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The parts you removed are not biased. To claim the Bush 'axis of evil' phrase was highly criticised is fact. There is nothing in the article claiming whether this criticism was justified, only that it occurred. Grunners 02:31, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am only here because of the notice at WP:RFC. In my opinion, the "often highly criticized" is highly POV (as well as being awkwardly worded). You don't need to pound the idea into the reader that the phrase was criticized, and unless the reader has been living in a remote cave (and perhaps even then), they already know that the phrase received plenty of criticism from various countries, groups, and individuals. If you have to, just link the mention of the criticism to Axis_of_evil#Criticism_of_the_term.
Also, "the new term has quickly come under fire" is another addition of POV. If you want to make the point that it has been criticized, it would be much better to include an example of the criticism such as a quote from, or an external link to, a critique of the phrase from Human Rights Watch or another NGO. BlankVerse 07:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Georgia is clearly one of the freer countries in the world (though certainly far from perfect), and it has improved quite considerably since the Rose Revolution. I've now replaced it with Egypt, which has a considerably worse human rights record. Why do you insist on keeping Georgia in as an exemplar of a US ally with a poor human rights record, when there are other much clearer examples?-- Pharos
Human Rights Watch ( http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/georgi9903.htm) has this to say in a document dated 15/1/2005: "torture and ill-treatment in pre-trial detention remain widespread. Chechen refugees also remain vulnerable to state discrimination and abuse by Georgian security forces." and "In February, the new government rushed several constitutional changes through Parliament. One change empowered the president to appoint and dismiss judges. This change—which contravenes international human rights norms—increases the president’s influence over a judiciary which already lacked independence." and "The government is engaged in a highly publicized fight against corruption, with frequent arrests of high profile figures. Georgian nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) and others are concerned that the authorities are selectively targeting individuals for political reasons, and that the law is not being applied equally to all. Allegations of due process violations are common, and some of those detained for corruption allege torture and ill-treatment." That seems pretty clear to me. -- Xaliqen 20:50, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are clearly some problems with human rights in Georgia, but it is a democracy and compared with other countries it has a relatively good record.-- Pharos 20:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how Georgia has a much better human rights record than Egypt. I won't start a revert war over this because I don't see the point, but I would have to say that my overall impression is that Georgia does not have a good human rights record. -- Xaliqen 21:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) However, I will say that Georgia has a better human rights record than Saudi Arabia. -- Xaliqen 21:11, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Georgia (unlike Egypt) is rather indisputably a democracy with more freedoms than nearly all other countries in the CIS. I think if you followed Georgia more closely, you would see it is clearly not among the worse violators of human rights in the world. I concur about Saudi Arabia, which makes no pretense of the absolute nature of its government.-- Pharos 21:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
it's too unusual not to see Belarus in this list... -- Monkbel 08:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Now I'd be the first to admit that the human rights situation in Colombia is horrible, and to criticize U.S. policy towards the country and towards the drug war, yet that does not equate to even suggesting the existence of something that merits "outpost of tyranny" status. That's an entirely different animal. Colombia, even at its worst, is in an entirely different category than Egypt, China and Saudi Arabia. Especially because even if its a country in the middle of a horrible war (and that's already a big difference, to begin with!), many respected international organizations who, obviously, have completely warranted criticisms (which are very easy to Google up, anyone can do that, but that's not the point) openly avoid making such suggestions, both implicitly and explicitly, and do not place Colombia together with the previously mentioned entities as part of such potential "outposts of tyranny" (and by respected international organizations I mean the UN, OAS, IACHR, RSF, HRW, TI, ISHR, FH, etc. and others, for which I can provide links to). Hence I consider that equating Colombia with China, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, in the context of this article is definitely debatable, especially when made in such an offhand manner, "as if" the only reason Colombia wouldn't be included in the list is because of "U.S. political concerns". The situation in Colombia is far more complex than that and the previously mentioned organizations recognize that, even when they make their criticisms. Juancarlos2004 02:11, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Yet another country's removed from the list! - I've removed Turkey from the list of countries, the human rights situation in Turkey isn't comparable to any in the outposts of tyranny nor with the likes of Saudi Arabia. How was this list drawn up? Who are these 'political commentators'? What criteria was used? -- Joolz 00:09, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Who says I dislike it? It's weasel because it has no source, just "political commentators", not because of how I feel about it. Does HRW (or anyone notable) specifically criticize the US government for "outposts of tyranny"? If so please source it. If not the list should go, because we Avoid weasel terms at Wikipedia. And if you do find a source, is it neutralized by:
It sounds to me as if the US government criticizes these countries at least once a year. -- M4-10 05:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This list has no source. It has nothing to do with the article and you cite no sources of any "political commentators" who used this list. You are the only political commentator here. In any case political commentators comment on news, they don't make it. This article is about Condeleeza Rice, her phrase "outposts of tyranny", any resulting U.S. policy, and the individual countries she named. Anything else is off-topic. North Korean government reaction: on topic. Markos Zuniga reaction: off topic. If you have any links that specificially criticize (or support) Rice or her phrase feel free to put them in an "external links" section. -- M4-10 14:25, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is clearly notable that while the U.S is opposing the "Outposts of Tyranny" here, it has allied with other governments that have very major human rights problems. Criticism of policies is also notable, and should not just be relegated to an external link. I'm not saying we have to have a comprehensive listing of of every questionable government the U.S. is allied with, but there should be at least a few examples to demonstrate the point.-- Pharos 17:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the POV tag. Although I wasn't the one to put it up, I think Pharos' last edit is good enough to remove it. I still think it's silly: we wouldn't put "But communism impoverished millions of workers" in the article about Workers of the World, Unite!. Not very encyclopedic. Oh well. If anyone feels the need to re-add the POV tag, please explain your reasons here. -- M4-10 21:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pharos asks, "it's "hostile original research" that Uzbekistan is widely seen as having a poor human rights record?"
No, though this is not what is in contention, as what the article states is that, "Although the U.S. government has castigated those states designated as "Outposts of tyranny" for their human rights records, it has maintained friendly relations and even alliances with some other governments with poor human rights records." It does not mention the perception of others and neither is either sort of assertion sourced. What the intention plainly is here is to utilize presumed facts about some countries with much better (in many instances, at least) relations with the US as a polemical device against the usage of the term, whereas even of the compiled list (the terms for which are argued over here as no one apparently realizes the inappropriateness of deciding such a list for this site) are there criticisms from the same government (US), agency (State Dept.), and official (Rice), which was frankly admitted in a later edit. So instead what we essentially have is that the State Dept. and Bush administration has come up with gradations of state human rights violators, of which apparently "outpost of tyranny" is the most severe, and some Wikipedia editors object to this practice and wish to ghost write their own criticisms without even the pretense of correlating actual material concerning the subject.
Lastly, it is rather negligent to revert legitimate changes not concerning disputed material alongside it, though such a KOS mentality is revealing. -- TJive July 3, 2005 22:31 (UTC)
Again, I think there is no allowance here as to interpretation. Just as she remarked on "outposts of tyranny" she also labeled the Middle East as a "region of tyranny"--which itself not only included unmentioned traditional U.S. foes such as Syria and Libya (and arguably Sudan) but U.S. allies such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. I edited the article to reflect this but another editor found it to be too subjective a judgement. I do, however, disagree that this can be said to be the only and worst form of public criticism as a short time ago Rice paid a very high-profile visit to the same "region of tyranny" to explicitly chastise human rights practices in those very allied countries. What I am basically saying here is that as "outposts of tyranny" seems to hold no official designation in the parlance of government that it should be taken as a convenient, informal neologism (which the article is designated under) and not as a blanket prescriptive policy for dealing with states based upon a detailed examination of the record (and thus some are said by persons unseen to have eluded it), which is what the attempted interpretation here is. -- TJive July 4, 2005 14:23 (UTC)
In no way was the list of countries with poor human rights records, which also maintain good relations with the United States, "hostile original research." I find the censorship of this list to be surprising, especially since I'd already listed a good source in hrw.org and the specific link listed in the conversation above. I find the exclusion of the list to be a violation of NPOV because it is rather glaringly representing one viewpoint on the issue to merely list Rice's statements with various verifications without even mentioning the vast controversy sparked by the term. The article as it stands at the moment I find to be rather outrageously biased and almost propagandistic in nature. -- Xaliqen 21:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
TJive, I wholeheartedly support your recent addition providing further information about 'Reactions' to the term, and consider it a vast improvement over the previous material. I believe that, in addressing these issues in this specific manner, the article has been greatly improved.-- Xaliqen 01:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Does it not seem strange to anyone else that the "reactions" section, essentially criticisms, is longer than the actual subject of the article? In my opinion, the speech given should be quoted more thoroughly or something done to keep this encycolpedic. Perhaps drop the reference to a writer's opinion from "The Progressive"? haha. There are reactions from the governments of South Africa, N. Korea... and a random writer from "The Progressive"?? The article is unbalanced... specifically because that source is noticably out of place. If Wiki subject articles were to allow inclusion of random social and political commentary from pundits and/or unknown editors from any newspaper... it's going to get messy. You'll have Pravda, Daily Kos, The Constitution, KKK Weekly (if that exists), etc.. taking up the majority of space in articles that are fairly straightforward. The relevence to the thoughts of Joe Smith from a partisan newspaper is what exactly? Cowboy357 07:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, people seem to be revert warring over which map version to use, can we discuss it here instead please? To me one version seems overly complicated and introduces other things which aren't related so much to this page, personally I'm not sure a map is really appropriate at all, it seems rather unneccessary. -- Joolz 11:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
So what does "the town square test" say about Free speech zones? Ojw 19:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the above 2005 discussions, it seems that the passage of three years seems to have calmed things down in this article. The article still needs to focus better on the initial uses of the term as there now are no quotes in the article from Rice containing "Outposts of tyranny". Suntag ( talk) 01:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The sourcing of this article is very poor. It seems to be little more than an article about a phrase Condoleeza Rice used once, with WP:OR analysis added. No notability is even asserted! I'm pretty sure I'll be coming back to AfD this thing soon, when I'm not busy. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad ( talk) 01:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
dear Wikipedia team. please look up those countries that are known they do not oblidge to cultural exchange programne, or cannot be visited. And Visa were not granted. example: it was not DDR that could not be visited. Sometimes tyrrany countries are nit allowed to VISIT Other Countries. This worsens tyrrany. but if a country is NOT A TYRRANY, and it CAN NOT ENTER SOME OTHER COUNTRIES, WHATS GOING ON? 2A01:598:C801:A650:3071:73B0:CD0F:FD76 ( talk) 10:26, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
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The parts you removed are not biased. To claim the Bush 'axis of evil' phrase was highly criticised is fact. There is nothing in the article claiming whether this criticism was justified, only that it occurred. Grunners 02:31, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am only here because of the notice at WP:RFC. In my opinion, the "often highly criticized" is highly POV (as well as being awkwardly worded). You don't need to pound the idea into the reader that the phrase was criticized, and unless the reader has been living in a remote cave (and perhaps even then), they already know that the phrase received plenty of criticism from various countries, groups, and individuals. If you have to, just link the mention of the criticism to Axis_of_evil#Criticism_of_the_term.
Also, "the new term has quickly come under fire" is another addition of POV. If you want to make the point that it has been criticized, it would be much better to include an example of the criticism such as a quote from, or an external link to, a critique of the phrase from Human Rights Watch or another NGO. BlankVerse 07:40, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Georgia is clearly one of the freer countries in the world (though certainly far from perfect), and it has improved quite considerably since the Rose Revolution. I've now replaced it with Egypt, which has a considerably worse human rights record. Why do you insist on keeping Georgia in as an exemplar of a US ally with a poor human rights record, when there are other much clearer examples?-- Pharos
Human Rights Watch ( http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/georgi9903.htm) has this to say in a document dated 15/1/2005: "torture and ill-treatment in pre-trial detention remain widespread. Chechen refugees also remain vulnerable to state discrimination and abuse by Georgian security forces." and "In February, the new government rushed several constitutional changes through Parliament. One change empowered the president to appoint and dismiss judges. This change—which contravenes international human rights norms—increases the president’s influence over a judiciary which already lacked independence." and "The government is engaged in a highly publicized fight against corruption, with frequent arrests of high profile figures. Georgian nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) and others are concerned that the authorities are selectively targeting individuals for political reasons, and that the law is not being applied equally to all. Allegations of due process violations are common, and some of those detained for corruption allege torture and ill-treatment." That seems pretty clear to me. -- Xaliqen 20:50, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are clearly some problems with human rights in Georgia, but it is a democracy and compared with other countries it has a relatively good record.-- Pharos 20:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't see how Georgia has a much better human rights record than Egypt. I won't start a revert war over this because I don't see the point, but I would have to say that my overall impression is that Georgia does not have a good human rights record. -- Xaliqen 21:08, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) However, I will say that Georgia has a better human rights record than Saudi Arabia. -- Xaliqen 21:11, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Georgia (unlike Egypt) is rather indisputably a democracy with more freedoms than nearly all other countries in the CIS. I think if you followed Georgia more closely, you would see it is clearly not among the worse violators of human rights in the world. I concur about Saudi Arabia, which makes no pretense of the absolute nature of its government.-- Pharos 21:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
it's too unusual not to see Belarus in this list... -- Monkbel 08:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Now I'd be the first to admit that the human rights situation in Colombia is horrible, and to criticize U.S. policy towards the country and towards the drug war, yet that does not equate to even suggesting the existence of something that merits "outpost of tyranny" status. That's an entirely different animal. Colombia, even at its worst, is in an entirely different category than Egypt, China and Saudi Arabia. Especially because even if its a country in the middle of a horrible war (and that's already a big difference, to begin with!), many respected international organizations who, obviously, have completely warranted criticisms (which are very easy to Google up, anyone can do that, but that's not the point) openly avoid making such suggestions, both implicitly and explicitly, and do not place Colombia together with the previously mentioned entities as part of such potential "outposts of tyranny" (and by respected international organizations I mean the UN, OAS, IACHR, RSF, HRW, TI, ISHR, FH, etc. and others, for which I can provide links to). Hence I consider that equating Colombia with China, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, in the context of this article is definitely debatable, especially when made in such an offhand manner, "as if" the only reason Colombia wouldn't be included in the list is because of "U.S. political concerns". The situation in Colombia is far more complex than that and the previously mentioned organizations recognize that, even when they make their criticisms. Juancarlos2004 02:11, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Yet another country's removed from the list! - I've removed Turkey from the list of countries, the human rights situation in Turkey isn't comparable to any in the outposts of tyranny nor with the likes of Saudi Arabia. How was this list drawn up? Who are these 'political commentators'? What criteria was used? -- Joolz 00:09, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
Who says I dislike it? It's weasel because it has no source, just "political commentators", not because of how I feel about it. Does HRW (or anyone notable) specifically criticize the US government for "outposts of tyranny"? If so please source it. If not the list should go, because we Avoid weasel terms at Wikipedia. And if you do find a source, is it neutralized by:
It sounds to me as if the US government criticizes these countries at least once a year. -- M4-10 05:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This list has no source. It has nothing to do with the article and you cite no sources of any "political commentators" who used this list. You are the only political commentator here. In any case political commentators comment on news, they don't make it. This article is about Condeleeza Rice, her phrase "outposts of tyranny", any resulting U.S. policy, and the individual countries she named. Anything else is off-topic. North Korean government reaction: on topic. Markos Zuniga reaction: off topic. If you have any links that specificially criticize (or support) Rice or her phrase feel free to put them in an "external links" section. -- M4-10 14:25, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is clearly notable that while the U.S is opposing the "Outposts of Tyranny" here, it has allied with other governments that have very major human rights problems. Criticism of policies is also notable, and should not just be relegated to an external link. I'm not saying we have to have a comprehensive listing of of every questionable government the U.S. is allied with, but there should be at least a few examples to demonstrate the point.-- Pharos 17:35, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the POV tag. Although I wasn't the one to put it up, I think Pharos' last edit is good enough to remove it. I still think it's silly: we wouldn't put "But communism impoverished millions of workers" in the article about Workers of the World, Unite!. Not very encyclopedic. Oh well. If anyone feels the need to re-add the POV tag, please explain your reasons here. -- M4-10 21:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Pharos asks, "it's "hostile original research" that Uzbekistan is widely seen as having a poor human rights record?"
No, though this is not what is in contention, as what the article states is that, "Although the U.S. government has castigated those states designated as "Outposts of tyranny" for their human rights records, it has maintained friendly relations and even alliances with some other governments with poor human rights records." It does not mention the perception of others and neither is either sort of assertion sourced. What the intention plainly is here is to utilize presumed facts about some countries with much better (in many instances, at least) relations with the US as a polemical device against the usage of the term, whereas even of the compiled list (the terms for which are argued over here as no one apparently realizes the inappropriateness of deciding such a list for this site) are there criticisms from the same government (US), agency (State Dept.), and official (Rice), which was frankly admitted in a later edit. So instead what we essentially have is that the State Dept. and Bush administration has come up with gradations of state human rights violators, of which apparently "outpost of tyranny" is the most severe, and some Wikipedia editors object to this practice and wish to ghost write their own criticisms without even the pretense of correlating actual material concerning the subject.
Lastly, it is rather negligent to revert legitimate changes not concerning disputed material alongside it, though such a KOS mentality is revealing. -- TJive July 3, 2005 22:31 (UTC)
Again, I think there is no allowance here as to interpretation. Just as she remarked on "outposts of tyranny" she also labeled the Middle East as a "region of tyranny"--which itself not only included unmentioned traditional U.S. foes such as Syria and Libya (and arguably Sudan) but U.S. allies such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. I edited the article to reflect this but another editor found it to be too subjective a judgement. I do, however, disagree that this can be said to be the only and worst form of public criticism as a short time ago Rice paid a very high-profile visit to the same "region of tyranny" to explicitly chastise human rights practices in those very allied countries. What I am basically saying here is that as "outposts of tyranny" seems to hold no official designation in the parlance of government that it should be taken as a convenient, informal neologism (which the article is designated under) and not as a blanket prescriptive policy for dealing with states based upon a detailed examination of the record (and thus some are said by persons unseen to have eluded it), which is what the attempted interpretation here is. -- TJive July 4, 2005 14:23 (UTC)
In no way was the list of countries with poor human rights records, which also maintain good relations with the United States, "hostile original research." I find the censorship of this list to be surprising, especially since I'd already listed a good source in hrw.org and the specific link listed in the conversation above. I find the exclusion of the list to be a violation of NPOV because it is rather glaringly representing one viewpoint on the issue to merely list Rice's statements with various verifications without even mentioning the vast controversy sparked by the term. The article as it stands at the moment I find to be rather outrageously biased and almost propagandistic in nature. -- Xaliqen 21:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
TJive, I wholeheartedly support your recent addition providing further information about 'Reactions' to the term, and consider it a vast improvement over the previous material. I believe that, in addressing these issues in this specific manner, the article has been greatly improved.-- Xaliqen 01:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Does it not seem strange to anyone else that the "reactions" section, essentially criticisms, is longer than the actual subject of the article? In my opinion, the speech given should be quoted more thoroughly or something done to keep this encycolpedic. Perhaps drop the reference to a writer's opinion from "The Progressive"? haha. There are reactions from the governments of South Africa, N. Korea... and a random writer from "The Progressive"?? The article is unbalanced... specifically because that source is noticably out of place. If Wiki subject articles were to allow inclusion of random social and political commentary from pundits and/or unknown editors from any newspaper... it's going to get messy. You'll have Pravda, Daily Kos, The Constitution, KKK Weekly (if that exists), etc.. taking up the majority of space in articles that are fairly straightforward. The relevence to the thoughts of Joe Smith from a partisan newspaper is what exactly? Cowboy357 07:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, people seem to be revert warring over which map version to use, can we discuss it here instead please? To me one version seems overly complicated and introduces other things which aren't related so much to this page, personally I'm not sure a map is really appropriate at all, it seems rather unneccessary. -- Joolz 11:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
So what does "the town square test" say about Free speech zones? Ojw 19:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the above 2005 discussions, it seems that the passage of three years seems to have calmed things down in this article. The article still needs to focus better on the initial uses of the term as there now are no quotes in the article from Rice containing "Outposts of tyranny". Suntag ( talk) 01:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The sourcing of this article is very poor. It seems to be little more than an article about a phrase Condoleeza Rice used once, with WP:OR analysis added. No notability is even asserted! I'm pretty sure I'll be coming back to AfD this thing soon, when I'm not busy. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad ( talk) 01:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
dear Wikipedia team. please look up those countries that are known they do not oblidge to cultural exchange programne, or cannot be visited. And Visa were not granted. example: it was not DDR that could not be visited. Sometimes tyrrany countries are nit allowed to VISIT Other Countries. This worsens tyrrany. but if a country is NOT A TYRRANY, and it CAN NOT ENTER SOME OTHER COUNTRIES, WHATS GOING ON? 2A01:598:C801:A650:3071:73B0:CD0F:FD76 ( talk) 10:26, 18 March 2022 (UTC)