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An anon today added approximate birth and death dates (1160-1240). We really know nothing about Pérotin's life, unless there is some recent research of which I'm not aware; we know he was an adult around 1197-1200, when he wrote his four-voice organum, and he probably collaborated with Philip the Chancellor, which couldn't have been before 1220, but beyond that nothing; if someone has a source giving these dates, or even better some justifaction for them, could you please post here? Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 18:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the statement "...and indeed it can be argued that Pérotin himself was a proto-minimalist." On the contrary, Pérotin's polyphonic structures were the most complex pieces of music composed up to that point in the history. If minimalism implies a deliberate paring-down or reduction of musical structure, then in an age when most music was still plainchant these compositions were ""maximal"", not minimal. On the other hand, it's accurate to say that some minimalist composers of the 20th century drew inspiration from Pérotin's work. InnocuousPseudonym September 21, 2006
John of Salisbury: It really should be noted that the excerpt is from Policraticus, written around 1160. However, as we all know, Pérotin was active much later, around 1200. What John heard was probably more reminiscent of the St. Martial repertory, which was far more improvisational and didn't adhere to any strict rhythmic system. So, though what he's likely describing is an important predecessor of the Notre Dame School, it lacks a fundamental, revolutionary characteristic of that repertoire: modal rhythm. If only there were a comparably detailed eyewitness account from c.1200... Epn10 ( talk) 03:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Instead of a giant "needs more footnotes" banner at the top of the article, can we please have an indication of exactly which statements are being challenged and need footnotes? Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 13:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure Steve Reich belongs in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renfield ( talk • contribs) 21:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The first footnoted fact claims that Anonymous IV referred to Pérotin as "Magister Petronius" ("Pérotin the Master").
Should it not be "Magister Perotinus" instead of "Magister Petronius"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myers6609 ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, I'm having a hard time sourcing this. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Myers6609 (
talk •
contribs) 20:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Page currently under revision. For earlier version see see here -- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 16:00, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
This passage was added in 2013, without citing a source. While interesting it is mothballed here till a source can be identified. Editor notified.-- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 22:57, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
An example of the dual styles can be found in his organum duplum on Benedicamus Domino. [1] [2] The chant melody for the second-tone Benedicamus is mostly syllabic with only three simple ligatures (more than one note on a syllable).
This part will be sung in extended continuous sounding syllables, laying an organ-point or harmonic basis for the duplum or vox organalis, a new florid line which will have many notes to the one of the tenor. Usually a single syllable in the chant comes back as a long note in the tenor, its length is governed by the development of the upper voice as it works toward a modulation to the next tone of the tenor. In this fashion, Be....ne..di...ca...mu....s is stretched out syllable per syllable. The next section, Domino, starts with a long melisma on 'Do' and is set in discantus style, clarification needed where both the tenor and organal voice proceed in one of the rhythmic modes. In organum purum, the tenor tends to be static a lot on a few tones; in discantus style it has its fair share of the modal rhythms. At the end, the O of 'Domino' the tenor comes to rest on the tonic note, while the upper voice makes its final runs toward the tonic or the octave. At that point the organum is finished, and the 'Deo Gratias' will be sung choraliter. clarification needed Organa exist for two to four voices. That for two voices, organum duplum, has the most freedom in performance, as it will invariably have many sections of organum purum, where the upper voice is rhapsodic and not bound by strict modal rhythm. In three- or four-part organa all the upper voices need to be organized rhythmically, even over a long static tenor.
There is another group of new compositions on new texts, the conductus, which exist in a variety of forms: monophonic strophic songs and simple or complex conductus for two to four voices.
The image used at the top of this page is not well sourced but is widely used to illustrate recordings of Perotin's music. -- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 21:50, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I wish this were better captioned; it looks like the opening of Alleluia Nativitas gloriosae, one of several
Alleluia verses attributed to Pérotin.
Sparafucil (
talk) 23:14, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Just came across a version with the E spelt out, in Montpellier f. 9. Sparafucil ( talk) 01:28, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
…there have been speculative attempts to identify the composer with members of the Notre Dame administration. [a] [5] The two candidates that have been suggested as possible identities for Perotinus are the theologian Petrus Cantor (died 1197) and the Petrus who was Succentor [6] [3] [7] of Notre Dame from at least 1207 until about 1238. Petrus Succentor has been suggested as more probable, in part on chronological grounds, and partly because of the succentor's role in overseeing the celebration of the liturgy in the cathedral [4] (whose choir was dedicated 1182), but other authors have dismissed this as improbable. [7] Comment: How does Tischler in 1950 express disagreement with Roesner 2001, unless this is backwards? Also, Tischler seems to be cited in _favor_ of the Succentor in previous text: "For instance he has been described as a sub-chanter there, [6] and associated with a Petrus Succentor, [3] [7] but all evidence is circumstantial at best."
This paragraph is still confusing, with Tischler cited for both the pro and con positions. Does he entertain the idea before "dismissing" it, or is he taking issue with Jenny, the only earlier reference? Is Petrus Cantor uncited? Sparafucil ( talk) 02:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
References
I have serious concerns over the lead image. MOS:LEADIMAGE says it should "only illustrate the topic specifically" and "should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic" – this fails both. There's no connection between Pérotin to Cantigas de Santa Maria other than both being during the Middle Ages... It seems extremely misleading, as most people will see the image, assume it of Perotin and think nothing of it (without looking at the note or reading the captain). I don't think the rationale of "has been used to illustrate recordings of Pérotin's music" overturns any of these issues. I would suggest it's removal, there's no need to have a lead image if a suitable one is unavailable, tons of medieval figures don't have one. If we do put a lead image, I would think moving up one of the scores would be far more appropriate. Aza24 ( talk) 03:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This article is, of course, admirably researched and written, but the layout seems less than ideal, and a bit confusing. I've split the ambigious "Work" section into "Historical context" and "Music" but I'm thinking it should look something like this:
The sources could perhaps be before the historical context section... - Aza24 ( talk) 03:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Organa were being sung until the early decades of the 14th century - Jacobus of Liège is among the sources for this.
217.254.40.190 (
talk) 16:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
An anon today added approximate birth and death dates (1160-1240). We really know nothing about Pérotin's life, unless there is some recent research of which I'm not aware; we know he was an adult around 1197-1200, when he wrote his four-voice organum, and he probably collaborated with Philip the Chancellor, which couldn't have been before 1220, but beyond that nothing; if someone has a source giving these dates, or even better some justifaction for them, could you please post here? Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 18:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the statement "...and indeed it can be argued that Pérotin himself was a proto-minimalist." On the contrary, Pérotin's polyphonic structures were the most complex pieces of music composed up to that point in the history. If minimalism implies a deliberate paring-down or reduction of musical structure, then in an age when most music was still plainchant these compositions were ""maximal"", not minimal. On the other hand, it's accurate to say that some minimalist composers of the 20th century drew inspiration from Pérotin's work. InnocuousPseudonym September 21, 2006
John of Salisbury: It really should be noted that the excerpt is from Policraticus, written around 1160. However, as we all know, Pérotin was active much later, around 1200. What John heard was probably more reminiscent of the St. Martial repertory, which was far more improvisational and didn't adhere to any strict rhythmic system. So, though what he's likely describing is an important predecessor of the Notre Dame School, it lacks a fundamental, revolutionary characteristic of that repertoire: modal rhythm. If only there were a comparably detailed eyewitness account from c.1200... Epn10 ( talk) 03:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Instead of a giant "needs more footnotes" banner at the top of the article, can we please have an indication of exactly which statements are being challenged and need footnotes? Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 13:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure Steve Reich belongs in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renfield ( talk • contribs) 21:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The first footnoted fact claims that Anonymous IV referred to Pérotin as "Magister Petronius" ("Pérotin the Master").
Should it not be "Magister Perotinus" instead of "Magister Petronius"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myers6609 ( talk • contribs) 20:53, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, I'm having a hard time sourcing this. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Myers6609 (
talk •
contribs) 20:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Page currently under revision. For earlier version see see here -- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 16:00, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
This passage was added in 2013, without citing a source. While interesting it is mothballed here till a source can be identified. Editor notified.-- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 22:57, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
An example of the dual styles can be found in his organum duplum on Benedicamus Domino. [1] [2] The chant melody for the second-tone Benedicamus is mostly syllabic with only three simple ligatures (more than one note on a syllable).
This part will be sung in extended continuous sounding syllables, laying an organ-point or harmonic basis for the duplum or vox organalis, a new florid line which will have many notes to the one of the tenor. Usually a single syllable in the chant comes back as a long note in the tenor, its length is governed by the development of the upper voice as it works toward a modulation to the next tone of the tenor. In this fashion, Be....ne..di...ca...mu....s is stretched out syllable per syllable. The next section, Domino, starts with a long melisma on 'Do' and is set in discantus style, clarification needed where both the tenor and organal voice proceed in one of the rhythmic modes. In organum purum, the tenor tends to be static a lot on a few tones; in discantus style it has its fair share of the modal rhythms. At the end, the O of 'Domino' the tenor comes to rest on the tonic note, while the upper voice makes its final runs toward the tonic or the octave. At that point the organum is finished, and the 'Deo Gratias' will be sung choraliter. clarification needed Organa exist for two to four voices. That for two voices, organum duplum, has the most freedom in performance, as it will invariably have many sections of organum purum, where the upper voice is rhapsodic and not bound by strict modal rhythm. In three- or four-part organa all the upper voices need to be organized rhythmically, even over a long static tenor.
There is another group of new compositions on new texts, the conductus, which exist in a variety of forms: monophonic strophic songs and simple or complex conductus for two to four voices.
The image used at the top of this page is not well sourced but is widely used to illustrate recordings of Perotin's music. -- Michael Goodyear ✐ ✉ 21:50, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I wish this were better captioned; it looks like the opening of Alleluia Nativitas gloriosae, one of several
Alleluia verses attributed to Pérotin.
Sparafucil (
talk) 23:14, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Just came across a version with the E spelt out, in Montpellier f. 9. Sparafucil ( talk) 01:28, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
…there have been speculative attempts to identify the composer with members of the Notre Dame administration. [a] [5] The two candidates that have been suggested as possible identities for Perotinus are the theologian Petrus Cantor (died 1197) and the Petrus who was Succentor [6] [3] [7] of Notre Dame from at least 1207 until about 1238. Petrus Succentor has been suggested as more probable, in part on chronological grounds, and partly because of the succentor's role in overseeing the celebration of the liturgy in the cathedral [4] (whose choir was dedicated 1182), but other authors have dismissed this as improbable. [7] Comment: How does Tischler in 1950 express disagreement with Roesner 2001, unless this is backwards? Also, Tischler seems to be cited in _favor_ of the Succentor in previous text: "For instance he has been described as a sub-chanter there, [6] and associated with a Petrus Succentor, [3] [7] but all evidence is circumstantial at best."
This paragraph is still confusing, with Tischler cited for both the pro and con positions. Does he entertain the idea before "dismissing" it, or is he taking issue with Jenny, the only earlier reference? Is Petrus Cantor uncited? Sparafucil ( talk) 02:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
References
I have serious concerns over the lead image. MOS:LEADIMAGE says it should "only illustrate the topic specifically" and "should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic" – this fails both. There's no connection between Pérotin to Cantigas de Santa Maria other than both being during the Middle Ages... It seems extremely misleading, as most people will see the image, assume it of Perotin and think nothing of it (without looking at the note or reading the captain). I don't think the rationale of "has been used to illustrate recordings of Pérotin's music" overturns any of these issues. I would suggest it's removal, there's no need to have a lead image if a suitable one is unavailable, tons of medieval figures don't have one. If we do put a lead image, I would think moving up one of the scores would be far more appropriate. Aza24 ( talk) 03:31, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This article is, of course, admirably researched and written, but the layout seems less than ideal, and a bit confusing. I've split the ambigious "Work" section into "Historical context" and "Music" but I'm thinking it should look something like this:
The sources could perhaps be before the historical context section... - Aza24 ( talk) 03:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Organa were being sung until the early decades of the 14th century - Jacobus of Liège is among the sources for this.
217.254.40.190 (
talk) 16:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).