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I think 203.99.49.41 is trying to resort to POV statements of his own. With many authors and various official statements including Pakistan and Indian counts specifying that the losses of both - which is included in the article, one would presume there would be no room for doubt. However 203.99.49.41 is trying to delete references to the war and trying to alter history in the process by writing very opinionated views. I have said it was "overrun" which signifies that the pakistan navy was overpowered both by numbers and significant hits. Instead the said user tries to use 2 sentences to explain the same and with lots of spelling errors and factual inaccuracies with poor incomplete english. I suggest that this user read information from every point, official as well as neutral on this war to understand that pakistan navy truly lost spectacularly and that I was trying to be as neutral as possible in covering the defeat. The truth might be hard to swallow, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.-- Idleguy 12:08, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapons_system
The Indian losses included INS Khurki, INS Kipran which was damaged beyond repair (by the PNS Hangor, though I may be wroong on that).
The Indian Navy performed well in 71 no doubt. But so did Pakistan Navy in the West at least. The fact remains the ships sunk were mostly gunboats, not capital ships. The Shahjahan was damaged but survived. Idleguy is using his own interpretation of the 71 score. A single click on his profile will reveal why.
Er Idleguy. Only two destroyers were hit by missiles. PNS Khyber(sunk) PNS Shahjahan(written off) as opposed to INS Khurki (sunk) INS Kipran (written off). Operation Trident resulted in about 1 caualty that was a minessweeper. Your nuetral source was a Russian one, anyone with a knowledge of the Sub-Continient knows that the Ruskies are hardly "neutral". As for Pakistani, only Tariq Ali mentions "half" the fleet (he is an ex-student leader) not a Navy Man. I have read all the article you have "referenced". THe Pakistani ones mention the threat posewd by Indian missles ( they were real), not the half a fleet loss as you like to say. After the Khyber loss the events on the Dacca showed the Navy how to handle the missiles and this led to the development of CIWS.
Not only were SLOCs in the West open, the Indian Navy did not blockade Karachi, they fired a pair of missile at it. Lets stick to REAL history not the Bollywood kind.
First of all the Humood-ur-Rehman commission report is NOT covered up in Pakistan, it was declassified in 1999.(the thirty year rule) The war aims of the Indian Navy were to blockade the port of Karachi and cut maritime comunications. The aim of the PN was to prevent this from happening. While the PNS Khyber was sunk and the Shahjahan damaged, the Indian Navy lost Khurki and Kipran damaged. After this the Indian Navy broke off and there was not any action by either Navy since they were all to scared the Pakistanis of Indian Missiles and the Indians of the Pakstani Subs. So what happned. A tactical draw, but a strategic victory for Pakistan since it ensured that Maritime communictaions were not servered nor Karachi blocked. IN other words the Navy achieved its objective.
Yes there were officers who behaved badly as did ones who fought well and bravely. This is true of all navies and indeed all organizations. I can agree that the Navy was short-sighted in not having a stronger force in the East, but till 71 niether had expected to ever fight there.
And there is freedom of the press, pls do not believe the so called Freedom Rankings, they only compare the Wests attitudes and than randomly place the rest (check out India's ranking if you don't believe me.)
The official Pakistani source cites the loss of the Khyber amd PNS Ghazi and the Indian losses. This is not disputed by me at all. What is are your asserations that
i) The Indian Navy suffered "negligable" loss. That is completely false.
ii) The Pakistan Navy 'lost'. The war in the West was a stalemate.
You say no officer will ever accept that he lost. Well the Japanese at Midway and the French at Trafalger (ever heard of THOSE?) would admit it, since it stared them in the face. THe Pakistani fleet was not destroyed ut successfully managed to achieve its pre-war objective (in the west at least.)
I am sorry idleguy (love the name by the way), but your knowleddge of Naval History and Strategy is nothing short of Pathetic. You suscribe to a Bollywood interpretation of history backed up by a shallow and selective interpretation of the facts at hand. Well no fear this is after all Wikipedia and you just need to browse around and learn.
cheers
if pns muhafiz (minesweeper) just fizzled into thin air in the arabian sea
if it was not sunk by INS Veer? Did you even know that 3 billion dollars worth of damage, most of the oil reserves and ammunition had been lost in and around Karachi port after the first series of attacks? and yet u call it a "a strategic victory for Pakistan"? May I ask how losing 7 warships (+couple of damages) is a strategic victory while inflicting 1 casuality (+1 damage)? All this just in the western side. If such is the thinking then no doubt the "strategy" worked fine for India in freeing Bangladesh. The objective of the Indian Navy was to inflict maximum casualities on the Karachi port and bottle it up. not "blockade", as there is a subtle difference between the two which translates to a lot in practice. The first was the operation trident which resulted in the sinking of Khyber and muhafiz and damage of shahjahah, and another merchant ship from US "Venus Challenger" ship carrying ammunitions went down during the operation. This was followed up by another partially successful operation called Operation Python during which PNS Dacca was damaged and a freighter and partrol boats were sunk. The Operation Triumph was the lone failure when pns hangor sunk ins khurkri and damaged another warship the INS Kirpan and not "Kipran" as u think. And by this time, the war nearing a close so it would have been a waste of resources to engage in further conflict in the west when the east had nearly fallen, that explains the reason why after the final operation no more naval attacks took place. I bet you have never heard of these operations yet continue to read the latest official line that omits all the failures.The fact is Pakistan actually lost more primary warships in the western front than the eastern front. the eastern front with the exception of pns ghazi lost primarily coast guard boats, merchant navy vessels and gunboats (or converted fishing boats as u claim without giving me the proof). If it's of dubious claim and the loss cannot be corraborated or if the damage isn't serious enough(reclaimed/repaired vessel) then it doesn't merit an inclusion here. for instance PNS Zulfiquar was hit by friendly fire by PAF, but was later recovered and wouldn't really be classified as a kill.
First of all apologies on the "negligent' part.
Secondly the minesweeper was not a major surface vessel.
Thirdly, thanks for the clarification on the INS Kipans name.
Now you say that 7 major warships were sunk, and than you contradict yourself by saying the majority were gunboats.
Converted Trawler: the defination of a Gunboat.
Now a strategic victory and a tactical victory are different. You may be defeted on the battle field but may achieve whatever your objective was. Example in the Battle of Jutland the Brits lost more ships but the German fleet remained in port for the remainder of the war.
THe purpose of the Indian Navy was to blockade Karachi and cut off maritime communications. They failed in both. It was not to inflict as much damage on the PN on its own at least. THe damage had to have a purpose, to reduce the PN's fighting ability so as to achieve the objective.
THe Indian Navy fought well and can be proud of 71, but the fact is that both Navy's after their initial losses were not egar to fight.
I am not disputing the figures but you interpratation of them.
cheers
IMO The phrase "largely overrun" should only be used if Pakistan Navy vessels were either destroyed or forced into retreat much more frequently than the Indian Navy vessels were (say, 70% or the battles). Otherwise, I would suggest a more neutral phrase like "the Navy struggled to keep the coast protected."
For now I have removed the sentence By the end of the war, "Pakistan Navy had lost half its Naval fleet" (Pakistan author Tariq Ali). AFAIK, in modern warfare, comparative losses are normally counted in tons of shipping, this being a reasonable manner of equating the economic and military effect of disparate styles and sizes of vessel. When or if comparisons (whether between the adversaries or between before and after) are done on that basis, I suggest vague statements from whomever and of whatever nationality do not belong here.
Please remember that this is an article about the Pakistan Navy not about the war. Some of what is being argued over does not belong on this page: it should go onto a separate article to do with the war. That includes at least the data on the Indian losses under 'Role in 1971 War', if not the losses for both sides (to avoid replication). Such an article is also the place for any detailed engagements during the war. If this war is the one covered by Bangladesh Liberation War then there should be a link here to it (as Pakistani Civil War?) and a naval section inserted in it.
Of the two pictures that seem to be contentious, I have included the one of PNS/M Ghazi. I see no reason for it not to be here but I have excluded the word 'proud' as sounding jingoistic and not at all verifiable. Until or unless there is textual mention of the Commandos, I see no reason for there to be a picture and have excluded it.
Now that a third person (me) has stepped in to help sort this mess out, I ask you BOTH to REFRAIN FROM VANDALISM and to respect my time. I don't claim to have the article perfect but will keep an eye out. I suggest that if you want to re-introduce any text that I have missed out, you place it here an let me look it over and include it or comment on it.
-- Douglas 13:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest user Douglas tries to read the references and also http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/october/military.htm (from Pak commander) to get a full picture of why this article is not POV. The user which Douglas loves to refer to has been temporarily blocked (though he might return again). Someone else has already listed the images and text he has uploaded as copyvio and so the images have to be removed. But Douglas would assume that I'm pushing my version of history and try to revert to copyvio text and images or put a simply POV without reading anything in the references section or on the internet. I asked why POV was inserted when all i did was improve the article(like i've done again), instead he fails to answer the question. I think pov statements aren't to be taken lightly when considerable research has been done. What happened was this: a vandal and copyvio user started pushing his POV across various india pak related articles. suddenly when his sources and neutrality and copyrights were questioned some others mistook it otherwise including Douglas. Previous debates were settled and the neutrality of articles are disputed only when the figures are sketchy. In this scenario there was little of that. I'll explain why:
PLEASE READ AND MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. But don't be hasty for anyone can add {pov}, but it takes considerable time in developing a fairly reasonable article.-- Idleguy 13:53, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
The articles says ten and ten says none. Which is it? Jinian 16:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
maru (talk) contribs 04:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To anon. See the article PNS Ghazi which uses a reference from B.Harry (just hosted on Bharat Rakshak not written by them) that states that Indian ships were actively searching for Ghazi and not "bottled" as DefenceJournal (a Pakistani source) claims. This is backed up by another neutral source Orbat.com which states nowhere that she was "bottling" up the "entire IN western fleet" as you keep claiming. It merely states "she was deployed off Bombay to attack only Heavy ships or ships moving intercept Dwarka Task Force" and goes on to say "she tracked several ships moving in and out of Bombay, but did not attack as she was to attack only the heavy targets. Hardly the kind of bottling you'd normally associate with a Naval blockade!. Please try to use non-biased sources, when available, in the future to avoid these very sort of exaggerations. Tx -- Idleguy 13:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
To Idleguy. The article used as a reference is written by Mr. B. Harry who is a known Indian origin contributor and can hardly be classified as a 'non partisan' source. So that source should be negated due to blind nationalistic bias introduced by the author.
The submarine did attack an A/A frigate which came out of the harbor as is mentioned on the very source you provided. The blockade was directed towards the Indian Navy's western fleet and not towards any civilian shipping. Please know that this is an encyclopedia and the more verifiable information it has the better, even if it goes against your point of view. Thanks.
Red aRRow
To Idleguy. Judging from the discussions above and from your contributions, it isn't the first time you are blending in blind nationalism and propaganda into articles related to Pakistan. If some words such as 'blockade' are causing you discomfort go ahead and perform the minor edits. However blindly removing complete paragraphs of facts and historical evidence just because they do not conform to your personal versions of events or history will not help.
Red aRRow
To idleguy: I have removed the contentious words of 'blockade' and made other minor adjustments in order to reach a compromise. Hopefully the changes will be to the satisfaction of all parties.
Red aRRow
The fleet strength is not uptodate.
The Official website is provididing information on 1 Leander class frigate and it is used as training ship.
3 French Eridan Class Mine Hunter vessels is already listed no need to add it again and again.
From official website only 3 Jalalat class are in service
These two were inducted in 1970's and must have been decommissioned. Chanakyathegreat 10:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
To Chanakyathegreat: 'Must have been decommissioned' isn't actually verifiable unless we can find a source. By the way why are you deleting the line which states PNS Ghazi was deployed against Indian Western Fleet at Bombay?? It doesn't seem to be a provocative or a biased statement. I'm confused. 12:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Says in the article on the PNS Ghazi that she went down in unexplained circumstances. Says in the Pakistan Navy article that she went down because of a mishap while laying mines. Methinks the two stories need to jive and they currently don't. Opinions? Marathi_Mulgaa ( talk) 08:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
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The statement that "At the speed of 400 knots at which the shootdown occurred most of the wreckage could have been expected to land at least 25 miles from the shootdown; the fact that all of the wreckage fell in Pakistani territory would tend to vindicate Pakistani claims that the aircraft did not violate indian airspace." needs close examination - or deletion.
The aircraft crashed within Pakistani territorial waters - that seems clear. But that does not "vindicate Pakistani claims that the aircraft did not violate indian airspace". Absolutely not - this is a non sequitur. The plane was within Pakistanti territory when shot down, that is all. I recommend the deletion of this statement. JohnC ( talk) 09:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
No you can't. If it violated Indian airspace, it needs to be known SReader21 ( talk) 06:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Agosta 70 are not equipped with AIP. Agosta 90 are; Hamza (agosta 90B/Khalid class) was built with the Mesma AIP and the other two subs in that class were to/are retrofitted with it. [1] However the point on the nuclear powered submarine probably needs to be updated Barath s ( talk) 11:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
There's a discussion on the frigate article which users here might be interested in. 88.106.86.91 ( talk) 18:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/09/pakistan-navy-chief-corruption-puts.html
I think this is the same as this author:
http://www.amazon.com/Century-Islamic-State-Meinhaj-Hussain/dp/0615377505
But it seems to be too much of a personal blog to use here. Hcobb ( talk) 12:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, second-hand, but new to the Pakistan Navy. PNS Rah Naward was purchased in September 2010. Not sure what use she will be put to, but suspect it will be sail training and PR-type work. Not sure where to add the ship to the article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:04, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I am looking for a complete list of all RPN/PN vessels (all types) used from 1947 to date. Is there one on Wikipedia? if not can it be created? thanks Rzafar ( talk) 11:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
the pakistani losses were only pns.khyber, pns.muhafiz and pns.ghazi(sunk due to its own mine). while pns.shahjehan was damaged and it was tugged back to karachi and repaired and it kept on serving in the pakistan navy till 1982 wen until it was scrapped off. on the eastern theatre pakistan navy lost only 1 gunboat (commilla) and got 1 damaged (rajshahi). all these gunboats were improvised fishing boats fixed with 46mm guns(witness to surrender by brig.siddique salik). one the western front only 1 gunboat was lost. the indian losses on the other hand were also heavy.one the eastern front she lost 3 gunboats to her own 3 MiGs,near khulna, almost two dozen sailors were killed and more than 40 were captured by pakistan's 53 brigade comanded by brig.makhmad hayat.this is not mentioned by any indian in the discussion. on the western front indian lost 1 frigate,ins.khukri, while 1 was damaged,the ins.kirpan. moreover the pakistan navy and airforce collectively destroyed 5 indian gunboats. and 11 IAF warplanes were shotdown by the pakistan navy. an indian naval alizee was shotdown by an f-104 starfighter of PAF. a latest research led by indians state tat the karachi oil terminals were set ablaze by IAF and not missile boats( http://www.indiadefenceupdate.com/news94.html). the indians tried to block karachi and they cuz of pakistani submarines. the pakistani navy was never defeated,had it been so the indian navy wud hav been anchoring near karachi lik american navy did in saipan or okinawa. the war ended in a stalemate with indian navy suffering slighly greater losses than pakistan navy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.223.13 ( talk) 05:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Does Pak Navy has Northern Naval Command (NNC) and Eastern Naval Command (ENC) Please Verify this , it is given in the InfoBox of PAk navy but seems to me a mistake. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 22:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
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I think 203.99.49.41 is trying to resort to POV statements of his own. With many authors and various official statements including Pakistan and Indian counts specifying that the losses of both - which is included in the article, one would presume there would be no room for doubt. However 203.99.49.41 is trying to delete references to the war and trying to alter history in the process by writing very opinionated views. I have said it was "overrun" which signifies that the pakistan navy was overpowered both by numbers and significant hits. Instead the said user tries to use 2 sentences to explain the same and with lots of spelling errors and factual inaccuracies with poor incomplete english. I suggest that this user read information from every point, official as well as neutral on this war to understand that pakistan navy truly lost spectacularly and that I was trying to be as neutral as possible in covering the defeat. The truth might be hard to swallow, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.-- Idleguy 12:08, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapons_system
The Indian losses included INS Khurki, INS Kipran which was damaged beyond repair (by the PNS Hangor, though I may be wroong on that).
The Indian Navy performed well in 71 no doubt. But so did Pakistan Navy in the West at least. The fact remains the ships sunk were mostly gunboats, not capital ships. The Shahjahan was damaged but survived. Idleguy is using his own interpretation of the 71 score. A single click on his profile will reveal why.
Er Idleguy. Only two destroyers were hit by missiles. PNS Khyber(sunk) PNS Shahjahan(written off) as opposed to INS Khurki (sunk) INS Kipran (written off). Operation Trident resulted in about 1 caualty that was a minessweeper. Your nuetral source was a Russian one, anyone with a knowledge of the Sub-Continient knows that the Ruskies are hardly "neutral". As for Pakistani, only Tariq Ali mentions "half" the fleet (he is an ex-student leader) not a Navy Man. I have read all the article you have "referenced". THe Pakistani ones mention the threat posewd by Indian missles ( they were real), not the half a fleet loss as you like to say. After the Khyber loss the events on the Dacca showed the Navy how to handle the missiles and this led to the development of CIWS.
Not only were SLOCs in the West open, the Indian Navy did not blockade Karachi, they fired a pair of missile at it. Lets stick to REAL history not the Bollywood kind.
First of all the Humood-ur-Rehman commission report is NOT covered up in Pakistan, it was declassified in 1999.(the thirty year rule) The war aims of the Indian Navy were to blockade the port of Karachi and cut maritime comunications. The aim of the PN was to prevent this from happening. While the PNS Khyber was sunk and the Shahjahan damaged, the Indian Navy lost Khurki and Kipran damaged. After this the Indian Navy broke off and there was not any action by either Navy since they were all to scared the Pakistanis of Indian Missiles and the Indians of the Pakstani Subs. So what happned. A tactical draw, but a strategic victory for Pakistan since it ensured that Maritime communictaions were not servered nor Karachi blocked. IN other words the Navy achieved its objective.
Yes there were officers who behaved badly as did ones who fought well and bravely. This is true of all navies and indeed all organizations. I can agree that the Navy was short-sighted in not having a stronger force in the East, but till 71 niether had expected to ever fight there.
And there is freedom of the press, pls do not believe the so called Freedom Rankings, they only compare the Wests attitudes and than randomly place the rest (check out India's ranking if you don't believe me.)
The official Pakistani source cites the loss of the Khyber amd PNS Ghazi and the Indian losses. This is not disputed by me at all. What is are your asserations that
i) The Indian Navy suffered "negligable" loss. That is completely false.
ii) The Pakistan Navy 'lost'. The war in the West was a stalemate.
You say no officer will ever accept that he lost. Well the Japanese at Midway and the French at Trafalger (ever heard of THOSE?) would admit it, since it stared them in the face. THe Pakistani fleet was not destroyed ut successfully managed to achieve its pre-war objective (in the west at least.)
I am sorry idleguy (love the name by the way), but your knowleddge of Naval History and Strategy is nothing short of Pathetic. You suscribe to a Bollywood interpretation of history backed up by a shallow and selective interpretation of the facts at hand. Well no fear this is after all Wikipedia and you just need to browse around and learn.
cheers
if pns muhafiz (minesweeper) just fizzled into thin air in the arabian sea
if it was not sunk by INS Veer? Did you even know that 3 billion dollars worth of damage, most of the oil reserves and ammunition had been lost in and around Karachi port after the first series of attacks? and yet u call it a "a strategic victory for Pakistan"? May I ask how losing 7 warships (+couple of damages) is a strategic victory while inflicting 1 casuality (+1 damage)? All this just in the western side. If such is the thinking then no doubt the "strategy" worked fine for India in freeing Bangladesh. The objective of the Indian Navy was to inflict maximum casualities on the Karachi port and bottle it up. not "blockade", as there is a subtle difference between the two which translates to a lot in practice. The first was the operation trident which resulted in the sinking of Khyber and muhafiz and damage of shahjahah, and another merchant ship from US "Venus Challenger" ship carrying ammunitions went down during the operation. This was followed up by another partially successful operation called Operation Python during which PNS Dacca was damaged and a freighter and partrol boats were sunk. The Operation Triumph was the lone failure when pns hangor sunk ins khurkri and damaged another warship the INS Kirpan and not "Kipran" as u think. And by this time, the war nearing a close so it would have been a waste of resources to engage in further conflict in the west when the east had nearly fallen, that explains the reason why after the final operation no more naval attacks took place. I bet you have never heard of these operations yet continue to read the latest official line that omits all the failures.The fact is Pakistan actually lost more primary warships in the western front than the eastern front. the eastern front with the exception of pns ghazi lost primarily coast guard boats, merchant navy vessels and gunboats (or converted fishing boats as u claim without giving me the proof). If it's of dubious claim and the loss cannot be corraborated or if the damage isn't serious enough(reclaimed/repaired vessel) then it doesn't merit an inclusion here. for instance PNS Zulfiquar was hit by friendly fire by PAF, but was later recovered and wouldn't really be classified as a kill.
First of all apologies on the "negligent' part.
Secondly the minesweeper was not a major surface vessel.
Thirdly, thanks for the clarification on the INS Kipans name.
Now you say that 7 major warships were sunk, and than you contradict yourself by saying the majority were gunboats.
Converted Trawler: the defination of a Gunboat.
Now a strategic victory and a tactical victory are different. You may be defeted on the battle field but may achieve whatever your objective was. Example in the Battle of Jutland the Brits lost more ships but the German fleet remained in port for the remainder of the war.
THe purpose of the Indian Navy was to blockade Karachi and cut off maritime communications. They failed in both. It was not to inflict as much damage on the PN on its own at least. THe damage had to have a purpose, to reduce the PN's fighting ability so as to achieve the objective.
THe Indian Navy fought well and can be proud of 71, but the fact is that both Navy's after their initial losses were not egar to fight.
I am not disputing the figures but you interpratation of them.
cheers
IMO The phrase "largely overrun" should only be used if Pakistan Navy vessels were either destroyed or forced into retreat much more frequently than the Indian Navy vessels were (say, 70% or the battles). Otherwise, I would suggest a more neutral phrase like "the Navy struggled to keep the coast protected."
For now I have removed the sentence By the end of the war, "Pakistan Navy had lost half its Naval fleet" (Pakistan author Tariq Ali). AFAIK, in modern warfare, comparative losses are normally counted in tons of shipping, this being a reasonable manner of equating the economic and military effect of disparate styles and sizes of vessel. When or if comparisons (whether between the adversaries or between before and after) are done on that basis, I suggest vague statements from whomever and of whatever nationality do not belong here.
Please remember that this is an article about the Pakistan Navy not about the war. Some of what is being argued over does not belong on this page: it should go onto a separate article to do with the war. That includes at least the data on the Indian losses under 'Role in 1971 War', if not the losses for both sides (to avoid replication). Such an article is also the place for any detailed engagements during the war. If this war is the one covered by Bangladesh Liberation War then there should be a link here to it (as Pakistani Civil War?) and a naval section inserted in it.
Of the two pictures that seem to be contentious, I have included the one of PNS/M Ghazi. I see no reason for it not to be here but I have excluded the word 'proud' as sounding jingoistic and not at all verifiable. Until or unless there is textual mention of the Commandos, I see no reason for there to be a picture and have excluded it.
Now that a third person (me) has stepped in to help sort this mess out, I ask you BOTH to REFRAIN FROM VANDALISM and to respect my time. I don't claim to have the article perfect but will keep an eye out. I suggest that if you want to re-introduce any text that I have missed out, you place it here an let me look it over and include it or comment on it.
-- Douglas 13:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I suggest user Douglas tries to read the references and also http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/october/military.htm (from Pak commander) to get a full picture of why this article is not POV. The user which Douglas loves to refer to has been temporarily blocked (though he might return again). Someone else has already listed the images and text he has uploaded as copyvio and so the images have to be removed. But Douglas would assume that I'm pushing my version of history and try to revert to copyvio text and images or put a simply POV without reading anything in the references section or on the internet. I asked why POV was inserted when all i did was improve the article(like i've done again), instead he fails to answer the question. I think pov statements aren't to be taken lightly when considerable research has been done. What happened was this: a vandal and copyvio user started pushing his POV across various india pak related articles. suddenly when his sources and neutrality and copyrights were questioned some others mistook it otherwise including Douglas. Previous debates were settled and the neutrality of articles are disputed only when the figures are sketchy. In this scenario there was little of that. I'll explain why:
PLEASE READ AND MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. But don't be hasty for anyone can add {pov}, but it takes considerable time in developing a fairly reasonable article.-- Idleguy 13:53, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
The articles says ten and ten says none. Which is it? Jinian 16:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
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To anon. See the article PNS Ghazi which uses a reference from B.Harry (just hosted on Bharat Rakshak not written by them) that states that Indian ships were actively searching for Ghazi and not "bottled" as DefenceJournal (a Pakistani source) claims. This is backed up by another neutral source Orbat.com which states nowhere that she was "bottling" up the "entire IN western fleet" as you keep claiming. It merely states "she was deployed off Bombay to attack only Heavy ships or ships moving intercept Dwarka Task Force" and goes on to say "she tracked several ships moving in and out of Bombay, but did not attack as she was to attack only the heavy targets. Hardly the kind of bottling you'd normally associate with a Naval blockade!. Please try to use non-biased sources, when available, in the future to avoid these very sort of exaggerations. Tx -- Idleguy 13:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
To Idleguy. The article used as a reference is written by Mr. B. Harry who is a known Indian origin contributor and can hardly be classified as a 'non partisan' source. So that source should be negated due to blind nationalistic bias introduced by the author.
The submarine did attack an A/A frigate which came out of the harbor as is mentioned on the very source you provided. The blockade was directed towards the Indian Navy's western fleet and not towards any civilian shipping. Please know that this is an encyclopedia and the more verifiable information it has the better, even if it goes against your point of view. Thanks.
Red aRRow
To Idleguy. Judging from the discussions above and from your contributions, it isn't the first time you are blending in blind nationalism and propaganda into articles related to Pakistan. If some words such as 'blockade' are causing you discomfort go ahead and perform the minor edits. However blindly removing complete paragraphs of facts and historical evidence just because they do not conform to your personal versions of events or history will not help.
Red aRRow
To idleguy: I have removed the contentious words of 'blockade' and made other minor adjustments in order to reach a compromise. Hopefully the changes will be to the satisfaction of all parties.
Red aRRow
The fleet strength is not uptodate.
The Official website is provididing information on 1 Leander class frigate and it is used as training ship.
3 French Eridan Class Mine Hunter vessels is already listed no need to add it again and again.
From official website only 3 Jalalat class are in service
These two were inducted in 1970's and must have been decommissioned. Chanakyathegreat 10:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
To Chanakyathegreat: 'Must have been decommissioned' isn't actually verifiable unless we can find a source. By the way why are you deleting the line which states PNS Ghazi was deployed against Indian Western Fleet at Bombay?? It doesn't seem to be a provocative or a biased statement. I'm confused. 12:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Says in the article on the PNS Ghazi that she went down in unexplained circumstances. Says in the Pakistan Navy article that she went down because of a mishap while laying mines. Methinks the two stories need to jive and they currently don't. Opinions? Marathi_Mulgaa ( talk) 08:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Agosta-cutaway.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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The statement that "At the speed of 400 knots at which the shootdown occurred most of the wreckage could have been expected to land at least 25 miles from the shootdown; the fact that all of the wreckage fell in Pakistani territory would tend to vindicate Pakistani claims that the aircraft did not violate indian airspace." needs close examination - or deletion.
The aircraft crashed within Pakistani territorial waters - that seems clear. But that does not "vindicate Pakistani claims that the aircraft did not violate indian airspace". Absolutely not - this is a non sequitur. The plane was within Pakistanti territory when shot down, that is all. I recommend the deletion of this statement. JohnC ( talk) 09:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
No you can't. If it violated Indian airspace, it needs to be known SReader21 ( talk) 06:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Agosta 70 are not equipped with AIP. Agosta 90 are; Hamza (agosta 90B/Khalid class) was built with the Mesma AIP and the other two subs in that class were to/are retrofitted with it. [1] However the point on the nuclear powered submarine probably needs to be updated Barath s ( talk) 11:21, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
There's a discussion on the frigate article which users here might be interested in. 88.106.86.91 ( talk) 18:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/09/pakistan-navy-chief-corruption-puts.html
I think this is the same as this author:
http://www.amazon.com/Century-Islamic-State-Meinhaj-Hussain/dp/0615377505
But it seems to be too much of a personal blog to use here. Hcobb ( talk) 12:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, second-hand, but new to the Pakistan Navy. PNS Rah Naward was purchased in September 2010. Not sure what use she will be put to, but suspect it will be sail training and PR-type work. Not sure where to add the ship to the article. Mjroots ( talk) 18:04, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I am looking for a complete list of all RPN/PN vessels (all types) used from 1947 to date. Is there one on Wikipedia? if not can it be created? thanks Rzafar ( talk) 11:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
the pakistani losses were only pns.khyber, pns.muhafiz and pns.ghazi(sunk due to its own mine). while pns.shahjehan was damaged and it was tugged back to karachi and repaired and it kept on serving in the pakistan navy till 1982 wen until it was scrapped off. on the eastern theatre pakistan navy lost only 1 gunboat (commilla) and got 1 damaged (rajshahi). all these gunboats were improvised fishing boats fixed with 46mm guns(witness to surrender by brig.siddique salik). one the western front only 1 gunboat was lost. the indian losses on the other hand were also heavy.one the eastern front she lost 3 gunboats to her own 3 MiGs,near khulna, almost two dozen sailors were killed and more than 40 were captured by pakistan's 53 brigade comanded by brig.makhmad hayat.this is not mentioned by any indian in the discussion. on the western front indian lost 1 frigate,ins.khukri, while 1 was damaged,the ins.kirpan. moreover the pakistan navy and airforce collectively destroyed 5 indian gunboats. and 11 IAF warplanes were shotdown by the pakistan navy. an indian naval alizee was shotdown by an f-104 starfighter of PAF. a latest research led by indians state tat the karachi oil terminals were set ablaze by IAF and not missile boats( http://www.indiadefenceupdate.com/news94.html). the indians tried to block karachi and they cuz of pakistani submarines. the pakistani navy was never defeated,had it been so the indian navy wud hav been anchoring near karachi lik american navy did in saipan or okinawa. the war ended in a stalemate with indian navy suffering slighly greater losses than pakistan navy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.223.13 ( talk) 05:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Does Pak Navy has Northern Naval Command (NNC) and Eastern Naval Command (ENC) Please Verify this , it is given in the InfoBox of PAk navy but seems to me a mistake. -- Ðℬig XЯaɣ 22:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
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Does anyone object to me splitting of the list of serving admirals on the page into a separate article such as List of Pakistan Navy admirals, along the lines of List of South African admirals or List of Australian admirals? This list can include serving and former admirals. Thoughts? Gbawden ( talk) 06:40, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Pakistan Navy's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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I think we can remove both the lists of ships and submarines from this article. There already exists an article List of active Pakistan Navy ships which contains the same duplicate information. This will be in line with other Navy pages as well where the list lives in a separate article. Adamgerber80 ( talk) 00:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I created a list of Pakistan Navy admirals which was then moved to a list of serving Navy admirals. I solicited opinions at WPMILHIST and the concensus was that a complete list was a good idea so I recreated List of Pakistan Navy admirals. This is in line with similar lists on WP. A group of users disagree and keep changing it back to a list of serving admirals only. I am tired of reverting - can someone else help with this? If there needs to be two lists so be it. Gbawden ( talk) 05:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hi Faraz, Please discuss your specific issues here. What is the reason for removing all updated information? Thanks. Adamgerber80 ( talk) 00:17, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
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i wanted to nayi soldier 2400:ADCC:116:9400:AC65:2500:6244:EBE0 ( talk) 07:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)