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User Marley2289 added text and a link Oct 8 2009 which I removed Oct 20, to an article on Haitian immigrants and their syncretistic practice of Voodoo and Catholicism. I removed the text, after careful consideration and reading/skimming the article. The text/link was placed inappropriately in the introduction section of the article, did not contribute important information and was worded as an opinion, and the article linked does not describe typical devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The article describes Harlem, NY Haitian immigrants' participation in Catholic worship including the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, and their covert inclusion of voodoo elements and interpretations. It is much more about Voodoo than Catholicism (about which the author does not seem to know much nor treat respectfully nor make clear that voodoo beliefs and practices are truly incompatible with faithful Catholic Christianity) I think it's a big stretch to think it belongs in an encyclopedia type article about Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The same user had promoted the same article on a number of mostly Voodoo and Haitian related Wikipedia articles, so I think they were promoting the link rather than sincerely feeling that it informatively enhanced the article. -- Elizdelphi ( talk) 03:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Some IPs continue adding a main page image that is not representative of most of the statues in the world. I have reverted these, and I think the page will need protection if this continues. History2007 ( talk) 17:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm not agree, History2007. The image from Beniaján you want to delete is being showed in the article long time ago (I think it was the first). In fact, this image resumes all the iconography of Our Lady of Mount Carmel: the Scapular and the Purgatory. In the other hand, this photo is one of the most famous carmelites virgins in internet (it's known all around the world). Finally, the image you have choosen for the article is not too clear (where is the Scapular of Mary?). Wich one is more representative? I would like ask about this question to other users. Regards. -- 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 18:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I still think the image not contradict the article. The 'sabbatine' tradition is inserted into the actual list of the indulgences and privileges of the Confraternity of the Scapular of Mount Carmel, as it appeared in old decretes, but it was deleted the prohibition of show Mary in Purgatory. Now (as well as it always was, including during the years of the prohibition) it's one of the most traditional and popular representations of Mary of Mount Carmel. 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 19:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
E. Ripley ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below. Also, please provide an easy link to the two disputed images.
This is a controversial image and not representative of what the Carmelites themselves use. The Sabbatine privilege page clearly states that:
Therefore, a less controversial image must be used for this page, without fires, etc. The fires are not a Carmelite tradition, as the Sabbatine privilege page points out. I think an image similar to what the Carmelites use on their page is more appropriate. This is a page about the Carmelites, we should take a hint from what they use on their websites.
Strategy:
It is simple. The fire image is not representative. It must change. History2007 ( talk) 19:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Essentially, this page talks about Our Lady of Mount Carmel and its iconography, not about the history of the Carmelites and papal decrees. I think we would not eliminate the usual image of the Virgin linked to Purgatory and the Scapular. 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 20:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Here is my summation of the arguments I've taken into consideration and my final thoughts about both them and the disputed image.
History2007 (and, by association, Xanderliptak):I find both arguments somewhat persuasive. Though Xander is correct that we would not allow an entity to dictate what image choices we use, to use a secular comparison, if the Democratic Party decided to suddenly change its image from a donkey to an owl, we'd likely use the new image more prominently (or at least placed higher) than the old one. Of course this is a double-edged sword, because it also in some ways supports Xander's argument; given the balance of history, we certainly wouldn't simply NOT use the old donkey image. Given that, it seems appropriate that a representation of the Purgatory image also be included somewhere, since it was an accurate representation for hundreds of years.
Anon: I find your argument that the Purgatory image should take precedence because the article is primarily about the iconography of Our Lady of Mount Carmel to be curious, since the vast majority of the article describes the image of the scapular and how it relates to current worship. I may be misremembering, but I don't think the article mentions Purgatory anywhere (this should probably be corrected with some historical information, by the way). I can make no judgment about whether the Purgatory image is more popular than the scapular image since no evidence was provided for either side.
Based on the arguments presented here, I would say that the scapular image should feature higher, but that there should also be a place for the Purgatory image. 400 years of its historic use is not nothing and probably deserves some mention in the text, which the Purgatory image could illustrate. Further, it's clear that there are some strong feelings on both sides and I think that it would be a good idea to put this question to the people who participate in WikiProject Catholicism, who may have some opinions and arguments that are better informed by their own theological scholarship than my own. — e. ripley\ talk 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Keep working this out on the talk page guys. This doesn't warrant protection yet but it might if the editing conflicts don't settle down. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
E. Ripley, I think the IP is not coming back, so can we conclude this please? As for Mr Liptak, he is my personal WP:WIKIHOUND from Leo XIII, so do not worry about that yet. History2007 ( talk) 07:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
It must be added that she is the Queen and Patron of Chile, the Chilean armed forces and Carabineros de Chile (Chilean police). -- A2falcone ( talk) 21:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
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Could you add our parish to the list. Our Lady of Mt Carmel I’m Roseto Pa. we will be celebrating 130 years OLMC Big Time Celebration 7/26 thru 7/30 65.78.82.155 ( talk) 14:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Encyclopedic content to be more appropriately sourced:
The Catholic Church has always recognized and appreciated the Holy Scapular, through the lives of many saints and many supreme pontiffs who have recommended and worn it, confirming the goodness and relevance of this sacramental.
Among the most recent popes:
176.200.134.98 ( talk) 17:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
: Check |url=
value (
help)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 16, 2013, July 16, 2014, July 16, 2015, July 16, 2016, and July 16, 2017. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
User Marley2289 added text and a link Oct 8 2009 which I removed Oct 20, to an article on Haitian immigrants and their syncretistic practice of Voodoo and Catholicism. I removed the text, after careful consideration and reading/skimming the article. The text/link was placed inappropriately in the introduction section of the article, did not contribute important information and was worded as an opinion, and the article linked does not describe typical devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The article describes Harlem, NY Haitian immigrants' participation in Catholic worship including the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, and their covert inclusion of voodoo elements and interpretations. It is much more about Voodoo than Catholicism (about which the author does not seem to know much nor treat respectfully nor make clear that voodoo beliefs and practices are truly incompatible with faithful Catholic Christianity) I think it's a big stretch to think it belongs in an encyclopedia type article about Our Lady of Mount Carmel. The same user had promoted the same article on a number of mostly Voodoo and Haitian related Wikipedia articles, so I think they were promoting the link rather than sincerely feeling that it informatively enhanced the article. -- Elizdelphi ( talk) 03:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Some IPs continue adding a main page image that is not representative of most of the statues in the world. I have reverted these, and I think the page will need protection if this continues. History2007 ( talk) 17:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm not agree, History2007. The image from Beniaján you want to delete is being showed in the article long time ago (I think it was the first). In fact, this image resumes all the iconography of Our Lady of Mount Carmel: the Scapular and the Purgatory. In the other hand, this photo is one of the most famous carmelites virgins in internet (it's known all around the world). Finally, the image you have choosen for the article is not too clear (where is the Scapular of Mary?). Wich one is more representative? I would like ask about this question to other users. Regards. -- 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 18:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I still think the image not contradict the article. The 'sabbatine' tradition is inserted into the actual list of the indulgences and privileges of the Confraternity of the Scapular of Mount Carmel, as it appeared in old decretes, but it was deleted the prohibition of show Mary in Purgatory. Now (as well as it always was, including during the years of the prohibition) it's one of the most traditional and popular representations of Mary of Mount Carmel. 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 19:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
E. Ripley ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below. Also, please provide an easy link to the two disputed images.
This is a controversial image and not representative of what the Carmelites themselves use. The Sabbatine privilege page clearly states that:
Therefore, a less controversial image must be used for this page, without fires, etc. The fires are not a Carmelite tradition, as the Sabbatine privilege page points out. I think an image similar to what the Carmelites use on their page is more appropriate. This is a page about the Carmelites, we should take a hint from what they use on their websites.
Strategy:
It is simple. The fire image is not representative. It must change. History2007 ( talk) 19:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Essentially, this page talks about Our Lady of Mount Carmel and its iconography, not about the history of the Carmelites and papal decrees. I think we would not eliminate the usual image of the Virgin linked to Purgatory and the Scapular. 79.145.81.53 ( talk) 20:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Here is my summation of the arguments I've taken into consideration and my final thoughts about both them and the disputed image.
History2007 (and, by association, Xanderliptak):I find both arguments somewhat persuasive. Though Xander is correct that we would not allow an entity to dictate what image choices we use, to use a secular comparison, if the Democratic Party decided to suddenly change its image from a donkey to an owl, we'd likely use the new image more prominently (or at least placed higher) than the old one. Of course this is a double-edged sword, because it also in some ways supports Xander's argument; given the balance of history, we certainly wouldn't simply NOT use the old donkey image. Given that, it seems appropriate that a representation of the Purgatory image also be included somewhere, since it was an accurate representation for hundreds of years.
Anon: I find your argument that the Purgatory image should take precedence because the article is primarily about the iconography of Our Lady of Mount Carmel to be curious, since the vast majority of the article describes the image of the scapular and how it relates to current worship. I may be misremembering, but I don't think the article mentions Purgatory anywhere (this should probably be corrected with some historical information, by the way). I can make no judgment about whether the Purgatory image is more popular than the scapular image since no evidence was provided for either side.
Based on the arguments presented here, I would say that the scapular image should feature higher, but that there should also be a place for the Purgatory image. 400 years of its historic use is not nothing and probably deserves some mention in the text, which the Purgatory image could illustrate. Further, it's clear that there are some strong feelings on both sides and I think that it would be a good idea to put this question to the people who participate in WikiProject Catholicism, who may have some opinions and arguments that are better informed by their own theological scholarship than my own. — e. ripley\ talk 15:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Keep working this out on the talk page guys. This doesn't warrant protection yet but it might if the editing conflicts don't settle down. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
E. Ripley, I think the IP is not coming back, so can we conclude this please? As for Mr Liptak, he is my personal WP:WIKIHOUND from Leo XIII, so do not worry about that yet. History2007 ( talk) 07:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
It must be added that she is the Queen and Patron of Chile, the Chilean armed forces and Carabineros de Chile (Chilean police). -- A2falcone ( talk) 21:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.ocarm.org/pls/ocarm/consultazione.mostra_pagina?id_pagina=648When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Could you add our parish to the list. Our Lady of Mt Carmel I’m Roseto Pa. we will be celebrating 130 years OLMC Big Time Celebration 7/26 thru 7/30 65.78.82.155 ( talk) 14:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Encyclopedic content to be more appropriately sourced:
The Catholic Church has always recognized and appreciated the Holy Scapular, through the lives of many saints and many supreme pontiffs who have recommended and worn it, confirming the goodness and relevance of this sacramental.
Among the most recent popes:
176.200.134.98 ( talk) 17:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check |url=
value (
help)