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This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 203.206.199.217 ( talk) 07:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Flower of life is part of Sacred geomtry pattern that has been studied by many respectable figures, Leonardo Da Vinci among them too. It is essential to have this voice kept on wikipedia and it's surely more important and more relevant than a manga.
This page should not be speedily deleted because... there is nothing wrong with the flower of life. (your reason here) -- 82.34.247.69 ( talk) 17:41, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... This is truth. Its should be available to all and everyone has right to read about this. let's spread love.--pb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:420:140D:1300:8C17:DEA3:15CC:C864 ( talk) 20:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... someone cared to create it. It seems to have been moved from a user page. If someone doesn't like it, and wants to delete it, then I suggest it be moved back to the user page until its status can be resolved. Tom Ruen ( talk) 23:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I have carried out a histmerge for attribution purposes and to make earlier versions available to editors. Just Chilling ( talk) 19:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... Nov 3: Requesting speedy deletion (CSD G4).) and Declined speedy - not substantially identical to the deleted version - if it is desired to pursue deletion then this can be returned to WP:AFD.) -- Tom Ruen ( talk) 14:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I tried my best to improve the contents, making it a neutral point of view, and added a section on construction and related figures to help connect this figure to other contents of Wikipedia. Tom Ruen ( talk) 19:19, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I did a newspaper site search and found: Tom Ruen ( talk) 00:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I've not seen any systematic colorings, except maybe radial ones like [1], so for fun I tried a couple, connected to edge colorings of two uniform compound tilings, left 3 hexagonal tilings, and right 3 triangular tilings. I'll add some rainbow coloring too. Tom Ruen ( talk) 16:03, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
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p.s. Within quilting this general pattern has been called Diamond Wedding Ring pattern by Judy Niemeyer, although it only goes to a second level, and adds 6-sided stars inside the intersection points. (The name seems to be a variation of double wedding ring quilts which works similarly on a square grid of circles, one commons image for that one File:Double Wedding Ring Quilt.jpg.) Tom Ruen ( talk) 07:02, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
"The pattern has been found as an artifact of ancient cultures around the world" - a sweeping claim like this need to be supported by proper archeological or art history texts. At the moment, such a claim has no more standing than Erich von Däniken's stuff. Rummaging around the world identifying "Flower of Life" motifs everywhere is not a substitute for proper expert interpretation of what these historical objects actually are. This pattern is composed entirely of compass points / arcs, i.e. it is all construction lines. In that form it exists as a preliminary underlying stage (a framework) for the creation/construction of more complicated interlace patterns. See for example pages 120-122 of "Islamic Patterns, an analytical and Cosmological Approach" by Keith Critchlow. Critchlow does not give a name to this motif, because for him it is simply the preliminary laying out phase for constructing more complicated patterns. So there is a question in my mind about whether it ever existed historically as an actual standalone object. Any historical objects might just be practice exercises in producing the layout lines required for the preliminary stage in the production of more complicated geometric motifs. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Further to the comment by DGG here I am proposing that this page be moved to Flower of Life as the primary topic, with a hatnote for the manga. Just Chilling ( talk) 18:49, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I removed the spherical example (left) since it doesn't represent the hexagonal pattern, although it MAY be close as hexagons on a goldberg polyhedron. I did some looking into circle patterns on spheres, with circles circumscribing regular faces, and give an example on a dodecahedron, icosahedron, and icosidodecahedron below, but unless we have sources that connect these patterns, I don't think they belong here. I also contrast the cicumscribed hexagons of a hexagonal grid below, which is 1/3 of a flower of life pattern. Tom Ruen ( talk) 04:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
To add anything to the article we need some sources, but if we're following the same rules as the planar cases, circle radii defined to intersect nearest circle center, here the examples I found. I mainly mentioned the Goldberg polyhedra because they do represent a way of unlimited number of circles, like the planar cases. They do fail in the sense that circles won't all be identical diameters but artistically you may not notice, like File:China-beijing-forbidden-city-P1000157-detail.jpg.
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On mutations it is actually easier to extend into the hyperbolic plane, like these with more interlocking rings. [4]. Tom Ruen ( talk) 04:28, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Why are we using Bruce Rawles as a source? I can't find any evidence he is a reliable source, the cited works appear to be self-published. Guy ( Help!) 14:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
I think we can't use Sempiternal and A Head Full of Dreams in a gallery as these are fair use images. They need to be stand-alone images, preferably near the text which calls them out. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 20:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
One reason for the apparent "stepchild" status of this article may be that it is connected to the incommensurate Wikipedia portals/projects on "Mathematics" respective "Spirituality" - for each of those portals the subject at hand is deemed "low importance". So it sort of falls between two chairs. I do not know how to do this, but I suggest that a third project be enabled, if such a project does exist; that of the Creative Arts. In this suggested context I do not think that the matter would be rated "low importance". Spiritualists and Mathematicians will likely argue forever and never agree. These eternal deletions and resurrections make life hard for those of us that belong to neither of those two groups, but still have an "on topic" relation to the subject matter of the article. clsc ( talk) 18:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Is there a reference/source for the last part of this sentence (from opening section): "Patterns based on a square grid of overlapping circles are found in quilt design, in Ancient Egypt as noted in the 1856 book The Grammar of Ornament, and in the Hindu temple at Prambanan in Java." Ie. a source for the "Square grid of overlapping circles" being used in that temple complex. Would be nice with an image, if possible. The Commons page is extensive, and I've not been able to find an image there that supports the claim. Neither in sources [19] and [20] - although these pages do feature a similar "Kawung" pattern there is no obvious link visible to me from these fabric designs to the temple itself. clsc ( talk) 00:25, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
A patent for the use of the flower of life pattern to cure tinnitus (I'm not making this up) has appeared in the Further reading section. One might have thought the patent office would be a bit more skeptical of such things, but apparently if the application is filled in correctly the fact that it's WP:BOLLOCKS doesn't matter any more, guess it makes them a bit of cash. Do people think we should be including such things, and if so why would it be in a Further reading section? I'd hazard that this constitutes original research from a primary source, rather than a reliable secondary source discussing the thing. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Flower of Life (geometry) →
Overlapping circles grid –
Consensus at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flower of Life (geometry) (4th nomination).
jps (
talk)
18:02, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The following two books are being promoted:
The first is self-published and described as "controversial". It should not be included on both grounds. The second is, frankly, hogwash. Wikipedia should not be in the business of promoting fanciful books or neologisms. If they are included, the links to the sales pages absolutely should not be. Guy ( Help!) 13:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There are two books listed in "further reading" which seem to be a hangover from the previous title of the article:
One user is determined that these should remain, I think they should not, because inclusion gives undue weight to fringe views. Guy ( Help!) 16:47, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
I have BOLDly removed the disputed material. I recommend this RfC be closed as there is emerging consensus against including the material. On the other hand I also note that the title of the RfC is not neutrally-worded. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
When I try to access the "Metatron's cube" page, it redirects me to "Overlapping circles grid#Metatron's cube" page. However, this page does not contain any information about Metatron's cube whatsoever. I definitely remember that the information about Metatron's cube was somewhere on wikipedia before. I think it was related to the pages "Platonic solids" and "Sacred geometry", but I'm not sure. In fact I even found that information here: /info/en/?search=User:Tomruen/Metatron%27s_Cube I believe that either this information should be returned somewhere ("Overlapping circles grid" page is fine by me) or at least the misleading redirects should be deleted from wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14F:4401:F830:C8EE:7078:2801:DA2B ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC) agreed, just came here looking for Metatrons cube 186.30.32.203 ( talk) 00:23, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) -- 203.206.199.217 ( talk) 07:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Flower of life is part of Sacred geomtry pattern that has been studied by many respectable figures, Leonardo Da Vinci among them too. It is essential to have this voice kept on wikipedia and it's surely more important and more relevant than a manga.
This page should not be speedily deleted because... there is nothing wrong with the flower of life. (your reason here) -- 82.34.247.69 ( talk) 17:41, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... This is truth. Its should be available to all and everyone has right to read about this. let's spread love.--pb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:420:140D:1300:8C17:DEA3:15CC:C864 ( talk) 20:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... someone cared to create it. It seems to have been moved from a user page. If someone doesn't like it, and wants to delete it, then I suggest it be moved back to the user page until its status can be resolved. Tom Ruen ( talk) 23:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I have carried out a histmerge for attribution purposes and to make earlier versions available to editors. Just Chilling ( talk) 19:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because... Nov 3: Requesting speedy deletion (CSD G4).) and Declined speedy - not substantially identical to the deleted version - if it is desired to pursue deletion then this can be returned to WP:AFD.) -- Tom Ruen ( talk) 14:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I tried my best to improve the contents, making it a neutral point of view, and added a section on construction and related figures to help connect this figure to other contents of Wikipedia. Tom Ruen ( talk) 19:19, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I did a newspaper site search and found: Tom Ruen ( talk) 00:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I've not seen any systematic colorings, except maybe radial ones like [1], so for fun I tried a couple, connected to edge colorings of two uniform compound tilings, left 3 hexagonal tilings, and right 3 triangular tilings. I'll add some rainbow coloring too. Tom Ruen ( talk) 16:03, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
![]() |
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p.s. Within quilting this general pattern has been called Diamond Wedding Ring pattern by Judy Niemeyer, although it only goes to a second level, and adds 6-sided stars inside the intersection points. (The name seems to be a variation of double wedding ring quilts which works similarly on a square grid of circles, one commons image for that one File:Double Wedding Ring Quilt.jpg.) Tom Ruen ( talk) 07:02, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
"The pattern has been found as an artifact of ancient cultures around the world" - a sweeping claim like this need to be supported by proper archeological or art history texts. At the moment, such a claim has no more standing than Erich von Däniken's stuff. Rummaging around the world identifying "Flower of Life" motifs everywhere is not a substitute for proper expert interpretation of what these historical objects actually are. This pattern is composed entirely of compass points / arcs, i.e. it is all construction lines. In that form it exists as a preliminary underlying stage (a framework) for the creation/construction of more complicated interlace patterns. See for example pages 120-122 of "Islamic Patterns, an analytical and Cosmological Approach" by Keith Critchlow. Critchlow does not give a name to this motif, because for him it is simply the preliminary laying out phase for constructing more complicated patterns. So there is a question in my mind about whether it ever existed historically as an actual standalone object. Any historical objects might just be practice exercises in producing the layout lines required for the preliminary stage in the production of more complicated geometric motifs. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Further to the comment by DGG here I am proposing that this page be moved to Flower of Life as the primary topic, with a hatnote for the manga. Just Chilling ( talk) 18:49, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I removed the spherical example (left) since it doesn't represent the hexagonal pattern, although it MAY be close as hexagons on a goldberg polyhedron. I did some looking into circle patterns on spheres, with circles circumscribing regular faces, and give an example on a dodecahedron, icosahedron, and icosidodecahedron below, but unless we have sources that connect these patterns, I don't think they belong here. I also contrast the cicumscribed hexagons of a hexagonal grid below, which is 1/3 of a flower of life pattern. Tom Ruen ( talk) 04:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
To add anything to the article we need some sources, but if we're following the same rules as the planar cases, circle radii defined to intersect nearest circle center, here the examples I found. I mainly mentioned the Goldberg polyhedra because they do represent a way of unlimited number of circles, like the planar cases. They do fail in the sense that circles won't all be identical diameters but artistically you may not notice, like File:China-beijing-forbidden-city-P1000157-detail.jpg.
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On mutations it is actually easier to extend into the hyperbolic plane, like these with more interlocking rings. [4]. Tom Ruen ( talk) 04:28, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Why are we using Bruce Rawles as a source? I can't find any evidence he is a reliable source, the cited works appear to be self-published. Guy ( Help!) 14:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
I think we can't use Sempiternal and A Head Full of Dreams in a gallery as these are fair use images. They need to be stand-alone images, preferably near the text which calls them out. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 20:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
One reason for the apparent "stepchild" status of this article may be that it is connected to the incommensurate Wikipedia portals/projects on "Mathematics" respective "Spirituality" - for each of those portals the subject at hand is deemed "low importance". So it sort of falls between two chairs. I do not know how to do this, but I suggest that a third project be enabled, if such a project does exist; that of the Creative Arts. In this suggested context I do not think that the matter would be rated "low importance". Spiritualists and Mathematicians will likely argue forever and never agree. These eternal deletions and resurrections make life hard for those of us that belong to neither of those two groups, but still have an "on topic" relation to the subject matter of the article. clsc ( talk) 18:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Is there a reference/source for the last part of this sentence (from opening section): "Patterns based on a square grid of overlapping circles are found in quilt design, in Ancient Egypt as noted in the 1856 book The Grammar of Ornament, and in the Hindu temple at Prambanan in Java." Ie. a source for the "Square grid of overlapping circles" being used in that temple complex. Would be nice with an image, if possible. The Commons page is extensive, and I've not been able to find an image there that supports the claim. Neither in sources [19] and [20] - although these pages do feature a similar "Kawung" pattern there is no obvious link visible to me from these fabric designs to the temple itself. clsc ( talk) 00:25, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
A patent for the use of the flower of life pattern to cure tinnitus (I'm not making this up) has appeared in the Further reading section. One might have thought the patent office would be a bit more skeptical of such things, but apparently if the application is filled in correctly the fact that it's WP:BOLLOCKS doesn't matter any more, guess it makes them a bit of cash. Do people think we should be including such things, and if so why would it be in a Further reading section? I'd hazard that this constitutes original research from a primary source, rather than a reliable secondary source discussing the thing. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 11:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Flower of Life (geometry) →
Overlapping circles grid –
Consensus at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flower of Life (geometry) (4th nomination).
jps (
talk)
18:02, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The following two books are being promoted:
The first is self-published and described as "controversial". It should not be included on both grounds. The second is, frankly, hogwash. Wikipedia should not be in the business of promoting fanciful books or neologisms. If they are included, the links to the sales pages absolutely should not be. Guy ( Help!) 13:33, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There are two books listed in "further reading" which seem to be a hangover from the previous title of the article:
One user is determined that these should remain, I think they should not, because inclusion gives undue weight to fringe views. Guy ( Help!) 16:47, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
I have BOLDly removed the disputed material. I recommend this RfC be closed as there is emerging consensus against including the material. On the other hand I also note that the title of the RfC is not neutrally-worded. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
When I try to access the "Metatron's cube" page, it redirects me to "Overlapping circles grid#Metatron's cube" page. However, this page does not contain any information about Metatron's cube whatsoever. I definitely remember that the information about Metatron's cube was somewhere on wikipedia before. I think it was related to the pages "Platonic solids" and "Sacred geometry", but I'm not sure. In fact I even found that information here: /info/en/?search=User:Tomruen/Metatron%27s_Cube I believe that either this information should be returned somewhere ("Overlapping circles grid" page is fine by me) or at least the misleading redirects should be deleted from wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14F:4401:F830:C8EE:7078:2801:DA2B ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC) agreed, just came here looking for Metatrons cube 186.30.32.203 ( talk) 00:23, 28 April 2018 (UTC)