This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is arak really common among Palestinians. I know that Palestinians are not particularly religious, but the commonly drink alcohol? Basejumper 15:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In a GA on cuisine, I would really like to know more about the cuisine history, as well as the structure of meals and some information on codified cookbooks, including the history and significance of these cookbooks to the cuisine. I'd also like to hear a little about cuisine prepared in professional restaurants, what styles of restaurants are there and who does the cooking in them. Palestinian restaurant directory -- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC ( talk) 18:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Unfortunately, when taken together, the concerns regarding tone, original research and lack of broadness of coverage are too important to allow for this article to be passed at this time, or even placed on hold. It looks very good on the surface, a solid B article, but a closer inspection raises some serious questions. Therefore, I am failing the article at this time. If you feel that this review is in error, you make take it to good article reassessment. Once these concerns have been addressed, it may be renominated. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 22:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the French and Italian cuisines and I choose the latter to base on as far as article structure goes. It might take more than a couple of days before I renominate it. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your support! I'm going to ask another user (who specializes in copyediting) that helped me bring Yasser Arafat to featured article to see what he can do as far as MoS and grammar are concerned. It might take a little longer than a couple of days however, depending on whether he is busy or not. I'm still going to see what I could do to provide some history of the cuisine in the article though. I was thinking, maybe I could write about the history of (Greater) Syrian cuisine (which I'm sure has sources) or do think that wouldn't be really appropriate for this particular article? Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 23:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Then thats what I will do and start hopefully tomorrow. You said you have access to resources - by any chance would you have on on Syrian/Arab cuisines? I'm going to look on the internet as well. Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 00:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The book is listed in the Further reading section of the article, however, I do not own it. Once you have it, writing the article will be much easier since books provide much more info. Hopefully theres a menton of history in the book. I am very excited to see in what information you have to offer. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 03:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks very good! A few suggestions:
Otherwise it's looking pretty good (at least, without an in-depth review). A little more work and this should be a viable GA candidate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Really! I have a friend who owns that book and I can simply borrow it from him. Thanks for suggesting that!
Yes I heard Abu Ghosh is indeed famous for that. I already spotted a ref or two that has Abu Ghosh in it, so finding it won't be so hard. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 17:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, he certainly is quite the character, I will obtain the book in two days max. As for Abu Ghosh, I added a segment about its famed hummus in the Dips and side dishes section. Thanks for the compliment, I would also like to congratulate you and Tiamut on your work in the Palestinian costumes article. The Palestinian culture topic on wikipedia is dramatically increasing in context and quality, lets strive to bring as many articles as we can to GA status. Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 02:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I don´t believe there are any books/studies that address this specific issue....however, there are lots and lots of traveller -accounts from the "Holy Land"/Palestine. Some of those traveller accounts describe the local food. Now, there are two greater "repositories" of texts of old books online which I know of:
....both places you can go and enter the word "Palestine", or "Holy Land", or whatever, and search for those words in the books. Actually: I suspect that there is material for the writing of a great book on the history of the cuisine of Palestine to be gleaned from all of those books......just one "small" problem: that book isn´t written yet!
Anyway, I have not looked at gutenberg this time (yet), but I have looked at the University of Michigan files, and lately I have linked to books when the writers have their biography on wikipedia:
.....of these books I would say that Prime is the easiest read, while Robinson is by far the most important.
"They were dining in the true oriental, and, as it would seem, official style. A very large circular tray of tinned copper, placed upon a coarse wooden stool about a foot high, served as the table. In the centre of this stood a large tray or dish with a mountain of pillaw, composed of rice boiled and buttered, with small pieces of meat strewed through and upon it. This was the chief dish, although there were also smaller dishes, both of meat and vegetables. Around this table ten persons, including the three governors were seated.."
"Dinner was soon served. A large napkin was spread upon the carpet of the room; on this was placed a coarse wooden stool, supporting a large tray of tinted copper. Bread in thin sheets was laid for each person on the napkin below. On the tray were three dishes of pillaw without meat; three dishes of mutton stewed with onions; three dishes of a kind of sausage, stuffed with rice and chopped meat, and a large bowl of lebben or soured milk."
Elijah Porter Barrows isn´t all that interesting for our purposes, but he has a nice quote from H.B. Trisdam (1865) The Land of Israel, a Journal of Travels in Palestine. p. 262, 263, describing a feast among the Bedouin Arabs on the shore of the Dead Sea (that must have been in 1858):
"Dinner was brought. This consisted of a single course, served in a huge bowl about a yard in diameter. The bottom was filled with thin flat cakes, thinner than oak-cakes, and which overhung the sides as graceful drapery. On them was heaped boiled rice, saturated with butter and soup, while the disjecta membra (dissected parts) of the sheep which had been slain for the occasion were piled in a cone overall"
Elizabeth Rundle Charles, 1866, isn´t that interesting either, but she does speak of the p.328 "flat unleavened cakes (such as were often prepared for us)"
Al AlmerSon: I don´t know if you can use any of this, feel free to use it or not as you please. Oh, and there are many, many other travel-accounts out there in full text; perhaps we should collect them on a page connected to the Pal.project.page?? Anyway, take care, regards, Huldra ( talk) 09:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Useful to nearly all readers. A good treatment of the subject. No obvious problems, gaps, excessive information. Adequate for most purposes, but other encyclopedias could do a better job
Theres obviously not a single encyclopedia that could do a better job, so I believe this helps its candidacy for being a good article. If you don't see any blatant problems with the article, I will nominate it ASAP. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently reviewing this article for the good article nomination. Comments below are welcome. Bless sins ( talk) 16:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing the article. I just want to mention that the history section is just about as far as it can get since there are no published sources on Palestinian cuisine. There is a book by Christiane Dabdoub Nasser, but no one seems to own it and there is no guarantee that it has info on the cuisine's history. Sorry :(. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 17:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is written reasonably well, in a style English speaking people will be familiar with. There may be several spelling mistakes.
Almost all the content is sourced. The sources are verifiable. There is a variety in references (more than the good article Italian cuisine, which is based only on 5 sources). Since this article doesn't present controversial information the level of reliability of sources used seems appropriate. There are some concerns:
The coverage is quite broad. It contains the basic elements: History, regional variations, meal structure, cuisine on special occasions, and commercial cuisine (e.g. dining out).
The article is neutral. With beverages, it presents the views of of both Muslims and Christians.
This article is very stable. More than 80% of edits are made by one user (Al Ameer son).
Well-illustrated, this article certainly does not lack images. I don't see any copyright violations.
I'm in favor of passing this article. Are there any objections of further comments? Bless sins ( talk) 22:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the Arabic translation since the article topic is really not a specific Arabic term. Translations are usually only relevant if the article title is a foreign loanword or a proper noun. In this case it is neither.
Peter Isotalo 11:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently trying to translate this article into another language, but there seems to be a bit of a problem: the 3rd reference is given as "le Strange...", but there's nothing on this article (like a Bibliography section, for example) to which this reference actually refers to in itself. Can whoever provided this reference please make a bibliography section, or at least actually write the name of the work in the reference itself? Thanks in advance. 82.45.225.98 ( talk) 21:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
"slightly sour Arabic yogurt drink" (in the 'Galilee' section) <- Does this refer to ayran? If so it would make the article miles better if the name 'ayran' were actually mentioned. 82.45.225.98 ( talk) 00:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The article doesn't currently cover seasonal mainstays of Palestinian cuisine; ingredients collected from the wild like akub (gundelia) and illit (dandelion), among others. I added something at Gundelia about its culinary use and the sources cited there have more info that could be useful here. Will also try to look for other sources for other items. My time is limited though. Any help would be appreciated, and if not, this is a note to self for the future. Tiamut talk 20:47, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I tried finding the Baklawa in the photo. Baklawa is made with phyllo dough. The cylindrical ones in the center look like "Bird's Nest/Osh el-Bolbol". Next from the center appear to be "Balloriye". Next are white "Bassma" and then cylindrical "Burma/Mabroume". All of these are pastries made with shredded dough or kanafeh. Finally the outer ring appears to be the only ones not made with shredded dough. But they are snow-white topped with a cashew nut. Maybe these are the Baklawa (whose special name I do not know). As for the rest, they are delicious pastries, but not Baklawa. -- @Efrat ( talk) 13:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
The article does not mention the cultural foodways of Palestinian Jews. Only Muslim and Christian. As there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Palestine prior to 1948, can you expand please? It would just add maybe another aspect. I will help to provide sources. Irondome ( talk) 04:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Those that wrote/originated this article want nothing to do with Jews, in fact this whole article is a sop in order to justify something called "Palestinians."
In fact, while the specific Wikipedia article on "Palestinians" insists on their ethnic uniqueness, this article calls Palestinians precisely what they are, Arabs; this obvious discrepancy should be removed despite the fact that it's actually true.
This article ultimately, then, has no necessity to exist; all the foods here listed could just as easily been listed under the articles for Arab, Egyptian and Jordanian cuisine.
Satchmo Sings ( talk) 11:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
that picture is not baklava.its kadayıf actually.
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I am sure this was just an oversight but I moved the "Further reading" section above the "External links" to comply with Order of article elements. Otr500 ( talk) 13:56, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Galilee is in Israel and its Arab population doesn't identify has Palestinian. it seem inappropriate to put this region in israel as of Palestinian cuisine, as we know the political situation, this is probably POV. I propose to move the Galilee paragram on the israeli cuisine#Arabs of Galilee-- Barthélémy VI ( talk) 12:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is arak really common among Palestinians. I know that Palestinians are not particularly religious, but the commonly drink alcohol? Basejumper 15:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
In a GA on cuisine, I would really like to know more about the cuisine history, as well as the structure of meals and some information on codified cookbooks, including the history and significance of these cookbooks to the cuisine. I'd also like to hear a little about cuisine prepared in professional restaurants, what styles of restaurants are there and who does the cooking in them. Palestinian restaurant directory -- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC ( talk) 18:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Unfortunately, when taken together, the concerns regarding tone, original research and lack of broadness of coverage are too important to allow for this article to be passed at this time, or even placed on hold. It looks very good on the surface, a solid B article, but a closer inspection raises some serious questions. Therefore, I am failing the article at this time. If you feel that this review is in error, you make take it to good article reassessment. Once these concerns have been addressed, it may be renominated. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 22:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the French and Italian cuisines and I choose the latter to base on as far as article structure goes. It might take more than a couple of days before I renominate it. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your support! I'm going to ask another user (who specializes in copyediting) that helped me bring Yasser Arafat to featured article to see what he can do as far as MoS and grammar are concerned. It might take a little longer than a couple of days however, depending on whether he is busy or not. I'm still going to see what I could do to provide some history of the cuisine in the article though. I was thinking, maybe I could write about the history of (Greater) Syrian cuisine (which I'm sure has sources) or do think that wouldn't be really appropriate for this particular article? Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 23:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Then thats what I will do and start hopefully tomorrow. You said you have access to resources - by any chance would you have on on Syrian/Arab cuisines? I'm going to look on the internet as well. Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 00:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The book is listed in the Further reading section of the article, however, I do not own it. Once you have it, writing the article will be much easier since books provide much more info. Hopefully theres a menton of history in the book. I am very excited to see in what information you have to offer. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 03:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks very good! A few suggestions:
Otherwise it's looking pretty good (at least, without an in-depth review). A little more work and this should be a viable GA candidate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Really! I have a friend who owns that book and I can simply borrow it from him. Thanks for suggesting that!
Yes I heard Abu Ghosh is indeed famous for that. I already spotted a ref or two that has Abu Ghosh in it, so finding it won't be so hard. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 17:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, he certainly is quite the character, I will obtain the book in two days max. As for Abu Ghosh, I added a segment about its famed hummus in the Dips and side dishes section. Thanks for the compliment, I would also like to congratulate you and Tiamut on your work in the Palestinian costumes article. The Palestinian culture topic on wikipedia is dramatically increasing in context and quality, lets strive to bring as many articles as we can to GA status. Cheers! -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 02:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I don´t believe there are any books/studies that address this specific issue....however, there are lots and lots of traveller -accounts from the "Holy Land"/Palestine. Some of those traveller accounts describe the local food. Now, there are two greater "repositories" of texts of old books online which I know of:
....both places you can go and enter the word "Palestine", or "Holy Land", or whatever, and search for those words in the books. Actually: I suspect that there is material for the writing of a great book on the history of the cuisine of Palestine to be gleaned from all of those books......just one "small" problem: that book isn´t written yet!
Anyway, I have not looked at gutenberg this time (yet), but I have looked at the University of Michigan files, and lately I have linked to books when the writers have their biography on wikipedia:
.....of these books I would say that Prime is the easiest read, while Robinson is by far the most important.
"They were dining in the true oriental, and, as it would seem, official style. A very large circular tray of tinned copper, placed upon a coarse wooden stool about a foot high, served as the table. In the centre of this stood a large tray or dish with a mountain of pillaw, composed of rice boiled and buttered, with small pieces of meat strewed through and upon it. This was the chief dish, although there were also smaller dishes, both of meat and vegetables. Around this table ten persons, including the three governors were seated.."
"Dinner was soon served. A large napkin was spread upon the carpet of the room; on this was placed a coarse wooden stool, supporting a large tray of tinted copper. Bread in thin sheets was laid for each person on the napkin below. On the tray were three dishes of pillaw without meat; three dishes of mutton stewed with onions; three dishes of a kind of sausage, stuffed with rice and chopped meat, and a large bowl of lebben or soured milk."
Elijah Porter Barrows isn´t all that interesting for our purposes, but he has a nice quote from H.B. Trisdam (1865) The Land of Israel, a Journal of Travels in Palestine. p. 262, 263, describing a feast among the Bedouin Arabs on the shore of the Dead Sea (that must have been in 1858):
"Dinner was brought. This consisted of a single course, served in a huge bowl about a yard in diameter. The bottom was filled with thin flat cakes, thinner than oak-cakes, and which overhung the sides as graceful drapery. On them was heaped boiled rice, saturated with butter and soup, while the disjecta membra (dissected parts) of the sheep which had been slain for the occasion were piled in a cone overall"
Elizabeth Rundle Charles, 1866, isn´t that interesting either, but she does speak of the p.328 "flat unleavened cakes (such as were often prepared for us)"
Al AlmerSon: I don´t know if you can use any of this, feel free to use it or not as you please. Oh, and there are many, many other travel-accounts out there in full text; perhaps we should collect them on a page connected to the Pal.project.page?? Anyway, take care, regards, Huldra ( talk) 09:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Useful to nearly all readers. A good treatment of the subject. No obvious problems, gaps, excessive information. Adequate for most purposes, but other encyclopedias could do a better job
Theres obviously not a single encyclopedia that could do a better job, so I believe this helps its candidacy for being a good article. If you don't see any blatant problems with the article, I will nominate it ASAP. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently reviewing this article for the good article nomination. Comments below are welcome. Bless sins ( talk) 16:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing the article. I just want to mention that the history section is just about as far as it can get since there are no published sources on Palestinian cuisine. There is a book by Christiane Dabdoub Nasser, but no one seems to own it and there is no guarantee that it has info on the cuisine's history. Sorry :(. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 17:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is written reasonably well, in a style English speaking people will be familiar with. There may be several spelling mistakes.
Almost all the content is sourced. The sources are verifiable. There is a variety in references (more than the good article Italian cuisine, which is based only on 5 sources). Since this article doesn't present controversial information the level of reliability of sources used seems appropriate. There are some concerns:
The coverage is quite broad. It contains the basic elements: History, regional variations, meal structure, cuisine on special occasions, and commercial cuisine (e.g. dining out).
The article is neutral. With beverages, it presents the views of of both Muslims and Christians.
This article is very stable. More than 80% of edits are made by one user (Al Ameer son).
Well-illustrated, this article certainly does not lack images. I don't see any copyright violations.
I'm in favor of passing this article. Are there any objections of further comments? Bless sins ( talk) 22:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the Arabic translation since the article topic is really not a specific Arabic term. Translations are usually only relevant if the article title is a foreign loanword or a proper noun. In this case it is neither.
Peter Isotalo 11:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm currently trying to translate this article into another language, but there seems to be a bit of a problem: the 3rd reference is given as "le Strange...", but there's nothing on this article (like a Bibliography section, for example) to which this reference actually refers to in itself. Can whoever provided this reference please make a bibliography section, or at least actually write the name of the work in the reference itself? Thanks in advance. 82.45.225.98 ( talk) 21:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
"slightly sour Arabic yogurt drink" (in the 'Galilee' section) <- Does this refer to ayran? If so it would make the article miles better if the name 'ayran' were actually mentioned. 82.45.225.98 ( talk) 00:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The article doesn't currently cover seasonal mainstays of Palestinian cuisine; ingredients collected from the wild like akub (gundelia) and illit (dandelion), among others. I added something at Gundelia about its culinary use and the sources cited there have more info that could be useful here. Will also try to look for other sources for other items. My time is limited though. Any help would be appreciated, and if not, this is a note to self for the future. Tiamut talk 20:47, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I tried finding the Baklawa in the photo. Baklawa is made with phyllo dough. The cylindrical ones in the center look like "Bird's Nest/Osh el-Bolbol". Next from the center appear to be "Balloriye". Next are white "Bassma" and then cylindrical "Burma/Mabroume". All of these are pastries made with shredded dough or kanafeh. Finally the outer ring appears to be the only ones not made with shredded dough. But they are snow-white topped with a cashew nut. Maybe these are the Baklawa (whose special name I do not know). As for the rest, they are delicious pastries, but not Baklawa. -- @Efrat ( talk) 13:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
The article does not mention the cultural foodways of Palestinian Jews. Only Muslim and Christian. As there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Palestine prior to 1948, can you expand please? It would just add maybe another aspect. I will help to provide sources. Irondome ( talk) 04:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Those that wrote/originated this article want nothing to do with Jews, in fact this whole article is a sop in order to justify something called "Palestinians."
In fact, while the specific Wikipedia article on "Palestinians" insists on their ethnic uniqueness, this article calls Palestinians precisely what they are, Arabs; this obvious discrepancy should be removed despite the fact that it's actually true.
This article ultimately, then, has no necessity to exist; all the foods here listed could just as easily been listed under the articles for Arab, Egyptian and Jordanian cuisine.
Satchmo Sings ( talk) 11:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
that picture is not baklava.its kadayıf actually.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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I have just modified 2 external links on Palestinian cuisine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:10, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
I am sure this was just an oversight but I moved the "Further reading" section above the "External links" to comply with Order of article elements. Otr500 ( talk) 13:56, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Galilee is in Israel and its Arab population doesn't identify has Palestinian. it seem inappropriate to put this region in israel as of Palestinian cuisine, as we know the political situation, this is probably POV. I propose to move the Galilee paragram on the israeli cuisine#Arabs of Galilee-- Barthélémy VI ( talk) 12:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)