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Where is teh section about 1700's?? I do not see it. Where is the section about russo-turkish wars, which Turkey was actively loosing almost every time? Why is this not mentioned at all? Or it is not history of Turkey? 99.231.59.7 02:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Pavel, 01 October, 2007.
It's not history of Turkey, it's the history of Ottoman Empire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.113.95 ( talk) 18:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Read weep and clap your hands kids. If the true history of Europe was told, we wouldn't have what's going on in the Middle East right now. Most people in the west barely heard of the Ottomans, and only in reference to recent history (world War 1), and only if they studied it at university.
History is told by those who won last.
The history of the East (China, India, and the Middle) east was neatly swept under the carpet so we could of the glory of the British Empire and Europeans.
i think the opposet happened.mostly byzantine influences in arabic world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 09:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
....Yes Billy that's there are Muslims in Europe reaching all the way into Russia, and why why Eastern Orthodox churches have look like Arabian Buildings —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.134.183 ( talk) 22:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe this article does not hold a good article status. (1) The content has no integrity. It is a patch work of non related concepts. The weight of content in each section is not balanced. The headings do not reflect the story. Such as the military section; instead of telling the military structure, section tell us the selected military activities which are already covered under the history section. Same content is repeated in different sections without the basic time line structure. (2) The article needs to obey the Wikipedia:Summary style This article contains references to many articles that tells the issues in detail. The article instead of summarizing the main link, gives details that is not even in the main article. (3) The article turn into a violation to Wikipedia:Content forking. The simple example is the military section. The same content has repeated with many different conclusions. (4) The article needs to be checked for Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The content became biased. Instead of telling the facts, the article tries to propagate a nationalistic view. These problems are just a small section. If these issues are not tackled by the authors, I 'm thinking of bringing a good review on this article. -- Anglepush 17:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Translation: The article doesn't meet with the personal tastes of Anglepush, therefore it's a bad article.
To be honest, for instance, the new format of the Ottoman Navy article is a complete mess, might I add.
Note that the "Rise", "Stagnation" and "Fall" periods (of power) of the Ottoman Army and Navy were different. Whereas, you seem to classify these dates as the same in the Ottoman Navy article.
e.g. the Ottoman Navy has nothing to do with 1683 (Battle of Vienna).
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 18:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just looking over this article I would have to agree with anglepush. The article lacks inline citations for most of the article, and the prose needs to be reviewed throughout. I would be willing to help on any effort to try and improve the article but I think that it needs a serious review, as such I am going to place the article up for review. Please feel free to disagree with me and state your case on the review page. I hope that at the very least this will expose the article to some outside scrutiny which will help to improve it. I hope this doesn't hurt any feelings but I honestly do not believe the article meets the guidelines for good article status. Timhud 00:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC).
I honestly believe, as Anglepush points out above, simply applying a little process to this article may be able to satisfy all parties. We really just need to better organize all the excellent information that is here. As it stands, the article is extremely long, as befits an empire which hung around for some time, but there's no reason this can't be broken up a bit to ease readability, and to be considerate of those with slower systems who may have trouble loading this page in a timely manner. As Flavius points out with regards to the navy, content forking is clearly an issue that is already getting away from us.
I would suggest we
I believe that this has been argued against previously because other empire pages are also very large. If nothing else, we can use this as the case study in cleaning up other such pages. Hiberniantears 16:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Based on my review of the GA delisting debate found here I believe we can come up with some priority to do's in order to whip this article back into shape:
1: Review of the 47 inline citations for duplication 2: Expand the number of inline citations to provide a consistent level of cites through all sections of the article 3: Implement a consistent formatting style for references 4: Remove bolding where not required 5: Reorganization of images to remove the sandwhiched feel of the text; this could be through the removal of the sheer number of images (thus vastly reducing article size), or moving some to a gallery located near the end of the article
In order to do this, I think we have to set aside some of the strongly held opinions which led this article to its current state. There has been a strong sense of ownership displayed by numerous editors, and this has inevitably led to insults, head butting, and edit wars. Thusly, rather than changing content on any grand scale, lets simply try this "to do"list first. Once it is completed, then we can see where the article stands, and identify areas in need of some NPOV edits. Due to the contentious nature of debate elsewhere on this talk page, I think having everyone focus on some house cleaning might be a good idea to calm some tensions. Hiberniantears 17:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a number of fine images from the article. This is an effort to preserve sections, and cut down on article size in sections that are already well illustrated, or where the article text is substantially descriptive to negate a need for an image. I suggest continuing to remove images. Flavius, as many of these are your images, and as all of them are great additions, please feel free to replace my subtractions with images you feel should remain. However, please try to be mindful removing other images in their place. Most of the removed images can probably be added to the main articles for each section if they are not already there. Hiberniantears 03:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Where do we want this? Hiberniantears 02:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
According to Robert Davis[27] between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[28] The most famous corsairs were the Ottoman Barbarossa ("Redbeard"), and his older brother Oruç, Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West), Kurtoğlu (known as Curtogoli in the West), Kemal Reis, Salih Reis and Koca Murat Reis. Many of the Barbary pirates, including Jan Janszoon and John Ward, were renegade Christians who had converted to Islam. For a long time, until the early 18th century Crimean Khanate maintained massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. In a process called "harvesting of the steppe" Crimean Tatars enslaved many Slavic peasants. The Crimean Khanate was undoubtedly one of the strongest powerof thes in Eastern Europe until the 18th century. It is estimatad that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freedmen.[29]
Removed this, since it appears elsewhere in the article. Hiberniantears 02:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC) The golden age of the Ottoman Empire was during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent in the 16th Century. This could be observed in many different fields, such as the architectural masterpieces of Koca Mimar Sinan Ağa, and the domination of the Mediterranean Sea by the Ottoman Navy, led by Barbarossa Hayreddin Pasha. The Ottoman Empire reached its territorial peak in the 17th century. The empire was the only Islamic power to seriously challenge the rising power of Western Europe between the 15th and 19th centuries. It steadily declined during the 19th century and met its demise after its defeat in the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I. In the aftermath of the war, the Ottoman government collapsed and the empire's lands were partitioned.
Following the victory of the Turkish revolutionaries led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk at the Turkish War of Independence, the Ottoman Sultanate was formally abolished on November 1, 1922. Turkey was declared a republic on October 29, 1923.
I have made some substantial revisions to the article today, building on my last edit from a few days ago which was subsequently reverted. The article is now down to 94k, and includes fewer images, and less text. I think that if you give the article an objective read, you will see that I mostly reduced redundant text, or reworded individual sentences. I made some minor cleaning of POV, but even in those cases simply worded a given topic in a more neutral fashion.
That said, the article still includes many, many images. I think that most, if not all of the images I removed can be placed on the sub-articles linking off from this page if it is deemed neccesary to keep them. I gave the article a general copyedit, but focused mostly on removing redundant text. In a number of cases back to back paragraphs described exactly the same thing. I changed and added a few headers to better describe the information within as well. The overall article still needs a rigorous copyedit.
I would like to focus some attention on the military section near the end, as I think this can be streamlines. However, the information there is all pretty sound. I think rather than have a section for each branch, we can have a brief military structure overview which links to the individual articles on each branch. Hiberniantears 16:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
"Turkish-ruled" is the one thing that the Ottoman Empire was definitely not. Anyone with basic knowledge on the topic should be aware of the existence of Greek ruling classes such as the Phanariotes, but also Jewish and Armenian societies who played a major role in the empire's economic, political and military sectors. The Ottomans liked to give high privileges to all the ethnies of the empire so that they have less of a reason to feel under a foreign rule. One thing the Ottoman Empire was without any compromises was Islamic. This term characterises it best. Miskin 21:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to this. Reference to the empire as Turkish Empire is common enough to leave at the top. Also, considering the multi ethnic and religious make up of the empire, I believe "dynastic" is a better description than "Islamic imperial" state. I've left the paragraph on the ethnic makeup, but I believe such things can be expanded in the section on society. -- A.Garnet 11:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
"A Turkish empire but the term "Turkish" doesn't refer especially to the race/ethnicity". This is what we need to express. "Turkish ruled" does not reflect the reality even if all Sultans were from Kayı tribe and there were countless numbers of Turkish originated Viziers in the ruling elite. Deliogul 09:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
To quote from D. Quataert, "The Ottoman Empire":
By "Turks" these frightened mothers meant a more complex reality - the fighting forces, who may or may not have been ethnically Turkish, of the multi-ethnic, multi-religious Ottoman Empire. Thus, a word here about the terms "Turks" and "Ottomans" seems in order. West, central and east Europeans referred to the "Turkish Empire" and to the "Turks" when discussing the state lead by the Ottoman dynasty. This was as true in the fourteenth as in the the twentieth century. The appellation "Turk" has some basis since the Ottoman family was ethnically Turkish in its origins, as were some of its supporters and subjects. But, as we shall see, the dynasty immediately lost this "Turkish" quality through intermarriages with many different ethnicities. As for a "Turkish Empire", state power relied on a similarly heterogeneous mix of peoples. The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered, quickly transcending its roots in the Turkish nomadic migrations from central Asia into Middle East. Whatever ethnic meaning the "Turk" may have held soon was lost and the term came to mean "Muslim". To turn Turk meant converting to Islam. Throughout this work, the term Ottoman is preferred since it conjures up more accurate images of a multi-ethnic, multi-religious enterprise that relied on inclusion for its success.
I think this answers the above remarks. Compare a mainstream scholarly view with what the article currently implies, i.e. that the Ottoman Empire was a Turkish nationalist which enslaved dozens of nations and conquered three continents. This maybe a nice patriotic fairy tale for someone who wants to overemphasise the geographical size and political might of the Ottoman Empire, but it has no place in a scientific source. It is clearly stated above that the Ottoman Empire succeeded because it was not what the article implies (a Turkish nationalist state), but because state power relied on a mix of peoples. I tried to improve the article by providing some useful and credible material but I was reverted. I have long accepted that some articles/topics in wikipedia will never improve unless there's a radical policy change. This article serves as a fine example. Miskin 10:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If you are correct, then why did people call it the "Turkish Empire" or "Turkey" instead of the "Islamic Empire" for centuries?
Why is the language called "Ottoman Turkish"?
Why are the Ottomans called the "Turks" and not "Muslims" in thousands of texts?
The answer is obvious, but perhaps not so obvious for emotional/prejudiced minds.
If it's O.K. to assert that the "multiethnic" Byzantine Empire was in essence a "Greek" empire, then it should also be O.K. to mention the essential Turkishness of the Ottoman Empire. Why do you think that the Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs and Armenians of today use many Turkish words in their langauges?
As for the "Christian minorities in high posts like the Dragoman (Chief Customs Officer)": They were always inferior compared to Muslim Turks under the law. The word of a Muslim Turkish witness always weighed heavier than the word of a Christian or Jew in the court, no matter how high his position was (including the Voivoda of Wallachia).
As for the "Devşirme" (Convert) Viziers of Christian origin: Their genetic origins (DNA) didn't matter much, as they were taken as babies and raised as Muslim soldiers or officials speaking the Ottoman Turkish language. Your "brain" matters more than your DNA in determining your national and religious identity. Yes, in terms of DNA, they were Serbian/Greek/Hungarian/etc. But in terms of brain, mentality, religion, ideology and language, they were Muslims speaking Ottoman Turkish. And language, by the way, is the #1 ingredient which defines a nation. Flavius Belisarius 19:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, how do you explain the Turkish surnames of the Armenians? They are not Arabic/Muslim surnames, they are plain "Turkish" surnames, like Zilciyan ( Zildjian, i.e. Cymbalmakerson or Bellmakerson), Kazancıyan (Kazanjian, i.e. Potmakerson), Deveciyan (Devedjian, i.e. Camelsellerson), Odacıyan (Odadjian, i.e. Roomkeeperson), Bayrakdaryan (Bayrakdarian, i.e. Standardbearerson), Pamukçuyan (Pamboukjian, i.e. Cottonsellerson), Terziyan (Terzian, i.e. Tailorson), Kavukçuyan (Kavoukjian, i.e. Hatmakerson), etc?
Or Greek surnames which are pure Turkish like Kazancıakis ( Kazantzakis) or Kazancıoğlu ( Kazanjoglou) or Kazancıdis ( Kazantzidis) which all mean "Potmakerson"; or Karamanlı ( Karamanlis, i.e. From Karaman), Çarık (Tsarouchis, i.e. Shoe), Yemeniciakis (Yemendzakis, i.e. Scarfsellerson), Kuyumcu (Koujioumtzis, i.e. Jeweller), Yeniçeri (Genitsaris, i.e. Janissary), Çolak (Tsiolakoudi, i.e. Armless), Paçacıoğlu (Patsatzoglou, i.e. Trousercuffmakerson), Kasap (Chasapis, i.e. Butcher), etc?
is the same like the greek word democracy(δημοκρατια)has survived in the whole world and mostly thousands in latin and latinised languages. but this does not mean that the whole world is greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 10:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Or why do Bosnians say "Ramazan Bayram Mübarek Olsun" (completely in Turkish) instead of the Arabic form "Eid Mubarak", if the Ottoman culture was plain "Muslim" without any Turkish character, as you are trying to imply? Flavius Belisarius 19:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, I, as a Turk, probably know Ottoman history, identity and character much better than you can or ever will (because I am a part of it). Both of my paternal great-grandfathers were Ottoman generals, who also served as generals in the early Turkish Republic. One of them got married in Prijepolje (Ottoman Empire, today in Serbia) while in duty, and a few years later my grandfather was born in Yemen (Ottoman Empire) during WWI. The language which they spoke was practically the same with the language which I speak today. Anyone who denies the essential Turkish character of the Ottoman Empire clearly doesn't know much about the subject. Honestly speaking, I doubt that the Cambridge professor you mentioned can understand Ottoman Turkish better than I do. Flavius Belisarius 20:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Do whatever you can - I'll be there to correct the errors if I see any, including resources, of course. Flavius Belisarius 20:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A.Garnet, thank you for your good will in resolving the "question", but I really don't understand what's behind this "complex" in the first place. Flavius Belisarius 20:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, here's my final message regarding the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnVK03cjQ_U
Flavius Belisarius 19:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Re:
This is fallacious in at least two ways. First of all, there is no particular reason to believe that someone with personal experience of something understands it better than outside observers, which is one reason that Wikipedia has a no original research policy. Secondly, many non-Turks have participated as much in Ottoman history as many Turks: my own great-grandfathers, for example, were born in Ottoman Crete.
Re:
I'm not sure what bearing the relationship of Ottoman and modern Turkish has on the question of ethnic identification under the Ottoman Empire, but this, too, is a problematic statement. I don't know how your great-grandfathers spoke in 1920, but presumably you don't either. Every serious scholar of Turkish acknowledges that Turkish today has changed radically from Ottoman Turkish. Mustafa Kemal's famous 1927 speech Nutuk had to be translated into "modern language" by the 1960's, and again (!) in the 1980's. (Geoffrey Lewis, The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success, pp. 2-4) -- Macrakis 21:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I can clearly understand the original Nutuk by Atatürk, just like I can clearly understand his speech in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA5gaURc2jc
Flavius Belisarius 15:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and many Greeks can understand the Koine New Testament. That doesn't mean that the language hasn't changed. -- Macrakis 15:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
You are describing language change; old words and constructions don't disappear from one day to the next, though I understand the Persian izafet is pretty much gone except in idioms/compounds like aksıseda; and how many Turks today do you think know the correct Ottoman plural of galat-ı meşhur? Anyway, as I said before, the relationship of late Ottoman Turkish to Modern Turkish isn't the issue here.
Anyway, the original issue was whether it makes sense to call the Ottoman Empire "a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state". This seems to me wrong in a variety of ways. First of all, the state itself (as opposed to its subjects) was not "multi-religious"; it was clearly and unequivocally a Muslim state: the legal system was based on Sharia law, Muslims had special privileges and duties, the Sultan often claimed to be the Caliph, etc. The population, of course, included large numbers of non-Muslims: Christians of various varieties and Jews, and even non- Peoples of the Book (largely as slaves). Their relationship with the state was as zimmis, a status defined by Sharia law. "Ethnic" is probably not an appropriate word to describe the different linguistic and religious groups within the Empire, since group definition was quite different from what we think of nowadays as "ethnic". Finally, I am not sure the "Turkish-ruled" is a useful term. For one thing, I don't think the Ottoman elite considered itself "Turkish" until the end of the 19th century. Wouldn't it be clearer to simply say that the origins of the ruling dynasty were Turkish and the language of administration was Ottoman Turkish?
That leaves us with something like:
Thoughts? -- Macrakis 22:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, the Byzantines never called themselves "Greek". They defined themselves as "Roman" (Romaios/Romiosini). That's why the Muslims called them "Rum" (Roman). But they were, essentially, "Greeks", just like the Ottoman Turks were essentially "Turks". Despite the fact that neither of them (Byzantines and Ottomans) directly used these specific names (Greek and Turk, respectively). Flavius Belisarius 21:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are similarities in the two cases. And indeed, the "Greek" nature of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire is less obvious than you might think. Of course the Byzantines spoke Greek, and wrote archaicizing Attic Greek just as the Ottomans spoke Turkish, and wrote, well, they wrote an interesting amalgam of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic. But the modern conception of continuity from ancient Greece to the present was essentially invented by the 19th-century nationalist historian Paparrigopoulos. Precisely as you say, the Byzantines did not call themselves Hellenes (a word reserved for pagans) until very late, just as the Ottomans did not call themselves Turks (a word reserved for peasants and nomads). Plethon, who tried to revive the link to ancient philosophy, had his writings burned as heretical. Why? Because the Eastern Roman Empire saw itself first as Christian, not Greek, just as the Ottoman Empire saw itself first as Muslim, not Turkish. -- Macrakis 03:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
the byzantine empire were firstly christian,secondly greek and then whatever just the ottoman firstly muslim then turkish and then whatever.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 10:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
That is a good parallel between the two Empires, though I don't agree that the connection with ancient Greece was invented - Constantinople was originally an ancient Greek colony and until its fall in 1453 it was decorated by both Christian and pagan culture (such statues of Olympian Gods and figures from Greek mythology). All studies in literature and philosophy were essentially the same as that of Hellenistic Alexandria and Athens, and the bulk of the Empire was geographically located on the areas of ancient Greek colonisation. Most importantly, the Empire was since the time of Justinian viewed in the eyes of the non-Byzantines as nothing but a corrupted continuation of ancient Greece (and even 'Rum' came to mean also 'ancient Greece' in Arabic). However it's wrong to refer to Byzantium as if it were always an ethnic Greek state, as it is wrong and anachronistic to refer to the Holy Roman Empire as an ethnic German state. It's true that Byzantium was founded on an ancient Greek city and fell consciously as a Christian Greek state, but for the most part of its history it was first Orthodox Christian and then Greek, just as the Ottoman Empire was first Islamic. In both cases (Ottomans and Byzantines), the foreigners called them "Turks" and "Greeks" respectively, and their empires "Turkey" and "Greece", but this should not allow anachronistic implications about those two states. Yes there was Turkish nationalism in the late Ottoman Empire, and yes there was Greek nationalism in the middle-late Byzantine Empire, but none of them were ethnic states, they were religious imperial powers. However, unlike Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire was not founded on Turkish-speaking lands nor did it ever reduce itself to an ethnically homogeneous population. Also, unlike Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire had never preserved a "classical Turkic" culture, for Islam was the only Turkish culture. The most important thing here is Quataert's statement:
As for a "Turkish Empire", state power relied on a similarly heterogeneous mix of peoples. The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered
The article is implying the opposite of the above statement. It anachronistically applies Kemalist nationalist thought on a Islamic Imperial state. The irony is that if what Belisarius suggests had been true, the Ottoman Empire would have never become as great as it did. This is what Quataert states at the beginning of his book. Miskin 14:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
"Let's be realistic: All former Ottoman nations, apart from the Turks, describe the date of independence of their state as "liberation from the Turks"; whereas Turkey proudly considers itself as a "successor state" of the Ottoman Empire."
As usually, you overestimate your knowledge on the topic, and you couldn't be more wrong. The
Battle of Navarino was essentially the event which instigated the French colonisation of
Magreb. Today
Algerian and
Tunisian historiography views this "break-up" from the Ottoman Empire as a national destruction. As for the Successor states of the Ottoman Empire, those were essentially all nation-states that were created upon the former's dissolution. The claim that "I know Ottoman history better than you ever will because I'm a Turk" is simply laughable, let alone against the spirit of wikipedia and NPOV. One thing that should be made clear is that Wikipedia considers editors' personal family experiences as irrelevant, and I won't be responding to such "evidence". As far as
WP:ATT is concerned, this is largely a waste of time. The unintelligibility between modern and Ottoman Turkish is simply irrelevant to the topic at hand. To make the long story short, I don't disagree that the Ottomans were essentially Turks, as well as the direct ancestors of modern Turks, but I certainly refuse to accept that the Ottoman Empire was a Turkish version of 3rd Reich, in which a sole ethnicity "commanded and conquered" other nations and peoples. As Quataert says, "The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered". I think this should no longer be neglected by the Turkish editors in the article.
Miskin 14:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Flavius Belisarius 20:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Miskin is right to say that the integrity and the vitality of the Ottoman Empire (consisting of various ethnicities and religions) is due to ignoring all kinds of ethnicity and ruling the community of Ottoman empire by recognizing differences in the view point of religions such as calling the community as muslim and non-muslim. The applications of policies in Ottoman Empire are carried out according to religions. However, this fact can not be used as a proof for the statement that Turkish identity does have the same amount of influence on Ottoman Empire in all aspects as other ethnicities that lived in Ottomans' territory and contributed to Ottoman Empire. In conclusion, denying the effect of Turkish identity (can be considered as 'special' situation with respect to other cultures and nations)on all stages of the history of Ottoman Empire results totally true but truncated historical information about Ottoman Empire. Thanks and calm down please. [butoprak] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.226.232.10 ( talk) 23:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The ratio of non-Muslims was "1 in every 5" during the late Ottoman period. Today, it is something like "1 in every 500". Losing the highly populated Balkans, CUP's eastern policies, population exchanges and the Istanbul Pogrom, all caused Turkey to lose its multicultural basis. So, the imperial ambition to create a world empire and to integrate all people into the Ottoman notion is the politics of the past. Today, we have a totally different story. Deliogul 12:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Some of you are applying post-18th century ideas like nationalism and ethnicism to the Ottoman Empire, which during its rule promoted none of these idealisms and in fact greatly suffered from them. Yet, user Miskin has the false belief -he holds on to this belief for 2 years now- nonMuslims had any kind of integrity within the Ottoman ruling class. NonMuslims were second class citizens. I am looking forward to anyone refuting this, that would be eye-opening information for me too. Despite of the wealth they garnered under the Ottoman flag, nonMuslims didn't have the same rights as Muslims until late years which showed little progress under Western dictation. And those Balkan and Anatolian Muslims, those who made the skeleton of the Ottoman Empire, are the ancestors of modern day Turks of Turkey. So if we will examine the Ottoman Empire from our 21th century perspective, we can say the Ottoman Empire was Turkish ruled. I believe Turkey has more connections with Ottoman Empire than modern Greece has with Byzantine Empire... I am looking forward to anyone refuting that last comment as well.-- Doktor Gonzo 23:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
^^You guys have a nice discussion going on here, but you're straying from the main topic a bit, I think. Miskin said that the Ottoman Empire was "Islamic". Let me clarify something for you, Flavius Belisarius. Islam is a religion. Religions are not defined nor constrained by languages. It is true that the Ottoman Empire was based in Turkey, and that the language spoken was near modern-day-Turkish, but that is, once again, a language. I believe that you could call the empire both "Turkish" and "Islamic" because it consists largely of BOTH elements. -- Youknowme786 ( talk) 03:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
WE KNOW YOU HATE US BUT...
-I am turk.I know that we are(ottomans)turk.They are real turks.They are coming from Kayı tribe.
-Turk means brave people and warrior people.Turk means that in our turkish.
-You say ottomans are not turk.They are turk.Yes,an example some armenians have turkish seunames or some turks have other ethnic groups's surname like Lazs,Arabs...Because,Ottoman empire had a system named that:DEVŞİRME...İn this system some children take in their towns and we educuate them all like Sokollu Mehmed Pasha... -BRİTİSHES PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH.Ottoman empire's first politic was people could do their religion.I and my country know you(britishes,greeks,frenches...)dont like us because of wars but please think that:İf ottomans dont permit greeks,armenians and Jewish people to do their religion there will be a caos.Please you can hate us but you must thank us because when we get Greece or bulgaria we could spoke turkish in bulgaria.Bulgars and greeks can talk turkish now and turkish is a more popular language.But we permit you.We have a proverb that: Feed the bird and it kills you.We always won wars against you and you hate us.I agree it is so bad feeling...:)
-Ottomans wanted to conquewr all the world but they can only conquer to:Baltic sea,atlantic ocean,Sudan,to Iran.What can we do god makes us like warriors.But unfortunately god makes you like good diplomaticians and politicians to conquer countrys by capturing their rules and economys like now.You are doing us(turkey).Our President Erdoğan wants do an islamic empire.But we are not religionus.We are muslims but we dont like islamic revolution.Because we are turk we cant live under a other flag.We want independent.Please look:
-Turkish independence war -Mustafa Kemal Atatürk -Turks Military History -Turks History -Republic of Turkey
BESLE KARGAYI OYSUN GÖZÜNÜ.
A TURK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.205.50 ( talk) 19:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Flag is wrong.. This flag is Turkey's flag.. Ottoman flag is different
The current flag of Turkey was also the first official Ottoman national flag, adopted with the Tanzimat reforms in 1844.
Before 1844 there was no Ottoman "national flag". Every Ottoman institution had its own flag.
The supposed "Ottoman flag" which appeared previously was actually the "Ottoman Navy Flag" and was used between 1793 and 1844. It was never used as a "national flag".
Turkish flags in Istanbul, 1920 (Ottoman period):
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/kararkoy02.jpg
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/tepebasi.jpg
Turkish flags in Istanbul, 1927 (Turkish Republic period):
http://www.azizistanbul.com/eskifoto05/bahcekapieminonu1927.jpg
http://www.istanbul.gov.tr/Portals/Istanbul/eskiimg/esk02.jpg
Flavius Belisarius 20:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have seen a few articles where various historical flags are used (i.e. Austro-Hungarian Empire, which used a naval ensign, I believe). However, Flavius seems to have his flags down. Either way, when dealing with older states that preceed our modern nation state era, I think this is a relatively minor issue. As noted, there were myriad flags used for different purposes throughout the Ottoman period. I say let Flav's flag stand. Hiberniantears 20:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually your arguement about postcards not being reliable is right. But I still think that it'd be an overstatement to say that the flags were identical, since the proportions of present day Turkish flag were not standartized until 1936. I just noticed Image:Jihad 1914.jpg (right) is one of the better examples on this subject. It's a late ottoman flag, used for an official purpose. And indeed the position of the star looks alike with the present-day Turkish flag while the thickness of the crescent differs minimally. Under these circumstances we can just leave it as it is in the article, or I can make another flag just nominally different, just to show that it didn't have standarts before.
Opinions?
Regards; Kerem Özcan 13:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Well I just noticed that the alternative flag I made a while ago has replaced the Turkish flag that was in the article. Regarding a 1914 image I made another alternative (On the right). I am OK with the usage of any, including the 8 pointed flag and the present day turkish flag. Opinions? Kerem Özcan ( talk) 15:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I just wanted to ask editors familiar with Ottoman history to take a look at List of Iranian states and empires. The article claims that Ottoman Empire was an Iranian state and to justify this cites some sources that only mention some cultural borrowings from Persians. But the same arguement can be made about Arabs, etc since the Empire was a multicultural state. But I seriuosly doubt that anybody (whether Ottomans or their neighbors) ever called them an Iranian state. Heja Helweda 17:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Removed the paragraph:
Rural slavery was largely a Caucasian phenomenon, carried to Anatolia and Rumelia after the Circassian migration in 1864. Conflicts emerged within the immigrant community and the Ottoman Establishment, at times, intervened on the side of the slaves
This is strictly revisionist history. Prime Example; Shaka the leader of the Zulu nation had over Fifteen Hundred personal Slaves. Two Hundred of which he put to death as a show of Mourning when his mother died. There are numerous Historical facts that are agreed upon many scholars that Slavery was a phenomena of many different races.
Martinj63 02:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Still the paragraph is biased as there are numerous cultures that have and some cases still practice slavery today.
Martinj63 20:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following section from the article which was added by the above named editor, and rolling the article back to it's previous version. I don't think the text below is wrong, but I would like to see it worked into the existing text, which has been here for some time, and seems to have been fairly established. This represents the lead to the Society section. Hiberniantears 20:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC) Although it can be said that the legacy of Arab rule was the religion of Islam, for the Turkish their claim to a legacy belongs to the formation of the Ottoman Empire. We see the Ottoman Empire being described as a bureaucratic state, holding different regions within a single administrative and fiscal system (Hourani 207). In fact the Ottoman Empire would last for six hundred years (1299-1923) and would encompass what is modern day Turkey, the Balkans and all of the Arab speaking nation states. Thus the Ottoman Empire would be home to a extremely diverse population ranging from the muslim majority to the minority population, specifically Christians and Jews who were referred to as the People of the Book.
I've proposed the creation of an Ottoman Empire WikiProject. The nomination can be found here. -- Hemlock Martinis 06:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This sounds great. I voiced my support on the proposal. Hiberniantears 18:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is not GA anymore, right? What is the last situation? Deniz T C 10:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The Ottoman empire was an Islamic empire , not a "multi ethnic empire" . This is not even in question in the historical and academic world. Even in Wikipedia article on Islams like here and here , the Ottoman empire is featured front and center as Islamic. Thus the intro should clearly state that fact.-- CltFn 12:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Taking a wider view of this, do we even need to establish the ethnic and religious identity of the Empire in the opening paragraph? The Roman Empire opens as such:
We could just use a variant of this, specific to the Ottoman Empire centered on the Sultan in Istanbul. Any thoughts? This way we create a fairly vanilla opening for an article which does experience a fair amount of ethnic/religious based edit-wars. I realize this is contrary to what I said previously, but maybe a more bland, straightforward opening is the way to go. Perhaps:
It is obvious to me why Ottoman Empire has lost its GA status, and I'm sure with a few changes it will be restored. This is what I saw:
Please visit Scotland in the High Middle Ages and see why that article is featured content! It has clear and concise paragraphs, beefy references done well, and has a primary and secondary source section which is necessary when so many references are included.
I hope others see what I am talking about. Happy editing! Monsieurdl 17:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, what do you think about this new Map of the greatest extension of the empire between 1566-1683:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ottoman_Empire_16-17th_century.jpg
thx. :) lynxxx 217.184.138.211 20:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The Map belongs (with few corrections) to: Harry W. Hazard, Atlas of Islamic History, Princeton 1954. and is in some definitve books of orientalistic in germany
bye, lynxxx 217.184.138.211 22:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
"...also known as the Turkish Empire or Turkey by its contemporaries, see the other names of the Ottoman State), was a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state....As such, the Ottomans regarded themselves as the heirs to both Roman and Islamic traditions, and hence rulers of a "Universal Empire" through this "unification of cultures".[1]"
How cute, a mutli-ethnic, multi-religious, Unification of cultures Utopia lead by the glorious Muslim masters in Contantinople.
Do the Chinese, British, Roman, French empires get such glowing Politically Correct reviews? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.106.248.211 ( talk) 13:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Er is een verkeerde vlag in het artikel geplaats. De vlag van de Ottomanen had een meerpuntige ster met een maansikkel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.248.185.43 ( talk) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
No. Mallerd ( talk) 22:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Lets have consistency here people. The Ottoman Sultanate conquered Byzantium. It did not succeed it. Otherwise, the claims of the Republic of Venice, Imperial Russia, Vatican City, Holy Roman Empire etc would have to be included - not to mention other successors in terms of spiritual and religious matters such as the Balkans who adhere to Orthodox Christianity. A concensus was reached with this matter. Tourskin ( talk) 08:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
All the above have a spiritual and a territorial claim above. Granted that Russia's conquest of the Crimea gives it limited claim.
And lets not forget the wretched Holy Roman Empire. Nothing seperates the Ottoman Sultanate from these listed powers - they all had a part in Byzantium's downfall, especially Venice, which conquered vast amounts of Roman and Greek land, and they all have a spiritual link. What do you say, do we play favorites or have double standards and include all of them or none? Nip it at the bud and get rid of these pretenders. The Link between Rome and Byzantium is tenuous at best, with so many Armenian and Macedonian usurpers. What link do you think a Turkic tribe originating from Central Asia has with an empire of antiquity that is not already shared by so many others? Tourskin ( talk) 18:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
they are not the succesors of teh byzantines or romans..thats just stupid....shouldnt the british be the succesors of the romans then as well? NO BECAUSE NOONE REPLACED THEM! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.170.135 ( talk) 08:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, let's see, what writes the experts?
"The Ottomans, in 1453, had destroyed the second Rome, Byzantium, that had endured for one thousand years, from the fourth through the fifteenth centuries. Through this act, the Ottoman state changed in status from regional power to world empire. As destroyer, the Ottoman Empire in some ways also was the inheritor of the Roman heritage in its eastern Byzantine form. Indeed, Sultan Mehmet II, the conqueror of Constantinople, explicitly laid down the claim that hewas a caesar, a latter-day emperor, and his sixteenth-century successor, S¨uleyman the Magnificent, sought Rome as the capstone of his career. Moreover, the Ottoman rulers, having conquered the second Rome, for the next four hundred-plus years honored its Roman founder in the name of the capital city. Until the end of the empire, the city’s name – the city of Constantine – Konstantiniyye/ Constantinople – remained in the Ottomans’ official correspondence, their coins, and on their postage stamps, after these came into use in the nineteenth century. In some respects, the Ottomans followed certain Byzantine administrative models. Like the Byzantines, the Ottomans practiced a kind of caesaro-papism, the system in which the state controlled the clergy. In the Ottoman judiciary the courts were run by judges, members of the religious class, the ulema. The Ottoman sultans appointed these judges and thus, like their Byzantine imperial predecessors, exercised a direct control over members of the religious establishment. In addition, to give another example of Byzantine–Ottoman continuities, Byzantine forms of land tenure carried over into the Ottoman era. While the Ottomans forged their own unique synthesis and were no mere imitators of their predecessors, their debt to the Byzantines was real. Other powerful influences shaped the Ottoman polity besides the Byzantine. As we shall see, the Ottoman Empire emerged out of the anarchy surrounding the Turkish nomadic movements into the Middle East after 1000 CE, population movements triggered by uncertain causes in their central Asiatic homelands. It was the last great Turco-Islamic state, following those of the Seljuks and of Tamerlane, born of the migration of the Turkish peoples out of central Asia westward into the Middle East and the Balkans (see chapter 2). The shamanist beliefs of those nomads remained deeply embedded in the spiritual practices andworld view of the Ottoman dynasty. Similarly, pre-Islamic Turkish usages remained important in Ottoman administrative circles, despite the later influx of administrative and legal practices from the Islamic world of Iran and the eastern Mediterranean. Ultimately, the Ottoman system should be seen as a highly effective blend of influences deriving from Byzantium, the Turkish nomads, and the Balkan states, as well as the Islamic world."
Quotet from: DONALD QUATAERT: The Ottoman Empire, 1700–1922 Second Edition. Binghamton University, State University of New York 2005. p. 4. Greetz, lynxxx -- 78.54.221.42 ( talk) 02:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The section headed "Stagnation and reform" starts with this sentence:
What does this mean? Were these territories ceded to Austria, or did they secede to Austria? "Cede" is usually a transitive verb. Who did the ceding? rowley ( talk) 18:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
For unclear reasons, a slow edit war is going on over which of two rather similar paintings should be used to illustrate the entry of Mehmet the Conqueror in Constantinople. Please argue your choice here on the talk page, so that we may hope to reach a consensus on this choice of paramount importance, instead of continuing to practice unmotivated undos. -- Lambiam 10:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Romance is in the soul of the nation-states of our time. I mean Vercingetorix heavily defeated against Julius Caesar but he is depicted as an epic hero in France's national identity, Obilic just faked Murad Hüdavendigar and stabbed him but he is a saint according to the Orthodox Church. I assume we all know that none of the Ottoman Sultans would do such an unsafe thing like marching into a newly conquered city which was still swimming in bloodshed and anarchy. Deliogul ( talk) 23:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I am for visual and historic reasons supporting the picture on the left. I think it has already won this "war", but I am not sure. Yojimbo501 ( talk) 23:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
How is it just faked? It was quite an achievement, if not, I'd like to see you try. Mallerd ( talk) 14:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
i think the map doesn't show the "full" wideness of the empire at its peak. the empire also spanned to saudi arabia, and it included whole morocco, algeria, libya, egypt, yemen, oman, united arab emirates, kuwait, iraq, syria, and some parts of iran. the map here doesn't show all of them. it only shows the territories when the empire was in decline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evrenos ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin ( talk) 20:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
the section begining "==Growth (1453–1683)==" ends with the statement "Curtis loves little men" it doesn't appear in the edit this page section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.76.221.153 ( talk) 06:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear colleagues, I have uploaded a new SVG version of coat of arms of the Ottoman Empire. It would be great if you could change from the old rasterized version to the new one. Any comments welcome in Wikipedia Commons. See image here: Image:Osmanli-nisani.svg -- 78.84.111.131 ( talk) 12:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This was the real Ottoman flag of 1844-1922, as proven by the links (photos) in its description page:
The flag below (currently in the Ottoman Empire template) is both inaccurate and so ugly that an Ottoman sultan would probably behead a tailor who would sew such a horrid thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Country_data_Ottoman_Empire
151.57.202.37 ( talk) 23:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Photo from 1908 (the gathering at Sultanahmet Square during the Young Turk Revolution):
Photo from 1918 (protests at Sultanahmet Square against the occupation of Istanbul by the Allies):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/SultanahmetMitingi.jpg
151.57.204.247 ( talk) 02:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this photo from 1914 is by far the best evidence in hand:
http://www.turquie-memoire.com/jihad.jpg
151.57.204.247 ( talk) 02:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The opening paragraph says "The Ottoman Empire, also called the Osmanic Empire or Osmanian Empire...." The names "Osmanic" and "Osmanian" are rare and obsolete, and were never as common as other the obsolete terms "Turkish Empire" and "Turkey". So what are they doing at the top of the article? -- Macrakis ( talk) 08:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
How can it be called "Osmanian"? I bet %90 of the people who are aware of the empire don't even know Osman I. Actually, it is sad because his life, which is now a combination of reality and myth, is very similar to the lifes of other popular rulers of his kind. People generally know Fatih, Kanuni, Yavuz and, if you are interested in 19th century politics, Abdülhamit II. Therefore, somebody giving such an alternative name to the empire is not really possible. Deliogul ( talk) 22:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
SINCE 1453 88.233.195.35 ( talk) 13:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The flag shown in the article is not the official flag of the Ottoman emipre! Actually, it's the flag of the current Turkish republic.
This is the Ottoman flag
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ottoman_Flag.svg/800px-Ottoman_Flag.svg.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.236.247 ( talk) 10:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[5] Mallerd ( talk) 20:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me why the Ottomans chose the side of Germany and Austria in WWI? I saw in the Suleiman the Magnificent article that there was a rivalry between Austria and the Ottoman empire even in the 20th century. Besides, the Ottoman empire was somewhat rescued by France and England in the dawn of the Crimean war. Mallerd ( talk) 18:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there any information at all that the Ottoman Empire may have tried to colonize the Americas, perhaps Brazil, Colombia, the Caribbean, those regions? It's pretty much certain they didn't have much any influence in there for very long, but being the powerhouse of Asia that they were, wouldn't they have tried to follow the Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, French, English into the Americas? the only mention in this article is that Ottoman ships were spotted off the coast of North America in 1660 or so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndarielHalo ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
AndarielHalo ( talk) 14:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It appears to be a POV creation which does not match historical reality. I have removed it for that reason. Serious inaccuracies include, showing Cyprus as part of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century and in 1913, showing what is now Azerbaijan as part of the Ottman empire in the 19th century, showing the Igdir plain as part of the Ottoman empire throughout the 19th century and in 1913, showing the Russian province of Kars as part of the Ottoman empire from the 1880s and in 1913, showing a completely fabricated territory as "Ottoman empire" for 1922 (most of central Turkey was in the hands of Turkish nationalist forces at that time and not in the control of the Ottoman Sultan based in Constantinople). Meowy 01:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Is there a place i can find accurate maps of the Ottoman Empire from the 19th century on? i would like to create the animated gif map with the correct information -- Rafaelherrejon ( talk) 06:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)fie
The massively expensive and risky expedition that led to the battle of Lepanto in 1571 was no mere "revenge attack" - Europe was petrified by the constant Islamic advance and though earlier weatern historians were quite wrong to announce that the empire began its decline with this battle (it takes much more than a battle to send an empire down), it should be noted that it did check its naval power in the Mediterranean despite the huge construction effort. Many factors played a part in the calculations of all the parties involved but that this was an important milestone in history is indisputable. Too often the focus is upon commercial aspects but as the players of the time knew, mercantile wealth and naval dominance lays the foundation for invasion. 02:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Some edits ago I added numerous succeeding countries. But now they've been reverted back to just Turkey as the only one. My question is was it wrong to add these countries? I know that the French Union does state every country that it split up into as succeeding countries. Sorry though if it's a dumb question but I am quite new. ZDoom ( talk) 19:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
The legal successor state and the countries which now control its former territories are two very different things. Both are worth mentioning, but shouldn't be mixed up with one another. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Where is teh section about 1700's?? I do not see it. Where is the section about russo-turkish wars, which Turkey was actively loosing almost every time? Why is this not mentioned at all? Or it is not history of Turkey? 99.231.59.7 02:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Pavel, 01 October, 2007.
It's not history of Turkey, it's the history of Ottoman Empire —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.113.95 ( talk) 18:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Read weep and clap your hands kids. If the true history of Europe was told, we wouldn't have what's going on in the Middle East right now. Most people in the west barely heard of the Ottomans, and only in reference to recent history (world War 1), and only if they studied it at university.
History is told by those who won last.
The history of the East (China, India, and the Middle) east was neatly swept under the carpet so we could of the glory of the British Empire and Europeans.
i think the opposet happened.mostly byzantine influences in arabic world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 09:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
....Yes Billy that's there are Muslims in Europe reaching all the way into Russia, and why why Eastern Orthodox churches have look like Arabian Buildings —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.134.183 ( talk) 22:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe this article does not hold a good article status. (1) The content has no integrity. It is a patch work of non related concepts. The weight of content in each section is not balanced. The headings do not reflect the story. Such as the military section; instead of telling the military structure, section tell us the selected military activities which are already covered under the history section. Same content is repeated in different sections without the basic time line structure. (2) The article needs to obey the Wikipedia:Summary style This article contains references to many articles that tells the issues in detail. The article instead of summarizing the main link, gives details that is not even in the main article. (3) The article turn into a violation to Wikipedia:Content forking. The simple example is the military section. The same content has repeated with many different conclusions. (4) The article needs to be checked for Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The content became biased. Instead of telling the facts, the article tries to propagate a nationalistic view. These problems are just a small section. If these issues are not tackled by the authors, I 'm thinking of bringing a good review on this article. -- Anglepush 17:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Translation: The article doesn't meet with the personal tastes of Anglepush, therefore it's a bad article.
To be honest, for instance, the new format of the Ottoman Navy article is a complete mess, might I add.
Note that the "Rise", "Stagnation" and "Fall" periods (of power) of the Ottoman Army and Navy were different. Whereas, you seem to classify these dates as the same in the Ottoman Navy article.
e.g. the Ottoman Navy has nothing to do with 1683 (Battle of Vienna).
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 18:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Just looking over this article I would have to agree with anglepush. The article lacks inline citations for most of the article, and the prose needs to be reviewed throughout. I would be willing to help on any effort to try and improve the article but I think that it needs a serious review, as such I am going to place the article up for review. Please feel free to disagree with me and state your case on the review page. I hope that at the very least this will expose the article to some outside scrutiny which will help to improve it. I hope this doesn't hurt any feelings but I honestly do not believe the article meets the guidelines for good article status. Timhud 00:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC).
I honestly believe, as Anglepush points out above, simply applying a little process to this article may be able to satisfy all parties. We really just need to better organize all the excellent information that is here. As it stands, the article is extremely long, as befits an empire which hung around for some time, but there's no reason this can't be broken up a bit to ease readability, and to be considerate of those with slower systems who may have trouble loading this page in a timely manner. As Flavius points out with regards to the navy, content forking is clearly an issue that is already getting away from us.
I would suggest we
I believe that this has been argued against previously because other empire pages are also very large. If nothing else, we can use this as the case study in cleaning up other such pages. Hiberniantears 16:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Based on my review of the GA delisting debate found here I believe we can come up with some priority to do's in order to whip this article back into shape:
1: Review of the 47 inline citations for duplication 2: Expand the number of inline citations to provide a consistent level of cites through all sections of the article 3: Implement a consistent formatting style for references 4: Remove bolding where not required 5: Reorganization of images to remove the sandwhiched feel of the text; this could be through the removal of the sheer number of images (thus vastly reducing article size), or moving some to a gallery located near the end of the article
In order to do this, I think we have to set aside some of the strongly held opinions which led this article to its current state. There has been a strong sense of ownership displayed by numerous editors, and this has inevitably led to insults, head butting, and edit wars. Thusly, rather than changing content on any grand scale, lets simply try this "to do"list first. Once it is completed, then we can see where the article stands, and identify areas in need of some NPOV edits. Due to the contentious nature of debate elsewhere on this talk page, I think having everyone focus on some house cleaning might be a good idea to calm some tensions. Hiberniantears 17:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a number of fine images from the article. This is an effort to preserve sections, and cut down on article size in sections that are already well illustrated, or where the article text is substantially descriptive to negate a need for an image. I suggest continuing to remove images. Flavius, as many of these are your images, and as all of them are great additions, please feel free to replace my subtractions with images you feel should remain. However, please try to be mindful removing other images in their place. Most of the removed images can probably be added to the main articles for each section if they are not already there. Hiberniantears 03:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Where do we want this? Hiberniantears 02:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
According to Robert Davis[27] between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[28] The most famous corsairs were the Ottoman Barbarossa ("Redbeard"), and his older brother Oruç, Turgut Reis (known as Dragut in the West), Kurtoğlu (known as Curtogoli in the West), Kemal Reis, Salih Reis and Koca Murat Reis. Many of the Barbary pirates, including Jan Janszoon and John Ward, were renegade Christians who had converted to Islam. For a long time, until the early 18th century Crimean Khanate maintained massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. In a process called "harvesting of the steppe" Crimean Tatars enslaved many Slavic peasants. The Crimean Khanate was undoubtedly one of the strongest powerof thes in Eastern Europe until the 18th century. It is estimatad that up to 75% of the Crimean population consisted of slaves or freedmen.[29]
Removed this, since it appears elsewhere in the article. Hiberniantears 02:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC) The golden age of the Ottoman Empire was during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent in the 16th Century. This could be observed in many different fields, such as the architectural masterpieces of Koca Mimar Sinan Ağa, and the domination of the Mediterranean Sea by the Ottoman Navy, led by Barbarossa Hayreddin Pasha. The Ottoman Empire reached its territorial peak in the 17th century. The empire was the only Islamic power to seriously challenge the rising power of Western Europe between the 15th and 19th centuries. It steadily declined during the 19th century and met its demise after its defeat in the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I. In the aftermath of the war, the Ottoman government collapsed and the empire's lands were partitioned.
Following the victory of the Turkish revolutionaries led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk at the Turkish War of Independence, the Ottoman Sultanate was formally abolished on November 1, 1922. Turkey was declared a republic on October 29, 1923.
I have made some substantial revisions to the article today, building on my last edit from a few days ago which was subsequently reverted. The article is now down to 94k, and includes fewer images, and less text. I think that if you give the article an objective read, you will see that I mostly reduced redundant text, or reworded individual sentences. I made some minor cleaning of POV, but even in those cases simply worded a given topic in a more neutral fashion.
That said, the article still includes many, many images. I think that most, if not all of the images I removed can be placed on the sub-articles linking off from this page if it is deemed neccesary to keep them. I gave the article a general copyedit, but focused mostly on removing redundant text. In a number of cases back to back paragraphs described exactly the same thing. I changed and added a few headers to better describe the information within as well. The overall article still needs a rigorous copyedit.
I would like to focus some attention on the military section near the end, as I think this can be streamlines. However, the information there is all pretty sound. I think rather than have a section for each branch, we can have a brief military structure overview which links to the individual articles on each branch. Hiberniantears 16:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
"Turkish-ruled" is the one thing that the Ottoman Empire was definitely not. Anyone with basic knowledge on the topic should be aware of the existence of Greek ruling classes such as the Phanariotes, but also Jewish and Armenian societies who played a major role in the empire's economic, political and military sectors. The Ottomans liked to give high privileges to all the ethnies of the empire so that they have less of a reason to feel under a foreign rule. One thing the Ottoman Empire was without any compromises was Islamic. This term characterises it best. Miskin 21:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to this. Reference to the empire as Turkish Empire is common enough to leave at the top. Also, considering the multi ethnic and religious make up of the empire, I believe "dynastic" is a better description than "Islamic imperial" state. I've left the paragraph on the ethnic makeup, but I believe such things can be expanded in the section on society. -- A.Garnet 11:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
"A Turkish empire but the term "Turkish" doesn't refer especially to the race/ethnicity". This is what we need to express. "Turkish ruled" does not reflect the reality even if all Sultans were from Kayı tribe and there were countless numbers of Turkish originated Viziers in the ruling elite. Deliogul 09:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
To quote from D. Quataert, "The Ottoman Empire":
By "Turks" these frightened mothers meant a more complex reality - the fighting forces, who may or may not have been ethnically Turkish, of the multi-ethnic, multi-religious Ottoman Empire. Thus, a word here about the terms "Turks" and "Ottomans" seems in order. West, central and east Europeans referred to the "Turkish Empire" and to the "Turks" when discussing the state lead by the Ottoman dynasty. This was as true in the fourteenth as in the the twentieth century. The appellation "Turk" has some basis since the Ottoman family was ethnically Turkish in its origins, as were some of its supporters and subjects. But, as we shall see, the dynasty immediately lost this "Turkish" quality through intermarriages with many different ethnicities. As for a "Turkish Empire", state power relied on a similarly heterogeneous mix of peoples. The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered, quickly transcending its roots in the Turkish nomadic migrations from central Asia into Middle East. Whatever ethnic meaning the "Turk" may have held soon was lost and the term came to mean "Muslim". To turn Turk meant converting to Islam. Throughout this work, the term Ottoman is preferred since it conjures up more accurate images of a multi-ethnic, multi-religious enterprise that relied on inclusion for its success.
I think this answers the above remarks. Compare a mainstream scholarly view with what the article currently implies, i.e. that the Ottoman Empire was a Turkish nationalist which enslaved dozens of nations and conquered three continents. This maybe a nice patriotic fairy tale for someone who wants to overemphasise the geographical size and political might of the Ottoman Empire, but it has no place in a scientific source. It is clearly stated above that the Ottoman Empire succeeded because it was not what the article implies (a Turkish nationalist state), but because state power relied on a mix of peoples. I tried to improve the article by providing some useful and credible material but I was reverted. I have long accepted that some articles/topics in wikipedia will never improve unless there's a radical policy change. This article serves as a fine example. Miskin 10:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
If you are correct, then why did people call it the "Turkish Empire" or "Turkey" instead of the "Islamic Empire" for centuries?
Why is the language called "Ottoman Turkish"?
Why are the Ottomans called the "Turks" and not "Muslims" in thousands of texts?
The answer is obvious, but perhaps not so obvious for emotional/prejudiced minds.
If it's O.K. to assert that the "multiethnic" Byzantine Empire was in essence a "Greek" empire, then it should also be O.K. to mention the essential Turkishness of the Ottoman Empire. Why do you think that the Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs and Armenians of today use many Turkish words in their langauges?
As for the "Christian minorities in high posts like the Dragoman (Chief Customs Officer)": They were always inferior compared to Muslim Turks under the law. The word of a Muslim Turkish witness always weighed heavier than the word of a Christian or Jew in the court, no matter how high his position was (including the Voivoda of Wallachia).
As for the "Devşirme" (Convert) Viziers of Christian origin: Their genetic origins (DNA) didn't matter much, as they were taken as babies and raised as Muslim soldiers or officials speaking the Ottoman Turkish language. Your "brain" matters more than your DNA in determining your national and religious identity. Yes, in terms of DNA, they were Serbian/Greek/Hungarian/etc. But in terms of brain, mentality, religion, ideology and language, they were Muslims speaking Ottoman Turkish. And language, by the way, is the #1 ingredient which defines a nation. Flavius Belisarius 19:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, how do you explain the Turkish surnames of the Armenians? They are not Arabic/Muslim surnames, they are plain "Turkish" surnames, like Zilciyan ( Zildjian, i.e. Cymbalmakerson or Bellmakerson), Kazancıyan (Kazanjian, i.e. Potmakerson), Deveciyan (Devedjian, i.e. Camelsellerson), Odacıyan (Odadjian, i.e. Roomkeeperson), Bayrakdaryan (Bayrakdarian, i.e. Standardbearerson), Pamukçuyan (Pamboukjian, i.e. Cottonsellerson), Terziyan (Terzian, i.e. Tailorson), Kavukçuyan (Kavoukjian, i.e. Hatmakerson), etc?
Or Greek surnames which are pure Turkish like Kazancıakis ( Kazantzakis) or Kazancıoğlu ( Kazanjoglou) or Kazancıdis ( Kazantzidis) which all mean "Potmakerson"; or Karamanlı ( Karamanlis, i.e. From Karaman), Çarık (Tsarouchis, i.e. Shoe), Yemeniciakis (Yemendzakis, i.e. Scarfsellerson), Kuyumcu (Koujioumtzis, i.e. Jeweller), Yeniçeri (Genitsaris, i.e. Janissary), Çolak (Tsiolakoudi, i.e. Armless), Paçacıoğlu (Patsatzoglou, i.e. Trousercuffmakerson), Kasap (Chasapis, i.e. Butcher), etc?
is the same like the greek word democracy(δημοκρατια)has survived in the whole world and mostly thousands in latin and latinised languages. but this does not mean that the whole world is greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 10:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Or why do Bosnians say "Ramazan Bayram Mübarek Olsun" (completely in Turkish) instead of the Arabic form "Eid Mubarak", if the Ottoman culture was plain "Muslim" without any Turkish character, as you are trying to imply? Flavius Belisarius 19:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, I, as a Turk, probably know Ottoman history, identity and character much better than you can or ever will (because I am a part of it). Both of my paternal great-grandfathers were Ottoman generals, who also served as generals in the early Turkish Republic. One of them got married in Prijepolje (Ottoman Empire, today in Serbia) while in duty, and a few years later my grandfather was born in Yemen (Ottoman Empire) during WWI. The language which they spoke was practically the same with the language which I speak today. Anyone who denies the essential Turkish character of the Ottoman Empire clearly doesn't know much about the subject. Honestly speaking, I doubt that the Cambridge professor you mentioned can understand Ottoman Turkish better than I do. Flavius Belisarius 20:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Do whatever you can - I'll be there to correct the errors if I see any, including resources, of course. Flavius Belisarius 20:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A.Garnet, thank you for your good will in resolving the "question", but I really don't understand what's behind this "complex" in the first place. Flavius Belisarius 20:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Miskin, here's my final message regarding the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnVK03cjQ_U
Flavius Belisarius 19:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Re:
This is fallacious in at least two ways. First of all, there is no particular reason to believe that someone with personal experience of something understands it better than outside observers, which is one reason that Wikipedia has a no original research policy. Secondly, many non-Turks have participated as much in Ottoman history as many Turks: my own great-grandfathers, for example, were born in Ottoman Crete.
Re:
I'm not sure what bearing the relationship of Ottoman and modern Turkish has on the question of ethnic identification under the Ottoman Empire, but this, too, is a problematic statement. I don't know how your great-grandfathers spoke in 1920, but presumably you don't either. Every serious scholar of Turkish acknowledges that Turkish today has changed radically from Ottoman Turkish. Mustafa Kemal's famous 1927 speech Nutuk had to be translated into "modern language" by the 1960's, and again (!) in the 1980's. (Geoffrey Lewis, The Turkish Language Reform: A Catastrophic Success, pp. 2-4) -- Macrakis 21:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I can clearly understand the original Nutuk by Atatürk, just like I can clearly understand his speech in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA5gaURc2jc
Flavius Belisarius 15:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and many Greeks can understand the Koine New Testament. That doesn't mean that the language hasn't changed. -- Macrakis 15:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
You are describing language change; old words and constructions don't disappear from one day to the next, though I understand the Persian izafet is pretty much gone except in idioms/compounds like aksıseda; and how many Turks today do you think know the correct Ottoman plural of galat-ı meşhur? Anyway, as I said before, the relationship of late Ottoman Turkish to Modern Turkish isn't the issue here.
Anyway, the original issue was whether it makes sense to call the Ottoman Empire "a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state". This seems to me wrong in a variety of ways. First of all, the state itself (as opposed to its subjects) was not "multi-religious"; it was clearly and unequivocally a Muslim state: the legal system was based on Sharia law, Muslims had special privileges and duties, the Sultan often claimed to be the Caliph, etc. The population, of course, included large numbers of non-Muslims: Christians of various varieties and Jews, and even non- Peoples of the Book (largely as slaves). Their relationship with the state was as zimmis, a status defined by Sharia law. "Ethnic" is probably not an appropriate word to describe the different linguistic and religious groups within the Empire, since group definition was quite different from what we think of nowadays as "ethnic". Finally, I am not sure the "Turkish-ruled" is a useful term. For one thing, I don't think the Ottoman elite considered itself "Turkish" until the end of the 19th century. Wouldn't it be clearer to simply say that the origins of the ruling dynasty were Turkish and the language of administration was Ottoman Turkish?
That leaves us with something like:
Thoughts? -- Macrakis 22:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, the Byzantines never called themselves "Greek". They defined themselves as "Roman" (Romaios/Romiosini). That's why the Muslims called them "Rum" (Roman). But they were, essentially, "Greeks", just like the Ottoman Turks were essentially "Turks". Despite the fact that neither of them (Byzantines and Ottomans) directly used these specific names (Greek and Turk, respectively). Flavius Belisarius 21:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are similarities in the two cases. And indeed, the "Greek" nature of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire is less obvious than you might think. Of course the Byzantines spoke Greek, and wrote archaicizing Attic Greek just as the Ottomans spoke Turkish, and wrote, well, they wrote an interesting amalgam of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic. But the modern conception of continuity from ancient Greece to the present was essentially invented by the 19th-century nationalist historian Paparrigopoulos. Precisely as you say, the Byzantines did not call themselves Hellenes (a word reserved for pagans) until very late, just as the Ottomans did not call themselves Turks (a word reserved for peasants and nomads). Plethon, who tried to revive the link to ancient philosophy, had his writings burned as heretical. Why? Because the Eastern Roman Empire saw itself first as Christian, not Greek, just as the Ottoman Empire saw itself first as Muslim, not Turkish. -- Macrakis 03:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
the byzantine empire were firstly christian,secondly greek and then whatever just the ottoman firstly muslim then turkish and then whatever.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 ( talk) 10:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
That is a good parallel between the two Empires, though I don't agree that the connection with ancient Greece was invented - Constantinople was originally an ancient Greek colony and until its fall in 1453 it was decorated by both Christian and pagan culture (such statues of Olympian Gods and figures from Greek mythology). All studies in literature and philosophy were essentially the same as that of Hellenistic Alexandria and Athens, and the bulk of the Empire was geographically located on the areas of ancient Greek colonisation. Most importantly, the Empire was since the time of Justinian viewed in the eyes of the non-Byzantines as nothing but a corrupted continuation of ancient Greece (and even 'Rum' came to mean also 'ancient Greece' in Arabic). However it's wrong to refer to Byzantium as if it were always an ethnic Greek state, as it is wrong and anachronistic to refer to the Holy Roman Empire as an ethnic German state. It's true that Byzantium was founded on an ancient Greek city and fell consciously as a Christian Greek state, but for the most part of its history it was first Orthodox Christian and then Greek, just as the Ottoman Empire was first Islamic. In both cases (Ottomans and Byzantines), the foreigners called them "Turks" and "Greeks" respectively, and their empires "Turkey" and "Greece", but this should not allow anachronistic implications about those two states. Yes there was Turkish nationalism in the late Ottoman Empire, and yes there was Greek nationalism in the middle-late Byzantine Empire, but none of them were ethnic states, they were religious imperial powers. However, unlike Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire was not founded on Turkish-speaking lands nor did it ever reduce itself to an ethnically homogeneous population. Also, unlike Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire had never preserved a "classical Turkic" culture, for Islam was the only Turkish culture. The most important thing here is Quataert's statement:
As for a "Turkish Empire", state power relied on a similarly heterogeneous mix of peoples. The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered
The article is implying the opposite of the above statement. It anachronistically applies Kemalist nationalist thought on a Islamic Imperial state. The irony is that if what Belisarius suggests had been true, the Ottoman Empire would have never become as great as it did. This is what Quataert states at the beginning of his book. Miskin 14:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
"Let's be realistic: All former Ottoman nations, apart from the Turks, describe the date of independence of their state as "liberation from the Turks"; whereas Turkey proudly considers itself as a "successor state" of the Ottoman Empire."
As usually, you overestimate your knowledge on the topic, and you couldn't be more wrong. The
Battle of Navarino was essentially the event which instigated the French colonisation of
Magreb. Today
Algerian and
Tunisian historiography views this "break-up" from the Ottoman Empire as a national destruction. As for the Successor states of the Ottoman Empire, those were essentially all nation-states that were created upon the former's dissolution. The claim that "I know Ottoman history better than you ever will because I'm a Turk" is simply laughable, let alone against the spirit of wikipedia and NPOV. One thing that should be made clear is that Wikipedia considers editors' personal family experiences as irrelevant, and I won't be responding to such "evidence". As far as
WP:ATT is concerned, this is largely a waste of time. The unintelligibility between modern and Ottoman Turkish is simply irrelevant to the topic at hand. To make the long story short, I don't disagree that the Ottomans were essentially Turks, as well as the direct ancestors of modern Turks, but I certainly refuse to accept that the Ottoman Empire was a Turkish version of 3rd Reich, in which a sole ethnicity "commanded and conquered" other nations and peoples. As Quataert says, "The Ottoman Empire succeeded because it incorporated the energies of the vastly varied peoples it encountered". I think this should no longer be neglected by the Turkish editors in the article.
Miskin 14:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Flavius Belisarius 20:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Miskin is right to say that the integrity and the vitality of the Ottoman Empire (consisting of various ethnicities and religions) is due to ignoring all kinds of ethnicity and ruling the community of Ottoman empire by recognizing differences in the view point of religions such as calling the community as muslim and non-muslim. The applications of policies in Ottoman Empire are carried out according to religions. However, this fact can not be used as a proof for the statement that Turkish identity does have the same amount of influence on Ottoman Empire in all aspects as other ethnicities that lived in Ottomans' territory and contributed to Ottoman Empire. In conclusion, denying the effect of Turkish identity (can be considered as 'special' situation with respect to other cultures and nations)on all stages of the history of Ottoman Empire results totally true but truncated historical information about Ottoman Empire. Thanks and calm down please. [butoprak] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.226.232.10 ( talk) 23:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The ratio of non-Muslims was "1 in every 5" during the late Ottoman period. Today, it is something like "1 in every 500". Losing the highly populated Balkans, CUP's eastern policies, population exchanges and the Istanbul Pogrom, all caused Turkey to lose its multicultural basis. So, the imperial ambition to create a world empire and to integrate all people into the Ottoman notion is the politics of the past. Today, we have a totally different story. Deliogul 12:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Some of you are applying post-18th century ideas like nationalism and ethnicism to the Ottoman Empire, which during its rule promoted none of these idealisms and in fact greatly suffered from them. Yet, user Miskin has the false belief -he holds on to this belief for 2 years now- nonMuslims had any kind of integrity within the Ottoman ruling class. NonMuslims were second class citizens. I am looking forward to anyone refuting this, that would be eye-opening information for me too. Despite of the wealth they garnered under the Ottoman flag, nonMuslims didn't have the same rights as Muslims until late years which showed little progress under Western dictation. And those Balkan and Anatolian Muslims, those who made the skeleton of the Ottoman Empire, are the ancestors of modern day Turks of Turkey. So if we will examine the Ottoman Empire from our 21th century perspective, we can say the Ottoman Empire was Turkish ruled. I believe Turkey has more connections with Ottoman Empire than modern Greece has with Byzantine Empire... I am looking forward to anyone refuting that last comment as well.-- Doktor Gonzo 23:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
^^You guys have a nice discussion going on here, but you're straying from the main topic a bit, I think. Miskin said that the Ottoman Empire was "Islamic". Let me clarify something for you, Flavius Belisarius. Islam is a religion. Religions are not defined nor constrained by languages. It is true that the Ottoman Empire was based in Turkey, and that the language spoken was near modern-day-Turkish, but that is, once again, a language. I believe that you could call the empire both "Turkish" and "Islamic" because it consists largely of BOTH elements. -- Youknowme786 ( talk) 03:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
WE KNOW YOU HATE US BUT...
-I am turk.I know that we are(ottomans)turk.They are real turks.They are coming from Kayı tribe.
-Turk means brave people and warrior people.Turk means that in our turkish.
-You say ottomans are not turk.They are turk.Yes,an example some armenians have turkish seunames or some turks have other ethnic groups's surname like Lazs,Arabs...Because,Ottoman empire had a system named that:DEVŞİRME...İn this system some children take in their towns and we educuate them all like Sokollu Mehmed Pasha... -BRİTİSHES PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH.Ottoman empire's first politic was people could do their religion.I and my country know you(britishes,greeks,frenches...)dont like us because of wars but please think that:İf ottomans dont permit greeks,armenians and Jewish people to do their religion there will be a caos.Please you can hate us but you must thank us because when we get Greece or bulgaria we could spoke turkish in bulgaria.Bulgars and greeks can talk turkish now and turkish is a more popular language.But we permit you.We have a proverb that: Feed the bird and it kills you.We always won wars against you and you hate us.I agree it is so bad feeling...:)
-Ottomans wanted to conquewr all the world but they can only conquer to:Baltic sea,atlantic ocean,Sudan,to Iran.What can we do god makes us like warriors.But unfortunately god makes you like good diplomaticians and politicians to conquer countrys by capturing their rules and economys like now.You are doing us(turkey).Our President Erdoğan wants do an islamic empire.But we are not religionus.We are muslims but we dont like islamic revolution.Because we are turk we cant live under a other flag.We want independent.Please look:
-Turkish independence war -Mustafa Kemal Atatürk -Turks Military History -Turks History -Republic of Turkey
BESLE KARGAYI OYSUN GÖZÜNÜ.
A TURK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.205.50 ( talk) 19:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Flag is wrong.. This flag is Turkey's flag.. Ottoman flag is different
The current flag of Turkey was also the first official Ottoman national flag, adopted with the Tanzimat reforms in 1844.
Before 1844 there was no Ottoman "national flag". Every Ottoman institution had its own flag.
The supposed "Ottoman flag" which appeared previously was actually the "Ottoman Navy Flag" and was used between 1793 and 1844. It was never used as a "national flag".
Turkish flags in Istanbul, 1920 (Ottoman period):
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/kararkoy02.jpg
http://www.osmanzengin.com/ESKi__iSTANBUL/tepebasi.jpg
Turkish flags in Istanbul, 1927 (Turkish Republic period):
http://www.azizistanbul.com/eskifoto05/bahcekapieminonu1927.jpg
http://www.istanbul.gov.tr/Portals/Istanbul/eskiimg/esk02.jpg
Flavius Belisarius 20:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have seen a few articles where various historical flags are used (i.e. Austro-Hungarian Empire, which used a naval ensign, I believe). However, Flavius seems to have his flags down. Either way, when dealing with older states that preceed our modern nation state era, I think this is a relatively minor issue. As noted, there were myriad flags used for different purposes throughout the Ottoman period. I say let Flav's flag stand. Hiberniantears 20:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually your arguement about postcards not being reliable is right. But I still think that it'd be an overstatement to say that the flags were identical, since the proportions of present day Turkish flag were not standartized until 1936. I just noticed Image:Jihad 1914.jpg (right) is one of the better examples on this subject. It's a late ottoman flag, used for an official purpose. And indeed the position of the star looks alike with the present-day Turkish flag while the thickness of the crescent differs minimally. Under these circumstances we can just leave it as it is in the article, or I can make another flag just nominally different, just to show that it didn't have standarts before.
Opinions?
Regards; Kerem Özcan 13:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Well I just noticed that the alternative flag I made a while ago has replaced the Turkish flag that was in the article. Regarding a 1914 image I made another alternative (On the right). I am OK with the usage of any, including the 8 pointed flag and the present day turkish flag. Opinions? Kerem Özcan ( talk) 15:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I just wanted to ask editors familiar with Ottoman history to take a look at List of Iranian states and empires. The article claims that Ottoman Empire was an Iranian state and to justify this cites some sources that only mention some cultural borrowings from Persians. But the same arguement can be made about Arabs, etc since the Empire was a multicultural state. But I seriuosly doubt that anybody (whether Ottomans or their neighbors) ever called them an Iranian state. Heja Helweda 17:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Removed the paragraph:
Rural slavery was largely a Caucasian phenomenon, carried to Anatolia and Rumelia after the Circassian migration in 1864. Conflicts emerged within the immigrant community and the Ottoman Establishment, at times, intervened on the side of the slaves
This is strictly revisionist history. Prime Example; Shaka the leader of the Zulu nation had over Fifteen Hundred personal Slaves. Two Hundred of which he put to death as a show of Mourning when his mother died. There are numerous Historical facts that are agreed upon many scholars that Slavery was a phenomena of many different races.
Martinj63 02:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Still the paragraph is biased as there are numerous cultures that have and some cases still practice slavery today.
Martinj63 20:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the following section from the article which was added by the above named editor, and rolling the article back to it's previous version. I don't think the text below is wrong, but I would like to see it worked into the existing text, which has been here for some time, and seems to have been fairly established. This represents the lead to the Society section. Hiberniantears 20:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC) Although it can be said that the legacy of Arab rule was the religion of Islam, for the Turkish their claim to a legacy belongs to the formation of the Ottoman Empire. We see the Ottoman Empire being described as a bureaucratic state, holding different regions within a single administrative and fiscal system (Hourani 207). In fact the Ottoman Empire would last for six hundred years (1299-1923) and would encompass what is modern day Turkey, the Balkans and all of the Arab speaking nation states. Thus the Ottoman Empire would be home to a extremely diverse population ranging from the muslim majority to the minority population, specifically Christians and Jews who were referred to as the People of the Book.
I've proposed the creation of an Ottoman Empire WikiProject. The nomination can be found here. -- Hemlock Martinis 06:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This sounds great. I voiced my support on the proposal. Hiberniantears 18:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is not GA anymore, right? What is the last situation? Deniz T C 10:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The Ottoman empire was an Islamic empire , not a "multi ethnic empire" . This is not even in question in the historical and academic world. Even in Wikipedia article on Islams like here and here , the Ottoman empire is featured front and center as Islamic. Thus the intro should clearly state that fact.-- CltFn 12:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Taking a wider view of this, do we even need to establish the ethnic and religious identity of the Empire in the opening paragraph? The Roman Empire opens as such:
We could just use a variant of this, specific to the Ottoman Empire centered on the Sultan in Istanbul. Any thoughts? This way we create a fairly vanilla opening for an article which does experience a fair amount of ethnic/religious based edit-wars. I realize this is contrary to what I said previously, but maybe a more bland, straightforward opening is the way to go. Perhaps:
It is obvious to me why Ottoman Empire has lost its GA status, and I'm sure with a few changes it will be restored. This is what I saw:
Please visit Scotland in the High Middle Ages and see why that article is featured content! It has clear and concise paragraphs, beefy references done well, and has a primary and secondary source section which is necessary when so many references are included.
I hope others see what I am talking about. Happy editing! Monsieurdl 17:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, what do you think about this new Map of the greatest extension of the empire between 1566-1683:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ottoman_Empire_16-17th_century.jpg
thx. :) lynxxx 217.184.138.211 20:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The Map belongs (with few corrections) to: Harry W. Hazard, Atlas of Islamic History, Princeton 1954. and is in some definitve books of orientalistic in germany
bye, lynxxx 217.184.138.211 22:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
"...also known as the Turkish Empire or Turkey by its contemporaries, see the other names of the Ottoman State), was a multi-ethnic and multi-religious Turkish-ruled state....As such, the Ottomans regarded themselves as the heirs to both Roman and Islamic traditions, and hence rulers of a "Universal Empire" through this "unification of cultures".[1]"
How cute, a mutli-ethnic, multi-religious, Unification of cultures Utopia lead by the glorious Muslim masters in Contantinople.
Do the Chinese, British, Roman, French empires get such glowing Politically Correct reviews? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.106.248.211 ( talk) 13:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Er is een verkeerde vlag in het artikel geplaats. De vlag van de Ottomanen had een meerpuntige ster met een maansikkel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.248.185.43 ( talk) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
No. Mallerd ( talk) 22:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Lets have consistency here people. The Ottoman Sultanate conquered Byzantium. It did not succeed it. Otherwise, the claims of the Republic of Venice, Imperial Russia, Vatican City, Holy Roman Empire etc would have to be included - not to mention other successors in terms of spiritual and religious matters such as the Balkans who adhere to Orthodox Christianity. A concensus was reached with this matter. Tourskin ( talk) 08:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
All the above have a spiritual and a territorial claim above. Granted that Russia's conquest of the Crimea gives it limited claim.
And lets not forget the wretched Holy Roman Empire. Nothing seperates the Ottoman Sultanate from these listed powers - they all had a part in Byzantium's downfall, especially Venice, which conquered vast amounts of Roman and Greek land, and they all have a spiritual link. What do you say, do we play favorites or have double standards and include all of them or none? Nip it at the bud and get rid of these pretenders. The Link between Rome and Byzantium is tenuous at best, with so many Armenian and Macedonian usurpers. What link do you think a Turkic tribe originating from Central Asia has with an empire of antiquity that is not already shared by so many others? Tourskin ( talk) 18:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
they are not the succesors of teh byzantines or romans..thats just stupid....shouldnt the british be the succesors of the romans then as well? NO BECAUSE NOONE REPLACED THEM! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.170.135 ( talk) 08:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, let's see, what writes the experts?
"The Ottomans, in 1453, had destroyed the second Rome, Byzantium, that had endured for one thousand years, from the fourth through the fifteenth centuries. Through this act, the Ottoman state changed in status from regional power to world empire. As destroyer, the Ottoman Empire in some ways also was the inheritor of the Roman heritage in its eastern Byzantine form. Indeed, Sultan Mehmet II, the conqueror of Constantinople, explicitly laid down the claim that hewas a caesar, a latter-day emperor, and his sixteenth-century successor, S¨uleyman the Magnificent, sought Rome as the capstone of his career. Moreover, the Ottoman rulers, having conquered the second Rome, for the next four hundred-plus years honored its Roman founder in the name of the capital city. Until the end of the empire, the city’s name – the city of Constantine – Konstantiniyye/ Constantinople – remained in the Ottomans’ official correspondence, their coins, and on their postage stamps, after these came into use in the nineteenth century. In some respects, the Ottomans followed certain Byzantine administrative models. Like the Byzantines, the Ottomans practiced a kind of caesaro-papism, the system in which the state controlled the clergy. In the Ottoman judiciary the courts were run by judges, members of the religious class, the ulema. The Ottoman sultans appointed these judges and thus, like their Byzantine imperial predecessors, exercised a direct control over members of the religious establishment. In addition, to give another example of Byzantine–Ottoman continuities, Byzantine forms of land tenure carried over into the Ottoman era. While the Ottomans forged their own unique synthesis and were no mere imitators of their predecessors, their debt to the Byzantines was real. Other powerful influences shaped the Ottoman polity besides the Byzantine. As we shall see, the Ottoman Empire emerged out of the anarchy surrounding the Turkish nomadic movements into the Middle East after 1000 CE, population movements triggered by uncertain causes in their central Asiatic homelands. It was the last great Turco-Islamic state, following those of the Seljuks and of Tamerlane, born of the migration of the Turkish peoples out of central Asia westward into the Middle East and the Balkans (see chapter 2). The shamanist beliefs of those nomads remained deeply embedded in the spiritual practices andworld view of the Ottoman dynasty. Similarly, pre-Islamic Turkish usages remained important in Ottoman administrative circles, despite the later influx of administrative and legal practices from the Islamic world of Iran and the eastern Mediterranean. Ultimately, the Ottoman system should be seen as a highly effective blend of influences deriving from Byzantium, the Turkish nomads, and the Balkan states, as well as the Islamic world."
Quotet from: DONALD QUATAERT: The Ottoman Empire, 1700–1922 Second Edition. Binghamton University, State University of New York 2005. p. 4. Greetz, lynxxx -- 78.54.221.42 ( talk) 02:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The section headed "Stagnation and reform" starts with this sentence:
What does this mean? Were these territories ceded to Austria, or did they secede to Austria? "Cede" is usually a transitive verb. Who did the ceding? rowley ( talk) 18:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
For unclear reasons, a slow edit war is going on over which of two rather similar paintings should be used to illustrate the entry of Mehmet the Conqueror in Constantinople. Please argue your choice here on the talk page, so that we may hope to reach a consensus on this choice of paramount importance, instead of continuing to practice unmotivated undos. -- Lambiam 10:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Romance is in the soul of the nation-states of our time. I mean Vercingetorix heavily defeated against Julius Caesar but he is depicted as an epic hero in France's national identity, Obilic just faked Murad Hüdavendigar and stabbed him but he is a saint according to the Orthodox Church. I assume we all know that none of the Ottoman Sultans would do such an unsafe thing like marching into a newly conquered city which was still swimming in bloodshed and anarchy. Deliogul ( talk) 23:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I am for visual and historic reasons supporting the picture on the left. I think it has already won this "war", but I am not sure. Yojimbo501 ( talk) 23:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
How is it just faked? It was quite an achievement, if not, I'd like to see you try. Mallerd ( talk) 14:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
i think the map doesn't show the "full" wideness of the empire at its peak. the empire also spanned to saudi arabia, and it included whole morocco, algeria, libya, egypt, yemen, oman, united arab emirates, kuwait, iraq, syria, and some parts of iran. the map here doesn't show all of them. it only shows the territories when the empire was in decline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evrenos ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin ( talk) 20:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
the section begining "==Growth (1453–1683)==" ends with the statement "Curtis loves little men" it doesn't appear in the edit this page section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.76.221.153 ( talk) 06:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear colleagues, I have uploaded a new SVG version of coat of arms of the Ottoman Empire. It would be great if you could change from the old rasterized version to the new one. Any comments welcome in Wikipedia Commons. See image here: Image:Osmanli-nisani.svg -- 78.84.111.131 ( talk) 12:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This was the real Ottoman flag of 1844-1922, as proven by the links (photos) in its description page:
The flag below (currently in the Ottoman Empire template) is both inaccurate and so ugly that an Ottoman sultan would probably behead a tailor who would sew such a horrid thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Country_data_Ottoman_Empire
151.57.202.37 ( talk) 23:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Photo from 1908 (the gathering at Sultanahmet Square during the Young Turk Revolution):
Photo from 1918 (protests at Sultanahmet Square against the occupation of Istanbul by the Allies):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/SultanahmetMitingi.jpg
151.57.204.247 ( talk) 02:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this photo from 1914 is by far the best evidence in hand:
http://www.turquie-memoire.com/jihad.jpg
151.57.204.247 ( talk) 02:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The opening paragraph says "The Ottoman Empire, also called the Osmanic Empire or Osmanian Empire...." The names "Osmanic" and "Osmanian" are rare and obsolete, and were never as common as other the obsolete terms "Turkish Empire" and "Turkey". So what are they doing at the top of the article? -- Macrakis ( talk) 08:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
How can it be called "Osmanian"? I bet %90 of the people who are aware of the empire don't even know Osman I. Actually, it is sad because his life, which is now a combination of reality and myth, is very similar to the lifes of other popular rulers of his kind. People generally know Fatih, Kanuni, Yavuz and, if you are interested in 19th century politics, Abdülhamit II. Therefore, somebody giving such an alternative name to the empire is not really possible. Deliogul ( talk) 22:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
SINCE 1453 88.233.195.35 ( talk) 13:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The flag shown in the article is not the official flag of the Ottoman emipre! Actually, it's the flag of the current Turkish republic.
This is the Ottoman flag
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ottoman_Flag.svg/800px-Ottoman_Flag.svg.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.236.247 ( talk) 10:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[5] Mallerd ( talk) 20:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me why the Ottomans chose the side of Germany and Austria in WWI? I saw in the Suleiman the Magnificent article that there was a rivalry between Austria and the Ottoman empire even in the 20th century. Besides, the Ottoman empire was somewhat rescued by France and England in the dawn of the Crimean war. Mallerd ( talk) 18:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there any information at all that the Ottoman Empire may have tried to colonize the Americas, perhaps Brazil, Colombia, the Caribbean, those regions? It's pretty much certain they didn't have much any influence in there for very long, but being the powerhouse of Asia that they were, wouldn't they have tried to follow the Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, French, English into the Americas? the only mention in this article is that Ottoman ships were spotted off the coast of North America in 1660 or so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndarielHalo ( talk • contribs) 13:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
AndarielHalo ( talk) 14:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
It appears to be a POV creation which does not match historical reality. I have removed it for that reason. Serious inaccuracies include, showing Cyprus as part of the Ottoman Empire throughout the 19th century and in 1913, showing what is now Azerbaijan as part of the Ottman empire in the 19th century, showing the Igdir plain as part of the Ottoman empire throughout the 19th century and in 1913, showing the Russian province of Kars as part of the Ottoman empire from the 1880s and in 1913, showing a completely fabricated territory as "Ottoman empire" for 1922 (most of central Turkey was in the hands of Turkish nationalist forces at that time and not in the control of the Ottoman Sultan based in Constantinople). Meowy 01:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Is there a place i can find accurate maps of the Ottoman Empire from the 19th century on? i would like to create the animated gif map with the correct information -- Rafaelherrejon ( talk) 06:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)fie
The massively expensive and risky expedition that led to the battle of Lepanto in 1571 was no mere "revenge attack" - Europe was petrified by the constant Islamic advance and though earlier weatern historians were quite wrong to announce that the empire began its decline with this battle (it takes much more than a battle to send an empire down), it should be noted that it did check its naval power in the Mediterranean despite the huge construction effort. Many factors played a part in the calculations of all the parties involved but that this was an important milestone in history is indisputable. Too often the focus is upon commercial aspects but as the players of the time knew, mercantile wealth and naval dominance lays the foundation for invasion. 02:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Some edits ago I added numerous succeeding countries. But now they've been reverted back to just Turkey as the only one. My question is was it wrong to add these countries? I know that the French Union does state every country that it split up into as succeeding countries. Sorry though if it's a dumb question but I am quite new. ZDoom ( talk) 19:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
The legal successor state and the countries which now control its former territories are two very different things. Both are worth mentioning, but shouldn't be mixed up with one another. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)