![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
i removed the poorly written and sourced and unverified controversy section, these are the reasons: removed "CONTROVERSY section" lacks credible sources, poorly written, and the entries are stated as facts even though they are opinions without authentic trusted sources, the sources given is a book that is written almost a century after the apparitions stating personal opinions of the author without giving any credible sources but based on here say, everything presented in the "CONTROVERSY section" are no more than unverified information from a doubtful weak source at best this website is a valuable resource for information to many people, please refrain from tampering with it without enough knowledge, or only based on personal "feelings" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
~~~~
LakesideMiners
Come Talk To Me!
15:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Not sure too sure of merits of who - what - where - of the actual content dispute, but I do not think the reversion was made to the exact place immediately prior to the edit warring. The list of sources had a lot of work done to it recently, and the reversion took it back to a time before that work was done. (I am only sobbing quietly! :-) ) Some of the refs were list-defined so it ended up a bit hit-and-miss. Have done my best to put it back, without reinserting currently disputed material. However, If I have made errors in that regard, please feel free to change, or else advise me, and I will correct.
Also, just to point out to other interested editors, while there are apparent ongoing reversions on changes made by Spyrazzle and Fadi153 - on which I have no opinion - there is another editor (IP) making quite a few changes. Again, while I will leave others to sort out content issues, they remove references, and very upsettingly for a print-disabled user, keep placing <br > line breaks in - ones I specifically removed twice (and always do when I come across them) as they cause accessibility issues. Please see MOS:NOBR, and avoid if at all possible.
For similar reasons, I have refactored and given a new header to the above conversation, as I was having trouble following. Hope that is not stepping over any boundaries. Thanks for listening. AukusRuckus ( talk) 09:05, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
i see you edited the controversy section, which leaves a good impression in my mind that you are not a venomous bigoted atheists just looking to sow strife, i think this will be a good new start for us to talk about the controversy section and make additional changes to it. here is what i suggest:
In the DeMarchi account in his book "The Immaculate Heart" published in 1952 35 years after the apparitions, some sources claimed that the priest who interviewed the children, Dr. Manuel Formigao, was alarmed by the children's discrepant prophesy, where the apparition predicted that the World War I would end on October 13, 1917. "But listen Lúcia," Formigo said, "The war is still going on. The papers give news of battles after the 13th. How can you explain that if our Lady said the war would end that day?" Lúcia replied, "I don’t know; I only know that I heard her say that the war would end on that day ... I said exactly what our Lady had said."[22] Jacinta, the youngest child, was interrogated separately and said the same: "[Mary] said that we were to say the Rosary every day and that the war would end today."[23]
DeMarchi documented that for two full years prior to the deaths of Francisco and Jacinta Marto in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic,[24] the three children refused food and water as a penance, or else drank dirty water in defiance of their mother. DeMarchi also wrote, "In the scorching sun of the serra, when through the bright hours of the day the heat hangs like a hot stove everywhere, they abstained from taking any water through one spell of thirty days, and at another time for nine."[25] and described Jacinta as being hospitalized for severe bronchial illness, after which she confided to her older cousin that she was still abstaining: "I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners."[26][25], but the official cause of death for the two children remains complications from the Flu according to the medical experts that treated them.
In her memoirs, Lucia wrote that the children tied "penitence cords" so tightly around their waists that the ropes became blood-stained,[27] and that in the September 13th apparition, she was told, "God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to sleep with the rope on; only wear it during the day."[28] on one occasion before the 13th July apparition Lucia voiced her concern that she had doubts about the apparitions, Lucia wrote about doubts she expressed as a child regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!"[30], Lucia also writes in her memoirs that the doubts miraculously disappeared on he day of the apparition replaced by fervor to meet the Blessed Mother, these are excerpts from her memoir : ""On the following day, when it was nearly time to leave, I suddenly felt I had to go, impelled by a strange force that I could hardly resist. Then I set out, and called at my uncle’s house to see if Jacinta was still there. I found her in her room, together with her brother Francisco, kneeling beside the bed, crying. “Aren’t you going then?” I asked. “Not without you! We don’t dare. Do come!” “Yes, I’m going,” I replied. Their faces lighted up with joy, and they set out with me. Crowds of people were waiting for us along the road, and only with difficulty did we finally get there. This was the day on which Our Lady deigned to reveal to us the Secret. After that, to revive my flagging fervor" " [1]: 87 "
i believe these changes are very reasonable, professional, show both sides of the story and well sourced, i hope you will review them with open mind and good faith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs)
Spyrazzle ( talk) 18:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
to many witnesses"....also why the unfulfilled prophecy was never mentioned in any other source even though here are many sources out there trying to discredit the apparitions? if you take a step back and think about it logically you find that the evidence for this claim is insufficient.
current: In the DeMarchi account, the priest who interviewed the children during the apparitions, , Dr. Manuel Formigao.
suggested edit: In the DeMarchi account in his book "The Immaculate Heart" published in 1952 35 years after the apparitions, some sources claimed that the priest who interviewed the children.
current: I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners.
suggested edit:I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners."[26][25], but the official cause of death for the two children remains complications from the Flu according to the medical experts that treated them.
current : Lucia also wrote about doubts she expressed as a child regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!".
suggested edit:on one occasion before the 13th July apparition Lucia voiced her concern that she had doubts about the apparitions, Lucia wrote about her doubts regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!"[30], Lucia also writes in her memoirs that the doubts miraculously disappeared on he day of the apparition replaced by fervor to meet the Blessed Mother, these are excerpts from her memoir : ""On the following day, when it was nearly time to leave, I suddenly felt I had to go, impelled by a strange force that I could hardly resist. Then I set out, and called at my uncle’s house to see if Jacinta was still there. I found her in her room, together with her brother Francisco, kneeling beside the bed, crying. “Aren’t you going then?” I asked. “Not without you! We don’t dare. Do come!” “Yes, I’m going,” I replied. Their faces lighted up with joy, and they set out with me. Crowds of people were waiting for us along the road, and only with difficulty did we finally get there. This was the day on which Our Lady deigned to reveal to us the Secret. After that, to revive my flagging fervor".
Also i bring to question this statement in the current version "DeMarchi documented that for two full years prior to the deaths of Francisco and Jacinta Marto in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic,[24] the three children refused food and water as a penance"
this is not what De Marchi wrote, he did mention that the children did miraculous fasting for 30 days "no food or water" and another occasion of 9 days, but the current statement is a personal conclusion by the section writer that the children starved them self for two years which is not what FR. De Marchi states
also please note that some of the points do not merit to be in this section, like a nightmare about the devil!!! or the whole first paragraph about the end of ww1 which was never corroborated by Saint Lucia in her memoirs nor ever mentioned in any other source.
Finally i would like to add that i believe the the freedom of choice is one of the most sacred Gifts humans have, by no means am i trying to modify the article to conform with me religious beliefs, no never, i simply want that facts to be presented truthfully without exaggeration, and let the reader make up his or her own mind. Thank you
Dear Spyrazzle, my issue is not with the sources, nor is it with De Marchi's relation to sister Lucia, it is that the entire article was written with a tone of skepticism, or non committance, except for the controversy section that you wrote, it was written as a matter of fact language, another thing; you said: "questionable, spooky, sadistic apparition" probablly because of the acts of strict penance that was asked of the children, and i understand that that might sound like horrible child abuse to you because of your lack of knowledge of the catholic and many other religious cultures, please allow me to explain, one of the fundamental cores in many religions is mind over matter, meaning that your mind controls your body and its basic animalistic urges, humans can never be free to pursue the divine if they are slaves to the flesh, that is not a catholic concept, in fact it exists thousands of years before Christianity, to strengthen the soul you must tame the body fist, and then nourish the soul through the spirit,and the best time to do it and get into the habit of it is in the younger years of life, it is very hard to change someone who is already a fully grown adult, an infinite number of human issues that we face today can be traced back to severely lax upbringing, in Japan there is a saying that children are like trees, if not straightened and pruned early in life they will be ruined when they grow, if you love someone then you don't want them to grow up to have major issues in life that could have been avoided with proper disciplined upbringing, not one where all the urges and whims of the body are always catered to. how many children suffer from injuries when playing sports, some are even serious energies, and we go on about it like is usual business, but you want to make a huge deal about some blood on penance cord that was tied a bet to tightly, stopping short from comparing it with concentration camps, now i am not God and not all knowing, but i am absolutely welling to bet everything i own even my own life that those two children went up to enjoy eternal glory, happiness and bless so great that no human mind can ever comprehend, i say that is not a bad deal for minor suffering for two years, many of us suffer horribly all our lives and we still don't know where we'll end up when we die, God blessed those two children greatly with what he did to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Dear Spyrazzle i understand that as a protestant you were brain washed to reject everything about our Blessed Mother, but sometimes you have to stand back and question what you were taught because not all of it is true, abstaining from water for 30 is miraculous, but you cant see that, you only see child abuse, maybe according to you Jesus should not have fasted for 40 days, or even crucified, because that is just too painful, when God said "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" he was talking about the animal sacrifices that the Jews did as an outward show of faith but was not accompanied with true change in the soul to reflect God's teachings, it was not sincere, what Jesus said was carry your cross and follow me, other wise how do you explain the tortures lives and deaths of almost all the saints and even the disciples, Jesus suffered through his life and warned his followers that they will face the same, because if the world did not accept the master then it will not accept the servants. The children did die but not because of their miraculous penance and fasting, they died of the flu as God ordained, and finally 50 Hail Maries is one rosary and you are supposed to be reciting them while contemplating on the five mysteries of that day, not just repeating them with an absent mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Spyrazzle you have too much anger and aggression, its is apparent in all your posts, i wish you well — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Fadi153 (
talk •
contribs)
10:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion has been going on since at least October 15, 2021, more than a month ago. It has become frankly toxic, and must not continue in this manner. All parties are warned that continued uncivil behavior will not be tolerated and will be promptly reported to administrators. Possible sanctions include involved users being subject to a WP:Topic ban, prohibiting the editor from future work on Fatima related articles, or even complete revocation of editing privileges on Wikipedia. Name calling and personal attacks ("militant atheist", "agent of the church", "sabotage" etc) WILL NOT be tolerated. Several editors have already been banned from editing the article, but have have abused their continued talk page privileges. The above discussions are closed and future discussion will occur under a new heading in a WP:civil manner, with all editors adhering to WP:Talk page guidelines and WP:Assume good faith. This is a FINAL warning.
The good faith version of the "controversy" section made on October 22 in response to my comments on 18 October 2021 should NOT have been deleted wholesale. The contributing editor removed all content that violated policy. After that revision was posted, I provided specific advice on how to improve the section to meet Wikipedia practices, which was insulted and ignored. Having Now revised the content in the article to address two specific outstanding issues, there are no further grounds to delete the section. Deleting the section again, without a consensus built in a civil discussion, will not be tolerated. Revisions made following ordinary Wikipedia procedure may of course continue be made to refine the content, with specific advise to adhere to avoid WP:Original research and WP:Synth. All content, particularly any controversial statement or claim must be attributed to a specific WP:Reliable source. Dr. DeMarchi's account, and Lucia's memoirs are already frequently cited on this page. They may be used to document what Dr. DeMarchi and Lucia believe about the alleged Fatima miracle. Claims or thesis statements not directly attributable to the source must not be added back.
Insults about good faith edits will not be tolerated. Revisions shall be politely made, or objections with clear and succinct explanations shall be discussed here in a civil manner. – Zfish118⋉ talk 17:08, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The way the children died, prematurely and with bloody cords tied around them, the same week of their deaths, was outlandishly controversial. The children’s quotations on their deathbeds are disturbing and bizarre and they need to be re-inserted back into the controversy section. In a direct quote "Mary" instructed the small children to continue wearing tight cords around their waists, and the children suffered immensely because of those cords, and Lucia herself wrote down her little cousins' agonized words about the cords while they died. The cords that "Mary" wanted them to wear. Please refer to the October 21/22 revision, linked above, to recoup the exact quotations and citations.
The fact that the children were deliberately drinking hazardous water, that their own mother warned would cause them illness, needs to be reinserted back into the text too. It is not okay to simply gloss over it and say sometimes they drank dirty water. What is dirty water? Water with a tiny bit of dirt in it? No, these children died, and we need to write what Lucia wrote -— which is that in addition to going without water for weeks at a time, when they did drink water they elected to drink from a “filthy” pond, used only for animals and laundry, which their mother specifically forbade them from drinking because it was unsafe water that would likely cause illness.
These children died officially from the Spanish Flu, but in Lucia’s own words they were not drinking water for weeks at a time, or they were drinking contaminated water, and even when they were in the hospital they refused water. The CDC, The Center for Disease Control, states clearly that people suffering from the flu need extra fluids to survive, the CDC says that children in particular are likely to be hospitalized if not given enough fluid while experiencing the flu, and that a flu can quickly become lethal for a child who is not drinking enough fluid. That is why these details are controversial. Removing all controversial book quotations from a Wikipedia controversy section is controversial in itself. Spyrazzle ( talk) 18:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Ohnoitsjamie Hello the controversy section now is balanced, fair accurate, comprehensive and with no personal opinions, i have no more complaints, i thank you for your fair arbitration, i will direct all future comments if needed to you Mr. Ohnoitsjamie, since i am starting to feel very uncomfortable talking with Spyrazzle due to the aggressive, angry and stubborn tone that i get from all his\her posts. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 14:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Absent any objections, I would like to delete the category, "Angelic Apparitions", as Roman Catholicism does not consider Mary to be an angel. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
i removed the poorly written and sourced and unverified controversy section, these are the reasons: removed "CONTROVERSY section" lacks credible sources, poorly written, and the entries are stated as facts even though they are opinions without authentic trusted sources, the sources given is a book that is written almost a century after the apparitions stating personal opinions of the author without giving any credible sources but based on here say, everything presented in the "CONTROVERSY section" are no more than unverified information from a doubtful weak source at best this website is a valuable resource for information to many people, please refrain from tampering with it without enough knowledge, or only based on personal "feelings" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
~~~~
LakesideMiners
Come Talk To Me!
15:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Not sure too sure of merits of who - what - where - of the actual content dispute, but I do not think the reversion was made to the exact place immediately prior to the edit warring. The list of sources had a lot of work done to it recently, and the reversion took it back to a time before that work was done. (I am only sobbing quietly! :-) ) Some of the refs were list-defined so it ended up a bit hit-and-miss. Have done my best to put it back, without reinserting currently disputed material. However, If I have made errors in that regard, please feel free to change, or else advise me, and I will correct.
Also, just to point out to other interested editors, while there are apparent ongoing reversions on changes made by Spyrazzle and Fadi153 - on which I have no opinion - there is another editor (IP) making quite a few changes. Again, while I will leave others to sort out content issues, they remove references, and very upsettingly for a print-disabled user, keep placing <br > line breaks in - ones I specifically removed twice (and always do when I come across them) as they cause accessibility issues. Please see MOS:NOBR, and avoid if at all possible.
For similar reasons, I have refactored and given a new header to the above conversation, as I was having trouble following. Hope that is not stepping over any boundaries. Thanks for listening. AukusRuckus ( talk) 09:05, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
i see you edited the controversy section, which leaves a good impression in my mind that you are not a venomous bigoted atheists just looking to sow strife, i think this will be a good new start for us to talk about the controversy section and make additional changes to it. here is what i suggest:
In the DeMarchi account in his book "The Immaculate Heart" published in 1952 35 years after the apparitions, some sources claimed that the priest who interviewed the children, Dr. Manuel Formigao, was alarmed by the children's discrepant prophesy, where the apparition predicted that the World War I would end on October 13, 1917. "But listen Lúcia," Formigo said, "The war is still going on. The papers give news of battles after the 13th. How can you explain that if our Lady said the war would end that day?" Lúcia replied, "I don’t know; I only know that I heard her say that the war would end on that day ... I said exactly what our Lady had said."[22] Jacinta, the youngest child, was interrogated separately and said the same: "[Mary] said that we were to say the Rosary every day and that the war would end today."[23]
DeMarchi documented that for two full years prior to the deaths of Francisco and Jacinta Marto in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic,[24] the three children refused food and water as a penance, or else drank dirty water in defiance of their mother. DeMarchi also wrote, "In the scorching sun of the serra, when through the bright hours of the day the heat hangs like a hot stove everywhere, they abstained from taking any water through one spell of thirty days, and at another time for nine."[25] and described Jacinta as being hospitalized for severe bronchial illness, after which she confided to her older cousin that she was still abstaining: "I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners."[26][25], but the official cause of death for the two children remains complications from the Flu according to the medical experts that treated them.
In her memoirs, Lucia wrote that the children tied "penitence cords" so tightly around their waists that the ropes became blood-stained,[27] and that in the September 13th apparition, she was told, "God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to sleep with the rope on; only wear it during the day."[28] on one occasion before the 13th July apparition Lucia voiced her concern that she had doubts about the apparitions, Lucia wrote about doubts she expressed as a child regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!"[30], Lucia also writes in her memoirs that the doubts miraculously disappeared on he day of the apparition replaced by fervor to meet the Blessed Mother, these are excerpts from her memoir : ""On the following day, when it was nearly time to leave, I suddenly felt I had to go, impelled by a strange force that I could hardly resist. Then I set out, and called at my uncle’s house to see if Jacinta was still there. I found her in her room, together with her brother Francisco, kneeling beside the bed, crying. “Aren’t you going then?” I asked. “Not without you! We don’t dare. Do come!” “Yes, I’m going,” I replied. Their faces lighted up with joy, and they set out with me. Crowds of people were waiting for us along the road, and only with difficulty did we finally get there. This was the day on which Our Lady deigned to reveal to us the Secret. After that, to revive my flagging fervor" " [1]: 87 "
i believe these changes are very reasonable, professional, show both sides of the story and well sourced, i hope you will review them with open mind and good faith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs)
Spyrazzle ( talk) 18:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
to many witnesses"....also why the unfulfilled prophecy was never mentioned in any other source even though here are many sources out there trying to discredit the apparitions? if you take a step back and think about it logically you find that the evidence for this claim is insufficient.
current: In the DeMarchi account, the priest who interviewed the children during the apparitions, , Dr. Manuel Formigao.
suggested edit: In the DeMarchi account in his book "The Immaculate Heart" published in 1952 35 years after the apparitions, some sources claimed that the priest who interviewed the children.
current: I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners.
suggested edit:I was thirsty, Lúcia, and I didn’t drink, and so I offered it to Jesus for sinners."[26][25], but the official cause of death for the two children remains complications from the Flu according to the medical experts that treated them.
current : Lucia also wrote about doubts she expressed as a child regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!".
suggested edit:on one occasion before the 13th July apparition Lucia voiced her concern that she had doubts about the apparitions, Lucia wrote about her doubts regarding the authenticity of the apparition. She wrote, "I began then to have doubts as to whether these manifestations might be from the devil ... truly, ever since I had started seeing these things, our home was no longer the same, for joy and peace had fled. What anguish I felt!"[29] She also describes a vivid nightmare she experienced during this time period wherein "the devil was laughing at having deceived me."[29] DeMarchi states that Lúcia once told her cousin, "If [Mary] asks for me, Jacinta, you tell her why I’m not there. Because I am afraid it is the Devil who sends her to us!"[30], Lucia also writes in her memoirs that the doubts miraculously disappeared on he day of the apparition replaced by fervor to meet the Blessed Mother, these are excerpts from her memoir : ""On the following day, when it was nearly time to leave, I suddenly felt I had to go, impelled by a strange force that I could hardly resist. Then I set out, and called at my uncle’s house to see if Jacinta was still there. I found her in her room, together with her brother Francisco, kneeling beside the bed, crying. “Aren’t you going then?” I asked. “Not without you! We don’t dare. Do come!” “Yes, I’m going,” I replied. Their faces lighted up with joy, and they set out with me. Crowds of people were waiting for us along the road, and only with difficulty did we finally get there. This was the day on which Our Lady deigned to reveal to us the Secret. After that, to revive my flagging fervor".
Also i bring to question this statement in the current version "DeMarchi documented that for two full years prior to the deaths of Francisco and Jacinta Marto in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic,[24] the three children refused food and water as a penance"
this is not what De Marchi wrote, he did mention that the children did miraculous fasting for 30 days "no food or water" and another occasion of 9 days, but the current statement is a personal conclusion by the section writer that the children starved them self for two years which is not what FR. De Marchi states
also please note that some of the points do not merit to be in this section, like a nightmare about the devil!!! or the whole first paragraph about the end of ww1 which was never corroborated by Saint Lucia in her memoirs nor ever mentioned in any other source.
Finally i would like to add that i believe the the freedom of choice is one of the most sacred Gifts humans have, by no means am i trying to modify the article to conform with me religious beliefs, no never, i simply want that facts to be presented truthfully without exaggeration, and let the reader make up his or her own mind. Thank you
Dear Spyrazzle, my issue is not with the sources, nor is it with De Marchi's relation to sister Lucia, it is that the entire article was written with a tone of skepticism, or non committance, except for the controversy section that you wrote, it was written as a matter of fact language, another thing; you said: "questionable, spooky, sadistic apparition" probablly because of the acts of strict penance that was asked of the children, and i understand that that might sound like horrible child abuse to you because of your lack of knowledge of the catholic and many other religious cultures, please allow me to explain, one of the fundamental cores in many religions is mind over matter, meaning that your mind controls your body and its basic animalistic urges, humans can never be free to pursue the divine if they are slaves to the flesh, that is not a catholic concept, in fact it exists thousands of years before Christianity, to strengthen the soul you must tame the body fist, and then nourish the soul through the spirit,and the best time to do it and get into the habit of it is in the younger years of life, it is very hard to change someone who is already a fully grown adult, an infinite number of human issues that we face today can be traced back to severely lax upbringing, in Japan there is a saying that children are like trees, if not straightened and pruned early in life they will be ruined when they grow, if you love someone then you don't want them to grow up to have major issues in life that could have been avoided with proper disciplined upbringing, not one where all the urges and whims of the body are always catered to. how many children suffer from injuries when playing sports, some are even serious energies, and we go on about it like is usual business, but you want to make a huge deal about some blood on penance cord that was tied a bet to tightly, stopping short from comparing it with concentration camps, now i am not God and not all knowing, but i am absolutely welling to bet everything i own even my own life that those two children went up to enjoy eternal glory, happiness and bless so great that no human mind can ever comprehend, i say that is not a bad deal for minor suffering for two years, many of us suffer horribly all our lives and we still don't know where we'll end up when we die, God blessed those two children greatly with what he did to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Dear Spyrazzle i understand that as a protestant you were brain washed to reject everything about our Blessed Mother, but sometimes you have to stand back and question what you were taught because not all of it is true, abstaining from water for 30 is miraculous, but you cant see that, you only see child abuse, maybe according to you Jesus should not have fasted for 40 days, or even crucified, because that is just too painful, when God said "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" he was talking about the animal sacrifices that the Jews did as an outward show of faith but was not accompanied with true change in the soul to reflect God's teachings, it was not sincere, what Jesus said was carry your cross and follow me, other wise how do you explain the tortures lives and deaths of almost all the saints and even the disciples, Jesus suffered through his life and warned his followers that they will face the same, because if the world did not accept the master then it will not accept the servants. The children did die but not because of their miraculous penance and fasting, they died of the flu as God ordained, and finally 50 Hail Maries is one rosary and you are supposed to be reciting them while contemplating on the five mysteries of that day, not just repeating them with an absent mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 22:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Spyrazzle you have too much anger and aggression, its is apparent in all your posts, i wish you well — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Fadi153 (
talk •
contribs)
10:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion has been going on since at least October 15, 2021, more than a month ago. It has become frankly toxic, and must not continue in this manner. All parties are warned that continued uncivil behavior will not be tolerated and will be promptly reported to administrators. Possible sanctions include involved users being subject to a WP:Topic ban, prohibiting the editor from future work on Fatima related articles, or even complete revocation of editing privileges on Wikipedia. Name calling and personal attacks ("militant atheist", "agent of the church", "sabotage" etc) WILL NOT be tolerated. Several editors have already been banned from editing the article, but have have abused their continued talk page privileges. The above discussions are closed and future discussion will occur under a new heading in a WP:civil manner, with all editors adhering to WP:Talk page guidelines and WP:Assume good faith. This is a FINAL warning.
The good faith version of the "controversy" section made on October 22 in response to my comments on 18 October 2021 should NOT have been deleted wholesale. The contributing editor removed all content that violated policy. After that revision was posted, I provided specific advice on how to improve the section to meet Wikipedia practices, which was insulted and ignored. Having Now revised the content in the article to address two specific outstanding issues, there are no further grounds to delete the section. Deleting the section again, without a consensus built in a civil discussion, will not be tolerated. Revisions made following ordinary Wikipedia procedure may of course continue be made to refine the content, with specific advise to adhere to avoid WP:Original research and WP:Synth. All content, particularly any controversial statement or claim must be attributed to a specific WP:Reliable source. Dr. DeMarchi's account, and Lucia's memoirs are already frequently cited on this page. They may be used to document what Dr. DeMarchi and Lucia believe about the alleged Fatima miracle. Claims or thesis statements not directly attributable to the source must not be added back.
Insults about good faith edits will not be tolerated. Revisions shall be politely made, or objections with clear and succinct explanations shall be discussed here in a civil manner. – Zfish118⋉ talk 17:08, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The way the children died, prematurely and with bloody cords tied around them, the same week of their deaths, was outlandishly controversial. The children’s quotations on their deathbeds are disturbing and bizarre and they need to be re-inserted back into the controversy section. In a direct quote "Mary" instructed the small children to continue wearing tight cords around their waists, and the children suffered immensely because of those cords, and Lucia herself wrote down her little cousins' agonized words about the cords while they died. The cords that "Mary" wanted them to wear. Please refer to the October 21/22 revision, linked above, to recoup the exact quotations and citations.
The fact that the children were deliberately drinking hazardous water, that their own mother warned would cause them illness, needs to be reinserted back into the text too. It is not okay to simply gloss over it and say sometimes they drank dirty water. What is dirty water? Water with a tiny bit of dirt in it? No, these children died, and we need to write what Lucia wrote -— which is that in addition to going without water for weeks at a time, when they did drink water they elected to drink from a “filthy” pond, used only for animals and laundry, which their mother specifically forbade them from drinking because it was unsafe water that would likely cause illness.
These children died officially from the Spanish Flu, but in Lucia’s own words they were not drinking water for weeks at a time, or they were drinking contaminated water, and even when they were in the hospital they refused water. The CDC, The Center for Disease Control, states clearly that people suffering from the flu need extra fluids to survive, the CDC says that children in particular are likely to be hospitalized if not given enough fluid while experiencing the flu, and that a flu can quickly become lethal for a child who is not drinking enough fluid. That is why these details are controversial. Removing all controversial book quotations from a Wikipedia controversy section is controversial in itself. Spyrazzle ( talk) 18:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Ohnoitsjamie Hello the controversy section now is balanced, fair accurate, comprehensive and with no personal opinions, i have no more complaints, i thank you for your fair arbitration, i will direct all future comments if needed to you Mr. Ohnoitsjamie, since i am starting to feel very uncomfortable talking with Spyrazzle due to the aggressive, angry and stubborn tone that i get from all his\her posts. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadi153 ( talk • contribs) 14:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Absent any objections, I would like to delete the category, "Angelic Apparitions", as Roman Catholicism does not consider Mary to be an angel. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)