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section 3.4 "The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine".
This WP article says: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations, [etc] ...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration"... but...
the sources I'll review after this paragraph tell us that this sentence from the WP article should say: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations [etc]... conclude at some points [1] that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase," not to any substantial immigration, but the same sources conclude the opposite at other points.[2]
REASONS/PROOF:
[1] The WP article already gives one link, to Capmag.com reviewing a book by Joan Peters, which takes the position that Arab immigration WAS a significant factor in Arab population growth in Palestine. Yet this WP article ironically says only the OPPOSITE of what their source, Peters/capmag, says, by selectively quoting one footnote from Peters/capmag and ignoring the broader view of what Peters/Capmag presented. (see http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=2138 <--contrast the link I gave there, versus the link a Wikipedian gave to the footnote only.)
[2] Note that the following are excerpts from the very same official "reports made to the Mandatory Administration" (to quote the Wikipedia article):
The Wikipedia article as it currently reads says that these "reports made to the Mandatory Administration...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration" and these 3 things I've quoted show these reports concluding THE OPPOSITE.
This is the only country that has geographical map instead of political. I think some kosher people are trying to make people forget about UN-recognized borders of Palestine. I am very disappointed and angry about this kosher influence on reaching the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.226.97 ( talk) 06:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me first say that the word kosher is an adjective that cannot refer to people only inanimate objects. You are clearly an antisemite who knows little of what you are speaking about. Palestine is currently recognized by 97 countries but not the United Nations. Please refer to the United Nations list of recognized nations for further details about your own ignorance.
This article is about the region of Palestine, not the proposed state. Goalie1998 ( talk) 17:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Spare us the 'anti-semitic' tirade, it's old. - Now, you must keep in mind that a few well known nation states are not recognized formally and have no membership in the United Nations; North Korea for example.
Are you to tell me that North Korea does not exist?
Further, Some people would argue that 'Palestine' (inia) has never been a country, even during the life of the Roman Empire it was nothing more than a small tract of land regulated but not officially recognized --- But then again, Judea was never an official nation either there was never a nation called Judea recognized by the powers of the day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 04:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
under "British Mandate" the pic is displaying over top the first line of text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.249.237 ( talk) 19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Max —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.156.227 ( talk) 04:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The name "Palestine" was not used by the Romans before Hadrian (135 BCE). However, this Wikipedia entry talks about a piece of land that has been called so many different things through time and refers to it as 'Palestine'. Palestine in Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya-5000 BCE), Bronze Age, Iron Age, Hebrew Bible, Persian rule, .. into Classical antiquity where eventually, in 135 BCE Hadrian calls it Palestine. Seems kind of like saying 'Palestine has always been there'. Not true.
Absolutely true. The area was Israel, not Palestine, for over 1000 years before Roman rule. This article is ridiculous in labeling the land Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 ( talk) 04:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no solid evidence that Israel as a nation ever existed in ancient times other than biblical texts. - The area of Judea and Palestine were never officially recognized as nation states by any ancient powers. - Both Judea and Palestine were nothing more than 'regions' within old Empires.
Please - show us one shred of historical evidence to support the existence of an ancient 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli' nation. - Cannot do it because they never existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 05:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
The first introduction of this name was by the Romans in 135 AD. After crushing the second Jewish revolt and exiling the Jews from Judea, Jerusalem's name was changed to Aelia Capitolina and Judea ("land of the Jews") was changed to Palestine in order to spite the Jews and in commemoration of their historical arch rivals - the Philistines. The Philistines were part of the sea nations that reaked havoc around the mediteranean in 1200 BCE. They are totally unrelated to Arab Palestinians of modern day or any other Semetic people and are related to Cartage (see Pune wars) and Pheonicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.118.48.248 ( talk) 10:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Still, the name "Palestine" has been the official name for more than twice the time it was called "Judea". The name "Canaan" is still older and used as frequently as "Judea" in historical sources, so it clearly has seniority. MeteorMaker ( talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I added back info on Twain's account and Christoson's reaction to it. These were apparently deleted inadvertently in a revert war back in November. If we're going to keep Twain's account, we need to put it in context. Thank you, Jgui ( talk) 17:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I added a link to chapter 1 of Twains Tom Sawyer Abroad to the article. Twain ridiculed Christian and Jewish claims to Arab land: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/marktwain/TomSawyerAbroad/Chap1.html harlan ( talk) 12:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I note that Costa Rica has recognized diplomatically a Palestinian state.[ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958208.html The Associated Press,'Israeli diplomat postpones meeting after Costa Rica recognizes Palestinian state,' Haaretz 26/02/2008 ]
Where does one put this? Nishidani ( talk) 10:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Judea was a region within the Roman Empire - it had various inhabitants and they were called Judean's not "Jews".
2. Judea, like Palestine - Was a region within the Roman Empire (and other earlier and later empires) and was never, ever, recognized as a nation state.
3. The Romans already had control of Judea - they did not need to 'conquer' it in the year 135 AD. -- Furthermore, "Jews" were not dispersed from the entire region of Judea. There is absolutely no historical evidence to support such a wild claim. --All that is known is that Titus (who reigned long before 135 AD) went to war, destroyed the temple, and killed the rebels. --Standard Roman fare for the day and was not a 'dispersal.'
4. - "In order to distance it from the Judeans" - Who were, majority, not Jewish but PAGANS.
Josephus writes about Titus'es war. - He did not slaughter an entire region, give us a break. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 05:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
When the Romans conquered Judea and dispersed the Jews, they called the land "palestine" after the philistines and in order to distance it from the Jews. 99.237.190.52 ( talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Nanette
.Today, Palestine is often used to refer to a state, though it has yet to secure full formal statehood, and does yet meet the usual criteria governing the classic definition of a state. Notwithstanding the technical issue, a Palestinian state entity, whose precise boundaries are not yet agreed upon, has gained recognition as a diplomatic reality from over 100 countries in the world'.
The policy of conspiracy of 'Cloak & Dagger' adopted after Balfour to turn the declaration into a fact , is a fact or fiction? If it is a fact, was it replaced by or added to the "with us or not" policy adopted since September 2001? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.112 ( talk) 17:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The Zionist occupation is built upon this. It is built upon using cloak and dagger concepts to come and destroy land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.234.146 ( talk) 09:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Good morning, Administrators and Fellow Locked-out Ones.
— The event known to most of the world as "the catastrophe" (to Arabs: "Nakba") should be mentioned at least as early as the '47 partition, including the 1948 Deir Yassin Massacre.
— Also, there is no mention of Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century. Instead, pseudo-scholars like Howard Sachar and Justin McCarthy are used almost exclusively throughout—including a section on "Arab Immigration to Palestine"(???); while merely a trace of contradictory Palestinian history is included within practically the entire article. This article is not neutral by any stretch: it is state-worship, namely, for the state of Israel.
This is not to say that Sachar, McCarthy, et al., should be outright deleted; but, it would be proper to include references to the mainstream scholars whose analyses differ from theirs. And how many times are pro-Israeli sources cited, like JewishVirtualLibrary and such? This is not scholarship; it is calculated agitprop.
"Historians" like Sachar and McCarthy are known to diminish Palestinian existence and claims to their land, and regularly apologize for Israel and Turkey—especially in relating certain events that are seen as ethnic cleansings by most of the world (e.g., Armenian Genocide, Palestinian Nakba, Deir Yassin, the 1967–present Israeli occupation). Even Israeli historians whose works are known to read as state-apologetics will say the Palestinian catastrophe was not mostly a result of Jordanian and Egyptian authorities telling Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes. A majority of respected historians the world over nominally agree that Zionist terror gangs ("terrorist organizations") drove most Palestinians off their land, beginning many years—even decades—before Deir Yassin and other Nakba-era atrocities. In all, a couple-hundred-thousand (at least) villagers were forced out through Zionist terror throughout the first half of the 20th century.
These are events that even Turkish and Israeli officials have admitted to carrying out: Menachim Begin, for example, did not deny massacres like Deir Yassin, and even detailed the larger strategy of conquest of the West Bank and Gaza as it was carried out by him and other Zionist militants who later became Israeli officials; yet, there is no mention of the Nakba or Deir Yassin in the current article. Shame. Even the trace mentioning of Zionist terror gangs is within the context of attempting to exonerate Israel of wrongdoing.
Wikipedia used to reflect a balance of mainstream, independent, and official accounts in its articles covering Levantine conflicts and histories. What happened?
It should be brought back; otherwise, the whole shabang—the article, the guidelines for editing it, and the page for discussing both—will simply appear as tools for marginalizing accounts that differ from state-approved agitprop.
Respectfully, Blogger4Liberty ( talk) 06:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The discussion of the Philistines is silly and irrelevant since Palestinians and Philistines have no historical relationship with each other. The article was extremely wordy and had to be revised-- three sentences were used when a word could have sufficed. It was also argumentative, eg. calling Israel Palestine. It is not. It was Palestine, from 1918-1948 but then it became Israel. Wishing does not make it otherwise. Also, the origin of the term Palestine was swept under the rug. For example, while authors went on and on about the Philistines (irrelevant) there was not mention that Palestine came to be not by Arabs but by Roman conquerors in 70 CE and that was corrected. My computer lacks tildes so I will sign it bigleaguer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigleaguer ( talk • contribs) 18:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The West Bank is occupied. The Gaza strip is not occupied physically or legally by Israel. Thus, in line 4, when the WB & Gaza are collectively referred to (in the piped text for the link to Occupied Palestine), they cannot be called "occupied territories".
(funny but Jewish peoples started to enter palestine in the recent past declaring it "their" land in 1897 and in 1917 proclaimed it their own country. : http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm
They can be called "disputed territories" (their legal staus, under current international law), "palestinian territories" (I don't like this because it can be confusing, but it enjoys widespread usage and so is acceptable), or "West Bank and Gaza Strip" (written out and not referred to as a collective group). Smaug 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
"The stress is phenomenal," said Eyad El Sarraj, a psychologist and director of Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, one of the groups filing the petition. "The Israelis do it after midnight and then every one or two hours. You try to go to sleep and then there's another one. When it happens night after night you become exhausted. You get a heightened sense of alert, waiting continuously for it to happen. People suffer hypertension, fatigue, sleeplessness.
"For children, the loud noise means danger. Adults may know it's only a sound but small children feel threatened. They are crying and clinging to their parents. Afterwards they are dazed and fearful, waiting for something to happen."
The UN Palestinian refugee agency said a majority of the patients seen at its clinics as a result of the sonic booms were under 16 and suffering from symptoms such as anxiety attacks, bedwetting, muscle spasms, temporary loss of hearing and breathing difficulties.[...]The Palestinian health ministry estimates the sonic booms have caused at least 20 miscarriages.''
Note 14,only underlines the tenuousness indeed parlousness of any attempt by Wiki editors to alter the terminological status quo. It reads in part (undoing your own confident assertions).
. Last week, I asked Secretary-General Ban whether he considers Gaza to be occupied, and he wisely sidestepped the question, highlighting instead the dire humanitarian conditions inside the strip.With this fast-changing, increasingly ominous state of affairs, the word "occupation" is meaningless, a State Department official told me recently. Definitions in various, at times conflicting, sets of international treaties and agreements known as "international law" are also inconclusive. In the read of some legal scholars, the fact that the Israelis control Gaza's air, sea, and telecommunications indicates that their occupation there is not over. Opponents cite a 1907 Hague treaty that defines occupied territory as one "actually placed under the authority of the hostile army"; and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which holds that occupation ends when the controlling power no longer "exercises the functions of government" over the territory in question.Like religious scriptures, so-called international law requires much wise interpretation, and, unlike in the case of the American Constitution, there is no credible world Supreme Court to determine a correct reading. BENNY AVNI The O Word: Is Gaza Occupied Territory? February 11, 2008
(unindent) I make no claims of these links being RSs, and did not bring them to prove a point, only as interesting reads. Just a note - traditions, even long, don't determine what words we should or shouldn't use.
The solution here should be in making sure that whatever words we end up using, the facts should be made clear to the reader in the text. Meaning, we shouldn't simply say "Gaza is occupied", but explain what that means, that Israel disputes that claim, and why. okedem ( talk) 08:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
As a geographical, apolitical term, in its broadest application, Palestine can be used to refer to 'ancient Palestine', an area that includes contemporary Israel and the area today referred to as the Palestinian territories.
There seems to be discussion on Arab immigration, yet at the same time there was large scale Jewish immigration into the region as well. Perhaps we should also discuss that. Bless sins ( talk) 01:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"this is demonstrated by the continued existence of the rabbinical academy of Lydda in Judea" is incorrect. The rabbinical academy was in Iamnia (Jamnia, modern day Yavne), not Lyddia ( modern day Lod).
As can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavne —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guysoffer ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The Canaanite and it's Phoenician offspring were vibrant civilizations. Why is their era left unmentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
How can it be referred to as "ancient Palestine?" Pre-Israel it was called Canaan and Philistines lived there, not Palestinians. It wasn't until the Romans conquered Israel that they named in Palestine. Is that what you mean by "ancient?" I'm not sure the word is appropriate as it makes it sound older than Israel and has political connotations. Susanthedefender ( talk) 09:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
In the section called hebrew bible period there is only a mention of one way Israelites came to exist. However, there are other POVs and additional two mentioned in a link in this this paragraph: 1- Isralites were nomads in the neighbouring transjordanian desert. 2- Trditional biblical view that they came from egypt. The 1st one is the most widely accepted among achaelogists. And There is also achaelogical evidence supporting the second account. Since the page is locked I was unable to add anything, however I suggest this additional info be added and I can provide refernces for the first account. Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Needs to be added to Category:Former countries in Asia
NOT a geographical area. Palestine is a country, above your noses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.43.214 ( talk) 20:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There are several items that I think could be incorporated:
'1. Steps will be taken immediately to prepare for the evacuation by the British Army of Syria and Cilicia including the Taurus tunnel. 2. Notice is given both to the French Government and to the Emir Feisal of our intentions to commence the evacuation of Syria and Cilicia on November 1, 1919'... ...6. The territories occupied by British troops will then be Palestine, defined in accordance with its ancient boundaries of Dan to Beersheba.' 'text of the Aide-Me'moire'
This site is full of maps and old people. Are there no children left in Palestine? No schools? Please upload an image we could use on other Wikepedia languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llywelyn2000 ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
it shows Golan as part of occupied Palestine instead of Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.135 ( talk) 14:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The "Faisal-Clemenceau accords" is mentioned on this page, and there's a small amount of information reagrding the accords at: http://www.swisscorner.com/wiki.php?title=1920_Palestine_riots
Can create a link to this page. Hat4rack ( talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)hat4rack Hat4rack ( talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with this terminology because I don't believe 'Greater Israel' is clear enough on it's own since it doesn't even exist in Hebrew and seems to be used by some to refer to the biblical promise and by others to Israel HaShlema. Perhaps we should clarify with a bit of source searching (talk page discussion) if the term is actually used for 'Palestine' or if it is used for something else (far larger). After this is clarified, if it is determined that we should add the term, then an article explanation that this term is quite ambiguous should probably be added it would be bad to suggest that "from the Nile to the Euphrates" is a term "used to refer to all or part of this [Palestine] area" since it is clearly not. p.s. What do you think of other nicknames of the place such as "Eretz Tsion"? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
As currently written, the phrasing used in the first paragraph of this section doesn't seem to accurately reflect the sources that the information is drawn from; specifically references #31 and #33. While the initial set of dates given is quite correct, there is a certain lack of clarity in the way the findings are presented. It now reads:
I would like to propose the following change, with the approval and assistance of regular contributors (changes in bold type for easy comparison):
It's my hope that the rewording and small addition will make the chronology a bit more clear. I'm also open to other suggestions of course, and since the article is locked, will need some help from a regular to make any changes that are agreeable. Thanks for your consideration! 67.173.185.224 ( talk) 17:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I had made this suggestion many weeks ago when I wasn't logged in. Since no one has objected in the past 3 months, I went ahead and made the change. Doc Tropics 01:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
ok - first of all i do not wish to edit any of this page, nor is my intention to cause argument of a political kind. If you feel you will read this without being able to put religion aside, then please do not read anymore of my post
i am also neutral in the argument of ownership of these lands around this area, but if questioned would blame my own european ancestors for causing much of the disagreement which reigns there, going as far back as the crusades and the occupations of Cyprus and Malta right up until the 1920's and 30's
In archeology and history in general we have primary secondary and tertiary evidences.
it has been shown, for example, the the walls of "Jericho" were eroded over many hundreds of year after the city was abandoned and that people settled there some 300-400 years after abandonment. This was proven by archaeological research. we also have primary evidence from Kenyon, Garstang and Wood of various collapses and re buildings, settlement and desertion of the site which provide this primary evidence in the form of bones, pottery, seeds, tablets (stone etc) buildings and burning evidence, however people must separate conclusions (opinions such as was it fire earthquakes or other reasons) drawn from these factual evidences. http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/kenyon/ http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/index.htm http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/06/The-Walls-of-Jericho.aspx here many of the articles contain photos and sketches which may be enlightening.
The Bible for one thing is neither Palestinian nor Jewish and so cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate Palestinian or Jewish history. Secondly it is not possible to rely upon quotes from the bible as accurate historical record. Many of the writings were a considerable time after events and were not written by people who were there at the time, making them tertiary evidence.
i am not raising these points for any reason other than to point out that wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference source, and should contain non-fictional work as the basis of its actions.
I understand that people are entitled to their beliefs but fact and belief must remain separate when they do not agree and it is dangerous to confuse the two things
I applaud the actions of the writers of this page for their continued scholarly work, devoid of fiction and supported by fact. It is impressive that this page reaches such a high state of truths seperating fiction from archaeological evidence.
Chaosdruid ( talk) 16:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Great article, thanks! I'm missing reference to Jaffa_Riots, Hebron_Massacre and 1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine.
Daonb ( talk) 08:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the original letter from Lord Balfour made no mention of a "Promise", "Exchange for Financial Support" or "War against Ottomans and Germans" Shaldonbridge ( talk) 17:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
It says in the article: "... British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the controversial Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised to establish a Jewish state in Palestine". The Balfour Declaration of 1917 refers to a "national home for the Jewish people", not to a Jewish state, and subsequent official statements by the British government further clarify that a "Jewish state" was not formally intended.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 08:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
"The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area." The archeologist Turville was responsible for the findings he named "galilee man" in 1925 in the Zuttiyeh Cave. He never published in his papers or coined the term "palestine man". The footnotes are links to either dead sites or too vague to be verified. Please either insert a reliable source for this term or remove it. Eframgoldberg ( talk) 09:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
People around here usually refer to that region as Bilad al-Sham, not greater Syria..Infact I've never heard that name around here. I think we should add the name Bilad al-Sham or Al Sham or Sham to the names list. radiant guy ( talk) 05:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
considering the vested interests, this page retains a degree of integrity that is a credit to all its regular contributors. I wouldn't expect this wikipage to be non-contentious until all the real issues about this piece of land are settled - The sooner the better. Sadly, with such loaded content, it seems that the grammar and readability of the page is suffering. phrases such as 'a name used already much earlier' and 'However, already under British rule and even more after the foundation of Israel, Zionists came to consciously and vehemently reject' give the impression of an amateur essay. Anyone care to consolidate the grammar? 82.24.57.18 ( talk) 14:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Is the information in this edit correct? Goalie1998 ( talk) 05:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Not meaning to intrude or confuse, but I just noted, based on a quick Ctrl-F, that the word ‘ nationalism’ occurs only once in this article. Although not completely conversant on the subject of how that word may relate to these contents, I was somewhat surprised to find the sole reference mentioned ‘Samaritan nationalism’; it seemed somehow undue, based on my general knowledge. This is by no means conclusive regarding article content, but I somehow relate various other competing nationalisms with this specific geography.
How this apparent imbalance might best be remedied by consensus is up to more involved editors, but I note on a basic level that media usage of the term abruptly diminished in 1948, with different political usage of new terms, while the geographic limits remained broadly the same. I further note that various pieces that resulted are not now included in the lede and/or in ‘Names and boundaries’; possibly they should be. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I have included a relevant missing source in ‘Non-Biblical texts’; this seems to be the place for it. The prose may require some tweaking, but I believe both refs should remain included, since they appear to provide different spins from differing povs. It would be nice to have such a map ([[File:Faisal-Weizmann_map.png]]) available, but there appear to be some discrepancies, which also have been noted here. I guess we will wait. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 08:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The article quotes an entire passage from an article by one Meir Abelson. Abelson is not a historian of any standing. The quoted article is little more than a political pamphlet that makes no effort to hide its agenda. Even worse, entire passages from the quoted article are lifted from W. B. Ziff, The Rape of Palestine, 1938, without citing the source. A quote from a plagiarized and politically slanted text by an unknown "researcher" compromises the quality of this article. I'm sure a better source can be found to reflect Kaiser Wilhelm's impressions, if indeed it is necessary. I would like to remove this quote, if nobody objects.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 20:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia,
Regarding Wikipedia's main article entitled "Palestine" - a glaring inaccuracy is contained within the text which sub-heads the article's first arial (NASA) map of the region...! Viz: Among the clockwise list of surrounding countries claimed to border Palestine - (the map's central focus) - not only is Iran incorrectly include but Iraq is omitted...!! Whereas, in fact, the Iranian border, at its closest point, lies some 2-300 statute miles due East (of Palestine) and thus is nowhere in frame...!!!
PASTED BELOW FROM YOUR ORIGINAL: [This Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) image from the Terra satellite shows the Mediterranean Sea (left) and portions of the Middle East. Countries pictured are (clockwise from top right) Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt (across the Gulf of Aqaba), Israel, the disputed West Bank Territory, and Lebanon.]
That apart, however - please accept my sincere congratulations on your superb coverage (as usual...!) in every other particular.
Best regards
John Jay ( 90.202.153.242 ( talk) 17:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC))
Kat73, I appreciate where you are comming from and I think I agree with the general idea of putting Palestinian information first in a Palestinian-cetric article - good point. The rewrite of the lead was a little too jumbled for me. you got into mixing up geographical and political motivations and it got a little too incongruous. If you want to try, go ahead but try to keep all the regional references in one paragraph and all the political ones in the second paragraph, that will help anyone reading keep the two subjects separate in their head. Padillah ( talk) 13:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Please learn how to spell properly and use capital letters, but I think you may of been in a hurry which is by all means acceptable. I doubt you appreciate where I am coming (which is not spelled as comming, but you may be in a common rush) from. My edits are not jumbled up and were in certain areas - simple. But that is your opinion and I respect that and will keep it in mind when I am editing. Thank you so much for stating your opinion. Palestine is a region therefore should be reffered to as a region in the article's lead, I will keep the regional references and political references apart which may seperate the two subjects in the reader's head. Thank you. Kat73 13:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the ancient history of Palestine: this article focus on the existence of the Jews civilization in Palestine as thought the civilization in Palestine has started from the Jews existence in Palestine. the article misses the fact that most of the Palestinian cities like Jerusalem, Jaffa and acre were built before the Jews migration to Palestine which indicates great civilization at that place before the arrival of Jews. The article missed that the Jews existence in the ancient history as an entity was not more than 400 years (the united kingdom of Israel and then its split into two kingdoms). On top of that, during the time of two Jews kingdoms in Palestine, Jews people co-existed with the Palestinians who were living in the coastal area during the period of the existence of judases as entity in Palestine. Regarding the so-called Arab migration: the article clearly adopt the Israeli point of view which claims that the land of Palestine was empty or uncivilized before the migration of European Jews to Palestine during the first half of the twenty century. The claim that Palestine was empty and Arab migrated to Palestine migrated due to the Jews and British reforms to the land is something indicates the bankruptcy of those who promote the Zionist though because of the following reasons: 1-why the land of Palestine was empty while the neighboring Arab countries were populated? This is not logical because of the fact that Palestine is located in a very important geographical area links the three continents: Asia, Europe and Africa. Palestine also is a holly place for the Arab Muslim and Christians so claim about the emptiness of Palestine is rejected logically. On top of that, Palestine has very important water resources which make it a very livable place. Therefore, the claim that Palestine which has all the previous characteristics was empty and the neighboring Arab territories were populated despite they have less livable characteristics, cannot be accepted from any logical perspective. 2-palestine is a very small place which has many cities and more than 700 villages. Examples for the cities: Jerusalem, Jaffa, acre, Gaza, Haifa, Bethlehem, Hebron, Jenin, Nablus...etc. it is worth mentioning here that those cities were founded thousands years ago and their existence proves that the civilization in Palestine never stopped. We see many ancient places in the world but many of the old cities are dead, but in case of Palestine, cities stood for thousands of years. Needless to mention that this big amount of villages indicates rich continuous civilization in this place. 3-the historical places can be a judge for those who are skeptics about what I have mentioned above. Examples for that: 1-the Arabic neighbor in Jaffa still exist and it is aged for hundreds of years. 2-the old town of Jerusalem. 3-the old town of Nablus which has buildings aged more than 400 years. 4-Acre with its wall which has another strong evidence about the rich civilization of Palestine. Napoleon with his big troops failed to invade acre after a siege aged for more than two months. 5-in all Palestinian city and villages there are many old buildings which ridicules the claim that the land was empty. 6-the news Israeli historians refute the ‘’empty land’’ claim like Illan Pappe. See reliable sources on this issue: 1-the ethnic cleansing for Palestine-Illan Pappe. 2-the roots for the Palestinian problem-the united nation web site. http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument 3- http://www.palestineremembered.com/
Regarding the Jews migration: It is very strange that there is no mentioning here about the Jews migration to Palestine which took place during the first half of the twenty century. This very important information because it affected the history of this land and it is considered to be the causes for what is known nowadays as Israeli-Palestinian problem. As it is known and even documented in Wikipedia in different locations that the situation in Palestine reached a critical point because of the Jews migration and lead to clashed with the Palestinian people.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine: One of the most tragedy issue in the Palestinian history is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel and leveling more than 500 Palestinian villages by Israel. tt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
please do not say that jews migration was welcommed by palestinians. how come that people welcome others who want to steal thier lands(at least according to balfour declaration). please when you say the jews migration was welcome you seems that you are misinformed. you forgot that many rights during 1919-1947 against the zionist migration to palestine. it is doccumented by the israeli historians illan pappe, bony morrie, and the founders of 'israel' refered to the riots at that time and to their conflicts with the people of palestine. you maybe need to check the united of league at that time which sent 2 messengers to the area to investigate the clashes which happened between palestinains and the zionist immigtants. read about this on the official web site of the united nation and the new israeli new historians. i advice you also to read the memory book for david ben gorion.
you said it by yourself that jews were welcomed by arabs which means an acknowledgement that the land of palestine was populated. yes of course you gave figuires but these figures are false and the official british figures which colonized palestine at that time refute these sources. then how can you explain the historical places in palestine which are aged for more than hundred years and still alive. how can you explain acre siege?
of course the people who were living in palestine before the jews migration thousends years ago are linked the current palestinian people....execuse m: where those people go? did they vanish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 07:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The evident bias of this article is giving much weights to the Zionist claims. Yes, the issue of Jews migration was discussed but it is not covered well with small space. On the other hand, the so-called Arab migration section occupies really large space. Another thing, the claim that the Arab migration section considers two point of view is false. 80% of this section is supportive to the Zionist claim which says that this land was empty, or almost empty. It is cannot be at any case objectivity by giving weights to unreliable sources and ignoring more reliable and official sources and facts. Benny Morris and Illan Pappe refuted the claims about ‘significant Arab migration’ to Palestine. The official British studies refuted that as well. Needless to mention the Arab and European historians. The logic even reject this: how is it possible that more than 900 villages and more than 20 cities in a small place like Palestine can be built within short period of time!!!! What okedem says about ‘’empty’’ and ‘’mostly empty’’ is nothing more than an informational bankrupt! Mostly empty or empty is the same!!! Many of The people who were forced to leave Palestine are still alive and they can tell!! If Palestine was empty then how come Palestine was the place where the crusades and napoleons armies were defeated! The historians and the British officials documented all the destroyed villages by the Israeli under militia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I have re-written this section that was not accurate or that was pov. Could someone check the spelling and grammar ? Thanks. Ceedjee ( talk) 11:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
'During the months before May 15, Arab civilian and British and Legion military traffic was periodically fired upon along the Hebron-Jerusalem road. The fire came from Haganah militiamen stationed in the Etzion Block kibbutzim, four settlements - Kfar Etzion, Revadim, Massu'ot Yitzhak and 'Ein Tzurim - planted during the 1930s side by side just west of the road linking Hebron and Bethlehem. The Un partition plan of 1947 had allocated the area to the Palestinian Arab state but the Haganah command had decided not to evacuate the settlements, despite their vulnerability, both as a matter of principle and precisely because they were 'a sharp thorn stuck in the heart of a purely Arab area', as Legion officer Abdullah Tall put it' and a potential obstruction along a main Arab line of communication.'B Morris, The Road to Jerusalem, p.135
This WP article says: "The reports of the British Mandatory administration often contained self-serving (prove it. Because without proof, it is total non-NPOV, Original Research (or more like someone's unfounded opinion which assumes you can read the minds of the Brits who were reporting in Palestine), and a Poison the well fallacy of logic to state that the potential for bias had gotten to those Brits.) descriptions and accounts which implied that the British Colonial Office or the European Jewish immigrants were bringing progress to a backward land and people." This needs a citation needed
Historic sources including Arab leaders themselves noted that the technology to increase the population-density of the land was coming from Jewish immigrants from (comparatively wealthy) Europe and not from the Arabs:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.22.160 ( talk) 13:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Since when is this a reliable wiki-source? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 00:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The lead mentions the State of Israel, so I went ahead and added the State of Palestine too. Since this is supposed to be a geographical article I think the fact that the America Palestine Committee was a political lobby group supporting Zionism in the U.S.A. is totally out of place in the lead. Unless you want to add the Arab Higher Committee and PLO, then the Zionists, Der Judenstaat, Herzl, The Balfour Declaration Jewish "homeland" (sic), and the bogus claim that UNGA 181 contains the phrase "The Jewish State in Palestine" (which it doesn't) all need to go anywhere but the lead. harlan ( talk) 22:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.
This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.
The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.
There exists no facts about such a travel.
The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.
The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:
"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
Regards
Wikiexaminer
-- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 17:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.
This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.
The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.
There exists no facts about such a travel.
The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.
The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:
"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
Regards
Wikiexaminer -- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 18:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} I am sorry if talking directly to the editors was impolite. The Palestine page is "semi-protected and can be edited only by established registered users", I am a new user and not allowed to edit semi-protected pages. I do not know how to "amend", so therefore i "talk" directly to those who made the false claim.
I hoped those 2 editors (Amoruso and RolandR) who added the wrong claims would be willing to delete the statements in the article.
I have given my arguments above here - there is no biographi mentioning any travels to Palestine by Reland in 1695, no travels at all, no mentions of the year 1695 in any biography.
The source given (by Amoruso or RolandR?) for the claim that Reland travelled to Palestine is written in Latin, and obviously translated wrong, or misunderstood.
Here is my 7 sources, all the biographies about Reland that i have found on the internet, and one outside internet - never is any travels to Palestine mentioned, neither is the year 1695:
1 - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hadrian-Reland 2 - http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00008385/images/index.html 3 - http://bc.ub.leidenuniv.nl/bc/olg/portret/content.html 4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 5 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 6 - http://viswiki.com/en/Adriaan_Reland
7 - ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA Second Edition, Volume 17, Page 214
"RELAND, ADRIAN (Hadrian; 1676–1718), Dutch Orientalist
and theologian. Reland studied at Utrecht, was appointed
professor of philosophy at Harderwijk in 1699, and professor
of Oriental languages and antiquities at Utrecht in 1701.
He published Antiquitates sacrae veterum Hebraeorum (1708) and De spoliis templi Hierosolymitani in arcu Titiaco Romae conspicuis liber singularis (Utrecht, 1716). Reland’s major work was Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata (2 vols., 1714), in which he collected all the knowledge then available on the historical geography of Erez Israel and its ancient sites, arranging the latter alphabetically. His sources included not only the writings of classical authors, but also those of the church historians, the Lives of the Saints, and talmudic literature which he quotes in the original. Reland also recorded Nabatean and Palmyrene inscriptions, though he was unable to decipher them. All later Orientalists made use of his monumental compilation which is of value even today."
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Wikiexaminer (
talk)
16:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
From the Dutch Wikipedia-page about Reland, with translation to English:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
http://translation.babylon.com/ Adriaan Reland of Reelant, gelatiniseerd: Hadrianus Relandus (De Rijp, 17 juli 1676 – Utrecht, 5 februari 1718) was hoogleraar oosterse talen, cartograaf en Neolatijns dichter. Met zijn boek Over de Mohammedaanse godsdienst (1705) was hij een belangrijke vertegenwoordiger van de Verlichting. (Translation Dutch-English)
Adriaan Reland werd in De Rijp geboren als zoon van de predikant Johannes Reland en Aagje Prins. De jurist Petrus of Pieter Reland (1678-1714) was zijn broer. Het gezin verhuisde in 1676 naar Alkmaar en vervolgens in 1677 naar Amsterdam, nadat Adriaans vader in die plaatsen als predikant was beroepen. In Amsterdam werd Adriaan op 11-jarige leeftijd ingeschreven in het Athenaeum Illustre, waar hij Latijn leerde bij Petrus Francius en Hebreeuws bij Everard van der Hooght en Willem Surenhuys. Op 13-jarige leeftijd ging hij in Utrecht studeren. Hij volgde de colleges Latijn en Grieks bij Johann Georg Graevius, Hebreeuws bij Johan Leusden, theologie bij Melchior Leydekker en Herman Witsius, filosofie bij Gerard de Vries en wis- en natuurkunde bij de astronoom Johan Luyts. Van zijn medestudent Heinrich Sike uit Bremen leerde hij Arabisch. Hij promoveerde in 1694 in de filosofie op een dissertatie De libertate philosophandi (Over de vrijheid van het filosoferen), waarna hij naar Leiden ging. Hier studeerde hij onder meer experimentele natuurkunde bij Wolferd Senguerd en was hij privé-leraar van de zoon van Hans Willem Bentinck, de latere graaf van Portland, die hem tevergeefs verzocht hem naar Windsor te vergezellen. In 1700 werd hij hoogleraar fysica en metafysica in Harderwijk. In hetzelfde jaar al werd hij benoemd tot hoogleraar oosterse talen in Utrecht, waar hij in 1701 zijn inaugurele rede hield. In 1713 werd zijn leeropdracht uitgebreid met de Joodse oudheden. Tot aan zijn dood door de pokken op 41-jarige leeftijd in 1718 bleef hij hoogleraar in Utrecht. Hij was getrouwd met Johanna Catharina Teelinck (dochter van Johan Teelinck, oud-burgemeester van Zierikzee), en vervolgens met Maria Hoffer, met wie hij een zoon en twee dochters had. Reland heeft zijn vaderland nooit verlaten; zijn kennis deed hij op in zijn studeerkamer. Hij werd begraven in De Rijp. De schilder Johan George Colasius schilderde tweemaal een portret van Reland. Het ene (ca. 1712-13) bevindt zich in het Centraal Museum te Utrecht, het andere (ca. 1710-15) in de senaatszaal van de Universiteit Utrecht.
(Translation Dutch-English) On 13-year-old age he went to study in Utrecht. He followed the colleges Latin and Greek in Johann Georg Graevius, Hebrew in Johan Leusden, theology in Melchior Leydekker and Herman Witsius, philosophy in Gerard de Vries and sure - and physics in the astronomer Johan Luyts. Of his fellow student Heinrich Sike from Bremen he Arabic learnt. He took one's doctoral degree in 1694 in the philosophy on a thesis The libertate philosophandi (Over the freedom from philosophizing), after that he to Leyden went. Here he studied in particular experimentative physics in Wolferd Senguerd and he was private-teacher of the son of Hans Willem Bentinck, the later earl of Portland, who him in vain him to Windsor request to keep company. In 1700 he became professor physics and metaphysics in Harderwijk. In the same year all was appointed he to professor oriental languages in Utrecht, truly he in 1701 be retained inaugural speech. In 1713 his doctrine assignment with the Jewish antiquities was extended. To on his death by the pocks on 41-birthday person age in 1718 he remain professor in Utrecht. He had married with Johanna Catharina Teelinck (daughter of Johan Teelinck, old-provost of Zierikzee), and subsequently with Mary Hoffer, with whom he a son and two daughters had. Redisembark has his fatherland never abandoned; His knowledge gained he in his studeerkamer. He was buried in The Ripe. The pictorial Johan George Colasius painted twice a portrait of Redisembarked. The one (approx. 1712- 13) finds in the Central Museum to Utrecht, the other (approx. 1710- 15) in the senate hall of the University Utrecht.
Cartografie (Translation Dutch-English)
Alastair Hamilton, ‘Adrianus Reland (1676-1718). Outstanding Orientalist’, in: Zes keer zestig. 360 jaar universitaire geschiedenis in zes biografieën, Utrecht 1996, 22-31
a b c d John Gorton, A General Biographical Dictionary, 1838, Whittaker & Co. |
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Wikiexaminer (
talk)
11:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Formatted the quouted text - put it into a table.
Regards -- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 23:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
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section 3.4 "The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine".
This WP article says: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations, [etc] ...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration"... but...
the sources I'll review after this paragraph tell us that this sentence from the WP article should say: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations [etc]... conclude at some points [1] that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase," not to any substantial immigration, but the same sources conclude the opposite at other points.[2]
REASONS/PROOF:
[1] The WP article already gives one link, to Capmag.com reviewing a book by Joan Peters, which takes the position that Arab immigration WAS a significant factor in Arab population growth in Palestine. Yet this WP article ironically says only the OPPOSITE of what their source, Peters/capmag, says, by selectively quoting one footnote from Peters/capmag and ignoring the broader view of what Peters/Capmag presented. (see http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=2138 <--contrast the link I gave there, versus the link a Wikipedian gave to the footnote only.)
[2] Note that the following are excerpts from the very same official "reports made to the Mandatory Administration" (to quote the Wikipedia article):
The Wikipedia article as it currently reads says that these "reports made to the Mandatory Administration...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration" and these 3 things I've quoted show these reports concluding THE OPPOSITE.
This is the only country that has geographical map instead of political. I think some kosher people are trying to make people forget about UN-recognized borders of Palestine. I am very disappointed and angry about this kosher influence on reaching the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.226.97 ( talk) 06:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me first say that the word kosher is an adjective that cannot refer to people only inanimate objects. You are clearly an antisemite who knows little of what you are speaking about. Palestine is currently recognized by 97 countries but not the United Nations. Please refer to the United Nations list of recognized nations for further details about your own ignorance.
This article is about the region of Palestine, not the proposed state. Goalie1998 ( talk) 17:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Spare us the 'anti-semitic' tirade, it's old. - Now, you must keep in mind that a few well known nation states are not recognized formally and have no membership in the United Nations; North Korea for example.
Are you to tell me that North Korea does not exist?
Further, Some people would argue that 'Palestine' (inia) has never been a country, even during the life of the Roman Empire it was nothing more than a small tract of land regulated but not officially recognized --- But then again, Judea was never an official nation either there was never a nation called Judea recognized by the powers of the day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 04:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
under "British Mandate" the pic is displaying over top the first line of text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.249.237 ( talk) 19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Max —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.156.227 ( talk) 04:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The name "Palestine" was not used by the Romans before Hadrian (135 BCE). However, this Wikipedia entry talks about a piece of land that has been called so many different things through time and refers to it as 'Palestine'. Palestine in Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya-5000 BCE), Bronze Age, Iron Age, Hebrew Bible, Persian rule, .. into Classical antiquity where eventually, in 135 BCE Hadrian calls it Palestine. Seems kind of like saying 'Palestine has always been there'. Not true.
Absolutely true. The area was Israel, not Palestine, for over 1000 years before Roman rule. This article is ridiculous in labeling the land Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 ( talk) 04:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
There is no solid evidence that Israel as a nation ever existed in ancient times other than biblical texts. - The area of Judea and Palestine were never officially recognized as nation states by any ancient powers. - Both Judea and Palestine were nothing more than 'regions' within old Empires.
Please - show us one shred of historical evidence to support the existence of an ancient 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli' nation. - Cannot do it because they never existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 05:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
The first introduction of this name was by the Romans in 135 AD. After crushing the second Jewish revolt and exiling the Jews from Judea, Jerusalem's name was changed to Aelia Capitolina and Judea ("land of the Jews") was changed to Palestine in order to spite the Jews and in commemoration of their historical arch rivals - the Philistines. The Philistines were part of the sea nations that reaked havoc around the mediteranean in 1200 BCE. They are totally unrelated to Arab Palestinians of modern day or any other Semetic people and are related to Cartage (see Pune wars) and Pheonicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.118.48.248 ( talk) 10:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Still, the name "Palestine" has been the official name for more than twice the time it was called "Judea". The name "Canaan" is still older and used as frequently as "Judea" in historical sources, so it clearly has seniority. MeteorMaker ( talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I added back info on Twain's account and Christoson's reaction to it. These were apparently deleted inadvertently in a revert war back in November. If we're going to keep Twain's account, we need to put it in context. Thank you, Jgui ( talk) 17:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I added a link to chapter 1 of Twains Tom Sawyer Abroad to the article. Twain ridiculed Christian and Jewish claims to Arab land: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/marktwain/TomSawyerAbroad/Chap1.html harlan ( talk) 12:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I note that Costa Rica has recognized diplomatically a Palestinian state.[ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958208.html The Associated Press,'Israeli diplomat postpones meeting after Costa Rica recognizes Palestinian state,' Haaretz 26/02/2008 ]
Where does one put this? Nishidani ( talk) 10:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Judea was a region within the Roman Empire - it had various inhabitants and they were called Judean's not "Jews".
2. Judea, like Palestine - Was a region within the Roman Empire (and other earlier and later empires) and was never, ever, recognized as a nation state.
3. The Romans already had control of Judea - they did not need to 'conquer' it in the year 135 AD. -- Furthermore, "Jews" were not dispersed from the entire region of Judea. There is absolutely no historical evidence to support such a wild claim. --All that is known is that Titus (who reigned long before 135 AD) went to war, destroyed the temple, and killed the rebels. --Standard Roman fare for the day and was not a 'dispersal.'
4. - "In order to distance it from the Judeans" - Who were, majority, not Jewish but PAGANS.
Josephus writes about Titus'es war. - He did not slaughter an entire region, give us a break. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 ( talk) 05:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
When the Romans conquered Judea and dispersed the Jews, they called the land "palestine" after the philistines and in order to distance it from the Jews. 99.237.190.52 ( talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Nanette
.Today, Palestine is often used to refer to a state, though it has yet to secure full formal statehood, and does yet meet the usual criteria governing the classic definition of a state. Notwithstanding the technical issue, a Palestinian state entity, whose precise boundaries are not yet agreed upon, has gained recognition as a diplomatic reality from over 100 countries in the world'.
The policy of conspiracy of 'Cloak & Dagger' adopted after Balfour to turn the declaration into a fact , is a fact or fiction? If it is a fact, was it replaced by or added to the "with us or not" policy adopted since September 2001? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.112 ( talk) 17:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The Zionist occupation is built upon this. It is built upon using cloak and dagger concepts to come and destroy land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.234.146 ( talk) 09:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Good morning, Administrators and Fellow Locked-out Ones.
— The event known to most of the world as "the catastrophe" (to Arabs: "Nakba") should be mentioned at least as early as the '47 partition, including the 1948 Deir Yassin Massacre.
— Also, there is no mention of Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century. Instead, pseudo-scholars like Howard Sachar and Justin McCarthy are used almost exclusively throughout—including a section on "Arab Immigration to Palestine"(???); while merely a trace of contradictory Palestinian history is included within practically the entire article. This article is not neutral by any stretch: it is state-worship, namely, for the state of Israel.
This is not to say that Sachar, McCarthy, et al., should be outright deleted; but, it would be proper to include references to the mainstream scholars whose analyses differ from theirs. And how many times are pro-Israeli sources cited, like JewishVirtualLibrary and such? This is not scholarship; it is calculated agitprop.
"Historians" like Sachar and McCarthy are known to diminish Palestinian existence and claims to their land, and regularly apologize for Israel and Turkey—especially in relating certain events that are seen as ethnic cleansings by most of the world (e.g., Armenian Genocide, Palestinian Nakba, Deir Yassin, the 1967–present Israeli occupation). Even Israeli historians whose works are known to read as state-apologetics will say the Palestinian catastrophe was not mostly a result of Jordanian and Egyptian authorities telling Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes. A majority of respected historians the world over nominally agree that Zionist terror gangs ("terrorist organizations") drove most Palestinians off their land, beginning many years—even decades—before Deir Yassin and other Nakba-era atrocities. In all, a couple-hundred-thousand (at least) villagers were forced out through Zionist terror throughout the first half of the 20th century.
These are events that even Turkish and Israeli officials have admitted to carrying out: Menachim Begin, for example, did not deny massacres like Deir Yassin, and even detailed the larger strategy of conquest of the West Bank and Gaza as it was carried out by him and other Zionist militants who later became Israeli officials; yet, there is no mention of the Nakba or Deir Yassin in the current article. Shame. Even the trace mentioning of Zionist terror gangs is within the context of attempting to exonerate Israel of wrongdoing.
Wikipedia used to reflect a balance of mainstream, independent, and official accounts in its articles covering Levantine conflicts and histories. What happened?
It should be brought back; otherwise, the whole shabang—the article, the guidelines for editing it, and the page for discussing both—will simply appear as tools for marginalizing accounts that differ from state-approved agitprop.
Respectfully, Blogger4Liberty ( talk) 06:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The discussion of the Philistines is silly and irrelevant since Palestinians and Philistines have no historical relationship with each other. The article was extremely wordy and had to be revised-- three sentences were used when a word could have sufficed. It was also argumentative, eg. calling Israel Palestine. It is not. It was Palestine, from 1918-1948 but then it became Israel. Wishing does not make it otherwise. Also, the origin of the term Palestine was swept under the rug. For example, while authors went on and on about the Philistines (irrelevant) there was not mention that Palestine came to be not by Arabs but by Roman conquerors in 70 CE and that was corrected. My computer lacks tildes so I will sign it bigleaguer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigleaguer ( talk • contribs) 18:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The West Bank is occupied. The Gaza strip is not occupied physically or legally by Israel. Thus, in line 4, when the WB & Gaza are collectively referred to (in the piped text for the link to Occupied Palestine), they cannot be called "occupied territories".
(funny but Jewish peoples started to enter palestine in the recent past declaring it "their" land in 1897 and in 1917 proclaimed it their own country. : http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm
They can be called "disputed territories" (their legal staus, under current international law), "palestinian territories" (I don't like this because it can be confusing, but it enjoys widespread usage and so is acceptable), or "West Bank and Gaza Strip" (written out and not referred to as a collective group). Smaug 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
"The stress is phenomenal," said Eyad El Sarraj, a psychologist and director of Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, one of the groups filing the petition. "The Israelis do it after midnight and then every one or two hours. You try to go to sleep and then there's another one. When it happens night after night you become exhausted. You get a heightened sense of alert, waiting continuously for it to happen. People suffer hypertension, fatigue, sleeplessness.
"For children, the loud noise means danger. Adults may know it's only a sound but small children feel threatened. They are crying and clinging to their parents. Afterwards they are dazed and fearful, waiting for something to happen."
The UN Palestinian refugee agency said a majority of the patients seen at its clinics as a result of the sonic booms were under 16 and suffering from symptoms such as anxiety attacks, bedwetting, muscle spasms, temporary loss of hearing and breathing difficulties.[...]The Palestinian health ministry estimates the sonic booms have caused at least 20 miscarriages.''
Note 14,only underlines the tenuousness indeed parlousness of any attempt by Wiki editors to alter the terminological status quo. It reads in part (undoing your own confident assertions).
. Last week, I asked Secretary-General Ban whether he considers Gaza to be occupied, and he wisely sidestepped the question, highlighting instead the dire humanitarian conditions inside the strip.With this fast-changing, increasingly ominous state of affairs, the word "occupation" is meaningless, a State Department official told me recently. Definitions in various, at times conflicting, sets of international treaties and agreements known as "international law" are also inconclusive. In the read of some legal scholars, the fact that the Israelis control Gaza's air, sea, and telecommunications indicates that their occupation there is not over. Opponents cite a 1907 Hague treaty that defines occupied territory as one "actually placed under the authority of the hostile army"; and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which holds that occupation ends when the controlling power no longer "exercises the functions of government" over the territory in question.Like religious scriptures, so-called international law requires much wise interpretation, and, unlike in the case of the American Constitution, there is no credible world Supreme Court to determine a correct reading. BENNY AVNI The O Word: Is Gaza Occupied Territory? February 11, 2008
(unindent) I make no claims of these links being RSs, and did not bring them to prove a point, only as interesting reads. Just a note - traditions, even long, don't determine what words we should or shouldn't use.
The solution here should be in making sure that whatever words we end up using, the facts should be made clear to the reader in the text. Meaning, we shouldn't simply say "Gaza is occupied", but explain what that means, that Israel disputes that claim, and why. okedem ( talk) 08:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
As a geographical, apolitical term, in its broadest application, Palestine can be used to refer to 'ancient Palestine', an area that includes contemporary Israel and the area today referred to as the Palestinian territories.
There seems to be discussion on Arab immigration, yet at the same time there was large scale Jewish immigration into the region as well. Perhaps we should also discuss that. Bless sins ( talk) 01:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"this is demonstrated by the continued existence of the rabbinical academy of Lydda in Judea" is incorrect. The rabbinical academy was in Iamnia (Jamnia, modern day Yavne), not Lyddia ( modern day Lod).
As can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavne —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guysoffer ( talk • contribs) 23:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The Canaanite and it's Phoenician offspring were vibrant civilizations. Why is their era left unmentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth ( talk • contribs) 09:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
How can it be referred to as "ancient Palestine?" Pre-Israel it was called Canaan and Philistines lived there, not Palestinians. It wasn't until the Romans conquered Israel that they named in Palestine. Is that what you mean by "ancient?" I'm not sure the word is appropriate as it makes it sound older than Israel and has political connotations. Susanthedefender ( talk) 09:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
In the section called hebrew bible period there is only a mention of one way Israelites came to exist. However, there are other POVs and additional two mentioned in a link in this this paragraph: 1- Isralites were nomads in the neighbouring transjordanian desert. 2- Trditional biblical view that they came from egypt. The 1st one is the most widely accepted among achaelogists. And There is also achaelogical evidence supporting the second account. Since the page is locked I was unable to add anything, however I suggest this additional info be added and I can provide refernces for the first account. Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Needs to be added to Category:Former countries in Asia
NOT a geographical area. Palestine is a country, above your noses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.43.214 ( talk) 20:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There are several items that I think could be incorporated:
'1. Steps will be taken immediately to prepare for the evacuation by the British Army of Syria and Cilicia including the Taurus tunnel. 2. Notice is given both to the French Government and to the Emir Feisal of our intentions to commence the evacuation of Syria and Cilicia on November 1, 1919'... ...6. The territories occupied by British troops will then be Palestine, defined in accordance with its ancient boundaries of Dan to Beersheba.' 'text of the Aide-Me'moire'
This site is full of maps and old people. Are there no children left in Palestine? No schools? Please upload an image we could use on other Wikepedia languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llywelyn2000 ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
it shows Golan as part of occupied Palestine instead of Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.135 ( talk) 14:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The "Faisal-Clemenceau accords" is mentioned on this page, and there's a small amount of information reagrding the accords at: http://www.swisscorner.com/wiki.php?title=1920_Palestine_riots
Can create a link to this page. Hat4rack ( talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)hat4rack Hat4rack ( talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with this terminology because I don't believe 'Greater Israel' is clear enough on it's own since it doesn't even exist in Hebrew and seems to be used by some to refer to the biblical promise and by others to Israel HaShlema. Perhaps we should clarify with a bit of source searching (talk page discussion) if the term is actually used for 'Palestine' or if it is used for something else (far larger). After this is clarified, if it is determined that we should add the term, then an article explanation that this term is quite ambiguous should probably be added it would be bad to suggest that "from the Nile to the Euphrates" is a term "used to refer to all or part of this [Palestine] area" since it is clearly not. p.s. What do you think of other nicknames of the place such as "Eretz Tsion"? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
As currently written, the phrasing used in the first paragraph of this section doesn't seem to accurately reflect the sources that the information is drawn from; specifically references #31 and #33. While the initial set of dates given is quite correct, there is a certain lack of clarity in the way the findings are presented. It now reads:
I would like to propose the following change, with the approval and assistance of regular contributors (changes in bold type for easy comparison):
It's my hope that the rewording and small addition will make the chronology a bit more clear. I'm also open to other suggestions of course, and since the article is locked, will need some help from a regular to make any changes that are agreeable. Thanks for your consideration! 67.173.185.224 ( talk) 17:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I had made this suggestion many weeks ago when I wasn't logged in. Since no one has objected in the past 3 months, I went ahead and made the change. Doc Tropics 01:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
ok - first of all i do not wish to edit any of this page, nor is my intention to cause argument of a political kind. If you feel you will read this without being able to put religion aside, then please do not read anymore of my post
i am also neutral in the argument of ownership of these lands around this area, but if questioned would blame my own european ancestors for causing much of the disagreement which reigns there, going as far back as the crusades and the occupations of Cyprus and Malta right up until the 1920's and 30's
In archeology and history in general we have primary secondary and tertiary evidences.
it has been shown, for example, the the walls of "Jericho" were eroded over many hundreds of year after the city was abandoned and that people settled there some 300-400 years after abandonment. This was proven by archaeological research. we also have primary evidence from Kenyon, Garstang and Wood of various collapses and re buildings, settlement and desertion of the site which provide this primary evidence in the form of bones, pottery, seeds, tablets (stone etc) buildings and burning evidence, however people must separate conclusions (opinions such as was it fire earthquakes or other reasons) drawn from these factual evidences. http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/kenyon/ http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/index.htm http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/06/The-Walls-of-Jericho.aspx here many of the articles contain photos and sketches which may be enlightening.
The Bible for one thing is neither Palestinian nor Jewish and so cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate Palestinian or Jewish history. Secondly it is not possible to rely upon quotes from the bible as accurate historical record. Many of the writings were a considerable time after events and were not written by people who were there at the time, making them tertiary evidence.
i am not raising these points for any reason other than to point out that wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference source, and should contain non-fictional work as the basis of its actions.
I understand that people are entitled to their beliefs but fact and belief must remain separate when they do not agree and it is dangerous to confuse the two things
I applaud the actions of the writers of this page for their continued scholarly work, devoid of fiction and supported by fact. It is impressive that this page reaches such a high state of truths seperating fiction from archaeological evidence.
Chaosdruid ( talk) 16:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Great article, thanks! I'm missing reference to Jaffa_Riots, Hebron_Massacre and 1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine.
Daonb ( talk) 08:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the original letter from Lord Balfour made no mention of a "Promise", "Exchange for Financial Support" or "War against Ottomans and Germans" Shaldonbridge ( talk) 17:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
It says in the article: "... British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the controversial Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised to establish a Jewish state in Palestine". The Balfour Declaration of 1917 refers to a "national home for the Jewish people", not to a Jewish state, and subsequent official statements by the British government further clarify that a "Jewish state" was not formally intended.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 08:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
"The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area." The archeologist Turville was responsible for the findings he named "galilee man" in 1925 in the Zuttiyeh Cave. He never published in his papers or coined the term "palestine man". The footnotes are links to either dead sites or too vague to be verified. Please either insert a reliable source for this term or remove it. Eframgoldberg ( talk) 09:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
People around here usually refer to that region as Bilad al-Sham, not greater Syria..Infact I've never heard that name around here. I think we should add the name Bilad al-Sham or Al Sham or Sham to the names list. radiant guy ( talk) 05:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
considering the vested interests, this page retains a degree of integrity that is a credit to all its regular contributors. I wouldn't expect this wikipage to be non-contentious until all the real issues about this piece of land are settled - The sooner the better. Sadly, with such loaded content, it seems that the grammar and readability of the page is suffering. phrases such as 'a name used already much earlier' and 'However, already under British rule and even more after the foundation of Israel, Zionists came to consciously and vehemently reject' give the impression of an amateur essay. Anyone care to consolidate the grammar? 82.24.57.18 ( talk) 14:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Is the information in this edit correct? Goalie1998 ( talk) 05:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Not meaning to intrude or confuse, but I just noted, based on a quick Ctrl-F, that the word ‘ nationalism’ occurs only once in this article. Although not completely conversant on the subject of how that word may relate to these contents, I was somewhat surprised to find the sole reference mentioned ‘Samaritan nationalism’; it seemed somehow undue, based on my general knowledge. This is by no means conclusive regarding article content, but I somehow relate various other competing nationalisms with this specific geography.
How this apparent imbalance might best be remedied by consensus is up to more involved editors, but I note on a basic level that media usage of the term abruptly diminished in 1948, with different political usage of new terms, while the geographic limits remained broadly the same. I further note that various pieces that resulted are not now included in the lede and/or in ‘Names and boundaries’; possibly they should be. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I have included a relevant missing source in ‘Non-Biblical texts’; this seems to be the place for it. The prose may require some tweaking, but I believe both refs should remain included, since they appear to provide different spins from differing povs. It would be nice to have such a map ([[File:Faisal-Weizmann_map.png]]) available, but there appear to be some discrepancies, which also have been noted here. I guess we will wait. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 08:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The article quotes an entire passage from an article by one Meir Abelson. Abelson is not a historian of any standing. The quoted article is little more than a political pamphlet that makes no effort to hide its agenda. Even worse, entire passages from the quoted article are lifted from W. B. Ziff, The Rape of Palestine, 1938, without citing the source. A quote from a plagiarized and politically slanted text by an unknown "researcher" compromises the quality of this article. I'm sure a better source can be found to reflect Kaiser Wilhelm's impressions, if indeed it is necessary. I would like to remove this quote, if nobody objects.-- 128.139.104.49 ( talk) 20:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia,
Regarding Wikipedia's main article entitled "Palestine" - a glaring inaccuracy is contained within the text which sub-heads the article's first arial (NASA) map of the region...! Viz: Among the clockwise list of surrounding countries claimed to border Palestine - (the map's central focus) - not only is Iran incorrectly include but Iraq is omitted...!! Whereas, in fact, the Iranian border, at its closest point, lies some 2-300 statute miles due East (of Palestine) and thus is nowhere in frame...!!!
PASTED BELOW FROM YOUR ORIGINAL: [This Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) image from the Terra satellite shows the Mediterranean Sea (left) and portions of the Middle East. Countries pictured are (clockwise from top right) Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt (across the Gulf of Aqaba), Israel, the disputed West Bank Territory, and Lebanon.]
That apart, however - please accept my sincere congratulations on your superb coverage (as usual...!) in every other particular.
Best regards
John Jay ( 90.202.153.242 ( talk) 17:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC))
Kat73, I appreciate where you are comming from and I think I agree with the general idea of putting Palestinian information first in a Palestinian-cetric article - good point. The rewrite of the lead was a little too jumbled for me. you got into mixing up geographical and political motivations and it got a little too incongruous. If you want to try, go ahead but try to keep all the regional references in one paragraph and all the political ones in the second paragraph, that will help anyone reading keep the two subjects separate in their head. Padillah ( talk) 13:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Please learn how to spell properly and use capital letters, but I think you may of been in a hurry which is by all means acceptable. I doubt you appreciate where I am coming (which is not spelled as comming, but you may be in a common rush) from. My edits are not jumbled up and were in certain areas - simple. But that is your opinion and I respect that and will keep it in mind when I am editing. Thank you so much for stating your opinion. Palestine is a region therefore should be reffered to as a region in the article's lead, I will keep the regional references and political references apart which may seperate the two subjects in the reader's head. Thank you. Kat73 13:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the ancient history of Palestine: this article focus on the existence of the Jews civilization in Palestine as thought the civilization in Palestine has started from the Jews existence in Palestine. the article misses the fact that most of the Palestinian cities like Jerusalem, Jaffa and acre were built before the Jews migration to Palestine which indicates great civilization at that place before the arrival of Jews. The article missed that the Jews existence in the ancient history as an entity was not more than 400 years (the united kingdom of Israel and then its split into two kingdoms). On top of that, during the time of two Jews kingdoms in Palestine, Jews people co-existed with the Palestinians who were living in the coastal area during the period of the existence of judases as entity in Palestine. Regarding the so-called Arab migration: the article clearly adopt the Israeli point of view which claims that the land of Palestine was empty or uncivilized before the migration of European Jews to Palestine during the first half of the twenty century. The claim that Palestine was empty and Arab migrated to Palestine migrated due to the Jews and British reforms to the land is something indicates the bankruptcy of those who promote the Zionist though because of the following reasons: 1-why the land of Palestine was empty while the neighboring Arab countries were populated? This is not logical because of the fact that Palestine is located in a very important geographical area links the three continents: Asia, Europe and Africa. Palestine also is a holly place for the Arab Muslim and Christians so claim about the emptiness of Palestine is rejected logically. On top of that, Palestine has very important water resources which make it a very livable place. Therefore, the claim that Palestine which has all the previous characteristics was empty and the neighboring Arab territories were populated despite they have less livable characteristics, cannot be accepted from any logical perspective. 2-palestine is a very small place which has many cities and more than 700 villages. Examples for the cities: Jerusalem, Jaffa, acre, Gaza, Haifa, Bethlehem, Hebron, Jenin, Nablus...etc. it is worth mentioning here that those cities were founded thousands years ago and their existence proves that the civilization in Palestine never stopped. We see many ancient places in the world but many of the old cities are dead, but in case of Palestine, cities stood for thousands of years. Needless to mention that this big amount of villages indicates rich continuous civilization in this place. 3-the historical places can be a judge for those who are skeptics about what I have mentioned above. Examples for that: 1-the Arabic neighbor in Jaffa still exist and it is aged for hundreds of years. 2-the old town of Jerusalem. 3-the old town of Nablus which has buildings aged more than 400 years. 4-Acre with its wall which has another strong evidence about the rich civilization of Palestine. Napoleon with his big troops failed to invade acre after a siege aged for more than two months. 5-in all Palestinian city and villages there are many old buildings which ridicules the claim that the land was empty. 6-the news Israeli historians refute the ‘’empty land’’ claim like Illan Pappe. See reliable sources on this issue: 1-the ethnic cleansing for Palestine-Illan Pappe. 2-the roots for the Palestinian problem-the united nation web site. http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument 3- http://www.palestineremembered.com/
Regarding the Jews migration: It is very strange that there is no mentioning here about the Jews migration to Palestine which took place during the first half of the twenty century. This very important information because it affected the history of this land and it is considered to be the causes for what is known nowadays as Israeli-Palestinian problem. As it is known and even documented in Wikipedia in different locations that the situation in Palestine reached a critical point because of the Jews migration and lead to clashed with the Palestinian people.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine: One of the most tragedy issue in the Palestinian history is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel and leveling more than 500 Palestinian villages by Israel. tt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
please do not say that jews migration was welcommed by palestinians. how come that people welcome others who want to steal thier lands(at least according to balfour declaration). please when you say the jews migration was welcome you seems that you are misinformed. you forgot that many rights during 1919-1947 against the zionist migration to palestine. it is doccumented by the israeli historians illan pappe, bony morrie, and the founders of 'israel' refered to the riots at that time and to their conflicts with the people of palestine. you maybe need to check the united of league at that time which sent 2 messengers to the area to investigate the clashes which happened between palestinains and the zionist immigtants. read about this on the official web site of the united nation and the new israeli new historians. i advice you also to read the memory book for david ben gorion.
you said it by yourself that jews were welcomed by arabs which means an acknowledgement that the land of palestine was populated. yes of course you gave figuires but these figures are false and the official british figures which colonized palestine at that time refute these sources. then how can you explain the historical places in palestine which are aged for more than hundred years and still alive. how can you explain acre siege?
of course the people who were living in palestine before the jews migration thousends years ago are linked the current palestinian people....execuse m: where those people go? did they vanish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 07:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The evident bias of this article is giving much weights to the Zionist claims. Yes, the issue of Jews migration was discussed but it is not covered well with small space. On the other hand, the so-called Arab migration section occupies really large space. Another thing, the claim that the Arab migration section considers two point of view is false. 80% of this section is supportive to the Zionist claim which says that this land was empty, or almost empty. It is cannot be at any case objectivity by giving weights to unreliable sources and ignoring more reliable and official sources and facts. Benny Morris and Illan Pappe refuted the claims about ‘significant Arab migration’ to Palestine. The official British studies refuted that as well. Needless to mention the Arab and European historians. The logic even reject this: how is it possible that more than 900 villages and more than 20 cities in a small place like Palestine can be built within short period of time!!!! What okedem says about ‘’empty’’ and ‘’mostly empty’’ is nothing more than an informational bankrupt! Mostly empty or empty is the same!!! Many of The people who were forced to leave Palestine are still alive and they can tell!! If Palestine was empty then how come Palestine was the place where the crusades and napoleons armies were defeated! The historians and the British officials documented all the destroyed villages by the Israeli under militia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp ( talk • contribs) 21:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I have re-written this section that was not accurate or that was pov. Could someone check the spelling and grammar ? Thanks. Ceedjee ( talk) 11:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
'During the months before May 15, Arab civilian and British and Legion military traffic was periodically fired upon along the Hebron-Jerusalem road. The fire came from Haganah militiamen stationed in the Etzion Block kibbutzim, four settlements - Kfar Etzion, Revadim, Massu'ot Yitzhak and 'Ein Tzurim - planted during the 1930s side by side just west of the road linking Hebron and Bethlehem. The Un partition plan of 1947 had allocated the area to the Palestinian Arab state but the Haganah command had decided not to evacuate the settlements, despite their vulnerability, both as a matter of principle and precisely because they were 'a sharp thorn stuck in the heart of a purely Arab area', as Legion officer Abdullah Tall put it' and a potential obstruction along a main Arab line of communication.'B Morris, The Road to Jerusalem, p.135
This WP article says: "The reports of the British Mandatory administration often contained self-serving (prove it. Because without proof, it is total non-NPOV, Original Research (or more like someone's unfounded opinion which assumes you can read the minds of the Brits who were reporting in Palestine), and a Poison the well fallacy of logic to state that the potential for bias had gotten to those Brits.) descriptions and accounts which implied that the British Colonial Office or the European Jewish immigrants were bringing progress to a backward land and people." This needs a citation needed
Historic sources including Arab leaders themselves noted that the technology to increase the population-density of the land was coming from Jewish immigrants from (comparatively wealthy) Europe and not from the Arabs:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.22.160 ( talk) 13:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Since when is this a reliable wiki-source? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 00:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The lead mentions the State of Israel, so I went ahead and added the State of Palestine too. Since this is supposed to be a geographical article I think the fact that the America Palestine Committee was a political lobby group supporting Zionism in the U.S.A. is totally out of place in the lead. Unless you want to add the Arab Higher Committee and PLO, then the Zionists, Der Judenstaat, Herzl, The Balfour Declaration Jewish "homeland" (sic), and the bogus claim that UNGA 181 contains the phrase "The Jewish State in Palestine" (which it doesn't) all need to go anywhere but the lead. harlan ( talk) 22:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.
This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.
The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.
There exists no facts about such a travel.
The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.
The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:
"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
Regards
Wikiexaminer
-- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 17:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.
This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.
The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.
There exists no facts about such a travel.
The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.
The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:
"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
Regards
Wikiexaminer -- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 18:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} I am sorry if talking directly to the editors was impolite. The Palestine page is "semi-protected and can be edited only by established registered users", I am a new user and not allowed to edit semi-protected pages. I do not know how to "amend", so therefore i "talk" directly to those who made the false claim.
I hoped those 2 editors (Amoruso and RolandR) who added the wrong claims would be willing to delete the statements in the article.
I have given my arguments above here - there is no biographi mentioning any travels to Palestine by Reland in 1695, no travels at all, no mentions of the year 1695 in any biography.
The source given (by Amoruso or RolandR?) for the claim that Reland travelled to Palestine is written in Latin, and obviously translated wrong, or misunderstood.
Here is my 7 sources, all the biographies about Reland that i have found on the internet, and one outside internet - never is any travels to Palestine mentioned, neither is the year 1695:
1 - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hadrian-Reland 2 - http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00008385/images/index.html 3 - http://bc.ub.leidenuniv.nl/bc/olg/portret/content.html 4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 5 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 6 - http://viswiki.com/en/Adriaan_Reland
7 - ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA Second Edition, Volume 17, Page 214
"RELAND, ADRIAN (Hadrian; 1676–1718), Dutch Orientalist
and theologian. Reland studied at Utrecht, was appointed
professor of philosophy at Harderwijk in 1699, and professor
of Oriental languages and antiquities at Utrecht in 1701.
He published Antiquitates sacrae veterum Hebraeorum (1708) and De spoliis templi Hierosolymitani in arcu Titiaco Romae conspicuis liber singularis (Utrecht, 1716). Reland’s major work was Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata (2 vols., 1714), in which he collected all the knowledge then available on the historical geography of Erez Israel and its ancient sites, arranging the latter alphabetically. His sources included not only the writings of classical authors, but also those of the church historians, the Lives of the Saints, and talmudic literature which he quotes in the original. Reland also recorded Nabatean and Palmyrene inscriptions, though he was unable to decipher them. All later Orientalists made use of his monumental compilation which is of value even today."
--
Wikiexaminer (
talk)
16:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
From the Dutch Wikipedia-page about Reland, with translation to English:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland
http://translation.babylon.com/ Adriaan Reland of Reelant, gelatiniseerd: Hadrianus Relandus (De Rijp, 17 juli 1676 – Utrecht, 5 februari 1718) was hoogleraar oosterse talen, cartograaf en Neolatijns dichter. Met zijn boek Over de Mohammedaanse godsdienst (1705) was hij een belangrijke vertegenwoordiger van de Verlichting. (Translation Dutch-English)
Adriaan Reland werd in De Rijp geboren als zoon van de predikant Johannes Reland en Aagje Prins. De jurist Petrus of Pieter Reland (1678-1714) was zijn broer. Het gezin verhuisde in 1676 naar Alkmaar en vervolgens in 1677 naar Amsterdam, nadat Adriaans vader in die plaatsen als predikant was beroepen. In Amsterdam werd Adriaan op 11-jarige leeftijd ingeschreven in het Athenaeum Illustre, waar hij Latijn leerde bij Petrus Francius en Hebreeuws bij Everard van der Hooght en Willem Surenhuys. Op 13-jarige leeftijd ging hij in Utrecht studeren. Hij volgde de colleges Latijn en Grieks bij Johann Georg Graevius, Hebreeuws bij Johan Leusden, theologie bij Melchior Leydekker en Herman Witsius, filosofie bij Gerard de Vries en wis- en natuurkunde bij de astronoom Johan Luyts. Van zijn medestudent Heinrich Sike uit Bremen leerde hij Arabisch. Hij promoveerde in 1694 in de filosofie op een dissertatie De libertate philosophandi (Over de vrijheid van het filosoferen), waarna hij naar Leiden ging. Hier studeerde hij onder meer experimentele natuurkunde bij Wolferd Senguerd en was hij privé-leraar van de zoon van Hans Willem Bentinck, de latere graaf van Portland, die hem tevergeefs verzocht hem naar Windsor te vergezellen. In 1700 werd hij hoogleraar fysica en metafysica in Harderwijk. In hetzelfde jaar al werd hij benoemd tot hoogleraar oosterse talen in Utrecht, waar hij in 1701 zijn inaugurele rede hield. In 1713 werd zijn leeropdracht uitgebreid met de Joodse oudheden. Tot aan zijn dood door de pokken op 41-jarige leeftijd in 1718 bleef hij hoogleraar in Utrecht. Hij was getrouwd met Johanna Catharina Teelinck (dochter van Johan Teelinck, oud-burgemeester van Zierikzee), en vervolgens met Maria Hoffer, met wie hij een zoon en twee dochters had. Reland heeft zijn vaderland nooit verlaten; zijn kennis deed hij op in zijn studeerkamer. Hij werd begraven in De Rijp. De schilder Johan George Colasius schilderde tweemaal een portret van Reland. Het ene (ca. 1712-13) bevindt zich in het Centraal Museum te Utrecht, het andere (ca. 1710-15) in de senaatszaal van de Universiteit Utrecht.
(Translation Dutch-English) On 13-year-old age he went to study in Utrecht. He followed the colleges Latin and Greek in Johann Georg Graevius, Hebrew in Johan Leusden, theology in Melchior Leydekker and Herman Witsius, philosophy in Gerard de Vries and sure - and physics in the astronomer Johan Luyts. Of his fellow student Heinrich Sike from Bremen he Arabic learnt. He took one's doctoral degree in 1694 in the philosophy on a thesis The libertate philosophandi (Over the freedom from philosophizing), after that he to Leyden went. Here he studied in particular experimentative physics in Wolferd Senguerd and he was private-teacher of the son of Hans Willem Bentinck, the later earl of Portland, who him in vain him to Windsor request to keep company. In 1700 he became professor physics and metaphysics in Harderwijk. In the same year all was appointed he to professor oriental languages in Utrecht, truly he in 1701 be retained inaugural speech. In 1713 his doctrine assignment with the Jewish antiquities was extended. To on his death by the pocks on 41-birthday person age in 1718 he remain professor in Utrecht. He had married with Johanna Catharina Teelinck (daughter of Johan Teelinck, old-provost of Zierikzee), and subsequently with Mary Hoffer, with whom he a son and two daughters had. Redisembark has his fatherland never abandoned; His knowledge gained he in his studeerkamer. He was buried in The Ripe. The pictorial Johan George Colasius painted twice a portrait of Redisembarked. The one (approx. 1712- 13) finds in the Central Museum to Utrecht, the other (approx. 1710- 15) in the senate hall of the University Utrecht.
Cartografie (Translation Dutch-English)
Alastair Hamilton, ‘Adrianus Reland (1676-1718). Outstanding Orientalist’, in: Zes keer zestig. 360 jaar universitaire geschiedenis in zes biografieën, Utrecht 1996, 22-31
a b c d John Gorton, A General Biographical Dictionary, 1838, Whittaker & Co. |
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Wikiexaminer (
talk)
11:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Formatted the quouted text - put it into a table.
Regards -- Wikiexaminer ( talk) 23:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)