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Moved jewish refugees to end of page. If I am writing an article about triangles, I don't add "and there are also quadrats" in the first sentence. I rather would welcome a separate article about the jewish refugees. Further: do such silly minority views as "there were no palestinians" belong really to the article? I recommend deleting the paragraph. -- Elian 23:10 Sep 24, 2002 (UTC)
We might want to mention that the refugees still live in refugee camps because the countries where they're located refuse to integrate them into their society. -- Zoe
Israeli Palestinians note that this is used to silence legitimate Palestinian voices and makes a mockery of supposed freedom of speech. In practice almost any statement made by Palestinian politicians can be branded as being somehow against Israel as a Jewish state. When that happens, the politician faces severe consequences, thus effectively putting an end to meaningful debate.
This is something I don't understand. How can a demographic change violate a law? Until this is explained, I move this paragraph to the talk page.
moved from article to talk page
Now what the hell is this page? Obviously presenting Herzl's opinion and saying it was about Palestinian refugees is an horrible anachronism (he died 44 years before 1948!). Most of this page is useless, and should be united with Palestinian exodus, in my opinion. -- Uri
"The Palestinians were, compared to all the surrounding states which had no interest in an independent palestinian state, too weak to establish a state of their own. They got no share of the nation cake." -- Elian
In the first place, the UN offered the Palestinians half of what was left of Palestine (the Jordanians having been given the largest piece of British Palestine in 1946) in 1947. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, declined. They wanted it all. They wanted no Israel. They said as much. They had been trying to prevent Jews from returning to their ancestral land since the late 1800s.
From 1948 until 1967, Arabs held all of Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. There was no Intifada. There was no movement of liberation. There was occupation by Egypt of Gaza, and annexation of the West Bank (not recognized by the International community) by Jordan. The Palestinians could have declared statehood and had Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital. Why did they not take statehood then? Because they still believed the Arab countries could do what they said they could: "Drive the Zionists into the sea", leaving the Arabs with all the land (and not necessarily a state of Palestine).
The Palestinians never had a national movement until the Israeli occupation (beginning in 1967), in large part, because they never identified themselves as anything but Arabs. For centuries, "Palestine" was considered just a part of Greater Syria. The Palestinians speak the same language as all of the neighboring countries, i.e. Arabic. Especially now that so few Christian Palestinians are left, truly a sad developement, most Palestinians share the religion of Islam with the neighboring countries.
I have been researching the topic of Palestinian refugees and have read extensively at websites on both points of view. I have discussed the issue with Palestinians as well as Israelis.
It is understandable that so few people know about the Jewish refugees of the same era as the Palestinian refugees. Every time I see a "background" piece on the conflict in the Middle East, it always tells the story of the Palestinian refugees and it never points out that there was an even greater number of Jewish refugees created during the same time.
By the way, I do disagree with the current Israeli leadership. I think they would be better off withdrawing from Gaza and most, but not all, of the West Bank. It is difficult because Israel is such a small country, surrounded by not very friendly countries. I believe that Israel will get to the point where it will opt for unilateral solutions to end the conflict. How can you negotiate with people who teach their children in school that it is noble to become a suicide bomber? -- Hlhoffman
-- Elian
Elian, do you actually excuse mass murder?
Do two wrongs make a right? War and ethnic strifes aren't nice things anywhere in the world. Human blood is equally red no matter to whom it belongs.
Most of the events described in the linked place took place months after the beginning of the Second Intifada - a war that was sponsored, rather than put down, by the Palestinian Authority. Who was it, but Arafat, who shouted: "With spirit and blood we shall redeem you Palestine"? So if you try to excuse terrorism, don't do it by events that were caused by terrorism.
You should rather ask: Did the Palestinian complaints about Israel prior to 2000 justify the deaths of thousands? Do the deaths of thousands justify the death of one innocent child? (fill in nationalities as you like)
Sincerely yours,
I do not understand it. What does it mean? Massive Arab immigration 1946-1948? If so is there a source? Does Israel have a definition for "Palestinian refugee"? -- BL
I moved this page back from [Palestinian refugees] to keep it in complience with our naming conventions. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pluralization) for detials. - Efghij 02:33 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi folks, I am a new entry into this fray. I have corrected the language that suggests that refugees starting fleeing after 1948 war with Arab States and removed the language that suggested that they have brainwashed with anti-Israeli rhetoric. I think it is clearer and easier to just say that they would threaten Israel's Jewish majority if enough of them returned and not make blanket statements about their psychology. I have added information about the Israeli government response to the refugees, besides just not allowing them back. Otherwise looks torturous but good.
Jesse
Since it is unlikely that removing the polemics from the article would be successful, I suggest that it be restructured so that there is a plain NPOV account first and then there is a section which presents some competing viewpoints, not as a debate but as a precise summary of ideas.
I was certainly wrong. If you calculate it you will see that the Muslim population growth did not exceed 3%. A growth that definitely can be explained by other factors than immigration. Add to the fact that no British records showing a substantial Muslim immigration. So thankfully I'm not agreeing with you. BL 21:59, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph:
because we have to have some standards here.
Would some kind sysop please copy the contents of this article to User:BL/blablabla so I can edit it offline? BL 14:20, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This recent massive immigration is a racist myth perpertrated by a hysterical racist diatribe written by a racist journalist with no status as a historian. Contrary to what RK claims, her claims have no support at all amongst the academic historians of this time and period. -- zero
Take the Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath, an authority on the Palestinians (and, incidentally, known in Israel for his right wing views): "I think it's a sheer forgery. In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish." Or Justin McCarthy, the most famous Ottoman demographer, author of the standard reference The Population of Palestine: "her work is demographically worthless". He gives some amazing examples of Peters' ignorance. I could go on... Besides, the allegation "Israelis complain..as they claim.." is an insult to the great majority of Israelis who don't believe crap like this. Unlike RK, I have actually read most of the official documents cited by Peters and I know as a fact that she misrepresents them. There are endless examples. --- zero UTC 10:30 Aug 7.
The following is a response to "zero" and BL. Both of you keep attacking Joan Peters' book, yet you are being inconsistent on the main point. A few days ago, BL admitted to me (and his remarks are still here on Wikipedia) that it is undenibale true that there was massive Arab immigration into Palestine, and that the rise in Arab population cannot be explained any other way. I agreed with him, as do most historians. However, in the last day BL seems to have totally reversed his position, and denies this fact altogether. For reasons I do not understand, BL keeps deleting references to significant amounts of Arab immigration, and is claiming that no mainstream historains believe such an immigration took place. Yet they do make this claim. So what the heck is goin on? Consider this sumamry from JSource, the Jewish Virtual Library: It contains no original research, and relies on original British, Arab and United Nations documents. I am uncertain of why zero and BL seem to be claiming that all these reports are lies. RK 16:45, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
RK, you are claiming something that I and zero does not agree with. Unless your name is George W. Bush, it is your job to prove the existance of your claim because disproving it is impossible. At first I thought that the Muslim population of palestine doubled from 1921 to 1945 was remarkabe. It is not and can easily be explained by increased life expectancy and decreasted infant mortality rate. Additionaly the Palestinian Arab population left within Israel's border after 1948 continued to grow at a equally high rate even when there can be no question about that there was no Arab immigration. Also, these two sources [3], [4] have two nifty tables in the botton of their respective page showing clearly that the Arab immigration was nonexistant and that higher living standards was the reason for the high population growth. BL 20:27, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
BL is quite correct. In fact, the Israeli Statistical Yearbooks of the early 1960s give a rate of natural increase of Israeli Arabs that was considerably higher than the total rate of Arab population increase during the Mandate. The reasons are no secret: each Arab woman on average gave birth more than 7 times. -- zero 04:58, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Now let's turn to the Census of 1931 and its lengthy report (which I can't find on the UNISPAL site but I have on microfilm). You won't find it mentioned in FTI that pages 61-65 of volume I contain a section "Comparison of the census statistics with the annual records of migration". This compares the census counts against the records of births, deaths and immigration for the period 1922-1931 and analyses the discrepancy. It is the most detailed investigation of unrecorded immigration that appears in any British document as far as I know. While warning of the statistical difficulties of such a study, it concludes that there was a net total unrecorded migratory balance (inwards minus outwards) of 13,000 of which 9,000 were Jews. In other words, total Arab migration of 7,000 legal plus 4,000 illegal. (The figures for Jews were 50,000 legal plus 9,000 illegal.) You also won't find it mentioned in FTI that there was a direct count of people according to birth place. The percentages born outside Palestine were: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%. (Vol I, p59). By now it ought to be abundantly clear that RK is out of his league here. By relying on propagandists and second hand repeats of them, he has formed completely erroneous beliefs about the facts. I don't time to continue this debate much longer, especially as I don't believe RK will wake up and see the light. Most likely he will continue to make the same phoney claims. It wouldn't be a matter of concern except that he keeps inserting his mistaken POV into Wikipedia articles. It is really too much to ask that he assertain the truth of his beliefs before misleadig Wikipedia readers with them? -- zero 06:27, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am removing BL's statements against Joan Peters' book. Her book, as a whole, was not proven to be fraudulent. Less than 1% of the claims and documents are claimed to be in error. I have read many harsh criticisms of this book, and they generally ignore the vast majority of the texts she cites, and the arguments she makes. And even though her data on the number of Palestinian immigrants is now questioned, that is only a small fraction of her book. More than 3/4 of her book is on other issues on this topic, and many of hger arguments are still accepted as valid by many historians. Frankly, the criticism's made against her book are not professional, and many border on hysteria. The fact that so many of these attacks on her appear on anti-Semitic websites only furthers the impression that people are quote-mining selected criticisms to demonize her, and by implication, Israelis. RK 01:15, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I removed Leumi's long paragraph because
1. It got the definition of Palestinian refugee wrong. See
UNRWA for the correct definition. This is mentioned in the previous paragraph of this article already.
2. The precise definition of "normally resident in Palestine" used by UNRWA is more stringent than UNHCR, which exercises flexible discretion in such judgements.
3. The wording "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" suggests the thoroughly discredited recent immigration myth. In fact most people who were included were born in Palestine.
4. It gets the chronology wrong. UNRWA was established before the UNHCR definition was written, so one cannot correctly say that the UNHCR definition is the "traditional" one.
5. Even though children of refugees are not refugees according to the definition in the Refugee Convention, the UNHCR does extend its protection to those children who it considers in need of protection. This is slightly different from UNRWA practice but not that much different.
6. Anyway most of the original Palestinian refugees did meet the UNHCR definition.
--
Zero 12:44, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The definition of Palestinian Refugee is, according to the UNRWA web site, "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." My paragraph includes the majority of that definition with some paraphrasing. The words "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" is accurate, regardless of what it implies. By definition, if one says "normal place of residence was Palestine 'between June 1946 and May 1948'" one does not deal with before June 1946. Hence it is accurate. Furthermore, the chronology is irrevelevant as the term the UNHCR definition is the one dealing with all refugees, thereby making it the one used in typical use when using the term refugee, irregardless of when the organizations were created. Furthermore, UNRWA practice of extending refugee status to any descendants regardless of their position has led to individuals collecting refugee aid regardless of their position and continuing to be refugees as opposed to being resettled, as normal refugees are. To my mind, that constitutes a substantial difference. Some clarification is perhaps necessary but by no means should the paragraph be deleted. I will add in some of your concerns and clarifications, Zero, and then put the paragraph back.
I'm not entirely sure what this is about but could the two of you please discuss the differences on this talk page rather than reverting to your own versions. Thanks. Angela 23:55, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Why is this page now locked, with an obvious non-nuetral viewpoint? ("However, the book was demolished by scholars, most notably Norman Finkelstein, who demonstrated that Peters' data was fraudulent.") It does not seem to fit in the principles of debate, discussion and nuetrality.
It was just protected on whichever version it was at the time when someone requested the page be locked. This is not meant to express any bias towards one version or the other. It is only a temporary measure to ensure that people discuss the issues rather than getting into an edit. It will be unprotected later. Angela 00:24, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I had hoped Viajero and/ or Zero0000 might have discussed this once the page was protected, but that has not happened so it is now unprotected again. Hopefully the points Leumi has made above will be able to be the basis for futher discussions rather than reverts. Angela 01:46, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have moved this to the bottom as it's the most recent issue:
In the interests of speeding the process to when we may unlock this page, although I fully understand the reasons it was locked and agree that a resolution must be found other than constant reverting, I propose we clearly define the relevant issues. As I see it there are two.
1. Viajero's change of " However, Peters' book does not have the support of the majority of historians in this field." to "However, the book was demolished by scholars, most notably Norman Finkelstein, who demonstrated that Peters' data was fraudulent." I think this is quite obviously an example of a non-neutral point of view, as Ms. Peter's work is first a legitimate scholarly viewpoint held by a great many individuals, and second the language used, such as "demolished" "fraudulent" and otherwise, is by no means nuetral. The previous wording, that the majority of historians disagree, is a reasonable and respectable manner of putting things and in my opinion we should change this part back to it's previous form.
2. The issue of my paragraph addition on the unique differences between the terms "Palestinian Refugee" and "refugee". As this is an article on "Palestinian Refugees" and all my information is correct, and mostly from U.N. sources, I cannot see why this paragraph should not be legitimate. It reads as follows (I have already made some revisions in response to Zero's comments):
It is my opinion that we can come to a compromise here, perhaps by having someone write another perspective in another paragraph. For the moment, I am adding these, and will also add that this page is disputed, and propose we debate the issue here to come to a final resolution.
-Leumi
Just to clarify, I will not work on this page any more as it is a waste of time. The first three paragraphs contain some salvagable material but the rest is rubbish. Leumi's long paragraph is just standard right-wing "bash the victims" stuff. He didn't even bother to put in the key part of the UNRWA definition despite proving above that he knows about it. Then follow two standard junk "quotations" from people who are so important that that the internet never heard of them except for endless regurgitation of these "quotations". (I bet nobody here can even prove they existed.) After that, childish apologetics that even includes citation of the notorious racist forgery "From Time Immemorial". Having it there brings shame on Wikipedia, but with people around who think it is "scholarly" what is the point of trying to do anything about it? So, Bye Bye. -- Zero 06:33, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Brilliant rebuttal Zero. Simply brilliant. "I don't like you, so I won't play!" Are we scholars or children? Your branding of anything not completely in line with the Arab position as "racist" is counterproductive and hypocritical. When you're ready to debate these matters realistically and with respect to other people's opinions, than come back. Until then, I applaud your honorable decision to remove yourself from this discussion.
-Leumi
P.S: Those quotations, by the way, are quite accurate, and a standard Yahoo! Net search will turn up many corroborations.
Should there be anyone who wishes to discuss this matter, detail what they believe should be changed and why, and perhaps engage in the purpose of this forum, that being debate to find something coming close to a mutually acceptable solution, could they possibly speak up now? Within say...the next 3 days, a more than reasonable time? Because without someone detailing their problems and taking the time to actually clearly dispute and discuss the article, we can't really keep it disputed, can we? :) I am eager to hear your views.
Look at this part: "Also out of the ordinary involving Palestinian refugees is that the term applies to any offspring of the original refugees, who unlike normal refugees live in camps indefinitely without any attempt by surrounding governments ... to receive refugees in their territories and that they act ... in order that these refugees may find asylum and the possibility of resettlement."
It's not true. That is, the assertion that it is out of the ordinary is not true. There have been many counterexamples. One recent one is the way the Algerians who helped the French became permanently/indefinitely non-assimilated refugees (I think they were called "Harka", if you want to do a search). Another is the US Indians who ended up on reservations after being driven off their lands. Or the former inhabitants of the Chagos Archipelago, deported to Mauritius for US/UK convenience and who still want to return.
Anyway, the point I wanted to bring out was that this is actually a fairly common thing, an uprooted group that still maintains a connection to its origins even down the generations. What is not so common is for it to last for literally centuries; the only example I know of that is, ironically, the Jewish Diaspora. PML.
That being true, the vast majority and the typical instance of refugees in modern times is that of being resettled. Furthermore, I fully agree that refugees continue to have a connection to their place of birth and a distinct social structure, however this is done usually in a new home where they can move on and live prosperous, healthy lives, New York showing an excellent example of rich and distinct immigrants, some refugees, with distinct cultures beginning to make a new life. Therefore I think that while you're absolutely right that refugees tend to have a distinct culture, what we are discussing is whether they are resettled or attempted to be resettled, and whether the refugee camp scenario is intended to be permanent. And in the vast majority of instances and international laws precedents that situation is not supposed to be permanent and they should be resettled, for the good of the refugees and the international community as whole. It is generally considered immoral and against precedent to allow these refugees to rot in these camps when vast expanses of open, habitable land and nations capable of absorbing them exist. Leumi
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Leumi, or what it has to do with fixing the article.
It sounds like you have some ideas about how the Palestinian refugee problem ought to be settled. Well, so do I. But neither my ideas nor your ideas are really relevant.
The only things that matter are things like:
My own plan is that Bush spend the $85 billion intended for Iraqi reconstruction, to buy land in southern Israel and southwest Jordan, and GIVE it any Arabs who are tired of living in refugee camps -- but MY OPINION DOES NOT COUNT! This is an encyclopedia, and we have to leave out our own ideas (unless we're experts) and instead summarize the reports and views of bona fide scholars and important politicians etc.
Okay?
-- Uncle Ed 14:47, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with the changes you've made Ed and am willing to accept the article how it is, if 81 doesn't change it again. Just one matter of contention. The part where it states that "others were driven from their homes". This is a highly contended charge that I haven't seen verification for. I think it would be best to rephrase that as saying, "some claim they were driven from their homes" in order to make the matter more neutral as the claim is not proven in the majority of cases. I made the change, however if I see the majority of the people here disagree with it I will gladly change it back. It's just a suggestion. Thoughts? Leumi
Ed, you fell for it. What Leumi wrote as just a "claim" by the refugees themselves is in fact the majority opinion of specialist historians. It was even the opinion of the Israeli intelligence services of the time, as shown by Israeli archival documents. As I wrote above, with propagandists like Leumi around the prospect of making this into an accurate article is NIL, so I'm not going to try. -- Zero 01:18, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have moved this text here:
This books has been thoroughly discredited and should on no account be included in an encyclopedia article as a reference. Here is an excerpt from a review in the The New York Review of Books [5]:
Okay, now, both Leumi and Viajero like dear old Uncle Ed, right? So, make me happy and work out a way of including this idea that you both can agree on! -- Uncle Ed 23:23, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Ed: Refugees don't leave their homes because they want a holiday; they leave because they are FORCED to go. Otherwise, they would stay home. It is not a claim, it is a fact. -- Viajero 23:25, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Here is some enlightening information : In an article "Deir Yassin a casualty of guns and propaganda", by Paul Holmes (Reuters) ( http://www.metimes.com/issue98-16/reg/deir.html) he interviewing Mohammed Radwan, who was a resident of Deir Yassi in 1948, and fought for several hours before ruing out of bullets.
In the book "War Without End", by Anton La Guardia (Thomas Dunne Books, N.Y. 2000) we find the following: "Just before Israel's 50th anniversary celebration, I went to Deir Yassin with Ayish Zeidan, known as Haj Ayish, who had lived in the village as a teenager.
He said he never believed that more than 110 people had died at Deir Yassin, and accused Arab leaders of exaggerating the atrocities.
Leumi 23:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Look, I've removed the following sentence: Many fled of their own volition; others were driven from their homes, prior to and during the war. out until we can come to a conclusion on it Viajero. If we're moving the Peters information out till then, then you can't have a double standard by keeping that in, alright? Leumi 23:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've protected the page so things can cool down for a while. Angela . 01:07, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This edit war seems to be a rehash of what has already been rehashed at Palestinian exodus which in my humble opinion is a better article to rehash the rehash. BL 12:18, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
See
Talk:Palestinian Exodus for the questions.
I think there are two major issues of contention in this article. The first is this sentence:
Many fled of their own volition; others claim they were driven from their homes, prior to and during the war.
Now the addition of "claim they" seems to be the problem. This addition was supported, if I recall correctly, in principle by user User:Ed Poor and myself. The rationale was that the claim that they had been forcibly driven from their homes was by no means a fact, and as such should be mentioned as a claim, in order so that, in Ed's words, "Wikipedia isn't supporting (or rejecting) the claim". I agree wholeheartedly. (Ed, if I'm misrepresenting your position hear, or it's changed, just tell me please. It's definitely not my intent) Zero007 contends that he believes that the claim is true and that he thinks that that is the belief of the majority of historians. Viajero thinks that as fear causing someone to leave their home quantifies as psychological pressure, it should be considered "forced" even if it wasn't an issue of "forced at gunpoint".
In response to Zero007, it's not our business to decide the accuracy of a claim, and furthermore I heavily dispute the claim that the majority of historians believe that they were expelled. There is a substantial mainstream perpective that holds that they were not expelled, and by writing it as a fact, we introduce POV language. In response to Viajero, the term "fled" is sufficient to imply they were running from something. You claim that psychological pressure qualifies as force as well. While one could say that is semantically correct, it is by no means practically so and will leave the reader with a mistaken impression. "claim they" does not promote or reject the claim. That's the first major issue of contention. I'll post the second very shortly. I just want to get this down first. Leumi 04:38, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
A "refugee" is someone who is unable to return, for whatever reason. The reason they left is irrelevant - maybe they were on holidays or on a business trip. If they could return they wouldn't be "refugees". The issue is, what is keeping them from returning. And we all know what that is.
Having just exposed an example of deliberate distortion of Morris's book by OneVoice, I come here to find another. Why can't we just ban this fanatic and be rid of him?
So here we see that OneVoice has suppressed the fact that Morris gave a wide range of possible values. Why should we accept this sort of behaviour?
In addition to this crime, OneVoice also made another error which might not have been deliberate. The value of 750,000 refers to the total population movement up to the end of the 1948-9 war, since it is calculated from comparisons of the Arab population before and after and also from UN registration of refugees in 1949. Some (30,000 according to one source given by Morris) of the 30,000-90,000 were people who returned before the end of the war and so are not included in the 750,000. --
Zero 04:06, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Let bring the full data. Benny Morris, Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956. Page 39, footnote 45. In this footnote to the number of refugees illegally settling in Israel, Benny Morris brings several numbers each one with its own time span. Only one number is attributed to more that one person. That numbers is 90,000 refugees. No additional information regarding the source is provided by Morris. "Some Israeli officials spoke of as many as 90,000 resettling infiltrators." 90,000/750,000 =~ 12%.
One person "said in late 1953 that some 30,000 refugees had illegally resettled in Israel in the second half of 1948 and early 1949 and another 20,000 had resettled since. (emphasis added. That totals to 50,000 by late 1953 per this source.
The third source "estimate, by mid-1951 between 28,500 and 41,500 Arabs had succeeded in infiltrating and resettling." By mid-1951 which is two years prior to the period end date cited in the article.
Which means we an intermediate data point of 28,500-41,500 no later than mid 1951, and we have between 50,000 and 90,000 over the period 1948-1953.
Morris provides another reason to believe these numbers are low. "when an Israeli Arab woman died, her relatives would refrain from informing the authorities and smuggle in a refugee woman to take her identity and place: 'This custom has resulted in a situation that, in some Arab villages, women have simply ceased to die.'"
It is unclear why Morris uses the 30,000 number at all. Only if infiltration allowed in no more than 1,500 over the course of two years is it possible to obtain a number as low as 30,000.
OneVoice 10:44, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"A few years earlier, a Jordanian Baathist MP, Abdullah Nawas, had said in 1952 that "We shall be most insistent in perpetuating the Palestine problem as a life question ... The Palestine war continues by dint of the refugees only. Their existence leaves the problem open." What's the source of this quote? Google only gives [7] and [8], and I trust neither, especially given that they themselves give no source for the quote or the translation. - Mustafaa 08:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This is a really great article. I am interested in "During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way illegally from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages", does anyone have more information on this? Colin Carr 21:04, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Moved jewish refugees to end of page. If I am writing an article about triangles, I don't add "and there are also quadrats" in the first sentence. I rather would welcome a separate article about the jewish refugees. Further: do such silly minority views as "there were no palestinians" belong really to the article? I recommend deleting the paragraph. -- Elian 23:10 Sep 24, 2002 (UTC)
We might want to mention that the refugees still live in refugee camps because the countries where they're located refuse to integrate them into their society. -- Zoe
Israeli Palestinians note that this is used to silence legitimate Palestinian voices and makes a mockery of supposed freedom of speech. In practice almost any statement made by Palestinian politicians can be branded as being somehow against Israel as a Jewish state. When that happens, the politician faces severe consequences, thus effectively putting an end to meaningful debate.
This is something I don't understand. How can a demographic change violate a law? Until this is explained, I move this paragraph to the talk page.
moved from article to talk page
Now what the hell is this page? Obviously presenting Herzl's opinion and saying it was about Palestinian refugees is an horrible anachronism (he died 44 years before 1948!). Most of this page is useless, and should be united with Palestinian exodus, in my opinion. -- Uri
"The Palestinians were, compared to all the surrounding states which had no interest in an independent palestinian state, too weak to establish a state of their own. They got no share of the nation cake." -- Elian
In the first place, the UN offered the Palestinians half of what was left of Palestine (the Jordanians having been given the largest piece of British Palestine in 1946) in 1947. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, declined. They wanted it all. They wanted no Israel. They said as much. They had been trying to prevent Jews from returning to their ancestral land since the late 1800s.
From 1948 until 1967, Arabs held all of Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. There was no Intifada. There was no movement of liberation. There was occupation by Egypt of Gaza, and annexation of the West Bank (not recognized by the International community) by Jordan. The Palestinians could have declared statehood and had Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital. Why did they not take statehood then? Because they still believed the Arab countries could do what they said they could: "Drive the Zionists into the sea", leaving the Arabs with all the land (and not necessarily a state of Palestine).
The Palestinians never had a national movement until the Israeli occupation (beginning in 1967), in large part, because they never identified themselves as anything but Arabs. For centuries, "Palestine" was considered just a part of Greater Syria. The Palestinians speak the same language as all of the neighboring countries, i.e. Arabic. Especially now that so few Christian Palestinians are left, truly a sad developement, most Palestinians share the religion of Islam with the neighboring countries.
I have been researching the topic of Palestinian refugees and have read extensively at websites on both points of view. I have discussed the issue with Palestinians as well as Israelis.
It is understandable that so few people know about the Jewish refugees of the same era as the Palestinian refugees. Every time I see a "background" piece on the conflict in the Middle East, it always tells the story of the Palestinian refugees and it never points out that there was an even greater number of Jewish refugees created during the same time.
By the way, I do disagree with the current Israeli leadership. I think they would be better off withdrawing from Gaza and most, but not all, of the West Bank. It is difficult because Israel is such a small country, surrounded by not very friendly countries. I believe that Israel will get to the point where it will opt for unilateral solutions to end the conflict. How can you negotiate with people who teach their children in school that it is noble to become a suicide bomber? -- Hlhoffman
-- Elian
Elian, do you actually excuse mass murder?
Do two wrongs make a right? War and ethnic strifes aren't nice things anywhere in the world. Human blood is equally red no matter to whom it belongs.
Most of the events described in the linked place took place months after the beginning of the Second Intifada - a war that was sponsored, rather than put down, by the Palestinian Authority. Who was it, but Arafat, who shouted: "With spirit and blood we shall redeem you Palestine"? So if you try to excuse terrorism, don't do it by events that were caused by terrorism.
You should rather ask: Did the Palestinian complaints about Israel prior to 2000 justify the deaths of thousands? Do the deaths of thousands justify the death of one innocent child? (fill in nationalities as you like)
Sincerely yours,
I do not understand it. What does it mean? Massive Arab immigration 1946-1948? If so is there a source? Does Israel have a definition for "Palestinian refugee"? -- BL
I moved this page back from [Palestinian refugees] to keep it in complience with our naming conventions. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pluralization) for detials. - Efghij 02:33 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hi folks, I am a new entry into this fray. I have corrected the language that suggests that refugees starting fleeing after 1948 war with Arab States and removed the language that suggested that they have brainwashed with anti-Israeli rhetoric. I think it is clearer and easier to just say that they would threaten Israel's Jewish majority if enough of them returned and not make blanket statements about their psychology. I have added information about the Israeli government response to the refugees, besides just not allowing them back. Otherwise looks torturous but good.
Jesse
Since it is unlikely that removing the polemics from the article would be successful, I suggest that it be restructured so that there is a plain NPOV account first and then there is a section which presents some competing viewpoints, not as a debate but as a precise summary of ideas.
I was certainly wrong. If you calculate it you will see that the Muslim population growth did not exceed 3%. A growth that definitely can be explained by other factors than immigration. Add to the fact that no British records showing a substantial Muslim immigration. So thankfully I'm not agreeing with you. BL 21:59, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph:
because we have to have some standards here.
Would some kind sysop please copy the contents of this article to User:BL/blablabla so I can edit it offline? BL 14:20, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This recent massive immigration is a racist myth perpertrated by a hysterical racist diatribe written by a racist journalist with no status as a historian. Contrary to what RK claims, her claims have no support at all amongst the academic historians of this time and period. -- zero
Take the Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath, an authority on the Palestinians (and, incidentally, known in Israel for his right wing views): "I think it's a sheer forgery. In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish." Or Justin McCarthy, the most famous Ottoman demographer, author of the standard reference The Population of Palestine: "her work is demographically worthless". He gives some amazing examples of Peters' ignorance. I could go on... Besides, the allegation "Israelis complain..as they claim.." is an insult to the great majority of Israelis who don't believe crap like this. Unlike RK, I have actually read most of the official documents cited by Peters and I know as a fact that she misrepresents them. There are endless examples. --- zero UTC 10:30 Aug 7.
The following is a response to "zero" and BL. Both of you keep attacking Joan Peters' book, yet you are being inconsistent on the main point. A few days ago, BL admitted to me (and his remarks are still here on Wikipedia) that it is undenibale true that there was massive Arab immigration into Palestine, and that the rise in Arab population cannot be explained any other way. I agreed with him, as do most historians. However, in the last day BL seems to have totally reversed his position, and denies this fact altogether. For reasons I do not understand, BL keeps deleting references to significant amounts of Arab immigration, and is claiming that no mainstream historains believe such an immigration took place. Yet they do make this claim. So what the heck is goin on? Consider this sumamry from JSource, the Jewish Virtual Library: It contains no original research, and relies on original British, Arab and United Nations documents. I am uncertain of why zero and BL seem to be claiming that all these reports are lies. RK 16:45, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
RK, you are claiming something that I and zero does not agree with. Unless your name is George W. Bush, it is your job to prove the existance of your claim because disproving it is impossible. At first I thought that the Muslim population of palestine doubled from 1921 to 1945 was remarkabe. It is not and can easily be explained by increased life expectancy and decreasted infant mortality rate. Additionaly the Palestinian Arab population left within Israel's border after 1948 continued to grow at a equally high rate even when there can be no question about that there was no Arab immigration. Also, these two sources [3], [4] have two nifty tables in the botton of their respective page showing clearly that the Arab immigration was nonexistant and that higher living standards was the reason for the high population growth. BL 20:27, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
BL is quite correct. In fact, the Israeli Statistical Yearbooks of the early 1960s give a rate of natural increase of Israeli Arabs that was considerably higher than the total rate of Arab population increase during the Mandate. The reasons are no secret: each Arab woman on average gave birth more than 7 times. -- zero 04:58, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Now let's turn to the Census of 1931 and its lengthy report (which I can't find on the UNISPAL site but I have on microfilm). You won't find it mentioned in FTI that pages 61-65 of volume I contain a section "Comparison of the census statistics with the annual records of migration". This compares the census counts against the records of births, deaths and immigration for the period 1922-1931 and analyses the discrepancy. It is the most detailed investigation of unrecorded immigration that appears in any British document as far as I know. While warning of the statistical difficulties of such a study, it concludes that there was a net total unrecorded migratory balance (inwards minus outwards) of 13,000 of which 9,000 were Jews. In other words, total Arab migration of 7,000 legal plus 4,000 illegal. (The figures for Jews were 50,000 legal plus 9,000 illegal.) You also won't find it mentioned in FTI that there was a direct count of people according to birth place. The percentages born outside Palestine were: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%. (Vol I, p59). By now it ought to be abundantly clear that RK is out of his league here. By relying on propagandists and second hand repeats of them, he has formed completely erroneous beliefs about the facts. I don't time to continue this debate much longer, especially as I don't believe RK will wake up and see the light. Most likely he will continue to make the same phoney claims. It wouldn't be a matter of concern except that he keeps inserting his mistaken POV into Wikipedia articles. It is really too much to ask that he assertain the truth of his beliefs before misleadig Wikipedia readers with them? -- zero 06:27, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am removing BL's statements against Joan Peters' book. Her book, as a whole, was not proven to be fraudulent. Less than 1% of the claims and documents are claimed to be in error. I have read many harsh criticisms of this book, and they generally ignore the vast majority of the texts she cites, and the arguments she makes. And even though her data on the number of Palestinian immigrants is now questioned, that is only a small fraction of her book. More than 3/4 of her book is on other issues on this topic, and many of hger arguments are still accepted as valid by many historians. Frankly, the criticism's made against her book are not professional, and many border on hysteria. The fact that so many of these attacks on her appear on anti-Semitic websites only furthers the impression that people are quote-mining selected criticisms to demonize her, and by implication, Israelis. RK 01:15, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I removed Leumi's long paragraph because
1. It got the definition of Palestinian refugee wrong. See
UNRWA for the correct definition. This is mentioned in the previous paragraph of this article already.
2. The precise definition of "normally resident in Palestine" used by UNRWA is more stringent than UNHCR, which exercises flexible discretion in such judgements.
3. The wording "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" suggests the thoroughly discredited recent immigration myth. In fact most people who were included were born in Palestine.
4. It gets the chronology wrong. UNRWA was established before the UNHCR definition was written, so one cannot correctly say that the UNHCR definition is the "traditional" one.
5. Even though children of refugees are not refugees according to the definition in the Refugee Convention, the UNHCR does extend its protection to those children who it considers in need of protection. This is slightly different from UNRWA practice but not that much different.
6. Anyway most of the original Palestinian refugees did meet the UNHCR definition.
--
Zero 12:44, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The definition of Palestinian Refugee is, according to the UNRWA web site, "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." My paragraph includes the majority of that definition with some paraphrasing. The words "regardless of their place of residence before June 1946" is accurate, regardless of what it implies. By definition, if one says "normal place of residence was Palestine 'between June 1946 and May 1948'" one does not deal with before June 1946. Hence it is accurate. Furthermore, the chronology is irrevelevant as the term the UNHCR definition is the one dealing with all refugees, thereby making it the one used in typical use when using the term refugee, irregardless of when the organizations were created. Furthermore, UNRWA practice of extending refugee status to any descendants regardless of their position has led to individuals collecting refugee aid regardless of their position and continuing to be refugees as opposed to being resettled, as normal refugees are. To my mind, that constitutes a substantial difference. Some clarification is perhaps necessary but by no means should the paragraph be deleted. I will add in some of your concerns and clarifications, Zero, and then put the paragraph back.
I'm not entirely sure what this is about but could the two of you please discuss the differences on this talk page rather than reverting to your own versions. Thanks. Angela 23:55, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Why is this page now locked, with an obvious non-nuetral viewpoint? ("However, the book was demolished by scholars, most notably Norman Finkelstein, who demonstrated that Peters' data was fraudulent.") It does not seem to fit in the principles of debate, discussion and nuetrality.
It was just protected on whichever version it was at the time when someone requested the page be locked. This is not meant to express any bias towards one version or the other. It is only a temporary measure to ensure that people discuss the issues rather than getting into an edit. It will be unprotected later. Angela 00:24, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I had hoped Viajero and/ or Zero0000 might have discussed this once the page was protected, but that has not happened so it is now unprotected again. Hopefully the points Leumi has made above will be able to be the basis for futher discussions rather than reverts. Angela 01:46, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have moved this to the bottom as it's the most recent issue:
In the interests of speeding the process to when we may unlock this page, although I fully understand the reasons it was locked and agree that a resolution must be found other than constant reverting, I propose we clearly define the relevant issues. As I see it there are two.
1. Viajero's change of " However, Peters' book does not have the support of the majority of historians in this field." to "However, the book was demolished by scholars, most notably Norman Finkelstein, who demonstrated that Peters' data was fraudulent." I think this is quite obviously an example of a non-neutral point of view, as Ms. Peter's work is first a legitimate scholarly viewpoint held by a great many individuals, and second the language used, such as "demolished" "fraudulent" and otherwise, is by no means nuetral. The previous wording, that the majority of historians disagree, is a reasonable and respectable manner of putting things and in my opinion we should change this part back to it's previous form.
2. The issue of my paragraph addition on the unique differences between the terms "Palestinian Refugee" and "refugee". As this is an article on "Palestinian Refugees" and all my information is correct, and mostly from U.N. sources, I cannot see why this paragraph should not be legitimate. It reads as follows (I have already made some revisions in response to Zero's comments):
It is my opinion that we can come to a compromise here, perhaps by having someone write another perspective in another paragraph. For the moment, I am adding these, and will also add that this page is disputed, and propose we debate the issue here to come to a final resolution.
-Leumi
Just to clarify, I will not work on this page any more as it is a waste of time. The first three paragraphs contain some salvagable material but the rest is rubbish. Leumi's long paragraph is just standard right-wing "bash the victims" stuff. He didn't even bother to put in the key part of the UNRWA definition despite proving above that he knows about it. Then follow two standard junk "quotations" from people who are so important that that the internet never heard of them except for endless regurgitation of these "quotations". (I bet nobody here can even prove they existed.) After that, childish apologetics that even includes citation of the notorious racist forgery "From Time Immemorial". Having it there brings shame on Wikipedia, but with people around who think it is "scholarly" what is the point of trying to do anything about it? So, Bye Bye. -- Zero 06:33, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Brilliant rebuttal Zero. Simply brilliant. "I don't like you, so I won't play!" Are we scholars or children? Your branding of anything not completely in line with the Arab position as "racist" is counterproductive and hypocritical. When you're ready to debate these matters realistically and with respect to other people's opinions, than come back. Until then, I applaud your honorable decision to remove yourself from this discussion.
-Leumi
P.S: Those quotations, by the way, are quite accurate, and a standard Yahoo! Net search will turn up many corroborations.
Should there be anyone who wishes to discuss this matter, detail what they believe should be changed and why, and perhaps engage in the purpose of this forum, that being debate to find something coming close to a mutually acceptable solution, could they possibly speak up now? Within say...the next 3 days, a more than reasonable time? Because without someone detailing their problems and taking the time to actually clearly dispute and discuss the article, we can't really keep it disputed, can we? :) I am eager to hear your views.
Look at this part: "Also out of the ordinary involving Palestinian refugees is that the term applies to any offspring of the original refugees, who unlike normal refugees live in camps indefinitely without any attempt by surrounding governments ... to receive refugees in their territories and that they act ... in order that these refugees may find asylum and the possibility of resettlement."
It's not true. That is, the assertion that it is out of the ordinary is not true. There have been many counterexamples. One recent one is the way the Algerians who helped the French became permanently/indefinitely non-assimilated refugees (I think they were called "Harka", if you want to do a search). Another is the US Indians who ended up on reservations after being driven off their lands. Or the former inhabitants of the Chagos Archipelago, deported to Mauritius for US/UK convenience and who still want to return.
Anyway, the point I wanted to bring out was that this is actually a fairly common thing, an uprooted group that still maintains a connection to its origins even down the generations. What is not so common is for it to last for literally centuries; the only example I know of that is, ironically, the Jewish Diaspora. PML.
That being true, the vast majority and the typical instance of refugees in modern times is that of being resettled. Furthermore, I fully agree that refugees continue to have a connection to their place of birth and a distinct social structure, however this is done usually in a new home where they can move on and live prosperous, healthy lives, New York showing an excellent example of rich and distinct immigrants, some refugees, with distinct cultures beginning to make a new life. Therefore I think that while you're absolutely right that refugees tend to have a distinct culture, what we are discussing is whether they are resettled or attempted to be resettled, and whether the refugee camp scenario is intended to be permanent. And in the vast majority of instances and international laws precedents that situation is not supposed to be permanent and they should be resettled, for the good of the refugees and the international community as whole. It is generally considered immoral and against precedent to allow these refugees to rot in these camps when vast expanses of open, habitable land and nations capable of absorbing them exist. Leumi
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Leumi, or what it has to do with fixing the article.
It sounds like you have some ideas about how the Palestinian refugee problem ought to be settled. Well, so do I. But neither my ideas nor your ideas are really relevant.
The only things that matter are things like:
My own plan is that Bush spend the $85 billion intended for Iraqi reconstruction, to buy land in southern Israel and southwest Jordan, and GIVE it any Arabs who are tired of living in refugee camps -- but MY OPINION DOES NOT COUNT! This is an encyclopedia, and we have to leave out our own ideas (unless we're experts) and instead summarize the reports and views of bona fide scholars and important politicians etc.
Okay?
-- Uncle Ed 14:47, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with the changes you've made Ed and am willing to accept the article how it is, if 81 doesn't change it again. Just one matter of contention. The part where it states that "others were driven from their homes". This is a highly contended charge that I haven't seen verification for. I think it would be best to rephrase that as saying, "some claim they were driven from their homes" in order to make the matter more neutral as the claim is not proven in the majority of cases. I made the change, however if I see the majority of the people here disagree with it I will gladly change it back. It's just a suggestion. Thoughts? Leumi
Ed, you fell for it. What Leumi wrote as just a "claim" by the refugees themselves is in fact the majority opinion of specialist historians. It was even the opinion of the Israeli intelligence services of the time, as shown by Israeli archival documents. As I wrote above, with propagandists like Leumi around the prospect of making this into an accurate article is NIL, so I'm not going to try. -- Zero 01:18, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I have moved this text here:
This books has been thoroughly discredited and should on no account be included in an encyclopedia article as a reference. Here is an excerpt from a review in the The New York Review of Books [5]:
Okay, now, both Leumi and Viajero like dear old Uncle Ed, right? So, make me happy and work out a way of including this idea that you both can agree on! -- Uncle Ed 23:23, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Ed: Refugees don't leave their homes because they want a holiday; they leave because they are FORCED to go. Otherwise, they would stay home. It is not a claim, it is a fact. -- Viajero 23:25, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Here is some enlightening information : In an article "Deir Yassin a casualty of guns and propaganda", by Paul Holmes (Reuters) ( http://www.metimes.com/issue98-16/reg/deir.html) he interviewing Mohammed Radwan, who was a resident of Deir Yassi in 1948, and fought for several hours before ruing out of bullets.
In the book "War Without End", by Anton La Guardia (Thomas Dunne Books, N.Y. 2000) we find the following: "Just before Israel's 50th anniversary celebration, I went to Deir Yassin with Ayish Zeidan, known as Haj Ayish, who had lived in the village as a teenager.
He said he never believed that more than 110 people had died at Deir Yassin, and accused Arab leaders of exaggerating the atrocities.
Leumi 23:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Look, I've removed the following sentence: Many fled of their own volition; others were driven from their homes, prior to and during the war. out until we can come to a conclusion on it Viajero. If we're moving the Peters information out till then, then you can't have a double standard by keeping that in, alright? Leumi 23:39, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've protected the page so things can cool down for a while. Angela . 01:07, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This edit war seems to be a rehash of what has already been rehashed at Palestinian exodus which in my humble opinion is a better article to rehash the rehash. BL 12:18, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
See
Talk:Palestinian Exodus for the questions.
I think there are two major issues of contention in this article. The first is this sentence:
Many fled of their own volition; others claim they were driven from their homes, prior to and during the war.
Now the addition of "claim they" seems to be the problem. This addition was supported, if I recall correctly, in principle by user User:Ed Poor and myself. The rationale was that the claim that they had been forcibly driven from their homes was by no means a fact, and as such should be mentioned as a claim, in order so that, in Ed's words, "Wikipedia isn't supporting (or rejecting) the claim". I agree wholeheartedly. (Ed, if I'm misrepresenting your position hear, or it's changed, just tell me please. It's definitely not my intent) Zero007 contends that he believes that the claim is true and that he thinks that that is the belief of the majority of historians. Viajero thinks that as fear causing someone to leave their home quantifies as psychological pressure, it should be considered "forced" even if it wasn't an issue of "forced at gunpoint".
In response to Zero007, it's not our business to decide the accuracy of a claim, and furthermore I heavily dispute the claim that the majority of historians believe that they were expelled. There is a substantial mainstream perpective that holds that they were not expelled, and by writing it as a fact, we introduce POV language. In response to Viajero, the term "fled" is sufficient to imply they were running from something. You claim that psychological pressure qualifies as force as well. While one could say that is semantically correct, it is by no means practically so and will leave the reader with a mistaken impression. "claim they" does not promote or reject the claim. That's the first major issue of contention. I'll post the second very shortly. I just want to get this down first. Leumi 04:38, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
A "refugee" is someone who is unable to return, for whatever reason. The reason they left is irrelevant - maybe they were on holidays or on a business trip. If they could return they wouldn't be "refugees". The issue is, what is keeping them from returning. And we all know what that is.
Having just exposed an example of deliberate distortion of Morris's book by OneVoice, I come here to find another. Why can't we just ban this fanatic and be rid of him?
So here we see that OneVoice has suppressed the fact that Morris gave a wide range of possible values. Why should we accept this sort of behaviour?
In addition to this crime, OneVoice also made another error which might not have been deliberate. The value of 750,000 refers to the total population movement up to the end of the 1948-9 war, since it is calculated from comparisons of the Arab population before and after and also from UN registration of refugees in 1949. Some (30,000 according to one source given by Morris) of the 30,000-90,000 were people who returned before the end of the war and so are not included in the 750,000. --
Zero 04:06, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Let bring the full data. Benny Morris, Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956. Page 39, footnote 45. In this footnote to the number of refugees illegally settling in Israel, Benny Morris brings several numbers each one with its own time span. Only one number is attributed to more that one person. That numbers is 90,000 refugees. No additional information regarding the source is provided by Morris. "Some Israeli officials spoke of as many as 90,000 resettling infiltrators." 90,000/750,000 =~ 12%.
One person "said in late 1953 that some 30,000 refugees had illegally resettled in Israel in the second half of 1948 and early 1949 and another 20,000 had resettled since. (emphasis added. That totals to 50,000 by late 1953 per this source.
The third source "estimate, by mid-1951 between 28,500 and 41,500 Arabs had succeeded in infiltrating and resettling." By mid-1951 which is two years prior to the period end date cited in the article.
Which means we an intermediate data point of 28,500-41,500 no later than mid 1951, and we have between 50,000 and 90,000 over the period 1948-1953.
Morris provides another reason to believe these numbers are low. "when an Israeli Arab woman died, her relatives would refrain from informing the authorities and smuggle in a refugee woman to take her identity and place: 'This custom has resulted in a situation that, in some Arab villages, women have simply ceased to die.'"
It is unclear why Morris uses the 30,000 number at all. Only if infiltration allowed in no more than 1,500 over the course of two years is it possible to obtain a number as low as 30,000.
OneVoice 10:44, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"A few years earlier, a Jordanian Baathist MP, Abdullah Nawas, had said in 1952 that "We shall be most insistent in perpetuating the Palestine problem as a life question ... The Palestine war continues by dint of the refugees only. Their existence leaves the problem open." What's the source of this quote? Google only gives [7] and [8], and I trust neither, especially given that they themselves give no source for the quote or the translation. - Mustafaa 08:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This is a really great article. I am interested in "During the period mid-1948-53 between 30,000 and 90,000 refugees made their way illegally from their countries of exile to resettle in their former villages or in other Israeli Arab villages", does anyone have more information on this? Colin Carr 21:04, 1 May 2004 (UTC)