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The table in the thread #analogy table above uses 6 criteria for pain reception taken from a 2012 book by Varner. The 2014 paper by Sneddon et al [1] uses what is at base the same table, but extended to 17 criteria. I would like to see the current analogy table in the Wikipedia article extended, perhaps in the following manner, with separate columns for jawless, lobe-finned, cartilaginous and bony fishes.
Criteria for pain reception in fish | |||||
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Criteria | |||||
Jawless fish | Cartilaginous fish | Bony fish | Lobe-finned fish | ||
neuro- anatomy |
Has nociceptors | ![]() |
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Pathways to central nervous system | ![]() |
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Central processing in brain | ![]() |
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Receptors for analgesic drugs | ![]() |
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behaviour | Physiological responses | ![]() |
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Movement away from noxious stimuli | ![]() |
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Behavioural changes from norm | ![]() |
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Protective behaviour | ![]() |
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Responses reduced by analgesic drugs | ![]() |
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Self administration of analgesia | ![]() |
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Responses with high priority over other stimuli | ![]() |
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Pay cost to access analgesia | ![]() |
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Altered behavioural choices/preferences | ![]() |
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Relief learning | ? | ||||
Rubbing, limping or guarding | ![]() |
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Paying a cost to avoid stimulus | ![]() |
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Tradeoffs with other requirements | ![]() |
I would also like to see some space made for a discussion on the evolution of pain. Jawless fish are of particular interest in that context, since they were the earliest of the vertebrates. Likewise lobe-finned fish are ancestral to the tetrapods and humans. It may be that there is not a lot of material specific to lobe-finned and jawless fish, but we can have a framework here which will hopefully become more complete over the next few years. Researchers recently have been identifying more and more behaviours that might be regarded as pain behaviours, and this accumulation seems to me building to a form of consilience. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 09:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Since fish include half of all vertebrate species, I agree with a table comparing say the results for bony fish with the main tetrapod groups, but I think it is going too far to start comparing invertebrates as well. At that point we are starting to compare everything. That would more properly done in the general article, Pain in animals. The article Pain in invertebrates could also discuss the comparison with vertebrates, because the issue of pain in vertebrates is less controversial than invertebrates. This is not withholding "critical information from the reader", it is merely positioning it in more appropriate places. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 03:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Is the lead image appropriate? Sailfish are not mentioned at all in the article and I can not see that the fish in the image has even been hooked. I'm not entirely sure what I would like to see replace it, but I thought I would raise the point.DrChrissy (talk) 17:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Caption Given that the caption of the lead image may be the very first content that is read, I feel it should reflect why there is controversy - I suggest it reads - "...is debated by some scientists due to fish lacking a neocortex in the brain."
I have tried to remedy some of the biases and inconsistencies that have snuck into this page in recent revisions. reasons for the edits are explained below.
2nd paragraph Included: However, on the other hand science also shows there are also several neurobiological features in fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception, while modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain (Key 2014).
Why ? To balance the content of the earlier paragraph in light of current scientific knowledge of the topic
3rd paragraph
Deleted: Both scientists and animal protection advocates have raised concerns about the possible suffering (pain and fear) of fish caused by angling.
Why ? Due to redundancies with previous paragraph (angling/sport fisheries mentioned twice) and the fact that Lynn Sneddons science group is the only one raising concerns about the need to use anaethetics while removing fish hooks etc. - by such statements they have proven they are also advocates - the vast majority of fish and fisheries scientists around the world have not raised such concerns.
Reptiles and amphibians:
Inserted: However, as pointed out by Key (2014), modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain.
why ? because it is improper to provide a list of scientifically unvalidated criteria and try to pass it off as having scientific concensus when the problem is being discussed in the scientific literature.
Argument by analogy
Inserted: However, argument by analogy is recognized as a very anthropomorphic way of assessing animal behaviours, and thus is incapable of providing sufficient evidence in support of human-like attributes in animals Lehman (1997). Anthropomorphism and scientific evidence for animal mental states. In : Mitchell et al (eds). Anthropomorphisms, Anecdotes and Animals State University of New York Press, pp 104-116
why ? because laypeople/readers need to know this when you try to bring arguments by analogy into the debate.
The experience of pain:
To address this problem when assessing the capacity of other species to experience pain, argument-by-analogy is SOMETIMES used. This is based on the ANTHROPOMORPHIC principle that if an animal responds to a stimulus in a similar way to ourselves, it is likely to have had an analogous experience.
why ? As above, laypeople/readers need to know this when you try to bring arguments by analogy into the debate.
Removed: To address this problem when assessing the capacity of other species to experience pain, argument-by-analogy is used. This is based on the principle that if an animal responds to a stimulus in a similar way to ourselves, it is likely to have had an analogous experience.
why ? again, see above, argument by analogy is a very poor and anthropomorphic method which lacks scientific validity.
Added: A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) emphasized, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.’
Wall, P.D. (1999) Pain: neurophysiological mechanisms. In: Encyclopedia of Neuroscience (eds G. Adelman and B. Smith). Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 1565–1567.
why ? People need to know what pain is , and what it is not, and the current page does not provide this
Physical pain
Added: However, the validity of these criteria for proving pain perception has been questioned by several scientists (Rose et al 2012, Key 2015)
Why: to retain balance and demonstrate the problems with these criteria. There is no scientific concensus that these criteria have been at all validated in fish
Research findings
Removed: ===Nervous system=== In 2015, Lynne Sneddon, Director of Veterinary Science at the University of Liverpool, wrote "The neurophysiological basis of nociception or pain in fish is demonstrably similar to that in mammals." [6]
Why ? This quote by Sneddon is scientifically incorrect and used out of context – there are fundamental neurophysiological differences in nociceptors between fish and higher vertebrates (e.g. % of C type fibres vary by over an order of magnitude which is a critical fact often overlooked), only the basic pathway is the same. Nervous system is also a catchall phrase that adds little to the page, the more correct term in this context is nociceptive pathways and the relevant parts of those pathways are already discussed. So, remove as redundant and misleading.
Physical pain
Added: However, as summarised by Rose et al. (2014) and other scientists, these criteria are in themselves insufficient to determine whether animals experience pain, are frequently misinterpreted, and allegedly positive results for "pain" are not repeatable between research groups.
why ? to retain balance and demonstrate the problems with these criteria. There is no scientific concensus that these criteria have been at all validated in fish
Nerve Fibres
Added: As noted by Rose et al. (2014),humans with congenital insensitivity to pain only have around 24–28% C type nociceptive afferents in their peripheral nerves (Rosemberg et al. 1994). In contrast, cutaneous nerves in carp and rainbow trout have only 4-5% C-type fibres, indicating that teleost fish have 4-5 times lower numbers of trauma receptors than humans that cannot feel pain, while sharks and rays have fewer again.
why ? This information is critical anatomical information regarding nociceptive pathways - it is central to the topic and should not be sidelined (or censored) by trying to make out that basic anatomical differences are controversial.
Inserted from “controversy “ Based on these anatomical differences, several scientists have argued that the absence of C type fibres in cartilagenous sharks and rays indicates that signalling leading to pain perception is likely to be impossible, and the low numbers for bony fish (e.g. 5% for carp and trout) indicate this is also highly unlikely for these fish. [7] Rose concludes there is little evidence that sharks and rays possess the nociceptors required to initiate pain detection in the brain, and that, while bony fish are able to unconsciously learn to avoid injurious stimuli, they are little more likely to experience conscious pain than sharks. [7]
Rose et al. concludes that fishes have survived well in an evolutionary sense without the full range of nociception typical of humans or other mammals. [7] Brain
why ? because we would like to think that the wikipedia page on fish pain should contain the relevant scientific facts in the relevant sections based on peer reviewed scientific literature, to let people make up their own minds with reliable facts rather than trying to hide facts at the very bottom of the page.
changed it SEPs in different brain regions, including the telencephalon[42] which may mediate the co-ordination of NOCICEPTIVE information.[37]
why : changed word "pain" to "nociceptive" to correct an inaccurate citation, the article cited relates to processing of nociceptive signals
removed: It has been concluded that the brains of rainbow trout fire neurons in the same way human brains do when experiencing pain. [8] [9]
Why ?: these claims by Sneddon have been not been shown to be repeatable by other research groups, see summary in Rose et al. 2014 and papers such as Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Applied Animal Behavior Science 114, 260– 269.
Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2009) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming, and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss): a critique on Newby and Stevens (2008)— response. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 116, 97–99.
because these 2009 papers highlight inconsistencies in the scientific literature and are dated after the 2005 paper cited (Grandin and Johnson), it is not good practice to continue to promote discredited/outdated scientific information.
Effects of morphine
Added: However, when these experiments were repeated by Newby and Stevens (2008) [10] side to side rocking was not observed, suggesting that it was probably due to recovery from anaesthesia, while the extreme overdose of morphine used by Sneddon in these experiments was also noted by other researchers [11]
Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Applied Animal Behavior Science 114, 260– 269.
Newby, N.C., Robinson, J.W., Vachon, P., Beaudry, F. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) Pharmacokinetics of morphine and its metabolites in freshwater rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Journal of Veterinary Pharmacolology and Therapeutics 31, 117–127.
Why ? To put the previous paragraph in context. – there is no scientific concensus that Sneddons morphine experiments cited in the previous paragraph are at all reliable or validated.
Protective responses
Removed:
Why : these behaviours were only observed in Sneddons experiments where anaesthetics were applied to rainbow trout and later, to carp. The rocking behaviour was not observed by other researchers working with the same species when anaesthetics were not used, suggesting rocking is due to recover from anaesthetic. Not good practice to try to promote experimental artifacts as validated behavioural responses....
When acetic acid or bee venom is injected into the lips of rainbow trout....etc...
Inserted: However, when these experiments were repeated by Newby and Stevens (2008) [12] side to side rocking was not observed, suggesting that it was probably due to recovery from anaesthesia.
why ? as above
==Scientific statements==
The following was all removed:
Several scientists or scientific groups have made statements indicating they believe fish can experience pain. For example -
In 2004, Chandroo et al. wrote "Anatomical, pharmacological and behavioural data suggest that affective states of pain, fear and stress are likely to be experienced by fish in similar ways as in tetrapods". [13]
In 2009, the European Food Safety Authority published a document stating scientific opinion on the welfare of fish. The document contains many sections indicating that the scientific panel believe fish can experience pain, for example, "Fish that are simply immobilized or paralysed [before euthanasia] would experience pain and suffering..." [14]
In 2015, Brown wrote "A review of the evidence for pain perception strongly suggests that fish experience pain in a manner similar to the rest of the vertebrates." [15]
Why ? because there is no mention of the fact that just as many other scientists disagree with these statements - there is no scientific concensus on the issue and if you are going to only display one side of the argument, it makes for a really biased page.
Societal implications
Removed: Both scientists and animal protection advocates
Replaced: Animal protection advocates
Why ? In reality, it is only one science groups (Sneddons) doing this, and they have effectively become advocates as they continue to try to push for radical changes (such as use of anaesthetics in fishing when removing hooks) based only on their own research that other scientists have shown to be non- validated and non-repeatable. The vast majority of scientists I deal with around the world have no concerns regarding this issue hence this line has been altered to reflect reality.
Other societal implications of fish experiencing pain
Replaced: that may relate to the question of whether fish feel pain
Why: the page must recognize the fact that there is no scientific concensus that fish feel pain. The previous statement suggests it’s a given they do, which is simply not the case.
Controversy section
Nervous system:
Removed and sections placed nearer the relevant sections towards top of page.
Why ? Because there is no controversy about the % of C fibres etc in fishes vs humans, these are simple anatomical facts that are nevertheless important and hence should be displayed further up the page in the relevant sections.
Brain
Replaced: Rose, several other scientists, and more recently Brian Key
Why? Because there are many, many other scientists who also consider that Rose brings up many very pertinent and scientifically correct and defensible points. It is not just Rose who doubts that fish can feel pain, and when you read the reviews of Rose et al. and Key theirs are valid arguments that can simply not be ignored if a scientifically based position on this topic is to be presented. 124.170.97.78 ( talk) 04:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
References
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A neutral point of view dispute was initiated 19 October 2015 in an attempt to remedy issues related with recent editorial changes to the fish pain page which contained bias, unvalidated opinion, gave only one side of a scientific debate, deleted scientifically supported references that were added by other editors to inform readers of alternative points of view, and other infringements of Wikipedias non-negotiable policy for providing a Neutral Point of View /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. 124.170.97.78 ( talk) 05:37, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
The problems set out in the previous section "Getting the balance right in instances with no scientific concensus" are sufficient to initiate and uphold a NPOV dispute. The fact that we are discussing these issues here is exactly the reason why the page should be flagged NPOV, because as long as the facts that are listed in "Getting the balance right in instances with no scientific concensus" are not on display in the actual fish pain page, readers are not getting a neutral point of view on the subject as many sections give only one side of a scientific debate, scientifically supported references that were added by other editors to inform readers of alternative points of view have been deleted, and so on.
124.170.188.144 (
talk)
05:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I overlooked your request for specific examples. If you want a specific example of what I am talking about, by editing information on relative % of C type nociceptors in sharks vs teleosts vs mammals into the controversy section, instead of keeping them in the relevant sections where they should be (ie. the section on nociceptors), you have de-emphasised the importance of these data by trying to paint them as controversial when they are basic anatomical data of central relevance to the issue. To make matters worse, you then placed the controversy section very low down on the page, probably in a position where few will read it as most casual readers have probably moved on by then. In doing so, many readers would not even get the chance to view critical neurobiological information that they should know. I am not sure whether this is deliberate or not, but that is what happened. I would not have so much of an issue with this if the controversy section was placed much closer to the top, to warn readers of the lack of scientific consensus on these issues. Instead, you have buried these data right at the bottom of the page, and by also deleting my edits that tried to put them in context, therein lies a good example of the lack of balance I am talking about that put this page into a NPOV dispute. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 21:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Template:POV This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true: 1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved. 2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given. 3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Now, I know none of these conditions have yet been met, and since it looks like this will take some time, I will reinstate the NPOV alert - there is no consensus at this stage, which is the reason to keep it there, not take it down. I will then take the relevant sections I would like to see to balance the article one by one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Pelagic ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 11:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Update Since the opening of these NPOV discussions, the following relevant edits have been made to the article -
DrChrissy (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
DrChrissy (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, the opening statements in the page are fine for the first few paragraphs, then this one pops up with the following content that is "all one way"
"Fish fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These fulfilled criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements."
Thats fine, but its not the whole story. To balance this one way traffic, and better reflect the current scientific non-concensus surrounding this issue, I consider the following facts should also be included here.
"However, on the other hand science also shows there are also several neurobiological features in fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception, while modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain (Key 2015)."
The latter statement is also backed up by Newby and Stevens (2008) [4] who when criticised by Sneddon (for getting different results to her, mind you) noted that Sneddon in her trout experiments used anaethetics prior to treatments, which put her views contrary to those of essentially all researchers who study pain in animals. They also pointed out she also used an extreme overdose of morphine that would have been lethal to mammals - noting that this overdose surprisingly did not kill the trout but probably had unknown behavioural effects - all in all showing much doubt that the results of her study were at all reliable and repeatable. Thus lack of knowledge about pharacokinetics of morphine in fish lead Newby and Stevens to then investigate the effects of morphine on rainbow trout in another paper [5].
In other words, the way Newby and Stevens approached the issue upheld higher scientific standards to the work done by Sneddon, and surprise surprise, they came to different conclusions. The fact, (pointed out by Epipelagic) that Sneddons paper gets more citations than Newby and Stevens is not due to the formers paper being of higher scientific quality, its probably the opposite - its simply more controversial, while the fact that papers showing negative results are being ignored by the public is simply what happens when the media is after headlines - they don't let the facts get in the way of a good story and who wants to publish negative results ?. Anyway, lets see if you agree to my first suggested edit. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 02:10, 24 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Pelagic ( talk • contribs) 02:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
That is interesting, because Newby and Stevens, if you correspond with them, they will tell you they certainly do not think their study provided any confirmation of a "pain" response. You are jumping to a conclusion that the authors did not make. The issues with the % of acetic acid used in the various experiments were discussed in Rose et al (2014) [6] where they point out the most significant difference between the two studies (Sneddons vs Newby and Stevens 2008) was the use of anesthesia for injections by Sneddon (which masked some transient non-specific behavioural changes (loss of equilibrium)in the fish that were observed by Newby and Stevens), while the anaesthetic also confounded Sneddons results (i.e. rocking behaviors due to recovery from the anaesthetic were interpreted by Sneddon as being evidence of "pain"). Further, Rose et al. (2014) point out in a reply to the Newby and Stevens paper, Sneddon (2009) said that her 2003 study employed 0.1% acid injections and that the 2% injections used by Newby and Stevens would have destroyed nociceptive afferents, but her counterargument was contradicted by the fact that in the study by Sneddon et al. (2003b) [7] 2% acetic acid was used because she said it had more sustained behavioral effects on rainbow trout than the 0.1% concentration, and Reilly et al. (2008a) [8] used 5 and 10% acetic acid injections with carp and 5% injections with zebrafish Danio rerio (Cyprinidae). So you can now see that Sneddon contradicts herself - first she says 2% acetic acid kills the nociceptors, then she and her students use 2%, 5% and 10% in other experiments - so if this makes Newby and Stevens results invalid, does this make her other experiments invalid too ? The barren tank argument is simply a crock as well, why would that influence anything when fish have been held in bare experimental aquaria for controlled experiments since year dot. This is why the red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work, the contradictions, inconsistencies, inability of others to get the same results when they repeat the experiments, and so on. So no, you cannot use those arguments here, as they have already been exposed as invalid in the peer reviewed literature. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 12:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
References
I worded a detailed reply to this last night, and placed it up here, but it is not here today so I must assume it has been deleted by someone else. I was not sure whether that is possible or not, but I guess it is ? In any case I do not have to write a paper on the relative merits of Newby and Stevens vs Sneddon, as this has already been done by others more qualified than me , namely Rose et al. 2014 [1]. I also pointed out that the issue of under reporting of negative results in this field was discussed by Browman and Skiftesvik (2011) [2] It is a sad fact that sometimes the most controversial papers get cited the most, and that sometimes the high citation rates are because of the controversy and are not related to the veracity of the science, especially when papers that present good science but negative results are by comparison "boring", and thus not cited as often. I also think older papers tend to have more citations simply over the course of time. So that has to be factored into the equation as well. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 22:05, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Fish fulfill several criteria proposed by some scientists as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements. However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial.
Pain in fish has societal implications including their suffering when exposed to pollutants, in commercial and sporting fisheries, aquaculture, in ornamental fish and for fish used in scientific research. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:03, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
My version improves the article as it economises the paragraphs, removes repetition and a misleading statement about scientists, and highlights both the controversy and why there is controversy in the appropriate paragraph. I don't see where the opening section mentions neurobiological material in the context of the controversy and nowhere does the current version mention the absence of scientific concensus on the topic. I have already pointed out that the controversy section, if it remains, is too far down the page as many readers will not get that far down. Commercial and sport fisheries are mentioned then angling is singled out a second time . Why the repetition ? I also have major concerns about the sentence including scientists in the bit about fears about angling. Sneddons data both for trout and Atlantic cod are equivocal about this point, - the control manipulations in her experiments are needles filled with saline - what is the difference between that and a hook ? Hooking is not injecting fish with acid or bee venom, its more like the control and the control fish in all her experiments are supposedly behaving normally even after being stuck with a needle and injected with saline. When Sneddon teamed with the Norwegians and stuck fish hooks into Atlantic cod [3], all they got was transient head shaking and "an almost complete absence of observable responses to punctate mechanical injury of the lip". Hardly convincing evidence that would have all scientists becoming concerned about angling. The way this section is currently written it gives the reader the view that scientists are with the animal protection advocates calling for bans on angling or use of lidocaine when removing hooks [4], which is simply false as the evidence does not support this being a problem. My version avoids all of these pitfalls, does not contain false or misleading statements and is altogether a more accurate and balanced way to end the introduction. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 04:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Professor Pelagic, is this the issue you mainly find troubling? It is highly anthropomorphic, working backwards from the human experience of pain, and you warned yourself earlier that anthropomorphic approaches could be inappropriate. I don't see the issues discussed by Rose et al necessarily preclude fish from feeling pain, though, contrary perhaps to DrChrissy, I do think further research and clarification is needed and the matter has yet to be definitively settled. The section in the guideline issued by The American Fisheries Society, presumably written by Rose himself, is: "Overall, the weight of evidence in the fish species studied indicates that the experience of pain in mammals is not experienced in fish". But even if that is the case, it still has to be established whether or not fish have an experience of pain that differs from the experience of pain mammals have. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 02:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
There is a subthread on the definition of pain well above which is getting somewhat lost. I think this is a pivot issue. Accordingly I have restarted the discussion here under its own header, and transferred the first two comments below as reiteration of what has been said so far:
They have also tried to centre the article around the IASP definition of pain. That is hardly a relevant or useful definition in the context of investigating pain in fish. For example, one of the three key points of the IASP definition is that "pain is always subjective". The IASP is an organisation dedicated to the medical relief of human pain. It is not an organisation dedicated to advancing knowledge about pain in animals, and I doubt it has anything useful to say about pain in fish... -- Epipelagic ( talk) 09:55, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
This starts to get to the nub of part of the scientific debate. The reason why the ISAP definition is relevant because pain is a word that describes a human emotion. That also means that the further away you get from humans, the less appropriate it is to use the word as you risk it becoming more and more loaded with anthropomorphic bias (human emotional baggage, if you will). Your example of vision in insects is not quite equivalent, as vision is a sensory function, not an emotion – it’s the equivalent of nociception, not the pain. While insects can on doubtedly see, who knows exactly what a dragonfly perceives – perhaps vision is not the right word - image processing and perception might be more correct. Sneddon, Elwood and co. have recently tried to grapple with this issue, (in response to the recent review papers outlining the scientific issues with their interpretations of their fish and crustacean “pain” findings in their previous pain papers), by publishing a paper entitled “Defining and assessing animal pain” in the journal Animal Behaviour [10]. In the paper they declare “ Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy”, and “although it cannot be proven that animals experience pain, it also cannot be proven that they do not”. This is good stuff but then they present criteria for fulfillment of “animal pain”, including such things as motivational tradeoffs that in many cases essentially lower the bar for the burden of proof of pain and extend the term for use in groups such as insects. I am not sure that this idea will fly (pardon the pun) in the scientific community, as the word “pain” is about emotion and the further away from humans you get, the less relevant or accurate the word becomes to the point that, in some taxa it surely must become redundant. Its certainly hard to see how insects might get emotional. Perhaps researchers in this field of study in lower animals and invertebrates need to develop new words to accommodate what they are seeing so as to avoid the problems with anthropomorphic use of the word pain (and all of the human emotional baggage that comes with it) within the wider community. Also notable is that Sneddon refers to the ISAP definition of pain in this paper too, and they state that it should be able to be applied to animals too. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:39, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Now that everyone is aware of Sneddon et als 2014 paper, Sneddon LU, Elwood RW, Adamo SA, Leach MC (2014). Defining and assessing animal pain. Animal behaviour 97: 201-212, they might want to revise this whole section here and in the other linked pages (crustacean pain, invertebrate pain) to take at least some of its contents into account ???? It is also a far superior assessment of the situation than the tired and discredited argument by analogy. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:47, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
References
"When you don't like Sneddons work, you find her papers fail to uphold "higher scientific standards" and "red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work". When you do like Sneddons work, you find it is "far superior"" I simply treat each paper on its merits. There are good and questionable aspects of Sneddon et als. 2014 paper, but it is certainly a better set of criteria than argument by analogy. Can you please provide any proof whatsoever to your thesis that pain is not an emotion generated by the brain ? I would also like to insist that the other Sneddon quote is included too "Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy". This is because it is a key quote as, for the first time, she has backed down, shifted the goal posts a little and makes a differentiation between "different types of pain". Professor Pelagic ( talk) 05:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
"A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) [3] emphasized this as, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.’ However, if you can find any references that support a view that the IASP definition should NOT be used for animals such as fish, please provide it to balance the article. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 20:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I have been trying to work through the many problems with this page one section at a time, now onto "Research Findings". The start of the section on Nervous System contains a quote from Sneddons 2015 paper which is not a neutral representation of the science on the topic. To regain a neutral position on this section on Nervous System, either the quote from Sneddon 2015 should be removed, or it should be followed by "However, Rose et al. (2014) pointed out the existence of fundamental neurophysiological differences between fish and mammals when they stated "C fiber nociceptors, the most prevalent type in mammals and responsible for excruciating pain in humans, are rare in teleosts and absent in elasmobranchs studied to date." Professor Pelagic ( talk) 22:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Rather ironically, your last comment is exactly the way I think of Rose and those associated with his point of view - talk and no research. I have no problem at all with the article pointing out that there are differences in the neurobiology between mammals and fish, and also between different clades of fish. However, it is the misleading implication that this means fish are unable to experience pain that I disagree with. Insects do not have a mammalian eye. Does this mean they can not see? DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Just as an aside, PP, what name would you give to the sensation a fish experiences when a sharp object pierces their lip?DrChrissy (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Brian Key authored a controversial paper, Key, Brian (2016) Why fish do not feel pain Animal Sentience 2016.3 which caused a lot of different commentaries [13], anyone experienced in this field? This recent debate should be included.
Calum Brown comments "More than 30 commenters responded to the article and this clearly shows that this topic is still controversial. Of these, three (Rose; Hart; Diggles) support Key’s position. The vast majority of commentaries, however, do not, and argue that fish most likely feel pain. Most agree that Key’s argument is flawed at best and his evidence of how pain works in humans is selective, simplistic, misleading and outdated (Damasio & Damasio; Merker; Panksepp; Shriver)." Brown, Culum (2016) Fish pain: An inconvenient truth Animal Sentience 2016.058. HealthyGirl ( talk) 01:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
A brief summary from Marc Bekoff [14] As for Animal Sentience, it appears to be a new journal. Information about it here [15] HealthyGirl ( talk) 02:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
"Although there are numerous definitions of pain, almost all involve two key components. [...] ... The second component is the experience of "pain" itself, or suffering – the internal, emotional interpretation of the nociceptive experience. Again in humans, this is when the withdrawn finger begins to hurt, moments after the withdrawal. Pain is therefore a private, emotional experience. Pain cannot be directly measured in other animals, including other humans; responses to putatively painful stimuli can be measured, but not the experience itself."
With no references or quote given wheresoever, the above part sounds like a personal opinion rather than a wikipedia content. 123.231.122.139 ( talk) 21:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Is the first sentence in the section named "Criteria for pain perception" really related to it? As the way the sentence starts it sounds like there was another sentence prior to it which is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.122.139 ( talk) 00:57, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
I think a mention that most of these behavior's persist even with ablation of the telencephalon and related structures, and thus suggest a lack of probative value in indication of experiencing pain.
Fish are known to swim away from noxious electric shock and this behavioural response has been used to indicate that these animals feel pain. However, this interpretation is simplistic and can be dismissed given the extensive evidence that fish continue to exhibit escape behaviour following ablation of the entire telencephalon (Hainsworth et al. 1967; Davis et al. 1976). Forebrainless fish display no clear evidence of deficits in normal behaviours. For example, forebrainless fish continue to flee from capture by a small fish net with similar locomotor agility as their unoperated counterparts (Kaplan and Aronson 1967). The ability to escape or respond to an electric shock is unaffected by removal of either the forebrain or telencephalon in goldfish (Hainsworth et al. 1967; Savage 1969; Portavella et al. 2004a, b) or telencephalon in Tilapia mossambica (Overmier and Gross 1974).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356734/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.139.150 ( talk) 17:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
This section is to stop various references floating at the bottom of the page.
References
DrChrissy (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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The table in the thread #analogy table above uses 6 criteria for pain reception taken from a 2012 book by Varner. The 2014 paper by Sneddon et al [1] uses what is at base the same table, but extended to 17 criteria. I would like to see the current analogy table in the Wikipedia article extended, perhaps in the following manner, with separate columns for jawless, lobe-finned, cartilaginous and bony fishes.
Criteria for pain reception in fish | |||||
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Criteria | |||||
Jawless fish | Cartilaginous fish | Bony fish | Lobe-finned fish | ||
neuro- anatomy |
Has nociceptors | ![]() |
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Pathways to central nervous system | ![]() |
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Central processing in brain | ![]() |
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Receptors for analgesic drugs | ![]() |
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behaviour | Physiological responses | ![]() |
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Movement away from noxious stimuli | ![]() |
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Behavioural changes from norm | ![]() |
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Protective behaviour | ![]() |
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Responses reduced by analgesic drugs | ![]() |
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Self administration of analgesia | ![]() |
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Responses with high priority over other stimuli | ![]() |
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Pay cost to access analgesia | ![]() |
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Altered behavioural choices/preferences | ![]() |
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Relief learning | ? | ||||
Rubbing, limping or guarding | ![]() |
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Paying a cost to avoid stimulus | ![]() |
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Tradeoffs with other requirements | ![]() |
I would also like to see some space made for a discussion on the evolution of pain. Jawless fish are of particular interest in that context, since they were the earliest of the vertebrates. Likewise lobe-finned fish are ancestral to the tetrapods and humans. It may be that there is not a lot of material specific to lobe-finned and jawless fish, but we can have a framework here which will hopefully become more complete over the next few years. Researchers recently have been identifying more and more behaviours that might be regarded as pain behaviours, and this accumulation seems to me building to a form of consilience. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 09:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Since fish include half of all vertebrate species, I agree with a table comparing say the results for bony fish with the main tetrapod groups, but I think it is going too far to start comparing invertebrates as well. At that point we are starting to compare everything. That would more properly done in the general article, Pain in animals. The article Pain in invertebrates could also discuss the comparison with vertebrates, because the issue of pain in vertebrates is less controversial than invertebrates. This is not withholding "critical information from the reader", it is merely positioning it in more appropriate places. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 03:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Is the lead image appropriate? Sailfish are not mentioned at all in the article and I can not see that the fish in the image has even been hooked. I'm not entirely sure what I would like to see replace it, but I thought I would raise the point.DrChrissy (talk) 17:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Caption Given that the caption of the lead image may be the very first content that is read, I feel it should reflect why there is controversy - I suggest it reads - "...is debated by some scientists due to fish lacking a neocortex in the brain."
I have tried to remedy some of the biases and inconsistencies that have snuck into this page in recent revisions. reasons for the edits are explained below.
2nd paragraph Included: However, on the other hand science also shows there are also several neurobiological features in fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception, while modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain (Key 2014).
Why ? To balance the content of the earlier paragraph in light of current scientific knowledge of the topic
3rd paragraph
Deleted: Both scientists and animal protection advocates have raised concerns about the possible suffering (pain and fear) of fish caused by angling.
Why ? Due to redundancies with previous paragraph (angling/sport fisheries mentioned twice) and the fact that Lynn Sneddons science group is the only one raising concerns about the need to use anaethetics while removing fish hooks etc. - by such statements they have proven they are also advocates - the vast majority of fish and fisheries scientists around the world have not raised such concerns.
Reptiles and amphibians:
Inserted: However, as pointed out by Key (2014), modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain.
why ? because it is improper to provide a list of scientifically unvalidated criteria and try to pass it off as having scientific concensus when the problem is being discussed in the scientific literature.
Argument by analogy
Inserted: However, argument by analogy is recognized as a very anthropomorphic way of assessing animal behaviours, and thus is incapable of providing sufficient evidence in support of human-like attributes in animals Lehman (1997). Anthropomorphism and scientific evidence for animal mental states. In : Mitchell et al (eds). Anthropomorphisms, Anecdotes and Animals State University of New York Press, pp 104-116
why ? because laypeople/readers need to know this when you try to bring arguments by analogy into the debate.
The experience of pain:
To address this problem when assessing the capacity of other species to experience pain, argument-by-analogy is SOMETIMES used. This is based on the ANTHROPOMORPHIC principle that if an animal responds to a stimulus in a similar way to ourselves, it is likely to have had an analogous experience.
why ? As above, laypeople/readers need to know this when you try to bring arguments by analogy into the debate.
Removed: To address this problem when assessing the capacity of other species to experience pain, argument-by-analogy is used. This is based on the principle that if an animal responds to a stimulus in a similar way to ourselves, it is likely to have had an analogous experience.
why ? again, see above, argument by analogy is a very poor and anthropomorphic method which lacks scientific validity.
Added: A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) emphasized, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.’
Wall, P.D. (1999) Pain: neurophysiological mechanisms. In: Encyclopedia of Neuroscience (eds G. Adelman and B. Smith). Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 1565–1567.
why ? People need to know what pain is , and what it is not, and the current page does not provide this
Physical pain
Added: However, the validity of these criteria for proving pain perception has been questioned by several scientists (Rose et al 2012, Key 2015)
Why: to retain balance and demonstrate the problems with these criteria. There is no scientific concensus that these criteria have been at all validated in fish
Research findings
Removed: ===Nervous system=== In 2015, Lynne Sneddon, Director of Veterinary Science at the University of Liverpool, wrote "The neurophysiological basis of nociception or pain in fish is demonstrably similar to that in mammals." [6]
Why ? This quote by Sneddon is scientifically incorrect and used out of context – there are fundamental neurophysiological differences in nociceptors between fish and higher vertebrates (e.g. % of C type fibres vary by over an order of magnitude which is a critical fact often overlooked), only the basic pathway is the same. Nervous system is also a catchall phrase that adds little to the page, the more correct term in this context is nociceptive pathways and the relevant parts of those pathways are already discussed. So, remove as redundant and misleading.
Physical pain
Added: However, as summarised by Rose et al. (2014) and other scientists, these criteria are in themselves insufficient to determine whether animals experience pain, are frequently misinterpreted, and allegedly positive results for "pain" are not repeatable between research groups.
why ? to retain balance and demonstrate the problems with these criteria. There is no scientific concensus that these criteria have been at all validated in fish
Nerve Fibres
Added: As noted by Rose et al. (2014),humans with congenital insensitivity to pain only have around 24–28% C type nociceptive afferents in their peripheral nerves (Rosemberg et al. 1994). In contrast, cutaneous nerves in carp and rainbow trout have only 4-5% C-type fibres, indicating that teleost fish have 4-5 times lower numbers of trauma receptors than humans that cannot feel pain, while sharks and rays have fewer again.
why ? This information is critical anatomical information regarding nociceptive pathways - it is central to the topic and should not be sidelined (or censored) by trying to make out that basic anatomical differences are controversial.
Inserted from “controversy “ Based on these anatomical differences, several scientists have argued that the absence of C type fibres in cartilagenous sharks and rays indicates that signalling leading to pain perception is likely to be impossible, and the low numbers for bony fish (e.g. 5% for carp and trout) indicate this is also highly unlikely for these fish. [7] Rose concludes there is little evidence that sharks and rays possess the nociceptors required to initiate pain detection in the brain, and that, while bony fish are able to unconsciously learn to avoid injurious stimuli, they are little more likely to experience conscious pain than sharks. [7]
Rose et al. concludes that fishes have survived well in an evolutionary sense without the full range of nociception typical of humans or other mammals. [7] Brain
why ? because we would like to think that the wikipedia page on fish pain should contain the relevant scientific facts in the relevant sections based on peer reviewed scientific literature, to let people make up their own minds with reliable facts rather than trying to hide facts at the very bottom of the page.
changed it SEPs in different brain regions, including the telencephalon[42] which may mediate the co-ordination of NOCICEPTIVE information.[37]
why : changed word "pain" to "nociceptive" to correct an inaccurate citation, the article cited relates to processing of nociceptive signals
removed: It has been concluded that the brains of rainbow trout fire neurons in the same way human brains do when experiencing pain. [8] [9]
Why ?: these claims by Sneddon have been not been shown to be repeatable by other research groups, see summary in Rose et al. 2014 and papers such as Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Applied Animal Behavior Science 114, 260– 269.
Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2009) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming, and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss): a critique on Newby and Stevens (2008)— response. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 116, 97–99.
because these 2009 papers highlight inconsistencies in the scientific literature and are dated after the 2005 paper cited (Grandin and Johnson), it is not good practice to continue to promote discredited/outdated scientific information.
Effects of morphine
Added: However, when these experiments were repeated by Newby and Stevens (2008) [10] side to side rocking was not observed, suggesting that it was probably due to recovery from anaesthesia, while the extreme overdose of morphine used by Sneddon in these experiments was also noted by other researchers [11]
Newby, N.C. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) The effects of the acetic acid “pain” test on feeding, swimming and respiratory responses of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Applied Animal Behavior Science 114, 260– 269.
Newby, N.C., Robinson, J.W., Vachon, P., Beaudry, F. and Stevens, E.D. (2008) Pharmacokinetics of morphine and its metabolites in freshwater rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss). Journal of Veterinary Pharmacolology and Therapeutics 31, 117–127.
Why ? To put the previous paragraph in context. – there is no scientific concensus that Sneddons morphine experiments cited in the previous paragraph are at all reliable or validated.
Protective responses
Removed:
Why : these behaviours were only observed in Sneddons experiments where anaesthetics were applied to rainbow trout and later, to carp. The rocking behaviour was not observed by other researchers working with the same species when anaesthetics were not used, suggesting rocking is due to recover from anaesthetic. Not good practice to try to promote experimental artifacts as validated behavioural responses....
When acetic acid or bee venom is injected into the lips of rainbow trout....etc...
Inserted: However, when these experiments were repeated by Newby and Stevens (2008) [12] side to side rocking was not observed, suggesting that it was probably due to recovery from anaesthesia.
why ? as above
==Scientific statements==
The following was all removed:
Several scientists or scientific groups have made statements indicating they believe fish can experience pain. For example -
In 2004, Chandroo et al. wrote "Anatomical, pharmacological and behavioural data suggest that affective states of pain, fear and stress are likely to be experienced by fish in similar ways as in tetrapods". [13]
In 2009, the European Food Safety Authority published a document stating scientific opinion on the welfare of fish. The document contains many sections indicating that the scientific panel believe fish can experience pain, for example, "Fish that are simply immobilized or paralysed [before euthanasia] would experience pain and suffering..." [14]
In 2015, Brown wrote "A review of the evidence for pain perception strongly suggests that fish experience pain in a manner similar to the rest of the vertebrates." [15]
Why ? because there is no mention of the fact that just as many other scientists disagree with these statements - there is no scientific concensus on the issue and if you are going to only display one side of the argument, it makes for a really biased page.
Societal implications
Removed: Both scientists and animal protection advocates
Replaced: Animal protection advocates
Why ? In reality, it is only one science groups (Sneddons) doing this, and they have effectively become advocates as they continue to try to push for radical changes (such as use of anaesthetics in fishing when removing hooks) based only on their own research that other scientists have shown to be non- validated and non-repeatable. The vast majority of scientists I deal with around the world have no concerns regarding this issue hence this line has been altered to reflect reality.
Other societal implications of fish experiencing pain
Replaced: that may relate to the question of whether fish feel pain
Why: the page must recognize the fact that there is no scientific concensus that fish feel pain. The previous statement suggests it’s a given they do, which is simply not the case.
Controversy section
Nervous system:
Removed and sections placed nearer the relevant sections towards top of page.
Why ? Because there is no controversy about the % of C fibres etc in fishes vs humans, these are simple anatomical facts that are nevertheless important and hence should be displayed further up the page in the relevant sections.
Brain
Replaced: Rose, several other scientists, and more recently Brian Key
Why? Because there are many, many other scientists who also consider that Rose brings up many very pertinent and scientifically correct and defensible points. It is not just Rose who doubts that fish can feel pain, and when you read the reviews of Rose et al. and Key theirs are valid arguments that can simply not be ignored if a scientifically based position on this topic is to be presented. 124.170.97.78 ( talk) 04:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
References
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A neutral point of view dispute was initiated 19 October 2015 in an attempt to remedy issues related with recent editorial changes to the fish pain page which contained bias, unvalidated opinion, gave only one side of a scientific debate, deleted scientifically supported references that were added by other editors to inform readers of alternative points of view, and other infringements of Wikipedias non-negotiable policy for providing a Neutral Point of View /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. 124.170.97.78 ( talk) 05:37, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
The problems set out in the previous section "Getting the balance right in instances with no scientific concensus" are sufficient to initiate and uphold a NPOV dispute. The fact that we are discussing these issues here is exactly the reason why the page should be flagged NPOV, because as long as the facts that are listed in "Getting the balance right in instances with no scientific concensus" are not on display in the actual fish pain page, readers are not getting a neutral point of view on the subject as many sections give only one side of a scientific debate, scientifically supported references that were added by other editors to inform readers of alternative points of view have been deleted, and so on.
124.170.188.144 (
talk)
05:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I overlooked your request for specific examples. If you want a specific example of what I am talking about, by editing information on relative % of C type nociceptors in sharks vs teleosts vs mammals into the controversy section, instead of keeping them in the relevant sections where they should be (ie. the section on nociceptors), you have de-emphasised the importance of these data by trying to paint them as controversial when they are basic anatomical data of central relevance to the issue. To make matters worse, you then placed the controversy section very low down on the page, probably in a position where few will read it as most casual readers have probably moved on by then. In doing so, many readers would not even get the chance to view critical neurobiological information that they should know. I am not sure whether this is deliberate or not, but that is what happened. I would not have so much of an issue with this if the controversy section was placed much closer to the top, to warn readers of the lack of scientific consensus on these issues. Instead, you have buried these data right at the bottom of the page, and by also deleting my edits that tried to put them in context, therein lies a good example of the lack of balance I am talking about that put this page into a NPOV dispute. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 21:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Template:POV This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true: 1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved. 2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given. 3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.
Now, I know none of these conditions have yet been met, and since it looks like this will take some time, I will reinstate the NPOV alert - there is no consensus at this stage, which is the reason to keep it there, not take it down. I will then take the relevant sections I would like to see to balance the article one by one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Pelagic ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 11:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Update Since the opening of these NPOV discussions, the following relevant edits have been made to the article -
DrChrissy (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
DrChrissy (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, the opening statements in the page are fine for the first few paragraphs, then this one pops up with the following content that is "all one way"
"Fish fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These fulfilled criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements."
Thats fine, but its not the whole story. To balance this one way traffic, and better reflect the current scientific non-concensus surrounding this issue, I consider the following facts should also be included here.
"However, on the other hand science also shows there are also several neurobiological features in fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception, while modification of behaviour with drugs does not necessarily indicate pain (Key 2015)."
The latter statement is also backed up by Newby and Stevens (2008) [4] who when criticised by Sneddon (for getting different results to her, mind you) noted that Sneddon in her trout experiments used anaethetics prior to treatments, which put her views contrary to those of essentially all researchers who study pain in animals. They also pointed out she also used an extreme overdose of morphine that would have been lethal to mammals - noting that this overdose surprisingly did not kill the trout but probably had unknown behavioural effects - all in all showing much doubt that the results of her study were at all reliable and repeatable. Thus lack of knowledge about pharacokinetics of morphine in fish lead Newby and Stevens to then investigate the effects of morphine on rainbow trout in another paper [5].
In other words, the way Newby and Stevens approached the issue upheld higher scientific standards to the work done by Sneddon, and surprise surprise, they came to different conclusions. The fact, (pointed out by Epipelagic) that Sneddons paper gets more citations than Newby and Stevens is not due to the formers paper being of higher scientific quality, its probably the opposite - its simply more controversial, while the fact that papers showing negative results are being ignored by the public is simply what happens when the media is after headlines - they don't let the facts get in the way of a good story and who wants to publish negative results ?. Anyway, lets see if you agree to my first suggested edit. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 02:10, 24 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Pelagic ( talk • contribs) 02:07, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
That is interesting, because Newby and Stevens, if you correspond with them, they will tell you they certainly do not think their study provided any confirmation of a "pain" response. You are jumping to a conclusion that the authors did not make. The issues with the % of acetic acid used in the various experiments were discussed in Rose et al (2014) [6] where they point out the most significant difference between the two studies (Sneddons vs Newby and Stevens 2008) was the use of anesthesia for injections by Sneddon (which masked some transient non-specific behavioural changes (loss of equilibrium)in the fish that were observed by Newby and Stevens), while the anaesthetic also confounded Sneddons results (i.e. rocking behaviors due to recovery from the anaesthetic were interpreted by Sneddon as being evidence of "pain"). Further, Rose et al. (2014) point out in a reply to the Newby and Stevens paper, Sneddon (2009) said that her 2003 study employed 0.1% acid injections and that the 2% injections used by Newby and Stevens would have destroyed nociceptive afferents, but her counterargument was contradicted by the fact that in the study by Sneddon et al. (2003b) [7] 2% acetic acid was used because she said it had more sustained behavioral effects on rainbow trout than the 0.1% concentration, and Reilly et al. (2008a) [8] used 5 and 10% acetic acid injections with carp and 5% injections with zebrafish Danio rerio (Cyprinidae). So you can now see that Sneddon contradicts herself - first she says 2% acetic acid kills the nociceptors, then she and her students use 2%, 5% and 10% in other experiments - so if this makes Newby and Stevens results invalid, does this make her other experiments invalid too ? The barren tank argument is simply a crock as well, why would that influence anything when fish have been held in bare experimental aquaria for controlled experiments since year dot. This is why the red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work, the contradictions, inconsistencies, inability of others to get the same results when they repeat the experiments, and so on. So no, you cannot use those arguments here, as they have already been exposed as invalid in the peer reviewed literature. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 12:06, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
References
I worded a detailed reply to this last night, and placed it up here, but it is not here today so I must assume it has been deleted by someone else. I was not sure whether that is possible or not, but I guess it is ? In any case I do not have to write a paper on the relative merits of Newby and Stevens vs Sneddon, as this has already been done by others more qualified than me , namely Rose et al. 2014 [1]. I also pointed out that the issue of under reporting of negative results in this field was discussed by Browman and Skiftesvik (2011) [2] It is a sad fact that sometimes the most controversial papers get cited the most, and that sometimes the high citation rates are because of the controversy and are not related to the veracity of the science, especially when papers that present good science but negative results are by comparison "boring", and thus not cited as often. I also think older papers tend to have more citations simply over the course of time. So that has to be factored into the equation as well. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 22:05, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Fish fulfill several criteria proposed by some scientists as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors, opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics, physiological changes to noxious stimuli, displaying protective motor reactions, exhibiting avoidance learning and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements. However, other scientists point out there are several neurobiological features in teleost fish and elasmobranchs that suggest they are unlikely to be capable of pain perception. Because of this, there is currently no scientific consensus on the topic, which remains controversial.
Pain in fish has societal implications including their suffering when exposed to pollutants, in commercial and sporting fisheries, aquaculture, in ornamental fish and for fish used in scientific research. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:03, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
My version improves the article as it economises the paragraphs, removes repetition and a misleading statement about scientists, and highlights both the controversy and why there is controversy in the appropriate paragraph. I don't see where the opening section mentions neurobiological material in the context of the controversy and nowhere does the current version mention the absence of scientific concensus on the topic. I have already pointed out that the controversy section, if it remains, is too far down the page as many readers will not get that far down. Commercial and sport fisheries are mentioned then angling is singled out a second time . Why the repetition ? I also have major concerns about the sentence including scientists in the bit about fears about angling. Sneddons data both for trout and Atlantic cod are equivocal about this point, - the control manipulations in her experiments are needles filled with saline - what is the difference between that and a hook ? Hooking is not injecting fish with acid or bee venom, its more like the control and the control fish in all her experiments are supposedly behaving normally even after being stuck with a needle and injected with saline. When Sneddon teamed with the Norwegians and stuck fish hooks into Atlantic cod [3], all they got was transient head shaking and "an almost complete absence of observable responses to punctate mechanical injury of the lip". Hardly convincing evidence that would have all scientists becoming concerned about angling. The way this section is currently written it gives the reader the view that scientists are with the animal protection advocates calling for bans on angling or use of lidocaine when removing hooks [4], which is simply false as the evidence does not support this being a problem. My version avoids all of these pitfalls, does not contain false or misleading statements and is altogether a more accurate and balanced way to end the introduction. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 04:51, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Professor Pelagic, is this the issue you mainly find troubling? It is highly anthropomorphic, working backwards from the human experience of pain, and you warned yourself earlier that anthropomorphic approaches could be inappropriate. I don't see the issues discussed by Rose et al necessarily preclude fish from feeling pain, though, contrary perhaps to DrChrissy, I do think further research and clarification is needed and the matter has yet to be definitively settled. The section in the guideline issued by The American Fisheries Society, presumably written by Rose himself, is: "Overall, the weight of evidence in the fish species studied indicates that the experience of pain in mammals is not experienced in fish". But even if that is the case, it still has to be established whether or not fish have an experience of pain that differs from the experience of pain mammals have. -- Epipelagic ( talk) 02:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
There is a subthread on the definition of pain well above which is getting somewhat lost. I think this is a pivot issue. Accordingly I have restarted the discussion here under its own header, and transferred the first two comments below as reiteration of what has been said so far:
They have also tried to centre the article around the IASP definition of pain. That is hardly a relevant or useful definition in the context of investigating pain in fish. For example, one of the three key points of the IASP definition is that "pain is always subjective". The IASP is an organisation dedicated to the medical relief of human pain. It is not an organisation dedicated to advancing knowledge about pain in animals, and I doubt it has anything useful to say about pain in fish... -- Epipelagic ( talk) 09:55, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
This starts to get to the nub of part of the scientific debate. The reason why the ISAP definition is relevant because pain is a word that describes a human emotion. That also means that the further away you get from humans, the less appropriate it is to use the word as you risk it becoming more and more loaded with anthropomorphic bias (human emotional baggage, if you will). Your example of vision in insects is not quite equivalent, as vision is a sensory function, not an emotion – it’s the equivalent of nociception, not the pain. While insects can on doubtedly see, who knows exactly what a dragonfly perceives – perhaps vision is not the right word - image processing and perception might be more correct. Sneddon, Elwood and co. have recently tried to grapple with this issue, (in response to the recent review papers outlining the scientific issues with their interpretations of their fish and crustacean “pain” findings in their previous pain papers), by publishing a paper entitled “Defining and assessing animal pain” in the journal Animal Behaviour [10]. In the paper they declare “ Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy”, and “although it cannot be proven that animals experience pain, it also cannot be proven that they do not”. This is good stuff but then they present criteria for fulfillment of “animal pain”, including such things as motivational tradeoffs that in many cases essentially lower the bar for the burden of proof of pain and extend the term for use in groups such as insects. I am not sure that this idea will fly (pardon the pun) in the scientific community, as the word “pain” is about emotion and the further away from humans you get, the less relevant or accurate the word becomes to the point that, in some taxa it surely must become redundant. Its certainly hard to see how insects might get emotional. Perhaps researchers in this field of study in lower animals and invertebrates need to develop new words to accommodate what they are seeing so as to avoid the problems with anthropomorphic use of the word pain (and all of the human emotional baggage that comes with it) within the wider community. Also notable is that Sneddon refers to the ISAP definition of pain in this paper too, and they state that it should be able to be applied to animals too. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:39, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Now that everyone is aware of Sneddon et als 2014 paper, Sneddon LU, Elwood RW, Adamo SA, Leach MC (2014). Defining and assessing animal pain. Animal behaviour 97: 201-212, they might want to revise this whole section here and in the other linked pages (crustacean pain, invertebrate pain) to take at least some of its contents into account ???? It is also a far superior assessment of the situation than the tired and discredited argument by analogy. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 00:47, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
References
"When you don't like Sneddons work, you find her papers fail to uphold "higher scientific standards" and "red flags go up when scientists start to review Sneddons work". When you do like Sneddons work, you find it is "far superior"" I simply treat each paper on its merits. There are good and questionable aspects of Sneddon et als. 2014 paper, but it is certainly a better set of criteria than argument by analogy. Can you please provide any proof whatsoever to your thesis that pain is not an emotion generated by the brain ? I would also like to insist that the other Sneddon quote is included too "Clearly animal pain behaviour differs from human pain behaviour, as does the underlying neuroanatomy". This is because it is a key quote as, for the first time, she has backed down, shifted the goal posts a little and makes a differentiation between "different types of pain". Professor Pelagic ( talk) 05:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
"A valid working definition of pain is vital for efforts to explain its underlying mechanisms. To this end, the key features of the definition of pain by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) are that pain is (i) an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage; (ii) pain is always subjective; and (iii) pain is sometimes reported in the absence of tissue damage and the definition of pain should avoid tying pain to an external eliciting stimulus. Wall (1999) [3] emphasized this as, ‘…activity induced in the nociceptor and nociceptive pathways by a noxious stimulus is not pain, which is always a psychological state.’ However, if you can find any references that support a view that the IASP definition should NOT be used for animals such as fish, please provide it to balance the article. Professor Pelagic ( talk) 20:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I have been trying to work through the many problems with this page one section at a time, now onto "Research Findings". The start of the section on Nervous System contains a quote from Sneddons 2015 paper which is not a neutral representation of the science on the topic. To regain a neutral position on this section on Nervous System, either the quote from Sneddon 2015 should be removed, or it should be followed by "However, Rose et al. (2014) pointed out the existence of fundamental neurophysiological differences between fish and mammals when they stated "C fiber nociceptors, the most prevalent type in mammals and responsible for excruciating pain in humans, are rare in teleosts and absent in elasmobranchs studied to date." Professor Pelagic ( talk) 22:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Rather ironically, your last comment is exactly the way I think of Rose and those associated with his point of view - talk and no research. I have no problem at all with the article pointing out that there are differences in the neurobiology between mammals and fish, and also between different clades of fish. However, it is the misleading implication that this means fish are unable to experience pain that I disagree with. Insects do not have a mammalian eye. Does this mean they can not see? DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Just as an aside, PP, what name would you give to the sensation a fish experiences when a sharp object pierces their lip?DrChrissy (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Brian Key authored a controversial paper, Key, Brian (2016) Why fish do not feel pain Animal Sentience 2016.3 which caused a lot of different commentaries [13], anyone experienced in this field? This recent debate should be included.
Calum Brown comments "More than 30 commenters responded to the article and this clearly shows that this topic is still controversial. Of these, three (Rose; Hart; Diggles) support Key’s position. The vast majority of commentaries, however, do not, and argue that fish most likely feel pain. Most agree that Key’s argument is flawed at best and his evidence of how pain works in humans is selective, simplistic, misleading and outdated (Damasio & Damasio; Merker; Panksepp; Shriver)." Brown, Culum (2016) Fish pain: An inconvenient truth Animal Sentience 2016.058. HealthyGirl ( talk) 01:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
A brief summary from Marc Bekoff [14] As for Animal Sentience, it appears to be a new journal. Information about it here [15] HealthyGirl ( talk) 02:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
"Although there are numerous definitions of pain, almost all involve two key components. [...] ... The second component is the experience of "pain" itself, or suffering – the internal, emotional interpretation of the nociceptive experience. Again in humans, this is when the withdrawn finger begins to hurt, moments after the withdrawal. Pain is therefore a private, emotional experience. Pain cannot be directly measured in other animals, including other humans; responses to putatively painful stimuli can be measured, but not the experience itself."
With no references or quote given wheresoever, the above part sounds like a personal opinion rather than a wikipedia content. 123.231.122.139 ( talk) 21:20, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Is the first sentence in the section named "Criteria for pain perception" really related to it? As the way the sentence starts it sounds like there was another sentence prior to it which is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.122.139 ( talk) 00:57, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
I think a mention that most of these behavior's persist even with ablation of the telencephalon and related structures, and thus suggest a lack of probative value in indication of experiencing pain.
Fish are known to swim away from noxious electric shock and this behavioural response has been used to indicate that these animals feel pain. However, this interpretation is simplistic and can be dismissed given the extensive evidence that fish continue to exhibit escape behaviour following ablation of the entire telencephalon (Hainsworth et al. 1967; Davis et al. 1976). Forebrainless fish display no clear evidence of deficits in normal behaviours. For example, forebrainless fish continue to flee from capture by a small fish net with similar locomotor agility as their unoperated counterparts (Kaplan and Aronson 1967). The ability to escape or respond to an electric shock is unaffected by removal of either the forebrain or telencephalon in goldfish (Hainsworth et al. 1967; Savage 1969; Portavella et al. 2004a, b) or telencephalon in Tilapia mossambica (Overmier and Gross 1974).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356734/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.139.150 ( talk) 17:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
This section is to stop various references floating at the bottom of the page.
References
DrChrissy (talk) 14:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)