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Guys, 20,000 Ottoman troops were fighting Ali Pasha. That's is lot of them and could have strangled the newborn revolution —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konya, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia . At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
in 1821 the greek revolution started. Greece declared its independence in 1928.
Acording to Adam Carr the paintings which were in the “Ottoman Greece” article are propaganda and insists that they be removed, now Adam Carr please explain how in your eyes these paintings [1] [2] [3] [4] which are all authentic and were painted during or shortly afer the Ottoman Occupation of Greece are Propaganda, and why they should be removed from the article? Brastite 02:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
The images are highly romanticised version of the events, or alleged events, of Greek history, and were clearly commissioned to present the Greeks as martyrs to the evil Ottomans or else in a heroic light. They are in that sense propaganda. Since there are no images presenting the Ottomans in a positive light, they are a violation of NPOV. Now I look at them closely they also appear to have copyright warnings on them so they are probably copyright violations as well. Adam 11:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
"The Greek language absorbed a considerable number of Turkish words, and Greek music and other elements of Greek folk culture were heavily influenced by that of the Turks." period. No need to extend this simple sentence to a long and obscure paragraph that carries less information. "Many Greeks during the Ottoman period were multi-lingual and utilized words from the various cultures they came into contact with through trade", yes, this is true, of course. But this is true for every single population in this world, and this is an article about Ottoman Greece. Also, I can bet that the French language or the Romanian folklore didn't had the same influence on Greek language, no matter how many Greeks spoke French or Romanian because they traded with French people or Romanian people. GhePeU 18:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
That all may or may not be true, but it is not really relevant to the point being made in this article, which is simply that during the centuries when the Greeks lived under ottoman rule, they borrowed some Turkish words and acquired some Turkish habits. This does not need a great "historical, sociological, and geopolitical" explanation. It's a simple fact which can and should be stated simply. More complex discussion belongs in the History of the Greek Language article. Adam 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anatolia is not part of Greece, in case you had forgotten. Adam 15:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Adam 16:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi folks, may I make a small suggestion: could you stop edit warring and instead invest your time in finding good references for this article? I do think that both sides have a point about some of the edits they've been making, and at the same time, a lot of the material in question needs NPOV streamlining. But you guys seem to be locked in a conflict that makes it a bit difficult to discuss these things and stay WP:COOL right now. I'm too busy to try my hand on the article myself right now, but I might give it a look during the weekend. Take care, Lukas (T.| @) 10:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I am quite happy to have anyone edit this article to make it better. I don't claim to know everything there is to know about Greek history, as I have demonstrated at numerous articles over several years editing on this subject. However I will continue to revert the off-topic, long-winded, pretentious garbage that this person has been adding to the article. Adam 11:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Deucalionite, I have reverted your last edit that read like this:
I did this because I think it sounds apologetic, like "yeah ottoman beys were at times and at places kinder to peasants than the former greek roman nobles, but the peasants were ethnically minded, don't worry about that!". Also it sounds "Paparigopoulean" if you excuse the neologism (to "ignorant Franks" ;) Paparigopoulos is a classical modern Greek historian, who wrote the (IMHO too ethnically correct) "History of the Greek Nation"). I mean, it is a blanket statement that says that all Greeks thought that way. We both know of large Greek populations that converted to Islam and their descendants are considered Turks. Yes there were (many) places where the Greeks clung to their ethnic and religous (mostly the latter) identity and did acknowledge the power of the Sultan as foreign rule. But that was not the case in many instances such as the above. I could also remind you to the preaching of st. Kosmas Aitolos, who went under all that trouble to arouse the national feeling among Greeks. To conclude I'd like to say that I believe that the ottoman era is not the black and white pattern our official history says it is, rather a greyish (if not multicoloured) hue. And then I step down form the soapbox.
PS. Is "cognizance" really a word?? -- Michalis Famelis 03:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I saw you had added some more stuff that I felt needed fixing. Here I will give my reasons. Firstly, you don't have to be apologetic again for "why didn't the Greeks revolt against the paidomazoma". You don't have to say "that happened because...", you just need to state the facts and the reader will draw their own conclusions. I changed that part to reflect this idea. Then, I removed all that "ethnical, cultural, linguistic and racial" prefix about the church preserving the Greek culture. I doubt there are such things as "racial heritage" or "ethnical" heritage". What could anyone mean by those? Is not cultural, linguistic and religous heritage the very idea of what an Ethnos is? Anyway, exactly because we can disagree forever about this, I just left "heritage" there, as I think it covers them all and does not need to be at all clarified, as it has a strong meaning on its own. I also remove the prefix "Greek" from "Orthodox Church". This is rather POVish of me, but the truth is I never quite understood that prefix (understood in a christian manner I mean). The Church is universal, "there exists no Jew or Greek" say the scriptures. If I callmyself Orthodox I cannot tolerate any ethnic prefix before the Body of my Lord, eh? Off the soapbox again. -- Michalis Famelis 03:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and a last one: that story with the behadings in Thessaloniki? Please cite the resource. That's why we got that blue tag over the article! -- Michalis Famelis 03:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Palaion Patron Germanos did no such thing as proclaim the beggining of the Revolution. It started a good two weeks before the 25th of March, and Germanos was opposed to it anyway. It has been claimed repeatedly that in fact, no one was at Lavra monastery on the 25th of March. Any association to that date was brough in later, to connect it with the religious ceremony. In fact, the only reason the rebellion started in March was that it was the beggining of spring. You don't normally make war in winter. On another note, it is misleading to say that the church was responsible for the Greeks. In fact, it was responsible for all Romioi (Romans), that is all Orthodox people, whether they were Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian or anything else. Druworos 13:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Germanos did proclaim the revolution in Patras on the 25th and was not opposed to it. But this is of minor importance in this article.
Germanos is the constant target of some Greek-speaking marxists who are trying to re-write a history of the Revolution as a .... "conflict of classes". However, the Italians who had a good contact with Patras, knew first-hand that Germanos was the local leader of the Revolution:
Source: Giornale della provincia Bresciana, 11 Ιουνίου 1821, p. 1 [5]
One more Italian source: "Ne' primi giorni d' Aprile [new calendar]... I greci presero le armi ... Poco dopo comparve il loro vescovo con 3 a 4 m. contadini armati. La bandiera bianca colla croce greca fu inalberata sulla piazza maggiore, ... ".
Source: Gazzetta de Milano, 17-6-1821 (new calendar)
[6]
For the rest of us (as the last user said), the case is of minor importance. Germanos was just one of the many priests military commanders, and the Revolution was mainly ethnic-religious.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 11:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
the legend of the first picture might be somehow misleading. according to some sources,in some cases, the parents wanted their children to become janissaries because this could guarantee their social ascension.-- Greece666 15:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"The Orthodox Church assisted in the preservation of the Greek heritage." Well I removed that because it is not quite true. The orthodox church for many years before and at the time of the ottoman empire hunted the "ethnikoi" that is greeks who still believed in the ancient twelve gods. So the orthodox preserved only what was in accordance with the orthodox religion or distorted many things to its favor.
The following was first editted in Talk:Kalymnos: [...] sometimes, when trying to be "politically correct", some wikipedians fall in unhistorical traps: there is the article Ottoman Greece, named after a term that is in fact not used. a simple google search (by using Google.uk and not Google.gr for obvious reasons) reveals that Ottoman Greece gives just 623 hits, but "Ottoman occupation" Greece gives 21,900 hits... Same thing appears in a Google Book search 52 and 235 hits respectively... In addition, "Turkish occupation" Greece gives 107,000 hits!. Thus I propose the rename of the article into "Ottoman Occupation of Greece" or "Turkish Occupation of Greece". Hectorian 13:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what the rename is, this article needs a major update, describing not the history of 'Greece' (which has always simply referred to a geographical part of the Balkan peninsula - part of the larger 'Greek World'), but rather, the History of Greeks under Ottoman Rule, be they in Antolia or other parts of the Balkans. Perhaps describing the events that led up to the independence struggle as well?
Just read these, sorry that I couldn't find in English
Applying the 'History of Greece' to = 'History of the Greeks' is a flawed process of historiography as has been demonstrated over at the Byzantine Empire article. Perhaps we should rename this 'Greek Millet' or 'Greek Millet of the Ottoman Empire' or something along those lines so we can have more room to expand this article?-- EOKA-Assasin 18:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
No, this article covers the Ottoman rule of what is now Greece; Greek millet wouldn't mean the same thing since it would also include the Ottoman Greeks living in other parts of the Empire. This article is a component of the "History of Greece" series. In any case, any derivitaves should also be avoided in this article.. Baristarim 22:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I did a short reading of greek history under the ottomans not heroes no big fights not cultural rezitence it looks like the greeks did not exist in that time and if they exist were not found in the today greece . the greeks should clarify what did they did 400 years under the turkish invasion. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
193.10.6.101 (
talk) 15:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Edward Dodwell has a good picures about ottoman greece.Thanks--
25px
3210
(T) 08:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
The digitalized books of Dodwell are here [10]. Brilliand gravures but mostly landscapes and classical buildings. Some good ones about everyday life.
I've rewritten the lead sentence, not to make any historical or political point, but to clarify some potential confusions. The old version read:
"Most of the territories today within modern Greece's borders were at least once part of the Ottoman Empire from the mid-15th century until its declaration of independence in 1821, a historical period also known as Tourkokratia..."
The problems with this are 1)"at least once" makes it sound like some areas were Ottoman only once and others more than once, 2) the antecedent of "its" is unclear, and 3) it should be made clearer that the term Tourkokratia applies to Ottoman rule specifically in Greece, not in all the other areas of Ottoman rule. My version may not be perfect and I won't object to revisions, but I hope editors will keep in mind what I've said about clarity. Littlewindow ( talk) 16:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the "Inconclusive fighting ..." passage should stay, though I also agree that a citation is needed. "Amongst" I think while not wrong is now increasingly considered unidiomatic even in British English -- the situation was never as simple as "among" = American and "amongst" = British, despite what some books will tell you -- but leave it if you want to. Littlewindow ( talk) 23:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
The section on "Administration" is full of problems. First of all, it relies on several inappropriate sources. Woodhouse, the main source for the section, was not a scholarly historian. He shouldn't be relied upon for an encyclopedia article - we should use books written by modern professional historians. Robert Waterfield is a scholar of Classical Greece, not a specialist on Ottoman Greece. It is not good to rely on him either, but perhaps slightly better than Woodhouse. In any case, this section is filled with inaccuracies. For instance, the notion that the Ottoman cavalry was entirely "Turkish" (whatever that means); in fact Christians were serving as cavalrymen as late as the sixteenth century. The statement that "No Greek's word could stand against a Turk's in a law court" is just plain false, and that "there were many repressive laws" is too vague - the reader should know what exactly is meant by this. Otherwise it amounts to nothing more than an NPOV statement that "the Ottomans were bad." I've tagged the section as having problems and will try to find the time to fix some of it shortly. Chamboz ( talk) 23:38, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like Greek Nationalist history. There are vague claims characterizing centuries of Ottoman rule as burdensome and oppressive, citing national histories of Greece rather than the work of historians who study the Ottoman Empire, as well as a lot of other features one expects to see in nationalist histories, such as references to the desire of the "Greek people" to be free - as if all Greeks shared in a collective national consciousness, or were some sort of hive-mind. Some examples:
"The Greeks with the one hand were given some privileges and freedom; with the other they were exposed to a tyranny deriving from the malpractices of its administrative personnel over which the central government had only remote and incomplete control."
"There were many repressive laws, and occasionally the Ottoman government committed massacres against the civilian population."
"The economic situation of the majority of Greece deteriorated heavily during the Ottoman era of the country. Life became ruralized and militarized. Heavy burdens of taxation were placed on the Christian population, and many Greeks were reduced to subsistence farming whereas during prior eras the region had been heavily developed and urbanized."
"Greeks heavily resented the declining economic situation in their country during the Ottoman era."
All the above quotes characterize hundreds and hundreds of years of Ottoman rule in simple negative statements with no nuance whatsoever. This is unsurprising given the tendency of nationalist historians to see the Ottoman period as a dark age. And of course, the segment on the independence of Greece is longer than the segment actually covering Greece in the Ottoman Empire, which is what the article is ostensibly about. Chamboz ( talk) 22:12, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
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Guys, 20,000 Ottoman troops were fighting Ali Pasha. That's is lot of them and could have strangled the newborn revolution —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konya, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia . At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
in 1821 the greek revolution started. Greece declared its independence in 1928.
Acording to Adam Carr the paintings which were in the “Ottoman Greece” article are propaganda and insists that they be removed, now Adam Carr please explain how in your eyes these paintings [1] [2] [3] [4] which are all authentic and were painted during or shortly afer the Ottoman Occupation of Greece are Propaganda, and why they should be removed from the article? Brastite 02:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
The images are highly romanticised version of the events, or alleged events, of Greek history, and were clearly commissioned to present the Greeks as martyrs to the evil Ottomans or else in a heroic light. They are in that sense propaganda. Since there are no images presenting the Ottomans in a positive light, they are a violation of NPOV. Now I look at them closely they also appear to have copyright warnings on them so they are probably copyright violations as well. Adam 11:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
"The Greek language absorbed a considerable number of Turkish words, and Greek music and other elements of Greek folk culture were heavily influenced by that of the Turks." period. No need to extend this simple sentence to a long and obscure paragraph that carries less information. "Many Greeks during the Ottoman period were multi-lingual and utilized words from the various cultures they came into contact with through trade", yes, this is true, of course. But this is true for every single population in this world, and this is an article about Ottoman Greece. Also, I can bet that the French language or the Romanian folklore didn't had the same influence on Greek language, no matter how many Greeks spoke French or Romanian because they traded with French people or Romanian people. GhePeU 18:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
That all may or may not be true, but it is not really relevant to the point being made in this article, which is simply that during the centuries when the Greeks lived under ottoman rule, they borrowed some Turkish words and acquired some Turkish habits. This does not need a great "historical, sociological, and geopolitical" explanation. It's a simple fact which can and should be stated simply. More complex discussion belongs in the History of the Greek Language article. Adam 03:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Anatolia is not part of Greece, in case you had forgotten. Adam 15:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Adam 16:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi folks, may I make a small suggestion: could you stop edit warring and instead invest your time in finding good references for this article? I do think that both sides have a point about some of the edits they've been making, and at the same time, a lot of the material in question needs NPOV streamlining. But you guys seem to be locked in a conflict that makes it a bit difficult to discuss these things and stay WP:COOL right now. I'm too busy to try my hand on the article myself right now, but I might give it a look during the weekend. Take care, Lukas (T.| @) 10:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I am quite happy to have anyone edit this article to make it better. I don't claim to know everything there is to know about Greek history, as I have demonstrated at numerous articles over several years editing on this subject. However I will continue to revert the off-topic, long-winded, pretentious garbage that this person has been adding to the article. Adam 11:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Deucalionite, I have reverted your last edit that read like this:
I did this because I think it sounds apologetic, like "yeah ottoman beys were at times and at places kinder to peasants than the former greek roman nobles, but the peasants were ethnically minded, don't worry about that!". Also it sounds "Paparigopoulean" if you excuse the neologism (to "ignorant Franks" ;) Paparigopoulos is a classical modern Greek historian, who wrote the (IMHO too ethnically correct) "History of the Greek Nation"). I mean, it is a blanket statement that says that all Greeks thought that way. We both know of large Greek populations that converted to Islam and their descendants are considered Turks. Yes there were (many) places where the Greeks clung to their ethnic and religous (mostly the latter) identity and did acknowledge the power of the Sultan as foreign rule. But that was not the case in many instances such as the above. I could also remind you to the preaching of st. Kosmas Aitolos, who went under all that trouble to arouse the national feeling among Greeks. To conclude I'd like to say that I believe that the ottoman era is not the black and white pattern our official history says it is, rather a greyish (if not multicoloured) hue. And then I step down form the soapbox.
PS. Is "cognizance" really a word?? -- Michalis Famelis 03:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I saw you had added some more stuff that I felt needed fixing. Here I will give my reasons. Firstly, you don't have to be apologetic again for "why didn't the Greeks revolt against the paidomazoma". You don't have to say "that happened because...", you just need to state the facts and the reader will draw their own conclusions. I changed that part to reflect this idea. Then, I removed all that "ethnical, cultural, linguistic and racial" prefix about the church preserving the Greek culture. I doubt there are such things as "racial heritage" or "ethnical" heritage". What could anyone mean by those? Is not cultural, linguistic and religous heritage the very idea of what an Ethnos is? Anyway, exactly because we can disagree forever about this, I just left "heritage" there, as I think it covers them all and does not need to be at all clarified, as it has a strong meaning on its own. I also remove the prefix "Greek" from "Orthodox Church". This is rather POVish of me, but the truth is I never quite understood that prefix (understood in a christian manner I mean). The Church is universal, "there exists no Jew or Greek" say the scriptures. If I callmyself Orthodox I cannot tolerate any ethnic prefix before the Body of my Lord, eh? Off the soapbox again. -- Michalis Famelis 03:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and a last one: that story with the behadings in Thessaloniki? Please cite the resource. That's why we got that blue tag over the article! -- Michalis Famelis 03:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Palaion Patron Germanos did no such thing as proclaim the beggining of the Revolution. It started a good two weeks before the 25th of March, and Germanos was opposed to it anyway. It has been claimed repeatedly that in fact, no one was at Lavra monastery on the 25th of March. Any association to that date was brough in later, to connect it with the religious ceremony. In fact, the only reason the rebellion started in March was that it was the beggining of spring. You don't normally make war in winter. On another note, it is misleading to say that the church was responsible for the Greeks. In fact, it was responsible for all Romioi (Romans), that is all Orthodox people, whether they were Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian or anything else. Druworos 13:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Germanos did proclaim the revolution in Patras on the 25th and was not opposed to it. But this is of minor importance in this article.
Germanos is the constant target of some Greek-speaking marxists who are trying to re-write a history of the Revolution as a .... "conflict of classes". However, the Italians who had a good contact with Patras, knew first-hand that Germanos was the local leader of the Revolution:
Source: Giornale della provincia Bresciana, 11 Ιουνίου 1821, p. 1 [5]
One more Italian source: "Ne' primi giorni d' Aprile [new calendar]... I greci presero le armi ... Poco dopo comparve il loro vescovo con 3 a 4 m. contadini armati. La bandiera bianca colla croce greca fu inalberata sulla piazza maggiore, ... ".
Source: Gazzetta de Milano, 17-6-1821 (new calendar)
[6]
For the rest of us (as the last user said), the case is of minor importance. Germanos was just one of the many priests military commanders, and the Revolution was mainly ethnic-religious.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 11:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
the legend of the first picture might be somehow misleading. according to some sources,in some cases, the parents wanted their children to become janissaries because this could guarantee their social ascension.-- Greece666 15:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"The Orthodox Church assisted in the preservation of the Greek heritage." Well I removed that because it is not quite true. The orthodox church for many years before and at the time of the ottoman empire hunted the "ethnikoi" that is greeks who still believed in the ancient twelve gods. So the orthodox preserved only what was in accordance with the orthodox religion or distorted many things to its favor.
The following was first editted in Talk:Kalymnos: [...] sometimes, when trying to be "politically correct", some wikipedians fall in unhistorical traps: there is the article Ottoman Greece, named after a term that is in fact not used. a simple google search (by using Google.uk and not Google.gr for obvious reasons) reveals that Ottoman Greece gives just 623 hits, but "Ottoman occupation" Greece gives 21,900 hits... Same thing appears in a Google Book search 52 and 235 hits respectively... In addition, "Turkish occupation" Greece gives 107,000 hits!. Thus I propose the rename of the article into "Ottoman Occupation of Greece" or "Turkish Occupation of Greece". Hectorian 13:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what the rename is, this article needs a major update, describing not the history of 'Greece' (which has always simply referred to a geographical part of the Balkan peninsula - part of the larger 'Greek World'), but rather, the History of Greeks under Ottoman Rule, be they in Antolia or other parts of the Balkans. Perhaps describing the events that led up to the independence struggle as well?
Just read these, sorry that I couldn't find in English
Applying the 'History of Greece' to = 'History of the Greeks' is a flawed process of historiography as has been demonstrated over at the Byzantine Empire article. Perhaps we should rename this 'Greek Millet' or 'Greek Millet of the Ottoman Empire' or something along those lines so we can have more room to expand this article?-- EOKA-Assasin 18:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
No, this article covers the Ottoman rule of what is now Greece; Greek millet wouldn't mean the same thing since it would also include the Ottoman Greeks living in other parts of the Empire. This article is a component of the "History of Greece" series. In any case, any derivitaves should also be avoided in this article.. Baristarim 22:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I did a short reading of greek history under the ottomans not heroes no big fights not cultural rezitence it looks like the greeks did not exist in that time and if they exist were not found in the today greece . the greeks should clarify what did they did 400 years under the turkish invasion. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
193.10.6.101 (
talk) 15:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Edward Dodwell has a good picures about ottoman greece.Thanks--
25px
3210
(T) 08:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
The digitalized books of Dodwell are here [10]. Brilliand gravures but mostly landscapes and classical buildings. Some good ones about everyday life.
I've rewritten the lead sentence, not to make any historical or political point, but to clarify some potential confusions. The old version read:
"Most of the territories today within modern Greece's borders were at least once part of the Ottoman Empire from the mid-15th century until its declaration of independence in 1821, a historical period also known as Tourkokratia..."
The problems with this are 1)"at least once" makes it sound like some areas were Ottoman only once and others more than once, 2) the antecedent of "its" is unclear, and 3) it should be made clearer that the term Tourkokratia applies to Ottoman rule specifically in Greece, not in all the other areas of Ottoman rule. My version may not be perfect and I won't object to revisions, but I hope editors will keep in mind what I've said about clarity. Littlewindow ( talk) 16:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the "Inconclusive fighting ..." passage should stay, though I also agree that a citation is needed. "Amongst" I think while not wrong is now increasingly considered unidiomatic even in British English -- the situation was never as simple as "among" = American and "amongst" = British, despite what some books will tell you -- but leave it if you want to. Littlewindow ( talk) 23:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
The section on "Administration" is full of problems. First of all, it relies on several inappropriate sources. Woodhouse, the main source for the section, was not a scholarly historian. He shouldn't be relied upon for an encyclopedia article - we should use books written by modern professional historians. Robert Waterfield is a scholar of Classical Greece, not a specialist on Ottoman Greece. It is not good to rely on him either, but perhaps slightly better than Woodhouse. In any case, this section is filled with inaccuracies. For instance, the notion that the Ottoman cavalry was entirely "Turkish" (whatever that means); in fact Christians were serving as cavalrymen as late as the sixteenth century. The statement that "No Greek's word could stand against a Turk's in a law court" is just plain false, and that "there were many repressive laws" is too vague - the reader should know what exactly is meant by this. Otherwise it amounts to nothing more than an NPOV statement that "the Ottomans were bad." I've tagged the section as having problems and will try to find the time to fix some of it shortly. Chamboz ( talk) 23:38, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like Greek Nationalist history. There are vague claims characterizing centuries of Ottoman rule as burdensome and oppressive, citing national histories of Greece rather than the work of historians who study the Ottoman Empire, as well as a lot of other features one expects to see in nationalist histories, such as references to the desire of the "Greek people" to be free - as if all Greeks shared in a collective national consciousness, or were some sort of hive-mind. Some examples:
"The Greeks with the one hand were given some privileges and freedom; with the other they were exposed to a tyranny deriving from the malpractices of its administrative personnel over which the central government had only remote and incomplete control."
"There were many repressive laws, and occasionally the Ottoman government committed massacres against the civilian population."
"The economic situation of the majority of Greece deteriorated heavily during the Ottoman era of the country. Life became ruralized and militarized. Heavy burdens of taxation were placed on the Christian population, and many Greeks were reduced to subsistence farming whereas during prior eras the region had been heavily developed and urbanized."
"Greeks heavily resented the declining economic situation in their country during the Ottoman era."
All the above quotes characterize hundreds and hundreds of years of Ottoman rule in simple negative statements with no nuance whatsoever. This is unsurprising given the tendency of nationalist historians to see the Ottoman period as a dark age. And of course, the segment on the independence of Greece is longer than the segment actually covering Greece in the Ottoman Empire, which is what the article is ostensibly about. Chamboz ( talk) 22:12, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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