but just here(discussion) for your eyes and it is also not a theory. and deserves mention and merit in pleight of Palestinians to get back their country. I am not interested in Politics nor do I think politics dependent on peddlars like me. Politics depend on power and big guns ( and Israel have plenty of those). Finally can anybody check for me what Keilana final decision of removing the protection by removing the protection and then adding it one minute later!!! ( as a response to Sandstein and others to remove her unjust protection) can anybody explain to me the last to edits in page History? I am really baffled. and need help to request recalling protection ( of Ed Gies that is)
Thanx a plenty. I start editing before I remember to log in. sorry for that. I will try to shorten the section even more 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 17:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The DNA clues section is a scientific section. this science started in 2000!!! (ie DNA genealogy ancestry). You can not use a 2000 study over a 2006 study, the 2006 study override 2000 study.
and you can not use prepaid scribes like Louis and others of philosophers are NOT references in DNA clues. This is why I cut the Fergus study by a historian who is reminiscent about a study done in 2000 that was faulty in which Nebet 2000 ( and Hammer 1999) found same 9 Haplogroups in both Arabs and Jews. This study made mockery and stupid of scientists, many protested and Nebet el al 2001 verified that jews are more like Kurds than arabs.
Both people have J1, J2( of several subclades in jews and one clade in Arabs!) R1a1, R1b, G , E3b of Berber, E3b of Ethiopians, ( while jews had estra I and Q), BUT Jews have R 50% while Arabs have R at 4%, Jews have E at 35% while Arabs at 10%, J1 in Arabs 60% while in Jews 14% etc.
The existance of same haplogroups in two different populations does not mean they are brothers. You can find the same haplogroups among both Arabs and Europpeans,or Arabs and Iranians, or Arabs and Turkey etc ( or even arabs and chinese!! even though chinese are 90% O, but they still have R in Ugur minority and J1 in muslim chinese minority and J2 in Tajik chinese etc)). All studies of 2000 and 2001 are considered outdated when compared with newer studies in DNA studies ( in Nebet 2000 study the Haplogroups were still even considered Baliatic Haplotypes!) Now we know haplogroups are not haplotypes, only haplotypes are indicator of relationship or recent common ancestry! ( last 4k years). I would urge editors to consider this fact when comparing conflicting studies and what ever critique about them on the net ( who is outdated and who is not etc) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I never put many studies that cause argument( that you consider my theory). You can not put Louis every where as a ref! ( or his likes). Fergus is talking about a study made in 2000 ignoring the many other studies that came after and all the critiques on all them. You can check the Dienekes blog for up to date critique of all DNA studies. It is easy to maneuver. ( Fergus also could have used the same blog). You can read that Fergus is talking about shared haplogroups in the two peoples which means nothing for even newcomer to DNA studies, especially that these days people are flocking to DNA testing companies to check themselves. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 13:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This edit [10] reverts a sourced information sentense that was in the article for weeks and weeks. Clearly she need to discuss before deciding to remove info from Britanika and clearly no one has specific knolwledge on where do the palestinian came from. Some could have been Jewish (the jews came from Iraq and Egypt) , some could have been Egyptians, some came from Syria as late as the 1930s and 40s. etc... Zeq ( talk) 09:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Zeq, you have restored this which makes undiscussed changes to the introduction. Are you unaware of the long discussion regarding the first sentence? Do you think "who describe themself as Palestinian" is an acceptable substitie for "family origins in Palestine"?
Second, the other material you added is redundant, as it restates material discussed at length in the section directly below the introduction, though in a less clear fashion. It also interrupts the flow of the sentence, and you deleted a wikilink I just added that is useful to Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian.
I don't agree with your changes at all and they are highly contentious. I would appreciate it if you could discuss them here and restore the consensus version that was in place before you made these changes as a gesture of good-faith. Thank you. Tiamut talk 09:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
'Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by the Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century'
During the British Mandate of Palestine, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory authorities were granted "Palestinian citizenship".[9]
Following the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people, the use and application of the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian" by and to Palestinian Jews largely dropped from use. The English-language newspaper The Palestine Post for example — which, since 1932, primarily served the Jewish community in the British Mandate of Palestine — changed its name in 1950 to The Jerusalem Post. Jews in Israel and the West Bank today generally identify as Israelis. Arab citizens of Israel identify themselves as Israeli and/or Palestinian and/or Arab.[10]
Now, "family origins" does not imply some eternal timeless nature. People with family origins in Boston do not necessarily have Native American ancestry, etc. If that were the case then the only valid claim of "family origins" would be in sub-Saharan Africa, if not in precambrian ooze. This is pretty basic.
Also, I do not appreciate contradictory claims being introduced to the article without sourcing or attempting to reconcile with what's already there. If Filasteen (est. 1911), addressed its Arabic-literate readers as "Palestinians" while denouncing "foreign" Zionists, than it's hard to see why we'd prominently state that before '48 "the term was used to describe all the inhabitants of Palestine regardless of nationality." Some used the term that way, some used it to describe only the putative Palestinian Arab nation. Passive-voice formulations of this sort are treacherous; they strongly imply uniformity without making them. Let's use the clearest language we possibly can. < eleland/ talk edits> 13:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
"family origins" means that the family originated from that area - this is clearlt not true to many who call themself palestinians. Zeq ( talk) 13:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
<When some of the intensity subsides here, I invite you all to reflect on why this incident has happened. What is the underlying nature or character of this dispute? What unmet needs deserve to be addressed? What can we ask of the other in order to be able to lay down our arms and settle the differences at stake? My own reflections here. Thanks. HG | Talk 14:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC) >
Regards Nishidani ( talk) 16:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)(after 1948)'Israel sought to impede the development of a cohesive national consciousness among the Palestinians by dealing with various minority groups, such as Druze, Circassians, and Bedouin; by hindering the work of the Muslim religious organizations; by arresting and harassing individuals suspected of harbouring nationalist sentiments; and by focusing on education as a means of creating a new Israeli Arab identity.'
Tiamut, in the spirit of communal editing, it is expected to make a proper explanation if there's a chance that your fellow editor missed something. Also, it is expected that full reverts would be minimized and that edits will stick to the problematic issues, rather than the entire edit.
Please explain your revert, since I could not understand why you've made it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
'The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre-World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people.p.29
'The first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [23]
'The first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" by the locals began in the early 1900s. However, before the establishment of Israel in 1948, the term was used to describe all the inhabitants of Palestine regardless of nationality.'
I don't know about what you quarrel but here is some material : concerning the palestinian arab nationalist feeling Ceedjee ( talk) 21:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
It does not matter if you call it (palestinian nation ) or (holy land nation ) or whatsoever. It is a nation regardless of when the word was used. The term Palestine was forced into use by the Imperial powers ( France and Britain) on the area better known to its inhabitants and the world as the Holy Land or (Land of Quds) in Arabic meaning The Land of Holy (Quds =Jerusalem). name it Palestine or Holy Land it does not matter, what matters that it was a unique land with unique population separated from surrounding area by good natural borders ( Sinai desert, South Lebanon Rocky lands ), jordan river and beyond iyt the owrst desert ever known to man, The mountains of Jolan, etc. The peple inside this land were the Arabs in absolute majority with few hundred people ( samaritans) and less than that in sephardim (traveling jews) residing in just two places ( old city of jerusalem ) and Safad city, and one family in Tel Aviv. The arabs are made up of 10% christians ( christians call themselves Arabs and belong to the Gassanite Tribe in matheir majority, the Christian Arabs of Israel demand the Israeli state to add the word Arab to them as Israeli Arabs. (0% are muslims, However both Arabs (muslims and christians) are in Part descendents of the ancient jews who followed their messiah Jesus and continued to saty in the land and became known as christians. ( historically it is known that the jews split in half between pro Jesus and anti Jesus, the anti Jesus perished in their uprising in Jerusalem in 70 AD during a festival where almost all jews came to the city and locked themselves in the city ( one a half million are said to perished in 70AD), the remaining jews of Palestine did another uprising in 120 (Bar Kohba) and perished. After that no jews survived in the holy land and nobod immigrated from the holy land because no body survived. But there was jews in Iraq ( mostly kurdish converts) who allied themselves with the Persian empire and attacked Jerusalem twice ( twice killed christians and desctroyed the Church of Nativity. the last one was just few years before islamic conquest in 635 AD. The original jews did not leave Palestine and there was no diaspora in 70 AD or 120 AD ( no records from surrounding countries reveal such exodus). The jews of Palestine continued to live there as the Christians up to this day (as christians and as muslims) and some jews continued to live in very small numbers in closed villages, untill they all converted to Islam or Christianity . Palestinians are a nation by the fact they have their own distinct Arabic dialect that goes back to phoenician times, and the names of their villages are the same of the names found in a ncient archaeological discoveries ( like Kfar, Beit, etc) The current israelies kept some of these names like Bersheva ( Be'ir Sabe'a) and Negev (Naqab) tel Aviv ( Tal Abib) for example, but you can see that V letter does not exist in ancient Hebrew or semitic languages and so the israeli city names ar obvious vandalism of gothic people (Yiddish speaking khazar ) trying to use speak an alien semitic language ! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 09:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
So what is your point? do you think the native americans differ from Red Indians? aren't they the same people? same people but different names according to who name them that! Palestinians are nation , they call themselves Maqdisites ( people of the land of Quds(jerusalem and the holy land around it (from See to dead sea). the reason Palestine is the used name by its resident and others is because of historical precedent. When the Greek took over the area 330 BC they named it Palestine in remembrence of the Philistes who were from greek islands (sea people) who attacked all shores and lived for few hundred years in Tel Aviv Ashkelon Gaza areas), when the Romans took over they renamed the area Syria ( in remembrence of their cousins the assyrians (trojans (proto-romans) and assyrians were cousins), when the arabs took over they reused the old name in 700 AD, then the name diappeared untill the Europpean powers implied on the Ottoman empire in treaties ( after beating the ottomans in several wars (Balkan wars, Crimean wars etc) to name the Maronite area in Lebanon as Lebanon and the Holy land area as Palestine. at that time the city of Akka (Acre) was the capital of the province of Syria ( and the governer of Syria Ahmad Pasha al jazzar actually defeated Napolion at the walls of the capital Ackre (acca) in 1805? right? . Khalif Sulaiman bin Abdul Malik chose Jerusalem as the Capital of the Umayyad Khilafate, and was the capital of umayyad again, later. Acre (akka0 was the kapital for hundred years 1800.
As you can see there are a lot of reasons why they are a nation ( ie Palestinian in your word, Maqdisites in their own word, etc) they had a capital, they have a dialect they have many many special cusines ( cheese, halva, baklava, Orange, Falafel etc) in their name. They had the Holy Sacred Al Aqsa Mosque which was also a school ( the crusaders killed 22000 students of that school when they took jerusalem in 1099 and did not spare those students who were non combatants but scholars from other places. whatelse about reasons to call them a nation? Ah: throwing stones at their enemies in battles ( from the time of David who slew Goliath with stone). many many thingds indeed 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 10:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
what reference do you want about what? that native americans are the same as red indian or Palestinians are the same as Ard Maqdes( Holy land)? or the refrence that European powers forced the Ottomans to name the area Palestine instead of arabic Filistine or you want a refrence that it was called filistine and or Ard almaqdes by the natives. when the arabs came to palestine Jerusalem was called Elia Quds by the christians ( meaning Holy of Ilia (allah)*, before the christian byzantium the pagan romans called Ilia Capitolina, before that Jews called it Ha Maqdesh ( read the bible) it was never called Jerusalem by anybody ( only the jews of the converted diaspora called it Jerusalem based on the forfeited copy of the Old testament. In the original copy of the old testament found in Dead Sea Scrolls it is called HaMaqdesh never Jerusalem ) or Yerusalem was ever mentioned). It's name was ever Quds by ancient jews later christians and muslims and in the bible ( the original bible not the masoretic one) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
where did you read that alia was Hadrian family name, wouldn't rather be Jalianus Ha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 18:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
If there is some basic that "we're talking about the post-1922 mandate", it is most certainly unclear from the text. Either Jordan is inserted into account, to that this 1922 matter should be clarified in the article. Personally, being that Jordan has 3M Palestinians (not 2 as I originally thought), I believe it most certainly be mentioned... however, I have no objection that the paragraph will be clarified instead. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamut (and only Tiamut), in the spirit of communal editing, it is expected to make a proper explanation if there's a chance that your fellow editor missed something. Also, it is expected that full reverts would be minimized and that edits will stick to the problematic issues, rather than the entire edit.
Please explain your revert, since I could not understand why you've made it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
p.s. To all, per WP:CIV and WP:AGF, please avoid talk page accusations of WP:Own, baiting, editorializing, slipshod misleading, disingenuous, etc. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 21:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamut, I just want a proper content based explanation on this edit [16].
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 12:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
During the British Mandate of Palestine, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to all people residing there, regardless of religion or ethnicity, and those granted citizenship by the Mandatory authorities were granted "Palestinian citizenship".[9] Following the 1948 establishment of the State of Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people, the use and application of the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian" by and to Palestinian Jews largely dropped from use. The English-language newspaper The Palestine Post for example — which, since 1932, primarily served the Jewish community in the British Mandate of Palestine — changed its name in 1950 to The Jerusalem Post. Jews in Israel and the West Bank today generally identify as Israelis. Arab citizens of Israel identify themselves as Israeli and/or Palestinian and/or Arab.[10]
Tiamut, Please respond to my raised points. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC) There is no relation between who was called Palestinian before the 2nd wold war and Palestinian people, just as there is no relation between Apachi people and white settlers in their area who called themselves Apachi people, and the citizenships given between the two world war were given by The Occupying British so who got citizenship do not count Palestinian people as well! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 01:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Jaakobou, hi. The Talk and diffs aren't so easy to follow. I'm wondering if you, Tiamut, Zeq, CO'48 and the others could please list, in a concise way, the disputed text/content items in the lead paragraphs. Here's a guess, please correct or revise these as needed.
Also, in what order would you all like to discuss these items (if they are still contested)? Finally, it looks like people are talking about expectations such as minimize reverts, narrow re-editing, respect for existing work, etc. When an article is disputed, it would be helpful to agree on raising the usual expectations, right? Thanks very much. HG | Talk 23:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The following is based on an editorial view that we are writing this for the benefit of the readers and the title of the article is Palestinian people, now and before. Please consider an encyclopedic, historical perspective to consider which of these two edits is more correct. My perspective sides with the P-side, as my partial revert indicates; that is not to say that the I-side edit is necessarily incorrect, but the edit's placement is too prominent in the second para.
My perspective: The Jewish immigrants (returnees) of that time came to re-establish Eretz Israel; they were not motivated to become Palestinians, except by happenstance of history and geography. That said, I see this edit as being overly political for the I-side to now demand that this homogenizing edit should be so prominently displayed to describe who the Palestinian people are; were then, maybe.
My reasons: The pre-Hertzl first Aliyah was religious, Eretz Israel, 30k people; the post-Hertzl, second Aliyah was Zionist, more secular, more socialist/communist, 40k people from Pale and Pogroms, but millions more to the Americas. These pioneering Jews in Palestine were religious and/or Zionists armed only with a dream of a ‘Jewish state’, faith and history (and Hashomer, which indicates existing P-side oppositional nationalism). They had no formal foundation until after Balfour, which is their legal international keystone, upon which they built. After (Sykes-Picot, Hussein-McMahon and) Balfour all bets were off, the split became open, all had been pawns of an empire. After Balfour, they were all in Palestinian yes, but they were definitely not homogeneous; quite distinctly they were either Palestinian Jews/Zionists or they were "existing non-Jewish communities in Palestinian", Palestinians. I do not believe NPOV editors can now tell the readers that this homogeneity really existed, except in a ‘yes, but’ statement deeper in the article. I do believe that this edit shows too much Zion-ishness to be NPOV. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The what you called The Jewish immigrants (returnees), are not returnees. Their haplogroups DNA signatures prove that 95% of them never been descendents of the people who lived there ( regardless if they were the jews or phonenecians etc). check DNA clues discussion, nor they are immigrants, because they did not immigrate but invaded. They did not get permission from the owners of the land but rather from the British who were invaders of Palestine ( sworn enemies of Palestinians since Richard the Lion Heart killed 10000 muslims in Ackre a 900 years ago, and since then where ever you find a British soldier dies in any given battle in history you find a PALESTINIAN soldier dies from the other side of the same battle (crusade wars, Ottoman English wars, Ottoman Europpean wars, Spaniards -Moorish wars etc etc untill the present.
So Brithish have no right to give passport or residency to other people to the Holy land. The Palestinians killed thousands of British soldiers between 1936 1939 for example. The British participated and taught the jews in the Night command raids in and around Haifa during the 1947 war. The jews who were brought to Palestine in the years leading to 1947 were all young strong men and women who were not in need of becoming refugees( 90% were young military trained) Hagana Stern gangs recrueted in these gangs way before they landed in Palestine ( in Checkoslovakia and Poland) like Menahem Begen and Isaac Shamir etc. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 10:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh yes? Do you have a better evidence than DNA? what evidence you have they are returnees? may be some picture of your grand grand grand mother on the family friendly cruise ship "Trans Byzanta" with the palestinian coast in the background in the year 120 AD 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)?
Padillah; I was away for just one day; and have come back to see the same old Wikipedia. I don’t think that what transpired yesterday is fair. Instead on harping on what was wrong; let’s rather move ahead in the right way in the future.
< http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-45075/Palestine> Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica source in its entirety on which the second paragraph is based on:
Palestine and the Palestinians (1948–67) - The term "Palestinian". Henceforth the term Palestinian will be used when referring to the Arabs of the former mandated Palestine, excluding Israel. Although the Arabs of Palestine had been creating and developing a Palestinian identity for about 200 years, the idea that Palestinians form a distinct people is relatively recent. The Arabs living in Palestine had never had a separate state. Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by the Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century; at the same time, most saw themselves as part of the larger Arab or Muslim community. The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre-World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people. But after 1948—and even more so after 1967—for Palestinians themselves the term came to signify not only a place of origin but, more importantly, a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.
This source was used; but for some odd reason, some words were changed to say something else then what it actually says. I had to correct the second paragraph twice to make it say what its source is saying. When two reversions to my corrections failed; all of a sudden some editors decided that we don't need those parts of this source. Until my correction, the false information was ok to them; but the corrected quote is now bothersome to them. To avert an edit war; I'll incorporate both parts of that source; the part which refers to the development of a Palestinian identity and also the part which refers to its development as recent. Both parts aren't liked to either side of the conflict; but we as Wikipedians can't pick and choose which parts we like and which we don't like. I would agree that not every word of this source has to be quoted; but I think it fair that at least, every deletion or addition should be explained or discussed; why some words should and some shouldn't be there. I have edited a first version for that paragraph, based on how it stood two days ago, with the addition of more of that source; and let’s take it from there; thanks. Itzse ( talk) 00:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I ask you not to revert my change; but let Padillah analyze my edit; and let others weigh in on this. I have to leave now, but in short; I agree with you that we don't need the entire EB piece. But deciding on your own which to include and which not, would be in essence doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. I do understand that the article as is doesn't reflect your POV; nor does it mine; but fairness is fairness; Both POV's need to be here; especially if the EB entry is tilted towards the Palestinians but nevertheless gives us some historical perspective. Itzse ( talk) 01:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
People may have noticed that I have deleted some material as not relevant to the topic. As I said above, I think that the section should be shorter and confine itself to discussion of the genetic make-up of Palestinian people only. It can only stray into the territory of which populations have the most right to live in Israel/Palestine if good sources themselves comment on this issue. I'm not going to push it very far at present. My main concern is that the section is difficult to follow and not well written. Although it cites many academic sources, some of these may not be relevant to the question in hand, as their main focus is on different territories, e.g. Crete. They may still be usable but the context should be made clear and we should be especially careful not to misrepresent them or to arrive at an original synthesis. Hope this helps. If anyone wants to revert me, please remember that the onus is on those who want material included to provide the justification why. Thanks, and thanks to HG for his message on my talk page and friendly invitation to join in the discussion. I have come to this page having seen the message on the fringe theories noticeboard. Itsmejudith ( talk) 16:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by ( It can only stray into the territory of which populations have the most right to live in Israel/Palestine if good sources themselves comment on this issue)? did you just made a decision on behalf of the palestinians? or do you just believe that Istraelis and jews have the right to part of Palestine for an evidence you know about but we don't know about because we can not handle the truth? Where have you been for a long time? we needed some one like you to settle things quickly, and every body live happily ever after. The Point of the DNA clues (Clues!): is to show that Palestinians are descendents of all the people who lived there from ancient times ( including the ancient Israelites) and that the current occupiers of Palestines ( Israelis) are NOT descendents of those people ( hence they are not returnees or inheritors female and male lineages and even autosomal DNA) of the Ancient Israelies or the Ancient philistines, phoenicians and even passers-bye in the land in ancient times!
So thanx but thanx. Don't cut anything or replace it with out a solid DNA study that is not nullified or outdated! Thank you very much. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 16:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Concerning the statement (DNA evidence is not considered conclusive proof of anything), it is obiously vey wrong. For example if a father had two sons A and B and DNA testing proved that A is not brother of B, and A is not son of the father, then it is powerful evidence stronger than the father and sons claims(period).
I have brought very powerful evidence to the conclusion that jews and israeli jews are NOT descendents ( in overwhelming majority) to people who ever lived in the middle East pre 120 AD, regardless if they were a pool of different people or descendent of one man or lived in Palestine as the ancient Israelites or phoenicians or even just passers by. For any such people they would difinetely leave a mark ( same haplogroup) in that land from their current DNA! ( if there are no marks there then the current jews' ancestors NEVER been in the Middle East (particularly Palestine and even the surrounding area). The Current Jews' ancestors have to have the same DNA markers of the Current Jews, and these markers should exist in Middle East ( and specially palestine and surrounding area) since in 2000 years is a very very recent time in DNA markers ( especially the Haplogroups). As I explained by lieu of DNA researchers in 2007/12 as recent as to 12/2007 and as old as 2005 ( coffman) and 2001 (nebet et al 2000) ( the DNA ancestry studies started in 2000!), that female lineage markers K1 (40% of Eastern ashkenazim) and H1, H3, H6 (of both E and W ashkenazim) are difinetely Not been in the ME or now. same thing goes for the rest of female markers minus (2%) and 55% of male lineage markers ( R1a1 R1b and I and Q ) and E and J2 and G (another 40%). Only J1 could have been the Haplogroup of ancient Israelites ( found highly in Cohanim people who follow Paternal lineage as contrary to Female lineage "Jewish Tradition" in rest of jews). Ashkenazim and sephardim still have higher J1 ( 13%)than Mizrahi who have only 8% of J1!. that makes 12% of male lineage and 2% of female lineages could possibly had been in the middle east in and around palestine) . for not being married to each other these haplogroups( male J1 and 2% female L and N females) , they could not possibly restore any of the supposedly ancient Israelites ( if we submit that indeed all the 12% males and all 2% females are indeed of the ancient Israelites ( highly unlikely but they could be a genetic drift from nations with same haplogroups such as arabs and assyrians romans etc). Finally Jews still have little J1 percentage than the ardent of NON SEMITIC ( NON semitic language speakers) peoples such as Georgians and Armenians ( both have 20% J1 each for example ) Turkey and Kurds and Iran have also more J1 percentage than jews. while we know that J1 is a genetic drift from Arabs in Armenia and Georgians, the 13% J1 in Jews could also be in majority a genetic drift from the Arabs too!) My contribution were cut by a Ed Gies ( unreachable) and still waiting for his response as to why he cut all that brand new references without presenting his evidence unless if he knew more than us because the bird on the window told him that of which he is pretty sure it is the truth and nothing but the truth. he cut also the DNA autosomal testing which many predicted will take years to take place but thanks to a patent by MIT graduate from Pensylvania two companies started making them and already have a huge date of Ashkenazim (300 persons) in one company, all of them are classified as Europpean origin ( closest match to Irtalian and Russians 50% but only 2% to Arabs and Middle Eastern peoples!)
As for itsmejudith she clearly said that DNA studies should not infringe on more than the lands that palestinians are entitled to? what does that mean for God sake? does that mean that (itsmejudith and friends) might decide to give some of the palestinians some of palestine, or is she the special envoy of some new world government she is presenting their messege? Even if that was such!, why not present the truth (DNA evidence)regardless of political negotiations or ramufications. Can't we for example talk about the historical evidence that native american were wiped out and cheated on in the last two centuries? or we should decist because every thing is settled now, and no need for knowing the past any more?? 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 07:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I just don't know where Steve bting these unreferenced statements every now and then: (DNA evidence will not, does not, and has not affected the status of political claims on any issue or set of peoples) No! it is not true, and I said it again and again, talking about the Native americans what happened to them in the past has nothing to do with political negotiations, nor am I interested or willing to negotiate with the people who stole my house! it is just plain truth, just telling the truth as it is seen. There is no evodence that the Current jews did really leave Palestine in 120 AD ( No historical documents whatsoever!!, nobody ever witnessed people immigrating from Palestine then! No Road of Sorrows ) like the one known about the Native Americans being deported and moving west in 19th century! Got a historical evidence of such movement of Jewish peoples out of Palestine in 120 AD? Present it then for God sake!.
The DNA evidence proves that the Current jews are NOT ( are NOT) descendents from people lived ( passed by) Palestine area in the distant past ( not even the recent past in the last thousand uear for example for majority of jews still (Haplogroup R1a1 R1b I Q, H1 H3 H6, K1 ( of the Roma gypsies and Ashkenasim etc etc). If they ever been to Palestine they undoubtedly wold have left ( at leats one person with any of K1 H1 H3 H6m Q , nade none do you understand??) Do you know what nada Not none Never mean?? 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
to itsmejudith, you show your biased perception in this statement of yours (there are good sources that compare the linkage to the area of the Palestinians and one or more Jewish populations), you are hence implying that since palestinians have some of the haplogroups found in CURRENT jews then they are descendents of ancient inhabitants of Palestine!!??? this is utter stupidity!! There is no evidence that Current jews descend from Ancient inhabitants of Palestine other than your perception that they are ( biblical bilief or trusting the media of lies). It should be interpreted the other way around that Current jews have partially some people who descended from ancient inhabitants ! The study of Hammer et al 2000 that caused a stirr is that if two people have the same haplogroups pool does NOT mean that they are related at all, because the same haplogroups are also shared by the palestinians and many many many other nations ( any given Europpean nation ). The question is in the percentage? Jews have 50% of Europpean R while palestinians have #% of this Europpean R!!. Palestinians have 80% of Semitic J1 while CUrrent Jews have ONLY 13% ( less than what the Armenians a non semitic people have of J1 (20%) caused by gene flow from the Arabs who ruled them for a millenia!!! Current jews have R1a1 to Q ratio exactly the same ratio found in Uralic and Altaic populations ( surely who must be same ratio of the ancient Khazar!!) no Q is found in Middle East ( it is the smoking gun of the khazar!) it is Eurasian ( north of the Caucasian mountains). as for women Haplogroups of Ashkenazi K1 the biggest one is not found ever in middle east ( it is only found in Ashkenazim and Roma oeiole of Poland Only ( Khazar were wafons people like gypsies a nation on wheels!) All evidence suggest that both women and men of Jews ( ashkenazim and sephardim at least who are 95% of all current jews) while the situation for Mizrahi jews is much much worse ( they have even less J1 and lots of G Caucasian Medes, and H of Dravidian India!!). The latest Autosomal DNA testing that Bernstein and other DNA researchers thought that won't be available till 2015 at least had started in 2007 and shows that Ashkenazim autosomal profile is next match to Italians and then Russians!!?? with similarity of only 2% to middle eastern populations ( Autosomal testing depend on a good choice of SNPs ( permanent mutations for thousands of years) found in the remaining DNA ( 46 chromosome) other than Y DNA SNPs( male lineage) and female DNA signature ( found in X chromosome). what else do you want to prove that Current jews are lied to by their rabbies that they somehow hold the Abraham lineage ( if not through males, then through females( talk about K1 of the gypsies who are null found in middle east or any where else in the world other than ashkenazim and gypsies!!).
The villana study is stupid because it is made in 2002 but still uses a marker of disease genes! found in all nations of the world, to prove relative between palestinians and jews ( after the fact that STRs of Haplotypes were discovered in mid 80's and SNPs of Haplogroups discovered and categorized in 1998!. Nebet et al and Hammer also used haplotypes instead of Haplogroups in 2000!!! to prove a relation between the two!? even though haplotypes are found across Haplogroups!!!??? ( Haplotype convergence), the stirr caused by these two articles forced Nebet in a follow up study ( ie same data)2001 that JEWS WERE FOUND TO BE MORE SIMILAR TO KURDS AND ARMINIANS of middle east!) than to their ARAB NEIGHBORS (AND EVEN THEIR CO-religionists jews of mizrahi! and Middle Eatern Jews small minorities)( meaning jews resemble their nations of origin more than they resemble each other!!). Finally the comparative studiy of Refero relato says that Arabs are a mix ( not true , since Arabs and particularly Palestinians are the most homogenous people in the world minus chinese and Indonesians and the extinct natives of the Americas. So saying Arabs are a Mix ( compared to what?) J1 is mainly in arabic countries borders and it is the majority of haplogroup in Palestinians ( even only one cluster of Modal Haplotypes of that J1! ((amazing, nothing like that in any other country or nation in the whole wide world [18] click on results page --The Y-Haplogroup J DNA Project- Results section--64-marker Network with Labeled Clusters:
75.72.88.121 ( talk) 15:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It was not a comparative study between jews and kurds. It was a comparative study between jews and Palestinians, but the study found that jews were more similar to non semitic ( non semitic speakers) kurds and armenians than the arabs. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 23:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
For consideration: Gelvin book cover and Khalidi book cover. (removed non-free images per policy) HG | Talk 03:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
There are some great images in the article, but several long sections about identity without any images. How about adding the covers to the Khalidi and Gelvin books, which are both prominently mentioned (esp Khalidi) in the text? (See reduced thumbnails.) I think they'll add to the quality of the article, at least for those long prose sections. If you object or have serious concerns, please state your reasoning. Thanks. HG | Talk 15:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree to the two covers because the gelvin picture shows a non palestinian the Israelis who stole their country, I did not see this discussion before, I demand it removed and the picture of khalidi because it gives nothing to the article at all nor the book is famous nor a wiki reader would want to buy it, also the two covers are advertisement to sell books! and make readers be infuenced by the authors of these two books. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
There have been a number of changes to the intro that have not been discussed. They don't (IMHO) siginificantly improve the intro. In fact, they make it more difficult to understand the topic at hand and break with Wiki conventions in that they don't summarize the article, but rather provide a historical backdrop. I'm going to try to restore parts of the old introduction and move some of the material added to the intro into the body (where appropriate) later on tonight. This will take some time. Your patience and support in restoring the lead to match conventions is appreciated. Tiamut talk 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Suddenly Tiamut showed who she really is ( an Insraeli mole prtending to be palestinian so she can write as if she represents palestinians while she is a ctually a mosad. Where in the world do you see TERMS ( with an S highlighted) in those same term written in arabic and english or transliated to english in english pronuciation! Second why take of the flag of Palestine and the map of palestine and the Coat of Arms of Palestine and the 1928 stamp of palestine and the medeival map of jerusalem showing the Dome and other Islamic and chritian monument as is now and shows no jewish things at all! why cut the fact that The helenic empire indeed named the Current day Palestine ( wothout phoenicia of lebanon or with out Jordan or syria as Palestine governate? . For being so anti-palestinian you could not help but cut palestinian identity proofs against what is expected of you as a supposedly a Pro palestinian as you claim in your discusasions. It is thanks to you and the other imposters on palestinians that the article written as from the mouth of a palestinian hate monger rabbi. Hertzel and Jabotinsky could not have done better. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
When you remove all the strong evidence that Palestinians are a Nation ( flag, land, history, historical marks such as Dome of the Rock which stayed unchanged for 1400 years and considered the most beautiful structure on earth, it is obiously you are ant palestinians. and thanks to you and other so called palestinians on this article that the article as it is now could not have written better by Hertzel or Jabotensky if they wanted to!!?? Palestine as name of the same area was first used by The Greek from 330 BC ( why in the world you want to cut that as a palestinian yourself as you claim) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC) identity of people: Land, Folklore (cuisine, sagas, dance music costumes, etc) and heritage ( dome of the rock!, minerates) religion, resistance, historicity of name and area ( palestine name as used by greek for the same area known as palestine now ), etc. So costumes are important for identity! ( in the heart of identity) they are not in the art of the world section (palestinian costumes). You are obviously very educated and supposedly you already know that, but you happen to got an outrage of all this new evidence of identity and your real self resurfaced ( a mossad agent or a person working for the historically illegal state of Israel) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 19:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Palestinian people ( Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha'ab il-filastini), Palestinians ( Arabic: الفلسطينيين, al-filastiniyyin), or Palestinian Arabs ( Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني, al-'arabi il-filastini) is a term ( Arabic translation provided)used by Palestinians and Arabic and Muslim world (less than 2 billion people) and the rest of the world, that refers to the Arabic speaking people who were inhabiting Palestine pre the 1948 Arab-Israeli War before a self declared state later known as Israel made of jewish people who were allowed entry into Palestine by the Colonial British Empire between 1918 and 1947. Palestine is better known as the Holy Land "Ardul-Maqdes"(in Arabic) by its natives the Palestinians and the Islamic and Arabic world for the last 1400 years. The area was named Jund-u-Filastine " meaning the "district of Palestine" by the Islamic Khilafate since the 7th century (see Etymology) The Arabs living in Palestine had never had a separated state but Jerusalem and Acre were capitals for the Islamic Khilafate in the 7th century during Umayyad Khalif Sulaiman ibn Abdul-Malik and as a capitol of Great Syria Province during the 19th century respectively. Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was begun to be used by the Arabs at the middle of the 19th century when the Allied powers ( France and Britain )forced the Ottoman Empire to designate the area as Palestine and so that Britain would be given special privilages in Palestine and assigh a special consolate in Palestine.
This doesn't belong in the introduction, none of it is sourced, and it hardly makes any sense. Most of what is relevant is covered in the section on "Etymology". If you feel something is missing or needs restating in the introduction, please make your case for it here before reinserting the same text. Thanks. Tiamut talk 20:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not ignoring your requests.
You deleted referenced materials but you did not provide a reference for your action (major delete) other than a concensus!.
A concensus is not a reference! especially if this concensus is between a buch of anti-palestinians editing a palestinian article.
I a palestinian hereby do not agree to any such concensus
Sincerely
75.72.88.121 (
talk)
20:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The flag map embelm and medeival image are references by themselves! and sources. They are very important to palestinians they should be at top ( hey, like other peoples articles such as Melogenin people of West verginia for god sake (400 people only) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Moving the symbols of Palestinians identity from the top and hiding them in the article is not civil and insult to the palestinians ( I am one of them) as any idiot in the world knows!
My contributions were not degrading the article ( never I put anything unreferenced by a very very powerful reference). Your actions were attack on the palestinians ( ask any stupid person from the street) other than the Wikipedia civilized administrators and or arbitrators and so called mediators.
I would like to hetherto from now on declare that I am against the supposedly -happened in the past concensus!
As an editor that contributed much to wikipedia I challenge any wikipedian or other to bring one of my edits that was not referenced ! The introduction of the article started with attacks on Palestinians and with this ( while palestinians....) Obviously this is a weak introduction lingually. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Images speak better than words! Palestinian flag is older than the Israeli flag. The German Medeival traveller who made a drawing of Jerusalem with minerates and the same Dome of the Rock we see now is obviously not a forger. These items should be at top, and again I repeat that wikipedia treat Palestinians in the same manner as they treat native americans or the Apachi or comanchi people articles ( or the Melonugin people of west virginia of 400 people who got all that plus a DNA section and studies for god sake). I hereby accuse Wikipedia of defaming Palestinians and discriminating against them, as in the arbitration requests jews are requesting restrictions on palestinian articles. like: Here a letter from a wiki to me just now
(As a result of an Arbitration case, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, all articles related to Israel and Palestine and related disputes are placed under broad discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
This message places you on notice that the sanctions apply to your editing of these articles, which is the subject of a current complaint at WP:ANI. At this stage, you are only being informed of the sanctions, however, if may becomes necessary to apply individual sanctions. Addhoc (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)) . Wiki is a not a free encycopedia but -un-free encyclopedia, run by the same people who run the controlled media! Let every body know it 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 21:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh Gawd! I wish you would just calm down. This is not a conspiracy. I really do empathize with your frustration. I fully agree that the introduction needs work and that it implies that Palestinian identity is recent and therefore invalid. This was result of compromises struck with other editors who believe there is no such thing as Palestinian people. Perhaps you are right that it needs to be changed. But it can't be changed if all you do is alienate people who want to help you do that.
I too think the emphasis on the recentism of Palestinian identitiy without mentioning their long ties to the land in the introduction is misleading and unfair. But we need to gain consensus for a new version before placing it there unilaterally. Please, please, please do not continue ranting away on these talk pages and accusing people of things they are not doing. Let's try to calm down and find a way to fix the problems. Okay? Tiamut talk 21:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to change the second paragraph to read as follows (change marked in bold):
While the first widespread endonymic use of " Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [23] their attachment to and residency in the land dates back many centuries, and for some, millenia. The first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [24] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state. [23]
The reason for this change is that the introduction as written placed WP:UNDUE emphasis on the recentism of Palestinian national identity. All modern-day national identities are constructs. There is no need to unduly emphasize this in the introduction without balancing it with other POVs. By mentioning the fact that while Arabs in Palestine did not refer to themselves as Palestinians, they did reside in the land and were attached to it for centuries and in some cases millenia, I believe this problem can be solved.
Thoughts? Alternate suggestions? Thanks. Tiamut talk 22:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The introduction as ( while palestinians etc) is strange. you should start the article about the palestinians by defining them: Palestinians are the people who were living in palestine before they were deported (or ran away in majority ) from their homeland after the 1948 war.
So palestinians are the descendents of those people who left palestine in 1948. it is very simple concise and impossible to refute. people who have family relations in palestine there are many syrians and arabs who fit this and are not palestinians. many people immigrated from Palestine through the ages they are not palestinians in the strict word. Palestinians come from the word palestine ( a land area) meaning the people living in palestine. Palestine was named based on a sea people who resided briefly in Ashkelon area and then left by sea. However the word Palestine was first used officially by the greek to refer to the exact palestine area, they named it such because they reminescenting about palestinians ( sea people who were of greek origin -sea people are greek themsleves) that is why when the romans kicked the Greek they renamed the area Syria ( in remembering the assyrians a more closely related to romans ( being they are the same ancient trojans-romans came from troy according to homer and herodotus (kingdom of Lydia near by the assyrians) It is not essential that a nation should have the same name . Ie it is not the name that defines a people but other many things ( their claiming that, solidarity among themselves, folklore, residing in one place for a long time, establishing a governemnt ( palestinians did establish state states since the phoenicians and were considered a different separate governate during the Greek empire ( pan nationalities empire). For example native americans don't like to be called red indians, or they did not know they were being called red indians by others! but the word Red indian does not define who they are as a people, and if they refused to be called red indians they are still a people! got my drift. So emphasyzing on the name is falacious, and misleading and conspiratorious. The Palestinians were known to themselves as Holylanders ( maqdesites) . All the world called that area and its people Holy land and Holylanders, so where is the problem, if they decided to call themselves Palestine and Palestinians when they were planning to free themselves from the british between the two world wars. we should mention that palestinians call themselves holylanders and maqdisites. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 22:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Pu the difinition of palestinians at the top: the people who lived in palestine before its occupation by the british the sworn enemies historically of the palestinians ( Richard the Lion Heart killed 10000 palestinians in the third crusade) how about this for introduction. British occupation of palestine is illegal and was resisted by palestinians ( uprisings of 1920 and 1936), hence any people brought during british occupation are not considered palestinian ( 1917-1947) a thirty year period of History ( estimated at 6000 years of written history) Just difinition according to palestinian authority. A difinition according to enemies of palestine like israelites and british are not accepted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 23:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
As you can see tiamut you were doing bad job protecting the artcile from lies, as you can see from my recent new edits ( Herodotus separated palestine from the Phoenicians who Sidon was their capital according to Herodotus ! and he was talking about the coast line of the sea of the greek ( the Mediterranean) so where is Palestine of Herodotus between Phoenicia and Egypt? Let me think? could it be the same Palestine of our days? Eurika I found it, I just made a great cognetive feat since Herodotus (Not!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 05:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Secondly there were no philistines ( the sea people of aegean ) in 450 time of Herodotus! neither Herodotus talkes about syrian palestinians or palestina syrians. He clearly separated Palestine as a land mass opens to the sea south of the Phoenicians, the philistines only stayed briefly for 300 years. The mention of Pphilistines in Bible at the time of Abraham is a forgery as the Bible text critique contend, and I am not sure if they were encountered by Joshua. 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
And again, I agree with Tiamut that there is no reason to be so hesitant about the Palestinian nationality issue if the same doesnt apply to every other page discussing nationalities. Funkynusayri ( talk) 08:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing about consensus in wiki rules, just bring references ( two if strange claim) 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 08:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It is not about the borders of Palestine through history Its about the NAME of palestine through history. This is the contensios issue that took almost over everything from the introduction, the zionists or anti-palestinians are winning saying that Palestine as name only came with the British and was used rather by the Jewish illegal residents than Palestinian themselves, and you are trying misorably to make concensus with them about the existance of Palestinians just because of the name.
I have explained that the name does not matter, what matters is the characteritics of a nation not the name!
The Jews used a name for their state Israel, from the Bible and was used only on a small part of Palestine ( the northen kingdom of Israel which lasted less than a hundred years!)
Not to mention that the CURRENT Contemporary jews are NOT descendents from the Ancient Israelites ( neither of Israel or Judea kingdoms, go figure)
this is according to the undisputable DNA studies findings that were finalized to a final conclusion at the end of 2007 ( after making great numbers of Jews test for Aurosomal DNA which was the last straw for them to expose their lies and that they are but the descendents of the Khazars ( who lived in the Land of Gog ang Magog) hence they are the Gog and Magog predicted by Prophet Ezekiel 38-40 that they will take over the mountains of Israel ( the land of God not the people of God since the latter were finished according to God covenant that they broke) simply by impostering the name Israel. with just a name they got them a country and inheritance!, and as you know the palestinians had a parallel name the Maqdisties ( people of the Holy Land). Every body knows this land as the holy land not Israel!.
Borders of Palestine are unique to make any people living inside the borders a unique different nation. adding to that the many characteristics of a nation ( folklore most important, land with harsh borders ( Golan Hights, rigid South Lebanon, The Low land of The Dead Sea Desert( Seir desert) and the wirst deser of them all the south.
finally the sea to the west.
You can't find such formidable seclision like this.
I want to add the historical schools ( religious and others) but I can't remember the names, can you help?
this is a very imporatnt part. I know that the crusaders killed 20000 in the Aqsa mosque who were strangers coming just for learning so what was the name of that school, and other libraries names?
And why you deleted 1920 uprising ( just 2 years after the british invasion).Your writing about the 1936 sounds like an insurgency in which the natives got disappointed!? that was not true, since the resistance started right away. Qawiqji started his military attackes in about that time with others. Palestinians killed many British soldiers ( 100s in 1920 and 10000 in 1936, so the palestinians were fighting as a real resistance ( and the body count of both sides testify) and the British were not Mandate since the mandate came After the invasion!!!!!!!!! that after they won the war 1918 they as the victors and the strongest in the so called leage of nations arranged that so called mandate ( ie they got orders from the leage of nations after the fact they already invaded), they even assigned a crooked heretic ( Agha Khan ) who himself could not get a country for himself in the Islamic lands because he was so hated by muslims and he becomes the representive of the muslims! and even the head of the League!! and assign Britain!!! to rule the muslims, talk about his unique powers of his: he could not rule a chunk of muslim land even with the help of the British, but he can order Britain and mandate her on Palestine (the British being so gentile and table mannered and could not eat the prey before taking a symbolic permission from the PREY!! 75.72.88.121 ( talk) 14:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Gelvin 92
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).