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Archive 1 |
"Chamber debate... tends to be less formalised (even if more formal clarification needed) than competitive debates"
Does this really need a clarification? It seems good, well-written English to me and quite clear. Formalised refers to rules and procedures, formal to social custom. The words suggest that meaning of themselves. Stuart midgley ( talk)
Why is the Debates Selection Committee the only committee that is not listed in the governance section? It is listed in the Standing Orders as a Committee of the Union, and indeed, its Chairman now attends Standing Committee, with a section for his business, on the same basis as the CCC and RO, i.e. without a vote...
The CCC is a member of Standing Committee, which the CDSC is not, so it really isn't the same basis. Furthermore, DSC does not play any role in the governance of the Society; it selects individual members to represent us at external debating competitions. This is a fairly modern offshoot of the Society, and is essentially a group of those members interested in debating self regulating their activities (admittedly with constant infighting).
This is the ugliest image layout I have ever seen! Mark Richards 22:27, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
An anon user cut Lord Dufferin from the list of past presidents. I have rolled back this edit. Please provide the reason on the talk page if you wish to make such a redaction. Fawcett5 00:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
That was me. Lord Dufferin may be a past president but he's hardly famous. His greatest achievement? Becoming a mediocre Viceroy of India. I'm sorry, you may have a particular interest in his life or his times or whatever, but how can you possibly argue that he's as worthy of inclusion as William Hague. He's not famous and, given the list of past presidents the Union boasts, he's decidedly second-rate. To quote the ex-President, New College, he's distinctly budget. 82.44.213.192 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
It certainly seems that the above anon editors have a temporally foreshortened and geographically circumscribed notion of who and what is historically significant — what goes on in the "colonies" may well be beneath your notice, but I never suggested that Dufferin replace Hague, they can both stay here. It was someoneelse who originally replaced Dufferin with Hague. And seriously, Hague's most impressive accomplishment was to more-or-less learn to sing the Welsh national anthem. Sheesh. Fawcett5 14:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I am now in favour of eliminating the list of well-known presidents altogether, since it has become clear that any such listing is going to be hopelessly POV-dependent. I'm in favour of creating a separate list page of the presidents in chronological order to accompany the category. Fawcett5 16:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Presumably the British politician not the American comedian? How modest of him not to mention his Union presidencey on his website. Flapdragon 16:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I note Mike Dowling, who google informs me is the current Treasurer, made it into the article and swiftly out again. I should make it clear, should anyone look at the article history and think otherwise, that I am not he! Dowlingm 04:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I added some information to the Debating section to explain voting and how it's done. I did this mostly to explain the concept of an "Oxford Union" debate to Americans, who despite their education probably equate debating with the nonsense seen in election years. I freely confess that I have never been to Oxford nor attended a Public Business Meeting; I get my information from an American colleague who studied at Oxford, belonged to the Union, and participated in both formal and less formal debating. Jmalin 18:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The names of Officers will now be included on the Oxford Union page, which seems entirely sensible and ought to have been instigated a long time ago. Previous attempts to stop this appear motivated by some in-fighting amongst candidates. (unsigned)
I beg to differ - In-fighting aside, looking at the pages of other societies of similar nature (e.g. Cambridge Union), officer names are not to be found anywhere. It is highly unlikely that any of the current officers are notable in any way at this point in their life and as such that information is irrelevant. (unsigned)
Totally agree with the above comment. Wikipedia is NOT a directory and the content of articles should only consist of encyclopedic content designed for a general audience. Current officers are not in any way notable enough to warrant a specific mention. A solid rule of thumb that certainly applies here is that if they are not notable enough to get their own independent biographical article in Wikipedia then they're not notable enough to deserve specific mention by name. (e.g. if nobody knows who they are, apart from internally within this organization, then talking about them in the article adds nothing content wise for Wikipedia's target audience... everyone else). This sort of information about current officers is best kept on the organization's own site. If people want to know that sort of thing, they'll know to look for it on that site. Regardless of any 'in-fighting' that may have occurred within this organization, previously removing the names was the correct thing to do. Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(Update) The names have again been added to this article without explanation. It would be pertinent for anyone who feels such temporary, trivial and non-notable information belongs in this organization's article to review the following guidelines: What Wikipedia is not WP:NOT (e.g. not a place to list temporary details regarding an organization), What constitutes notability WP:NOTE (e.g. these people are not notable outside of this organization). If these individuals subsequently become famous then it may be relevent to mention their involvement with this organization, but at the moment it would appear that this is just simple case of vanity posting WP:COI. (AC) Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
There's no need for the heated rhetoric... it's a perfectly valid issue and deserves attention and discussion. The comment from Will2719 when adding the information to this page by saying it's relevent "NOW" is exactly the point. The above comments about reminding people to review the consensus guidelines are directly to the point and one of the things highlighted in the notability page is that "Notability is not temporary." The fact that these positions exist is not temporary, but the current office holders are. As such, there is no point in listing such temporary and non-notable information. What exactly do people propose the names of individuals in these temporary posts adds for the general reader given that nobody knows, or cares, who they are? Information for current members of the organization is for the organization's own website. Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Conspiracy researcher David Icke has announced that he is speaking to the Oxford Union in November. I'm leaving it to others to consider this for inclusion in the present article. __ meco 21:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This portion needs to be re-written and edited. It seems to fall into notion that every minute detail of that evening needs to be recounted in the vein of "they did this and others replied thus" mode. It is reminiscent of a Peter and Jane book. 84.12.22.235 ( talk) 20:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I honestly couldn't care less whether or not next term's officers are included. An editor called Legrasp seems convinced that the Hilary officers should be in the article; someone else seems to think this term's should be kept. Since Michaelmas term is over, but Hilary hasn't yet begun, there's no clear way to answer it. I hope the Union page doesn't fall prey to the hackery that the Union has. In any event, whichever version is currently favoured, can we please remember to change the 'Officers of the Union, X Term Y' accurate? ghostmoon EVP hauntings 21:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is largely to do with the fact that there are currently appeals about an election tribunal - this has meant that officially the set of officers for next term (Hilary) cannot take up their positions, and that the RO has been acting as President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Product1517 ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody also keeps adding in 'Presidential advisor' into the table, which is not an officership and not elected and therefore not suitable for the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Budgie89 ( talk • contribs) 11:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This page has been protected from editing. This edit [1] keeps being inserted and removed. Discuss it on this page and reach a resolution. Editors who keep inserting and removing material are edit warring and may be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Edit warring. Ty 13:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I am one of the people who has been removing the 'Presidential advisor' from the table of officers. This is because it is not an officership but an appointed position. It is certainly not senior to Librarian. Rule 13(a) states: "The Junior Officers of the Society shall be the President, the President-Elect, the Librarian, the Treasurer, the Treasurer-Elect, the Secretary and the Steward. The Senior Officers shall be the Senior Librarian and the Senior Treasurer." [1] . If we were to include all appointed officials in this table then the Press Officer, Guest Liason Officers, Web Officers etc. would also appear. Appointed officials are not even members of Standing Committee! Budgie89 ( talk) 16:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
The person who keeps adding in 'Presidential Advisor' has done so again on February 2nd. Is there a way to block this from happening? Though he is now listed on the Union's website, he is only an "appointed official" and not, therefore, an Officer. The Officers are listed specifically as President, Librarian, Treasurer, Secretary, Junior Steward, President-elect and Treasurer-elect. There are several appointed officials, and none of these are listed on Wikipedia, nor are they elected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.46.213 ( talk) 12:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
There is broad general agreement that this 'advisor' post is most certainly not an officership and does not belong on the page. The most recent revert to incorrectly include the 'Advisor' post as an 'officer' was made with a public IP address. That IP address can be traced back to mr243.qeh.ox.ac.uk or the Queen Elizabeth House (Department of International Development) where Irakli Rogava, the person in question, is a student. It's impossible to prove, but the evidence strongly suggests that this is a case of vanity posting by the individual in question. It would appear the famed Union hack's desperate desire for limelight is as alive as ever. -- Starr 1990 ( talk) 00:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
References
Could we revisit this issue. Current officers are not notable. Lists should be lists of notable people. Other similar articles, such as those in the "See also" sections" do not list officers. The names are, I presume, listed on the Oxford Union's own web page. Can we delete this list. I have a mild conflict of interest as a Life Member of the Union but have not been in the place for over 50 years. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The unsourced claim that Cristina Fernández de Kirchner has been a speaker has been repeatedly removed. The only source I have found for this is that she hass been invited to speak at a future date http://en.mercopress.com/2017/04/27/cristina-fernandez-invited-to-give-a-conference-at-oxford-university . Unless there is a reliable source saying that she has already spoken at Oxford Union she does not belong in the article. If and when she speaks she may be added to the list. Meters ( talk) 18:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
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Just a quick note that I'm editing this article while also (along with several hundred thousand other people) being a lifetime member of the organisation. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 21:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I've holding back from editing the article directly in case of an appearance of COI, but I strongly recommend changes to this section because:
I don't object to there being a section on this controversy, but it doesn't merit those two long paragraphs: it needs radically cutting down. MartinPoulter ( talk) 20:28, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"Chamber debate... tends to be less formalised (even if more formal clarification needed) than competitive debates"
Does this really need a clarification? It seems good, well-written English to me and quite clear. Formalised refers to rules and procedures, formal to social custom. The words suggest that meaning of themselves. Stuart midgley ( talk)
Why is the Debates Selection Committee the only committee that is not listed in the governance section? It is listed in the Standing Orders as a Committee of the Union, and indeed, its Chairman now attends Standing Committee, with a section for his business, on the same basis as the CCC and RO, i.e. without a vote...
The CCC is a member of Standing Committee, which the CDSC is not, so it really isn't the same basis. Furthermore, DSC does not play any role in the governance of the Society; it selects individual members to represent us at external debating competitions. This is a fairly modern offshoot of the Society, and is essentially a group of those members interested in debating self regulating their activities (admittedly with constant infighting).
This is the ugliest image layout I have ever seen! Mark Richards 22:27, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
An anon user cut Lord Dufferin from the list of past presidents. I have rolled back this edit. Please provide the reason on the talk page if you wish to make such a redaction. Fawcett5 00:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
That was me. Lord Dufferin may be a past president but he's hardly famous. His greatest achievement? Becoming a mediocre Viceroy of India. I'm sorry, you may have a particular interest in his life or his times or whatever, but how can you possibly argue that he's as worthy of inclusion as William Hague. He's not famous and, given the list of past presidents the Union boasts, he's decidedly second-rate. To quote the ex-President, New College, he's distinctly budget. 82.44.213.192 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
It certainly seems that the above anon editors have a temporally foreshortened and geographically circumscribed notion of who and what is historically significant — what goes on in the "colonies" may well be beneath your notice, but I never suggested that Dufferin replace Hague, they can both stay here. It was someoneelse who originally replaced Dufferin with Hague. And seriously, Hague's most impressive accomplishment was to more-or-less learn to sing the Welsh national anthem. Sheesh. Fawcett5 14:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I am now in favour of eliminating the list of well-known presidents altogether, since it has become clear that any such listing is going to be hopelessly POV-dependent. I'm in favour of creating a separate list page of the presidents in chronological order to accompany the category. Fawcett5 16:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Presumably the British politician not the American comedian? How modest of him not to mention his Union presidencey on his website. Flapdragon 16:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I note Mike Dowling, who google informs me is the current Treasurer, made it into the article and swiftly out again. I should make it clear, should anyone look at the article history and think otherwise, that I am not he! Dowlingm 04:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I added some information to the Debating section to explain voting and how it's done. I did this mostly to explain the concept of an "Oxford Union" debate to Americans, who despite their education probably equate debating with the nonsense seen in election years. I freely confess that I have never been to Oxford nor attended a Public Business Meeting; I get my information from an American colleague who studied at Oxford, belonged to the Union, and participated in both formal and less formal debating. Jmalin 18:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The names of Officers will now be included on the Oxford Union page, which seems entirely sensible and ought to have been instigated a long time ago. Previous attempts to stop this appear motivated by some in-fighting amongst candidates. (unsigned)
I beg to differ - In-fighting aside, looking at the pages of other societies of similar nature (e.g. Cambridge Union), officer names are not to be found anywhere. It is highly unlikely that any of the current officers are notable in any way at this point in their life and as such that information is irrelevant. (unsigned)
Totally agree with the above comment. Wikipedia is NOT a directory and the content of articles should only consist of encyclopedic content designed for a general audience. Current officers are not in any way notable enough to warrant a specific mention. A solid rule of thumb that certainly applies here is that if they are not notable enough to get their own independent biographical article in Wikipedia then they're not notable enough to deserve specific mention by name. (e.g. if nobody knows who they are, apart from internally within this organization, then talking about them in the article adds nothing content wise for Wikipedia's target audience... everyone else). This sort of information about current officers is best kept on the organization's own site. If people want to know that sort of thing, they'll know to look for it on that site. Regardless of any 'in-fighting' that may have occurred within this organization, previously removing the names was the correct thing to do. Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
(Update) The names have again been added to this article without explanation. It would be pertinent for anyone who feels such temporary, trivial and non-notable information belongs in this organization's article to review the following guidelines: What Wikipedia is not WP:NOT (e.g. not a place to list temporary details regarding an organization), What constitutes notability WP:NOTE (e.g. these people are not notable outside of this organization). If these individuals subsequently become famous then it may be relevent to mention their involvement with this organization, but at the moment it would appear that this is just simple case of vanity posting WP:COI. (AC) Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
There's no need for the heated rhetoric... it's a perfectly valid issue and deserves attention and discussion. The comment from Will2719 when adding the information to this page by saying it's relevent "NOW" is exactly the point. The above comments about reminding people to review the consensus guidelines are directly to the point and one of the things highlighted in the notability page is that "Notability is not temporary." The fact that these positions exist is not temporary, but the current office holders are. As such, there is no point in listing such temporary and non-notable information. What exactly do people propose the names of individuals in these temporary posts adds for the general reader given that nobody knows, or cares, who they are? Information for current members of the organization is for the organization's own website. Ac moet 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Conspiracy researcher David Icke has announced that he is speaking to the Oxford Union in November. I'm leaving it to others to consider this for inclusion in the present article. __ meco 21:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This portion needs to be re-written and edited. It seems to fall into notion that every minute detail of that evening needs to be recounted in the vein of "they did this and others replied thus" mode. It is reminiscent of a Peter and Jane book. 84.12.22.235 ( talk) 20:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I honestly couldn't care less whether or not next term's officers are included. An editor called Legrasp seems convinced that the Hilary officers should be in the article; someone else seems to think this term's should be kept. Since Michaelmas term is over, but Hilary hasn't yet begun, there's no clear way to answer it. I hope the Union page doesn't fall prey to the hackery that the Union has. In any event, whichever version is currently favoured, can we please remember to change the 'Officers of the Union, X Term Y' accurate? ghostmoon EVP hauntings 21:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is largely to do with the fact that there are currently appeals about an election tribunal - this has meant that officially the set of officers for next term (Hilary) cannot take up their positions, and that the RO has been acting as President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Product1517 ( talk • contribs) 18:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody also keeps adding in 'Presidential advisor' into the table, which is not an officership and not elected and therefore not suitable for the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Budgie89 ( talk • contribs) 11:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This page has been protected from editing. This edit [1] keeps being inserted and removed. Discuss it on this page and reach a resolution. Editors who keep inserting and removing material are edit warring and may be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Edit warring. Ty 13:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I am one of the people who has been removing the 'Presidential advisor' from the table of officers. This is because it is not an officership but an appointed position. It is certainly not senior to Librarian. Rule 13(a) states: "The Junior Officers of the Society shall be the President, the President-Elect, the Librarian, the Treasurer, the Treasurer-Elect, the Secretary and the Steward. The Senior Officers shall be the Senior Librarian and the Senior Treasurer." [1] . If we were to include all appointed officials in this table then the Press Officer, Guest Liason Officers, Web Officers etc. would also appear. Appointed officials are not even members of Standing Committee! Budgie89 ( talk) 16:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
The person who keeps adding in 'Presidential Advisor' has done so again on February 2nd. Is there a way to block this from happening? Though he is now listed on the Union's website, he is only an "appointed official" and not, therefore, an Officer. The Officers are listed specifically as President, Librarian, Treasurer, Secretary, Junior Steward, President-elect and Treasurer-elect. There are several appointed officials, and none of these are listed on Wikipedia, nor are they elected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.46.213 ( talk) 12:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
There is broad general agreement that this 'advisor' post is most certainly not an officership and does not belong on the page. The most recent revert to incorrectly include the 'Advisor' post as an 'officer' was made with a public IP address. That IP address can be traced back to mr243.qeh.ox.ac.uk or the Queen Elizabeth House (Department of International Development) where Irakli Rogava, the person in question, is a student. It's impossible to prove, but the evidence strongly suggests that this is a case of vanity posting by the individual in question. It would appear the famed Union hack's desperate desire for limelight is as alive as ever. -- Starr 1990 ( talk) 00:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
References
Could we revisit this issue. Current officers are not notable. Lists should be lists of notable people. Other similar articles, such as those in the "See also" sections" do not list officers. The names are, I presume, listed on the Oxford Union's own web page. Can we delete this list. I have a mild conflict of interest as a Life Member of the Union but have not been in the place for over 50 years. -- Bduke (Discussion) 22:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The unsourced claim that Cristina Fernández de Kirchner has been a speaker has been repeatedly removed. The only source I have found for this is that she hass been invited to speak at a future date http://en.mercopress.com/2017/04/27/cristina-fernandez-invited-to-give-a-conference-at-oxford-university . Unless there is a reliable source saying that she has already spoken at Oxford Union she does not belong in the article. If and when she speaks she may be added to the list. Meters ( talk) 18:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
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Just a quick note that I'm editing this article while also (along with several hundred thousand other people) being a lifetime member of the organisation. -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 21:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I've holding back from editing the article directly in case of an appearance of COI, but I strongly recommend changes to this section because:
I don't object to there being a section on this controversy, but it doesn't merit those two long paragraphs: it needs radically cutting down. MartinPoulter ( talk) 20:28, 26 March 2019 (UTC)