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The structuring of this article remains a lot to be desired. Particularly the long rant under the subheading is somehow odd. Why make almost biblical lists of descent. Emperors and minor relatives are messed into one ramble. Where are the political reasons and implications of these relationships.
Does some writer imply that the entire dynasty had one politics during its 200 years. Did it alter when emperors changed. Did the time affect in any way. 217.140.193.123 19:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The structure (despised by me) was already there. I have added important dynastic information, and corrected some huge mistakes/misunderstandings; all the time wondering how to treat the less-than-desirably structured mess. Are you able to provide answers to questions above. 217.140.193.123 20:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
As I said in the edit summary earlier, whatever the merits of the page were before you got here, it's now much worse. I don't even know where to begin to fix it, so forget it. Adam Bishop 18:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The page is now somewhat better than as it was from you. However, the present page welcomes some work. Its strength now is a viable structure. 217.140.193.123 21:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added three SVG files of the Palaiologi Dynasty flags. Two I created a while back for the Byzantine Empire article, were taken from a heraldry book - Heraldry - Sources, Symbols and Meaning - which was, in turn, taken from the Conoscimiento de todos los Reinos, a major source of information on the flags of the fourteenth century. The other flag - with the double-headed eagle - is a more recent creation (based on various images of 14th Century depictions) Dragases 13:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
MUST we tranliterate Βασιλεύς Βασιλέων, Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων with the Modern Greek 'Vasilefs Vasileon, Vasilevon Vasilevonton'? Can we use the proper academic transliteration of 'Basileus Basileōn, Basileuōn Basileuontōn'? InfernoXV —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Anything about what happened to the family after the byzantine empire? BV —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.12.222.85 (
talk) 12:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Am proposing a move to Palaeologus dynasty or Palaeologan dynasty per WP:COMMONNAME. As we all know: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."
-- Director ( talk) 15:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
(unindent) I've previously come across the argument that "Palaeologus" is closer to English than "Palaiologos" (between other editors, cf. the discussions linked above), but this is complete nonsense. If anything, they are both equally unknown to the average English-speaking person. If "Völkerwanderung", "Schadenfreude" or "perestroika" can find a place in English, then the argument that the latinized forms are somehow inherently preferable is shot down. The only reason that they came about in the first place was the earlier predominance of Latin in Western Europe. In the same vein, we should revert Mumbai to Bombay, or Beijing to Peking (and guess what, Bombay has oodles more GBooks hits than Mumbai). In the relevant scholarly field, the ODB form is gaining ground and is used equally if not more than the latinized form, period. And the same goes for literally any historical field: the native forms are gaining ground, regardless of readability. We no longer say Mahomet or even Mohammed, but increasingly Muhammad. Mahomet II is now Mehmed II (and yes, Mahomet II is twice as common in GBooks as Mehmed II and four times more so than Mehmet II). In short, GBooks results are fine, but they don't paint the whole picture. One has to take trends in academia into account (have a look at Google Scholar results, for instance: Palaiologos (1420 hits) vs. Palaeologus (1790 hits), but in more recent literature, the ODB form becomes prevalent).
Furthermore, on the move process itself, I repeat: if you move the family name, you will also have to move the members of the family (a few dozen articles), and then you will have to move Komnenos to Comnenus, Kantakouzenos to Cantacuzenus, etc. Anything else is simply ridiculous and, if anything, would certainly lessen the readability of Byzantine articles. You cannot decide this on a case-by-case basis, because it runs counter to a long-standing (for Wikipedia), de facto consensus on precisely this theme: the transliteration for Byzantine names. There has to be uniformity, otherwise the argument for readbility and accessibility to the average reader makes no sense. So I would ask for more input from other editors than just my and DIREKTOR's arguments on this. Only with a broader consensus should this change take place, and then I would expect those involved to actually help with implementing it across the board. Constantine ✍ 12:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I just reverted a newly-created template which in my opinion is a POV addition to the article by making it appear as if the Byzantine Emperors were Latinised Roman Emperors. Any such new template must be discussed and approved prior to its use in any article, especially when it tries to erase the distinction between the Byzantine era and the old Roman Empire. Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 04:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Period - 11th century (founded) – 1678 (dissolved) - what does 1678 suppose to mean? Montferrat line died out in 16 century, but why 1678? Dorimi ( talk) 01:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
What does the name mean? Does anyone know? ahassan05
Is it acceptable to use spellings other than the Greek "Palaiologos"? See for example John II, Marquess of Montferrat ("Palaiologus") and List of rulers of Montferrat ("Palaiologo", which I haven't seen elsewhere and might just be a typo, but is plausible in the Italian context). Context seems important. I intensely dislike seeing anything but the Greek form in the context of Byzantine emperors, but for Italian rulers it seems more reasonable. I know a move of this page has been rejected, but I'm asking about use elsewhere. Hairy Dude ( talk) 23:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Should it not be Margaret Paleologa there, instead of John George, considering she held the title suo jure? André Anselmo ( talk) 16:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I am completely fine with it as i accidently did a double of my original family line i am so sorry for anyones misunderstanding 👍🏼 Diepanzerwaffles ( talk) 18:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
According to Steven Runciman's The Fall of Constantinople 1453 (1990), the House of Kastrioti, living today in Italy, represent the only descendants of Byzantine Emperor, Manuel II Palaiologos. This seems likely something worthy of being added. Dionysios Theotokas ( talk) 17:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Palaiologos article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The structuring of this article remains a lot to be desired. Particularly the long rant under the subheading is somehow odd. Why make almost biblical lists of descent. Emperors and minor relatives are messed into one ramble. Where are the political reasons and implications of these relationships.
Does some writer imply that the entire dynasty had one politics during its 200 years. Did it alter when emperors changed. Did the time affect in any way. 217.140.193.123 19:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
The structure (despised by me) was already there. I have added important dynastic information, and corrected some huge mistakes/misunderstandings; all the time wondering how to treat the less-than-desirably structured mess. Are you able to provide answers to questions above. 217.140.193.123 20:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
As I said in the edit summary earlier, whatever the merits of the page were before you got here, it's now much worse. I don't even know where to begin to fix it, so forget it. Adam Bishop 18:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The page is now somewhat better than as it was from you. However, the present page welcomes some work. Its strength now is a viable structure. 217.140.193.123 21:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added three SVG files of the Palaiologi Dynasty flags. Two I created a while back for the Byzantine Empire article, were taken from a heraldry book - Heraldry - Sources, Symbols and Meaning - which was, in turn, taken from the Conoscimiento de todos los Reinos, a major source of information on the flags of the fourteenth century. The other flag - with the double-headed eagle - is a more recent creation (based on various images of 14th Century depictions) Dragases 13:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
MUST we tranliterate Βασιλεύς Βασιλέων, Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων with the Modern Greek 'Vasilefs Vasileon, Vasilevon Vasilevonton'? Can we use the proper academic transliteration of 'Basileus Basileōn, Basileuōn Basileuontōn'? InfernoXV —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Anything about what happened to the family after the byzantine empire? BV —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
86.12.222.85 (
talk) 12:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Am proposing a move to Palaeologus dynasty or Palaeologan dynasty per WP:COMMONNAME. As we all know: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."
-- Director ( talk) 15:34, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
(unindent) I've previously come across the argument that "Palaeologus" is closer to English than "Palaiologos" (between other editors, cf. the discussions linked above), but this is complete nonsense. If anything, they are both equally unknown to the average English-speaking person. If "Völkerwanderung", "Schadenfreude" or "perestroika" can find a place in English, then the argument that the latinized forms are somehow inherently preferable is shot down. The only reason that they came about in the first place was the earlier predominance of Latin in Western Europe. In the same vein, we should revert Mumbai to Bombay, or Beijing to Peking (and guess what, Bombay has oodles more GBooks hits than Mumbai). In the relevant scholarly field, the ODB form is gaining ground and is used equally if not more than the latinized form, period. And the same goes for literally any historical field: the native forms are gaining ground, regardless of readability. We no longer say Mahomet or even Mohammed, but increasingly Muhammad. Mahomet II is now Mehmed II (and yes, Mahomet II is twice as common in GBooks as Mehmed II and four times more so than Mehmet II). In short, GBooks results are fine, but they don't paint the whole picture. One has to take trends in academia into account (have a look at Google Scholar results, for instance: Palaiologos (1420 hits) vs. Palaeologus (1790 hits), but in more recent literature, the ODB form becomes prevalent).
Furthermore, on the move process itself, I repeat: if you move the family name, you will also have to move the members of the family (a few dozen articles), and then you will have to move Komnenos to Comnenus, Kantakouzenos to Cantacuzenus, etc. Anything else is simply ridiculous and, if anything, would certainly lessen the readability of Byzantine articles. You cannot decide this on a case-by-case basis, because it runs counter to a long-standing (for Wikipedia), de facto consensus on precisely this theme: the transliteration for Byzantine names. There has to be uniformity, otherwise the argument for readbility and accessibility to the average reader makes no sense. So I would ask for more input from other editors than just my and DIREKTOR's arguments on this. Only with a broader consensus should this change take place, and then I would expect those involved to actually help with implementing it across the board. Constantine ✍ 12:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I just reverted a newly-created template which in my opinion is a POV addition to the article by making it appear as if the Byzantine Emperors were Latinised Roman Emperors. Any such new template must be discussed and approved prior to its use in any article, especially when it tries to erase the distinction between the Byzantine era and the old Roman Empire. Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 04:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Period - 11th century (founded) – 1678 (dissolved) - what does 1678 suppose to mean? Montferrat line died out in 16 century, but why 1678? Dorimi ( talk) 01:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
What does the name mean? Does anyone know? ahassan05
Is it acceptable to use spellings other than the Greek "Palaiologos"? See for example John II, Marquess of Montferrat ("Palaiologus") and List of rulers of Montferrat ("Palaiologo", which I haven't seen elsewhere and might just be a typo, but is plausible in the Italian context). Context seems important. I intensely dislike seeing anything but the Greek form in the context of Byzantine emperors, but for Italian rulers it seems more reasonable. I know a move of this page has been rejected, but I'm asking about use elsewhere. Hairy Dude ( talk) 23:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Should it not be Margaret Paleologa there, instead of John George, considering she held the title suo jure? André Anselmo ( talk) 16:23, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I am completely fine with it as i accidently did a double of my original family line i am so sorry for anyones misunderstanding 👍🏼 Diepanzerwaffles ( talk) 18:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
According to Steven Runciman's The Fall of Constantinople 1453 (1990), the House of Kastrioti, living today in Italy, represent the only descendants of Byzantine Emperor, Manuel II Palaiologos. This seems likely something worthy of being added. Dionysios Theotokas ( talk) 17:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)