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In your opening sentence it is written; "Otto (or Othon) de la Roche (died 1234) was a Burgundian nobleman from the castle of La Roche-sur-l'Ognon, in the Franche-Comté commune of Rigney, Doubs. He joined the Fourth Crusade in 1204 and became the first Duke of Athens." If I might ask, just what is the reliability of the source that identifies Otto de la Roche, as being from the house of "La Roche-sur-l'Ognon?" It seems that there were at least two famous "La Roche" families in recorded history! But one was represented on the "coat of arms" as a "fish", etc.! Whilst the other was not! 69.92.23.64 ( talk) 02:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
Setton writes that Othon's "loyalty [to Emperor Henry] may have cost him Thebes, for the Cadmea was now in the possession of Albertino da Canossa, one of the chief rebels, who apparently claimed the city for himself" (Setton 1976, p. 28.).
Setton has probably written "late 1207" by inadvertence : he quotes Gregorovius (note 39) where the date is deduced from a letter of Innocent III (the one about Archbishop Berard and the treasurer of the Cathedral) which is dated from January 1208, but here "1208" means in fact 1209 since the year began in April in those times (cf the datation in note 40) - although Gregorovius didn't notice and misdated the letter. Since Setton accepts the datation of the letter - which is the sole basis for the date of the marriage - in his note, there is no reason to believe that he really meant 1207 instead of 1208.-- Phso2 ( talk) 19:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
The article gives two possible wives for Othon de la Roche, citing Setton (1976) and Longnon (1973). These do not agree with each other, the former stating that Othon was married to an Elisabet (Isabelle) de Ray and the latter that she was the daughter of Clarembaud IV de Chappes. It's evident from Setton's work that he hasn't used or seen Longnon's article - he cites the same author's earlier work several times. When discussing Othon's familial relations, including Isabelle's parentage, Setton (page 417 note 67) relies entirely on Guillaume (1757) and Hopf (1873), even noting himself that "As always, the genealogical tables given in Hopf's Chron. gréco-romanes are to be used with extreme caution. It's peculiar, then that no more explicit effort has been taken to verify the genealogical information he presents.
From Longnon's 1973 article, it's pretty clear that the wife of Othon really was the daughter of Clarembaud IV de Chappes. He supports with a document dated December 1236 where Clarembaud V of Chappes makes a donation to a monastery for his soul's rest, the souls of his mother and father, his wife and especially Elizabeth his sister, duchess of Athens (Longnon, 1973, p. 64 and note 22 for references). Longnon also mentions that Isabelle occurs several times in her father's charters dated 1189, 1194, and 1198. In the article Longnon primarily discusses an act of 1251 which explicitly names Guy de la Roche and Othon de la Roche as brothers and as sons of Othon de la Roche and Isabelle.
The Lordship of Ray appears to have been in the family before Othon's marriage. Medlands, here cites Alberic de Trois Fontaines, who in 1205, stated that Othon, lord or Ray, was the son of Pons, lord of Ray "Otto de Rupe, cuiusdam nobilis Pontii de Rupe in Burgundia filius". Consequently, if Othon was already called lord of Ray in 1205, and his marriage is supposed to have taken place in 1207/8 (previous discussion, above), then he cannot have received the lordship of Ray by right of his wife, nor would his father have been called lord of Ray.
What am I missing that suggests that the article shouldn't specify that Othon's wife was Elisabeth de Chappes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manigeen ( talk • contribs) 02:54, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
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In your opening sentence it is written; "Otto (or Othon) de la Roche (died 1234) was a Burgundian nobleman from the castle of La Roche-sur-l'Ognon, in the Franche-Comté commune of Rigney, Doubs. He joined the Fourth Crusade in 1204 and became the first Duke of Athens." If I might ask, just what is the reliability of the source that identifies Otto de la Roche, as being from the house of "La Roche-sur-l'Ognon?" It seems that there were at least two famous "La Roche" families in recorded history! But one was represented on the "coat of arms" as a "fish", etc.! Whilst the other was not! 69.92.23.64 ( talk) 02:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
Setton writes that Othon's "loyalty [to Emperor Henry] may have cost him Thebes, for the Cadmea was now in the possession of Albertino da Canossa, one of the chief rebels, who apparently claimed the city for himself" (Setton 1976, p. 28.).
Setton has probably written "late 1207" by inadvertence : he quotes Gregorovius (note 39) where the date is deduced from a letter of Innocent III (the one about Archbishop Berard and the treasurer of the Cathedral) which is dated from January 1208, but here "1208" means in fact 1209 since the year began in April in those times (cf the datation in note 40) - although Gregorovius didn't notice and misdated the letter. Since Setton accepts the datation of the letter - which is the sole basis for the date of the marriage - in his note, there is no reason to believe that he really meant 1207 instead of 1208.-- Phso2 ( talk) 19:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
The article gives two possible wives for Othon de la Roche, citing Setton (1976) and Longnon (1973). These do not agree with each other, the former stating that Othon was married to an Elisabet (Isabelle) de Ray and the latter that she was the daughter of Clarembaud IV de Chappes. It's evident from Setton's work that he hasn't used or seen Longnon's article - he cites the same author's earlier work several times. When discussing Othon's familial relations, including Isabelle's parentage, Setton (page 417 note 67) relies entirely on Guillaume (1757) and Hopf (1873), even noting himself that "As always, the genealogical tables given in Hopf's Chron. gréco-romanes are to be used with extreme caution. It's peculiar, then that no more explicit effort has been taken to verify the genealogical information he presents.
From Longnon's 1973 article, it's pretty clear that the wife of Othon really was the daughter of Clarembaud IV de Chappes. He supports with a document dated December 1236 where Clarembaud V of Chappes makes a donation to a monastery for his soul's rest, the souls of his mother and father, his wife and especially Elizabeth his sister, duchess of Athens (Longnon, 1973, p. 64 and note 22 for references). Longnon also mentions that Isabelle occurs several times in her father's charters dated 1189, 1194, and 1198. In the article Longnon primarily discusses an act of 1251 which explicitly names Guy de la Roche and Othon de la Roche as brothers and as sons of Othon de la Roche and Isabelle.
The Lordship of Ray appears to have been in the family before Othon's marriage. Medlands, here cites Alberic de Trois Fontaines, who in 1205, stated that Othon, lord or Ray, was the son of Pons, lord of Ray "Otto de Rupe, cuiusdam nobilis Pontii de Rupe in Burgundia filius". Consequently, if Othon was already called lord of Ray in 1205, and his marriage is supposed to have taken place in 1207/8 (previous discussion, above), then he cannot have received the lordship of Ray by right of his wife, nor would his father have been called lord of Ray.
What am I missing that suggests that the article shouldn't specify that Othon's wife was Elisabeth de Chappes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manigeen ( talk • contribs) 02:54, 3 January 2021 (UTC)