This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Why is there no information in reference to the current Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza? Is there anything more contemporary and important than this Palestinian struggle going on right now? Land disputes? Escalation in Palestinian deaths? I can go on, seems strange not to have it in an article concerning Palestinians. (UTC)
abu_afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
Before 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, and Jordan had Annexed the West Bank- and there were no 'Palestinians'.. except Jews.
While everyone's caught up on Genetics....(which I can discuss as well)
Even the word is Revisionist.
Palestinian nationalism was nonexistant Before Israel came into existence.
If you said 'Palestinian' in 1900, 1920, 1940, or even 1960-- you were referring to a Jew!
This topic is supposed to be about the USAGE of the Term 'Palestinian' and it's evolution/history. Yet...
""Palestinians" [are an] Arab people no one heard of before 1967 before Israeli governments certified this piece of propaganda... As has been noted many times before, prior to 1948, that is before Jews had begun to call themselves Israelis, the ONLY persons known as "Palestinians" were Jews, with the Arabs much preferrring to identify themselves as part of the great Arab nation.
- David Basch
"...Palestine does not belong to the "Palestinians" and never did. They did not even call themselves Palestinians until the middle 1960s. Before that, the word "Palestinian" meant "Jewish," while the local Arabs called themselves simply "Arabs." The creation of the PLO by Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1964 was a brilliant ploy to distort the parameters of the dispute, largely for propaganda purposes. It was inconvenient to have a conflict between 20-odd Arab states with an area 530 times greater than Israel, a population more than 30 times greater than Israel's and enormously richer natural resources. Far better to invent a "Palestinian" nation that would be the eternal "underdog," - a nation consisting partly of Immigrants from Syria and other Arab countries who came to benefit from the rapidly growing economy Zionist Jews created..."
westerndefense.org
"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937
So before the creation of the State of Israel, who were the Palestinians?
Until 1950, the name of the Jerusalem Post was THE PALESTINE POST; the journal of the Zionist Organization of America was NEW PALESTINE; Bank Leumi was the ANGLO-PALESTINE BANK; the Israel Electric Company was the PALESTINE ELECTRIC COMPANY; there was the PALESTINE FOUNDATION FUND and the PALESTINE PHILHARMONIC. All these were Jewish organizations.
In America, Zionist youngsters sang "PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE", "PALESTINE SCOUT SONG" and "PALESTINE SPRING SONG" In general, the terms Palestine and Palestinian referred to the region of Palestine as it was. Thus "Palestinian Jew" and "Palestinian Arab" are straightforward expressions. "Palestine Post" and "Palestine Philharmonic" refer to these bodies as they existed in a place then known as Palestine. The adoption of a Palestinian identity by the Arabs of Palestine is a recent phenomenon. Until the establishment of the State of Israel, and for another decade or so, the term Palestinian applied almost Exclusively to the Jews. - Peacefaq
"....Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? ... The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination. . . ." According to Alami, ar indoctrination of the "myth" of nationality would create "identity" and "self-respect."8
However, Alami's proposal was confounded by the Realities: between 1948 and 1967, the Arab state of Jordan claimed annexation of the territory west of the Jordan River, the "West Bank" area of Palestine -- the same area that would later be forwarded by Arab "moderates" as a "mini-state" for the "Palestinians." Thus, that area was, between 1948 and 1967, called "Arab land," the peoples were Arabs, and yet the "myth" that Musa Alami prescribed-the cause of "Palestine" for the "Palestinians" -- remained unheralded, unadopted by the Arabs during two decades. According to Lord Caradon, "Every Arab assumed the Palestinians [refugees] would go back to Jordan."9
When "Palestine" was referred to by the Arabs, it was viewed in the context of the intrusion of a "Jewish state amidst what the Arabs considered their own exclusive environment or milieu, the 'Arab region.' "10 ..."
EretzYisroel.org
"....From the time the Arabians, along with their non-Arabian recruits, entered Palestine and Syria, they found and themselves added to what was "ethnologically a chaos of all the possible human combinations to which, when Palestine became a land of pilgrimage, a new admixture was added."1
Among the peoples who have been counted as "indigenous Palestinian Arabs" are Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudanese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, and Tartars.
John of Wurzburg lists for the middle era of the kingdom, Latins, Germans, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians,Egyptians, Copts, Maronites and natives from the Nile Delta. The list might be much extended, for it was the period of the great self-willed city-states in Europe, and Amalfi, Pisans, Genoese, Venetians, and Marseillais, who had quarters in all the bigger cities, owned villages, and had trading rights, would, in all probability, have submitted to any of the above designations, only under pressure. Besides all these, Norsemen, Danes, Frisians, Tartars, Jews, Arabs, Russians, Nubians, and Samaritans, can be safely added to the greatest human agglomeration drawn together in one small area of the globe."2
Greeks fled the Muslim rule in Greece, and landed in Palestine. By the mid-seventeenth century, the Greeks lived everywhere in the Holy Land--constituting about twenty percent of the population-and their authority dominated the villages.3
Between 1750 and 1766 Jaffa had been rebuilt, and had some five hundred houses. Turks, Arabs, Greeks and Armenians and a solitary Latin monk lived there, to attend to the wants of the thousands of pilgrims who had to be temporarily housed in the port before proceeding to Jerusalem.4
"In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported. 5
Another source, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911 edition (before the "more chauvinist Arab history" began to prevail with the encouragement of the British), finds the "population" of Palestine composed of so "widely differing" a group of "inhabitants" -- whose "ethnological affinities" create "early in the 20th century a list of no less than fifty languages" (see below) -- that "it is therefore no easy task to write concisely ... on the ethnology of Palestine." In addition to the "Assyrian, Persian and Roman" elements of ancient times, "the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages."
. . . There are very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece and Italy . . . Turkoman settlements ... a number of Persians and a fairly large Afghan colony . . . Motawila ... long settled immigrants from Persia ... tribes of Kurds ... German "Templar" colonies ... a Bosnian colony ... and the Circassian settlements placed in certain centres ... by the Turkish government in order to keep a restraint on the Bedouin ... a large Algerian element in the population ... still maintain(s) [while] the Sudanese have been reduced in numbers since the beginning of the 20th century.""
In the late eighteenth century, 3,000 Albanians recruited by Russians were settled in Acre. The Encyclopaedia Britannica finds "most interesting all the NON-Arab communities in the country . . . the Samaritan sect in Nablus (Shechem); a gradually disappearing body" once "settled by the Assyrians to occupy the land left waste by the captivity of the Kingdom of Israel."6
The disparate peoples recently assumed and purported to be "settled Arab indigenes, for a thousand years" were in fact a "heterogeneous" community 7 With No "Palestinian" identity, and according to an Official British historical analysis in 1920, No Arab identity either: "The people west of the Jordan are not Arabs, but only Arabic-speaking. The bulk of the population are fellahin.... In the Gaza district they are mostly of Egyptian origin; elsewhere they are of the most mixed race." 8
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/mixed.html
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Abu afak (
talk •
contribs)
00:38, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
end abu_afak/abu_afak2@Yahoo.com
My/abu afak In response to just above.
You are welcome to Rebut this "Zionist Propaganda", and debate me on it. SURELY you can take apart this "Blatant" stuff easily. To everyone reading this. Wiki staff and not.. My challenge will NOT be accepted as this "Zionist propaganda" is the truth. Further, it's my experience people who use the term he does, and I have wide internet debate experience, oft have a problem and/or emanate from a specific world region, where that term is used in broad form to describe virtually any information they don't like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.183.132 ( talk) 02:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
This article ought to elaborate on what dfferentiates Palestanian culture from Arabic culture.
What "Diffferences"? posted by abu afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
"..There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another Recent Invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough....""
- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist
end abu_afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
>> WRONG! Scandinavians got different languages yet common history and cultures up to the point they were seperated from eachother. The "palestinians" dont even have That. (Y.S) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.230.210.38 ( talk) 09:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Why are editors trying to introduce a lead that omits mention of Samaritans and Jews? [1] There is a documented Samaritan community of 350 people living in Nablus who carry Palestinian ID cards and identify as Palestinian and there are some Jews who identify as Palestinian as well, for example Uri Davis. Further, there are Armenians in the Old City of Jerusalem that identify as Palestinian and they are not Arab. All of this needs to be discussed before being pushed through. There seems to be a rescoping of the article via changes to the definition of Palestinian and renames of the page that must garner consensus before being rammed through. Tiamat 17:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Some Druze in Israel do identify as Palestinian. For example, the Arab citizens of Israel article notes that: In 2001, Said Nafa, who identifies as a Palestinian Druze and serves as the head of the Balad party's national council, founded the "Pact of Free Druze", an organization that aims "to stop the conscription of the Druze and claims the community is an inalienable part of the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian nation at large." [2] The exact number may be in dispute, but that there are "Palestinian Druze" is not in question. Ditto for Samaritans, Jews, and even Armenians and others. Tiamat 22:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
What number do minorities have to reach before they are notable enough for inclusion in the lead? And whose engaged in political grandstanding? Aren't politicians supposed to represent the identity, needs, and positions of their constituencies? Tiamat 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Because there are no definitive numbers that address that issue, I couldn't tell you. However, using common sense, knowing that there are some Druze who do identify as Palestinian (As per the source I provided you above) I can deduce that there there is a minority Druze population among Palestinians. Similarly, knowing that there are more than 300 Samaritans living in Nablus, I know that there is a Samaritan minority among Palestinians. The significance of these groups should not be restricted by their small numbers. Tiamat 00:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Considering there are only 700 Samaritans worldwide, roughly half of whom live in Nablus and the other half in Holon, I would argue that they deserve mention in the lead. i.e., roughly half of this existing minority population are Palestinians. This is notable. I brought you material that proves that an elected leader of the Druze community in Israel defines himself as Palestinian (he also represents a constitutency); that is notable. Finally, I would ask that you drop the dismissive tone and attitude and try to treat others with the respect you demand for yourself. Tiamat 10:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
It refers to Palestinian "resistence", misses no chance in its chronology pages to count "massacres" of palestinians, and from it's chronoloy of 1967 one would think there was no war and Israel spontaneously annexed territory. It doesn't even substitute militant for terrorist, it calls them "activists". When Palestinians die on Sept 28 of 1996 they are "matyred". And finally, it calls Palestine a country. It clearly has an agenda. If this source is not reliable as I assert I will remove all "facts" that use this as a reference in a day or two. Smaug 21:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Plenty of false information here on DNA information. No mention of the fact that overall Jews are far more associated with Haplogroup J2, common in the northern fertile cresent and Mediterranean basin, than J1, more associated with Arabs, including Palestinians, which you are trying to portray as the "authentic marker" of "Semitic speakers". Plus, the research on "CMH" is still inconclusive and hotly debated, despite the way you are trying to portray it. There is no credible reason to believe that CMH lies outside of the main Jewish distributions. Shoddy scholarship with a strong political motivation are profoundly evident here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 02:18, 16 July 2007 ( talk • contribs) 151.200.35.152.
Because I have noticed that there are some editors who are confused about the concept of Arab and the concept of Arabian. I would suggest you to read this [5]. It shows you how Arabs, and ancient Arabs classified themselves into three categories... Only one of them is the Ishmaelites, cousins of the Israelites. But the rest are really ancient Arabs with whom Ishmael whom were in Arabia even before the arrival of Ishmael. There is a good Arabic book about all this stuff, unfortunately I cannot find an English translation. Almaqdisi talk to me 05:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It now says there are "four different types" of Palestinians. The first definition applies to the term's use in the British Mandate period, whereas the second, third and fourth definitions are "Israeli Palestinians", "West Bank and Gaza Palestinians" and "Diaspora Palestinians". The terminology is confusing and the definition makes it same as though these different groups are mutually exclusive whereas they are all Palestinians, just in different temporal and geographic spaces. It has to be changed. Tiamat 00:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Really? Shall we go through them then, one by one? Here is the diff:
Palestinians, like most other Arabic-speakers, combine ancestries from those who have come to settle the region throughout history; though the precise mixture is a matter of debate, on which genetic evidence (see below) has begun to shed some light. The findings apparently confirm Ibn Khaldun's argument that most Arabic-speakers throughout the Arab world descend mainly from culturally assimilated non-Arabs who are indigenous to their own regions. [1]
Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
Kathleen Christison notes in her review of Kunstel and Albright's work that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [3]
Although various Arabian tribes inhabited Palestine since the 3rd millennium BC, [4], increasing conversions to Islam among the local population, together with the immigration of Arabs from Arabia and inland Syria, led to increased Arabization of the population in the Umayyad era.
According to Science, "most Palestinian archaeologists were quick to distance themselves from these ideas," viewing the issue of who was in Palestine first as constituting an ideological issue lying outside of the realm of archaeological study. [5]
Regarding Said's kissing up to Khalidi, this is an article about "Palestinian people", not Khalidi's book. Save the back-slapping for the article about the book. Removing a link to the Establishment of the State of Israel article makes no sense, your wording was worse, the Palestine Post changed its name in 1950 so it's not clear why you would change this to the less accurate "after the 1948 war"). The "without a clear definition" stuff seems to have been slipped in there. The Rosenthal material is 40 years old, and he was a specialist in Arabic literature and Islam, not history; I've already explained at length why we need modern scientific works on this, as the science keeps changing. The problem with POV-pushing this irrelevant Canaanite stuff has already been explained to you by many editors here - your continued attempts to write revisionist history that not even Palestinian historians support are perverse. The Lewis material is dubious, as you haven't quoted him exactly. Your original research regarding the Science article is clear - you are quoting one person and attributing his views to many. Your reversions of Tewfik on the DNA material have not been explained, other than a claim that he "badly misreads"; it. Jayjg (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Why would I do that Jayjg, when I have already outlined the changes I want to make here? Why can't you respond to each of them (they are numbered after all and you can say, "#1 is an issue we have already discussed, number #3 is fine, go ahead and add it ... etc., etc. (I should mention I missed one change in that edit, which is an introductory paragraph to the culture section that I restored after Beit Or deleted it, which you redeleted again without explanation.) Could you please work with me here? Tiamat 09:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiamat 13:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)The claim that Palestinians are direct descendants of the region's earliest inhabitants, the Canaanites, has been put forward by some authors. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
Kathleen Christison notes in her review of Kunstel and Albright's work that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [6]
Every source that puts forward the claim of Canaanite descent is a not a reliable to you which is hwy there is indeed no point in discussing this with you any further. You cannot decide that a source is unreliable without providing evidence to support your claim. The Christison source says they are historians. Do you have a source that says they are pseudo-historians? I didn't think so. The source stays. I've had enough of the automatic denials of sources by you and Jayjg simply because you don't like what they have to say. Tiamat 15:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. Glad to see you only deleted about 1,000 bytes of material here instead of 5,000 bytes as in your previous revert. Now we're getting somewhere.
I have a couple of questions for you about your edit. First the easy ones:
1) Why did you remove " national liberation movement". The PLO was one of a handful of national liberation movements to gain observer status. This is well-documented and relevant to the article.
2) Why did you restore Tewfik's edits to the DNA section. What makes his version more accurate than my own? I explained my edits above in response to your request to do so. Can you explain yours?
As for the ancestry section, we need to discuss that in detail once again once we finish these issues. You once again reverted all of my changes there, even removing a sentence sourced to Lewis regarding Arabian tribes.
But again, I appreciate you taking me up on my request. Please answer these two questions and we'll take it from there. Tiamat 16:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, did you get a chance to look at the DNA section? Tiamat 10:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Recalling also its resolution 3237 (XXIX) of 22 November 1974, by which it granted observer status to the Palestine Liberation Organization, Recalling further its resolution 43/160 A of 9 December 1988, adopted under the item entitled "Observer status of national liberation movements recognized by the Organization of African Unity and/or by the League of Arab States", in which it decided that the Palestine Liberation Organization was entitled to have its communications issued and circulated as official documents of the United Nations, Recalling its resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988, in which it acknowledged the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988 and decided that the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system ...
Questions for Jayjg:
1) Why would you put Kunstel and Albright at the beginning of this section if you claim that their opinion is not as valid as that of "real" historians?
As you can see from my version on the left of the diff placed above, I have put them at the end of this section and contextualized their argument. Your version gives them WP:UNDUE prominence. Further, you version uses Kathleen Christison's review of their book to make a generalized claim about how "most historians do not give credence to these claims." My version places her review after Kunstel and Albright's statement, properly attributing it the context in which it was produced.
2) Why are Ibn Khaldun's writings on Arab ancestry not relevant to this section?
Note that my version does not proffer his thesis as a fact. It refers to the genetics section and points out similarities in his thesis while consigning the determination of the debate to the realm of DNA studies (where it belongs, as per the Palestinian archaeologists statements and even Lewis himself. Genetic questions cannot be answered by historians or archaeologists.)
3) Why do you keep deleting this sentence opening:
Although various tribes from the Arabian peninsula had migrated into Palestine as early as the 3rd millennium BC, [7]
?
It is sourced to Bernard Lewis who you quote from extensively in this section. The reliability of the source, in other words, is not in question. So what's the problem?
I believe that covers the fundamental differences between the version you keep restoring and the one I do. Please answer the questions and we can take it from there. Tiamat 13:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In short Jayjg, I think your objections here are nitpicking. There isn't a solid argument that addresses why my version is unsuitable. Tiamat 10:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, if the view of Nadav and Jayjg is that Ibn Khaldun is not notable enough or credible enough a source for this claim, there are others. For example, in the Nebel et al. study cited in the DNA section, the article clearly states that:
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)."
I might point out that this is exactly what Ibn Khaldun says. But if you prefer that we use "modern historians", there is this quote. Is there any objection to using this source instead of Ibn Khaldun? Tiamat 11:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the section on demography from Palestine to this article. Logically the demography of a people should be discussed in the article on the people and not elswhere. I have made some minor changes to avoid duplications and to facilitate understanding. Benqish 07:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Shalom: it appears that the 'Palestinian people' discussed in this article may not be the same group of people that are discussed in the other article you mentioned. You also had few mistakes and interruptions in the flow of original content. Sory I didn't see this post of yours here before. 65.188.174.171 15:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Where's the big part talking properly on Palestinian History? Oh wait, you don't have any.
The notion that the Palestinians are a "race" or "ethnicity" of people is widely disputed. The evidence suggests that Palestinians are a nationality at best. To define Palestinians as a ethnicity (and let's be honest, "Palestinian people" really means "people who are ethnically Palestinian") is to at once define "people" too narrowly and too broadly. the people that lived in the British Mandate of Palestine and their decendents collectively as "Palestinian people" also describe the people include Jewish citizens of Mandatory Palestine under that umbrella? This would include the entire Yishuv, Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi. According to this view, Menachem Begin is as much a member of the "Palestinian people" as Yaser Arafat. I would suggest that this too broadly defines what is actually being writen about. Would those that would describe the people that lived in the British Mandate of Palestine and their decendents collectively as "Palestinian people" also describe the people that lived in the British Mandate of Mesopotamia and their decendents collectively as "Mesopotamian people?" If not, then "Palestinian people" too narrowly defines what is actually being descibed. -- GHcool 21:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Again what difference does it make if you understand it or not. It's enough that others who do understand it (scholars and laymen) think that it's controversial; that's all that counts. Wikipedia shouldn't reflect your way of thinking more then mine and others. Itzse 23:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I gave you the option of clarifying your intentions. It's no secret that people have agenda's and beliefs. Mine, I spelled out on my user page, stating clearly, that although I have a stong point of view, I believe Wikipedia should represent everybodies. So it is only human to speculate what other people's intentions are.
Now that you have given your consent to renaming it back to "Palestinians", we can turn over another leaf. Be a gentlewoman and make the change. Itzse 00:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
people: "the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like: the people of Australia; the Jewish people."
[Outdent] The banana comparison is extremely weak to the point of being satirical. Maybe that was how it was meant, but I took it that you made the comparison seriously. We (meaning G-Dett and myself) agreed above that "Palestinian" was the best title for this article. To answer G-Dett's question, the group of people that the article talks about is a nationality, a more precise word for what G-Dett describes as "a large group of individuals ... closely bound together culturally, historically, and [often but not necessarily] politically." The term "people" is much more broad and can include virtually anything from ancient civilizations ( Maya peoples) to common ancestry ( Germanic peoples) to ethnic groups ( Romani people) to skin color ( White people) and everything in between. Calling Palestinians a people is misleading at best and anthropoligcally bogus at worst. -- GHcool 05:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the current name Palestinian people is a good article name and should be retained on this article. The controversies over this and similar articles aren't likely to be resolved soon, but there is widespread usage of the term Palestinian people and this seems a remarkably good article on that topic, all things considered. Andrewa 06:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I also objected to the move. But if I'm now the only one (it might be wise to check that others haven't been similarly ignored), that shouldn't be a problem. As this has been listed on WP:RM, it will get admin attention in due course. Andrewa 12:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I object to the move. I know why this guy wants it moved, he is Jewish. Never have I pet anti Israeli statements on Wikipedia as we have to be neutral in here. But I see he doesn't think of it like that.` So I've come here to object to it. All users opposing to Palestinian people are Jewish, this is ridicules! The Honorable Kermanshahi 21:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of this move, why hasn't it happened yet? -- GHcool 06:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
i wonder why it was deemed " no consensus to move" when, according to my count, 6 editors supported the move, 2 against, 1 neutral, and 1 suggesting we move the ethnicity box (similar to support move).
see: 'Consensus building'. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a bad faith deletion of a lot of people's hard work. It is inexcusable. I'm re-adding the most recent debate back here ... -- GHcool 17:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Most people seem to agree that "Palestinians" is the better title and "Palestinian people" is a misleading title. -- GHcool 21:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
-- Eternalsleeper 06:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As a lot of the discussion was moved around and some major portions were deleted, some editor’s positions are missing. Therefore in order to get a clear and fair picture I'll compile them. Itzse 21:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and Tiamut made their vote pretty clear in this discussion - they opposed. As G-Dett wrote below "There was a moment early on when I appeared to be the only holdout, and I was prepared to accept Palestinians to get us out of the deadlock" and that's why when you ganged up on them they slightly gave-in - BUT THEY NEVER VOTED YES FOR THE MOVE - SO THEY NEVER CHANGED THEIR VOTE. On top of it you are twisting their comments. 70.48.106.42 00:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
70.48.106.42 Andrewa, first sign your comment so we'll know who is saying what. They can talk for themselves; they don't need you to speak for them. I am not twisting anything; I didn't say that they changed their vote; I said they changed their position; which they did. Why they changed it, is also clear as they wanted to punish me so they are punishing Wikipedia, Nadav, GHCool and everybody else. Isn't it interesting that Wikipedia is at the mercy of the goodwill of editors not substance? If you dare say what you think you get punished along with everybody else. What a system?
Itzse
23:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiamat 20:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Over the course of the discussion many points were raised as to why "Palestinian people" is preferable. Yes people's position became entrenched by the offensive ideology underlying some people's advocacy for the move of the page to Palestinians, but that was an extenuating circumstances, not a primary one. While you pointed out that "Palestinians" gets 10 times as many hits as "Palestinian people" you did not mention that "Palestinian people" get over 1 million hits. The discussion also pointed out that the PLO uses the term "Palestinian people" and as their sole legitimate representative before the international community, that's a solid reason to name the article as such. Finally, as I pointed out in numerous posts, "Palestinian people" clearly defines the subject of the article. As the term "Palestinians" has referred to different people at different times, the specificity of "Palestinian people" and the formation of this collectivity makes it preferable, particularly since people often get confused as to who this article should and not cover in detail.
I think all this "discussing" doesn’t belong here; mine included. This paragraph is labeled "Consensus building" where you agree or disagree, state your case and that’s it. The debate in one form or another is all over on this talk page so we’ll need to append any discussion or questions to the other paragraphs of this sort.
I’ll try to make a little sense of what has been discussed. If a group of people in Baltimore, Maryland decide one day to become a people; that doesn’t automatically turn them into a people, just because they say so. On the other hand if the Aztec tribe decides one day to exercise their people hood and demand self determination, that would be a serious claim since it is an established fact that the Aztecs are a "people". The Baltimoreans can scream until they are blue in their face that they don’t want to be called Baltimoreans and nobody will even listen, unlike black people in America who are justified in not wanting to be called Negroes since its short form has become a racial slur.
Tiamut asks why is "Palestinians" preferable over "Palestinian people"? The answer is, that on the fundamental question: Do the Arabs who lived in Palestine constitute a people? Tiamut and Arafat (born in Cairo) say yes; Itzse, Golda Meir, my grandfather and even my neighbor say NO. Why should Tiamut’s POV trounce my POV? The burden of proof should be on those who have never been a people to prove that are indeed a people. So even if we’ll use up another thousand talk pages, still I’ll stick to my POV and Tiamut will stick to hers and nobody will be smarter then before. That aside, it has been pointed out that even if the impossible should happen and Tiamut should SOMEHOW be proven right; the people in question refer to themselves as "Palestinians"; right or wrong that’s a fact. So a "factual" fact should be preferable to a "debatable" fact.
G-Dett is correct that Tiamut is exactly on point that using "people" would have "word implications". So to avoid those implications WP should use "Palestinians". G-Dett is also correct that the Palestinian Arabs don’t like to be called as such "for the simple reason that Palestinians do not use that term for themselves and don’t much like it being used about them; they see it as a political attempt to deny their nationality." I would like to remind G-Dett that NOT using "Palestinian Arab" is a political attempt to deny the Jews their nationality, and to convince people that a questionable fact (people) is a factual fact.
So here you have it for anybody interested in the truth. "Palestinian Arabs", although it's a FACT, the Palestinian Arabs don’t want it used, lest you'll think that there were also Palestinian Jews. "Palestinian people", which is at best a DEBATABLE fact, the Palestinian Arabs DO want it used so you'll become convinced that there is a Palestinian people. So in a goodwill gesture, Wikipedia will let the Palestinian Arabs be called the way they want to call themselves, which is "Palestinians" which still to a lesser degree wrongly insinuates that the Arabs are the Palestinians. IMO any pushing for the term "Palestinian people" has a clear agenda. Itzse 21:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no preference on PP vs Ps, a rose by any other name ..., although if "Palestinian Arab" is objectionable to some, I think we should listen to them; I don't really follow how nonusage of "PAs" denies Jews their nationality. But is it out of place to note that Israel has had no objection to and has itself used the phrase "Palestinian people" in legal documents for a long time? - since the Camp David Accords - and it also appears in the Letters of Mutual Recognition. Begin objected to "Palestinian People" at the last minute, but what he wanted and got was merely the second word uncapitalized (see R Ben Cramer's How Israel Lost). Considering Wikipedia's capitalization conventions, this seems meaningless for us. By the way, Mencken used to call himself and his fellows inhabitants "Baltimorons" - I thought G-dett might like that (and is the real reason I made this comment). John Z 08:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
[OUTDENT] Firstly, ease in finding the page clearly isn't a factor in the debate to move the page. Secondly, "Palestinians" is a proper plural noun that clearly refers to the group of people that identify with the Palestinian nationalism, whereas "Palestinian" could either be a proper singular noun or an adjective. Nobody suggests changing the article to "Palestinian" (singular), which could, in Tiamut's pathetic argument, "be used as an adjective for everything." There can be no confusion about what is meant by the article title "Palestinians" (plural). Thirdly, nobody denies that the Palestinians are a collective nationality. All we are saying is that the Palestinians are not an ethnic/racial "people," and that the article title "Palestinian people" unjustly implies that they are. Rashid Khalidi, James L. Gelvin, and several other historians in the "Origins of Palestinian identity" section all support this historical fact. It is time that the article title also reflected the same reality. -- GHcool 18:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but I do not feel my example supports that point. Is there an article for "Americans"? No. so then there is no such usage of that term. My point was only that "American people" is a commonly-used phrase, and refers only to political affilitation, and not to any ethnicity at all. I realize it is not a major point, but I do feel it is of at least some relevance. -- Steve, Sm8900 17:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is for comments regarding the page move. Opinions on the Palestinians do not belong here. This is section of the talk page should only be about the requested move and Wikipedia policy in compliance with
Wikipedia:Requested moves. --
GHcool
21:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 11:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm done with this issue. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that User:Stemonitis read the wrong debate. It might take longer than most of Wikipedia hoped, but the brilliance of Wikipedia is that it can correct its own mistakes and through guidelines. -- GHcool 17:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Stemonitis, can you please be specific and explain what kind of consensus you were looking for? Itzse 18:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hypothetical editor: but don't you see how unfair that is? and don't you see how that violates the principles here?
Sorry, but that is how consensus is defined according to Wikpedia precendents. -- Steve, Sm8900 13:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
it is getting a bit hard to tell where people stand on this issue topic in general. I would like to suggest that everyone please go to the "Poll" section (which I renamed), and post your response to the poll there, if you have not already done so, that way, we can get an accurate sense and an accurate count of whether people here agree or not. Again, as you may realize, I think we should use that section for poll responses only. if you want to make comments or discussions, please do so in another section. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 18:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Itzse, please stop placing G-Dett's comment in the poll section. Editors should decide for themselves whether they want to continue participating in this process or not. They should also select for themselves how they want to phrase their vote (rather than having you decide which of their comments is indeed a vote). Please try to understand that there is an issue of process here as well. Tiamat 19:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, if the Jew article was at Jewish people, I'd be working pretty hard to get it moved to "Jew", because that kind of wordy nonsense helps no-one. It's sad to see yet another example of people using ideology and personal animus as a reason to do what's worse for Wikipedia, not better. Jayjg (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody mentioned that an admin "closed" this argument. I don't remember that ever happening. Could someone show me where it happened? The most I remember is that an admin said that there was not currently a consensus, which is not the same as closing an entire argument. Rather, it is encouragement for more argument until a consensus is found. -- GHcool 22:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Tewfik, would you care to join me in discussing the DNA section? This diff: [14] in particular. I spent hours reading the articles there to come up with a version that accurately and faithfully represented the material there to resolve an edit war with Jayjg over the issue and thought that the matter had been resolved. I find that your version is a little vague and selective in its presentation of the material. For example, you write: "The haplogroup, associated with marker M267, is a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period." This is true, but only partially. It is a marker of Arab expansion in the early medieval period when it is found in North Africa. Not Palestine. It originated in the Levant area. So your version tends to imply that its presence among Palestinians is derived from Arab dispersal of the haplogroup rather than the opposite which is that the Arabs dispersed it among others. Is there anything in particular that offends with about my version? Thanks. Tiamat
By the way, could you explain why you also restored the old version of the ancestry section in the section devoted to that discussion above? Thanks. Tiamat 19:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
"Bernard Lewis writes that, "In terms of scholarship, as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs,"[67] and that, "The rewriting of the past is usually undertaken to achieve specific political aims... in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews."[67]"
Huh? Claiming that modern Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites has nothing to do with whether the Canaanites were Arabs or not (they of course weren't), so that part is irrelevant to the article and should be removed. Funkynusayri 11:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't think of a single reason why it should be left in, so I'll remove it in some time if no one has a good argument for keeping it. Funkynusayri 12:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Those who are removing material from the article that is sourced, are asked to explain their edits here before or after doing so. These edits: [15], [16], [17], [18] remove material without explaining why. The deletion of sourced material without explanation is considered vandalism. Please engage in discussion. Thank you. Tiamat 12:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi there Armon. In this edit [19], you reverted everything I have just restored and new information I had added. I agree with the note you left in your edit summary about how Nakba Day should not be wikilinked in place of 1948 Palestinian exodus (if you notice, I added it alongside the exodus link in the culture section. I think its kind of relevant. I didn;t notice however that it was already there, so I will take it out). I notice that you reverted out of existence some 6,000 bytes of sourced material unrelated to that issue. Would you care to explain your edit? Thank you. Tiamat 15:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tewfik. In this edit [20], you deleted about 6,200 bytes of sourced material. Would you care to explain your edit summary and its relationship to the material you deleted? Thank you. Tiamat 16:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Hi Jayjg. In this edit [21] you deleted about 6,200 bytes of sourced material. Would you care to discuss? as per your edit summary? If this has to do with this ancestry section, could you respond in that section to my comments there? and refrain from combining issues by isolating the material in that section for restoration or removal as such should be the case? Thanks. Tiamat 16:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Now to respond to Tewfik and Jayjg. Anyone who seriously reviews the edits on this page will see that your descriptions are unfair and inaccurate. I consider your editing style here to be disruptive. I have constantly taken your objections into account, have attempted to engage in substantive discussion only to stonewalled and reverted. I have found better and better sources, more and more experts, only to have you delete them or disqualify them for various reasons. I think we need yet another RfC on this matter. Tiamat 16:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, your revert deleted over 6,000 bytes of material. That includes the four edits above [22], [23], [24], [25] that I had restored, while posting that section to ask people to explain their deletions. It also includes new edits that have nothing to do with the stuff we discussed. I have asked you time and time again to be selective in your editing. To try to isolate specific problems. Instead, you have used every opportunity to smear my editing and research skills. Your descriptions are completely unfair and uncivil and your actions are doing nothing to build consensus. Please focus. Tiamat 16:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This is the diff where Jayjg deletes the material in question [26], (which Armon and Tewfik also deleted before him), let's take a look at some of what has been removed:
1) In his 1997 book, Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness, Rashid Khalidi [8] states that the archaeological strata that denote the history of Palestine - encompassing the biblical, Roman, Byzantine, Umayyad, Fatimid, Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman periods - form part of the identity of the modern-day Palestinian people, as they have come to understand it over the last century.<ref name=Khalidip18>{{cite book|title=Palestinian Identity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness|publisher=[[Columbia University Press]]|year=1997|page=18|isbn=0231105142}}</ref>
2)<ref name=WKhalidi>{{cite book|title=Before Their Diaspora|author=Walid Khalidi|publisher=Institute for Palestine Studies, Washington D.C.|year=1984|page=32}} Walid Khalidi echoes this view stating that Palestinians in Ottoman times were "[a]cutely aware of the distinctiveness of Palestinian history..." and that "[a]lthough proud of their Arab heritage and ancestry, the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial, including the ancient Hebrews and the Canaanites before them.</ref>
3) In 1922, the British authorities over Mandate Palestine proposed a draft constitution which would have granted the Palestinian Arabs representation in a Legislative Council. The Palestine Arab delegation rejected the proposal noting that "the People of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration [Balfour] as a basis for discussion" and that the relegation of Palestine to a British "colony of the lowest order" was unacceptable.<ref>{{cite web|title=Correspondence with the Palestine Arab Delegation and the Zionist Organization|publisher=United Nations (original from ''His Majesty's Stationery Office'')|date=21 February 1922|accessdate=08.01.2007|url=http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0145a8233e14d2b585256cbf005af141/48a7e5584ee1403485256cd8006c3fbe!OpenDocument]}}</ref>
4) For example, Said Nafa, a self-identified "Palestinian Druze" serves as the head of the Balad party's national council and founded the "Pact of Free Druze" in 2001, an organization that aims "to stop the conscription of the Druze and claims the community is an inalienable part of the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian nation at large."<ref>{{cite web|title=Balad's MK-to-be: 'Anti-Israelization' Conscientious Objector|author=Yoav Stern & Jack Khoury|publisher=[[Haaretz]]|date=2 May 2007|accessdate=07.29.2007|url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/854636.html}}</ref>
5) {{main|Palestinian literature}}
6) R.A. Stewart Macalister, in his work ''The Excavation of Gezer'' (1912), notes that {{cquote|... the division into periods [of Palestinian pottery] is to some extent a necessary evil, in that it suggests a misleading idea of discontinuity - as though the periods were so many water-tight compartments with fixed partitions between them. In point of fact, each period shades almost imperceptibly into the next.<ref name=Macalister131>{{cite book|title=The Excavation of Gezer: 1902 - 1905 and 1907 - 1909|author=R.A. Stewart Macalister|publisher=John Murray, Albemarle Street West, London|year=1912|url=http://www.case.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/excavation_of_gezer_v2/title.pdf|page=131}}</ref>}}
7) Although various tribes from the Arabian peninsula had migrated into Palestine as early as the 3rd millennium BC,<ref name="Lewis2002p17">{cite book|title=''The Arabs in History''|author=Bernard Lewis|year=2002|publisher=Oxford University Press, USA, 6th ed.|page=17}}</ref>
8) "Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan..." Interestingly this is from Kunstel and Albright, who are still used in the version being restored but just this sentence is being deleted.
Is this unreliably sourced material and original research? No. Are any of the editors here willing to act in good faith? That's a question that they will have to answer. Tiamat 17:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
If you'd like comments on above items, here are mine. Let me know if this is useful or you'd rather I stay out.
Items 1 and 2) Seems plausible, maybe missing quote mark. I guess one question would be how well each Khalidi has done the necessary homework in backing up the claims about Palestinian identity formation. However, item (1) is also a bit confusing, seems like it might be a Foucaultian discourse/identity analysis that may need a fair amount of unpacking for a mere encyclopedia entry. I see that it leads off a section, which I think is confusing. Better to start with a general statement about how the origins of Palestinian identity are contested, both because identity formation itself is an arena of scholarly dispute and because of the perceived political stakes. Then roughly sketch two (or more) opposing views. Then start with one or the other view. (Side point -- The text has a Khalidi quote set up the other side, so as to refute it, which is a bit tendentious, esp since it doesn't identify who he is arguing against.)
3) Interesting info but worded somewhat POV, i.e., odd how terms "relegation" and "unacceptable" are dropped. What's the full original quote?
4) Druze. I suppose this statement needs to be properly contextualized as a minority viewpoint among Druze. If necessary, it could be added to footnote.
7) 8) Does Lewis call it Palestine for that era? (3000 BCE) Or is the writing pushing a particular viewpoint here regarding what gets to be called Palestine/ian?
Don't see the problem with #8. Later: Ok, I see that the Canaanite issue has been debated above. In current version, the quote has been reinserted near top of Ancestry section. But it would be better to put it near the paragraph where the Canaanite issue is raised, and the mainstream and dissenting positions are discussed.
Thanks, good luck to all working on such controversial issues! HG | Talk 21:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
GHcool, you've added this twice now :
"Khalidi refutes the claim that the Palestinians are an ancient people as a national myth created by " Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others ... in the mid- or late 1960s." [9]"
The quote from R. Khalidi on page 149 of his book reads:
...there is mainstream secular Palestinian nationalism, grouped together under the umbrella of the PLO and represented for the past three decades by a variety of constituent organizations including Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others. These group, which have probably represented the views of a majority of Palestinians since some time in the mid- or -late 1960s, emerge from a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots. As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view go further than this, and anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries, and even millenia, a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.
As you can see, Khalidi is talking about Palestinian nationalism or a nationalist consciousness and identity as not having ancient roots, and not the Palestinians themselves. Like other societies under colonial or imperial rule, Palestinian nationalism and a unique Palestinian identity emerged only in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This does not mean that the people who now call themselves Palestinian were not there earlier or do not have ancient origins. Your formulation distorts the meaning of Khalidi's text. Tiamat 00:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
(editconflict):Though it really should be up to you to make sure your additions properly represent the sources cited after you have been alerted to it by another editor who places a notice here with the specific item so as to get your attention and your reply, I went ahead and reformulated the addition, per the source and placed it another part of that section, where it flows better (being about the PLO and being largely chronological in organization there.) I hope it meets with your satisfaction. Tiamat 01:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's try to state the points of disagreement between Khalidi and Gelvin. It sounds like they both agree that Palestinian national identity originated in the modern period, with mildy different dates (Khalidi dating it to the late 19th C. and Gelvin to the early/mid 20th C.). They differ mainly on the cause, Khalidi relying more on the diffusion of nationalist discourse and Gelvin on a reaction formation to Zionism. After Gelvin, "The idea of a unique Palestinian state..." and following paragraphs seem to argue about the extent to which Palestinian identity has developed in contradistinction to Arab identity. (The evidence is given chronologically, but the article doesn't explain the point it's trying to make.) Towards the end of the section, the topic shifts a bit to how identity has been contested since 1948. Frankly, the writing is a bit evidence-heavy and doesn't tell the reader what to glean from section. I suppose that's a byproduct of POV disputes, so o.k. HG | Talk 01:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Made a series of small edits to help readers follow the points in this section. Sorry for so many edits, but given the tension here, thought it would be better to disaggregate each move w/edit summary explanations. I tried not to change any information or weigh in on your content disputes. However, I wasn't quite sure how to handle the following two blocks of text:
The PLO was recognized as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by the Arab states in 1974 and was granted observer status as a national liberation movement by the United Nations that same year.[1][17] Israel rejected the resolution, calling it "shameful".[18] In a speech to the Knesset, Deputy Premier and Foreign Minister Allon outlined the government's view that : "No one can expect us to recognize the terrorist organization called the PLO as representing the Palestinians - because it does not. No one can expect us to negotiate with the heads of terror-gangs, who through their ideology and actions, endeavour to liquidate the State of Israel."[18]
In 1977, the United Nations General Assembly created the "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People", an annual observance on November 29.[20]
How do these paragraphs speak to the topic of how Palestinian identity originated/developed? Forgive me if I'm being dense. I'm not disputing the content. Maybe somebody could add sentence(s) to tell the reader what to infer from this evidence about Palestinian identity? If not, maybe these need to be omitted or moved to History of Palestine? Thanks. HG | Talk 02:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the paragraph after the Gelvin quote, Tiamut said in her edit summary: "it shouldn't say supporting Gelvin's view. The evidence is from Khalidi's book - and the nationalism isn't "tied to" Zionism, it's co-present with." Ok, fair enough. Gelvin could take this data as supporting evidence (Khalidi as our source is irrelevant) whereas Khalidi could say that the nationalism was already well underway. Do we want to explain to our readers about the dual interpretation of 1900-1920 data? Nah, let's just say that, with either interpretation, Palestinian national identity was apparent at that time period. Ok? HG | Talk 03:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
What do folks think of adding subheadings to the Origins section? How about The emergence of Palestinian national identity Such as The relevance of modern nationalism and Zionism to Palestinian identity then Between Arab and Palestinian identities (1900 - 1967) then Recent developments in Palestinian identity (1967 - present). Also, am I right that this section should focus on identity formation, with political history as secondary? If so, then political history (whichever viewpoint) should be omitted if it doesn't serve as grounds/evidence about identity, right? Thanks.
HG |
Talk
12:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sub-headings sound like a good idea and the ones you have proposed are a great start. I should also mention that I went through the article, added things that were deleted that are reliably sourced and cited. I also removed one bit of prose by you that I felt didn't really add anything to the section. Good work though on making it flow better and improving the clarity to the reader. I generally agree with you that material in that section should focus around identity. However, I think the PLO information is important, as well as Israel's rejection of their recognition. It speaks directly to the issue of Palestinian identity since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people. I guess that what I'm saying is that political representation is related to identity, particularly in this case since these bodies define Palestinian identity for a largely diaspora people. Tiamat 12:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, want to ask about the reasons for some of your changes in the paragraph about Khalidi. You deleted the suggested opening: "Historians disagree about the timing and causes of Palestinian national identity." You also revised so that he is arguing about "the modern national identity." So, I gather you do not want to distinguish between a Palestinian "national identity" and any other kind of identity. Is that right? If so, do you think that Khalidi himself agrees with you? Or are you disputing with Khalidi as you describe his views?
HG |
Talk
13:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Next item. Jayjg restored this as a lead sentence (bold added): "The Israeli capture of the Gaza Strip and West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War prompted existing but fractured Palestinian political and militant groups to give up any remaining hope they had placed in pan-Arabism and to rally around the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), (which was founded in 1964), to organize efforts to establish an independent Palestinian state." Two reactions. First, in context, the point of this sentence is in bold, that the Arabism discussed previously was now given up. Therefore, I would break this sentence so it ends nicely with this point. Plus, the next clause actually is a contrast -- what did they do without pan-Arabism -- which is why I would begin it with "Instead, they rallied...." I don't think this changes the meaning, only the style. Ok, Jayjg? Second, I personally feel that a simpler lead-in would help some readers. Why? Because the point of the whole paragraph is that pan-Arabism gave way to identifying with or self-naming via Palestinian nationalism. Does that make sense, even if the wordsmithing isn't there yet? HG | Talk 15:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This entire article, specifically the section entitled: DNA Clues is in need of serious copyediting. Anyone care to take a crack at it? Notecardforfree 03:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I've cleaned it up. Jayjg (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Really? I think you should look at it again. Here is the diff that compares your latest edits to the DNA section with the edit Tewfik made a while ago: [28]. Here is the diff where you make this wholesale reversion of the DNA section (and the ancestry section) [29]. What did you keep? A set of brackets and a fix to the spacing? Tiamat 14:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we get back on task. How might we improve this section. (1) I'd again suggest an opening somehow indicates that main points to be covered in this section. Do you agree? (2) Whether or not you agree about the lead, please say what you believe to be the main points (e.g., three pts) and the order they should be made. You don't have to express the points perfectly, though it helps even here if it sounds neutral. Ok? HG | Talk 15:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Here' my proposal for a draft copy to work on. There are footnotes in here that are text as well, so take a look at them when you go to edit the page. Comments and sugestions on what to add or remove are welcome:
Studies in the field of genetics and genetic genealogy make comparisons with the historical record as it regards the populations under study, contributing to scholarship on human ancestral origins.
Results of a DNA haplotype study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim were reported by Science Now to match historical accounts that "some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times." [10] [11]
Other haplotype studies have explored the prevalence of specific
inherited genetic differences among populations allowing for the relatedness of these populations to be determined and their ancestry to be traced back through
population genetics. These also suggest that, at least paternally, most of the various
Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians — and in some cases other
Levantines — are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians to the original Arabs of Arabia or [European] Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
More recent studies focusing on haplogroup types have concluded that "Arab and other Semitic populations usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J". [16] [17]
Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) (previously known as J-M267 and Eu10) is one of two main sub-clades of the wider Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) group, thought to be the haplogroup of Semitic-speaking peoples in the Middle East. [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Haplogroup J2-M127 is thought to be a genetic marker of the Phoenicians, the term used to refer to Canaanites after 1200 BCE. [30]
Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins exhibit the highest rates of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (Semino et al., 2004, pp 1029) (55.2% and 65.6% respectively),and the highest frequency of the J1 sub-clade (38.4% and 62.5% respectively) among all groups tested. [23]
The J1 (or J1-M267) sub-clade is more common throughout the Levant itself, including Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon with decreasing frequencies northward to Turkey and the Caucasus, while J2-M172 (its sister clade) is more abundant in adjacent southern areas such as Somalia, Egypt, and Oman. [24] Frequency decreases with distance from the Levant in all directions, reinforcing this region as the most probable origin of its dispersions (Semino et al. 1996; Rosser et al. 2000; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). [24]
According to Semino et al. (2004), J-M267 (i.e. J1) was brought to Northeast Africa and Europe from the Middle East in late Neolithic times; whereas its presence in the southern part of the Middle East and in Northwest Africa was brought by a second wave, most likely Arabs who mainly from the 7th century A.D. onward expanded into northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002). [23](See also J1 Haplogroup frequencies: [31]) Tiamat 16:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Tiamut: I gave my ideas for the 3 points for this section above. It was deleted accidentally, please look and respond to it. Maybe it will be helpful. HG | Talk 17:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sounds like you'd still like feedback. First, purely as a matter of style, I cringe at reading sentences here about haplothingies, subclades, and JM747s. Let's imagine I'm a smart US high school or college student, but not in the sciences. You're reading the article and suddenly you are hit with sentences that began as above, some with completely unfamiliar (grammatical) subjects and objects. Do I have to shift from reading an encyclopedia to reading a scientific journal? You need to tell the reader what you are explaining, bring it down to terms for an audience who groks the rest of the article, and don't make me draw the inferences... tell me clearly at the outset and afterwards what key points I've learned. Second, you are writing partly for a skeptical audience. So you need to persuade them that the evidence backs up the claims. Draw the reader in -- explain how the evidence works and then how it adds up to adds up to genetic-genealogy findings. Ok. Third. Now comes the tricky part, you want to let the scientists interpret their data within a historiographical context. Your readers are going to be even MORE skeptical. Why should geneticists making historical claims? Don't skip this step! Address the doubt, make some concession or explanation to assuage the doubt about the author's standing. With you and Jayjg bickering, I don't know that either of you have the frame of mind for this step. Maybe qualify it strongly: "Interpreting their genetics analysis, some scientists have gone so far as to claim XYZ and ZYX. These historical claims have been picked up by the popular media and some pro-Palestinian circles. However, the jury is still out on whether such claims will resonate among historical scholars." Of course, this shouldn't be about personalities. But if you keep pushing the third step, and Jayjg keeps pushing back, you'll sabotage productive work on the whole section. HG | Talk 18:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree entirely with HG on this point, as providing straight technical discussion will be unhelpful for the majority of readers. That said, we have to be careful in how we vulgarise the text so that we are still only representing the science without inserting our own biases. On that note, my objection is the same as before, that a general discussion of topics like J is replacing specific discussion of its relevance to Palestinians. Tewfik Talk 20:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Pottery found in Palestine is not the same thing as Palestinian pottery. It would be pure revisionism to try to claim, for example, that pottery produced by Canaanites in 12th century BCE was "Palestinian pottery", in the modern sense of Palestinian. Please make sure that material is relevant to this specific article, which is Palestinian people, not ancient Palestine. Jayjg (talk) 13:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The source says "Palestinian pottery". It's not OR to term it as such if that's what the source says. I've quoted the relevant section at the main page for that article. See Talk:Palestinian pottery. Please stop trying to change sources to read as you would like them to read, rather than as they actually do. Tiamat 13:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The source says on page 75:
Modern Palestinian pots, bowls, jars, jugs, and cups are similar in shape to their ancient equivalents and show how persistently the potter's craft clung to tradition through the centuries. Fabric and decoration also recall ancient methods; the clay is of much the same composition and is shaped, smoothed, and baked in the same way..."
And on and on. Needler uses "Palestinian pottery" to refer to modern pottery produced by Palestinians and ancient pottery produced at other times in the region. This is not ahistorical revisionism. The text is dated to 1949. Needler is the Deputy Keeper of the Near Eastern Department at the Royal Ontario Museum of Archaeology and the book is entitled: "Palestine: Ancient and Modern". Please explain why I should ignore what a reliable source says and go with you WP:OR opinion. Tiamat 14:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The section currently reads:
Modern pots, bowls, jugs and cups produced by Palestinians, particularly those produced prior to the 1940s, are similar in shape, fabric and decoration to their ancient equivalents.[57] Cooking pots, jugs, mugs and plates that are still hand-made and fired in open, charcoal-fuelled kilns as in ancient times in historic villages like al-Jib (Gibeon), Beitin (Bethel) and Senjel.[58]
Notice anything wrong there? Like bad grammar for one.
My version read:
Palestinian pottery shows a remarkable continuity throughout the ages. Modern Palestinian pots, bowls, jugs and cups, particularly those produced prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, are similar in shape, fabric and decoration to their ancient equivalents.[57] R.A. Stewart Macalister, in his work The Excavation of Gezer (1912), notes that
“ ... the division into periods [of Palestinian pottery] is to some extent a necessary evil, in that it suggests a misleading idea of discontinuity - as though the periods were so many water-tight compartments with fixed partitions between them. In point of fact, each period shades almost imperceptibly into the next.[58] ”
Traditional pottery, including cooking pots, jugs, mugs and plates that are still hand-made and fired in open, charcoal-fueled kilns as in ancient times in historic villages like al-Jib (Gibeon), Beitin (Bethel) and Senjel.[59]
Now, which one is closer to the wording of the original? Tiamat 14:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Pottery from the historic region of Palestine is not the same as pottery produced within the modern Palestinian identity. Please don't use ambiguous language to conflate unrelated concepts. Tewfik Talk 20:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is about Palestinians, not ancient Canaanites, or even ancient Palestine. There have been persistent attempts to insert revisionist history implying that ancient Canaanites were actually Palestinians in the modern sense, something even Palestinian historians don't claim. Please stop inserting sentences like "Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan", which have nothing to do with modern Palestinians, and which come from a book not even written by historians, but rather by journalists. It's bad enough we're including material from non-historians, let's not compound the problem. Jayjg (talk) 13:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
You are ignoring that other editors have agreed that Kunstel and Albright's work should be included with the other Canaanite material. In your latest wholesale revision (of only 2,000 bytes this time) you also deleted this (among other things) :
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
It comes from a Nebel et al. (2000) study in journal of Human Genetics.
Why do you keep deleting reliably sourced information relevant to the topic of Palestinian ancestry? Tiamat 13:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
"Whitelam's book has several obvious flaws, which undercut to some degree the valuable point he is making. The Canaanites of the Bronze Age were not "Palestinians." The name Palestine comes from the Philistines, who were no more indigenous than the biblical Israelites (and probably less so than the historical Israelites). The modern Palestinians are descended neither from Canaanites nor from the Philistines, but are Arabs, who emerged as a people of this land well into the Common Era. To speak of the history of the ancient Canaanites as "Palestinian history," then, is misleading, and offers too facile a continuum between the ancient story and modern situation. Neither is it fair to accuse Biblical scholarship of silencing Palestinian history, or even Canaanite history... Finally Whitelam risks reducing his thesis ad absurdum when he tries to explain all modern theories of the origin of Israel by Zionist sympathies... Whitelam's implication of a vast web of Zionist sympathy, embracing everyone from Albright to Finkelstein, smacks of paranoia." John Joseph Collins, The Bible After Babel: Historical Criticism in a Postmodern Age, page 66.
"There need be no doubt, of course, of Whitelam's own values. They are indicated repeatedly by his identification of the Canaanites of the Late Bronze Age as Palestinians. This identification is problematic in several respects. It is anachronistic, and the sense that the land was not called Palestine in the Late Bronze Age - the name in fact come from the Philistines, who were invading the land at approximately the same time as the Israelites (if the Israelites were indeed invading). The modern Arab Palestinians only emerged as the people of this land well into the Common Era. The ancient Canaanites are of no genetic relevance to the modern Palestinians; at most they provide a historical analogy." John Joseph Collins, "The Politics of Biblical Interpretation", Encounter with Biblical Theology, p. 42.
"...in 1996 Keith W. Whitelam... published a much more radical and provocative statement: The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History. In this manifesto, the overtly ideological and political agenda of the revisionist was made explicit. Not only had modern scholars, especially pious Christians and Zionist Israelis, "invented" their Israels, but in the process they had dispossessed the Palestinians, the real native people of the region, of their history... But even those sympathetic with his anti-Israel rhetoric have pointed out that the Palestinians of the present conflict were not present in ancient Palestine. They did not emerge as a "people" at all until relatively modern times. Not only is this bad historical method, it is dishonest scholarship. And it unnecessarily drags politics into Near Eastern archaeology..." William G. Dever, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?, pp. 138-139.
Thanks for giving these excerpts, Jayjg and Nadav. Based on these sources, it is clear that there is a notable view to be put in the entry -- notable not as good scholarship, but nevertheless "percolating" and published. So, let's agree on (1) this non-mainstream opinion belongs in the article, and (2) we need to figure out how to characterize this evidence. Do you guys agree with these 2 points? Forget about Tiamut's specific edits and efforts for a minute, step back and tell me this: What kind of qualifying yet NPOV language would you accept to describe the kind of [IYO scientifically indefensible] views that some Palestinians believe? HG | Talk 19:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you base your determination that this is a "fringe" theory on Nadav? Tiamat 19:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. Tiamut... Did I miss something? Of course, I don't know the whole history of Talk on this topic. Let me ask you 2 questions. (1) How would you characterize the thesis in a neutral tone, whether for this or a separate article? (2) Could you accept a separate article, per Nadav's suggestion? Regardless, how would you title a relevant subsection or article on the thesis? HG | Talk 20:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
:Geez, who cares. let her put in her text and sources. then you put in some of your text and sources, saying "somepeople dispute these claims." does that sound so hard? upon further reflection, I realize my comment makes it sound like I am discounting HG's valuable effort at mediation. So i don't want it to appear like i am suggesting that tiamat should not answer such reasonable, useful questions. thanks. --
Steve, Sm8900
20:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg -- If you don't mind, what's your response to the 2 q's. (1) Agree that some role of the thesis in the article. (2) How would you characterize the thesis in article-suitable prose? Also, you agree w/Nadav's proposal for a separate article? HG | Talk 20:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's my suggestion:
there are some analysts who assert that palestinians have some ancestry among ancient Canaanites. there are other experts who assert that such studies are wholly driven by politics, and have no factual basis whatsoever.
hope that helps. -- Steve, Sm8900 21:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Could people actually look at this diff: [33]. In the Ancestry section there, the version on the left is what I proposed to deal with this issue. On the subject of Canaanites, it reads:
The claim that Palestinians are direct descendants of the region's earliest inhabitants, the Canaanites, has been put forward by some authors. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
In her review of their work, Kathleen Christison notes that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [25]
In the journal Science, it was reported that "most Palestinian archaeologists were quick to distance themselves from these ideas," and some of those interviewed expressed their view that the issue of who was in Palestine first was an ideological issue that lay outside of the realm of archaeological study. [26] Khaled Nashef, the director of the Palestinian Institute for Archaeology, emphasized the importance of developing the nascent Palestinian archaeological school, arguing that, "Archaeology here has concentrated on historical events or figures important to European or Western tradition. This may be important, but it doesn't provide a complete picture of how local people lived here in ancient times." [26] Bernard Lewis writes that, "In terms of scholarship, as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs," [27] and that, "The rewriting of the past is usually undertaken to achieve specific political aims... in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews." [27]
Isn't this a fair formulation? If not, what is specifically wrong with it? Tiamat 21:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I just thought I would editors know that I will be taking a wikibreak (from this article in particular) for a little bit since I have real-life editing to do on a book for a professor and this has been diverting my energies from there for too long now. I hope that when I come back, some industrious editors will have made improvements to the ancestry and DNA sections as they are are currently poorly composed and inaccurate (the diffs I have provided above and the draft for the DNA section might be useful to those who wish to do some integrative work. I have tried to correct those problems myself, but since there is resistance by selected editors to the versions I have proposed, I don't want to engage in edit wars to restore the information as is (even though I believe that everything there is adequately sourced and cited and gives a rather fair treatment of the issues involved). I'll be looking it over when I have the time and come back with some new ideas and improvements of my own. I appreciate the comments and suggestions on how to break this deadlock. Happy editing. Tiamat 14:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
During the period of the Mandate, the Zionist Organization worked to secure the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. The indigenous people of Palestine, whose forefathers had inhabited the land for virtually the two preceding millenia, felt this design to be a violation of their natural and inalienable rights. They also viewed it as an infringement of assurances of independence given by the Allied Powers to Arab leaders in return for their support during their war. The result was mounting resistance to the Mandate by Palestinian Arabs, followed by resort to violence by the Jewish community as the Second World War drew to a close.
...the chief ideologue of the Zionists, Borochov, claimed that Palestinian Arabs had no crystallized national consciousness of their own, and would likely be assimilated into the new Hebraic nationalism, precisely because, in his view, "the fellahin are considered in this context as the descendants of the ancient Hebrew and Canaanite residents 'together with a small admixture of Arab blood'".29 Similarly Ahad Ha’am wrote that "the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land…who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam".30 In 1918, David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, writing in Yiddish, tried to establish that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life constitute the living historical testimony to Israelite practices in the biblical period. But the ideological implications of this claim became very problematic and were soon withdrawn from circulation.31
Tiamat 12:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Passing of Traditional Society" by Dr. Ali Qleibo [34]. This perspective is important to the article in that it discusses how identity is self-constructed and fluid:
Identity – whether personal or collective, individual or cultural – is fiction; a construction and merely a codification of past events, real or imaginary. Identity is first and foremost a discursive narrative that validates the present by selecting events, characters, and moments in time as formative beginnings.
He continues, describing Palestinian self-perceptions as influenced by Islam:
In Palestine, Moslem historiography has assigned the advent of Islam, seventh century AD, as the beginning of Palestinian cultural identity. Pagan origins are disavowed. As such the peoples that populated Palestine throughout history have discursively rescinded their own history and religion as they adopted the religion, language, and culture of Islam.
He then puts forward his opinion as an anthropologist that:
The diversity of the customs and manners of the Palestinian social landscape bears witness to the multiplicity of the early Semitic peoples’ ancient waves of migration and settlement in the various regions of the land of Canaan. Research demonstrates that mosques in the countryside are modern phenomena. Until the end of the nineteenth century, in lieu of mosques, people turned to local patron saints, each of whom had his own maqam, the typical domed single room in the shadow of an ancient carob or oak tree. Each village has its own narrative that describes its holy man, his special grace with God (karamat), his power of intercession (shafa’at), and the miraculous context in which the maqam was built … Holy men, awlia’Allah, were the centre of religious life at a time when the absolute transcendent other was deemed unreachable. These saints, tabooed by orthodox Islam, mediated between man and the Supreme One. Saints’ shrines and holy men’s memorial domes dot the Palestinian landscape – an architectural testimony to Christian/ Moslem Palestinian religious sensibility and its roots in ancient Semitic religions.
It continues on in greater detail. A lot of this last part might be useful in the religion section since it is a local form of religious worship. (Shahin discusses it in her book Palestine: A Guide as well). Tiamat 15:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Urban centres and peasant and Bedouin communities date back thousands of years - to the early beginnings of the nascent Canaanite city-states. The Bedouins did not suddenly burst forth from the Arabian Peninsula, and the peasants are not simply a step in the social evolutionary ladder to urbanization. Rather through time the Palestinians, who are descendants of the ancient civilizations of the Near East, have diversified economic tactics in overlapping ecological zones. Over the past four millennia, the native Palestinian population has developed socially strategic adaptive tools of survival within an extremely harsh ecological system.
Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into Palestine as their homeland: Jebusites, Canaanites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabateans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and European crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and Mongols, were historical “events” whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes.
The Philistines fade into oblivion after the fifth century BC. The Nabateans survived through Roman Palestine. Herodia, the mother of Salome, was Nabatean. Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity - albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture.
No other anthropological sources have been presented that contest this view. The hubbub that ensued based on the notion that the premise that Palestinians are the descendants of earlier populations who settled in Palestine is a fringe one, seems to heavily misplaced. Tiamat 10:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
"Defines" means they define it now; "defined" means they defined it then. The second part of this paragraph states that the most recent draft of the Palestinian constitution now includes those that weren’t included forty years ago; hence "defines" is wrong and "defined" is correct. Itzse 17:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Much of the introduction is based on the Palestinian view of themselves. The Palestine national charter and the constitution for a State of Palestine are POV of how the Palestinians want to view themselves. It has no place in a neutral Encyclopedia, and if for completeness it has to be quoted then it must be clearly labeled and not part of the introduction. Itzse 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't self-definition a key component of nationhood or peoplehood? Or is Palestinian a "race" that you either belong to or don't? The subject of the article is the Palestinian people, as distinct from Israelis, Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. We go by the definitions used by the people themselves to determine who is or is not a part of those identities, because identity is constructed, not inherent or innate. Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect and that definition. Tiamat 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Please Itzse, spare me. How does the sub-heading "Palestinian views on Palestinians" make the article more NPOV [35]? It's totally redundant. I retained your insertion of the newer source for the proposed draft constitution of the state of Palestine and formatted it and accept the new quote. But the other changes were not improvements. Tiamat 22:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't self-definition a key component of nationhood or peoplehood? Or is Palestinian a "race" that you either belong to or don't? The subject of the article is the Palestinian people, as distinct from Israelis, Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. We go by the definitions used by the people themselves to determine who is or is not a part of those identities, because identity is constructed, not inherent or innate. Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect and that definition. Tiamat 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody agree with Steve and Tiamut that the Palestinians get to write and define who they are, and the article should be the point of view of the Palestinians? Itzse 20:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
If you are sincere in de-personalizing our discussion, it would help if you stop agreeing with Steve who agrees with Tiamut one hundred percent; and take this discussion on its merits. I do not appreciate the tone in your comments; I find them tendentious; frankly I find you in cahoots with them, which you have, a right; but don't pretend otherwise.
Let's see if we can have a discussion of substance instead of obfuscation such as: "I agree 100% with ...", "My opinion is ... what I stated above", "I support ...".
You state that: "(Hence, the PLO definition is useful in demonstrating how Palestinians identify themselves. This is because the PLO can be "objectively" shown, by non-Palestinian sources, to be a notable and significant source of representation for Palestinians.)"
Are you saying that their changing the definition of who is a Palestinian, can be "objectively" shown by non-Palestinian sources? Whom are you kidding?
You state that: "(without insisting on equal footing within the intro, for WP Policy reasons stated above)."
Where do you see such a WP policy? Please read again
WP:NCON 4.1.1. which states that "Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name." It states explicitly that it applies to the name. Where do you read that it extends to the article? Are you really suggesting that WP policy states that one POV gets to define itself because the article is about them and they have a right to self-identifying?
You state that: "Granted, the article might refer somewhere to other definitions, or critiques of the mainstream self-identifying definition, whether by Palestinians or Israelis or anyone, as long as fringe viewpoints are not given undue weight."
Your granting that the article might refer somewhere to other definitions, is really very nice of you; although you qualify it with a "might" and a "as long as fringe viewpoints are not given undue weight". What would I do without you?
You state that: "I doubt that either Steve or Tiamut are saying that editors get some kind of priority here because they are Palestinian. I think they're only saying that, per #1 above, self-identification by notable Palestinian sources is central."
Then you haven't read what they write. Tiamut writes that "Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect that definition." Do you agree with her? She also writes about me that "Your viewpoint is a fringe one. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, but most of the world accepts that Palestinians exist and have a right to define themselves as they see fit". Do you agree with her? Steve writes that "Every ethnic group has some leeway to build its own articles as it sees fit, within certain guidelines." Do you agree with him? Eleland writes that "Extreme-minority viewpoints are generally not included in an article at all, let alone allowed to disrupt and dominate the entire narrative." Do you agree with him that the opposing view of the Palestinians is an extreme-minority viewpoint? Steve writes that he's "not sure what the dispute is here". Do you agree with him? Tiamut un-tendentiously writes that (her words) "I don't give a f-ck whether my ancestors called themselves Palestinians or not. I know what I call myself now and I know who my ancestors are and where they came from." Do you accept that?
If you find my words sarcastic; it is only because of my disappointment on this particular page where I haven't found many a true word, including your unfair involvement; but the real disappointment is of the other editors who for whatever personal reasons they have; derailed everything I tried to do, starting with summoning Stemonitis; and the disgusting silence of others. They may as well give the Palestinians everything on a golden platter. With such brothers, who needs enemies?
Itzse
20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me or is putting in "Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" as a hyperlink in a article about the Palestinian people unnessesary and kind of biast? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddytheceltic ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Ah good im happy atleast someone else noticed it. Your right to critise the person. Clearly hes ignorant and biast towards his most likely Zionist beliefs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddytheceltic ( talk • contribs) 21:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Itzse has reverted my latest edit to the article so as to remove the word nation along with a slew of other unrelated changes. I have explained my position to him on his talk page that the use of the word nation is appropriate given the many reliable sources who use the term in reference to Palestinians, some of which are cited in the intro itself. I would appreciate help from other editors in reasoning with Itzse on this issue. We have discussed the question of Palestinian nationhood or peoplehood several times, and other editors have pointed out that his view that Palestinians are not a people or nation is a fringe one. Your assistance and input are welcome. Tiamut 19:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
1) moved the paragraph on population figures and religion back to where it was after the introductory paragraph. It is more appropriate to place it there per the format of other leads on peoples or nations (See Armenian people for an example).
2) I changed "11 million" (as in your edit) to "between 10 and 11 million" since it better reflects the data in the article.
3) I replaced your version of this paragraph:
The idea that Palestinians form a distinct people is reltively recent. [28] Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century. [28] At the same time most saw themselves as part of the larger Arab or Muslim community. [28] The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre- World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people. [28] and the first demand for Palestinian independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [29]After 1948, and even more so after 1967 the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state. [28]
with this version:
The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [28] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [30] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state. [28]
Why? Let's see. the first two sentences of your version are already covered in the etymology section directly below the introduction rendering its inclusion here redundant. I also feel the use of endonymic (I was inspired by the Armenian article) in my version of the same material covered in the sentences following those, is useful to the reader. Further, I find my version to more concise, less repetitive, better structured (without spelling mistakes) and more in line with the overall article.
I also don't see why links to the 1948 Palestinian exodus and the 1967 Palestinian exodus are not appropriate in the lead, or as you put it in one of your edit summaries to be "gruesome details", so I reincluded them in the last sentence of your version of that paragraph above, which I retained in my edit.
I am going to reinstate this edit soon if someone else does not (which is still without the word nation and very much to my chagrin at that I might add). I don't feel you should be able to blindly revert my compromise edit and then demand that I discuss after I've made such extensive efforts. Please discuss which parts you would like to see changed before blindly reverting the edit again. Thank you for your time and have a nice night. Tiamut 22:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.' [28]
Now give a look at how Encyclopedia Britannica writes an article about Palestinians (tries to be fair) and Tiamut writes the article. If anybody thinks that Tiamut doesn't have an agenda and is not a POV pusher, I have no desire to go into a meaningless debate; you can choose between me and her; one of us is gotta go.
I'm taking a Wikipedia vacation and leave it up to you. Bye for now my friends. Itzse 21:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
One editor believes that the introduction of this article should reflect the fact borne out in the citations throughout the text that Palestinians are a nation. (Note that nation here is not to be confused with nation-state.) The other editor disputes idea that Palestinians are a nation and wants no mention of it in the lead.01:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
my take: the clear cut nation is arabs, palestinians are a mishmash of arabs and some ottomans (and very few others), i'm not sure on what really makes them into a nation other than them being held by the arabs as pawns (without citizenship or rights) in the arab-israeli conflict... i've seen the ottoman maps from 1860 and i honestly believe that without israel (now or in the future), there would be no palestinian "self identification" only clandish identification (iraq anyone?) within' the arab national. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a bold new experiment, a type of experiment which has never been tried on the Wikipedia and which might actually be considered unWikian in character. But I am going to propose it anyway:
It is clear to me that the two parties in this debate are not nearing any kind of agreement. While the disagreement is concentrating on a few words, it is clear that it goes much, much deeper than that. I will try to summarize it thus (correct me if I am wrong): Tiamut believes that the Palestinians are a nation, with all the characteristics of a nation. Itse believes that the Palestinians are not a nation, and that the claim to nationality is simply a political ploy in a sophisticated attempt to undermine Israel's legitimacy.
Because of this chasmic difference in POVs, there is no way that they will ever agree. The dispute goes to the very structure of the article - this argument over the word "nation" is just the tip of the iceberg.
So here is my suggestion. Itse, leave Tiamut's article alone. Write a separate article on the same topic, and give it a temporary name (Palestinian Arabs?). You both must commit to writing fairly, and to representing both viewpoints as accurately as you can. You both must commit to documenting thoroughly and being generally scholarly in approach. I realize, Itse, that Tiamut has a big headstart on you, but I think it will be worth your while.
When you have both finished, and your articles - as fair and unbiased as you can make them - are completed, let's have a public review - another RfC. Let's see if the editors of the RfC see a possibility of merging the articles, or of settling the differences. My guess is that the two articles could be combined.
But, in the event that, even after an RfC, no reconciliation is possible, I say let's leave both articles. We could write a meta-article, which would say, in effect: "Dear Wikipedia reader, here are two unreconcilable views of this topic, read them both and you will come away with a real understanding of the nature of the dispute." Under the circumstances, I think this approach - while very unencyclopedic - would best serve the users of our work. -- Ravpapa 20:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Propose - that this RfC, having been open 3 days, be closed, and that "Palestinian people" be accepted as a nation (assuming we have RSs who say that is what some believe themselves to be). I propose this on the basis that (so we're told) "peoples" are free to self-identify as "nations", and I don't see any contra-indications to this claim. PalestineRemembered 12:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Scholarly sources (besides those already listed in the article) for those hold-outs on the issue of Palestinian nationhood:
What would be the meaning of an Israeli acknowledgment-or, for that matter, an acknowledgment by the United States or other third parties-of Palestinian nationhood? Most important, nationhood implies certain attributes and rights; thus, to acknowledge that Palestinians are a nation would carry with it certain implications for issues that are currently matters of contention between the parties. (p.31)
Well, first, the definition of "nation" is problematic. Secondly, the first sentence loses nothing when the word nation is removed, so I just proceeded with that. Beit Or 18:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Schiemann, who championed minority rights during the period between WWI and WWII, pioneered the concept of separation of nation (Volksgemeinschaft—national community) and of state (Staatsgemeinschaft—state community). "Nation" is used to denote an "ethnic/cultural nation" which does not require land; what it does (at least from my readings) require is a sense of nation, that is, a demonstrated sense of common cultural heritage, unity, and purpose; of self-identity as a community of people, etc. I should also clarify that neither does "nation" imply "nationalism" in terms of striving for territorial acquisition, political gains, etc. And I should add that "Palestinian people" (people indicating shared origin) is not a substitute for "Palestinian nation."
So, with reference to Steve, Sm8900's contention that the Palestinians are nationality but not a nation, the proper usage is reversed. "Nationality" is the term aligned with nation-state (country), not "nation". To indicate identity without implying "country-hood" one would say the Palestinians are a nation; to indicate country-hood/territory one would say anyone who is a citizen of a country "Palestine" is of Palestinian nationality.
The editors might consider leaving "nation" and inserting "(national community)" after its first use to disambiguate, and to use the unambiguous "nation-state" when referring to territory or the potential outcome of territorial aspirations. —
Pēters J. Vecrumba
I've removed "nation" for a few reasons.
<<-armon->> 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
the reference to this article-study about a possible gene flow from Africa is racist. This study is so stupid that the researcher based his conclusion on the PREMISE!! that: Since Ashkinazi Jews who (he says!?) left to Rome in the second century to Rome and Europe don't have this African female Haplogroup L1/L3 now then that means the Haplogroup did not exist in the Middle East at that time and Hence it was brought later by the Arab slave trade starting from the Arabic conquest 600 AD. Now this is unbelievable Pure racism Hatered and unscientificness ( more of stupidity), Since what scientific evidence he had that jews went to Europe? ( How do we know if this fable is not a Zionist lie). Again since that study it is found that this same Haplogroup L is found in Europe even in Scandinavia( as same percentage as in Arabic countries) So why other researchers say that it came to Europe in the Neolithic age ( 6000 Years ago) and not through slave trade?? and this L is found in West Europe but not in East Europe, so this actually another evidence that the Ashkenazi women originated from Eastern Europe and never been in the Middle East ( Arabs and South and Northwest Europe Have it!) This study is suggestive and not confirming and is based on false (very stupid) premise. I intend to remove its citation because it is also irrelevent and RACIST!02:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! and since we have no scientific evidence that Indeed Jews travelled to Rome in 120 AD, or 4 women in 100 AD traveled to Rome to join the jews ( unless if you have a photo of them on a ship with a roman name on the ship and a video recording showing the ship captain in the same frame with those jews that indeed he is sailing to Rome and a clock in the back ground showing calender of 120 AD or 1000 AD)
So this guy the author of the study says ( since jews he left palestine to rome in 120 AD brought with them their women and those women as currently reveal they don't have the N1 N3 Female haplotype, then it did not exist in the middle east by then, because if it did the jrews wiuld have wives from that same haplogroup with them)) can you see how stupid the basis of his argument on which he conclude that the Haplogroup is caused by bringing slave women from Africa After 120 AD (ie when the Arabs prevailed in 700 AD and Later) You see the craziness and biasness scientists are willing to do for a piece of bread or a bunch of coins —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.168.17.167 (
talk)
00:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The recent Genetical studies proved that the impact of Arabs on North africa ( and every where they immigrated to ) is huge ( not to mention the first immigration of the Neolithic period (Phoenicians=semitic language speaking relative of Arabs (The Aramaeans). Also recent study proved that there is great affinity between Race and Language through genetic studies too. While Ibn Khaldoun ( a berber impostering as descendent from Arabs) claims that the primacy of the Arabs made occupied countries speak Arabic while the people are descendent from Pre Arabic Stock, this Hypothethis had no scientific proof in the 13th century while recent studies proved beyond doubt that people in North Africa and Palestine speak Arabic because they Are Arabs in Blood. need to delete Ibn Khaldoun ref03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise "!!!! This quotation is racist claiming there is a promise? and there is a bypassing? of Israelite existance!! even though archaeological studies failed to prove that Israelites had hegomony on Palestine for a substansial time. Yet this Zionist jewish Louis puting these stupid allegations as corner stones and pillars or tenets of Scientific History. This guy is old and worthless. THis statement of his is unscientific racist and insulting to muslims and palestinians about regarding something not existant (the Promise) He wants to impose the interpretation representing 10 million southern babtist and 10 million jews and impose it on 2 billion muslims + 2 million christians and the rest of the world. Not every thing this old man poke out from his mouth is pearls, they could be goat duns too. need to cut because racist and defamatory.03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. While I think that Lewis is an Orientalist whose personal views on Arabs may not be that free of bias, I don't think his being Jewish has anything to do with whether or not he is a credible source here. Also, the quote isn't racist. It's his opinion, as a historian, regarding why the thesis of Canaanite descent is important to Palestinians, within the context of their struggle with Israel. It's something echoed in the work of Mohammed Zakariya, though the motivations for his critique are quite different. Please try to refrain from linking people's ethno-religious backgrounds to the credibility of their arguments. Thanks. Tiamut 10:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is not about that. It is about he says Palestinians trying to BYPASS (((ancient Israelites))) Now he says ancient israelites exist even though in many other instances he doubts their existance ( at least as a state or nation that had exclusive right to palestine which never happened Historically as from Scientific point of view there is no evidence ( archaeological or other wise )) that they even existed in the Palestine or immigrated from Egypt or Iraq. I am saying the man is very old (Alzheimer effect) he must have been injected alot of prestigue he does not deserve. Secondly he talks about a (Promise) ?? I read the Bible million times there was no promise but just a covenent ( agreement((If you do this I do that for you, If you don;t do this I will send you to diaspora)) and so there is no Promise. And even if there is a promise, it does not obligate other peoples because the bible from the scientific point of view could be fake or forfieted or messed up with. And the Promise he talks about is only an interpretation of the 10 million jews ( not all jews) and the extreme sect of the protestants just a nother 10 million or so. So what kind of silly scientific reasoning he is bringing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 00:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
.
The notion that J2 is a sister clade of J1 is no longer taken. J2 is 8 main clades only one of these clades originated from the mountains north of the Levant (Kurds, Armenians). The old studies 1996 (stone age in genetic geneology) was ignorant of these subclades. Over 90% of all J2s is in Europe. The Hypothesis that one of J2 clades immigrated from north of the levant as the Indo Europeans is nor longer taken. It is unlikely that a J2 clade members be higher across the seas than it is origin country. (Semino et al 2004). You write that Jews have twice as much as j1 ( sounds like twice J1 in the Arabs) and that is wrong. Need to reformulate that J2 is double J1 of both in Jews. Also, according to the summary of Coffman study J2 is different ancestries ( each one started way back before History) and Jews have all these subclades of J2. J2 (coffman ) is not semitic. Only J1 is connected to semitic peoples and semitic languages ( Phoenicians spoke semitic hence they are J1 too)( see Coffman). Need to specify that j2 is composed of different ancestries.
Dear Tianut: The DNA clues section was about the prevalence of J1 in Palestine and surrounding countries (J1 originated in this area (the only one, while only one subclade of J2 originated in north of the Levant ( remote isolated mountains not considered part of Semitic civilizations). The addition of J2 to the DNA clues disturbed the irony. If you are interested still in explaining J2 presence then you have to explain the whole picture about J2 ( that it is 8 subclades only one clade found in Arabic countries that of the Kurds while the rest of the clades are mainly in Europe. You would need to specify the difference between Jews and (Arabic Countries) that Jews have all these J2 subclades ( all not semitic) and Arab countries have only one clade!!. I prefer to not expand into J2 since it is irrelevant. In 2000 Nebet ( and Hammer before him) made a study of the suboverlapping of Haplotypes between arabs and Jews ( as if he is not the aware of the existance of Haplogroips by 2000!?) Then in 2001 made an apologistic study that Jews ARE SIMILAR TO NON Semitic peoples in the Middle East than to the Arabs) that came after great criticism from Diekenz Anthropoly blog run by a great genetist. Either these studies shoulb included or we better get rid of the old (vendicated studies in the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.28.120 ( talk) 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. What you are saying is very interesting. I'm not a geneticist and the DNA material has been challenging for me. Why don't you make some edits clarifying some of this? I will happily fix the language if you write the science and provide the sources. Tiamut 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC) I will gladly do this . but I think details should be in Haplogroup J1 and J2 articles.
According to a recent study of comparision between Lebanese muslims and Lebanses christians (Maronites) both had J1 but of both recent ancestry (arabs and jews) and earlier ancestry of J1 ( of the phoenicians and araemeans J1) However christians had more of phoenician (and other related semitic speaking peoples araemeans Canaanites et) than of the Arab J1 characterized by the Galili Modal Haplotype. ant DNA close to Galli modal haplotype is considered Arabic or jewish ( Cohan modal Haplotype and Sanaa modal haplotype and North African arab modal haplotype and the Bedoin of Negev desert modal haplotype (Nabataeans first son of Ishmael). The J1 DNA that modal haplotype that is a little bit further is considered of the Phonicians. For example DYS in Cohan modal Haplotype is 16 alleles ( found in Cohanim people and arabs#2 millions in Oman alone) while if DYS was 17 it becomes the Haplotype of the Arabs who conquered north Africal in 7th century AD ( Arabs of Muhammad and also of Ghassanids) the Nabataeans ( Bedoin of the Negev) have also close numbers. However the Phoenicians could be DYS 14 etc. The Cohan Modal haplotype is 6 codes ( 5 in addition to DYS 388 or 12 codes) both ways 6 or 12 the Arabs have closer numbers to Cohanim ( known to preserved Paternal ancestry from Aaron because they were special and the only descendents of Aaron) while Levites are descendents of Levites ( Levi is ancestor of Aaron) As concerning the number of J1 in Palestinians it was adjusted after Semino study to account for new readings of the previous studies by Nebet and Hammer when J1 could not be differentiated from J2 in 1998 and 2000. So it is at 62%. However these samples are even very scewed because they were made by three Israeli researchers ( nebet Behar and Hammer) (all of them work with Coffman in the Family DNA company) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 06:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC) It is amazing that the Galilie Modal Haplotype (GMH) discovered by Nebet in 2000 in a sample of Palestinians in Galili ( Israel) became the Modal Haplotype of the Arabs of the 7th century conquest, but a very close haplotype is Cohan Modal Haplotype which is also found in Arabs in Oman ( in large numbers), Hence GMH could even represent the ancient jews and Cohan Modal Haplotype as well could represent the Arabs. The Arabs are the great possessers of GMH as well the CMH in J1 in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 06:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
To: Michael, the several refs regarding mutations and genetic diseases should be at the bottom. As regarding the Nebet studies he has two 2000 and 2001: in 2001 he conclude that haplotypes /groups overlap with palestinians and jews, However because of critisizm from Geneticists in 2001 he corrected himdself by concluding from the same study sample that jews were more similar to non arabs in Middle East than Arabs, and this is how I arranged that. The last section about the Gene flow from Africa is no longer valid since this female gene was found in the Europeans themselves ( from Neolithic times--preHistory). What was thought as aflow from slavery is actually the homeland of that female gene is the middle East( and africa). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 07:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
(Have removed rant from an editor now blocked, you can find it in history if you're really interested). PR talk 19:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are Palestinians really so different from other surrounding Arabs, like Jordanians, to consider them separate ethnic group? After all borders in that area were drawn by colonial powers and almost never properly followed ethnic borders, so is it actualy possible to draw ethnic a line for example between Palestinian and Jordanian? Shouldn't palestinians count as simply part of Arabs? Btw, as we can see wiki article about arabs uses picture of family in ramallah at 1905, which indicates that there isn't any serious difference between palestinians and arabs. Also we do not have articles about Jordanians or Saudi Arabians or Iraqis or Tunesians or Libyans or Omanis as separate ethnic groups(almost all those redirect to articles about states). What makes Palestinians different from these that allows them to be categorised as ethnicity?-- Staberinde 09:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
lewis-p17
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)Another haplotype study by Almut Nebel et al. (2000) found that: "According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help) According to Nebel et al. (2002), the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1; at rates between 30% – 62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East. (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001).
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Why is there no information in reference to the current Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza? Is there anything more contemporary and important than this Palestinian struggle going on right now? Land disputes? Escalation in Palestinian deaths? I can go on, seems strange not to have it in an article concerning Palestinians. (UTC)
abu_afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
Before 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, and Jordan had Annexed the West Bank- and there were no 'Palestinians'.. except Jews.
While everyone's caught up on Genetics....(which I can discuss as well)
Even the word is Revisionist.
Palestinian nationalism was nonexistant Before Israel came into existence.
If you said 'Palestinian' in 1900, 1920, 1940, or even 1960-- you were referring to a Jew!
This topic is supposed to be about the USAGE of the Term 'Palestinian' and it's evolution/history. Yet...
""Palestinians" [are an] Arab people no one heard of before 1967 before Israeli governments certified this piece of propaganda... As has been noted many times before, prior to 1948, that is before Jews had begun to call themselves Israelis, the ONLY persons known as "Palestinians" were Jews, with the Arabs much preferrring to identify themselves as part of the great Arab nation.
- David Basch
"...Palestine does not belong to the "Palestinians" and never did. They did not even call themselves Palestinians until the middle 1960s. Before that, the word "Palestinian" meant "Jewish," while the local Arabs called themselves simply "Arabs." The creation of the PLO by Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1964 was a brilliant ploy to distort the parameters of the dispute, largely for propaganda purposes. It was inconvenient to have a conflict between 20-odd Arab states with an area 530 times greater than Israel, a population more than 30 times greater than Israel's and enormously richer natural resources. Far better to invent a "Palestinian" nation that would be the eternal "underdog," - a nation consisting partly of Immigrants from Syria and other Arab countries who came to benefit from the rapidly growing economy Zionist Jews created..."
westerndefense.org
"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937
So before the creation of the State of Israel, who were the Palestinians?
Until 1950, the name of the Jerusalem Post was THE PALESTINE POST; the journal of the Zionist Organization of America was NEW PALESTINE; Bank Leumi was the ANGLO-PALESTINE BANK; the Israel Electric Company was the PALESTINE ELECTRIC COMPANY; there was the PALESTINE FOUNDATION FUND and the PALESTINE PHILHARMONIC. All these were Jewish organizations.
In America, Zionist youngsters sang "PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE", "PALESTINE SCOUT SONG" and "PALESTINE SPRING SONG" In general, the terms Palestine and Palestinian referred to the region of Palestine as it was. Thus "Palestinian Jew" and "Palestinian Arab" are straightforward expressions. "Palestine Post" and "Palestine Philharmonic" refer to these bodies as they existed in a place then known as Palestine. The adoption of a Palestinian identity by the Arabs of Palestine is a recent phenomenon. Until the establishment of the State of Israel, and for another decade or so, the term Palestinian applied almost Exclusively to the Jews. - Peacefaq
"....Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? ... The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination. . . ." According to Alami, ar indoctrination of the "myth" of nationality would create "identity" and "self-respect."8
However, Alami's proposal was confounded by the Realities: between 1948 and 1967, the Arab state of Jordan claimed annexation of the territory west of the Jordan River, the "West Bank" area of Palestine -- the same area that would later be forwarded by Arab "moderates" as a "mini-state" for the "Palestinians." Thus, that area was, between 1948 and 1967, called "Arab land," the peoples were Arabs, and yet the "myth" that Musa Alami prescribed-the cause of "Palestine" for the "Palestinians" -- remained unheralded, unadopted by the Arabs during two decades. According to Lord Caradon, "Every Arab assumed the Palestinians [refugees] would go back to Jordan."9
When "Palestine" was referred to by the Arabs, it was viewed in the context of the intrusion of a "Jewish state amidst what the Arabs considered their own exclusive environment or milieu, the 'Arab region.' "10 ..."
EretzYisroel.org
"....From the time the Arabians, along with their non-Arabian recruits, entered Palestine and Syria, they found and themselves added to what was "ethnologically a chaos of all the possible human combinations to which, when Palestine became a land of pilgrimage, a new admixture was added."1
Among the peoples who have been counted as "indigenous Palestinian Arabs" are Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudanese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, and Tartars.
John of Wurzburg lists for the middle era of the kingdom, Latins, Germans, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians,Egyptians, Copts, Maronites and natives from the Nile Delta. The list might be much extended, for it was the period of the great self-willed city-states in Europe, and Amalfi, Pisans, Genoese, Venetians, and Marseillais, who had quarters in all the bigger cities, owned villages, and had trading rights, would, in all probability, have submitted to any of the above designations, only under pressure. Besides all these, Norsemen, Danes, Frisians, Tartars, Jews, Arabs, Russians, Nubians, and Samaritans, can be safely added to the greatest human agglomeration drawn together in one small area of the globe."2
Greeks fled the Muslim rule in Greece, and landed in Palestine. By the mid-seventeenth century, the Greeks lived everywhere in the Holy Land--constituting about twenty percent of the population-and their authority dominated the villages.3
Between 1750 and 1766 Jaffa had been rebuilt, and had some five hundred houses. Turks, Arabs, Greeks and Armenians and a solitary Latin monk lived there, to attend to the wants of the thousands of pilgrims who had to be temporarily housed in the port before proceeding to Jerusalem.4
"In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the nineteenth century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported. 5
Another source, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911 edition (before the "more chauvinist Arab history" began to prevail with the encouragement of the British), finds the "population" of Palestine composed of so "widely differing" a group of "inhabitants" -- whose "ethnological affinities" create "early in the 20th century a list of no less than fifty languages" (see below) -- that "it is therefore no easy task to write concisely ... on the ethnology of Palestine." In addition to the "Assyrian, Persian and Roman" elements of ancient times, "the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages."
. . . There are very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece and Italy . . . Turkoman settlements ... a number of Persians and a fairly large Afghan colony . . . Motawila ... long settled immigrants from Persia ... tribes of Kurds ... German "Templar" colonies ... a Bosnian colony ... and the Circassian settlements placed in certain centres ... by the Turkish government in order to keep a restraint on the Bedouin ... a large Algerian element in the population ... still maintain(s) [while] the Sudanese have been reduced in numbers since the beginning of the 20th century.""
In the late eighteenth century, 3,000 Albanians recruited by Russians were settled in Acre. The Encyclopaedia Britannica finds "most interesting all the NON-Arab communities in the country . . . the Samaritan sect in Nablus (Shechem); a gradually disappearing body" once "settled by the Assyrians to occupy the land left waste by the captivity of the Kingdom of Israel."6
The disparate peoples recently assumed and purported to be "settled Arab indigenes, for a thousand years" were in fact a "heterogeneous" community 7 With No "Palestinian" identity, and according to an Official British historical analysis in 1920, No Arab identity either: "The people west of the Jordan are not Arabs, but only Arabic-speaking. The bulk of the population are fellahin.... In the Gaza district they are mostly of Egyptian origin; elsewhere they are of the most mixed race." 8
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/mixed.html
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Abu afak (
talk •
contribs)
00:38, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
end abu_afak/abu_afak2@Yahoo.com
My/abu afak In response to just above.
You are welcome to Rebut this "Zionist Propaganda", and debate me on it. SURELY you can take apart this "Blatant" stuff easily. To everyone reading this. Wiki staff and not.. My challenge will NOT be accepted as this "Zionist propaganda" is the truth. Further, it's my experience people who use the term he does, and I have wide internet debate experience, oft have a problem and/or emanate from a specific world region, where that term is used in broad form to describe virtually any information they don't like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.183.132 ( talk) 02:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
This article ought to elaborate on what dfferentiates Palestanian culture from Arabic culture.
What "Diffferences"? posted by abu afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
"..There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another Recent Invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough....""
- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist
end abu_afak/abu_afak2@yahoo.com
>> WRONG! Scandinavians got different languages yet common history and cultures up to the point they were seperated from eachother. The "palestinians" dont even have That. (Y.S) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.230.210.38 ( talk) 09:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Why are editors trying to introduce a lead that omits mention of Samaritans and Jews? [1] There is a documented Samaritan community of 350 people living in Nablus who carry Palestinian ID cards and identify as Palestinian and there are some Jews who identify as Palestinian as well, for example Uri Davis. Further, there are Armenians in the Old City of Jerusalem that identify as Palestinian and they are not Arab. All of this needs to be discussed before being pushed through. There seems to be a rescoping of the article via changes to the definition of Palestinian and renames of the page that must garner consensus before being rammed through. Tiamat 17:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Some Druze in Israel do identify as Palestinian. For example, the Arab citizens of Israel article notes that: In 2001, Said Nafa, who identifies as a Palestinian Druze and serves as the head of the Balad party's national council, founded the "Pact of Free Druze", an organization that aims "to stop the conscription of the Druze and claims the community is an inalienable part of the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian nation at large." [2] The exact number may be in dispute, but that there are "Palestinian Druze" is not in question. Ditto for Samaritans, Jews, and even Armenians and others. Tiamat 22:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
What number do minorities have to reach before they are notable enough for inclusion in the lead? And whose engaged in political grandstanding? Aren't politicians supposed to represent the identity, needs, and positions of their constituencies? Tiamat 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Because there are no definitive numbers that address that issue, I couldn't tell you. However, using common sense, knowing that there are some Druze who do identify as Palestinian (As per the source I provided you above) I can deduce that there there is a minority Druze population among Palestinians. Similarly, knowing that there are more than 300 Samaritans living in Nablus, I know that there is a Samaritan minority among Palestinians. The significance of these groups should not be restricted by their small numbers. Tiamat 00:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Considering there are only 700 Samaritans worldwide, roughly half of whom live in Nablus and the other half in Holon, I would argue that they deserve mention in the lead. i.e., roughly half of this existing minority population are Palestinians. This is notable. I brought you material that proves that an elected leader of the Druze community in Israel defines himself as Palestinian (he also represents a constitutency); that is notable. Finally, I would ask that you drop the dismissive tone and attitude and try to treat others with the respect you demand for yourself. Tiamat 10:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
It refers to Palestinian "resistence", misses no chance in its chronology pages to count "massacres" of palestinians, and from it's chronoloy of 1967 one would think there was no war and Israel spontaneously annexed territory. It doesn't even substitute militant for terrorist, it calls them "activists". When Palestinians die on Sept 28 of 1996 they are "matyred". And finally, it calls Palestine a country. It clearly has an agenda. If this source is not reliable as I assert I will remove all "facts" that use this as a reference in a day or two. Smaug 21:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Plenty of false information here on DNA information. No mention of the fact that overall Jews are far more associated with Haplogroup J2, common in the northern fertile cresent and Mediterranean basin, than J1, more associated with Arabs, including Palestinians, which you are trying to portray as the "authentic marker" of "Semitic speakers". Plus, the research on "CMH" is still inconclusive and hotly debated, despite the way you are trying to portray it. There is no credible reason to believe that CMH lies outside of the main Jewish distributions. Shoddy scholarship with a strong political motivation are profoundly evident here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 02:18, 16 July 2007 ( talk • contribs) 151.200.35.152.
Because I have noticed that there are some editors who are confused about the concept of Arab and the concept of Arabian. I would suggest you to read this [5]. It shows you how Arabs, and ancient Arabs classified themselves into three categories... Only one of them is the Ishmaelites, cousins of the Israelites. But the rest are really ancient Arabs with whom Ishmael whom were in Arabia even before the arrival of Ishmael. There is a good Arabic book about all this stuff, unfortunately I cannot find an English translation. Almaqdisi talk to me 05:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It now says there are "four different types" of Palestinians. The first definition applies to the term's use in the British Mandate period, whereas the second, third and fourth definitions are "Israeli Palestinians", "West Bank and Gaza Palestinians" and "Diaspora Palestinians". The terminology is confusing and the definition makes it same as though these different groups are mutually exclusive whereas they are all Palestinians, just in different temporal and geographic spaces. It has to be changed. Tiamat 00:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Really? Shall we go through them then, one by one? Here is the diff:
Palestinians, like most other Arabic-speakers, combine ancestries from those who have come to settle the region throughout history; though the precise mixture is a matter of debate, on which genetic evidence (see below) has begun to shed some light. The findings apparently confirm Ibn Khaldun's argument that most Arabic-speakers throughout the Arab world descend mainly from culturally assimilated non-Arabs who are indigenous to their own regions. [1]
Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
Kathleen Christison notes in her review of Kunstel and Albright's work that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [3]
Although various Arabian tribes inhabited Palestine since the 3rd millennium BC, [4], increasing conversions to Islam among the local population, together with the immigration of Arabs from Arabia and inland Syria, led to increased Arabization of the population in the Umayyad era.
According to Science, "most Palestinian archaeologists were quick to distance themselves from these ideas," viewing the issue of who was in Palestine first as constituting an ideological issue lying outside of the realm of archaeological study. [5]
Regarding Said's kissing up to Khalidi, this is an article about "Palestinian people", not Khalidi's book. Save the back-slapping for the article about the book. Removing a link to the Establishment of the State of Israel article makes no sense, your wording was worse, the Palestine Post changed its name in 1950 so it's not clear why you would change this to the less accurate "after the 1948 war"). The "without a clear definition" stuff seems to have been slipped in there. The Rosenthal material is 40 years old, and he was a specialist in Arabic literature and Islam, not history; I've already explained at length why we need modern scientific works on this, as the science keeps changing. The problem with POV-pushing this irrelevant Canaanite stuff has already been explained to you by many editors here - your continued attempts to write revisionist history that not even Palestinian historians support are perverse. The Lewis material is dubious, as you haven't quoted him exactly. Your original research regarding the Science article is clear - you are quoting one person and attributing his views to many. Your reversions of Tewfik on the DNA material have not been explained, other than a claim that he "badly misreads"; it. Jayjg (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Why would I do that Jayjg, when I have already outlined the changes I want to make here? Why can't you respond to each of them (they are numbered after all and you can say, "#1 is an issue we have already discussed, number #3 is fine, go ahead and add it ... etc., etc. (I should mention I missed one change in that edit, which is an introductory paragraph to the culture section that I restored after Beit Or deleted it, which you redeleted again without explanation.) Could you please work with me here? Tiamat 09:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiamat 13:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)The claim that Palestinians are direct descendants of the region's earliest inhabitants, the Canaanites, has been put forward by some authors. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
Kathleen Christison notes in her review of Kunstel and Albright's work that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [6]
Every source that puts forward the claim of Canaanite descent is a not a reliable to you which is hwy there is indeed no point in discussing this with you any further. You cannot decide that a source is unreliable without providing evidence to support your claim. The Christison source says they are historians. Do you have a source that says they are pseudo-historians? I didn't think so. The source stays. I've had enough of the automatic denials of sources by you and Jayjg simply because you don't like what they have to say. Tiamat 15:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. Glad to see you only deleted about 1,000 bytes of material here instead of 5,000 bytes as in your previous revert. Now we're getting somewhere.
I have a couple of questions for you about your edit. First the easy ones:
1) Why did you remove " national liberation movement". The PLO was one of a handful of national liberation movements to gain observer status. This is well-documented and relevant to the article.
2) Why did you restore Tewfik's edits to the DNA section. What makes his version more accurate than my own? I explained my edits above in response to your request to do so. Can you explain yours?
As for the ancestry section, we need to discuss that in detail once again once we finish these issues. You once again reverted all of my changes there, even removing a sentence sourced to Lewis regarding Arabian tribes.
But again, I appreciate you taking me up on my request. Please answer these two questions and we'll take it from there. Tiamat 16:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, did you get a chance to look at the DNA section? Tiamat 10:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Recalling also its resolution 3237 (XXIX) of 22 November 1974, by which it granted observer status to the Palestine Liberation Organization, Recalling further its resolution 43/160 A of 9 December 1988, adopted under the item entitled "Observer status of national liberation movements recognized by the Organization of African Unity and/or by the League of Arab States", in which it decided that the Palestine Liberation Organization was entitled to have its communications issued and circulated as official documents of the United Nations, Recalling its resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988, in which it acknowledged the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988 and decided that the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system ...
Questions for Jayjg:
1) Why would you put Kunstel and Albright at the beginning of this section if you claim that their opinion is not as valid as that of "real" historians?
As you can see from my version on the left of the diff placed above, I have put them at the end of this section and contextualized their argument. Your version gives them WP:UNDUE prominence. Further, you version uses Kathleen Christison's review of their book to make a generalized claim about how "most historians do not give credence to these claims." My version places her review after Kunstel and Albright's statement, properly attributing it the context in which it was produced.
2) Why are Ibn Khaldun's writings on Arab ancestry not relevant to this section?
Note that my version does not proffer his thesis as a fact. It refers to the genetics section and points out similarities in his thesis while consigning the determination of the debate to the realm of DNA studies (where it belongs, as per the Palestinian archaeologists statements and even Lewis himself. Genetic questions cannot be answered by historians or archaeologists.)
3) Why do you keep deleting this sentence opening:
Although various tribes from the Arabian peninsula had migrated into Palestine as early as the 3rd millennium BC, [7]
?
It is sourced to Bernard Lewis who you quote from extensively in this section. The reliability of the source, in other words, is not in question. So what's the problem?
I believe that covers the fundamental differences between the version you keep restoring and the one I do. Please answer the questions and we can take it from there. Tiamat 13:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In short Jayjg, I think your objections here are nitpicking. There isn't a solid argument that addresses why my version is unsuitable. Tiamat 10:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, if the view of Nadav and Jayjg is that Ibn Khaldun is not notable enough or credible enough a source for this claim, there are others. For example, in the Nebel et al. study cited in the DNA section, the article clearly states that:
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)."
I might point out that this is exactly what Ibn Khaldun says. But if you prefer that we use "modern historians", there is this quote. Is there any objection to using this source instead of Ibn Khaldun? Tiamat 11:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the section on demography from Palestine to this article. Logically the demography of a people should be discussed in the article on the people and not elswhere. I have made some minor changes to avoid duplications and to facilitate understanding. Benqish 07:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Shalom: it appears that the 'Palestinian people' discussed in this article may not be the same group of people that are discussed in the other article you mentioned. You also had few mistakes and interruptions in the flow of original content. Sory I didn't see this post of yours here before. 65.188.174.171 15:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Where's the big part talking properly on Palestinian History? Oh wait, you don't have any.
The notion that the Palestinians are a "race" or "ethnicity" of people is widely disputed. The evidence suggests that Palestinians are a nationality at best. To define Palestinians as a ethnicity (and let's be honest, "Palestinian people" really means "people who are ethnically Palestinian") is to at once define "people" too narrowly and too broadly. the people that lived in the British Mandate of Palestine and their decendents collectively as "Palestinian people" also describe the people include Jewish citizens of Mandatory Palestine under that umbrella? This would include the entire Yishuv, Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi. According to this view, Menachem Begin is as much a member of the "Palestinian people" as Yaser Arafat. I would suggest that this too broadly defines what is actually being writen about. Would those that would describe the people that lived in the British Mandate of Palestine and their decendents collectively as "Palestinian people" also describe the people that lived in the British Mandate of Mesopotamia and their decendents collectively as "Mesopotamian people?" If not, then "Palestinian people" too narrowly defines what is actually being descibed. -- GHcool 21:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Again what difference does it make if you understand it or not. It's enough that others who do understand it (scholars and laymen) think that it's controversial; that's all that counts. Wikipedia shouldn't reflect your way of thinking more then mine and others. Itzse 23:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I gave you the option of clarifying your intentions. It's no secret that people have agenda's and beliefs. Mine, I spelled out on my user page, stating clearly, that although I have a stong point of view, I believe Wikipedia should represent everybodies. So it is only human to speculate what other people's intentions are.
Now that you have given your consent to renaming it back to "Palestinians", we can turn over another leaf. Be a gentlewoman and make the change. Itzse 00:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
people: "the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like: the people of Australia; the Jewish people."
[Outdent] The banana comparison is extremely weak to the point of being satirical. Maybe that was how it was meant, but I took it that you made the comparison seriously. We (meaning G-Dett and myself) agreed above that "Palestinian" was the best title for this article. To answer G-Dett's question, the group of people that the article talks about is a nationality, a more precise word for what G-Dett describes as "a large group of individuals ... closely bound together culturally, historically, and [often but not necessarily] politically." The term "people" is much more broad and can include virtually anything from ancient civilizations ( Maya peoples) to common ancestry ( Germanic peoples) to ethnic groups ( Romani people) to skin color ( White people) and everything in between. Calling Palestinians a people is misleading at best and anthropoligcally bogus at worst. -- GHcool 05:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the current name Palestinian people is a good article name and should be retained on this article. The controversies over this and similar articles aren't likely to be resolved soon, but there is widespread usage of the term Palestinian people and this seems a remarkably good article on that topic, all things considered. Andrewa 06:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I also objected to the move. But if I'm now the only one (it might be wise to check that others haven't been similarly ignored), that shouldn't be a problem. As this has been listed on WP:RM, it will get admin attention in due course. Andrewa 12:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I object to the move. I know why this guy wants it moved, he is Jewish. Never have I pet anti Israeli statements on Wikipedia as we have to be neutral in here. But I see he doesn't think of it like that.` So I've come here to object to it. All users opposing to Palestinian people are Jewish, this is ridicules! The Honorable Kermanshahi 21:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of this move, why hasn't it happened yet? -- GHcool 06:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
i wonder why it was deemed " no consensus to move" when, according to my count, 6 editors supported the move, 2 against, 1 neutral, and 1 suggesting we move the ethnicity box (similar to support move).
see: 'Consensus building'. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a bad faith deletion of a lot of people's hard work. It is inexcusable. I'm re-adding the most recent debate back here ... -- GHcool 17:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Most people seem to agree that "Palestinians" is the better title and "Palestinian people" is a misleading title. -- GHcool 21:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
-- Eternalsleeper 06:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As a lot of the discussion was moved around and some major portions were deleted, some editor’s positions are missing. Therefore in order to get a clear and fair picture I'll compile them. Itzse 21:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and Tiamut made their vote pretty clear in this discussion - they opposed. As G-Dett wrote below "There was a moment early on when I appeared to be the only holdout, and I was prepared to accept Palestinians to get us out of the deadlock" and that's why when you ganged up on them they slightly gave-in - BUT THEY NEVER VOTED YES FOR THE MOVE - SO THEY NEVER CHANGED THEIR VOTE. On top of it you are twisting their comments. 70.48.106.42 00:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
70.48.106.42 Andrewa, first sign your comment so we'll know who is saying what. They can talk for themselves; they don't need you to speak for them. I am not twisting anything; I didn't say that they changed their vote; I said they changed their position; which they did. Why they changed it, is also clear as they wanted to punish me so they are punishing Wikipedia, Nadav, GHCool and everybody else. Isn't it interesting that Wikipedia is at the mercy of the goodwill of editors not substance? If you dare say what you think you get punished along with everybody else. What a system?
Itzse
23:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Tiamat 20:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)Over the course of the discussion many points were raised as to why "Palestinian people" is preferable. Yes people's position became entrenched by the offensive ideology underlying some people's advocacy for the move of the page to Palestinians, but that was an extenuating circumstances, not a primary one. While you pointed out that "Palestinians" gets 10 times as many hits as "Palestinian people" you did not mention that "Palestinian people" get over 1 million hits. The discussion also pointed out that the PLO uses the term "Palestinian people" and as their sole legitimate representative before the international community, that's a solid reason to name the article as such. Finally, as I pointed out in numerous posts, "Palestinian people" clearly defines the subject of the article. As the term "Palestinians" has referred to different people at different times, the specificity of "Palestinian people" and the formation of this collectivity makes it preferable, particularly since people often get confused as to who this article should and not cover in detail.
I think all this "discussing" doesn’t belong here; mine included. This paragraph is labeled "Consensus building" where you agree or disagree, state your case and that’s it. The debate in one form or another is all over on this talk page so we’ll need to append any discussion or questions to the other paragraphs of this sort.
I’ll try to make a little sense of what has been discussed. If a group of people in Baltimore, Maryland decide one day to become a people; that doesn’t automatically turn them into a people, just because they say so. On the other hand if the Aztec tribe decides one day to exercise their people hood and demand self determination, that would be a serious claim since it is an established fact that the Aztecs are a "people". The Baltimoreans can scream until they are blue in their face that they don’t want to be called Baltimoreans and nobody will even listen, unlike black people in America who are justified in not wanting to be called Negroes since its short form has become a racial slur.
Tiamut asks why is "Palestinians" preferable over "Palestinian people"? The answer is, that on the fundamental question: Do the Arabs who lived in Palestine constitute a people? Tiamut and Arafat (born in Cairo) say yes; Itzse, Golda Meir, my grandfather and even my neighbor say NO. Why should Tiamut’s POV trounce my POV? The burden of proof should be on those who have never been a people to prove that are indeed a people. So even if we’ll use up another thousand talk pages, still I’ll stick to my POV and Tiamut will stick to hers and nobody will be smarter then before. That aside, it has been pointed out that even if the impossible should happen and Tiamut should SOMEHOW be proven right; the people in question refer to themselves as "Palestinians"; right or wrong that’s a fact. So a "factual" fact should be preferable to a "debatable" fact.
G-Dett is correct that Tiamut is exactly on point that using "people" would have "word implications". So to avoid those implications WP should use "Palestinians". G-Dett is also correct that the Palestinian Arabs don’t like to be called as such "for the simple reason that Palestinians do not use that term for themselves and don’t much like it being used about them; they see it as a political attempt to deny their nationality." I would like to remind G-Dett that NOT using "Palestinian Arab" is a political attempt to deny the Jews their nationality, and to convince people that a questionable fact (people) is a factual fact.
So here you have it for anybody interested in the truth. "Palestinian Arabs", although it's a FACT, the Palestinian Arabs don’t want it used, lest you'll think that there were also Palestinian Jews. "Palestinian people", which is at best a DEBATABLE fact, the Palestinian Arabs DO want it used so you'll become convinced that there is a Palestinian people. So in a goodwill gesture, Wikipedia will let the Palestinian Arabs be called the way they want to call themselves, which is "Palestinians" which still to a lesser degree wrongly insinuates that the Arabs are the Palestinians. IMO any pushing for the term "Palestinian people" has a clear agenda. Itzse 21:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no preference on PP vs Ps, a rose by any other name ..., although if "Palestinian Arab" is objectionable to some, I think we should listen to them; I don't really follow how nonusage of "PAs" denies Jews their nationality. But is it out of place to note that Israel has had no objection to and has itself used the phrase "Palestinian people" in legal documents for a long time? - since the Camp David Accords - and it also appears in the Letters of Mutual Recognition. Begin objected to "Palestinian People" at the last minute, but what he wanted and got was merely the second word uncapitalized (see R Ben Cramer's How Israel Lost). Considering Wikipedia's capitalization conventions, this seems meaningless for us. By the way, Mencken used to call himself and his fellows inhabitants "Baltimorons" - I thought G-dett might like that (and is the real reason I made this comment). John Z 08:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
[OUTDENT] Firstly, ease in finding the page clearly isn't a factor in the debate to move the page. Secondly, "Palestinians" is a proper plural noun that clearly refers to the group of people that identify with the Palestinian nationalism, whereas "Palestinian" could either be a proper singular noun or an adjective. Nobody suggests changing the article to "Palestinian" (singular), which could, in Tiamut's pathetic argument, "be used as an adjective for everything." There can be no confusion about what is meant by the article title "Palestinians" (plural). Thirdly, nobody denies that the Palestinians are a collective nationality. All we are saying is that the Palestinians are not an ethnic/racial "people," and that the article title "Palestinian people" unjustly implies that they are. Rashid Khalidi, James L. Gelvin, and several other historians in the "Origins of Palestinian identity" section all support this historical fact. It is time that the article title also reflected the same reality. -- GHcool 18:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but I do not feel my example supports that point. Is there an article for "Americans"? No. so then there is no such usage of that term. My point was only that "American people" is a commonly-used phrase, and refers only to political affilitation, and not to any ethnicity at all. I realize it is not a major point, but I do feel it is of at least some relevance. -- Steve, Sm8900 17:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is for comments regarding the page move. Opinions on the Palestinians do not belong here. This is section of the talk page should only be about the requested move and Wikipedia policy in compliance with
Wikipedia:Requested moves. --
GHcool
21:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 11:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm done with this issue. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that User:Stemonitis read the wrong debate. It might take longer than most of Wikipedia hoped, but the brilliance of Wikipedia is that it can correct its own mistakes and through guidelines. -- GHcool 17:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Stemonitis, can you please be specific and explain what kind of consensus you were looking for? Itzse 18:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hypothetical editor: but don't you see how unfair that is? and don't you see how that violates the principles here?
Sorry, but that is how consensus is defined according to Wikpedia precendents. -- Steve, Sm8900 13:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
it is getting a bit hard to tell where people stand on this issue topic in general. I would like to suggest that everyone please go to the "Poll" section (which I renamed), and post your response to the poll there, if you have not already done so, that way, we can get an accurate sense and an accurate count of whether people here agree or not. Again, as you may realize, I think we should use that section for poll responses only. if you want to make comments or discussions, please do so in another section. thanks. -- Steve, Sm8900 18:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Itzse, please stop placing G-Dett's comment in the poll section. Editors should decide for themselves whether they want to continue participating in this process or not. They should also select for themselves how they want to phrase their vote (rather than having you decide which of their comments is indeed a vote). Please try to understand that there is an issue of process here as well. Tiamat 19:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
You know, if the Jew article was at Jewish people, I'd be working pretty hard to get it moved to "Jew", because that kind of wordy nonsense helps no-one. It's sad to see yet another example of people using ideology and personal animus as a reason to do what's worse for Wikipedia, not better. Jayjg (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody mentioned that an admin "closed" this argument. I don't remember that ever happening. Could someone show me where it happened? The most I remember is that an admin said that there was not currently a consensus, which is not the same as closing an entire argument. Rather, it is encouragement for more argument until a consensus is found. -- GHcool 22:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Tewfik, would you care to join me in discussing the DNA section? This diff: [14] in particular. I spent hours reading the articles there to come up with a version that accurately and faithfully represented the material there to resolve an edit war with Jayjg over the issue and thought that the matter had been resolved. I find that your version is a little vague and selective in its presentation of the material. For example, you write: "The haplogroup, associated with marker M267, is a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period." This is true, but only partially. It is a marker of Arab expansion in the early medieval period when it is found in North Africa. Not Palestine. It originated in the Levant area. So your version tends to imply that its presence among Palestinians is derived from Arab dispersal of the haplogroup rather than the opposite which is that the Arabs dispersed it among others. Is there anything in particular that offends with about my version? Thanks. Tiamat
By the way, could you explain why you also restored the old version of the ancestry section in the section devoted to that discussion above? Thanks. Tiamat 19:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
"Bernard Lewis writes that, "In terms of scholarship, as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs,"[67] and that, "The rewriting of the past is usually undertaken to achieve specific political aims... in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews."[67]"
Huh? Claiming that modern Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites has nothing to do with whether the Canaanites were Arabs or not (they of course weren't), so that part is irrelevant to the article and should be removed. Funkynusayri 11:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't think of a single reason why it should be left in, so I'll remove it in some time if no one has a good argument for keeping it. Funkynusayri 12:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Those who are removing material from the article that is sourced, are asked to explain their edits here before or after doing so. These edits: [15], [16], [17], [18] remove material without explaining why. The deletion of sourced material without explanation is considered vandalism. Please engage in discussion. Thank you. Tiamat 12:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi there Armon. In this edit [19], you reverted everything I have just restored and new information I had added. I agree with the note you left in your edit summary about how Nakba Day should not be wikilinked in place of 1948 Palestinian exodus (if you notice, I added it alongside the exodus link in the culture section. I think its kind of relevant. I didn;t notice however that it was already there, so I will take it out). I notice that you reverted out of existence some 6,000 bytes of sourced material unrelated to that issue. Would you care to explain your edit? Thank you. Tiamat 15:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tewfik. In this edit [20], you deleted about 6,200 bytes of sourced material. Would you care to explain your edit summary and its relationship to the material you deleted? Thank you. Tiamat 16:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Hi Jayjg. In this edit [21] you deleted about 6,200 bytes of sourced material. Would you care to discuss? as per your edit summary? If this has to do with this ancestry section, could you respond in that section to my comments there? and refrain from combining issues by isolating the material in that section for restoration or removal as such should be the case? Thanks. Tiamat 16:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Now to respond to Tewfik and Jayjg. Anyone who seriously reviews the edits on this page will see that your descriptions are unfair and inaccurate. I consider your editing style here to be disruptive. I have constantly taken your objections into account, have attempted to engage in substantive discussion only to stonewalled and reverted. I have found better and better sources, more and more experts, only to have you delete them or disqualify them for various reasons. I think we need yet another RfC on this matter. Tiamat 16:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, your revert deleted over 6,000 bytes of material. That includes the four edits above [22], [23], [24], [25] that I had restored, while posting that section to ask people to explain their deletions. It also includes new edits that have nothing to do with the stuff we discussed. I have asked you time and time again to be selective in your editing. To try to isolate specific problems. Instead, you have used every opportunity to smear my editing and research skills. Your descriptions are completely unfair and uncivil and your actions are doing nothing to build consensus. Please focus. Tiamat 16:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This is the diff where Jayjg deletes the material in question [26], (which Armon and Tewfik also deleted before him), let's take a look at some of what has been removed:
1) In his 1997 book, Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness, Rashid Khalidi [8] states that the archaeological strata that denote the history of Palestine - encompassing the biblical, Roman, Byzantine, Umayyad, Fatimid, Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluk and Ottoman periods - form part of the identity of the modern-day Palestinian people, as they have come to understand it over the last century.<ref name=Khalidip18>{{cite book|title=Palestinian Identity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness|publisher=[[Columbia University Press]]|year=1997|page=18|isbn=0231105142}}</ref>
2)<ref name=WKhalidi>{{cite book|title=Before Their Diaspora|author=Walid Khalidi|publisher=Institute for Palestine Studies, Washington D.C.|year=1984|page=32}} Walid Khalidi echoes this view stating that Palestinians in Ottoman times were "[a]cutely aware of the distinctiveness of Palestinian history..." and that "[a]lthough proud of their Arab heritage and ancestry, the Palestinians considered themselves to be descended not only from Arab conquerors of the seventh century but also from indigenous peoples who had lived in the country since time immemorial, including the ancient Hebrews and the Canaanites before them.</ref>
3) In 1922, the British authorities over Mandate Palestine proposed a draft constitution which would have granted the Palestinian Arabs representation in a Legislative Council. The Palestine Arab delegation rejected the proposal noting that "the People of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration [Balfour] as a basis for discussion" and that the relegation of Palestine to a British "colony of the lowest order" was unacceptable.<ref>{{cite web|title=Correspondence with the Palestine Arab Delegation and the Zionist Organization|publisher=United Nations (original from ''His Majesty's Stationery Office'')|date=21 February 1922|accessdate=08.01.2007|url=http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0145a8233e14d2b585256cbf005af141/48a7e5584ee1403485256cd8006c3fbe!OpenDocument]}}</ref>
4) For example, Said Nafa, a self-identified "Palestinian Druze" serves as the head of the Balad party's national council and founded the "Pact of Free Druze" in 2001, an organization that aims "to stop the conscription of the Druze and claims the community is an inalienable part of the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian nation at large."<ref>{{cite web|title=Balad's MK-to-be: 'Anti-Israelization' Conscientious Objector|author=Yoav Stern & Jack Khoury|publisher=[[Haaretz]]|date=2 May 2007|accessdate=07.29.2007|url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/854636.html}}</ref>
5) {{main|Palestinian literature}}
6) R.A. Stewart Macalister, in his work ''The Excavation of Gezer'' (1912), notes that {{cquote|... the division into periods [of Palestinian pottery] is to some extent a necessary evil, in that it suggests a misleading idea of discontinuity - as though the periods were so many water-tight compartments with fixed partitions between them. In point of fact, each period shades almost imperceptibly into the next.<ref name=Macalister131>{{cite book|title=The Excavation of Gezer: 1902 - 1905 and 1907 - 1909|author=R.A. Stewart Macalister|publisher=John Murray, Albemarle Street West, London|year=1912|url=http://www.case.edu/univlib/preserve/Etana/excavation_of_gezer_v2/title.pdf|page=131}}</ref>}}
7) Although various tribes from the Arabian peninsula had migrated into Palestine as early as the 3rd millennium BC,<ref name="Lewis2002p17">{cite book|title=''The Arabs in History''|author=Bernard Lewis|year=2002|publisher=Oxford University Press, USA, 6th ed.|page=17}}</ref>
8) "Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan..." Interestingly this is from Kunstel and Albright, who are still used in the version being restored but just this sentence is being deleted.
Is this unreliably sourced material and original research? No. Are any of the editors here willing to act in good faith? That's a question that they will have to answer. Tiamat 17:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
If you'd like comments on above items, here are mine. Let me know if this is useful or you'd rather I stay out.
Items 1 and 2) Seems plausible, maybe missing quote mark. I guess one question would be how well each Khalidi has done the necessary homework in backing up the claims about Palestinian identity formation. However, item (1) is also a bit confusing, seems like it might be a Foucaultian discourse/identity analysis that may need a fair amount of unpacking for a mere encyclopedia entry. I see that it leads off a section, which I think is confusing. Better to start with a general statement about how the origins of Palestinian identity are contested, both because identity formation itself is an arena of scholarly dispute and because of the perceived political stakes. Then roughly sketch two (or more) opposing views. Then start with one or the other view. (Side point -- The text has a Khalidi quote set up the other side, so as to refute it, which is a bit tendentious, esp since it doesn't identify who he is arguing against.)
3) Interesting info but worded somewhat POV, i.e., odd how terms "relegation" and "unacceptable" are dropped. What's the full original quote?
4) Druze. I suppose this statement needs to be properly contextualized as a minority viewpoint among Druze. If necessary, it could be added to footnote.
7) 8) Does Lewis call it Palestine for that era? (3000 BCE) Or is the writing pushing a particular viewpoint here regarding what gets to be called Palestine/ian?
Don't see the problem with #8. Later: Ok, I see that the Canaanite issue has been debated above. In current version, the quote has been reinserted near top of Ancestry section. But it would be better to put it near the paragraph where the Canaanite issue is raised, and the mainstream and dissenting positions are discussed.
Thanks, good luck to all working on such controversial issues! HG | Talk 21:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
GHcool, you've added this twice now :
"Khalidi refutes the claim that the Palestinians are an ancient people as a national myth created by " Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others ... in the mid- or late 1960s." [9]"
The quote from R. Khalidi on page 149 of his book reads:
...there is mainstream secular Palestinian nationalism, grouped together under the umbrella of the PLO and represented for the past three decades by a variety of constituent organizations including Fateh, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), and others. These group, which have probably represented the views of a majority of Palestinians since some time in the mid- or -late 1960s, emerge from a relatively recent tradition which argues that Palestinian nationalism has deep historical roots. As with other national movements, extreme advocates of this view go further than this, and anachronistically read back into the history of Palestine over the past few centuries, and even millenia, a nationalist consciousness and identity that are in fact relatively modern.
As you can see, Khalidi is talking about Palestinian nationalism or a nationalist consciousness and identity as not having ancient roots, and not the Palestinians themselves. Like other societies under colonial or imperial rule, Palestinian nationalism and a unique Palestinian identity emerged only in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This does not mean that the people who now call themselves Palestinian were not there earlier or do not have ancient origins. Your formulation distorts the meaning of Khalidi's text. Tiamat 00:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
(editconflict):Though it really should be up to you to make sure your additions properly represent the sources cited after you have been alerted to it by another editor who places a notice here with the specific item so as to get your attention and your reply, I went ahead and reformulated the addition, per the source and placed it another part of that section, where it flows better (being about the PLO and being largely chronological in organization there.) I hope it meets with your satisfaction. Tiamat 01:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's try to state the points of disagreement between Khalidi and Gelvin. It sounds like they both agree that Palestinian national identity originated in the modern period, with mildy different dates (Khalidi dating it to the late 19th C. and Gelvin to the early/mid 20th C.). They differ mainly on the cause, Khalidi relying more on the diffusion of nationalist discourse and Gelvin on a reaction formation to Zionism. After Gelvin, "The idea of a unique Palestinian state..." and following paragraphs seem to argue about the extent to which Palestinian identity has developed in contradistinction to Arab identity. (The evidence is given chronologically, but the article doesn't explain the point it's trying to make.) Towards the end of the section, the topic shifts a bit to how identity has been contested since 1948. Frankly, the writing is a bit evidence-heavy and doesn't tell the reader what to glean from section. I suppose that's a byproduct of POV disputes, so o.k. HG | Talk 01:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Made a series of small edits to help readers follow the points in this section. Sorry for so many edits, but given the tension here, thought it would be better to disaggregate each move w/edit summary explanations. I tried not to change any information or weigh in on your content disputes. However, I wasn't quite sure how to handle the following two blocks of text:
The PLO was recognized as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by the Arab states in 1974 and was granted observer status as a national liberation movement by the United Nations that same year.[1][17] Israel rejected the resolution, calling it "shameful".[18] In a speech to the Knesset, Deputy Premier and Foreign Minister Allon outlined the government's view that : "No one can expect us to recognize the terrorist organization called the PLO as representing the Palestinians - because it does not. No one can expect us to negotiate with the heads of terror-gangs, who through their ideology and actions, endeavour to liquidate the State of Israel."[18]
In 1977, the United Nations General Assembly created the "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People", an annual observance on November 29.[20]
How do these paragraphs speak to the topic of how Palestinian identity originated/developed? Forgive me if I'm being dense. I'm not disputing the content. Maybe somebody could add sentence(s) to tell the reader what to infer from this evidence about Palestinian identity? If not, maybe these need to be omitted or moved to History of Palestine? Thanks. HG | Talk 02:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the paragraph after the Gelvin quote, Tiamut said in her edit summary: "it shouldn't say supporting Gelvin's view. The evidence is from Khalidi's book - and the nationalism isn't "tied to" Zionism, it's co-present with." Ok, fair enough. Gelvin could take this data as supporting evidence (Khalidi as our source is irrelevant) whereas Khalidi could say that the nationalism was already well underway. Do we want to explain to our readers about the dual interpretation of 1900-1920 data? Nah, let's just say that, with either interpretation, Palestinian national identity was apparent at that time period. Ok? HG | Talk 03:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
What do folks think of adding subheadings to the Origins section? How about The emergence of Palestinian national identity Such as The relevance of modern nationalism and Zionism to Palestinian identity then Between Arab and Palestinian identities (1900 - 1967) then Recent developments in Palestinian identity (1967 - present). Also, am I right that this section should focus on identity formation, with political history as secondary? If so, then political history (whichever viewpoint) should be omitted if it doesn't serve as grounds/evidence about identity, right? Thanks.
HG |
Talk
12:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sub-headings sound like a good idea and the ones you have proposed are a great start. I should also mention that I went through the article, added things that were deleted that are reliably sourced and cited. I also removed one bit of prose by you that I felt didn't really add anything to the section. Good work though on making it flow better and improving the clarity to the reader. I generally agree with you that material in that section should focus around identity. However, I think the PLO information is important, as well as Israel's rejection of their recognition. It speaks directly to the issue of Palestinian identity since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people. I guess that what I'm saying is that political representation is related to identity, particularly in this case since these bodies define Palestinian identity for a largely diaspora people. Tiamat 12:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, want to ask about the reasons for some of your changes in the paragraph about Khalidi. You deleted the suggested opening: "Historians disagree about the timing and causes of Palestinian national identity." You also revised so that he is arguing about "the modern national identity." So, I gather you do not want to distinguish between a Palestinian "national identity" and any other kind of identity. Is that right? If so, do you think that Khalidi himself agrees with you? Or are you disputing with Khalidi as you describe his views?
HG |
Talk
13:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Next item. Jayjg restored this as a lead sentence (bold added): "The Israeli capture of the Gaza Strip and West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War prompted existing but fractured Palestinian political and militant groups to give up any remaining hope they had placed in pan-Arabism and to rally around the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), (which was founded in 1964), to organize efforts to establish an independent Palestinian state." Two reactions. First, in context, the point of this sentence is in bold, that the Arabism discussed previously was now given up. Therefore, I would break this sentence so it ends nicely with this point. Plus, the next clause actually is a contrast -- what did they do without pan-Arabism -- which is why I would begin it with "Instead, they rallied...." I don't think this changes the meaning, only the style. Ok, Jayjg? Second, I personally feel that a simpler lead-in would help some readers. Why? Because the point of the whole paragraph is that pan-Arabism gave way to identifying with or self-naming via Palestinian nationalism. Does that make sense, even if the wordsmithing isn't there yet? HG | Talk 15:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This entire article, specifically the section entitled: DNA Clues is in need of serious copyediting. Anyone care to take a crack at it? Notecardforfree 03:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I've cleaned it up. Jayjg (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Really? I think you should look at it again. Here is the diff that compares your latest edits to the DNA section with the edit Tewfik made a while ago: [28]. Here is the diff where you make this wholesale reversion of the DNA section (and the ancestry section) [29]. What did you keep? A set of brackets and a fix to the spacing? Tiamat 14:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we get back on task. How might we improve this section. (1) I'd again suggest an opening somehow indicates that main points to be covered in this section. Do you agree? (2) Whether or not you agree about the lead, please say what you believe to be the main points (e.g., three pts) and the order they should be made. You don't have to express the points perfectly, though it helps even here if it sounds neutral. Ok? HG | Talk 15:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Here' my proposal for a draft copy to work on. There are footnotes in here that are text as well, so take a look at them when you go to edit the page. Comments and sugestions on what to add or remove are welcome:
Studies in the field of genetics and genetic genealogy make comparisons with the historical record as it regards the populations under study, contributing to scholarship on human ancestral origins.
Results of a DNA haplotype study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim were reported by Science Now to match historical accounts that "some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times." [10] [11]
Other haplotype studies have explored the prevalence of specific
inherited genetic differences among populations allowing for the relatedness of these populations to be determined and their ancestry to be traced back through
population genetics. These also suggest that, at least paternally, most of the various
Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians — and in some cases other
Levantines — are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians to the original Arabs of Arabia or [European] Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.
[12]
[13]
[14]
[15]Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
More recent studies focusing on haplogroup types have concluded that "Arab and other Semitic populations usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J". [16] [17]
Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) (previously known as J-M267 and Eu10) is one of two main sub-clades of the wider Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) group, thought to be the haplogroup of Semitic-speaking peoples in the Middle East. [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Haplogroup J2-M127 is thought to be a genetic marker of the Phoenicians, the term used to refer to Canaanites after 1200 BCE. [30]
Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins exhibit the highest rates of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (Semino et al., 2004, pp 1029) (55.2% and 65.6% respectively),and the highest frequency of the J1 sub-clade (38.4% and 62.5% respectively) among all groups tested. [23]
The J1 (or J1-M267) sub-clade is more common throughout the Levant itself, including Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon with decreasing frequencies northward to Turkey and the Caucasus, while J2-M172 (its sister clade) is more abundant in adjacent southern areas such as Somalia, Egypt, and Oman. [24] Frequency decreases with distance from the Levant in all directions, reinforcing this region as the most probable origin of its dispersions (Semino et al. 1996; Rosser et al. 2000; Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). [24]
According to Semino et al. (2004), J-M267 (i.e. J1) was brought to Northeast Africa and Europe from the Middle East in late Neolithic times; whereas its presence in the southern part of the Middle East and in Northwest Africa was brought by a second wave, most likely Arabs who mainly from the 7th century A.D. onward expanded into northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002). [23](See also J1 Haplogroup frequencies: [31]) Tiamat 16:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Tiamut: I gave my ideas for the 3 points for this section above. It was deleted accidentally, please look and respond to it. Maybe it will be helpful. HG | Talk 17:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sounds like you'd still like feedback. First, purely as a matter of style, I cringe at reading sentences here about haplothingies, subclades, and JM747s. Let's imagine I'm a smart US high school or college student, but not in the sciences. You're reading the article and suddenly you are hit with sentences that began as above, some with completely unfamiliar (grammatical) subjects and objects. Do I have to shift from reading an encyclopedia to reading a scientific journal? You need to tell the reader what you are explaining, bring it down to terms for an audience who groks the rest of the article, and don't make me draw the inferences... tell me clearly at the outset and afterwards what key points I've learned. Second, you are writing partly for a skeptical audience. So you need to persuade them that the evidence backs up the claims. Draw the reader in -- explain how the evidence works and then how it adds up to adds up to genetic-genealogy findings. Ok. Third. Now comes the tricky part, you want to let the scientists interpret their data within a historiographical context. Your readers are going to be even MORE skeptical. Why should geneticists making historical claims? Don't skip this step! Address the doubt, make some concession or explanation to assuage the doubt about the author's standing. With you and Jayjg bickering, I don't know that either of you have the frame of mind for this step. Maybe qualify it strongly: "Interpreting their genetics analysis, some scientists have gone so far as to claim XYZ and ZYX. These historical claims have been picked up by the popular media and some pro-Palestinian circles. However, the jury is still out on whether such claims will resonate among historical scholars." Of course, this shouldn't be about personalities. But if you keep pushing the third step, and Jayjg keeps pushing back, you'll sabotage productive work on the whole section. HG | Talk 18:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree entirely with HG on this point, as providing straight technical discussion will be unhelpful for the majority of readers. That said, we have to be careful in how we vulgarise the text so that we are still only representing the science without inserting our own biases. On that note, my objection is the same as before, that a general discussion of topics like J is replacing specific discussion of its relevance to Palestinians. Tewfik Talk 20:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Pottery found in Palestine is not the same thing as Palestinian pottery. It would be pure revisionism to try to claim, for example, that pottery produced by Canaanites in 12th century BCE was "Palestinian pottery", in the modern sense of Palestinian. Please make sure that material is relevant to this specific article, which is Palestinian people, not ancient Palestine. Jayjg (talk) 13:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The source says "Palestinian pottery". It's not OR to term it as such if that's what the source says. I've quoted the relevant section at the main page for that article. See Talk:Palestinian pottery. Please stop trying to change sources to read as you would like them to read, rather than as they actually do. Tiamat 13:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The source says on page 75:
Modern Palestinian pots, bowls, jars, jugs, and cups are similar in shape to their ancient equivalents and show how persistently the potter's craft clung to tradition through the centuries. Fabric and decoration also recall ancient methods; the clay is of much the same composition and is shaped, smoothed, and baked in the same way..."
And on and on. Needler uses "Palestinian pottery" to refer to modern pottery produced by Palestinians and ancient pottery produced at other times in the region. This is not ahistorical revisionism. The text is dated to 1949. Needler is the Deputy Keeper of the Near Eastern Department at the Royal Ontario Museum of Archaeology and the book is entitled: "Palestine: Ancient and Modern". Please explain why I should ignore what a reliable source says and go with you WP:OR opinion. Tiamat 14:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The section currently reads:
Modern pots, bowls, jugs and cups produced by Palestinians, particularly those produced prior to the 1940s, are similar in shape, fabric and decoration to their ancient equivalents.[57] Cooking pots, jugs, mugs and plates that are still hand-made and fired in open, charcoal-fuelled kilns as in ancient times in historic villages like al-Jib (Gibeon), Beitin (Bethel) and Senjel.[58]
Notice anything wrong there? Like bad grammar for one.
My version read:
Palestinian pottery shows a remarkable continuity throughout the ages. Modern Palestinian pots, bowls, jugs and cups, particularly those produced prior to the establishment of Israel in 1948, are similar in shape, fabric and decoration to their ancient equivalents.[57] R.A. Stewart Macalister, in his work The Excavation of Gezer (1912), notes that
“ ... the division into periods [of Palestinian pottery] is to some extent a necessary evil, in that it suggests a misleading idea of discontinuity - as though the periods were so many water-tight compartments with fixed partitions between them. In point of fact, each period shades almost imperceptibly into the next.[58] ”
Traditional pottery, including cooking pots, jugs, mugs and plates that are still hand-made and fired in open, charcoal-fueled kilns as in ancient times in historic villages like al-Jib (Gibeon), Beitin (Bethel) and Senjel.[59]
Now, which one is closer to the wording of the original? Tiamat 14:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Pottery from the historic region of Palestine is not the same as pottery produced within the modern Palestinian identity. Please don't use ambiguous language to conflate unrelated concepts. Tewfik Talk 20:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is about Palestinians, not ancient Canaanites, or even ancient Palestine. There have been persistent attempts to insert revisionist history implying that ancient Canaanites were actually Palestinians in the modern sense, something even Palestinian historians don't claim. Please stop inserting sentences like "Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan", which have nothing to do with modern Palestinians, and which come from a book not even written by historians, but rather by journalists. It's bad enough we're including material from non-historians, let's not compound the problem. Jayjg (talk) 13:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
You are ignoring that other editors have agreed that Kunstel and Albright's work should be included with the other Canaanite material. In your latest wholesale revision (of only 2,000 bytes this time) you also deleted this (among other things) :
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
It comes from a Nebel et al. (2000) study in journal of Human Genetics.
Why do you keep deleting reliably sourced information relevant to the topic of Palestinian ancestry? Tiamat 13:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
"According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
"Whitelam's book has several obvious flaws, which undercut to some degree the valuable point he is making. The Canaanites of the Bronze Age were not "Palestinians." The name Palestine comes from the Philistines, who were no more indigenous than the biblical Israelites (and probably less so than the historical Israelites). The modern Palestinians are descended neither from Canaanites nor from the Philistines, but are Arabs, who emerged as a people of this land well into the Common Era. To speak of the history of the ancient Canaanites as "Palestinian history," then, is misleading, and offers too facile a continuum between the ancient story and modern situation. Neither is it fair to accuse Biblical scholarship of silencing Palestinian history, or even Canaanite history... Finally Whitelam risks reducing his thesis ad absurdum when he tries to explain all modern theories of the origin of Israel by Zionist sympathies... Whitelam's implication of a vast web of Zionist sympathy, embracing everyone from Albright to Finkelstein, smacks of paranoia." John Joseph Collins, The Bible After Babel: Historical Criticism in a Postmodern Age, page 66.
"There need be no doubt, of course, of Whitelam's own values. They are indicated repeatedly by his identification of the Canaanites of the Late Bronze Age as Palestinians. This identification is problematic in several respects. It is anachronistic, and the sense that the land was not called Palestine in the Late Bronze Age - the name in fact come from the Philistines, who were invading the land at approximately the same time as the Israelites (if the Israelites were indeed invading). The modern Arab Palestinians only emerged as the people of this land well into the Common Era. The ancient Canaanites are of no genetic relevance to the modern Palestinians; at most they provide a historical analogy." John Joseph Collins, "The Politics of Biblical Interpretation", Encounter with Biblical Theology, p. 42.
"...in 1996 Keith W. Whitelam... published a much more radical and provocative statement: The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History. In this manifesto, the overtly ideological and political agenda of the revisionist was made explicit. Not only had modern scholars, especially pious Christians and Zionist Israelis, "invented" their Israels, but in the process they had dispossessed the Palestinians, the real native people of the region, of their history... But even those sympathetic with his anti-Israel rhetoric have pointed out that the Palestinians of the present conflict were not present in ancient Palestine. They did not emerge as a "people" at all until relatively modern times. Not only is this bad historical method, it is dishonest scholarship. And it unnecessarily drags politics into Near Eastern archaeology..." William G. Dever, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?, pp. 138-139.
Thanks for giving these excerpts, Jayjg and Nadav. Based on these sources, it is clear that there is a notable view to be put in the entry -- notable not as good scholarship, but nevertheless "percolating" and published. So, let's agree on (1) this non-mainstream opinion belongs in the article, and (2) we need to figure out how to characterize this evidence. Do you guys agree with these 2 points? Forget about Tiamut's specific edits and efforts for a minute, step back and tell me this: What kind of qualifying yet NPOV language would you accept to describe the kind of [IYO scientifically indefensible] views that some Palestinians believe? HG | Talk 19:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you base your determination that this is a "fringe" theory on Nadav? Tiamat 19:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. Tiamut... Did I miss something? Of course, I don't know the whole history of Talk on this topic. Let me ask you 2 questions. (1) How would you characterize the thesis in a neutral tone, whether for this or a separate article? (2) Could you accept a separate article, per Nadav's suggestion? Regardless, how would you title a relevant subsection or article on the thesis? HG | Talk 20:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
:Geez, who cares. let her put in her text and sources. then you put in some of your text and sources, saying "somepeople dispute these claims." does that sound so hard? upon further reflection, I realize my comment makes it sound like I am discounting HG's valuable effort at mediation. So i don't want it to appear like i am suggesting that tiamat should not answer such reasonable, useful questions. thanks. --
Steve, Sm8900
20:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg -- If you don't mind, what's your response to the 2 q's. (1) Agree that some role of the thesis in the article. (2) How would you characterize the thesis in article-suitable prose? Also, you agree w/Nadav's proposal for a separate article? HG | Talk 20:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's my suggestion:
there are some analysts who assert that palestinians have some ancestry among ancient Canaanites. there are other experts who assert that such studies are wholly driven by politics, and have no factual basis whatsoever.
hope that helps. -- Steve, Sm8900 21:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Could people actually look at this diff: [33]. In the Ancestry section there, the version on the left is what I proposed to deal with this issue. On the subject of Canaanites, it reads:
The claim that Palestinians are direct descendants of the region's earliest inhabitants, the Canaanites, has been put forward by some authors. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, author-journalists, write that:
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan ... Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes." [2]
In her review of their work, Kathleen Christison notes that they are "those rare historians who give credence to the Palestinians' claim that their 'origins and early attachment to the land' derive from the Canaanites five millenia ago, and that they are an amalgamation of every people who has ever lived in Palestine." [25]
In the journal Science, it was reported that "most Palestinian archaeologists were quick to distance themselves from these ideas," and some of those interviewed expressed their view that the issue of who was in Palestine first was an ideological issue that lay outside of the realm of archaeological study. [26] Khaled Nashef, the director of the Palestinian Institute for Archaeology, emphasized the importance of developing the nascent Palestinian archaeological school, arguing that, "Archaeology here has concentrated on historical events or figures important to European or Western tradition. This may be important, but it doesn't provide a complete picture of how local people lived here in ancient times." [26] Bernard Lewis writes that, "In terms of scholarship, as distinct from politics, there is no evidence whatsoever for the assertion that the Canaanites were Arabs," [27] and that, "The rewriting of the past is usually undertaken to achieve specific political aims... in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise and possession put forward by the Jews." [27]
Isn't this a fair formulation? If not, what is specifically wrong with it? Tiamat 21:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I just thought I would editors know that I will be taking a wikibreak (from this article in particular) for a little bit since I have real-life editing to do on a book for a professor and this has been diverting my energies from there for too long now. I hope that when I come back, some industrious editors will have made improvements to the ancestry and DNA sections as they are are currently poorly composed and inaccurate (the diffs I have provided above and the draft for the DNA section might be useful to those who wish to do some integrative work. I have tried to correct those problems myself, but since there is resistance by selected editors to the versions I have proposed, I don't want to engage in edit wars to restore the information as is (even though I believe that everything there is adequately sourced and cited and gives a rather fair treatment of the issues involved). I'll be looking it over when I have the time and come back with some new ideas and improvements of my own. I appreciate the comments and suggestions on how to break this deadlock. Happy editing. Tiamat 14:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
During the period of the Mandate, the Zionist Organization worked to secure the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. The indigenous people of Palestine, whose forefathers had inhabited the land for virtually the two preceding millenia, felt this design to be a violation of their natural and inalienable rights. They also viewed it as an infringement of assurances of independence given by the Allied Powers to Arab leaders in return for their support during their war. The result was mounting resistance to the Mandate by Palestinian Arabs, followed by resort to violence by the Jewish community as the Second World War drew to a close.
...the chief ideologue of the Zionists, Borochov, claimed that Palestinian Arabs had no crystallized national consciousness of their own, and would likely be assimilated into the new Hebraic nationalism, precisely because, in his view, "the fellahin are considered in this context as the descendants of the ancient Hebrew and Canaanite residents 'together with a small admixture of Arab blood'".29 Similarly Ahad Ha’am wrote that "the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land…who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam".30 In 1918, David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, writing in Yiddish, tried to establish that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life constitute the living historical testimony to Israelite practices in the biblical period. But the ideological implications of this claim became very problematic and were soon withdrawn from circulation.31
Tiamat 12:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The Passing of Traditional Society" by Dr. Ali Qleibo [34]. This perspective is important to the article in that it discusses how identity is self-constructed and fluid:
Identity – whether personal or collective, individual or cultural – is fiction; a construction and merely a codification of past events, real or imaginary. Identity is first and foremost a discursive narrative that validates the present by selecting events, characters, and moments in time as formative beginnings.
He continues, describing Palestinian self-perceptions as influenced by Islam:
In Palestine, Moslem historiography has assigned the advent of Islam, seventh century AD, as the beginning of Palestinian cultural identity. Pagan origins are disavowed. As such the peoples that populated Palestine throughout history have discursively rescinded their own history and religion as they adopted the religion, language, and culture of Islam.
He then puts forward his opinion as an anthropologist that:
The diversity of the customs and manners of the Palestinian social landscape bears witness to the multiplicity of the early Semitic peoples’ ancient waves of migration and settlement in the various regions of the land of Canaan. Research demonstrates that mosques in the countryside are modern phenomena. Until the end of the nineteenth century, in lieu of mosques, people turned to local patron saints, each of whom had his own maqam, the typical domed single room in the shadow of an ancient carob or oak tree. Each village has its own narrative that describes its holy man, his special grace with God (karamat), his power of intercession (shafa’at), and the miraculous context in which the maqam was built … Holy men, awlia’Allah, were the centre of religious life at a time when the absolute transcendent other was deemed unreachable. These saints, tabooed by orthodox Islam, mediated between man and the Supreme One. Saints’ shrines and holy men’s memorial domes dot the Palestinian landscape – an architectural testimony to Christian/ Moslem Palestinian religious sensibility and its roots in ancient Semitic religions.
It continues on in greater detail. A lot of this last part might be useful in the religion section since it is a local form of religious worship. (Shahin discusses it in her book Palestine: A Guide as well). Tiamat 15:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Urban centres and peasant and Bedouin communities date back thousands of years - to the early beginnings of the nascent Canaanite city-states. The Bedouins did not suddenly burst forth from the Arabian Peninsula, and the peasants are not simply a step in the social evolutionary ladder to urbanization. Rather through time the Palestinians, who are descendants of the ancient civilizations of the Near East, have diversified economic tactics in overlapping ecological zones. Over the past four millennia, the native Palestinian population has developed socially strategic adaptive tools of survival within an extremely harsh ecological system.
Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into Palestine as their homeland: Jebusites, Canaanites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabateans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and European crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and Mongols, were historical “events” whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes.
The Philistines fade into oblivion after the fifth century BC. The Nabateans survived through Roman Palestine. Herodia, the mother of Salome, was Nabatean. Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity - albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture.
No other anthropological sources have been presented that contest this view. The hubbub that ensued based on the notion that the premise that Palestinians are the descendants of earlier populations who settled in Palestine is a fringe one, seems to heavily misplaced. Tiamat 10:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
"Defines" means they define it now; "defined" means they defined it then. The second part of this paragraph states that the most recent draft of the Palestinian constitution now includes those that weren’t included forty years ago; hence "defines" is wrong and "defined" is correct. Itzse 17:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Much of the introduction is based on the Palestinian view of themselves. The Palestine national charter and the constitution for a State of Palestine are POV of how the Palestinians want to view themselves. It has no place in a neutral Encyclopedia, and if for completeness it has to be quoted then it must be clearly labeled and not part of the introduction. Itzse 19:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't self-definition a key component of nationhood or peoplehood? Or is Palestinian a "race" that you either belong to or don't? The subject of the article is the Palestinian people, as distinct from Israelis, Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. We go by the definitions used by the people themselves to determine who is or is not a part of those identities, because identity is constructed, not inherent or innate. Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect and that definition. Tiamat 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Please Itzse, spare me. How does the sub-heading "Palestinian views on Palestinians" make the article more NPOV [35]? It's totally redundant. I retained your insertion of the newer source for the proposed draft constitution of the state of Palestine and formatted it and accept the new quote. But the other changes were not improvements. Tiamat 22:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't self-definition a key component of nationhood or peoplehood? Or is Palestinian a "race" that you either belong to or don't? The subject of the article is the Palestinian people, as distinct from Israelis, Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. We go by the definitions used by the people themselves to determine who is or is not a part of those identities, because identity is constructed, not inherent or innate. Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect and that definition. Tiamat 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody agree with Steve and Tiamut that the Palestinians get to write and define who they are, and the article should be the point of view of the Palestinians? Itzse 20:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
If you are sincere in de-personalizing our discussion, it would help if you stop agreeing with Steve who agrees with Tiamut one hundred percent; and take this discussion on its merits. I do not appreciate the tone in your comments; I find them tendentious; frankly I find you in cahoots with them, which you have, a right; but don't pretend otherwise.
Let's see if we can have a discussion of substance instead of obfuscation such as: "I agree 100% with ...", "My opinion is ... what I stated above", "I support ...".
You state that: "(Hence, the PLO definition is useful in demonstrating how Palestinians identify themselves. This is because the PLO can be "objectively" shown, by non-Palestinian sources, to be a notable and significant source of representation for Palestinians.)"
Are you saying that their changing the definition of who is a Palestinian, can be "objectively" shown by non-Palestinian sources? Whom are you kidding?
You state that: "(without insisting on equal footing within the intro, for WP Policy reasons stated above)."
Where do you see such a WP policy? Please read again
WP:NCON 4.1.1. which states that "Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name." It states explicitly that it applies to the name. Where do you read that it extends to the article? Are you really suggesting that WP policy states that one POV gets to define itself because the article is about them and they have a right to self-identifying?
You state that: "Granted, the article might refer somewhere to other definitions, or critiques of the mainstream self-identifying definition, whether by Palestinians or Israelis or anyone, as long as fringe viewpoints are not given undue weight."
Your granting that the article might refer somewhere to other definitions, is really very nice of you; although you qualify it with a "might" and a "as long as fringe viewpoints are not given undue weight". What would I do without you?
You state that: "I doubt that either Steve or Tiamut are saying that editors get some kind of priority here because they are Palestinian. I think they're only saying that, per #1 above, self-identification by notable Palestinian sources is central."
Then you haven't read what they write. Tiamut writes that "Since the PLO is the official representative of the Palestinian people and its charter provides a handy definition for whom the Palestinian people view to be Palestinian, it seems logical to use and respect that definition." Do you agree with her? She also writes about me that "Your viewpoint is a fringe one. I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, but most of the world accepts that Palestinians exist and have a right to define themselves as they see fit". Do you agree with her? Steve writes that "Every ethnic group has some leeway to build its own articles as it sees fit, within certain guidelines." Do you agree with him? Eleland writes that "Extreme-minority viewpoints are generally not included in an article at all, let alone allowed to disrupt and dominate the entire narrative." Do you agree with him that the opposing view of the Palestinians is an extreme-minority viewpoint? Steve writes that he's "not sure what the dispute is here". Do you agree with him? Tiamut un-tendentiously writes that (her words) "I don't give a f-ck whether my ancestors called themselves Palestinians or not. I know what I call myself now and I know who my ancestors are and where they came from." Do you accept that?
If you find my words sarcastic; it is only because of my disappointment on this particular page where I haven't found many a true word, including your unfair involvement; but the real disappointment is of the other editors who for whatever personal reasons they have; derailed everything I tried to do, starting with summoning Stemonitis; and the disgusting silence of others. They may as well give the Palestinians everything on a golden platter. With such brothers, who needs enemies?
Itzse
20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me or is putting in "Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" as a hyperlink in a article about the Palestinian people unnessesary and kind of biast? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddytheceltic ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Ah good im happy atleast someone else noticed it. Your right to critise the person. Clearly hes ignorant and biast towards his most likely Zionist beliefs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddytheceltic ( talk • contribs) 21:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Itzse has reverted my latest edit to the article so as to remove the word nation along with a slew of other unrelated changes. I have explained my position to him on his talk page that the use of the word nation is appropriate given the many reliable sources who use the term in reference to Palestinians, some of which are cited in the intro itself. I would appreciate help from other editors in reasoning with Itzse on this issue. We have discussed the question of Palestinian nationhood or peoplehood several times, and other editors have pointed out that his view that Palestinians are not a people or nation is a fringe one. Your assistance and input are welcome. Tiamut 19:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
1) moved the paragraph on population figures and religion back to where it was after the introductory paragraph. It is more appropriate to place it there per the format of other leads on peoples or nations (See Armenian people for an example).
2) I changed "11 million" (as in your edit) to "between 10 and 11 million" since it better reflects the data in the article.
3) I replaced your version of this paragraph:
The idea that Palestinians form a distinct people is reltively recent. [28] Until the establishment of Israel, the term Palestinian was used by Jews and foreigners to describe the inhabitants of Palestine and had only begun to be used by Arabs themselves at the turn of the 20th century. [28] At the same time most saw themselves as part of the larger Arab or Muslim community. [28] The Arabs of Palestine began widely using the term Palestinian starting in the pre- World War I period to indicate the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people. [28] and the first demand for Palestinian independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [29]After 1948, and even more so after 1967 the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state. [28]
with this version:
The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I, [28] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September, 1921. [30] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but a sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state. [28]
Why? Let's see. the first two sentences of your version are already covered in the etymology section directly below the introduction rendering its inclusion here redundant. I also feel the use of endonymic (I was inspired by the Armenian article) in my version of the same material covered in the sentences following those, is useful to the reader. Further, I find my version to more concise, less repetitive, better structured (without spelling mistakes) and more in line with the overall article.
I also don't see why links to the 1948 Palestinian exodus and the 1967 Palestinian exodus are not appropriate in the lead, or as you put it in one of your edit summaries to be "gruesome details", so I reincluded them in the last sentence of your version of that paragraph above, which I retained in my edit.
I am going to reinstate this edit soon if someone else does not (which is still without the word nation and very much to my chagrin at that I might add). I don't feel you should be able to blindly revert my compromise edit and then demand that I discuss after I've made such extensive efforts. Please discuss which parts you would like to see changed before blindly reverting the edit again. Thank you for your time and have a nice night. Tiamut 22:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian state.' [28]
Now give a look at how Encyclopedia Britannica writes an article about Palestinians (tries to be fair) and Tiamut writes the article. If anybody thinks that Tiamut doesn't have an agenda and is not a POV pusher, I have no desire to go into a meaningless debate; you can choose between me and her; one of us is gotta go.
I'm taking a Wikipedia vacation and leave it up to you. Bye for now my friends. Itzse 21:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
One editor believes that the introduction of this article should reflect the fact borne out in the citations throughout the text that Palestinians are a nation. (Note that nation here is not to be confused with nation-state.) The other editor disputes idea that Palestinians are a nation and wants no mention of it in the lead.01:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
my take: the clear cut nation is arabs, palestinians are a mishmash of arabs and some ottomans (and very few others), i'm not sure on what really makes them into a nation other than them being held by the arabs as pawns (without citizenship or rights) in the arab-israeli conflict... i've seen the ottoman maps from 1860 and i honestly believe that without israel (now or in the future), there would be no palestinian "self identification" only clandish identification (iraq anyone?) within' the arab national. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a bold new experiment, a type of experiment which has never been tried on the Wikipedia and which might actually be considered unWikian in character. But I am going to propose it anyway:
It is clear to me that the two parties in this debate are not nearing any kind of agreement. While the disagreement is concentrating on a few words, it is clear that it goes much, much deeper than that. I will try to summarize it thus (correct me if I am wrong): Tiamut believes that the Palestinians are a nation, with all the characteristics of a nation. Itse believes that the Palestinians are not a nation, and that the claim to nationality is simply a political ploy in a sophisticated attempt to undermine Israel's legitimacy.
Because of this chasmic difference in POVs, there is no way that they will ever agree. The dispute goes to the very structure of the article - this argument over the word "nation" is just the tip of the iceberg.
So here is my suggestion. Itse, leave Tiamut's article alone. Write a separate article on the same topic, and give it a temporary name (Palestinian Arabs?). You both must commit to writing fairly, and to representing both viewpoints as accurately as you can. You both must commit to documenting thoroughly and being generally scholarly in approach. I realize, Itse, that Tiamut has a big headstart on you, but I think it will be worth your while.
When you have both finished, and your articles - as fair and unbiased as you can make them - are completed, let's have a public review - another RfC. Let's see if the editors of the RfC see a possibility of merging the articles, or of settling the differences. My guess is that the two articles could be combined.
But, in the event that, even after an RfC, no reconciliation is possible, I say let's leave both articles. We could write a meta-article, which would say, in effect: "Dear Wikipedia reader, here are two unreconcilable views of this topic, read them both and you will come away with a real understanding of the nature of the dispute." Under the circumstances, I think this approach - while very unencyclopedic - would best serve the users of our work. -- Ravpapa 20:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Propose - that this RfC, having been open 3 days, be closed, and that "Palestinian people" be accepted as a nation (assuming we have RSs who say that is what some believe themselves to be). I propose this on the basis that (so we're told) "peoples" are free to self-identify as "nations", and I don't see any contra-indications to this claim. PalestineRemembered 12:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Scholarly sources (besides those already listed in the article) for those hold-outs on the issue of Palestinian nationhood:
What would be the meaning of an Israeli acknowledgment-or, for that matter, an acknowledgment by the United States or other third parties-of Palestinian nationhood? Most important, nationhood implies certain attributes and rights; thus, to acknowledge that Palestinians are a nation would carry with it certain implications for issues that are currently matters of contention between the parties. (p.31)
Well, first, the definition of "nation" is problematic. Secondly, the first sentence loses nothing when the word nation is removed, so I just proceeded with that. Beit Or 18:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul Schiemann, who championed minority rights during the period between WWI and WWII, pioneered the concept of separation of nation (Volksgemeinschaft—national community) and of state (Staatsgemeinschaft—state community). "Nation" is used to denote an "ethnic/cultural nation" which does not require land; what it does (at least from my readings) require is a sense of nation, that is, a demonstrated sense of common cultural heritage, unity, and purpose; of self-identity as a community of people, etc. I should also clarify that neither does "nation" imply "nationalism" in terms of striving for territorial acquisition, political gains, etc. And I should add that "Palestinian people" (people indicating shared origin) is not a substitute for "Palestinian nation."
So, with reference to Steve, Sm8900's contention that the Palestinians are nationality but not a nation, the proper usage is reversed. "Nationality" is the term aligned with nation-state (country), not "nation". To indicate identity without implying "country-hood" one would say the Palestinians are a nation; to indicate country-hood/territory one would say anyone who is a citizen of a country "Palestine" is of Palestinian nationality.
The editors might consider leaving "nation" and inserting "(national community)" after its first use to disambiguate, and to use the unambiguous "nation-state" when referring to territory or the potential outcome of territorial aspirations. —
Pēters J. Vecrumba
I've removed "nation" for a few reasons.
<<-armon->> 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
the reference to this article-study about a possible gene flow from Africa is racist. This study is so stupid that the researcher based his conclusion on the PREMISE!! that: Since Ashkinazi Jews who (he says!?) left to Rome in the second century to Rome and Europe don't have this African female Haplogroup L1/L3 now then that means the Haplogroup did not exist in the Middle East at that time and Hence it was brought later by the Arab slave trade starting from the Arabic conquest 600 AD. Now this is unbelievable Pure racism Hatered and unscientificness ( more of stupidity), Since what scientific evidence he had that jews went to Europe? ( How do we know if this fable is not a Zionist lie). Again since that study it is found that this same Haplogroup L is found in Europe even in Scandinavia( as same percentage as in Arabic countries) So why other researchers say that it came to Europe in the Neolithic age ( 6000 Years ago) and not through slave trade?? and this L is found in West Europe but not in East Europe, so this actually another evidence that the Ashkenazi women originated from Eastern Europe and never been in the Middle East ( Arabs and South and Northwest Europe Have it!) This study is suggestive and not confirming and is based on false (very stupid) premise. I intend to remove its citation because it is also irrelevent and RACIST!02:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! and since we have no scientific evidence that Indeed Jews travelled to Rome in 120 AD, or 4 women in 100 AD traveled to Rome to join the jews ( unless if you have a photo of them on a ship with a roman name on the ship and a video recording showing the ship captain in the same frame with those jews that indeed he is sailing to Rome and a clock in the back ground showing calender of 120 AD or 1000 AD)
So this guy the author of the study says ( since jews he left palestine to rome in 120 AD brought with them their women and those women as currently reveal they don't have the N1 N3 Female haplotype, then it did not exist in the middle east by then, because if it did the jrews wiuld have wives from that same haplogroup with them)) can you see how stupid the basis of his argument on which he conclude that the Haplogroup is caused by bringing slave women from Africa After 120 AD (ie when the Arabs prevailed in 700 AD and Later) You see the craziness and biasness scientists are willing to do for a piece of bread or a bunch of coins —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.168.17.167 (
talk)
00:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The recent Genetical studies proved that the impact of Arabs on North africa ( and every where they immigrated to ) is huge ( not to mention the first immigration of the Neolithic period (Phoenicians=semitic language speaking relative of Arabs (The Aramaeans). Also recent study proved that there is great affinity between Race and Language through genetic studies too. While Ibn Khaldoun ( a berber impostering as descendent from Arabs) claims that the primacy of the Arabs made occupied countries speak Arabic while the people are descendent from Pre Arabic Stock, this Hypothethis had no scientific proof in the 13th century while recent studies proved beyond doubt that people in North Africa and Palestine speak Arabic because they Are Arabs in Blood. need to delete Ibn Khaldoun ref03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
"in bypassing the biblical Israelites and claiming kinship with the Canaanites, the pre-Israelite inhabitants of Palestine, it is possible to assert a historical claim antedating the biblical promise "!!!! This quotation is racist claiming there is a promise? and there is a bypassing? of Israelite existance!! even though archaeological studies failed to prove that Israelites had hegomony on Palestine for a substansial time. Yet this Zionist jewish Louis puting these stupid allegations as corner stones and pillars or tenets of Scientific History. This guy is old and worthless. THis statement of his is unscientific racist and insulting to muslims and palestinians about regarding something not existant (the Promise) He wants to impose the interpretation representing 10 million southern babtist and 10 million jews and impose it on 2 billion muslims + 2 million christians and the rest of the world. Not every thing this old man poke out from his mouth is pearls, they could be goat duns too. need to cut because racist and defamatory.03:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. While I think that Lewis is an Orientalist whose personal views on Arabs may not be that free of bias, I don't think his being Jewish has anything to do with whether or not he is a credible source here. Also, the quote isn't racist. It's his opinion, as a historian, regarding why the thesis of Canaanite descent is important to Palestinians, within the context of their struggle with Israel. It's something echoed in the work of Mohammed Zakariya, though the motivations for his critique are quite different. Please try to refrain from linking people's ethno-religious backgrounds to the credibility of their arguments. Thanks. Tiamut 10:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It is not about that. It is about he says Palestinians trying to BYPASS (((ancient Israelites))) Now he says ancient israelites exist even though in many other instances he doubts their existance ( at least as a state or nation that had exclusive right to palestine which never happened Historically as from Scientific point of view there is no evidence ( archaeological or other wise )) that they even existed in the Palestine or immigrated from Egypt or Iraq. I am saying the man is very old (Alzheimer effect) he must have been injected alot of prestigue he does not deserve. Secondly he talks about a (Promise) ?? I read the Bible million times there was no promise but just a covenent ( agreement((If you do this I do that for you, If you don;t do this I will send you to diaspora)) and so there is no Promise. And even if there is a promise, it does not obligate other peoples because the bible from the scientific point of view could be fake or forfieted or messed up with. And the Promise he talks about is only an interpretation of the 10 million jews ( not all jews) and the extreme sect of the protestants just a nother 10 million or so. So what kind of silly scientific reasoning he is bringing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 00:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
.
The notion that J2 is a sister clade of J1 is no longer taken. J2 is 8 main clades only one of these clades originated from the mountains north of the Levant (Kurds, Armenians). The old studies 1996 (stone age in genetic geneology) was ignorant of these subclades. Over 90% of all J2s is in Europe. The Hypothesis that one of J2 clades immigrated from north of the levant as the Indo Europeans is nor longer taken. It is unlikely that a J2 clade members be higher across the seas than it is origin country. (Semino et al 2004). You write that Jews have twice as much as j1 ( sounds like twice J1 in the Arabs) and that is wrong. Need to reformulate that J2 is double J1 of both in Jews. Also, according to the summary of Coffman study J2 is different ancestries ( each one started way back before History) and Jews have all these subclades of J2. J2 (coffman ) is not semitic. Only J1 is connected to semitic peoples and semitic languages ( Phoenicians spoke semitic hence they are J1 too)( see Coffman). Need to specify that j2 is composed of different ancestries.
Dear Tianut: The DNA clues section was about the prevalence of J1 in Palestine and surrounding countries (J1 originated in this area (the only one, while only one subclade of J2 originated in north of the Levant ( remote isolated mountains not considered part of Semitic civilizations). The addition of J2 to the DNA clues disturbed the irony. If you are interested still in explaining J2 presence then you have to explain the whole picture about J2 ( that it is 8 subclades only one clade found in Arabic countries that of the Kurds while the rest of the clades are mainly in Europe. You would need to specify the difference between Jews and (Arabic Countries) that Jews have all these J2 subclades ( all not semitic) and Arab countries have only one clade!!. I prefer to not expand into J2 since it is irrelevant. In 2000 Nebet ( and Hammer before him) made a study of the suboverlapping of Haplotypes between arabs and Jews ( as if he is not the aware of the existance of Haplogroips by 2000!?) Then in 2001 made an apologistic study that Jews ARE SIMILAR TO NON Semitic peoples in the Middle East than to the Arabs) that came after great criticism from Diekenz Anthropoly blog run by a great genetist. Either these studies shoulb included or we better get rid of the old (vendicated studies in the article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.28.120 ( talk) 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi there. What you are saying is very interesting. I'm not a geneticist and the DNA material has been challenging for me. Why don't you make some edits clarifying some of this? I will happily fix the language if you write the science and provide the sources. Tiamut 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC) I will gladly do this . but I think details should be in Haplogroup J1 and J2 articles.
According to a recent study of comparision between Lebanese muslims and Lebanses christians (Maronites) both had J1 but of both recent ancestry (arabs and jews) and earlier ancestry of J1 ( of the phoenicians and araemeans J1) However christians had more of phoenician (and other related semitic speaking peoples araemeans Canaanites et) than of the Arab J1 characterized by the Galili Modal Haplotype. ant DNA close to Galli modal haplotype is considered Arabic or jewish ( Cohan modal Haplotype and Sanaa modal haplotype and North African arab modal haplotype and the Bedoin of Negev desert modal haplotype (Nabataeans first son of Ishmael). The J1 DNA that modal haplotype that is a little bit further is considered of the Phonicians. For example DYS in Cohan modal Haplotype is 16 alleles ( found in Cohanim people and arabs#2 millions in Oman alone) while if DYS was 17 it becomes the Haplotype of the Arabs who conquered north Africal in 7th century AD ( Arabs of Muhammad and also of Ghassanids) the Nabataeans ( Bedoin of the Negev) have also close numbers. However the Phoenicians could be DYS 14 etc. The Cohan Modal haplotype is 6 codes ( 5 in addition to DYS 388 or 12 codes) both ways 6 or 12 the Arabs have closer numbers to Cohanim ( known to preserved Paternal ancestry from Aaron because they were special and the only descendents of Aaron) while Levites are descendents of Levites ( Levi is ancestor of Aaron) As concerning the number of J1 in Palestinians it was adjusted after Semino study to account for new readings of the previous studies by Nebet and Hammer when J1 could not be differentiated from J2 in 1998 and 2000. So it is at 62%. However these samples are even very scewed because they were made by three Israeli researchers ( nebet Behar and Hammer) (all of them work with Coffman in the Family DNA company) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 06:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC) It is amazing that the Galilie Modal Haplotype (GMH) discovered by Nebet in 2000 in a sample of Palestinians in Galili ( Israel) became the Modal Haplotype of the Arabs of the 7th century conquest, but a very close haplotype is Cohan Modal Haplotype which is also found in Arabs in Oman ( in large numbers), Hence GMH could even represent the ancient jews and Cohan Modal Haplotype as well could represent the Arabs. The Arabs are the great possessers of GMH as well the CMH in J1 in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 06:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
To: Michael, the several refs regarding mutations and genetic diseases should be at the bottom. As regarding the Nebet studies he has two 2000 and 2001: in 2001 he conclude that haplotypes /groups overlap with palestinians and jews, However because of critisizm from Geneticists in 2001 he corrected himdself by concluding from the same study sample that jews were more similar to non arabs in Middle East than Arabs, and this is how I arranged that. The last section about the Gene flow from Africa is no longer valid since this female gene was found in the Europeans themselves ( from Neolithic times--preHistory). What was thought as aflow from slavery is actually the homeland of that female gene is the middle East( and africa). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.17.167 ( talk) 07:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
(Have removed rant from an editor now blocked, you can find it in history if you're really interested). PR talk 19:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Are Palestinians really so different from other surrounding Arabs, like Jordanians, to consider them separate ethnic group? After all borders in that area were drawn by colonial powers and almost never properly followed ethnic borders, so is it actualy possible to draw ethnic a line for example between Palestinian and Jordanian? Shouldn't palestinians count as simply part of Arabs? Btw, as we can see wiki article about arabs uses picture of family in ramallah at 1905, which indicates that there isn't any serious difference between palestinians and arabs. Also we do not have articles about Jordanians or Saudi Arabians or Iraqis or Tunesians or Libyans or Omanis as separate ethnic groups(almost all those redirect to articles about states). What makes Palestinians different from these that allows them to be categorised as ethnicity?-- Staberinde 09:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
lewis-p17
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)Another haplotype study by Almut Nebel et al. (2000) found that: "According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help) According to Nebel et al. (2002), the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1; at rates between 30% – 62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East. (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001).
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)