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Yep, this article is a mess. And
Dr.K. is right; we need reputable sources to include any of these negative allegations. Additionally, even if all the statements are verifiably true, the article needs to be cleaned up for NPOV and to avoid repetition.
The broken links, Google Drive, etc, should be easy to identify and remove. The more difficult issue is with the Russian and Uzbek language articles. I'll try to find someone from ru and uz Wikipedias who's uninvolved and willing to take a look at them, and I'll do what I can with Google Translate.
Well I for one support the removal - Many editors remove sourced content under bs/false claims and unfortunately I thought the same here, Anyway out of the 3 source only one is live and even that isn't a reliable source, The claim is also on his
Uzbek article again backed up with the exact same sources, Seems like a smear campaign IMHO. –
Davey2010Talk19:36, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) @
Guanaco: Thank you Guanaco. As I mentioned at BLPN, and on my talk, the removed material was full of links that did not work, links that did not have the material claimed, and at least one link from Google drive containing a letter from a university. The removed text also included language accusing the BLP subject of lying. I am pretty sure this is an OR-based attack piece, hence my removal. This stuff is also in no-way BLP-compliant.
Dr.K.19:38, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Davey2010: Hi Davey. Believe me, it was very hard for me to revert editors such as yourself, and Jim1138, whom I know and greatly respect. I don't know Guanaco but I understood he is also a very good editor, and that made my revert all that much harder. But I knew it was because of the foreign sources. When I looked at these sources, and also at the language of the now removed text, I knew we had an OR-fueled attack piece. Therefore, I removed it, knowing that you and the other editors would understand my reasons.
Dr.K.19:45, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi
Dr.K., No worries I'm just glad you looked and removed before it was protected! :), Unfortunately many newbies (even article subjects) remove negative content about that person/themselves quite alot so it's easy just to assume that especially here, Alls I can say is thank the lord someone checked and removed the protection was applied! :). Thanks, –
Davey2010Talk19:55, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your kind words Davey. What a mess, due to these weird foreign-language sources. I agree, it was fortunate to have that piece removed before the article got protected. That, and the fact that all editors involved were great, including two of them whom I know and I greatly respect. :)
Dr.K.20:03, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I'm not finding anything of value; it seems that blog spam is still recognizable when you put it through Google Translate. I also notified the Uzbek Wikipedia admin who protected the article over there, for comment.
If no one objects before protection expires, I'd say we have a consensus to remove everything not in the current version. —
Guanaco20:05, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi everyone! No objection from me either. I'm the primary author of both the English and Uzbek entries on Makhkamov. While writing the criticism section, I relied both on online and print media. (I still have the scanned copies of newspaper and journal articles about Makhamov.) The reason I meticulously researched his contradictory claims is that he personally contacted me to restore the entry about himself on the Russian Wikipedia. Ruwiki admins have banned creating an article about him after he personally tried to write a panegyric about himself at least half a dozen times. Makhkamov even offered me money for getting the job done! He got in touch with me through a friend of mine. I obviously refused but did research the "alternative facts" about him. If the sources I cited are not entirely reliable, go ahead and remove them. As for the Uzbek article, I think we should hear what other uzwiki users have to say. The reason is that there is a lot of information about Makhmamov in the Uzbek language. I've protected the uzwiki page so that only registered users can edit it. I don't think it's a big hurdle for those who want to improve it.
Nataevtalk18:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
It's very unfortunate that the Ijodkor website is down. However, an archive of my report is available
here. As fot the Bekajon website, that doesn't change much. Moreover, Wayback Machine
has captured that article as well. Finally, sayyod.com is by far the most well-known Uzbek entertainment website. And stop wining about the protection. All you have to do is register to be able to edit the article. You also need to have made at least 100 edits. It seems you have only edited the article on Makhkamov. You sure seem to be trying very hard to whitewash him. By the way, there's no need to send threatening emails and insult me on my talk page. (What does
me living outside of Uzbekistan or my "low genealogy" have to do with anything?) Let's keep it civil. Otherwise you'll end up getting blocked.
Nataevtalk03:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Just so that everyone knows, Samarkandiy went on a tirade of personal attacks on my
talk page and has sent me threatening emails. I've warned him. If he doesn't stop, I'll have to block him.
Nataevtalk03:45, 27 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Can you add the content of the email I've sent you on this talk? I've never threatened anyone. You can't use your writing "tone" which you use for Uzbek community here, right? If you block me for my evidences that you're adding crap content, you don't deserve to be an admin of the Uzbek Wikipedia! Instead of cleaning articles you're destroying them. It's your choice!
Samarkandiy04:05, 27 May 2017 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.114.100.169 (
talk) reply
I've cited my own article because it was published by an independent outlet which has an editorial board. Davron Hotam, who is the head of the board, reviewed my article before publishing it. Moreover, I've cited print media as well. Specifically, over a dozen newspaper articles. I can provide copies of every single one of them. Mahkamov has made many contradictory claims and anyone interested in this issue can check it for himself. His case is similar to that of
Essjay. FYI, Нодир Атаев is in Cyrillic, not Latin. Don't get confused.
Nataevtalk04:07, 31 May 2017 (UTC)reply
No, it wasn't. I first had my report published, then cited it (along with over a dozen published articles) in the article.
Nataevtalk03:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes, most of the content which is written in Uzbek (FYI: I'm native Uzbek speaker) version by the user
Nataev is not verified. I checked all the links. Either they are not working or from blogger's website. The reason that I'm writing this here is
Nataev is trying to protect his own false/unverified content by putting Vandalized content excuse.
Samarkandiy01:31, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Perhaps you should start a discussion on
uz:munozara:Otabek Mahkamov, point out the problems with the dead links, google drive being used as a source, etc. Google drive is a
wp:selfpublished source and therefore not
WP:RS. I would think that there should be the equivalent of
wp:BLPN on
uz:. Or, ask an administrator. Give evidence, not just a claim. Make a list of supposed sources and links. Show they are either dead links / 404 or self-published sources. Argue it is in violation of
wp:BLP or its Uzbek equivalent. I would think that should result in the article being cleaned-up. The problem here is that many, including myself, are contently bombarded with removal of criticism often with bad-faith claims of bad/unreliable/self-published sources, etc. So, it is important to give evidence.
Jim1138 (
talk)
04:14, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi everyone! I've restored the deleted material. But first I rescued all the dead sources and added both titles and trans-titles. If you still have issues, please write about them here. I've also removed the protection from the Uzbek version of the article. Cheers!
Nataevtalk12:26, 5 February 2018 (UTC)reply
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
Yep, this article is a mess. And
Dr.K. is right; we need reputable sources to include any of these negative allegations. Additionally, even if all the statements are verifiably true, the article needs to be cleaned up for NPOV and to avoid repetition.
The broken links, Google Drive, etc, should be easy to identify and remove. The more difficult issue is with the Russian and Uzbek language articles. I'll try to find someone from ru and uz Wikipedias who's uninvolved and willing to take a look at them, and I'll do what I can with Google Translate.
Well I for one support the removal - Many editors remove sourced content under bs/false claims and unfortunately I thought the same here, Anyway out of the 3 source only one is live and even that isn't a reliable source, The claim is also on his
Uzbek article again backed up with the exact same sources, Seems like a smear campaign IMHO. –
Davey2010Talk19:36, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict) @
Guanaco: Thank you Guanaco. As I mentioned at BLPN, and on my talk, the removed material was full of links that did not work, links that did not have the material claimed, and at least one link from Google drive containing a letter from a university. The removed text also included language accusing the BLP subject of lying. I am pretty sure this is an OR-based attack piece, hence my removal. This stuff is also in no-way BLP-compliant.
Dr.K.19:38, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Davey2010: Hi Davey. Believe me, it was very hard for me to revert editors such as yourself, and Jim1138, whom I know and greatly respect. I don't know Guanaco but I understood he is also a very good editor, and that made my revert all that much harder. But I knew it was because of the foreign sources. When I looked at these sources, and also at the language of the now removed text, I knew we had an OR-fueled attack piece. Therefore, I removed it, knowing that you and the other editors would understand my reasons.
Dr.K.19:45, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi
Dr.K., No worries I'm just glad you looked and removed before it was protected! :), Unfortunately many newbies (even article subjects) remove negative content about that person/themselves quite alot so it's easy just to assume that especially here, Alls I can say is thank the lord someone checked and removed the protection was applied! :). Thanks, –
Davey2010Talk19:55, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your kind words Davey. What a mess, due to these weird foreign-language sources. I agree, it was fortunate to have that piece removed before the article got protected. That, and the fact that all editors involved were great, including two of them whom I know and I greatly respect. :)
Dr.K.20:03, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
I'm not finding anything of value; it seems that blog spam is still recognizable when you put it through Google Translate. I also notified the Uzbek Wikipedia admin who protected the article over there, for comment.
If no one objects before protection expires, I'd say we have a consensus to remove everything not in the current version. —
Guanaco20:05, 25 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi everyone! No objection from me either. I'm the primary author of both the English and Uzbek entries on Makhkamov. While writing the criticism section, I relied both on online and print media. (I still have the scanned copies of newspaper and journal articles about Makhamov.) The reason I meticulously researched his contradictory claims is that he personally contacted me to restore the entry about himself on the Russian Wikipedia. Ruwiki admins have banned creating an article about him after he personally tried to write a panegyric about himself at least half a dozen times. Makhkamov even offered me money for getting the job done! He got in touch with me through a friend of mine. I obviously refused but did research the "alternative facts" about him. If the sources I cited are not entirely reliable, go ahead and remove them. As for the Uzbek article, I think we should hear what other uzwiki users have to say. The reason is that there is a lot of information about Makhmamov in the Uzbek language. I've protected the uzwiki page so that only registered users can edit it. I don't think it's a big hurdle for those who want to improve it.
Nataevtalk18:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
It's very unfortunate that the Ijodkor website is down. However, an archive of my report is available
here. As fot the Bekajon website, that doesn't change much. Moreover, Wayback Machine
has captured that article as well. Finally, sayyod.com is by far the most well-known Uzbek entertainment website. And stop wining about the protection. All you have to do is register to be able to edit the article. You also need to have made at least 100 edits. It seems you have only edited the article on Makhkamov. You sure seem to be trying very hard to whitewash him. By the way, there's no need to send threatening emails and insult me on my talk page. (What does
me living outside of Uzbekistan or my "low genealogy" have to do with anything?) Let's keep it civil. Otherwise you'll end up getting blocked.
Nataevtalk03:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Just so that everyone knows, Samarkandiy went on a tirade of personal attacks on my
talk page and has sent me threatening emails. I've warned him. If he doesn't stop, I'll have to block him.
Nataevtalk03:45, 27 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Can you add the content of the email I've sent you on this talk? I've never threatened anyone. You can't use your writing "tone" which you use for Uzbek community here, right? If you block me for my evidences that you're adding crap content, you don't deserve to be an admin of the Uzbek Wikipedia! Instead of cleaning articles you're destroying them. It's your choice!
Samarkandiy04:05, 27 May 2017 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.114.100.169 (
talk) reply
I've cited my own article because it was published by an independent outlet which has an editorial board. Davron Hotam, who is the head of the board, reviewed my article before publishing it. Moreover, I've cited print media as well. Specifically, over a dozen newspaper articles. I can provide copies of every single one of them. Mahkamov has made many contradictory claims and anyone interested in this issue can check it for himself. His case is similar to that of
Essjay. FYI, Нодир Атаев is in Cyrillic, not Latin. Don't get confused.
Nataevtalk04:07, 31 May 2017 (UTC)reply
No, it wasn't. I first had my report published, then cited it (along with over a dozen published articles) in the article.
Nataevtalk03:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes, most of the content which is written in Uzbek (FYI: I'm native Uzbek speaker) version by the user
Nataev is not verified. I checked all the links. Either they are not working or from blogger's website. The reason that I'm writing this here is
Nataev is trying to protect his own false/unverified content by putting Vandalized content excuse.
Samarkandiy01:31, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Perhaps you should start a discussion on
uz:munozara:Otabek Mahkamov, point out the problems with the dead links, google drive being used as a source, etc. Google drive is a
wp:selfpublished source and therefore not
WP:RS. I would think that there should be the equivalent of
wp:BLPN on
uz:. Or, ask an administrator. Give evidence, not just a claim. Make a list of supposed sources and links. Show they are either dead links / 404 or self-published sources. Argue it is in violation of
wp:BLP or its Uzbek equivalent. I would think that should result in the article being cleaned-up. The problem here is that many, including myself, are contently bombarded with removal of criticism often with bad-faith claims of bad/unreliable/self-published sources, etc. So, it is important to give evidence.
Jim1138 (
talk)
04:14, 26 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Hi everyone! I've restored the deleted material. But first I rescued all the dead sources and added both titles and trans-titles. If you still have issues, please write about them here. I've also removed the protection from the Uzbek version of the article. Cheers!
Nataevtalk12:26, 5 February 2018 (UTC)reply