This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think I understand the whole, Kelley, Bluegrass, Calumet thing, but business deals are not my area of expertise (ask my boss), so any clarification would be welcome. Tigerboy1966 12:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
BTW, I would give my eyeteeth for a good full body side shot of Oxbow that shows the white flecking in his coat, you can sort of see what's going on in some photos, but I'd also kill for a shot showing the base of his tail. He could be a roan (unusual, but not impossible) but also could have rabicano genetics. Both interesting; the roan doesn't seem to make sense because I don't see roaning on his sire or dam, and it's a dominant, so you think you would. But his dam has a lot of facial white, and of weird shapes, so sabino genetics are also possible. Your thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)Here are some examples:
The picture here [1] shows that Oxbow is a pretty odd-looking "bay". If you want to know just how wrong TB folks can get, here's a picture of the err... roan Winning Colors [2]. Tigerboy1966 20:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
OK, as they say, "moar": Look at this video I think Tizamazing almost certainly has sabino-y genetics, note her white chin and rather flashy white (especially for a dark bay horse). This may explain the roaning on Oxbow. Now, all of what follows here is total OR on my part, but I think we have some kind of sabino/rabicano thing going on. Let me tell you why: This is an Arabian horse I owned: File:BridlePath.jpg. She was solid dark bay when young, but at about the age of 23 or 24 she started to partially "roan out" with white hairs all over her neck. (I think she was 24 or so when this image was taken) My friends said she was just "going gray" but my vet thought some sort of genetic thing might have been at work. (FWIW, her dam was a heterozygous gray, but I doubt that matters) As seen in this image, she even developed slight flecking on the rest of her body as she aged. Though all this happened in her 20s, eEven when young, she also had a small weird white spot on her topline most of her life, and her sire, also a dark bay like her, had no markings other than a VERY white nose (indicative of Sabino genetics - one owner nicknamed him "snowball" for it) AND... (wait for it) a roaned-out body spot on his barrel (about 4" in diameter). Arabians don't carry a roan gene, but they DO carry sabino and rabicano, same as the TBs. So I guess I have seen dark bays do weird roany/sabino-y/rabicano-y things before. We ought to email this guy, who is the guru of horse coat color genetics and has helped at least one other editor I know. Bet he'd have a theory. Montanabw (talk) 00:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: Well, I did email Sponenberg, got an answer, but he didn't feel he could really say anything definitively, (noted for my coat color genetics geek benefit some reasons why Owbow didn't really quite fit any of the above) suggesting it might just be the "one off weird thing." LOL! Montanabw (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Question mostly for Craiglduncan, but also anyone else: IMHO, we don't need to say "grade X, $XXX,XXX purse over X distance" for every race, we wikilink the race and that should be all we need to do (presuming that all the race articles have this info, which they should). There may be appropriate times to note this, such as a move up in class, but particularly for the Derby and Preakness, it's unnecessary and makes the article's prose more convoluted to the reader. If you don't agree, I'm not considering it a moral issue or anything, but I think the article will flow better without it. Montanabw (talk) 21:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
"Hot", "frantic", "torrid", "stalking"... what's next? "explosive stretch drive", "eye-to-eye duel"? I thought this kind of journalese crap died out in about 2008.
Tigerboy1966
22:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
OK gang, most of you all know racing better than I do, so next question: Was it particularly unusual for this colt to have so many different jockeys for almost all his races, or is that actually pretty typical? I ask because apparently the horse is a bit difficult, has a reputation for being hard for his exercise riders to control, clearly rather tough to rate, and I'm wondering if the constant switch of riders is a factor (it is often a big deal if it happens to show horses, which is why I ask). I also ask because we have the stuff (both Craig and I put it in) about X jockeys in X races, but if that's not a big deal, then we also could toss it. Comments? Montanabw (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: FWIW, here is a source that comments on the number of races and the number of jockeys: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2013/05/20/haskin-s-preakness-recap-ox-tale.aspx. Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
OK all, I've found sources for the Road to the Derby points. Now, I think, the only things still with citation needed tags are the statement that "That performance encouraged his connections, including Lukas and owner Brad Kelley, to nominate Oxbow for the Triple Crown" and the bit on "After the Rebel, Oxbow rose to a top 5 spot in most Triple Crown prep polls." Craig, I think you added this, Froggerlaura, you are good at finding this stuff, can someone help me out on these two? (We can chop if unverifiable) Montanabw (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page) Montanabw (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC) One of the big problems is the refs. Please undo the ALLCAPS. Try to date and retrieve date each ref. Fill in as many authors as possible.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 23:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I generally agree with olive about the amount of racing jargon, but let me say upfront that I've never been to a horse race in my life.
Lead
" ... until a wire-to-wire victory in the Preakness"."Wire-to-wire" is a phrase I've never heard before. Does it mean from start to finish? If so, it might be easier on the non-American reader to say that.
"... out of a full sister to another Breeder's Cup Classic winner"."Sister to" rather than "sister of" sounds really odd to me.
Two-year-old season
"Listed at 22–1 that day ..."Listed by whom? Are there no on-course bookmakers in the US offering different odds?
"At 11–1 under jockey Jon Court ..."I'm wondering why these odds are important.
"... he broke sharply ..."What does that mean?
"... but had the lead by the first call at the quarter mile post.What does that mean? As opposed to the second call?
"Oxbow ran just off the pace throughout the race, despite being four horses wide around the first turn and three wide around the final turn."So the horse was four horses wide, and then three horses wide? By what magic?
Early three-year-old season
"... he went off as a 5–1 fourth choice with a favorable four post positionWhat's a "four post position"? Whose fourth choice?
"At the top of the stretch ..."The top of what stretch?
"Five weeks later, Oxbow was entered in the Grade II Risen Star Stakes at mile and one sixteenth."One sixteenth of what?
"... and was the second choice at 4–1."Does this mean he was the second favourite?
... Court sent Oxbow to the lead but he tired and finished fourth."And what about Oxbow, where did he finish? And why was the horse affected by Court's tiredness?
"Stevens deliberately tried to make Oxbow off the pace ...Tried to make him run off the pace?
"(Overanalyze won the race.)"Is that really important to the story?
Triple Crown Series
Kentucky Derby
"The horse had to use his speed early to avoid being pushed into the rail or being hemmed in behind traffic."Which horse are we talking about? Revolutionary or Oxbow?
Belmont Stakes
"However, the difficult to rate Oxbow moved up ...". Difficult for whom to rate? In what way difficult?
" However, he checked out to have no evident injuries."That's very strange phrasing, but did he ride Oxbow in the race? And why does the sentence start with "however", which is rarely a good idea.
"While Oxbow was the third favorite at 5-1 on the morning line".What's a morning line?
"... at the half-mile pole sat just a neck off the leader at :46-3/5. On the backstretch, Oxbow took the lead, and completed the three-quarter mile mark at 1:10.95".Seems odd in one instance to give the time as a regular fraction and then as a decimal fraction.
Preakness Stakes
"Similarly, it was the ninth Triple Crown win but the first since Point Given in 2001 for Stevens."In what way similar? Similar to what?
Notes
"Breezing a horse is to give them an easy workout under a hold without much encouragement from the rider"What does "under a hold" mean?
I will be offline most of Saturday, so unable to update the page that day with the Belmont results, whatever they may be. Can one of you other folks do so? Froggerlaura and I have both "primed the pump" by placing some preliminary info in hidden text at the appropriate spots on the page, so all anyone else needs to do is toss the hidden tags and add results. Ideally with a source (just put raw URL between ref tags and we can run reflinks to finish it up Monday or whenever). Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
My replies interspersed above. Thanks for the feedback. Montanabw (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Eric Corbett 11:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I think you can say {{convert|8|furlong|mi}} which becomes 8 furlongs (1.0 mi)? The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
By the way, Corbett, you've convinced me; I'll take it straight to FAC, but you'd better have my back, man...! :-) Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
OK all, for those of you who haven't done the FAC gauntlet before, give me or User:Eric Corbett a shout if anything comes up that you aren't sure about. If I may pun (or mix my equestrian metaphors beyond all reason), this isn't our first FAC rodeo, we can let you know what's a legitimate concern that's fixable (and I'm probably going to be the one who will have to fix most of those) or if we need to discuss other options. Montanabw (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Parking sources, mostly for sourcing overkill, if needed. Montanabw (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
*Jim Dandy Stakes July 27 at Saratoga
Collapsing the sandbox pending archive
|
---|
Different ways reporters put post-race comments from the jockey: USA Today source: "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions, and he never really got any break." New York Daily News: ( http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/bondy-biggest-losers-belmont-story-lines-article-1.1367263) “I’m so proud of this colt,” Stevens said. “I thought I was dead midway down the backside. There were suicidal fractions and he never got any break. Going into the far turn, I didn’t think he would have hit the board. To finish second, I am really surprised. He’s one of the greatest thoroughbreds ever.” http://articles.philly.com/2013-06-10/sports/39875282_1_oxbow-belmont-stakes-belmont-park : "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions and he never got any break . . . But I have ridden long enough to know that he was going to walk home the last quarter of a mile. Going into the far turn, I didn't think he would have hit the board." DRF source: Oxbow, despite what Stevens called “suicidal fractions,” courageously held second, leaving Stevens to call him “one of the bravest horses I’ve ever ridden.” UT San Diego: “I’m so proud of my colt,” Stevens said of Oxbow. “I thought I was dead after those suicide fractions (by Frac Daddy). When Mike put the pressure on us, I got him up for about five jumps, but that was it. Mike pulled away, and I said, ‘Go on Mikey.’ I’ve ridden long enough to know that after all that rockin’ on the backside, we were going to walk home. I was surprised to hit second. He gave it his all, and he is one of the best colts I’ve ever sat on.” Courier Journal source:“We were going entirely way too fast to be even competitive,” Stevens said. “That’s why I’m so proud of this colt. I didn’t think I would hit the board going down the backstretch, we were going that fast. ... Mike sat a perfect trip on the outside and had to be loving what he was seeing in front of him.”...“Mike had me any time he wanted to, coming into the stretch,” Stevens said. “I was real proud of Oxbow to be able to hold on and run second.” |
Stuff for later. Montanabw (talk) 19:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Created archive for old talk today. Article not apt to see much more editing until we know if Oxbow will return to racing later this year.
Montanabw
(talk)
23:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think I understand the whole, Kelley, Bluegrass, Calumet thing, but business deals are not my area of expertise (ask my boss), so any clarification would be welcome. Tigerboy1966 12:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
BTW, I would give my eyeteeth for a good full body side shot of Oxbow that shows the white flecking in his coat, you can sort of see what's going on in some photos, but I'd also kill for a shot showing the base of his tail. He could be a roan (unusual, but not impossible) but also could have rabicano genetics. Both interesting; the roan doesn't seem to make sense because I don't see roaning on his sire or dam, and it's a dominant, so you think you would. But his dam has a lot of facial white, and of weird shapes, so sabino genetics are also possible. Your thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)Here are some examples:
The picture here [1] shows that Oxbow is a pretty odd-looking "bay". If you want to know just how wrong TB folks can get, here's a picture of the err... roan Winning Colors [2]. Tigerboy1966 20:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
OK, as they say, "moar": Look at this video I think Tizamazing almost certainly has sabino-y genetics, note her white chin and rather flashy white (especially for a dark bay horse). This may explain the roaning on Oxbow. Now, all of what follows here is total OR on my part, but I think we have some kind of sabino/rabicano thing going on. Let me tell you why: This is an Arabian horse I owned: File:BridlePath.jpg. She was solid dark bay when young, but at about the age of 23 or 24 she started to partially "roan out" with white hairs all over her neck. (I think she was 24 or so when this image was taken) My friends said she was just "going gray" but my vet thought some sort of genetic thing might have been at work. (FWIW, her dam was a heterozygous gray, but I doubt that matters) As seen in this image, she even developed slight flecking on the rest of her body as she aged. Though all this happened in her 20s, eEven when young, she also had a small weird white spot on her topline most of her life, and her sire, also a dark bay like her, had no markings other than a VERY white nose (indicative of Sabino genetics - one owner nicknamed him "snowball" for it) AND... (wait for it) a roaned-out body spot on his barrel (about 4" in diameter). Arabians don't carry a roan gene, but they DO carry sabino and rabicano, same as the TBs. So I guess I have seen dark bays do weird roany/sabino-y/rabicano-y things before. We ought to email this guy, who is the guru of horse coat color genetics and has helped at least one other editor I know. Bet he'd have a theory. Montanabw (talk) 00:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: Well, I did email Sponenberg, got an answer, but he didn't feel he could really say anything definitively, (noted for my coat color genetics geek benefit some reasons why Owbow didn't really quite fit any of the above) suggesting it might just be the "one off weird thing." LOL! Montanabw (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Question mostly for Craiglduncan, but also anyone else: IMHO, we don't need to say "grade X, $XXX,XXX purse over X distance" for every race, we wikilink the race and that should be all we need to do (presuming that all the race articles have this info, which they should). There may be appropriate times to note this, such as a move up in class, but particularly for the Derby and Preakness, it's unnecessary and makes the article's prose more convoluted to the reader. If you don't agree, I'm not considering it a moral issue or anything, but I think the article will flow better without it. Montanabw (talk) 21:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
"Hot", "frantic", "torrid", "stalking"... what's next? "explosive stretch drive", "eye-to-eye duel"? I thought this kind of journalese crap died out in about 2008.
Tigerboy1966
22:50, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
OK gang, most of you all know racing better than I do, so next question: Was it particularly unusual for this colt to have so many different jockeys for almost all his races, or is that actually pretty typical? I ask because apparently the horse is a bit difficult, has a reputation for being hard for his exercise riders to control, clearly rather tough to rate, and I'm wondering if the constant switch of riders is a factor (it is often a big deal if it happens to show horses, which is why I ask). I also ask because we have the stuff (both Craig and I put it in) about X jockeys in X races, but if that's not a big deal, then we also could toss it. Comments? Montanabw (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Follow up: FWIW, here is a source that comments on the number of races and the number of jockeys: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2013/05/20/haskin-s-preakness-recap-ox-tale.aspx. Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
OK all, I've found sources for the Road to the Derby points. Now, I think, the only things still with citation needed tags are the statement that "That performance encouraged his connections, including Lukas and owner Brad Kelley, to nominate Oxbow for the Triple Crown" and the bit on "After the Rebel, Oxbow rose to a top 5 spot in most Triple Crown prep polls." Craig, I think you added this, Froggerlaura, you are good at finding this stuff, can someone help me out on these two? (We can chop if unverifiable) Montanabw (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page) Montanabw (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC) One of the big problems is the refs. Please undo the ALLCAPS. Try to date and retrieve date each ref. Fill in as many authors as possible.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 23:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
I generally agree with olive about the amount of racing jargon, but let me say upfront that I've never been to a horse race in my life.
Lead
" ... until a wire-to-wire victory in the Preakness"."Wire-to-wire" is a phrase I've never heard before. Does it mean from start to finish? If so, it might be easier on the non-American reader to say that.
"... out of a full sister to another Breeder's Cup Classic winner"."Sister to" rather than "sister of" sounds really odd to me.
Two-year-old season
"Listed at 22–1 that day ..."Listed by whom? Are there no on-course bookmakers in the US offering different odds?
"At 11–1 under jockey Jon Court ..."I'm wondering why these odds are important.
"... he broke sharply ..."What does that mean?
"... but had the lead by the first call at the quarter mile post.What does that mean? As opposed to the second call?
"Oxbow ran just off the pace throughout the race, despite being four horses wide around the first turn and three wide around the final turn."So the horse was four horses wide, and then three horses wide? By what magic?
Early three-year-old season
"... he went off as a 5–1 fourth choice with a favorable four post positionWhat's a "four post position"? Whose fourth choice?
"At the top of the stretch ..."The top of what stretch?
"Five weeks later, Oxbow was entered in the Grade II Risen Star Stakes at mile and one sixteenth."One sixteenth of what?
"... and was the second choice at 4–1."Does this mean he was the second favourite?
... Court sent Oxbow to the lead but he tired and finished fourth."And what about Oxbow, where did he finish? And why was the horse affected by Court's tiredness?
"Stevens deliberately tried to make Oxbow off the pace ...Tried to make him run off the pace?
"(Overanalyze won the race.)"Is that really important to the story?
Triple Crown Series
Kentucky Derby
"The horse had to use his speed early to avoid being pushed into the rail or being hemmed in behind traffic."Which horse are we talking about? Revolutionary or Oxbow?
Belmont Stakes
"However, the difficult to rate Oxbow moved up ...". Difficult for whom to rate? In what way difficult?
" However, he checked out to have no evident injuries."That's very strange phrasing, but did he ride Oxbow in the race? And why does the sentence start with "however", which is rarely a good idea.
"While Oxbow was the third favorite at 5-1 on the morning line".What's a morning line?
"... at the half-mile pole sat just a neck off the leader at :46-3/5. On the backstretch, Oxbow took the lead, and completed the three-quarter mile mark at 1:10.95".Seems odd in one instance to give the time as a regular fraction and then as a decimal fraction.
Preakness Stakes
"Similarly, it was the ninth Triple Crown win but the first since Point Given in 2001 for Stevens."In what way similar? Similar to what?
Notes
"Breezing a horse is to give them an easy workout under a hold without much encouragement from the rider"What does "under a hold" mean?
I will be offline most of Saturday, so unable to update the page that day with the Belmont results, whatever they may be. Can one of you other folks do so? Froggerlaura and I have both "primed the pump" by placing some preliminary info in hidden text at the appropriate spots on the page, so all anyone else needs to do is toss the hidden tags and add results. Ideally with a source (just put raw URL between ref tags and we can run reflinks to finish it up Monday or whenever). Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
The Rambling Man ( talk) 16:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
My replies interspersed above. Thanks for the feedback. Montanabw (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Eric Corbett 11:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I think you can say {{convert|8|furlong|mi}} which becomes 8 furlongs (1.0 mi)? The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
By the way, Corbett, you've convinced me; I'll take it straight to FAC, but you'd better have my back, man...! :-) Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
OK all, for those of you who haven't done the FAC gauntlet before, give me or User:Eric Corbett a shout if anything comes up that you aren't sure about. If I may pun (or mix my equestrian metaphors beyond all reason), this isn't our first FAC rodeo, we can let you know what's a legitimate concern that's fixable (and I'm probably going to be the one who will have to fix most of those) or if we need to discuss other options. Montanabw (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Parking sources, mostly for sourcing overkill, if needed. Montanabw (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
*Jim Dandy Stakes July 27 at Saratoga
Collapsing the sandbox pending archive
|
---|
Different ways reporters put post-race comments from the jockey: USA Today source: "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions, and he never really got any break." New York Daily News: ( http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/bondy-biggest-losers-belmont-story-lines-article-1.1367263) “I’m so proud of this colt,” Stevens said. “I thought I was dead midway down the backside. There were suicidal fractions and he never got any break. Going into the far turn, I didn’t think he would have hit the board. To finish second, I am really surprised. He’s one of the greatest thoroughbreds ever.” http://articles.philly.com/2013-06-10/sports/39875282_1_oxbow-belmont-stakes-belmont-park : "I'm so proud of this colt," Stevens said. "I thought I was dead midway down the backside. They were suicidal fractions and he never got any break . . . But I have ridden long enough to know that he was going to walk home the last quarter of a mile. Going into the far turn, I didn't think he would have hit the board." DRF source: Oxbow, despite what Stevens called “suicidal fractions,” courageously held second, leaving Stevens to call him “one of the bravest horses I’ve ever ridden.” UT San Diego: “I’m so proud of my colt,” Stevens said of Oxbow. “I thought I was dead after those suicide fractions (by Frac Daddy). When Mike put the pressure on us, I got him up for about five jumps, but that was it. Mike pulled away, and I said, ‘Go on Mikey.’ I’ve ridden long enough to know that after all that rockin’ on the backside, we were going to walk home. I was surprised to hit second. He gave it his all, and he is one of the best colts I’ve ever sat on.” Courier Journal source:“We were going entirely way too fast to be even competitive,” Stevens said. “That’s why I’m so proud of this colt. I didn’t think I would hit the board going down the backstretch, we were going that fast. ... Mike sat a perfect trip on the outside and had to be loving what he was seeing in front of him.”...“Mike had me any time he wanted to, coming into the stretch,” Stevens said. “I was real proud of Oxbow to be able to hold on and run second.” |
Stuff for later. Montanabw (talk) 19:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Created archive for old talk today. Article not apt to see much more editing until we know if Oxbow will return to racing later this year.
Montanabw
(talk)
23:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)