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The article is called "Outer Mongolia", but only discusses the more-or-less synonymous "Northern Mongolia". Orcoteuthis ( talk) 15:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Isn't OM synonymous w/ Mongolia (country). This should redirect there and the info contained in this article should be incorporated into its history section. -- Jiang 06:26, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I pretty certain I've read somewhere that ROC (Taiwan) has recognized Mongolia as an independent state, or at least renouced all claims to Outer Mongolia and surrounding regions, sometime during the 90's. Unfortunately I can't remember the source of this infomation, except that the recognition was done through a legislative act. Can anyone verify? --Alan
The ROC recognized the statehood of Mongolia on 30 January 2002, not in 1990s, though there are still controversies as to whether it is constitutional. See my recent article edit to find it.-- Jusjih 15:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
From an edit to UN General Assembly Resolution 505, I have copied this text:
I can't read the PDF that is cited in this statement. Mang ( talk) 21:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The literal translation of Manchu tulergi monggo would be "Outer Mongols", not "Outer Mongolia". Even if we ignore the distinction between people and geography, tulergi monggo does not mean Outer Mongolia as in English. The tulergi monggo were autonomously controlled by Mongol ǰasaγ (jasak in Manchu) as opposed to "Inner Mongols" like the Chakhar and the Tümed who were directly under the Manchu Emperor. In other words, the tulergi monggo included not only the Khalkha but also the Ordus, Kharachin, Khorchin and others of Inner Mongolia. "Outer Mongols" and "Inner Mongols" correspond to 外藩蒙古 and 內屬蒙古 respectively in Chinese. As for Inner/Outer Mongolia, the Manchu phrase "dorgi jasak i monggoso" (Mongols of[who was ruled by] inner ǰasaγ) referred to the Mongols of banners in Inner Mongolia. -- Nanshu 07:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Normally this usage is regarded as rather diplomatically incorrect by the PRC authorities especially in Russian or Mongolian officials' presence. Having said this, the term remains in very wide usage in Chinese circles by nationalist-leaning people who still believe in the ultimate goal of China is to recover all the lands that were in Chinese (Qing) hands in 1840 but not today, which in other words they still believe or dream of Mongolia being a part of China again. A lot of anti-Communist KMT supporting Chinese overseas, or fenqing still refuse to accept Mongolia's independence and view it as a Soviet/Russian-imperialist-controlled puppet regime (in Chiang Kai-shek's words) not supported by ordinary Mongolians.
Even on the Chinese Communist side, Mao Zedong famously said repeatedly in the 1950s that once the PRC would get prosperous and Mongolia would then come begging to rejoin China. From time to time, people in China sprout that after Taiwan, the next goal in national reunification is with Mongolia. I have seen a few recurring rumours on mainland Chinese cyberspace that even made it to Singapore's Lianhe Zaobao about a Mongolian province's Klural passing resolutions calling for Mongolia coming under the PRC in the Special Administrative Region mold akin to Hong Kong or Macau. -- JNZ ( talk) 10:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I had some edits reverted due to dispute of the scope of the article. As it stands now, the article implies that "Outer Mongolia" only refers to the region in the Bogdo Khanate period from 1911-1919 (or 1924). But Outer Mongolia both pre- and post-dates this period. Here is an example of English usage from the US Dept of State:
The Manchus, a tribal group which conquered China in 1644 and formed the Qing dynasty, were able to bring Mongolia under Manchu control in 1691 as Outer Mongolia when the Khalkha Mongol nobles swore an oath of allegiance to the Manchu emperor. The Mongol rulers of Outer Mongolia enjoyed considerable autonomy under the Manchus, and all Chinese claims to Outer Mongolia following the establishment of the republic have rested on this oath. In 1727, Russia and Manchu China concluded the Treaty of Khiakta, delimiting the border between China and Mongolia that exists in large part today. Outer Mongolia was a Chinese province (1691-1911), an autonomous state under Russian protection (1912-19), and again a Chinese province (1919-21).
Here's another from the US Library of Congress:
Outer Mongolia: The name applied to the northern part of traditional Mongolia during the period of Manchu control (1691-1911) and commonly in Western literature thereafter.
This is reflected at Wikipedia as well at articles such as Administrative divisions of Mongolia during Qing ("Mongolia was administratively divided into 2 main regions: Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia.")
Examples of "Outer Mongolia" being used for the Mongolian People's Republic in English can be found here, here, and here
As far as the use of "Outer Mongolia" in Taiwan, it can be seen in a ROC government publication here ("In 1949, the ROC government relocated to Taiwan, and Mongolia established diplomatic ties with the People's Republic of China. Due to a souring of relations with the Soviet Union in the early 1950s, however, the ROC revoked recognition of Outer Mongolia, reclaiming it as ROC territory.")
Examples of "Outer Mongolia" used metaphorically by English speakers to denote a generically remote place can be found here and here ("my favorite point of reference for all things odd and out of way")
None of these uses are necessarily entire accurate, correct, or politically neutral. Nonetheless, they reflect English usage and should be included in the article. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive and simply reflects what is already out there. To suggest that the only or most important meaning of Outer Mongolia is "main part of the Bogdo Khanate of Mongolia" (ca 1911-1924) is patently ridiculous. Carry on with nationalist arguments here at the talk page, not in the article. — AjaxSmack 03:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to make it even clearer. "Outer Mongolia" can refer to the following:
All of these meanings should be covered in the article. You don't have to agree as to whether the usage is "correct" or not; it exists and is attestable. — AjaxSmack 03:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Writing it horizontally of course creates less mess-up in texts, but it also requires you to turn your head all the time. This is no big problem with books, which can easily be turned into the best reading position, but try that with an old 17" monitor! :-) I guess you could discuss this at the Mongolia work group, but at the moment, I do prefer writing it vertically. Yaan ( talk) 11:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I tentatively replaced the phrase "administrative division" with "region." Leaving the Uriyangkhai aside, we can hardly say that Outer Mongolia was an administrative division of the Manchu Qing Dynasty because Outer Mongolia was hardly a concrete political entity. The Manchu empire applied divide-and-rule policies to the Khalkha though not so tightly as to the South. The situation is complicated as the empire spent nearly a century to establish the administrative system, and we need to take into account civil, military and religious affairs. In short, the Khalkha were divided into numerous banners. Four aymags, which were simultaneously leagues, were just liaisons. There was no such thing as a central government of Outer Mongolia. -- Nanshu ( talk) 13:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Northern Mongolia is simply literal translation of Ar Mongol. It doesn't intend to "elude" anything. There is no political implication in it. I explained it a lot at various places in WP. Gantuya eng ( talk) 10:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The massive expansion of this article - particular for history - is unnecessary. This article should - at most - briefly summarize the Mongolian history articles up to 1921, then hand off to other articles for much of everything after 1921; the articles related to independent Mongolia effectively take over from there. The expansion just duplicates content in other articles using less accessible (non-English) sources. - RovingPersonalityConstruct ( talk, contribs) 02:18, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging Outer Mongolia into History of Mongolia. Though its small, that article should merge with the latter while the name section will be moved to the Mongolia#Etymology section. 174.89.100.11 ( talk) 04:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Outer Mongolia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The article is called "Outer Mongolia", but only discusses the more-or-less synonymous "Northern Mongolia". Orcoteuthis ( talk) 15:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Isn't OM synonymous w/ Mongolia (country). This should redirect there and the info contained in this article should be incorporated into its history section. -- Jiang 06:26, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I pretty certain I've read somewhere that ROC (Taiwan) has recognized Mongolia as an independent state, or at least renouced all claims to Outer Mongolia and surrounding regions, sometime during the 90's. Unfortunately I can't remember the source of this infomation, except that the recognition was done through a legislative act. Can anyone verify? --Alan
The ROC recognized the statehood of Mongolia on 30 January 2002, not in 1990s, though there are still controversies as to whether it is constitutional. See my recent article edit to find it.-- Jusjih 15:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
From an edit to UN General Assembly Resolution 505, I have copied this text:
I can't read the PDF that is cited in this statement. Mang ( talk) 21:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
References
The literal translation of Manchu tulergi monggo would be "Outer Mongols", not "Outer Mongolia". Even if we ignore the distinction between people and geography, tulergi monggo does not mean Outer Mongolia as in English. The tulergi monggo were autonomously controlled by Mongol ǰasaγ (jasak in Manchu) as opposed to "Inner Mongols" like the Chakhar and the Tümed who were directly under the Manchu Emperor. In other words, the tulergi monggo included not only the Khalkha but also the Ordus, Kharachin, Khorchin and others of Inner Mongolia. "Outer Mongols" and "Inner Mongols" correspond to 外藩蒙古 and 內屬蒙古 respectively in Chinese. As for Inner/Outer Mongolia, the Manchu phrase "dorgi jasak i monggoso" (Mongols of[who was ruled by] inner ǰasaγ) referred to the Mongols of banners in Inner Mongolia. -- Nanshu 07:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Normally this usage is regarded as rather diplomatically incorrect by the PRC authorities especially in Russian or Mongolian officials' presence. Having said this, the term remains in very wide usage in Chinese circles by nationalist-leaning people who still believe in the ultimate goal of China is to recover all the lands that were in Chinese (Qing) hands in 1840 but not today, which in other words they still believe or dream of Mongolia being a part of China again. A lot of anti-Communist KMT supporting Chinese overseas, or fenqing still refuse to accept Mongolia's independence and view it as a Soviet/Russian-imperialist-controlled puppet regime (in Chiang Kai-shek's words) not supported by ordinary Mongolians.
Even on the Chinese Communist side, Mao Zedong famously said repeatedly in the 1950s that once the PRC would get prosperous and Mongolia would then come begging to rejoin China. From time to time, people in China sprout that after Taiwan, the next goal in national reunification is with Mongolia. I have seen a few recurring rumours on mainland Chinese cyberspace that even made it to Singapore's Lianhe Zaobao about a Mongolian province's Klural passing resolutions calling for Mongolia coming under the PRC in the Special Administrative Region mold akin to Hong Kong or Macau. -- JNZ ( talk) 10:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I had some edits reverted due to dispute of the scope of the article. As it stands now, the article implies that "Outer Mongolia" only refers to the region in the Bogdo Khanate period from 1911-1919 (or 1924). But Outer Mongolia both pre- and post-dates this period. Here is an example of English usage from the US Dept of State:
The Manchus, a tribal group which conquered China in 1644 and formed the Qing dynasty, were able to bring Mongolia under Manchu control in 1691 as Outer Mongolia when the Khalkha Mongol nobles swore an oath of allegiance to the Manchu emperor. The Mongol rulers of Outer Mongolia enjoyed considerable autonomy under the Manchus, and all Chinese claims to Outer Mongolia following the establishment of the republic have rested on this oath. In 1727, Russia and Manchu China concluded the Treaty of Khiakta, delimiting the border between China and Mongolia that exists in large part today. Outer Mongolia was a Chinese province (1691-1911), an autonomous state under Russian protection (1912-19), and again a Chinese province (1919-21).
Here's another from the US Library of Congress:
Outer Mongolia: The name applied to the northern part of traditional Mongolia during the period of Manchu control (1691-1911) and commonly in Western literature thereafter.
This is reflected at Wikipedia as well at articles such as Administrative divisions of Mongolia during Qing ("Mongolia was administratively divided into 2 main regions: Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia.")
Examples of "Outer Mongolia" being used for the Mongolian People's Republic in English can be found here, here, and here
As far as the use of "Outer Mongolia" in Taiwan, it can be seen in a ROC government publication here ("In 1949, the ROC government relocated to Taiwan, and Mongolia established diplomatic ties with the People's Republic of China. Due to a souring of relations with the Soviet Union in the early 1950s, however, the ROC revoked recognition of Outer Mongolia, reclaiming it as ROC territory.")
Examples of "Outer Mongolia" used metaphorically by English speakers to denote a generically remote place can be found here and here ("my favorite point of reference for all things odd and out of way")
None of these uses are necessarily entire accurate, correct, or politically neutral. Nonetheless, they reflect English usage and should be included in the article. Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive and simply reflects what is already out there. To suggest that the only or most important meaning of Outer Mongolia is "main part of the Bogdo Khanate of Mongolia" (ca 1911-1924) is patently ridiculous. Carry on with nationalist arguments here at the talk page, not in the article. — AjaxSmack 03:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to make it even clearer. "Outer Mongolia" can refer to the following:
All of these meanings should be covered in the article. You don't have to agree as to whether the usage is "correct" or not; it exists and is attestable. — AjaxSmack 03:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Writing it horizontally of course creates less mess-up in texts, but it also requires you to turn your head all the time. This is no big problem with books, which can easily be turned into the best reading position, but try that with an old 17" monitor! :-) I guess you could discuss this at the Mongolia work group, but at the moment, I do prefer writing it vertically. Yaan ( talk) 11:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I tentatively replaced the phrase "administrative division" with "region." Leaving the Uriyangkhai aside, we can hardly say that Outer Mongolia was an administrative division of the Manchu Qing Dynasty because Outer Mongolia was hardly a concrete political entity. The Manchu empire applied divide-and-rule policies to the Khalkha though not so tightly as to the South. The situation is complicated as the empire spent nearly a century to establish the administrative system, and we need to take into account civil, military and religious affairs. In short, the Khalkha were divided into numerous banners. Four aymags, which were simultaneously leagues, were just liaisons. There was no such thing as a central government of Outer Mongolia. -- Nanshu ( talk) 13:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Northern Mongolia is simply literal translation of Ar Mongol. It doesn't intend to "elude" anything. There is no political implication in it. I explained it a lot at various places in WP. Gantuya eng ( talk) 10:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The massive expansion of this article - particular for history - is unnecessary. This article should - at most - briefly summarize the Mongolian history articles up to 1921, then hand off to other articles for much of everything after 1921; the articles related to independent Mongolia effectively take over from there. The expansion just duplicates content in other articles using less accessible (non-English) sources. - RovingPersonalityConstruct ( talk, contribs) 02:18, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
I propose merging Outer Mongolia into History of Mongolia. Though its small, that article should merge with the latter while the name section will be moved to the Mongolia#Etymology section. 174.89.100.11 ( talk) 04:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)