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MarshallBagramyan, the absurdity is using the name which we only come across in Armenian-language sources in an English-language encyclopædia. Unlike 'Ganja', 'Gandzak' was never this city's official name. If it had been, we could have used it to denote the timeframe when the city actually went under this name (e.g. "Immanuel Kant was born in Königsberg", not "...in Kaliningrad"), but the fact is that Ganja has never been part of an Armenian entity and never bore a universally-accepted Armenian name. You can use 'Gandzak' in hy:wiki, no problem. But not here. Parishan ( talk) 03:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
"Eastern Armenia" was not a political concept at the time, and politically Armenia had nothing to do with the site of Ganja after 387. The word Dalmatia is still used to denote coastal regions of Croatia, but that does not mean that it is rational using the Dalmatian toponym for Split (Spalatro) when talking about it in, say, the twentieth-century context. Parishan ( talk) 22:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, as Parishan correctly noted above, Oshin lived in the 11th century. Ganja was without any doubt a Muslim city at that time, and could not have had any name other than Ganja. Same as for the most of the 19th century it was Elisabethpol within the Russian empire. Grand master 12:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
We've got 2 dates for it, 1072 and 1226 (and 2 founders". The 1072 comes from Robinson, Francis; P. C. Hughes (1969). "Lampron: Castle of Armenian Cilicia". Anatolian Studies. British Institute at Ankara. 19: 183–207. doi:10.2307/3642624. JSTOR 3642624. That says:
" There is some discussion as to who, and how powerful, the first baron of Lampron was. Some historians consider that Oshin of Lampron was the same man as the general Aspietes whose exploits Anna Comnena both eulogises and condemns.8 Oshin we find in 1o97 taking advantage of the Turkish preoccupation with the advance of the First Crusade to make a daring sally out of the mountains and capture part of Adana, but as soon as Tancred appeared he lost heart and scuttled back to his fortress.9 Later he is mentioned with his brother Pazouni and the Roupenid Constantine as sending the Frankish generals all the provisions they needed.10 Aspietes, on the other hand, was grand enough to be created stratopedarch of all Cilicia by the Emperor Alexius in order to fend off the threat from Tancred in I Io8-9. His record was not good. He debauched himself in Mamistra for several months and fled as soon as fighting became imminent leaving the key castle of the Cilician Plain in Tancred's hands." Laurent has convincingly shown that it is both unlikely that the early career of Aspietes can be identified as that of Oshin and that we really do not know enough of the latter to speak with any certainty.12 Therefore, it seems more probable that the holders of Lampron had not gained the stature which Aspietes' command implies, but were still petty barons, happy to rely on the strength of their castle, and unlikely candidates for the control of all "
That doesn't back the claim the House was founded in 1072. Doug Weller talk 18:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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MarshallBagramyan, the absurdity is using the name which we only come across in Armenian-language sources in an English-language encyclopædia. Unlike 'Ganja', 'Gandzak' was never this city's official name. If it had been, we could have used it to denote the timeframe when the city actually went under this name (e.g. "Immanuel Kant was born in Königsberg", not "...in Kaliningrad"), but the fact is that Ganja has never been part of an Armenian entity and never bore a universally-accepted Armenian name. You can use 'Gandzak' in hy:wiki, no problem. But not here. Parishan ( talk) 03:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
"Eastern Armenia" was not a political concept at the time, and politically Armenia had nothing to do with the site of Ganja after 387. The word Dalmatia is still used to denote coastal regions of Croatia, but that does not mean that it is rational using the Dalmatian toponym for Split (Spalatro) when talking about it in, say, the twentieth-century context. Parishan ( talk) 22:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, as Parishan correctly noted above, Oshin lived in the 11th century. Ganja was without any doubt a Muslim city at that time, and could not have had any name other than Ganja. Same as for the most of the 19th century it was Elisabethpol within the Russian empire. Grand master 12:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
We've got 2 dates for it, 1072 and 1226 (and 2 founders". The 1072 comes from Robinson, Francis; P. C. Hughes (1969). "Lampron: Castle of Armenian Cilicia". Anatolian Studies. British Institute at Ankara. 19: 183–207. doi:10.2307/3642624. JSTOR 3642624. That says:
" There is some discussion as to who, and how powerful, the first baron of Lampron was. Some historians consider that Oshin of Lampron was the same man as the general Aspietes whose exploits Anna Comnena both eulogises and condemns.8 Oshin we find in 1o97 taking advantage of the Turkish preoccupation with the advance of the First Crusade to make a daring sally out of the mountains and capture part of Adana, but as soon as Tancred appeared he lost heart and scuttled back to his fortress.9 Later he is mentioned with his brother Pazouni and the Roupenid Constantine as sending the Frankish generals all the provisions they needed.10 Aspietes, on the other hand, was grand enough to be created stratopedarch of all Cilicia by the Emperor Alexius in order to fend off the threat from Tancred in I Io8-9. His record was not good. He debauched himself in Mamistra for several months and fled as soon as fighting became imminent leaving the key castle of the Cilician Plain in Tancred's hands." Laurent has convincingly shown that it is both unlikely that the early career of Aspietes can be identified as that of Oshin and that we really do not know enough of the latter to speak with any certainty.12 Therefore, it seems more probable that the holders of Lampron had not gained the stature which Aspietes' command implies, but were still petty barons, happy to rely on the strength of their castle, and unlikely candidates for the control of all "
That doesn't back the claim the House was founded in 1072. Doug Weller talk 18:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)