This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Padmasambhava article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are many scholarly articles which suggests that Oddiyana is recognized more likely with Uddiyana or Odra Desha - present day Odisha. Most of the Mahayana Buddhist belive it is somewhere near the Mahanadi and Baitarani delta. Padmasambhava was son of King Indrabhuti who is known to have ruled Shambhala which is Sambalpur in Odisha. I suggest that we make it balanced by saying that "Oddiyana is a place in North India which is recognized with Odisha. Few historians also point it to SWAT valley in Pakistan. As it is very difficult to settle down with one location(as per Wiki guidelines) we need to make it balanced. As there is a equal consensus of it being in Odisha as well. I suggest a move here. 216.163.246.1 ( talk) 14:39, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it's useful to compare the opening section of this article with the corresponding article in Britannica -- http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/438026/Padmasambhava To me, an educated lay person with no expertise in this topic -- i.e. a perfect example of the intended audience of Wikipedia -- Britannica's is *vastly* superior. Its opening matches pretty much everything I *have* read on Padmasambhava, and doesn't muddy things up with references to "literary character[s]" (whatever *that* means), "terma" or "tertons" (the fact that both of those are linked to their master articles doesn't, to my mind, excuse their use in the opening). The linked article at http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Padmasambhava is also superior in my opinion.
I've added a "too technical" tag, although "too obscure" would be more accurate. Could someone knowledgeable simplify the opening, and move the extraneous stuff down into the main article? Thomask0 ( talk) 18:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Older discussions are archived here. Bahnheckl ( talk) 16:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Can anyone provide the pronunciation for his name in in Devanagari and the International Phonetic Alphabet? My main question is which A s are long, and which are short? This has a big effect on how the word sounds.
Psmeers ( talk) 09:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Om Ha Hum Guru Padma Siddhi Hum should be cited as his main mantra. Gus
Actually, the above is wrong- it should be Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum, or Om Ah Hung Bensa Guru Pema Siddhi Hung in Tibetan, as it says in the article. AdamHolt
Im confused by this second buddha thing - werent there many buddhas before Shakyamuni? Another buddha then? Or, simply, consider him to be enlightened, if that info has any value at all that is? DN
References
What about if the oral transmission of the mantra is with the wrong pronunciation or if we pronounce it incorrectly? I think in this case, there is no difference in the power and ability of reciting it in these inaccurate ways. After all, the Tibetans do not pronounce certain words of mantras the way the Indians did. For example, Tibetans pronounce the Sanskrit word vajra as "bendza" and the Mongols pronounce it as "ochir." Nevertheless, we cannot say that Tibetans and Mongols reciting mantras while pronouncing "vajra" as "bendza" or "ochir" have not had any attainments or that their attainments were lesser than those of Indians pronouncing "vajra" as "vajra." The inspiring ability instilled by Buddha on the sounds of the mantra is still transmitted despite the deformation of its pronunciation. This is because there is still an unbroken transmission of the mantra. After all, the oral transmission of texts originally written in Sanskrit is considered to be unbroken even when the transmission is continued with the recitation of the texts in translation, such as in Tibetan or Chinese. The transmission line is like an individual mental continuum: each moment is neither the same nor totally different from the previous moment. Each moment arises merely dependently on the previous moment as an unbroken continuity of it, with nothing findable passing from moment to moment to establish the existence of the continuity.
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
The fact that he is the patron saint of Sikkim is only mentioned in the picture's title. Could some info on the history of this be added to the text of the article? Wiki-uk 09:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
On German wikipedia site the eight manifestations mentioned there are not completely the same. That Guru Orgyen Dorje Chang is lacking on the german site, instead there is a Guru Tsokye Dorje who is lacking on english wikipedia site (this one). Does anybody know about those different names? Are they thought to be different people?
Within this long text on Padmasambhava maybe an answer to my question is to be found. [1]
According to this text [2], going first to Lineage and second to Khordong History Tsokye Dorje is another name for Padmasambhava.
The depictions are usually Padmasambhava plus his eight manifestations (so 9 in all). Tsokye Dorje ("Lake born vajra" - a form of Padmasambhava with the vajra held at his heart) is usually the central figure surrounded by the other eight. Cfynn ( talk) 20:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't all of them be mentioned?
Some more information should be added to the article.
the same, on guru Dorje Drollo, [4],
Dorje Drolo is a wrathful manifestation of Padmasambava and a subduer of demons. Guru Padma arose in the wrathful form of Dorje Drolo in the famous Tagstang or Tiger’s Nest Cave in Bhutan in order to subdue the negative and demonic forces of these degenerate times. Ferocious in expression, amidst a mass of primordial wisdom fire, he stands upon the back of a pregnant tigress who is the wrathful form of his Wisdom Consort of enlightened activity, Tashi Kye Dren, whose ferocity is unpredictable and wild. Dressed in a robe of brocade, his body is purple in color and he wears a garland of severed heads representing the cutting of the 52 levels of dualistic mind-concepts. In his right hand he holds a vajra aloft emitting lightening bolts, and in his left a kila-purba that severs the three poisons that are the source of all suffering. The ferocious expression he wears while riding a tigress makes for a menacing figure. His body is dark brown and surrounded by a halo of flames."
References
German text [1].
Yeshe Tsongyal: Meister Padma bindet alle Götter und Dämonen Tibets durch Eid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.202.214 ( talk) 10:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
the wikitext says that the socalled eight manifestations are different aspects of his being. I don't know.
This text [5] says in section 12. Departure From The World says: "In Tibetan art he is also shown as a group of eight, representing eight major events in his life."
I have to think about this.
What does Rigpa Shedra say here [7]
Response by Xeltifon: Rigpa Shedra says the Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü [1] ("Union of All Innermost Essences" Tibetan: ཐུགས་སྒྲུབ་ཡང་སྙིང་ཀུན་འདུས་, Wylie: thugs sgrub yang snying kun 'dus) sadhana of Padmasambhava's Eight Manifestations [2] comes from a "pure vision" [3] ( Tibetan: དག་སྣང་, Wylie: dag snang) terma of the 5th Dalai Lama contained in his Sangwa Gyachen [4] ( Tibetan: གསང་བ་རྒྱ་ཅན་, Wylie: gsang ba rgya can), and that the "sadhana and empowerment texts were arranged by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo". Whether or not Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's involvement qualifies the aforementioned sadhana as one of the sixth in the Seven Authoritative Transmissions [5] ( Tibetan: བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, Wylie: bka' babs bdun) I honestly have no idea, and frankly prefer not to hazard a guess. :^) :^) Hope this helps, regardless. Cheers! Xeltifon ( talk) 10:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü (Wyl. thugs sgrub yang snying kun 'dus) 'The Union of All the Innermost Essences' - Sadhana of Guru Rinpoche and his eight manifestations from the Sangwa Gyachen cycle of pure visions of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The sadhana and empowerment texts were arranged by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo.
The Eight Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche .... are the eight principal forms assumed by Guru Rinpoche at different points in his life .... The Eight Manifestations of Padmasambhava do not depict different Padmasambhavas, but reflect his ability to appear according to different needs and demands. In fact, they are called in Tibetan Guru Tsen Gyé, the eight 'names' of the Guru; each manifestation demonstrates a different principle that unveils the innermost nature of mind. As Guru Rinpoche said: "Mind itself is Padmasambhava; there is no practice or meditation apart from that."
Pure vision or visionary revelations .... are teachings received by masters directly from deities or gurus, in experiences or in dreams. More specifically, in the Nyingma tradition, pure vision teachings are one of the three main transmissions (Wyl. babs so), as well as one of the seven authoritative transmissions (Tib. བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, Wyl. bka' babs bdun) received by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa.
Sangwa Gyachen .... 'Bearing the Seal of Secrecy' - visionary teachings of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, composed of twenty-five sections dealing with distinct visions, including the Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü.
Seven authoritative transmissions (Tib. བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, ka bab dün; Wyl. bka' babs bdun) received by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa: 1. kama (Tib. བཀའ་མ་, Wyl. bka' ma) — the continuous transmission of sutra and tantra 2. sa ter (Tib. ས་གཏེར་, Wyl. sa gter) — earth treasures 3. yang ter (Tib. ཡང་གཏེར་, Wyl. yang gter) — rediscovered treasures 4. gong ter (Tib. དགོངས་གཏེར་, Wyl. dgongs gter) — mind treasures 5. nyen gyü (Tib. སྙན་བརྒྱུད་, Wyl. snyan brgyud) — oral transmission 6. dak nang (Tib. དག་སྣང་, Wyl. dag snang) — visionary revelations or 'pure visions' 7. jé dren (Tib. རྗེས་དྲན་, Wyl. rjes dran) — revelations from memory.
why there is tibetan script but no devanagari?
201.201.1.162 ( talk) 13:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan: "The section on Padmasambhava you removed was actually up for a few years and the translator of that, Erik publisher of Rangjung, was very happy about it. Your editing history is mainly bitter and negative. Secondly you have messed with things you don't understand and since you're not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism which is the ultimate intent of Shakyamuni & completely alien to your middle class passe fad of westernized Japonisme. I would advise not meddling further in areas you don't understand." (Unsigned, but written by User:The1973onez diff
Wikipedia-articles give summaries of information available elsewhere, not copies of extended info. See WP:SIZE. Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 07:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The1973onez: I replied to your friend you involved on his talk page and pointed out your editing of Tibetan Buddhist contents you have embarked upon is in ignorance and furthermore in bias and has to be constantly monitored. User:The1973onez [8] (UTC)
Dear Afterwriting, you are a follower of Zen which dismisses Tibetan Buddhist basic tenets, tantric practices and deities and have embarked upon systematic editing and deleting of TB sections. Secondly you dragged your friend into bullying me. He deleted my logical responses on his talk page to his verbal abuse. I will resurrect this issue at the right time. Thirdly you continue to abuse verbally as you just did calling my cool and logical responses as "ridiculous behaviour" and continue your bullying language and friends of yours who do the same. Your editing of Tibetan Buddhist sections will be monitored. Fourthly unlike a TB seasoned follower or an academic, your knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism is almost non-existent. Fifthly you consistently refuse to answer these logical objections to your habitual actions on Wiki. User:The1973onez [9] (UTC)
Dear Xeltifon, you left a long irrelevant rant on my talk page. See my answer above. What you're defending is like a Catholic editing and erasing large sections on reformation while claiming to be unbiased. Plus knowing next to nothing about the subject. Finally your long irrelevant diversions are truly a cause for concern as they are highly unstable in nature so I wish you well and calmness. User:The1973onez [10] (UTC)
Dear Afterwriting, I notice you censored my response to you in your talk page, like your friend did. I will resurrect this issue. This is is unethical as I did not censor your or your friend's on my page. All the best to you. User:The1973onez
Dear Afterwriting I hope you're well. Once again you censored my logical points about issues on your talk page. Then once again you wrote on my talk page which I let stand, unlike you and your friends, despite your methods. Finally you again avoided my enumerated points about the issues and merely called me names. Why do you abuse others by deleting their issue based comments, yet do the same on their page and to top it all merely abuse them personally too? If you have no empathy for human beings you should at least reciprocate the protocols and not indulge in prejudiced and discriminatory one sided methods. I will monitor your edits and will resurrect your unfair methods at the right time and place. All the best. User:The1973onez(UTC)
Maybe we should change the "Life and Teachings" section to expose the different views on Padmasambhava's life story. See for example the article on Bodhidharma. This way we'll have the following advantages:
Bahnheckl ( talk) 09:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The next major figure, Emperor Tri Songdetsen (Khri Srong sde-btsan), was cautious of the Chinese and paranoid of Zhang-zhung, most likely because his pro-Chinese father had been assassinated by the xenophobic, conservative Zhang-zhung political faction in the imperial court. In 761, he invited the Indian Buddhist abbot Shantarakshita to Tibet. There was a smallpox epidemic. The Zhang-zhung faction in court blamed Shantarakshita and deported him from the land. On the abbot's advice, the Emperor then invited Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) from Swat (northwestern Pakistan), who drove out the demons who had caused the smallpox. The Emperor then reinvited Shantarakshita. Guru Rinpoche left in 774, without having completed the full transmission of dzogchen. Seeing that the times were not ripe, he buried some texts as buried treasure texts (gter-ma, "terma"). They were exclusively texts on dzogchen.
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
and |year=
/ |date=
mismatch (
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)
Thank you for your response Xeltifon. There must be some academic study on the scientific value of the Namthar. I suggest we find it and add some footnotes on the matter? Bahnheckl ( talk) 15:33, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
"Padmasambhava's life is more than just a historical reality. It is the culmination of altruistic actions manifesting in perfect human form." (Tarthang Tulku)
All the incidents in the life of Padmasambhava, be they actual reminiscences or pious inventions, can betraced back to the gter-ma ("hidden treasures") tradition that began with Sangs-rgyasbla-ma (ca. 1000-1080) and, in the specific case of Padmasambhava, started withNyang-ral nyi-ma 'od-zer (1124-1192), the "discoverer" of the Slob-dpon Padma'byung-gnas-kyi skyes-rabs chos-'byung nor-bu'i phreng-ba rnam-thar zangs-gling-ma (of which several versions exists), and continued through a long line of "discoverers of hidden texts" (gter-ston) of whom the more important ones are (1) Chos-kyi dbangphyug (1212-1270), the "discoverer" of the bKa'-thang sde-lnga-the discovery occurred in 1231--of which the third section from among the five sections, the bTsun- mo'i bka'i thang-yig, is the most significant one because it contains old material,though no linguistic archaisms, and (2) Urgyan (or Orgyan) gling-pa (1323 or 1329-ca.1360 or 1367), the discoverer of the U-rgyan guru Padma-'byung-gnas-kyi skyes-rabsrnam-par thar-pa rgyas-par bkod-pa in 1346. This text is better known by its shorttitle of
Padma bka' -thang of which an excellent edition was published by the Si-khronrni-rigs (Minorities) Publishing House (China) in 1987.From a historical point of view these "rediscovered" texts are of little relevance:there are too many discrepancies, if not to say, blatant contradictions in one and the same text or the texts ascribed to one and the same author, concerning what we know to be historical facts. But from a literary point of view these "rediscovered" texts are of enormous importance. Written in verse form in the language as spoken by the"discoverer" at the time of their discovery, these texts reflect the Zeitgeist that demanded that everything had to be "Indian" and, therefore, as tendencious writings, they increasingly marginalize Padmasambhava's "foreign" (Urgyan, also spelled Orgy an)and even Tibetan connection. Thus, Padmasambhava's consort, mKhar-chen-bza' Yeshes 'tsho-rgyal (also spelled mtsho-rgyal), originally one of king Khri-srong Ide'ubtsan's five wives, requested by Padmasambhava and given to him by the king "for services rendered," is completely overshadowed by the princess Mandarava, daughterof the king of Zahor (somewhere situated between Nepal and Assam). It is this lastmentioned text that makes Padmasambhava a callous murderer in Urgyan and shows him to have had an inordinate interest in young girls. Thus, of
the two generally recognized consorts of Padmasambhava, mKhar-chen-bza' Ye-shes 'tsho-rgyal was about twelve years of age when Padmasambhava firsts met her, and the princess (Iha-Icam) Mandarava was thirteen years of age when he got involved with her. In an episode,recorded in the bTsun-mo bka'i thang (Paro edition 1976, p.551; Berthold Laufer, Der Roman einer tibetichen Kdnigin, text and translation, .Leipzig 1911, pp. 82 and 190), Padmasambhava is reported to have said when the king and his Bon queen Tshespong-bza' dmar-rgyan offered him their young and beautiful daughter Khrom-pargyan, as a reward for having cured the queen of leprosy: Iha-Icam Khrom-pa rgyan-Ia dgongs-pa mdzadphyi yul bzang-Ia nang sems dag-pas [Laufer, dge-basJ snang'gro-ba'i don mdzad sems-can mthun-par byarabs-chad ma-ning bya-ba'i ngag bcad phyirgurus khab-tu bzhes-par zhal-gyis bzhes I have thought about the princess Khrom-pa rgyan; Physically she is beautiful and mentally she is (still) innocent. Acting on behalf of the living beings she will make them live in harmony.In order to put an end to the rumor that my line will die out (because) I am impotent,I, the guru, promise to take her to be my wife. As the story goes, he had two sons from her, the one was a no-good and died young,the other was precocious, but failed to establish a "lineage." It is therefore very likely that these "rediscovered" texts are compositions in themanner of historical fiction by the respective discoverers. [1]
References
Oy vey -- I'm not dead yet! Sorry -- I got knocked outta commission rather badly for a few days there and started burrowing myself into a whole completely different area when I came out of it, as I very often to do. I've just now skimmed through these one "next edit" at a time, since only now am I starting to check my emails again. Still very much a noob where diff and talk pages are concerned -- which ain't to rationalize anything stoopid i've done so much as it's just to say "eek!" There's a humongous amount of excellent material here now -- a whole nice big shiny new shipping pallet loaded up with cans o' worms, if you will -- and I'm frankly more than a little overwhelmed; I gotta catch up systematically, or else I'll be completely screwed. I wade out so far into things before I even know it -- and not on purpose, either; just seems to be what I do. Obviously I've got questions to answer and have a great deal to review here; please for whatever it's worth do know I'm not ignoring anyone -- just need to get a little project I've been kinda focused on to a *little* bit better stopping point than where it's at before I change directions, otherwise I'll wind up with sixty-four gazillion things *not* done, *and* some angry Mongol hordes on my doorstep, to boot. :^) :^)
All the best,༺།།ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ།།འཚེར།། xeltifon།།སར་ཝ་མང་ག་ལམ།།༻ { say it} { contribs} { ζ } 13:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
What is the deal with inserting the quote in the lead? VictoriaGrayson Talk 21:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
I just joined Wikipedia because of this page, which I found to be forbiddingly rich in jargon. The first graf makes no sense to someone who is not already well versed in Buddhist terminology -- and the rest of the article continues in that vein. Seems to me that the article is therefore not useful to the general reader.
Apologies for any breaches in protocol - as I say, I've just now joined, so I don't know How Things Go around here. But I can't make heads or tails of this article. Ethandeseife ( talk) 19:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
The lead currently dismisses Padmasambhava as an obscure sorcerer. This does not appear to be the general opinion as per EB and others. The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism's entry begins:
Padmasambhava. (T. Padma ’byung gnas) (fl. eighth century). Indian Buddhist master and tantric adept widely revered in Tibet under the appellation Guru rin po che, “Precious Guru”; considered to be the “second buddha” by members of the RNYING MA sect of Tibetan Buddhism, who view him as a founder of their tradition. In Tibetan, he is also known as Padma ’byung gnas (Pemajungne), “the Lotus Born,” which translates his Sanskrit name. It is difficult to assess the many legends surrounding his life and deeds, although the scholarly consensus is that he was a historical figure and did visit Tibet.
This is quite contrary to the sentiment currently expressed in the lead of this article.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 06:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
What factual accuracy are you now disputing with your tag? VictoriaGrayson Talk 22:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
According to earlier histories, Padmasambhava had given some tantric teachings to Tibetans before being forced to leave due to the suspicions of the Tibetan court. But from the twelfth century an alternative story, itself a terma discovery, gave Padmasambhava a much greater role in the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet, and in particular credited him with travelling all over the country to convert the local spirits to Buddhism
VictoriaGrayson Talk 16:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
: @
VictoriaGrayson: "Top tibetologist" as opposed to
Donald S. Lopez, Jr.,
Robert Buswell, Jr.,
Per Kværne,
Kurtis Schaeffer, et al.? The heart of the matter as per the quoted passage is that the "alternative story" gave Padmasambhava
(the 8th century figure) a much greater role
which is pretty much what everybody is saying. Historical figure first and terma discovery next; dismissing the historical figure in the summary is effectively OR. From the
Historical Dictionary of Buddhism by
Carl Olson:
A north Indian tantric yogin who lived during the eighth century and was believed to be an emanation of the Buddha Amitabha …
From A Dictionary of Buddhism by Damien Keown:
The great 8th century ce yogin.often known as Guru Rinpoche, who was instrumental in introducing Buddhism into Tibet during the reign of King Trisong Detsen (Tib., Khri srong lde brtsan). He is especially venerated by the Nyingma school who view him as a ‘second Buddha’ …
From the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions by John Bowker:
Prominent member of the Indian siddha tradition associated with the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet and founder …
… and so on. -- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 05:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, the figure of Padmasambhava has played a key role in the narrative of Buddhism’s arrival in Tibet, its establishment in Tibet, and its subsequent transmission to later generations.
This qualified statement is in keeping with the other sources as it credits the figure of Padmasambhava with the introduction (arrival) and establishment of Buddhism in Tibet.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 11:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
who is said to have introduced" in my edit. Lopez and Buswell are following up on their previous statement where they state that
It is difficult to assess the many legends surrounding his life and deeds, although the scholarly consensus is that he was a historical figure and did visit Tibet.You will notice that the other sources use similar wordings ("
associated with the introduction of Buddhism", "
instrumental in introducing Buddhism into Tibet"). Anyhow, is this your only gripe with my edit? I'm happy to have the wording tweaked accordingly. If you're opposed to the other parts of the edit as well, then I'd like to refer this issue to whatever mediation process WP has in place to resolve editorial disputes. Thanks.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 12:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I've noticed your ongoing quarrels, and didn't dare to dive into it. I will now, though. But could the two of you please stop reverting back-and-forth? Please add some tag to the article, with a link to the relevant talkpage-section, and try to work this out, with the help of others, like me. I'll need some time to read and understand the contested text, but I will, I promise. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:08, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Hey Captain! For the moment, I'd say: just leave it as it is now. The two of you have reverted so many times; and I'm not an "official" Wiki-mediator or so; I'm just trying to do my wiki-duty. Vic asked me to help, so I do. He knows I'm objective (more or less), and also critical of him. So, I don't feel like diving into the nuances of policies regarding; I'm just curious what's going on, and would to hear your arguments and considerations. Vic already agreed to removed the term "obscure sorcerer" from the lead, so that's a starting-point, isn't it? (It's an interesting qualification, though; yoga is not only about moksha, but also about siddhis. Hence the term "sorcerer," I guess) I hope this answer is satisfying; otherwise, please ask more. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
"Obscure sorcerer" versus "second Buddha": that summarises (summarizes?) the problem, doesn't it? I just read the talkpage; some compromise must be possible. Vic, you're a mighty analist, and I really like your grasp of academical virtuosity. But let's also try to give some consideration to human sensitivities (academics are human too, of course; and academic brilliancy can be hurt too).
So, the full part (4,811 bits (or signs?)) would be this, while a smaller part (3,063) would be this, right? Pfff... First the lead. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Several contested parts. I'll subhead them all. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Cpt.a.haddock is the one disagreeing with what mainstream scholars say. See WP:IRONY. I have compromised and included some of Cpt.a.haddock's info in the following:
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [1] [2]
VictoriaGrayson Talk 01:45, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, is a literary character of terma, [2] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of Tibetan Buddhist practice, particularly in the Nyingma school.
References
Do the two of you agree on this part? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
In Tibetan Buddhism Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, is a character of a genera of literature called terma, [1] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of guru yoga practice, particularly in the Rimé schools.
References
VictoriaGrayson Talk 04:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Fine. Then just as Buswell and Lopez have done, please begin your paraphrasing of their entry by calling Padmasambhava a Buddhist master and tantric adept (a phrase even Schaik religiously employs), a "second Buddha" viewed as a founder by the Nyingma tradition, etc., and then note his role in the NARRATIVE of Buddhism's arrival later. The reader can make up his own mind as well as read later sections for more information. Thanks.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 16:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Or do we start with this one, from the 4,811 version:
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was a legendary Indian Buddhist master who is said to have introduced Vajrayana to Tibet in the 8th century. He was instrumental in the establishment of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet. [1] The Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism consider Padmasambhava a founder of their tradition and closely follow his teachings. [2] A number of legends have grown around Padmasambhava's life and deeds and he is widely venerated as a 'second Buddha' across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. [3] [4]
References
{{
cite book}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help)
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Remove or include the sorcerer?
Although there was also a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known of the "obscure Indian sorcerer" [1] apart from him helping the construction of a temple at Samye at the behest of Trisong Detsen and shortly being chased out of Tibet. [2]
References
NB: the term "sorcerer" is not explained in the article. It would be good to explain this term. And then, still, alternatives may be simply "him," or 'Padmasambhava, also known as the "obscure Indian sorcerer" and as "the second Buddha." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Although there was also a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known apart from helping the construction of a temple at Samye at the behest of Trisong Detsen and shortly being chased out of Tibet. [1]
VictoriaGrayson Talk 04:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
And is this to be included or excluded? Also depends on "legendary Indian master," doesn't it?
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [2] [1]
References
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Not even a proposal, but a suggestion:
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was a legendary Indian Buddhist master who is said to have introduced Vajrayana to Tibet in the 8th century.
Although there was a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known of him apart from helping the construction of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet at Samye, at the behest of Trisong Detsen, [1] and shortly thereafter leaving Tibet due to court intrigues. [2]
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [3] [2]
A number of legends have grown around Padmasambhava's life and deeds, and he is widely venerated as a 'second Buddha' across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. [4] [3]
He is a main literary character of terma, [2] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of Tibetan Buddhist practice, and the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism consider Padmasambhava to be a founder of their tradition, and closely follow his teachings. [5]
References
- ^ Kværne, Per (2013). Tuttle, Gray; Schaeffer, Kurtis R. (eds.). The Tibetan history reader. New York: Columbia University Press. p. 168. ISBN 9780231144698.
{{ cite book}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
( help)- ^ a b c Schaik, Sam van. Tibet: A History. Yale University Press 2011, page 34-5, 96-8.
- ^ a b Buswell, Robert E.; Lopez, Jr., Donald S. (2013). The Princeton dictionary of Buddhism. Princeton: Princeton University Press. p. 608. ISBN 9781400848058. Retrieved 5 October 2015.
- ^ "Padmasambhava". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 5 October 2015.
- ^ Harvey, Peter (2008). An Introduction to Buddhism Teachings, History and Practices (2 ed. ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 204. ISBN 9780521676748. Retrieved 6 October 2015.
{{ cite book}}
:|edition=
has extra text ( help)
How about this? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:33, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Padmasambhava [note 2] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was an
legendary8th-century Indian Buddhist master and tantric adept who played a key role in the narrative of the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. As a literary character of terma, he is believed to be an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters, particularly by the Nyingma school who consider Padmasambhava a founder of their tradition and a 'second Buddha'. Padmasambhava is widely venerated across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. Very little is known of the historical Padmasambhava besides his role in the establishment of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet at Samye at the behest of the emperor, Trisong Detsen. While it is unknown exactly how long he spent in Tibet, it is believed that rumour and intrigue at the royal court kept his stay brief. Traditional accounts …
… and expand further …
(cross post. This does not address VG's latest concerns.)
--
Cpt.a.haddock (
talk) (please ping when replying)
18:15, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
We're only talking about the lead now, aren't we? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Next. What we've got now is Captain's preferred version, right? May I suggest that we simply add Vic's info?:
Sam van Schaik notes that twelfth century terma departs from earlier histories by presenting a story of Padmasambhava travelling the countryside converting local spirits:
- According to earlier histories, Padmasambhava had given some tantric teachings to Tibetans before being forced to leave due to the suspicions of the Tibetan court. But from the twelfth century an alternative story, itself a terma discovery, gave Padmasambhava a much greater role in the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet, and in particular credited him with travelling all over the country to convert the local spirits to Buddhism. [1]
References
- ^ Schaik, Sam van. Tibet: A History. Yale University Press 2011, page 96.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This part is not clear to me:
Nyangrel Nyima Özer (1136-1204) was the principal architect of the Padmasambhava mythos, [1] and the Padmasambhava biography terma art revealer. [1] Zanglingma (Jeweled Rosary) is Nyang Ral Nyima Özer's Guru Rinpoche terma biography. It's in the vast treasury Rinchen Terdzö collection. [2] Guru Chöwang (1212–1270) was the next major contributor to the cycle. [1] [3]
References
- ^ a b c Gyatso, Janet (August 2006). "A Partial Genealogy of the Lifestory of Ye shes mtsho rgyal". The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (2).
- ^ gu ru'i bka' thang zangs gling ma le'u zhe gcig pa/ rin chen gter mdzod chen mo/ volume ka, pp.1-219
- ^ Schmidt, Erick Hein (2004). The Lotus-Born: The Life Story of Padmasambhava, recorded by Yeshe Tsogyal, transl (1st ed.). Rangjung Yeshe Publications. p. 3.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
To be done later. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Only solution is to have 2 Padmasambhava articles. One on the mythological Padmasambhava. One on the historical Padmasambhava. VictoriaGrayson Talk 15:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Really should take the something like the Hagiography approach when writing about this greatest masters attributes. While in school scholars carry him in hearts mind, school outside scholars just may not get his story (history) right with her say (heresy). Zulu Papa 5 * ( talk) 03:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to move the section on the five consorts out of the icongraphy section. It is degrading to have the only mention of these important women practitioners, and founders of Tibetan Buddhism, be listed as "attributes" in iconography. I propose they get their own section, just as the 25 main disciples get a section. What are your thoughts and suggestions on this? 05:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AD64 ( talk • contribs)
I've made the change to the structure of the article, putting the 5 consorts and 25 disciples together in the last section. I also added content and links for the five wisdom consorts and removed unnecessary content and less than reliable reference. The deleted content remains in my sandbox, should it be needed. Let me know if you have suggestions or concerns. Best, AD64 ( talk) 01:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Padmasambhava. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi
49.37.46.178 (
talk)
17:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Padmasambhava article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are many scholarly articles which suggests that Oddiyana is recognized more likely with Uddiyana or Odra Desha - present day Odisha. Most of the Mahayana Buddhist belive it is somewhere near the Mahanadi and Baitarani delta. Padmasambhava was son of King Indrabhuti who is known to have ruled Shambhala which is Sambalpur in Odisha. I suggest that we make it balanced by saying that "Oddiyana is a place in North India which is recognized with Odisha. Few historians also point it to SWAT valley in Pakistan. As it is very difficult to settle down with one location(as per Wiki guidelines) we need to make it balanced. As there is a equal consensus of it being in Odisha as well. I suggest a move here. 216.163.246.1 ( talk) 14:39, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it's useful to compare the opening section of this article with the corresponding article in Britannica -- http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/438026/Padmasambhava To me, an educated lay person with no expertise in this topic -- i.e. a perfect example of the intended audience of Wikipedia -- Britannica's is *vastly* superior. Its opening matches pretty much everything I *have* read on Padmasambhava, and doesn't muddy things up with references to "literary character[s]" (whatever *that* means), "terma" or "tertons" (the fact that both of those are linked to their master articles doesn't, to my mind, excuse their use in the opening). The linked article at http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Padmasambhava is also superior in my opinion.
I've added a "too technical" tag, although "too obscure" would be more accurate. Could someone knowledgeable simplify the opening, and move the extraneous stuff down into the main article? Thomask0 ( talk) 18:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Older discussions are archived here. Bahnheckl ( talk) 16:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Can anyone provide the pronunciation for his name in in Devanagari and the International Phonetic Alphabet? My main question is which A s are long, and which are short? This has a big effect on how the word sounds.
Psmeers ( talk) 09:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Om Ha Hum Guru Padma Siddhi Hum should be cited as his main mantra. Gus
Actually, the above is wrong- it should be Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum, or Om Ah Hung Bensa Guru Pema Siddhi Hung in Tibetan, as it says in the article. AdamHolt
Im confused by this second buddha thing - werent there many buddhas before Shakyamuni? Another buddha then? Or, simply, consider him to be enlightened, if that info has any value at all that is? DN
References
What about if the oral transmission of the mantra is with the wrong pronunciation or if we pronounce it incorrectly? I think in this case, there is no difference in the power and ability of reciting it in these inaccurate ways. After all, the Tibetans do not pronounce certain words of mantras the way the Indians did. For example, Tibetans pronounce the Sanskrit word vajra as "bendza" and the Mongols pronounce it as "ochir." Nevertheless, we cannot say that Tibetans and Mongols reciting mantras while pronouncing "vajra" as "bendza" or "ochir" have not had any attainments or that their attainments were lesser than those of Indians pronouncing "vajra" as "vajra." The inspiring ability instilled by Buddha on the sounds of the mantra is still transmitted despite the deformation of its pronunciation. This is because there is still an unbroken transmission of the mantra. After all, the oral transmission of texts originally written in Sanskrit is considered to be unbroken even when the transmission is continued with the recitation of the texts in translation, such as in Tibetan or Chinese. The transmission line is like an individual mental continuum: each moment is neither the same nor totally different from the previous moment. Each moment arises merely dependently on the previous moment as an unbroken continuity of it, with nothing findable passing from moment to moment to establish the existence of the continuity.
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
The fact that he is the patron saint of Sikkim is only mentioned in the picture's title. Could some info on the history of this be added to the text of the article? Wiki-uk 09:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
On German wikipedia site the eight manifestations mentioned there are not completely the same. That Guru Orgyen Dorje Chang is lacking on the german site, instead there is a Guru Tsokye Dorje who is lacking on english wikipedia site (this one). Does anybody know about those different names? Are they thought to be different people?
Within this long text on Padmasambhava maybe an answer to my question is to be found. [1]
According to this text [2], going first to Lineage and second to Khordong History Tsokye Dorje is another name for Padmasambhava.
The depictions are usually Padmasambhava plus his eight manifestations (so 9 in all). Tsokye Dorje ("Lake born vajra" - a form of Padmasambhava with the vajra held at his heart) is usually the central figure surrounded by the other eight. Cfynn ( talk) 20:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Shouldn't all of them be mentioned?
Some more information should be added to the article.
the same, on guru Dorje Drollo, [4],
Dorje Drolo is a wrathful manifestation of Padmasambava and a subduer of demons. Guru Padma arose in the wrathful form of Dorje Drolo in the famous Tagstang or Tiger’s Nest Cave in Bhutan in order to subdue the negative and demonic forces of these degenerate times. Ferocious in expression, amidst a mass of primordial wisdom fire, he stands upon the back of a pregnant tigress who is the wrathful form of his Wisdom Consort of enlightened activity, Tashi Kye Dren, whose ferocity is unpredictable and wild. Dressed in a robe of brocade, his body is purple in color and he wears a garland of severed heads representing the cutting of the 52 levels of dualistic mind-concepts. In his right hand he holds a vajra aloft emitting lightening bolts, and in his left a kila-purba that severs the three poisons that are the source of all suffering. The ferocious expression he wears while riding a tigress makes for a menacing figure. His body is dark brown and surrounded by a halo of flames."
References
German text [1].
Yeshe Tsongyal: Meister Padma bindet alle Götter und Dämonen Tibets durch Eid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.202.214 ( talk) 10:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
the wikitext says that the socalled eight manifestations are different aspects of his being. I don't know.
This text [5] says in section 12. Departure From The World says: "In Tibetan art he is also shown as a group of eight, representing eight major events in his life."
I have to think about this.
What does Rigpa Shedra say here [7]
Response by Xeltifon: Rigpa Shedra says the Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü [1] ("Union of All Innermost Essences" Tibetan: ཐུགས་སྒྲུབ་ཡང་སྙིང་ཀུན་འདུས་, Wylie: thugs sgrub yang snying kun 'dus) sadhana of Padmasambhava's Eight Manifestations [2] comes from a "pure vision" [3] ( Tibetan: དག་སྣང་, Wylie: dag snang) terma of the 5th Dalai Lama contained in his Sangwa Gyachen [4] ( Tibetan: གསང་བ་རྒྱ་ཅན་, Wylie: gsang ba rgya can), and that the "sadhana and empowerment texts were arranged by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo". Whether or not Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's involvement qualifies the aforementioned sadhana as one of the sixth in the Seven Authoritative Transmissions [5] ( Tibetan: བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, Wylie: bka' babs bdun) I honestly have no idea, and frankly prefer not to hazard a guess. :^) :^) Hope this helps, regardless. Cheers! Xeltifon ( talk) 10:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü (Wyl. thugs sgrub yang snying kun 'dus) 'The Union of All the Innermost Essences' - Sadhana of Guru Rinpoche and his eight manifestations from the Sangwa Gyachen cycle of pure visions of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The sadhana and empowerment texts were arranged by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo.
The Eight Manifestations of Guru Rinpoche .... are the eight principal forms assumed by Guru Rinpoche at different points in his life .... The Eight Manifestations of Padmasambhava do not depict different Padmasambhavas, but reflect his ability to appear according to different needs and demands. In fact, they are called in Tibetan Guru Tsen Gyé, the eight 'names' of the Guru; each manifestation demonstrates a different principle that unveils the innermost nature of mind. As Guru Rinpoche said: "Mind itself is Padmasambhava; there is no practice or meditation apart from that."
Pure vision or visionary revelations .... are teachings received by masters directly from deities or gurus, in experiences or in dreams. More specifically, in the Nyingma tradition, pure vision teachings are one of the three main transmissions (Wyl. babs so), as well as one of the seven authoritative transmissions (Tib. བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, Wyl. bka' babs bdun) received by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa.
Sangwa Gyachen .... 'Bearing the Seal of Secrecy' - visionary teachings of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, composed of twenty-five sections dealing with distinct visions, including the Tukdrup Yang Nying Kundü.
Seven authoritative transmissions (Tib. བཀའ་བབས་བདུན་, ka bab dün; Wyl. bka' babs bdun) received by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa: 1. kama (Tib. བཀའ་མ་, Wyl. bka' ma) — the continuous transmission of sutra and tantra 2. sa ter (Tib. ས་གཏེར་, Wyl. sa gter) — earth treasures 3. yang ter (Tib. ཡང་གཏེར་, Wyl. yang gter) — rediscovered treasures 4. gong ter (Tib. དགོངས་གཏེར་, Wyl. dgongs gter) — mind treasures 5. nyen gyü (Tib. སྙན་བརྒྱུད་, Wyl. snyan brgyud) — oral transmission 6. dak nang (Tib. དག་སྣང་, Wyl. dag snang) — visionary revelations or 'pure visions' 7. jé dren (Tib. རྗེས་དྲན་, Wyl. rjes dran) — revelations from memory.
why there is tibetan script but no devanagari?
201.201.1.162 ( talk) 13:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan: "The section on Padmasambhava you removed was actually up for a few years and the translator of that, Erik publisher of Rangjung, was very happy about it. Your editing history is mainly bitter and negative. Secondly you have messed with things you don't understand and since you're not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism which is the ultimate intent of Shakyamuni & completely alien to your middle class passe fad of westernized Japonisme. I would advise not meddling further in areas you don't understand." (Unsigned, but written by User:The1973onez diff
Wikipedia-articles give summaries of information available elsewhere, not copies of extended info. See WP:SIZE. Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 07:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The1973onez: I replied to your friend you involved on his talk page and pointed out your editing of Tibetan Buddhist contents you have embarked upon is in ignorance and furthermore in bias and has to be constantly monitored. User:The1973onez [8] (UTC)
Dear Afterwriting, you are a follower of Zen which dismisses Tibetan Buddhist basic tenets, tantric practices and deities and have embarked upon systematic editing and deleting of TB sections. Secondly you dragged your friend into bullying me. He deleted my logical responses on his talk page to his verbal abuse. I will resurrect this issue at the right time. Thirdly you continue to abuse verbally as you just did calling my cool and logical responses as "ridiculous behaviour" and continue your bullying language and friends of yours who do the same. Your editing of Tibetan Buddhist sections will be monitored. Fourthly unlike a TB seasoned follower or an academic, your knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism is almost non-existent. Fifthly you consistently refuse to answer these logical objections to your habitual actions on Wiki. User:The1973onez [9] (UTC)
Dear Xeltifon, you left a long irrelevant rant on my talk page. See my answer above. What you're defending is like a Catholic editing and erasing large sections on reformation while claiming to be unbiased. Plus knowing next to nothing about the subject. Finally your long irrelevant diversions are truly a cause for concern as they are highly unstable in nature so I wish you well and calmness. User:The1973onez [10] (UTC)
Dear Afterwriting, I notice you censored my response to you in your talk page, like your friend did. I will resurrect this issue. This is is unethical as I did not censor your or your friend's on my page. All the best to you. User:The1973onez
Dear Afterwriting I hope you're well. Once again you censored my logical points about issues on your talk page. Then once again you wrote on my talk page which I let stand, unlike you and your friends, despite your methods. Finally you again avoided my enumerated points about the issues and merely called me names. Why do you abuse others by deleting their issue based comments, yet do the same on their page and to top it all merely abuse them personally too? If you have no empathy for human beings you should at least reciprocate the protocols and not indulge in prejudiced and discriminatory one sided methods. I will monitor your edits and will resurrect your unfair methods at the right time and place. All the best. User:The1973onez(UTC)
Maybe we should change the "Life and Teachings" section to expose the different views on Padmasambhava's life story. See for example the article on Bodhidharma. This way we'll have the following advantages:
Bahnheckl ( talk) 09:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The next major figure, Emperor Tri Songdetsen (Khri Srong sde-btsan), was cautious of the Chinese and paranoid of Zhang-zhung, most likely because his pro-Chinese father had been assassinated by the xenophobic, conservative Zhang-zhung political faction in the imperial court. In 761, he invited the Indian Buddhist abbot Shantarakshita to Tibet. There was a smallpox epidemic. The Zhang-zhung faction in court blamed Shantarakshita and deported him from the land. On the abbot's advice, the Emperor then invited Guru Rinpoche (Padmasambhava) from Swat (northwestern Pakistan), who drove out the demons who had caused the smallpox. The Emperor then reinvited Shantarakshita. Guru Rinpoche left in 774, without having completed the full transmission of dzogchen. Seeing that the times were not ripe, he buried some texts as buried treasure texts (gter-ma, "terma"). They were exclusively texts on dzogchen.
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
and |year=
/ |date=
mismatch (
help); More than one of |author=
and |last=
specified (
help)
Thank you for your response Xeltifon. There must be some academic study on the scientific value of the Namthar. I suggest we find it and add some footnotes on the matter? Bahnheckl ( talk) 15:33, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
"Padmasambhava's life is more than just a historical reality. It is the culmination of altruistic actions manifesting in perfect human form." (Tarthang Tulku)
All the incidents in the life of Padmasambhava, be they actual reminiscences or pious inventions, can betraced back to the gter-ma ("hidden treasures") tradition that began with Sangs-rgyasbla-ma (ca. 1000-1080) and, in the specific case of Padmasambhava, started withNyang-ral nyi-ma 'od-zer (1124-1192), the "discoverer" of the Slob-dpon Padma'byung-gnas-kyi skyes-rabs chos-'byung nor-bu'i phreng-ba rnam-thar zangs-gling-ma (of which several versions exists), and continued through a long line of "discoverers of hidden texts" (gter-ston) of whom the more important ones are (1) Chos-kyi dbangphyug (1212-1270), the "discoverer" of the bKa'-thang sde-lnga-the discovery occurred in 1231--of which the third section from among the five sections, the bTsun- mo'i bka'i thang-yig, is the most significant one because it contains old material,though no linguistic archaisms, and (2) Urgyan (or Orgyan) gling-pa (1323 or 1329-ca.1360 or 1367), the discoverer of the U-rgyan guru Padma-'byung-gnas-kyi skyes-rabsrnam-par thar-pa rgyas-par bkod-pa in 1346. This text is better known by its shorttitle of
Padma bka' -thang of which an excellent edition was published by the Si-khronrni-rigs (Minorities) Publishing House (China) in 1987.From a historical point of view these "rediscovered" texts are of little relevance:there are too many discrepancies, if not to say, blatant contradictions in one and the same text or the texts ascribed to one and the same author, concerning what we know to be historical facts. But from a literary point of view these "rediscovered" texts are of enormous importance. Written in verse form in the language as spoken by the"discoverer" at the time of their discovery, these texts reflect the Zeitgeist that demanded that everything had to be "Indian" and, therefore, as tendencious writings, they increasingly marginalize Padmasambhava's "foreign" (Urgyan, also spelled Orgy an)and even Tibetan connection. Thus, Padmasambhava's consort, mKhar-chen-bza' Yeshes 'tsho-rgyal (also spelled mtsho-rgyal), originally one of king Khri-srong Ide'ubtsan's five wives, requested by Padmasambhava and given to him by the king "for services rendered," is completely overshadowed by the princess Mandarava, daughterof the king of Zahor (somewhere situated between Nepal and Assam). It is this lastmentioned text that makes Padmasambhava a callous murderer in Urgyan and shows him to have had an inordinate interest in young girls. Thus, of
the two generally recognized consorts of Padmasambhava, mKhar-chen-bza' Ye-shes 'tsho-rgyal was about twelve years of age when Padmasambhava firsts met her, and the princess (Iha-Icam) Mandarava was thirteen years of age when he got involved with her. In an episode,recorded in the bTsun-mo bka'i thang (Paro edition 1976, p.551; Berthold Laufer, Der Roman einer tibetichen Kdnigin, text and translation, .Leipzig 1911, pp. 82 and 190), Padmasambhava is reported to have said when the king and his Bon queen Tshespong-bza' dmar-rgyan offered him their young and beautiful daughter Khrom-pargyan, as a reward for having cured the queen of leprosy: Iha-Icam Khrom-pa rgyan-Ia dgongs-pa mdzadphyi yul bzang-Ia nang sems dag-pas [Laufer, dge-basJ snang'gro-ba'i don mdzad sems-can mthun-par byarabs-chad ma-ning bya-ba'i ngag bcad phyirgurus khab-tu bzhes-par zhal-gyis bzhes I have thought about the princess Khrom-pa rgyan; Physically she is beautiful and mentally she is (still) innocent. Acting on behalf of the living beings she will make them live in harmony.In order to put an end to the rumor that my line will die out (because) I am impotent,I, the guru, promise to take her to be my wife. As the story goes, he had two sons from her, the one was a no-good and died young,the other was precocious, but failed to establish a "lineage." It is therefore very likely that these "rediscovered" texts are compositions in themanner of historical fiction by the respective discoverers. [1]
References
Oy vey -- I'm not dead yet! Sorry -- I got knocked outta commission rather badly for a few days there and started burrowing myself into a whole completely different area when I came out of it, as I very often to do. I've just now skimmed through these one "next edit" at a time, since only now am I starting to check my emails again. Still very much a noob where diff and talk pages are concerned -- which ain't to rationalize anything stoopid i've done so much as it's just to say "eek!" There's a humongous amount of excellent material here now -- a whole nice big shiny new shipping pallet loaded up with cans o' worms, if you will -- and I'm frankly more than a little overwhelmed; I gotta catch up systematically, or else I'll be completely screwed. I wade out so far into things before I even know it -- and not on purpose, either; just seems to be what I do. Obviously I've got questions to answer and have a great deal to review here; please for whatever it's worth do know I'm not ignoring anyone -- just need to get a little project I've been kinda focused on to a *little* bit better stopping point than where it's at before I change directions, otherwise I'll wind up with sixty-four gazillion things *not* done, *and* some angry Mongol hordes on my doorstep, to boot. :^) :^)
All the best,༺།།ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ།།འཚེར།། xeltifon།།སར་ཝ་མང་ག་ལམ།།༻ { say it} { contribs} { ζ } 13:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
What is the deal with inserting the quote in the lead? VictoriaGrayson Talk 21:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
I just joined Wikipedia because of this page, which I found to be forbiddingly rich in jargon. The first graf makes no sense to someone who is not already well versed in Buddhist terminology -- and the rest of the article continues in that vein. Seems to me that the article is therefore not useful to the general reader.
Apologies for any breaches in protocol - as I say, I've just now joined, so I don't know How Things Go around here. But I can't make heads or tails of this article. Ethandeseife ( talk) 19:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
The lead currently dismisses Padmasambhava as an obscure sorcerer. This does not appear to be the general opinion as per EB and others. The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism's entry begins:
Padmasambhava. (T. Padma ’byung gnas) (fl. eighth century). Indian Buddhist master and tantric adept widely revered in Tibet under the appellation Guru rin po che, “Precious Guru”; considered to be the “second buddha” by members of the RNYING MA sect of Tibetan Buddhism, who view him as a founder of their tradition. In Tibetan, he is also known as Padma ’byung gnas (Pemajungne), “the Lotus Born,” which translates his Sanskrit name. It is difficult to assess the many legends surrounding his life and deeds, although the scholarly consensus is that he was a historical figure and did visit Tibet.
This is quite contrary to the sentiment currently expressed in the lead of this article.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 06:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
What factual accuracy are you now disputing with your tag? VictoriaGrayson Talk 22:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
According to earlier histories, Padmasambhava had given some tantric teachings to Tibetans before being forced to leave due to the suspicions of the Tibetan court. But from the twelfth century an alternative story, itself a terma discovery, gave Padmasambhava a much greater role in the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet, and in particular credited him with travelling all over the country to convert the local spirits to Buddhism
VictoriaGrayson Talk 16:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
: @
VictoriaGrayson: "Top tibetologist" as opposed to
Donald S. Lopez, Jr.,
Robert Buswell, Jr.,
Per Kværne,
Kurtis Schaeffer, et al.? The heart of the matter as per the quoted passage is that the "alternative story" gave Padmasambhava
(the 8th century figure) a much greater role
which is pretty much what everybody is saying. Historical figure first and terma discovery next; dismissing the historical figure in the summary is effectively OR. From the
Historical Dictionary of Buddhism by
Carl Olson:
A north Indian tantric yogin who lived during the eighth century and was believed to be an emanation of the Buddha Amitabha …
From A Dictionary of Buddhism by Damien Keown:
The great 8th century ce yogin.often known as Guru Rinpoche, who was instrumental in introducing Buddhism into Tibet during the reign of King Trisong Detsen (Tib., Khri srong lde brtsan). He is especially venerated by the Nyingma school who view him as a ‘second Buddha’ …
From the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions by John Bowker:
Prominent member of the Indian siddha tradition associated with the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet and founder …
… and so on. -- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 05:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, the figure of Padmasambhava has played a key role in the narrative of Buddhism’s arrival in Tibet, its establishment in Tibet, and its subsequent transmission to later generations.
This qualified statement is in keeping with the other sources as it credits the figure of Padmasambhava with the introduction (arrival) and establishment of Buddhism in Tibet.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 11:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
who is said to have introduced" in my edit. Lopez and Buswell are following up on their previous statement where they state that
It is difficult to assess the many legends surrounding his life and deeds, although the scholarly consensus is that he was a historical figure and did visit Tibet.You will notice that the other sources use similar wordings ("
associated with the introduction of Buddhism", "
instrumental in introducing Buddhism into Tibet"). Anyhow, is this your only gripe with my edit? I'm happy to have the wording tweaked accordingly. If you're opposed to the other parts of the edit as well, then I'd like to refer this issue to whatever mediation process WP has in place to resolve editorial disputes. Thanks.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 12:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I've noticed your ongoing quarrels, and didn't dare to dive into it. I will now, though. But could the two of you please stop reverting back-and-forth? Please add some tag to the article, with a link to the relevant talkpage-section, and try to work this out, with the help of others, like me. I'll need some time to read and understand the contested text, but I will, I promise. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:08, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Hey Captain! For the moment, I'd say: just leave it as it is now. The two of you have reverted so many times; and I'm not an "official" Wiki-mediator or so; I'm just trying to do my wiki-duty. Vic asked me to help, so I do. He knows I'm objective (more or less), and also critical of him. So, I don't feel like diving into the nuances of policies regarding; I'm just curious what's going on, and would to hear your arguments and considerations. Vic already agreed to removed the term "obscure sorcerer" from the lead, so that's a starting-point, isn't it? (It's an interesting qualification, though; yoga is not only about moksha, but also about siddhis. Hence the term "sorcerer," I guess) I hope this answer is satisfying; otherwise, please ask more. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
"Obscure sorcerer" versus "second Buddha": that summarises (summarizes?) the problem, doesn't it? I just read the talkpage; some compromise must be possible. Vic, you're a mighty analist, and I really like your grasp of academical virtuosity. But let's also try to give some consideration to human sensitivities (academics are human too, of course; and academic brilliancy can be hurt too).
So, the full part (4,811 bits (or signs?)) would be this, while a smaller part (3,063) would be this, right? Pfff... First the lead. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Several contested parts. I'll subhead them all. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Cpt.a.haddock is the one disagreeing with what mainstream scholars say. See WP:IRONY. I have compromised and included some of Cpt.a.haddock's info in the following:
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [1] [2]
VictoriaGrayson Talk 01:45, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, is a literary character of terma, [2] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of Tibetan Buddhist practice, particularly in the Nyingma school.
References
Do the two of you agree on this part? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
In Tibetan Buddhism Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, is a character of a genera of literature called terma, [1] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of guru yoga practice, particularly in the Rimé schools.
References
VictoriaGrayson Talk 04:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Fine. Then just as Buswell and Lopez have done, please begin your paraphrasing of their entry by calling Padmasambhava a Buddhist master and tantric adept (a phrase even Schaik religiously employs), a "second Buddha" viewed as a founder by the Nyingma tradition, etc., and then note his role in the NARRATIVE of Buddhism's arrival later. The reader can make up his own mind as well as read later sections for more information. Thanks.-- Cpt.a.haddock ( talk) (please ping when replying) 16:48, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Or do we start with this one, from the 4,811 version:
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was a legendary Indian Buddhist master who is said to have introduced Vajrayana to Tibet in the 8th century. He was instrumental in the establishment of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet. [1] The Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism consider Padmasambhava a founder of their tradition and closely follow his teachings. [2] A number of legends have grown around Padmasambhava's life and deeds and he is widely venerated as a 'second Buddha' across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. [3] [4]
References
{{
cite book}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help)
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help)
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Remove or include the sorcerer?
Although there was also a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known of the "obscure Indian sorcerer" [1] apart from him helping the construction of a temple at Samye at the behest of Trisong Detsen and shortly being chased out of Tibet. [2]
References
NB: the term "sorcerer" is not explained in the article. It would be good to explain this term. And then, still, alternatives may be simply "him," or 'Padmasambhava, also known as the "obscure Indian sorcerer" and as "the second Buddha." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Although there was also a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known apart from helping the construction of a temple at Samye at the behest of Trisong Detsen and shortly being chased out of Tibet. [1]
VictoriaGrayson Talk 04:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
And is this to be included or excluded? Also depends on "legendary Indian master," doesn't it?
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [2] [1]
References
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Not even a proposal, but a suggestion:
Padmasambhava [note 1] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was a legendary Indian Buddhist master who is said to have introduced Vajrayana to Tibet in the 8th century.
Although there was a historical Padmasambhava, nothing is known of him apart from helping the construction of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet at Samye, at the behest of Trisong Detsen, [1] and shortly thereafter leaving Tibet due to court intrigues. [2]
Regardless of his historical status and the duration of his stay in Tibet, Padmasambhava came to be viewed in later narratives as providing a key role with the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. [3] [2]
A number of legends have grown around Padmasambhava's life and deeds, and he is widely venerated as a 'second Buddha' across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. [4] [3]
He is a main literary character of terma, [2] an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters and a focus of Tibetan Buddhist practice, and the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism consider Padmasambhava to be a founder of their tradition, and closely follow his teachings. [5]
References
- ^ Kværne, Per (2013). Tuttle, Gray; Schaeffer, Kurtis R. (eds.). The Tibetan history reader. New York: Columbia University Press. p. 168. ISBN 9780231144698.
{{ cite book}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
( help)- ^ a b c Schaik, Sam van. Tibet: A History. Yale University Press 2011, page 34-5, 96-8.
- ^ a b Buswell, Robert E.; Lopez, Jr., Donald S. (2013). The Princeton dictionary of Buddhism. Princeton: Princeton University Press. p. 608. ISBN 9781400848058. Retrieved 5 October 2015.
- ^ "Padmasambhava". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 5 October 2015.
- ^ Harvey, Peter (2008). An Introduction to Buddhism Teachings, History and Practices (2 ed. ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 204. ISBN 9780521676748. Retrieved 6 October 2015.
{{ cite book}}
:|edition=
has extra text ( help)
How about this? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:33, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Padmasambhava [note 2] (lit. "Lotus-Born"), also known as Guru Rinpoche, was an
legendary8th-century Indian Buddhist master and tantric adept who played a key role in the narrative of the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet. As a literary character of terma, he is believed to be an emanation of Amitābha that is said to appear to tertöns in visionary encounters, particularly by the Nyingma school who consider Padmasambhava a founder of their tradition and a 'second Buddha'. Padmasambhava is widely venerated across Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and the Himalayan states of India. Very little is known of the historical Padmasambhava besides his role in the establishment of the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet at Samye at the behest of the emperor, Trisong Detsen. While it is unknown exactly how long he spent in Tibet, it is believed that rumour and intrigue at the royal court kept his stay brief. Traditional accounts …
… and expand further …
(cross post. This does not address VG's latest concerns.)
--
Cpt.a.haddock (
talk) (please ping when replying)
18:15, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
We're only talking about the lead now, aren't we? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Next. What we've got now is Captain's preferred version, right? May I suggest that we simply add Vic's info?:
Sam van Schaik notes that twelfth century terma departs from earlier histories by presenting a story of Padmasambhava travelling the countryside converting local spirits:
- According to earlier histories, Padmasambhava had given some tantric teachings to Tibetans before being forced to leave due to the suspicions of the Tibetan court. But from the twelfth century an alternative story, itself a terma discovery, gave Padmasambhava a much greater role in the introduction of Buddhism to Tibet, and in particular credited him with travelling all over the country to convert the local spirits to Buddhism. [1]
References
- ^ Schaik, Sam van. Tibet: A History. Yale University Press 2011, page 96.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
This part is not clear to me:
Nyangrel Nyima Özer (1136-1204) was the principal architect of the Padmasambhava mythos, [1] and the Padmasambhava biography terma art revealer. [1] Zanglingma (Jeweled Rosary) is Nyang Ral Nyima Özer's Guru Rinpoche terma biography. It's in the vast treasury Rinchen Terdzö collection. [2] Guru Chöwang (1212–1270) was the next major contributor to the cycle. [1] [3]
References
- ^ a b c Gyatso, Janet (August 2006). "A Partial Genealogy of the Lifestory of Ye shes mtsho rgyal". The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (2).
- ^ gu ru'i bka' thang zangs gling ma le'u zhe gcig pa/ rin chen gter mdzod chen mo/ volume ka, pp.1-219
- ^ Schmidt, Erick Hein (2004). The Lotus-Born: The Life Story of Padmasambhava, recorded by Yeshe Tsogyal, transl (1st ed.). Rangjung Yeshe Publications. p. 3.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
To be done later. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Only solution is to have 2 Padmasambhava articles. One on the mythological Padmasambhava. One on the historical Padmasambhava. VictoriaGrayson Talk 15:56, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Really should take the something like the Hagiography approach when writing about this greatest masters attributes. While in school scholars carry him in hearts mind, school outside scholars just may not get his story (history) right with her say (heresy). Zulu Papa 5 * ( talk) 03:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to move the section on the five consorts out of the icongraphy section. It is degrading to have the only mention of these important women practitioners, and founders of Tibetan Buddhism, be listed as "attributes" in iconography. I propose they get their own section, just as the 25 main disciples get a section. What are your thoughts and suggestions on this? 05:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AD64 ( talk • contribs)
I've made the change to the structure of the article, putting the 5 consorts and 25 disciples together in the last section. I also added content and links for the five wisdom consorts and removed unnecessary content and less than reliable reference. The deleted content remains in my sandbox, should it be needed. Let me know if you have suggestions or concerns. Best, AD64 ( talk) 01:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Padmasambhava. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi
49.37.46.178 (
talk)
17:16, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).