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@ Zoglophie: Reo kwon has a valid point. "P. V. Sindhu" has their family name initialized, which means it is little known and seldom used. Even the reputed media houses like BBC, The Hindu, which represent the professional standard of writing, refer her by the given name subsequently. MOS:SURNAME is not a hard and fast rule, and common sense trumps all guidelines. -- Ab207 ( talk) 05:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
That's why we can hardly find any English-language sources which refer to her by surname.Again, this is what I was pointing out; I have a feeling you're confusing what sources' subsequent usage is vs. what WP's subsequent usage policy is. It doesn't matter what other sources are doing with regard to our subsequent usage policy. You argument would be valid if the article made no mention of her last name at all, but just had "P. V. Sindhu" everywhere. Since it introduces her full name as the first word of the article, the question of whether someone would be familiar or not is immaterial; it's right there.
but our average reader knows her by the name P. V. Sindhu. Firstly, this is refuted by the fact that people who know her know her for her badminton, not for other reasons. Saying that she is known professionally as "Pusarla [V.] Sindhu", but that people don't know her as such is illogical. Secondly, the statement is not corroborated by evidence, seeing as even most of the non-sports-related reliable sources refer to her as "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" at first mention. So even going by your logic of reliable sources not mentioning it, the argument doesn't hold up. Thirdly, are you arguing that a person who's landed on an article entitled "P. V. Sindhu" and has the first mention as "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" is going to suddenly get confused when they see "Pusarla" in subsequent mentions? The point isn't that the rules are firm; it's that there's absolutely no reason to break them in this case. MOS:SURNAME is pretty clear: if they have a surname and use it professionally, use it in subsequent mentions; if not, then use their professional/given name. I don't know why you're complicating it unnecessarily. Getsnoopy ( talk) 22:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello! I was linked to this debate on another another discussion about Telugu names. This seems to have descended into a "professional" vs "non professional" name argument, when really it is about cultural differences. Traditional Telugu names are in the order "[family name] [given name] [optional caste name]", with people being referred to by their given or caste name in both Telugu and English. As per MOS:GIVENNAME, there are several cultures where people are referred to by their given name on Wikipedia. Vietnamese is the most similar one in this regard: for example, Ngô Đình Diệm is not referred to by his surname Ngô, but by his given name Diệm as per Vietnamese customs. In a similar context, Tamil names have a similar structure where (a) patronymic(s) is placed first and a given name is added on after that, with the given name being used to refer to that person (ex. E. V. K. Sampath).
As for the jerseys, is it indeed true that in international events her jersey reads Pusarla (2016 Olympics, 2018 Asian Games, 2019 BWF World). However, it could be that they put the surname without realizing that its the given name that is supposed to be used (which seems to have resulted in the ridiculous situation that only "P V" is written on the virtual score widget on RTVE's telecast in the 2015 Denmark Open, even though her jersey had "P V Sindhu" written on it). The 2014 Asian Championships has gotten it right, with Sindhu P V (that is to say, "Sindhu, P. V.") being written on the jersey and "Sindhu" being the name used on the broadcast widget. In addition, Sindhu is referred to as such in interviews (links: 1 2 3) which I think is better evidence. MSG17 ( talk) 17:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Subject is exclusively referred as Sindhu or P V .Sindhu in all almost WP:RS sources not Purshala and even in School and College she was called Sindhu .In this Indian name, the name Pusarla is a patronymic, and the person should be referred to by the given name, Sindhu.Her father's name is also Pusarla Venkata Ramana that is P. V. Ramana and he is refered as Ramana not Pusarla just as Sindhu. Readers almost exclusively know as Sindhu which is WP:COMMONNAME not Purshala. Further in South Indian names like Muthuvel Karunanidhi the subject is referred as Karunandhi not Muthuvel. Sindhu's sister Divya is referred as Divya not Purshala.Her name is also Pusarla Venkata Divya .Both Sindhu and sister Divya are called Sindhu and Divya not Purshala
Sindhu became the first Indian woman to win two individual medals at the Olympics, having added to her silver in Rio 2016but not Pusarla became the first [...]. I think MOS:GIVENNAME (Culture-specific usages) (
In Southeast and South Asia, many people use only a personal name, which may be followed by a patronymic; in such cases, they should be referred to by their personal name.) supersedes the MOS:SURNAME (Subsequent use) here. I think we should follow RS and the MOS:GIVENNAME guideline for the subsequent use and not MOS:SURNAME. (Same reply copied from India noticeboard ( Special:PermaLink/1036935778#P. V. Sindhu). I think we should decide where the discussion must go, and not be duplicated.) -- DaxServer ( talk) 15:26, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Excuse me for breaking threaded replies, but it's needed for the table. I've compiled a short list where reliable sources used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. A few articles mentioned the full name, but have fallback to Sindhu for later use in the articles. I've come across some articles where she is only referred once or twice, and in such cases the article noted P.V. Sindhu and not other format. I've added archived URLs as not all of them are freely accessible, and could be useful broadly for everyone. Let me know if: you've noticed any articles that were syndicated and/or duplicated across publications; you'd like to add more to the list; you've noticed any errors. I could not find coverage in NYT, WSJ, WaPo, The Guardian, but if you could find some, please do so! The articles were chosen at random, mostly the first one I could get when I queried in the format "pv sindhu 2019 site:thehindu.com"
Publication | Now | One year ago | Couple of years ago | A while ago | A long time ago |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Hindu | [2] (Aug 2021) | [3] (Aug 2020) | [4] (July 2019) | [5] (Nov 2015) | [6] (Sept 2013) |
The Indian Express | [7] (Aug 2021) | [8] (Sept 2020) | [9] (Sept 2019) | [10] (Oct 2015) | [11] (Dec 2013) |
Hindustan Times | [12] (Aug 2021) | [13] (Oct 2020) | [14] (July 2019) | [15] (Nov 2016) | [16] (Dec 2010) |
Reuters | [17] (Aug 2021) | [18] (March 2020) | [19] (Sept 2019) | [20] (Oct 2016) | |
BBC | [21] (Aug 2021) | [22] (March 2020) | [23] (Aug 2019) | [24] (Aug 2018) | [25] (Aug 2016) |
Mint | [26] (Aug 2021) | [27] (Nov 2020) | [28] (Aug 2019) | [29] (Aug 2016) | [30] (Aug 2013) |
Business Standard | [31] (Aug 2021) | [32] (March 2020) | [33] (Aug 2019) | [34] (Aug 2016) | [35] (Aug 2013) |
The Times of India | [36] (Aug 2021) | [37] (Aug 2020) | [38] (Aug 2019) | [39] (Aug 2016) | [40] (Oct 2012) |
The Economic Times | [41] (Aug 2021) | [42] (July 2020) | [43] (Sept 2019) | [44] (March 2017) | [45] (Aug 2014) |
The New Indian Express | [46] (Aug 2021) | [47] (Sept 2020) | [48] (Sept 2019) | [49] (July 2016) | [50] (May 2010) |
Associated Press | [51] (Aug 2018) | [52] (Aug 2016) | [53] (Aug 2013) | ||
WaPo | [54] (July 2021) | ||||
The Independent | [55] (July 2021) | ||||
Al Jazeera | [56] (Aug 2021) | ||||
CNN | [57] (July 2021) |
From the list, one can observe that the Indian sources as well as International sources across a reasonably broad timeframe used "Sindhu" and not "Pusarla". -- DaxServer ( talk) 20:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
{{
Given name hatnote}}
to the article.
-- DaxServer (
talk)
12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
By reading this , I want to say that, I think she doesn't have surname.Many South Indian folks , I think don't have surnames. Such as K L Rahul - K. Lokesh Rahul , here Lokesh is his father's name and his given name is Rahul. Many south use their father's name first & then their given name. Newton Euro ( talk) 17:42, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What should be the subsequent usage for P. V. Sindhu?
Requesting comments. — DaxServer ( talk to me) 10:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
In Southeast and South Asia, many people use only a personal name, which may be followed by a patronymic; in such cases, they should be referred to by their personal name." (links in original) In the context of this article, the MOS:GIVENNAME supersedes the MOS:SURNAME, plain and simple. I've compiled a list of ~72 links (~55 in early August 2021), supporting the givenname usage where secondary sources near-unanimously used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. Please see the Discussion below for the table. (Also requestor) — DaxServer ( talk to me) 11:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
which may be followed by a patronymicYou missed "may be" — DaxServer ( talk to me) 22:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
For people well known by one-word names, nicknames, or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally, use the legal surname.She is known by a one-word name "Sindhu", but she often (if not always) uses "Pusarla V. Sindhu" professionally; therefore, we should be using her legal surname. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.
which is unique to Telugu people if I'm not wrongIt is not unique to them; Tamil people, Kananda people, and Malayali people do it all the time as well. Regardless, as for your examples of V. V. Giri, N. V. Ramana, that's exactly my point: they never use their legal surname professionally (unless you can show me otherwise), which is why it has not "ever been in contention". It seems like you're confusing this coincidence with a heuristic that somehow if something "makes sense", it should be done. WP would be far more chaotic if that was the case, seeing as given the RS you've cited, many people are referred to by their given names regardless of whether they're abbreviated or not. I don't understand this relentless effort to complicate things more than what they need to be. And while WP:IAR sounds like a quip, the big caveat there is "for improving or maintaining WP". Devolving to refer to someone by their given name in an article is not an improvement; not even close. Getsnoopy ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
For people well known by one-word names, nicknames, or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally, use the legal surname. Getsnoopy ( talk) 16:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Her father is known as Ramana not Pusarla and her sister Divya not Pusarla and Sindhu is referred as Sindhu not PusarlaI think you fundamentally don't understand the crux of the argument. Everyone has their own given name; Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump, and Donald Trump are all known by their given names to people who know them. That, however, is not the point at all; in any article that refers to them in subsequent uses, they would be referred to as "Trump" (unless it is referring to multiple Trumps, in which case they would be disambiguated with their given names). This is clearly spelled out in MOS:SURNAME as well. Getsnoopy ( talk) 18:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
It makes little sense to use a name that almost no one recognizes.per RegentsPark, it hardly matters whether it is 'sur' or 'given' name if it is the COMMONNAME, which sources clearly indicate it is. Pincrete ( talk) 14:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
that almost no one recognizesYes, except for literally anyone who has seen one of her badminton games where she is credited as "Pusarla V. Sindhu", which is, of course, how she became notable enough to warrant an article on Wikipedia. Or for those who've read practically any article cited as a RS below that starts with "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" or the like. Getsnoopy ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinionson the same page that I linked to? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 17:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I've compiled a short list of ~72 links (~55 in early August 2021), supporting the givenname usage where secondary sources near-unanimously used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. A few articles mentioned the full name, but have fallback to Sindhu for later use in the articles. I've come across some articles where she is only referred once or twice, and in such cases the article noted P.V. Sindhu (with or without spaces and dots) and not other format. I've added archived URLs as not all of them are freely accessible, and could be useful broadly for everyone. Many sources publish syndicated articles from Reuters, ANI, AP, PTI, among others. Let me know if: you've noticed any articles that are duplicated [by syndication] across publications; you'd like to add more to the list; you've noticed any errors. I could search for non-syndicated articles, if you request, or perhaps you could be so kind and comment below, following which I would add to the table (one may update the table AGF). There were couple of articles in NYT which used PV Sindhu. Apart from that, I could not find coverage in NYT, WSJ, The Guardian, but if you could find some, please do so! The articles were chosen at random, mostly the first one [in that particular year, not the search engine result] I could get when I queried in the format "pv sindhu 2019 site:thehindu.com"
Publication | Now | One year ago | Couple of years ago | A while ago | A long time ago | Ages ago |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Hindu | [58] (Aug 2021) | [59] (Aug 2020) | [60] (July 2019) | [61] (Nov 2015) | [62] (Sept 2013) | [63] (Oct 2011) |
The Indian Express | [64] (Aug 2021) | [65] (Sept 2020) | [66] (Sept 2019) | [67] (Oct 2015) | [68] (Dec 2013) | [69] (Dec 2011) |
Hindustan Times | [70] (Aug 2021) | [71] (Oct 2020) | [72] (July 2019) | [73] (Nov 2016) | [74] (Aug 2013) | [75] (Dec 2010) |
Reuters | [76] (Aug 2021) | [77] (March 2020) | [78] (Sept 2019) | [79] (Oct 2016) | ||
BBC | [80] (Aug 2021) | [81] (March 2020) | [82] (Aug 2019) | [83] (Aug 2016) | ||
Mint | [84] (Aug 2021) | [85] (Nov 2020) | [86] (Aug 2019) | [87] (Aug 2016) | [88] (Aug 2013) | [89] (Sept 2012) |
Business Standard | [90] (Aug 2021) | [91] (March 2020) | [92] (Aug 2019) | [93] (Aug 2016) | [94] (Aug 2013) | |
The Times of India | [95] (Aug 2021) | [96] (Aug 2020) | [97] (Aug 2019) | [98] (Aug 2016) | [99] (Jan 2014) | [100] (Oct 2012) |
The Economic Times | [101] (Aug 2021) | [102] (July 2020) | [103] (Sept 2019) | [104] (March 2017) | [105] (Aug 2014) | |
The New Indian Express | [106] (Aug 2021) | [107] (Sept 2020) | [108] (Sept 2019) | [109] (July 2016) | [110] (Aug 2013) | [111] (May 2010) |
Deccan Chronicle | [112] (Aug 2021) | [113] (Oct 2020) | [114] (Aug 2019) | [115] (Dec 2016) | [116] (Dec 2013) | |
First Post | [117] (Aug 2021) | [118] (Aug 2020) | [119] (Dec 2019) | [120] (Aug 2016) | [121] (Aug 2013) | [122] (Oct 2011) |
Associated Press | [123] (Aug 2018) | [124] (Aug 2016) | [125] (Aug 2013) | |||
Washington Post | [126] (July 2021) | |||||
The Independent | [127] (July 2021) | |||||
Al Jazeera | [128] (Aug 2021) | |||||
CNN | [129] (July 2021) |
— DaxServer ( talk to me) 11:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
... she uses her full surname professionally quite consistentlyYou haven't provided any sources for it.
... her full surname, I am guessing you meant Pusarla? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 18:04, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
there's no need to apply so-called "common sense" because there's no sense in it, nor is it common.When I verify the citations and see that they use Sindhu, then I would know that she's commonly known as Sindhu. That seems "common sense" to me. To quote ScottishFinnishRadish, when in doubt, fallback and weigh reliable sources. That seems "common sense" to me. — DaxServer ( talk to me) 22:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
We are not conforming to the subsequent usage in relibale sources, rather confirming with themExcept you seem to be citing them as reasons for your vote, and I've already pointed out many times where they're not reliable for good examples of subsequent usage (e.g., Saina, Rohit, Jagan, etc.). Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
This is clearly not the case with P. V. Sindhu or with K. Srikanth.This only adds to my earlier point that badminton folks probably do not have the flexibility to use initials, unlike other professions. Hence, its better to stick with the common name PV Sindhu. -- Ab207 ( talk) 21:43, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
As said before Sindhu's case is not similar to Saina, Rohit, Jagan etc., hence they should not be our concern.They are our concern if you're citing reliable sources' use of "Sindhu" in subsequent uses as a reason we should be doing the same here, which is what you've done in the your vote above.
This only adds to my earlier point that badminton folks probably do not have the flexibility to use initials, unlike other professions.That is speculative, and is not a strong argument at all for why we should use "P. V. Sindhu" instead. Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure which parts you're referring to are OR.I'm referring to your process of analysis and reaching conclusions without providing citations. You can read more in the WP:OR page. Ironically the Firstpost link you shared uses Sindhu all over the article. The Olympics and BWF seems to capitalise the surname (I'm guessing at a quick glance), I can't say why.
As for perennial sources [...] it says nothing about whether their editorial standards are up to the highest standards. I see many spelling errors on most of the sources...There's a Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard which deals exactly this kind of questions. Perhaps, you could post these links there? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 19:14, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
reaching conclusions without providing citationsI just provided you with many citations that exemplify my point, but nevertheless, I hope you realize that WP:OR has to do with articles, not talk pages.
IronicallyIt's not ironic at all; I was deliberately showing how she uses "Pusarla" in her professional life, but many of the sources you've cited (such as Firstpost) refer to her as "Sindhu" in subsequent use. It was meant to prove my point about the sources you've cited being poor benchmarks for what subsequent usage should look like on WP, which it does.
seems to capitalise the surname...I can't say why.It's because they want to clearly delineate surnames from given names, since players from around the world place their surnames & given names in different places (i.e., Western names have "first names" as given names and "last names" as surnames, while the opposite is true of many Asian names).
Perhaps, you could post these links there?As I've said before, the content/events that these sources report is reliable, which is the whole point of WP:RS in the first place. It was never meant to use RS as way to justify style decisions; that's what MOS is for, and MOS is clear on what to do for subsequent usage when it comes to names as in this case. Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Phenol123 Why did you remove the became youngest qualifier for Padma Shri Special:Diff/1129990482 ? — DaxServer ( t · m · c) 11:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Zoglophie, Ab207, and Fahrurozi.86: I find the recent additions in the "Early life" section to be too detailed. What do you guys suggest? - Fylindfotberserk ( talk) 12:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
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@ Zoglophie: Reo kwon has a valid point. "P. V. Sindhu" has their family name initialized, which means it is little known and seldom used. Even the reputed media houses like BBC, The Hindu, which represent the professional standard of writing, refer her by the given name subsequently. MOS:SURNAME is not a hard and fast rule, and common sense trumps all guidelines. -- Ab207 ( talk) 05:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
That's why we can hardly find any English-language sources which refer to her by surname.Again, this is what I was pointing out; I have a feeling you're confusing what sources' subsequent usage is vs. what WP's subsequent usage policy is. It doesn't matter what other sources are doing with regard to our subsequent usage policy. You argument would be valid if the article made no mention of her last name at all, but just had "P. V. Sindhu" everywhere. Since it introduces her full name as the first word of the article, the question of whether someone would be familiar or not is immaterial; it's right there.
but our average reader knows her by the name P. V. Sindhu. Firstly, this is refuted by the fact that people who know her know her for her badminton, not for other reasons. Saying that she is known professionally as "Pusarla [V.] Sindhu", but that people don't know her as such is illogical. Secondly, the statement is not corroborated by evidence, seeing as even most of the non-sports-related reliable sources refer to her as "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" at first mention. So even going by your logic of reliable sources not mentioning it, the argument doesn't hold up. Thirdly, are you arguing that a person who's landed on an article entitled "P. V. Sindhu" and has the first mention as "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" is going to suddenly get confused when they see "Pusarla" in subsequent mentions? The point isn't that the rules are firm; it's that there's absolutely no reason to break them in this case. MOS:SURNAME is pretty clear: if they have a surname and use it professionally, use it in subsequent mentions; if not, then use their professional/given name. I don't know why you're complicating it unnecessarily. Getsnoopy ( talk) 22:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello! I was linked to this debate on another another discussion about Telugu names. This seems to have descended into a "professional" vs "non professional" name argument, when really it is about cultural differences. Traditional Telugu names are in the order "[family name] [given name] [optional caste name]", with people being referred to by their given or caste name in both Telugu and English. As per MOS:GIVENNAME, there are several cultures where people are referred to by their given name on Wikipedia. Vietnamese is the most similar one in this regard: for example, Ngô Đình Diệm is not referred to by his surname Ngô, but by his given name Diệm as per Vietnamese customs. In a similar context, Tamil names have a similar structure where (a) patronymic(s) is placed first and a given name is added on after that, with the given name being used to refer to that person (ex. E. V. K. Sampath).
As for the jerseys, is it indeed true that in international events her jersey reads Pusarla (2016 Olympics, 2018 Asian Games, 2019 BWF World). However, it could be that they put the surname without realizing that its the given name that is supposed to be used (which seems to have resulted in the ridiculous situation that only "P V" is written on the virtual score widget on RTVE's telecast in the 2015 Denmark Open, even though her jersey had "P V Sindhu" written on it). The 2014 Asian Championships has gotten it right, with Sindhu P V (that is to say, "Sindhu, P. V.") being written on the jersey and "Sindhu" being the name used on the broadcast widget. In addition, Sindhu is referred to as such in interviews (links: 1 2 3) which I think is better evidence. MSG17 ( talk) 17:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Subject is exclusively referred as Sindhu or P V .Sindhu in all almost WP:RS sources not Purshala and even in School and College she was called Sindhu .In this Indian name, the name Pusarla is a patronymic, and the person should be referred to by the given name, Sindhu.Her father's name is also Pusarla Venkata Ramana that is P. V. Ramana and he is refered as Ramana not Pusarla just as Sindhu. Readers almost exclusively know as Sindhu which is WP:COMMONNAME not Purshala. Further in South Indian names like Muthuvel Karunanidhi the subject is referred as Karunandhi not Muthuvel. Sindhu's sister Divya is referred as Divya not Purshala.Her name is also Pusarla Venkata Divya .Both Sindhu and sister Divya are called Sindhu and Divya not Purshala
Sindhu became the first Indian woman to win two individual medals at the Olympics, having added to her silver in Rio 2016but not Pusarla became the first [...]. I think MOS:GIVENNAME (Culture-specific usages) (
In Southeast and South Asia, many people use only a personal name, which may be followed by a patronymic; in such cases, they should be referred to by their personal name.) supersedes the MOS:SURNAME (Subsequent use) here. I think we should follow RS and the MOS:GIVENNAME guideline for the subsequent use and not MOS:SURNAME. (Same reply copied from India noticeboard ( Special:PermaLink/1036935778#P. V. Sindhu). I think we should decide where the discussion must go, and not be duplicated.) -- DaxServer ( talk) 15:26, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Excuse me for breaking threaded replies, but it's needed for the table. I've compiled a short list where reliable sources used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. A few articles mentioned the full name, but have fallback to Sindhu for later use in the articles. I've come across some articles where she is only referred once or twice, and in such cases the article noted P.V. Sindhu and not other format. I've added archived URLs as not all of them are freely accessible, and could be useful broadly for everyone. Let me know if: you've noticed any articles that were syndicated and/or duplicated across publications; you'd like to add more to the list; you've noticed any errors. I could not find coverage in NYT, WSJ, WaPo, The Guardian, but if you could find some, please do so! The articles were chosen at random, mostly the first one I could get when I queried in the format "pv sindhu 2019 site:thehindu.com"
Publication | Now | One year ago | Couple of years ago | A while ago | A long time ago |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Hindu | [2] (Aug 2021) | [3] (Aug 2020) | [4] (July 2019) | [5] (Nov 2015) | [6] (Sept 2013) |
The Indian Express | [7] (Aug 2021) | [8] (Sept 2020) | [9] (Sept 2019) | [10] (Oct 2015) | [11] (Dec 2013) |
Hindustan Times | [12] (Aug 2021) | [13] (Oct 2020) | [14] (July 2019) | [15] (Nov 2016) | [16] (Dec 2010) |
Reuters | [17] (Aug 2021) | [18] (March 2020) | [19] (Sept 2019) | [20] (Oct 2016) | |
BBC | [21] (Aug 2021) | [22] (March 2020) | [23] (Aug 2019) | [24] (Aug 2018) | [25] (Aug 2016) |
Mint | [26] (Aug 2021) | [27] (Nov 2020) | [28] (Aug 2019) | [29] (Aug 2016) | [30] (Aug 2013) |
Business Standard | [31] (Aug 2021) | [32] (March 2020) | [33] (Aug 2019) | [34] (Aug 2016) | [35] (Aug 2013) |
The Times of India | [36] (Aug 2021) | [37] (Aug 2020) | [38] (Aug 2019) | [39] (Aug 2016) | [40] (Oct 2012) |
The Economic Times | [41] (Aug 2021) | [42] (July 2020) | [43] (Sept 2019) | [44] (March 2017) | [45] (Aug 2014) |
The New Indian Express | [46] (Aug 2021) | [47] (Sept 2020) | [48] (Sept 2019) | [49] (July 2016) | [50] (May 2010) |
Associated Press | [51] (Aug 2018) | [52] (Aug 2016) | [53] (Aug 2013) | ||
WaPo | [54] (July 2021) | ||||
The Independent | [55] (July 2021) | ||||
Al Jazeera | [56] (Aug 2021) | ||||
CNN | [57] (July 2021) |
From the list, one can observe that the Indian sources as well as International sources across a reasonably broad timeframe used "Sindhu" and not "Pusarla". -- DaxServer ( talk) 20:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
{{
Given name hatnote}}
to the article.
-- DaxServer (
talk)
12:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
By reading this , I want to say that, I think she doesn't have surname.Many South Indian folks , I think don't have surnames. Such as K L Rahul - K. Lokesh Rahul , here Lokesh is his father's name and his given name is Rahul. Many south use their father's name first & then their given name. Newton Euro ( talk) 17:42, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What should be the subsequent usage for P. V. Sindhu?
Requesting comments. — DaxServer ( talk to me) 10:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
In Southeast and South Asia, many people use only a personal name, which may be followed by a patronymic; in such cases, they should be referred to by their personal name." (links in original) In the context of this article, the MOS:GIVENNAME supersedes the MOS:SURNAME, plain and simple. I've compiled a list of ~72 links (~55 in early August 2021), supporting the givenname usage where secondary sources near-unanimously used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. Please see the Discussion below for the table. (Also requestor) — DaxServer ( talk to me) 11:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
which may be followed by a patronymicYou missed "may be" — DaxServer ( talk to me) 22:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
For people well known by one-word names, nicknames, or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally, use the legal surname.She is known by a one-word name "Sindhu", but she often (if not always) uses "Pusarla V. Sindhu" professionally; therefore, we should be using her legal surname. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.
which is unique to Telugu people if I'm not wrongIt is not unique to them; Tamil people, Kananda people, and Malayali people do it all the time as well. Regardless, as for your examples of V. V. Giri, N. V. Ramana, that's exactly my point: they never use their legal surname professionally (unless you can show me otherwise), which is why it has not "ever been in contention". It seems like you're confusing this coincidence with a heuristic that somehow if something "makes sense", it should be done. WP would be far more chaotic if that was the case, seeing as given the RS you've cited, many people are referred to by their given names regardless of whether they're abbreviated or not. I don't understand this relentless effort to complicate things more than what they need to be. And while WP:IAR sounds like a quip, the big caveat there is "for improving or maintaining WP". Devolving to refer to someone by their given name in an article is not an improvement; not even close. Getsnoopy ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
For people well known by one-word names, nicknames, or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally, use the legal surname. Getsnoopy ( talk) 16:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Her father is known as Ramana not Pusarla and her sister Divya not Pusarla and Sindhu is referred as Sindhu not PusarlaI think you fundamentally don't understand the crux of the argument. Everyone has their own given name; Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump, and Donald Trump are all known by their given names to people who know them. That, however, is not the point at all; in any article that refers to them in subsequent uses, they would be referred to as "Trump" (unless it is referring to multiple Trumps, in which case they would be disambiguated with their given names). This is clearly spelled out in MOS:SURNAME as well. Getsnoopy ( talk) 18:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
It makes little sense to use a name that almost no one recognizes.per RegentsPark, it hardly matters whether it is 'sur' or 'given' name if it is the COMMONNAME, which sources clearly indicate it is. Pincrete ( talk) 14:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
that almost no one recognizesYes, except for literally anyone who has seen one of her badminton games where she is credited as "Pusarla V. Sindhu", which is, of course, how she became notable enough to warrant an article on Wikipedia. Or for those who've read practically any article cited as a RS below that starts with "Pusarla Venkata Sindhu" or the like. Getsnoopy ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinionson the same page that I linked to? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 17:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I've compiled a short list of ~72 links (~55 in early August 2021), supporting the givenname usage where secondary sources near-unanimously used "Sindhu" for subsequent usage. A few articles mentioned the full name, but have fallback to Sindhu for later use in the articles. I've come across some articles where she is only referred once or twice, and in such cases the article noted P.V. Sindhu (with or without spaces and dots) and not other format. I've added archived URLs as not all of them are freely accessible, and could be useful broadly for everyone. Many sources publish syndicated articles from Reuters, ANI, AP, PTI, among others. Let me know if: you've noticed any articles that are duplicated [by syndication] across publications; you'd like to add more to the list; you've noticed any errors. I could search for non-syndicated articles, if you request, or perhaps you could be so kind and comment below, following which I would add to the table (one may update the table AGF). There were couple of articles in NYT which used PV Sindhu. Apart from that, I could not find coverage in NYT, WSJ, The Guardian, but if you could find some, please do so! The articles were chosen at random, mostly the first one [in that particular year, not the search engine result] I could get when I queried in the format "pv sindhu 2019 site:thehindu.com"
Publication | Now | One year ago | Couple of years ago | A while ago | A long time ago | Ages ago |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Hindu | [58] (Aug 2021) | [59] (Aug 2020) | [60] (July 2019) | [61] (Nov 2015) | [62] (Sept 2013) | [63] (Oct 2011) |
The Indian Express | [64] (Aug 2021) | [65] (Sept 2020) | [66] (Sept 2019) | [67] (Oct 2015) | [68] (Dec 2013) | [69] (Dec 2011) |
Hindustan Times | [70] (Aug 2021) | [71] (Oct 2020) | [72] (July 2019) | [73] (Nov 2016) | [74] (Aug 2013) | [75] (Dec 2010) |
Reuters | [76] (Aug 2021) | [77] (March 2020) | [78] (Sept 2019) | [79] (Oct 2016) | ||
BBC | [80] (Aug 2021) | [81] (March 2020) | [82] (Aug 2019) | [83] (Aug 2016) | ||
Mint | [84] (Aug 2021) | [85] (Nov 2020) | [86] (Aug 2019) | [87] (Aug 2016) | [88] (Aug 2013) | [89] (Sept 2012) |
Business Standard | [90] (Aug 2021) | [91] (March 2020) | [92] (Aug 2019) | [93] (Aug 2016) | [94] (Aug 2013) | |
The Times of India | [95] (Aug 2021) | [96] (Aug 2020) | [97] (Aug 2019) | [98] (Aug 2016) | [99] (Jan 2014) | [100] (Oct 2012) |
The Economic Times | [101] (Aug 2021) | [102] (July 2020) | [103] (Sept 2019) | [104] (March 2017) | [105] (Aug 2014) | |
The New Indian Express | [106] (Aug 2021) | [107] (Sept 2020) | [108] (Sept 2019) | [109] (July 2016) | [110] (Aug 2013) | [111] (May 2010) |
Deccan Chronicle | [112] (Aug 2021) | [113] (Oct 2020) | [114] (Aug 2019) | [115] (Dec 2016) | [116] (Dec 2013) | |
First Post | [117] (Aug 2021) | [118] (Aug 2020) | [119] (Dec 2019) | [120] (Aug 2016) | [121] (Aug 2013) | [122] (Oct 2011) |
Associated Press | [123] (Aug 2018) | [124] (Aug 2016) | [125] (Aug 2013) | |||
Washington Post | [126] (July 2021) | |||||
The Independent | [127] (July 2021) | |||||
Al Jazeera | [128] (Aug 2021) | |||||
CNN | [129] (July 2021) |
— DaxServer ( talk to me) 11:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
... she uses her full surname professionally quite consistentlyYou haven't provided any sources for it.
... her full surname, I am guessing you meant Pusarla? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 18:04, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
there's no need to apply so-called "common sense" because there's no sense in it, nor is it common.When I verify the citations and see that they use Sindhu, then I would know that she's commonly known as Sindhu. That seems "common sense" to me. To quote ScottishFinnishRadish, when in doubt, fallback and weigh reliable sources. That seems "common sense" to me. — DaxServer ( talk to me) 22:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
We are not conforming to the subsequent usage in relibale sources, rather confirming with themExcept you seem to be citing them as reasons for your vote, and I've already pointed out many times where they're not reliable for good examples of subsequent usage (e.g., Saina, Rohit, Jagan, etc.). Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
This is clearly not the case with P. V. Sindhu or with K. Srikanth.This only adds to my earlier point that badminton folks probably do not have the flexibility to use initials, unlike other professions. Hence, its better to stick with the common name PV Sindhu. -- Ab207 ( talk) 21:43, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
As said before Sindhu's case is not similar to Saina, Rohit, Jagan etc., hence they should not be our concern.They are our concern if you're citing reliable sources' use of "Sindhu" in subsequent uses as a reason we should be doing the same here, which is what you've done in the your vote above.
This only adds to my earlier point that badminton folks probably do not have the flexibility to use initials, unlike other professions.That is speculative, and is not a strong argument at all for why we should use "P. V. Sindhu" instead. Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure which parts you're referring to are OR.I'm referring to your process of analysis and reaching conclusions without providing citations. You can read more in the WP:OR page. Ironically the Firstpost link you shared uses Sindhu all over the article. The Olympics and BWF seems to capitalise the surname (I'm guessing at a quick glance), I can't say why.
As for perennial sources [...] it says nothing about whether their editorial standards are up to the highest standards. I see many spelling errors on most of the sources...There's a Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard which deals exactly this kind of questions. Perhaps, you could post these links there? — DaxServer ( talk to me) 19:14, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
reaching conclusions without providing citationsI just provided you with many citations that exemplify my point, but nevertheless, I hope you realize that WP:OR has to do with articles, not talk pages.
IronicallyIt's not ironic at all; I was deliberately showing how she uses "Pusarla" in her professional life, but many of the sources you've cited (such as Firstpost) refer to her as "Sindhu" in subsequent use. It was meant to prove my point about the sources you've cited being poor benchmarks for what subsequent usage should look like on WP, which it does.
seems to capitalise the surname...I can't say why.It's because they want to clearly delineate surnames from given names, since players from around the world place their surnames & given names in different places (i.e., Western names have "first names" as given names and "last names" as surnames, while the opposite is true of many Asian names).
Perhaps, you could post these links there?As I've said before, the content/events that these sources report is reliable, which is the whole point of WP:RS in the first place. It was never meant to use RS as way to justify style decisions; that's what MOS is for, and MOS is clear on what to do for subsequent usage when it comes to names as in this case. Getsnoopy ( talk) 19:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Phenol123 Why did you remove the became youngest qualifier for Padma Shri Special:Diff/1129990482 ? — DaxServer ( t · m · c) 11:23, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Zoglophie, Ab207, and Fahrurozi.86: I find the recent additions in the "Early life" section to be too detailed. What do you guys suggest? - Fylindfotberserk ( talk) 12:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)