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Needs embedded music examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.202.1.180 ( talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Allow me to express my sincere doubts about the statement "Throat singing, also known in the western world as overtone singing, harmonic singing, or harmonic chant". In most of the rest of the world people seem to know the distinction between throat (german: de:kehlkopfgesang and overtone singing de:Obertongesang, although they can be nicely combined. I recently uploaded examples on commons that demonstrate my point:
If someone made an effort to disambiguate this article, i would suggest entering those sound examples into it. -- Kku 09:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
~ This entire article needs a review by a knowledgeable person. Although there is some clarification at the top of the page the term "throat singing" is later used to denote examples of harmonic singing. The terminology of these singing styles has long been interchanged by those who do not know or care about the difference and I hope we can add clarity to this page rather than continue to use the terms interchangeably. The examples of artists at the bottom of the page are also lumped together and no comment is offered of what particular style(s) they sing.
[definitions of Harmonic vs Throat removed for brevity. ~ HarmonicSpoke]
I also suspect the example of Italian "Cantu a tenores" performed by four male singers does not belong here at all. If it is the style I have heard recently it is neither throat- nor harmonic-singing. The style mearly (perhaps that is too dismissive) makes use of the interactions of the four voices to amplify particular harmonics (using constuctive interference - here it is the additive effects of multiple tones sharing the same harmonic) whithout an individual doing this job. If I am correct, this interesting example of the use of harmonics in other music could be referenced but moved to a more suitable location dealing with sound production and accoustics.
DC/Vancouver,BC HarmonicSpoke 07:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You are right - my definition is far too restrictive. I have gone so far as to remove it in shame ... and to spare future readers incorrect information. I do think the Kargyrra style of using the ventricular folds to create a tone an octave lower is heard in Tibetan Chant and other styles but, as I have so clearly demonstrated, I lack true knowledge. As far as using the terms interchangeabley I am also overreacting a bit and once again lack the definite knowledge needed to jump in and edit. First I was unhappy with the definition of throat singing as "[referring to] several traditional Central Asian styles of overtone singing" as I believe that not all throat singing isolates harmonics. In "Global Styles" it says "Arthur Miles, independently created a style of throat singing as a substitute for the normal yodeling ..." but, from the recordings I have heard, it is harmonic singing. The whole "Global Styles" section, by way of the second sentence, implies throat singing is used by all artists listed. It is here and in "Current Artist ~ Other" that some clarification would be appreciated. HarmonicSpoke 05:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The article has become rather like an advertisement and I'm working on cleaning it up. Anyone have any suggestions? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Latebird, I would like to know why you removed my edits, considering them to be spam. They were not spam. They were links to the website of an artist who does genuine overtone singing. The sound samples page I linked to had examples of overtone singing for free download. If you consider these links to be spam, then I would be interested in hearing why a link to David Hykes's artist page is not considered spam. Thank you and blessings. Lupin1022 00:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I feel that overtone singing in general (that is, just making overtones while singing) should be differentiated from throat singing, as it s very possible to make overtones without actually using Khoomei or Kargyraa voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.231.226.39 ( talk) 07:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The diagram "Physical representation of first (O1) and second (O2) overtones" showes the partials of a pipe which is closed on one side, or a Klarinet, they have onely half as many overtones (every second) as the whole serie which apears when you sing overtones. But most people will not know what to do with the Diagram anyway, thats why no one complained yet. (sorry for my English, I'm german) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vidzel ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
If I'm reading WP:EL right, external links to artist websites should be done in the article on the artist. How about though the links to 'how-to' sites or audio samples? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 18:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The last line for "Kargyraa" reads "This style can also be described as the howling winds of winter or the plaintive cries of a mother camel after losing her calf." I believe this is worded poorly and makes it seem like fact rather than opinion. Theoretically I _could_ describe it any way I like as, say, "THe melodious sound of swarming chipmunks.", but that's hardly notable. If a great many Tuvan Throat Singers or fans of them _do_ describe it as such, then I propose this be changed to something along the lines of: "Sometimes describes as...", "Some describe it as....", etc. Or even just "Also describes as..." like the style right above it.
The last line of "Khoomei" is even worse. The other one at least had that "can" in there to make it something other than pure BS. "Singing in this style gives the impression of wind swirling among rocks." Does it really? How do we know? I'm assuming that was taken word-for-word from some sort of travel pamphlet or otherwise biased material promoting Tuvan Throat Singing. But seriously, there is a whole world of difference between, say, "Many claim singing in this style gives the impression of a..." and the flat, wannabe-factual "Singing in this style gives the impression of a blah blah blah...".
I know someones gonna jump in here saying its just semantics and we all understand the point being made, but as an encyclopedia shouldn't we try to be more encyclopedic? I'm not changing it myself because I'm not really sure what to change it to without it being a lame repeat of that last "advertising" line of the surrounding styles. I'd be all for deleteing those lines completely, but it is interesting to know what they compare the sound to... even if they compare it to something else which I haven't the slightest clue as to how it sounds. 71.120.201.39 ( talk) 18:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I have a hard time believing that Overtone singing in Tuva is more important than in all the rest of Asia. I'd expect that at least all over Central Asia (especially Mongolia and Inner Mongolia) it has at least the same importance, if not more because of the relative sizes of territory and population. It seems like there are just the most vocal advocates pushing Tuvan overtone singing here. This makes the section on Asia highly biased and unencyclopedic. -- Latebird ( talk) 08:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Also in chile the MAPUDUNGUN Culture throat sings. Its name here is WÚLÚLL or somethin like that. You should add south america. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.236.171.179 ( talk) 00:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be moved to the "Non-traditional styles" section if it even belongs here at all? RKFS ( talk) 17:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
My replacement of “ harmonic resonances” with “ overtones” has been reverted with the description “formants are harmonic resonances, independent of sung or played fundamentals; they are not overtones”. I agree that the sentence, as I had it, was misleading in that it might be misread to mean that the overtones of the fundamental change their frequency, which would indeed be wrong.
However, calling formants “ harmonic” resonances is even more misleading. “Harmonic” in this context can only be understood to be with reference to the fundamental. While it is true that the resulting frequency distribution still consists of harmonic resonances of the fundamental, the formants themselves are generally not an integer multiple of the fundamental. I will therefore remove the word “harmonic]” again.
I also would like to reintroduce the term “ overtone”, because I feel we need a link to that article somewhere in the lead section. Problem is, I am not sure if that term is even meant in the same sense, or if the correspondence is only coincidental. Originally, I assumed the former, because one can say that overtone singing employs the overtones by changing their relative volumes. But that’s less elegant than using the term “formant”. Does anyone have an idea how to describe this in the lead? — Sebastian 03:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The point is that the formants are manipulated to selectively emphasize some overtones (via filtering). I can't find great sources that help say it better, but I have linked one semi-decent book source that I found. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor had removed the link to Sarah Hopkins, presumably because that article already describes a different person. So I reinstated the link, but changed it to Sarah Hopkins (composer). We don't have an article on the composer, and I'm not sure how important "Past Life Melodies" is; so maybe that sentence should be removed altogether. But there are some 3000 Google hits to '"Sarah Hopkins" composer', which is at least a notch better than negligible. — Sebastian 19:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Some Saami Joiks are (and have always traditionally been) performed using throat singing (overtone singing). An example is a song collected by Somby. For some reason, my edits that clarified the existence of ancient throat singing Joiks were all deleted from these articles, so I give up. This note is just a statement, in case someone else wants to try adding this interesting topic to WP. David Spector ( user/ talk) 00:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! I also sing sometimes overtone singing. Those examples, which are first are very poor. I have keeped It on this article and I've add another examples of throat singing recorded by me. Thank You! Cassa342 ( talk) 01:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
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Since they're already in throat singing and Inuit throat singing, a page which even warns to "Not to be confused with overtone singing, the 'throat singing' of Tibet, Mongolia, and Tuva", why are the Inuit and Ainu styles of throat singing here if they are not types of overtone singing? I've removed them for now and added a distinguishing link to throat singing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LatakiaHill ( talk • contribs) 23:43, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
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Needs embedded music examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.202.1.180 ( talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Allow me to express my sincere doubts about the statement "Throat singing, also known in the western world as overtone singing, harmonic singing, or harmonic chant". In most of the rest of the world people seem to know the distinction between throat (german: de:kehlkopfgesang and overtone singing de:Obertongesang, although they can be nicely combined. I recently uploaded examples on commons that demonstrate my point:
If someone made an effort to disambiguate this article, i would suggest entering those sound examples into it. -- Kku 09:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
~ This entire article needs a review by a knowledgeable person. Although there is some clarification at the top of the page the term "throat singing" is later used to denote examples of harmonic singing. The terminology of these singing styles has long been interchanged by those who do not know or care about the difference and I hope we can add clarity to this page rather than continue to use the terms interchangeably. The examples of artists at the bottom of the page are also lumped together and no comment is offered of what particular style(s) they sing.
[definitions of Harmonic vs Throat removed for brevity. ~ HarmonicSpoke]
I also suspect the example of Italian "Cantu a tenores" performed by four male singers does not belong here at all. If it is the style I have heard recently it is neither throat- nor harmonic-singing. The style mearly (perhaps that is too dismissive) makes use of the interactions of the four voices to amplify particular harmonics (using constuctive interference - here it is the additive effects of multiple tones sharing the same harmonic) whithout an individual doing this job. If I am correct, this interesting example of the use of harmonics in other music could be referenced but moved to a more suitable location dealing with sound production and accoustics.
DC/Vancouver,BC HarmonicSpoke 07:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
You are right - my definition is far too restrictive. I have gone so far as to remove it in shame ... and to spare future readers incorrect information. I do think the Kargyrra style of using the ventricular folds to create a tone an octave lower is heard in Tibetan Chant and other styles but, as I have so clearly demonstrated, I lack true knowledge. As far as using the terms interchangeabley I am also overreacting a bit and once again lack the definite knowledge needed to jump in and edit. First I was unhappy with the definition of throat singing as "[referring to] several traditional Central Asian styles of overtone singing" as I believe that not all throat singing isolates harmonics. In "Global Styles" it says "Arthur Miles, independently created a style of throat singing as a substitute for the normal yodeling ..." but, from the recordings I have heard, it is harmonic singing. The whole "Global Styles" section, by way of the second sentence, implies throat singing is used by all artists listed. It is here and in "Current Artist ~ Other" that some clarification would be appreciated. HarmonicSpoke 05:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The article has become rather like an advertisement and I'm working on cleaning it up. Anyone have any suggestions? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody 20:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Latebird, I would like to know why you removed my edits, considering them to be spam. They were not spam. They were links to the website of an artist who does genuine overtone singing. The sound samples page I linked to had examples of overtone singing for free download. If you consider these links to be spam, then I would be interested in hearing why a link to David Hykes's artist page is not considered spam. Thank you and blessings. Lupin1022 00:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I feel that overtone singing in general (that is, just making overtones while singing) should be differentiated from throat singing, as it s very possible to make overtones without actually using Khoomei or Kargyraa voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.231.226.39 ( talk) 07:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The diagram "Physical representation of first (O1) and second (O2) overtones" showes the partials of a pipe which is closed on one side, or a Klarinet, they have onely half as many overtones (every second) as the whole serie which apears when you sing overtones. But most people will not know what to do with the Diagram anyway, thats why no one complained yet. (sorry for my English, I'm german) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vidzel ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
If I'm reading WP:EL right, external links to artist websites should be done in the article on the artist. How about though the links to 'how-to' sites or audio samples? -- Stacey Doljack Borsody ( talk) 18:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The last line for "Kargyraa" reads "This style can also be described as the howling winds of winter or the plaintive cries of a mother camel after losing her calf." I believe this is worded poorly and makes it seem like fact rather than opinion. Theoretically I _could_ describe it any way I like as, say, "THe melodious sound of swarming chipmunks.", but that's hardly notable. If a great many Tuvan Throat Singers or fans of them _do_ describe it as such, then I propose this be changed to something along the lines of: "Sometimes describes as...", "Some describe it as....", etc. Or even just "Also describes as..." like the style right above it.
The last line of "Khoomei" is even worse. The other one at least had that "can" in there to make it something other than pure BS. "Singing in this style gives the impression of wind swirling among rocks." Does it really? How do we know? I'm assuming that was taken word-for-word from some sort of travel pamphlet or otherwise biased material promoting Tuvan Throat Singing. But seriously, there is a whole world of difference between, say, "Many claim singing in this style gives the impression of a..." and the flat, wannabe-factual "Singing in this style gives the impression of a blah blah blah...".
I know someones gonna jump in here saying its just semantics and we all understand the point being made, but as an encyclopedia shouldn't we try to be more encyclopedic? I'm not changing it myself because I'm not really sure what to change it to without it being a lame repeat of that last "advertising" line of the surrounding styles. I'd be all for deleteing those lines completely, but it is interesting to know what they compare the sound to... even if they compare it to something else which I haven't the slightest clue as to how it sounds. 71.120.201.39 ( talk) 18:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I have a hard time believing that Overtone singing in Tuva is more important than in all the rest of Asia. I'd expect that at least all over Central Asia (especially Mongolia and Inner Mongolia) it has at least the same importance, if not more because of the relative sizes of territory and population. It seems like there are just the most vocal advocates pushing Tuvan overtone singing here. This makes the section on Asia highly biased and unencyclopedic. -- Latebird ( talk) 08:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Also in chile the MAPUDUNGUN Culture throat sings. Its name here is WÚLÚLL or somethin like that. You should add south america. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.236.171.179 ( talk) 00:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be moved to the "Non-traditional styles" section if it even belongs here at all? RKFS ( talk) 17:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
My replacement of “ harmonic resonances” with “ overtones” has been reverted with the description “formants are harmonic resonances, independent of sung or played fundamentals; they are not overtones”. I agree that the sentence, as I had it, was misleading in that it might be misread to mean that the overtones of the fundamental change their frequency, which would indeed be wrong.
However, calling formants “ harmonic” resonances is even more misleading. “Harmonic” in this context can only be understood to be with reference to the fundamental. While it is true that the resulting frequency distribution still consists of harmonic resonances of the fundamental, the formants themselves are generally not an integer multiple of the fundamental. I will therefore remove the word “harmonic]” again.
I also would like to reintroduce the term “ overtone”, because I feel we need a link to that article somewhere in the lead section. Problem is, I am not sure if that term is even meant in the same sense, or if the correspondence is only coincidental. Originally, I assumed the former, because one can say that overtone singing employs the overtones by changing their relative volumes. But that’s less elegant than using the term “formant”. Does anyone have an idea how to describe this in the lead? — Sebastian 03:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The point is that the formants are manipulated to selectively emphasize some overtones (via filtering). I can't find great sources that help say it better, but I have linked one semi-decent book source that I found. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
An IP editor had removed the link to Sarah Hopkins, presumably because that article already describes a different person. So I reinstated the link, but changed it to Sarah Hopkins (composer). We don't have an article on the composer, and I'm not sure how important "Past Life Melodies" is; so maybe that sentence should be removed altogether. But there are some 3000 Google hits to '"Sarah Hopkins" composer', which is at least a notch better than negligible. — Sebastian 19:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Some Saami Joiks are (and have always traditionally been) performed using throat singing (overtone singing). An example is a song collected by Somby. For some reason, my edits that clarified the existence of ancient throat singing Joiks were all deleted from these articles, so I give up. This note is just a statement, in case someone else wants to try adding this interesting topic to WP. David Spector ( user/ talk) 00:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! I also sing sometimes overtone singing. Those examples, which are first are very poor. I have keeped It on this article and I've add another examples of throat singing recorded by me. Thank You! Cassa342 ( talk) 01:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Overtone singing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
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Since they're already in throat singing and Inuit throat singing, a page which even warns to "Not to be confused with overtone singing, the 'throat singing' of Tibet, Mongolia, and Tuva", why are the Inuit and Ainu styles of throat singing here if they are not types of overtone singing? I've removed them for now and added a distinguishing link to throat singing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LatakiaHill ( talk • contribs) 23:43, 8 May 2022 (UTC)