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A note to clarify regarding the Stein reaction: December 15, 2006 has not happened yet. Please fix the date. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.45.152.134 ( talk • contribs).
I've added the {{NPOV}} template to the article. Today, the article contains a brief lede paragraph and then the rest of the article is criticism. Clearly, this is not the proper Wikipedia neutral point of view as there must be at least something favorable to say about the book.
Atlant 21:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
An unregistered editor keeps blanking out the Dershowitz review, referring to a discussion on the Talk page. There is no discussion on the talk page, aside from borderline offensive ranting about the "Jewish lobby." I'm inclined to view this blanking as vandalism - if editors feel that the content here is lopsided, the right approach is to include quotes from favorable reviewers, not delete quotes from unfavorable ones. -- Leifern 16:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry about this stupid question, but why do zionists keep on quoting this most unprofessional writer who have been repeatedly proved to plaigiarise many of his writings? He is an unreliable, hardly objective let alone scholarly in his writings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.244.124.20 ( talk • contribs).
Does anyone think that the current edit might be unfairly weighted towards criticism of the book?
I'm not able to address this in detail at the moment, but I wonder if we should consider adding some further information to the article ... like, maybe, an overview of what the book actually says. CJCurrie 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV notice. In its current form, the article is little more than a series of negative reviews strung together. CJCurrie 04:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
CJCurrie, I think it would be reasonable to have more information about what the book says. So, how far are you in the book? 6SJ7 15:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"Does anyone think that the current edit might be unfairly weighted towards criticism of the book?": Yes, absolutely. To an ubiased observer, it would appear that this lopsided treatment serves to prove many of Carter's points. The "Praise" section is perfunctory, and the "Criticism" section is extensive. --15:53, 15 December 2006 139.68.134.1
Small problem -- Dershowitz claims that there are many factual innacuracies, but the only one he actually points out, that Israel's attack on Jordan during the Six Day War wasn't pre-emptive, is actually factual, according to its wikipedia acticle, which agrees with Carter. Any thoughts on how to write this up NPOV? I don't think Dershowitz is an expert on that conflict, such that we should change its lead to agree with him. -- Kendrick7 talk 02:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt, and then Jordan attacked Israel, after Israel begged it to stay out of the conflict. Dershowitz also points out other factual inaccuracies, including his claim that the "initial violence in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict occurred when "Jewish militants" attacked Arabs in 1939", ignoring, for example, such infamous events as the 1929 Hebron massacre. I've accurified your edits to the article; it's best not to try to edit these things if you're not familiar with the history of the period. More importantly, who is " Michael F. Brown at the Palestine Center", why would we care about his opinion, and what is he doing in a "Criticism" section, when he's clearly not criticizing the book? Jayjg (talk) 04:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a start: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=2680021
Excerpt: Carter's 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid' Former President Shares His Plan for Middle East Peace in New Book Nov. 27, 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.209.222.112 ( talk) 08:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
Can someone check whether Carter indeed wrote this ungrammatical sentence (emphasis mine): "a system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights"? Beit Or 15:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter won a Nobel Peace Prize for his work attempting to promote peace in the Middle East. This prize seems to recognize that he has some moral authority to speak about the issues regarding the Middle East, but now we see that one editor will not recognize this fact or, at least, permit it into the article. To me, this seems to be exactly the sort of PoV-pushing that I was referring to above when I added the NPOV tag to the article; the article has few or no positive statments and, in fact, when one is added, it's just as quickly reverted out again.
Do you understand that this is the sort of thing that leaves Wikipedia with very scant credibility in the world at large?
Atlant 13:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I didn't even know we were at war. Anyone else aware of this?? -- Kendrick7 talk 23:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Kenneth W. Stein, a professor of Middle Eastern history and Israeli studies at Emory University, resigned from his position as Middle East fellow with the Carter Center in protest against the book, breaking off 12 years of involvement with the center. He accused Carter of errors, omissions, plagiarism and of inventing information. [1]
The other day I added :On December 5, 2006, Kenneth Stein, a former Carter aide, resigned from his position as a fellow at the Carter Center and issued a public statement criticizing the book. Stein wrote: ::"President Carter's book on the Middle East, a title too inflammatory to even print, is not based on unvarnished analysis; it is replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments," Stein wrote. "Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book."
A user removed it for reasons that defy my comprehension. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Your edit summary said it was improper to insert POV. It boggles my mind that accurately reporting Kenneth Stein's (a long time Carter associate) statements and actions with regard to the book could be seen as POV. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Jimmy the Dhimmy plagiarized material, a map he did not credit [1]. It should be added... 88.113.137.249 16:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added in a section on the Ross controversy, using Ross, Carter and Stein's appearance on CNN's The Situation Room as a source. I was very careful not to say more than what the participants say (e.g. to avoid using the word plagiarism). My interpretation is that Ross is far too much of a diplomat to accuse a former president of plagiarism and that he thinks that just as important as Carter's attribution problem is Carter's argument that Israel rejected the American proposals at Camp David, which Ross thinks is wrong. GabrielF 01:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems questionable to include only critical views of the book, and then block further edits. While I know little about the book, clearly censorship is inconsistent with Wikipedia policy. Ujalm 18:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Here are some reviews:
I find the blocking inexplicable and am completely at a loss what the admin is waiting for before unblocking it. -- Leifern 19:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this entirely - no need to be a genius to know that there are two sides to every story. Clearly biased and one-sided criticisms of a piece of controversial work (written by a Nobel prize laureate no less!) in respect of which the world’s population taken as a whole is, at best, equally divided (otherwise mostly in favour of Carter’s position) only serves to discredit the objectiveness and validity of what those in control of this page are presumably trying to achieve. The manner in which information relating to contentious issues is presented on this site is critical to the relevance of wikipedia on a global platform. If one is looking for a biased perspective, Fox, CNN and Al Jazeera will do. Shame on those responsible for this site for allowing self-interested parties to take over what is meant to be a balanced source of information and turning it into another piece of the problem instead of a piece of the solution. AZ
Speaking frankly about Israel and Palestine, Jimmy Carter, LA Times. "Jimmy Carter says his recent book is drawing knee-jerk accusations of anti-Israel bias."
Quotes:
-- 64.230.125.115 11:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not mentioned in the current version of this article, but there is a documentary film crew following Jimmy Carter around. They are professionals who have had previous major films. It should be an interesting film given the controversy over the book and its reception. The working title is "He Comes in Peace" and it is being produced by Participant_Productions, a socially oriented production house responsible for Syrianna among others. Here is the story on Hollywood Reporter: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3i01ddb1dac0f7f4bdbbcd6bc13c187fd4 -- 64.230.125.115 12:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that this page should either be renamed "Criticisms of Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" or that much more Wikipedia content needs to be added about the actual contents of the book. -- YoYoDa1 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm much happier with where the article stands now because it now has response, and most importantly, information about the actual book. I was thinking that it is important to document the controversy surround it, but that it is more important to document the book itself. As I've said, I think the article is a lot better now than it was when I posted that. My main focus now would be working to improve all of the content in the article. -- YoYoDa1 20:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Based on above discussion, I removed NPOV tag for now. Support the request to have more information about the book's contents. -- GunnarRene 22:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The controversy really helps sell the book it seems. I checked the book's rank in the "Hardcover Non-Fiction" category of the highly reputable/notable New York Times Best Seller list. It is important to note that while the published rankings for each category list the top 35 best selling books for the week, only the top 16 books are officially designated as "New York Times ® Best Sellers."
Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" has ranked in the top 16 (twice now actually) and thus is officially a "New York Times ® Best Seller" (and probably going to be labelled as such on subsequent editions.) Here is the details and links:
-- 70.51.230.254 22:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A note to clarify regarding the Stein reaction: December 15, 2006 has not happened yet. Please fix the date. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.45.152.134 ( talk • contribs).
I've added the {{NPOV}} template to the article. Today, the article contains a brief lede paragraph and then the rest of the article is criticism. Clearly, this is not the proper Wikipedia neutral point of view as there must be at least something favorable to say about the book.
Atlant 21:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
An unregistered editor keeps blanking out the Dershowitz review, referring to a discussion on the Talk page. There is no discussion on the talk page, aside from borderline offensive ranting about the "Jewish lobby." I'm inclined to view this blanking as vandalism - if editors feel that the content here is lopsided, the right approach is to include quotes from favorable reviewers, not delete quotes from unfavorable ones. -- Leifern 16:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry about this stupid question, but why do zionists keep on quoting this most unprofessional writer who have been repeatedly proved to plaigiarise many of his writings? He is an unreliable, hardly objective let alone scholarly in his writings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.244.124.20 ( talk • contribs).
Does anyone think that the current edit might be unfairly weighted towards criticism of the book?
I'm not able to address this in detail at the moment, but I wonder if we should consider adding some further information to the article ... like, maybe, an overview of what the book actually says. CJCurrie 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV notice. In its current form, the article is little more than a series of negative reviews strung together. CJCurrie 04:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
CJCurrie, I think it would be reasonable to have more information about what the book says. So, how far are you in the book? 6SJ7 15:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
"Does anyone think that the current edit might be unfairly weighted towards criticism of the book?": Yes, absolutely. To an ubiased observer, it would appear that this lopsided treatment serves to prove many of Carter's points. The "Praise" section is perfunctory, and the "Criticism" section is extensive. --15:53, 15 December 2006 139.68.134.1
Small problem -- Dershowitz claims that there are many factual innacuracies, but the only one he actually points out, that Israel's attack on Jordan during the Six Day War wasn't pre-emptive, is actually factual, according to its wikipedia acticle, which agrees with Carter. Any thoughts on how to write this up NPOV? I don't think Dershowitz is an expert on that conflict, such that we should change its lead to agree with him. -- Kendrick7 talk 02:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Israel pre-emptively attacked Egypt, and then Jordan attacked Israel, after Israel begged it to stay out of the conflict. Dershowitz also points out other factual inaccuracies, including his claim that the "initial violence in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict occurred when "Jewish militants" attacked Arabs in 1939", ignoring, for example, such infamous events as the 1929 Hebron massacre. I've accurified your edits to the article; it's best not to try to edit these things if you're not familiar with the history of the period. More importantly, who is " Michael F. Brown at the Palestine Center", why would we care about his opinion, and what is he doing in a "Criticism" section, when he's clearly not criticizing the book? Jayjg (talk) 04:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a start: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=2680021
Excerpt: Carter's 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid' Former President Shares His Plan for Middle East Peace in New Book Nov. 27, 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.209.222.112 ( talk) 08:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
Can someone check whether Carter indeed wrote this ungrammatical sentence (emphasis mine): "a system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other, with Israelis totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights"? Beit Or 15:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Jimmy Carter won a Nobel Peace Prize for his work attempting to promote peace in the Middle East. This prize seems to recognize that he has some moral authority to speak about the issues regarding the Middle East, but now we see that one editor will not recognize this fact or, at least, permit it into the article. To me, this seems to be exactly the sort of PoV-pushing that I was referring to above when I added the NPOV tag to the article; the article has few or no positive statments and, in fact, when one is added, it's just as quickly reverted out again.
Do you understand that this is the sort of thing that leaves Wikipedia with very scant credibility in the world at large?
Atlant 13:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I didn't even know we were at war. Anyone else aware of this?? -- Kendrick7 talk 23:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Kenneth W. Stein, a professor of Middle Eastern history and Israeli studies at Emory University, resigned from his position as Middle East fellow with the Carter Center in protest against the book, breaking off 12 years of involvement with the center. He accused Carter of errors, omissions, plagiarism and of inventing information. [1]
The other day I added :On December 5, 2006, Kenneth Stein, a former Carter aide, resigned from his position as a fellow at the Carter Center and issued a public statement criticizing the book. Stein wrote: ::"President Carter's book on the Middle East, a title too inflammatory to even print, is not based on unvarnished analysis; it is replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments," Stein wrote. "Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book."
A user removed it for reasons that defy my comprehension. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Your edit summary said it was improper to insert POV. It boggles my mind that accurately reporting Kenneth Stein's (a long time Carter associate) statements and actions with regard to the book could be seen as POV. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Jimmy the Dhimmy plagiarized material, a map he did not credit [1]. It should be added... 88.113.137.249 16:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added in a section on the Ross controversy, using Ross, Carter and Stein's appearance on CNN's The Situation Room as a source. I was very careful not to say more than what the participants say (e.g. to avoid using the word plagiarism). My interpretation is that Ross is far too much of a diplomat to accuse a former president of plagiarism and that he thinks that just as important as Carter's attribution problem is Carter's argument that Israel rejected the American proposals at Camp David, which Ross thinks is wrong. GabrielF 01:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems questionable to include only critical views of the book, and then block further edits. While I know little about the book, clearly censorship is inconsistent with Wikipedia policy. Ujalm 18:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Here are some reviews:
I find the blocking inexplicable and am completely at a loss what the admin is waiting for before unblocking it. -- Leifern 19:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this entirely - no need to be a genius to know that there are two sides to every story. Clearly biased and one-sided criticisms of a piece of controversial work (written by a Nobel prize laureate no less!) in respect of which the world’s population taken as a whole is, at best, equally divided (otherwise mostly in favour of Carter’s position) only serves to discredit the objectiveness and validity of what those in control of this page are presumably trying to achieve. The manner in which information relating to contentious issues is presented on this site is critical to the relevance of wikipedia on a global platform. If one is looking for a biased perspective, Fox, CNN and Al Jazeera will do. Shame on those responsible for this site for allowing self-interested parties to take over what is meant to be a balanced source of information and turning it into another piece of the problem instead of a piece of the solution. AZ
Speaking frankly about Israel and Palestine, Jimmy Carter, LA Times. "Jimmy Carter says his recent book is drawing knee-jerk accusations of anti-Israel bias."
Quotes:
-- 64.230.125.115 11:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not mentioned in the current version of this article, but there is a documentary film crew following Jimmy Carter around. They are professionals who have had previous major films. It should be an interesting film given the controversy over the book and its reception. The working title is "He Comes in Peace" and it is being produced by Participant_Productions, a socially oriented production house responsible for Syrianna among others. Here is the story on Hollywood Reporter: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3i01ddb1dac0f7f4bdbbcd6bc13c187fd4 -- 64.230.125.115 12:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems that this page should either be renamed "Criticisms of Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" or that much more Wikipedia content needs to be added about the actual contents of the book. -- YoYoDa1 18:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm much happier with where the article stands now because it now has response, and most importantly, information about the actual book. I was thinking that it is important to document the controversy surround it, but that it is more important to document the book itself. As I've said, I think the article is a lot better now than it was when I posted that. My main focus now would be working to improve all of the content in the article. -- YoYoDa1 20:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Based on above discussion, I removed NPOV tag for now. Support the request to have more information about the book's contents. -- GunnarRene 22:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The controversy really helps sell the book it seems. I checked the book's rank in the "Hardcover Non-Fiction" category of the highly reputable/notable New York Times Best Seller list. It is important to note that while the published rankings for each category list the top 35 best selling books for the week, only the top 16 books are officially designated as "New York Times ® Best Sellers."
Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" has ranked in the top 16 (twice now actually) and thus is officially a "New York Times ® Best Seller" (and probably going to be labelled as such on subsequent editions.) Here is the details and links:
-- 70.51.230.254 22:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help); Unknown parameter |accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (
help)