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This seems a little long, can we cut it down to one paragraph, and put the details in the other sections?
On this latest addition:
Is Card really throwing in the towel and becoming a professor? Eww! Why in the world would he want to do that? Do we have a source for this? — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:33, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there a better picture than one with his eyes closed that we can use? Epachamo 20:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
His picture should be updated because his eyes are closed.
The current text implies he started the column (or it started being carried in the GSO paper?) after 9/11/2001. That's incorrect -- I read Uncle Orson as early as 1997, and I think it existed on the AOL version of Hatrack a year or more before that. -- Richard Berg 06:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Edit Summary: Keep Consensus says that OSC's opinions are notable and interesting. -- Docmgmt 17:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I vote for removing the entire section on grounds of violating WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I mean, why is this section even here? a)It really doesn't seem to be very encyclopaedic. I mean, how many other people's entries get a Personal Views section?!?! b) it really seems like a lot of implicit bias in which personal views to cover... I mean, what about his views on the Mets? On Opera? On the Internet? I'm sure he's covered those topics on his columns, but it wouldn't make sense to list ALL his Personal Views... c) I looked in the history section, and basically noticed that on this date, someone added section headers to an essay-like article, and one of the section headers was "Controversial Views" Which, once again has a NPOV type conflict. Somewhere along the way, it became "Personal Views" but it still doesn't mean it belongs in wikipedia. d) A lot of the sub-sections seem to be Original Research. People have been going around, making claims and doing Original Research to support them, when really, Wikipedia should just be referencing other people's research. Overall, the whole section becomes a stomping ground for personal "Point of View" and for generating Original Research. -- Docmgmt 22:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Personally, knowing OSC's views on things have added a new dimension to his works. i.e., I find that reading his books are more fulfilling with somewhat of a background into his bias. I appreciate the content on this page and don't feel like OSC would disapprove. Epachamo 21:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The politics section keeps getting "toned down", for no reason that's at all clear to me. If anyone has a source for OSC repudiating his previous views (lock up gay people -- but only a few to keep 'em in line; scoff openly at the idea of acation against global warming -- who know, it could be a good thing), and advocating the narrower position where he's only opposed to gay marriage, and to a given climate change treaty, then please source it. Alai 04:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1.) He hasn't said we should lock up gay people; rather he says the laws against homosexuality should remain on the books. Source it, but if it's the same World Watch article that always gets cited for this, quote the wording that says he wants to lock them up.
2.) He has advocated serious research into alternative energy sources and advocates the reduction of fossil fuel use. Just because he doesn't buy into a particular justification for those policies doesn't mean he is against policies that will have an effect.
Above unsigned comment was by User:209.101.140.144
I hardly need to "source" talk page comments: that phrasing was not being proposed as a draft insertion into the article. But if a person supports even selective enforcement of laws with penalty of imprisonment, can you please explain how this is not advocating locking up (at least some) people for homosexual behaviour? On GW: he's explicitly said that he does not advocate these things for "environmentalist" reasons, but for geopolitical ones. If one were to sum this up by saying "he is for policies X and Y that will offset GW" one would mislead greatly. Furthermore, the two motivations will not in general lead to precisely the same policies (or advocacy thereof).
At any rate, at least these issues haven't simply disappeared from the article, as they were wont to do in the past. Indeed, as he's being quoted at length in his own words, it obviates the need to "sum up" his views briefly, as was being attempted previously. Perhaps too briefly. Alai 03:45, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there must be an addition to the main page describing themes in his work/where Card is coming from. The following themes/influences in Card's fiction are too glaring to ignore and still do a thorough and honest job of describing him and his work:
e.g.,
Even though his body had had no particular joy from Shedemei’s (and certainly hers had finally become exhausted from the effort to please his), yet there was joy in it on another level. Because the gift had been given. Sheer friction and stimulation of nerves had won in the end, sparking the reflex that deposited a million hopeful half-humans-to-be into the matrix that would keep them alive for the day or two of their race toward the other half, the all-mother, the Infinite Egg. What did they care whether Zdorab had lusted after Shedemei or merely acted out of duty while desperately trying to fantasize another lover of a reproductively irrelevant sex? Their life was lived on another plane…Who is to say that mine is not the better fatherhood, because I acted out of pure love, and not of some inborn instinct that captured me. Indeed, I acted against my instinct. There’s something in that. A hero of copulation, a real cocksman, if the others only knew (The Ships of Earth 225)
Also several male characters are portrayed as being incredibly beautiful, e.g.
" Inside the smithy Alvin lay curled on the ground, facing toward the forge, away from her. He was breathing heavily, raggedly. Asleep? No. He was naked; it took a moment to realize that his clothing must have burned off him in the forge…His skin was shockingly pale and smooth. Earlier today he had been callused, with here and there a scar from some spark or searing burn, the normal accidents of life beside a fire. Now, though, his skin was as unmarked as a baby’s, and she could not help herself; she stepped into the smithy, knelt beside him, and gently brushed her hand along his back, from his shoulder down to the narrow place above the hip. His skin was so soft it made her own hands feel coarse to her, as if she marred him just by touching him (Prentice Alvin, 1989: 306)"
And we might include something about Card's views on homosexuality here, too.
"Perhaps that is why the Stranger and the Other are so important in all my writings (though never at first by plan), even as my stories also affirm the importance of the Member and the Familiar…Am I not, with my own inner contradictions between Inside and Outside, Member and Stranger, a model of the people who live in this age? "
So I suggest a combined "Themes/Influences" section that would mention those major literary themes and why he might keep returning to them.
I don't know why that one line in this post keeps showing up in a grey box with dashes aroud it and I can't fix it because I'm not a computer guy.
Author states that "Card is equally active as a political writer and speaker", but clearly that has far from equal prominence here. In particular, would anyone object to for starters, some examination of his self-characterisation as a Democrat (seemingly in essence solely on Civil Rights grounds, which surely even most GOPers would not accept to be distinguishing on policy grounds), his stance on gay rights, and global warming? Alai 04:03 6 Dec 2004
"Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the law. [...] So it is a flat lie to say that homosexuals are deprived of any civil right pertaining to marriage. To get those civil rights, all homosexuals have to do is find someone of the opposite sex willing to join them in marriage." (writing in the Rhinoceros Times)"
Wish I hadn't bought any of his books now, bigot.
21:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
All right, I've been watching this page for a while now. So far, people have added two recent inflammatory quotes, added Card to a category of "public homophobes", and insulted him personally in the discussion thread above. I am getting the impression that much of this is motivated, not by scholarly interest, but by political agendas. Card is not yet notable on a large scale for his politics, but this encyclopedia is being used, among other means, to "get the word out" about Card's opinions, and encourage people not to buy his books. His official website gets hit once every couple of weeks by a new person saying, "I used to buy Card's books, but then someone told me he was a bigot, so I stopped, and so should YOU!" or something along those lines. These recent additions to the article are just part of the campaign. I personally think that Wikipedia should not be used as a political tool, or as a means of attacking a public figure, however subtly. — Rafe
I find the quotes in the article oddly placed. However I have noticed the Isaac Asimov article also has a list of quotes on the page, so perhaps its a wikipedia custom. The quotes which represent Card's actual views have more meaning to me than the quotes of Card's charachters. I think the Charachter quotes should go to the article of the book from which the quote came from since that's where they are in context. Any of Card's own quotes should stay on the Orson Scott Card Article however I would prefer it if it were in a relevant section of the article instead of lumping them all together. SDG 18:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He's opposed to gay marriage in particular, not gay rights in general. --Rafe's edit summary.
He's advocated that homosexual acts "remain" criminalised, described it as arising from paedophilia, and has essentially labelled anyone subscribing to any notion of gay rights as a hypocrite. (Or at least, all gay advocates of such, on the apparent grounds of attempting to rationalise and justify their "sin"; where this leaves heterosexual believers in gay rights I'm less clear on, but I'd be surprised if it were substantially any more charitable.)
At any rate, this is all by way of saying, reverting this edit. Alai 06:37, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the quote about regarding homosexuality as a "pathological condition" and replaced it with saying he's against gay marriage. The citation for the quote was an article by a different author which appeared on Card's site (but the author's name appears at the bottom of the page while Card's appears at the top under the banner, so I can understand the confusion)--Joe Whitney
I apologize for making the "same sex marriage" change before reading the discussion. I have changed it back. However, do think "same sex marriage" would be be a more accurate description of what he opposes. I actually think his best thougts on the issue are in his essay The Marriage Of True Minds. While his essays have unarguably been clear that he feels homosexuality is significantly different from traditional heterosexuality as to not equate the two, that does not suggest he would be opposed to their receiving, say, health care benifits because of a partner's employment.
The hypocrites essay was targeted specifically at the Mormon audience. Traditonal families and traditional marriage are so core to the church that to change that would be radically changing what the church was. You have to understand--the ultimate "goal" of a Mormon, the Mormon definition of heaven, is to live with God forever as a family, continuing to have children and be together forever. The tradional, nuclear family, is therefore such a core element of Mormonism that, as Card states in his essay, it's impossible to reconcile it with homosexuality. Hence the term, "hypocrites."
I think the key quote is this: "The only people I have contempt for are those who try to remain inside Mormonism while denying the validity of guidance from the prophets, and I oppose them, not because they live as homosexuals, but because of the hypocrisy of claiming to be Mormon while denying the only reason for the Mormon community to exist. If they prevailed, it would destroy our community. Homosexuals themselves pose no such threat, provided that those who are Mormon admit that a homosexual act is a sin as long as the prophet declares it to be so, while those who do not accept the prophet's authority refrain from pretending to be Mormon."
Alai, are you still opposed to this change? Anyone else?
The section on gay rights seems so out of place when compared with the other sections on political views. It is three times longer and smacks of people who disagree with him wanting as many damning quotes in as possible. It seems like making it with more of a NPOV would be bringing it in line with the other sections like "Morality" and "Environment & science" which are much shorter and link to long quotes rather than quoting them in full.
Why not just have a heading for each subject that is now under other - myclob
I've read the first 3 of the Ender's series, the first two of the Alvin series, and The Abyss, which I should ignore since it's a novelization of someone else's screenplay. Anyway, I'm detecting the following themes and I'd appreciate it if someone more versed in his work than I could comment. Maybe this is worth adding to the article, maybe not:
Thanks, Koyaanis Qatsi
What's the current means of disambiguating novels? (novel)? (book)? Currently _Saints_ and _Xenocide_ both need disambiguation. Koyaanis Qatsi
Is there any hidden reason to put "Shadow of Ender series" as a separate list, and far away from its other storyline, the "ender series"? I believe they're the same, and at least should follow each other if someone insist the separation. -- grin 17:18, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I notice there is no mention of the Ender's Game Movie on the front page. Also there is a computer game called Alvin's World in production. I was thinking about adding them both, but wonder if there is a good reason not to. From what I understand Card has a lot to do with both of them. SDG
The long set of quotes shoud go into Wikiquotes, with only a couple remaining here. - Willmcw 22:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
Really. While Card's political opinions might tick a few people off, the whole "pedophile" bit that keeps getting added to the text here is astoundingly immature.
I deleted three paragraphs on Mr. Card's opinions that are not supported by cites - and that are substantially at odds with the evidence. They were also strongly critical, and smacked of exaggeration for the sake of vilifying Mr. Card. - Reaverdrop 23:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this the same as "Other" Or would the columns fit better under personal views?
Adding a link as suggested by Delldot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:151.205.180.171 151.205.180.171 18:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I just deleted a comment about Geoffrey Card asking people not to publicize his relationship to his father while at BYU. I did this because I AM Geoffrey Card, and I found it to be seriously misleading. I have asked people, on occasion, not to make a big deal out of my "famous" connection, just because I like to be judged for my own merits, and in some circles, being the kid of a famous author grants me a sort of undeserved celebrity that makes me a little distrustful of people's motives :)
But in the context of this article, which among other things, addresses a lot of the political controversy surrounding Card, this comment makes it sound as though I were trying to distance myself from him, or as though we had had some kind of falling out. Which couldn't be FURTHER from the case. He and I just spent the holidays together, we still collaborate on occasion, and while I remain a bit touchy in my social life about wanting to be known within my own social circles as an individual, I think that such feelings are private, and are not appropriate material for an encyclopedia article.
I realize that Wikipedia has a policy against using the site for self-promotion, which is one reason I haven't done silly things like spinning off a stub about myself :) But I'm hoping that REMOVING an inaccurate comment about myself without replacing it with anything new counts as the opposite of self-promotion (self DE-motion?) and will be allowed to stand.
I'm also kind of curious who added that original comment, and what their source was. Not because I'm mad or anything ... I just haven't seen many of my old college friends in a while, and I'm assuming it was one of them :)
Card sort of sounds like a traditional fascist, and hear me out on this. Not Nazi-genocidal fascist but Mussolini-Franco-Suharto fascist: distrustful of free markets and individual freedom, rationalism and secularism (his views on evolution and ID), anti-homosexual (or their agenda, if you prefer), but he masks it under the cover of "anti-racism", so maybe he's more of a Fidel Castro or Stalin-type in some regards: proclamations of equality for all but de facto unwilling to tolerate radically diverging opinion. I'm not saying these things to be an ass but just to try to pinpoint his ideological leanings. Fascism is a bad word in today's political discourse but IMO it's just a different variant of totalitarianism and collectivism. I'm NOT anti-Card, I like his books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.98.50 ( talk • contribs)
Orwell opined as long ago as 1946 that "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’", as it had already been distorted and co-opted by so many partisans as to lose all precision in meaning. [1] I don't think your specific criticisms of Card gain any persuasiveness by trying to lump them under such a dead label. - Reaverdrop 08:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Atlantis By Orson Scott Card http://www.hatrack.com/osc/stories/atlantis.shtml
I read most of his reviews on movies (e.g. [2] [3] [4] [5]). However, it seems that (from my POV) he doesn't know what is a good or bad movie. Instead, he embarrasses himself sometimes. He uses his standards (family, morality, etc.) to lash against critically successful good movies like Pulp Fiction, American Beauty, Citizen Kane, Pleasantville, all Woody Allen movies after the movie Love and Death, etc.; while he adores lame commericial hits like Hitch (after 3rd time), Charlie's Angels and its sequel, Mission: Impossible II, You've Got Mail (although it has good moments like MI2), etc. Speaking of lame, he adored ones that moderately performed at the box office and/or were more critically praised like Uptown Girls, The Runaway Jury (which wasn't bad, but...), The Upside of Anger, etc.
Also, he thought that either King Kong or The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe should be nominated for Oscar's Best Picture of 2005. Moreover, he thought that Chicago deserved to win Best Picture of 2002.
But the things I like about his views were on The Matrix series (although sometimes he said things merely right on sequels, NOT wrong), The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, Star Wars series (although his examples were pure bull sometimes, and I liked ROTJ), etc. Also, he pointed out most movies listed on "Movies that made a lot of money that were horrible" list.
However, I more likely agree on users from "Hatrack Forum" [6] than I ever had before. But I'll say that he has his fans (loyal or not) no matter what circumstances, especially by his books. 69.227.173.21 11:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry guys, but "with permission" doesn't fly when a free license image already exists. See WP:FAIR:
The picutre needs to be licensed under a free one like GFDL or CC or something...it can't just be for non-commerical uses. Given that Card acutally said something about it on the forums, I'm sure it would be no big deal to try to get it under a freer license. Hbdragon88 08:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Why was the "People from California" changed to "California writer"? He is from California, but doesn't live there now and hasn't for years and years. I wouldn't call him a "California writer" simply because he was born there. Anyone else? — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Im adding Treason to the other works and I am moving Empire from other to the shadow series sense it is no longer up coming...
and as side note I think other post ender works is a pretty lame heading it infers the ender saga is the only book of importance...
I'm confused about what you are doing Self Study Buddy. Empire is not part of the Shadow series, and it is still forthcoming. I don't think we need Pre-Enders Game/ Post Enders game works. Instead I'd prefer to see all of the sagas grouped together, than below show his other works. SDG 23:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you are correct that empire is still forth coming (nov. 28 06) and I was miss informed on the shadow series bit... I must say I feel very foolish now. SelfStudyBuddy
after review of article and discussion I believe they should be both be put under a clean up tag. which I will now do if anyone has any strong objections please state them
I agree it looks alot better now. SelfStudyBuddy
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This seems a little long, can we cut it down to one paragraph, and put the details in the other sections?
On this latest addition:
Is Card really throwing in the towel and becoming a professor? Eww! Why in the world would he want to do that? Do we have a source for this? — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:33, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Is there a better picture than one with his eyes closed that we can use? Epachamo 20:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
His picture should be updated because his eyes are closed.
The current text implies he started the column (or it started being carried in the GSO paper?) after 9/11/2001. That's incorrect -- I read Uncle Orson as early as 1997, and I think it existed on the AOL version of Hatrack a year or more before that. -- Richard Berg 06:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Edit Summary: Keep Consensus says that OSC's opinions are notable and interesting. -- Docmgmt 17:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I vote for removing the entire section on grounds of violating WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I mean, why is this section even here? a)It really doesn't seem to be very encyclopaedic. I mean, how many other people's entries get a Personal Views section?!?! b) it really seems like a lot of implicit bias in which personal views to cover... I mean, what about his views on the Mets? On Opera? On the Internet? I'm sure he's covered those topics on his columns, but it wouldn't make sense to list ALL his Personal Views... c) I looked in the history section, and basically noticed that on this date, someone added section headers to an essay-like article, and one of the section headers was "Controversial Views" Which, once again has a NPOV type conflict. Somewhere along the way, it became "Personal Views" but it still doesn't mean it belongs in wikipedia. d) A lot of the sub-sections seem to be Original Research. People have been going around, making claims and doing Original Research to support them, when really, Wikipedia should just be referencing other people's research. Overall, the whole section becomes a stomping ground for personal "Point of View" and for generating Original Research. -- Docmgmt 22:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Personally, knowing OSC's views on things have added a new dimension to his works. i.e., I find that reading his books are more fulfilling with somewhat of a background into his bias. I appreciate the content on this page and don't feel like OSC would disapprove. Epachamo 21:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The politics section keeps getting "toned down", for no reason that's at all clear to me. If anyone has a source for OSC repudiating his previous views (lock up gay people -- but only a few to keep 'em in line; scoff openly at the idea of acation against global warming -- who know, it could be a good thing), and advocating the narrower position where he's only opposed to gay marriage, and to a given climate change treaty, then please source it. Alai 04:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1.) He hasn't said we should lock up gay people; rather he says the laws against homosexuality should remain on the books. Source it, but if it's the same World Watch article that always gets cited for this, quote the wording that says he wants to lock them up.
2.) He has advocated serious research into alternative energy sources and advocates the reduction of fossil fuel use. Just because he doesn't buy into a particular justification for those policies doesn't mean he is against policies that will have an effect.
Above unsigned comment was by User:209.101.140.144
I hardly need to "source" talk page comments: that phrasing was not being proposed as a draft insertion into the article. But if a person supports even selective enforcement of laws with penalty of imprisonment, can you please explain how this is not advocating locking up (at least some) people for homosexual behaviour? On GW: he's explicitly said that he does not advocate these things for "environmentalist" reasons, but for geopolitical ones. If one were to sum this up by saying "he is for policies X and Y that will offset GW" one would mislead greatly. Furthermore, the two motivations will not in general lead to precisely the same policies (or advocacy thereof).
At any rate, at least these issues haven't simply disappeared from the article, as they were wont to do in the past. Indeed, as he's being quoted at length in his own words, it obviates the need to "sum up" his views briefly, as was being attempted previously. Perhaps too briefly. Alai 03:45, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there must be an addition to the main page describing themes in his work/where Card is coming from. The following themes/influences in Card's fiction are too glaring to ignore and still do a thorough and honest job of describing him and his work:
e.g.,
Even though his body had had no particular joy from Shedemei’s (and certainly hers had finally become exhausted from the effort to please his), yet there was joy in it on another level. Because the gift had been given. Sheer friction and stimulation of nerves had won in the end, sparking the reflex that deposited a million hopeful half-humans-to-be into the matrix that would keep them alive for the day or two of their race toward the other half, the all-mother, the Infinite Egg. What did they care whether Zdorab had lusted after Shedemei or merely acted out of duty while desperately trying to fantasize another lover of a reproductively irrelevant sex? Their life was lived on another plane…Who is to say that mine is not the better fatherhood, because I acted out of pure love, and not of some inborn instinct that captured me. Indeed, I acted against my instinct. There’s something in that. A hero of copulation, a real cocksman, if the others only knew (The Ships of Earth 225)
Also several male characters are portrayed as being incredibly beautiful, e.g.
" Inside the smithy Alvin lay curled on the ground, facing toward the forge, away from her. He was breathing heavily, raggedly. Asleep? No. He was naked; it took a moment to realize that his clothing must have burned off him in the forge…His skin was shockingly pale and smooth. Earlier today he had been callused, with here and there a scar from some spark or searing burn, the normal accidents of life beside a fire. Now, though, his skin was as unmarked as a baby’s, and she could not help herself; she stepped into the smithy, knelt beside him, and gently brushed her hand along his back, from his shoulder down to the narrow place above the hip. His skin was so soft it made her own hands feel coarse to her, as if she marred him just by touching him (Prentice Alvin, 1989: 306)"
And we might include something about Card's views on homosexuality here, too.
"Perhaps that is why the Stranger and the Other are so important in all my writings (though never at first by plan), even as my stories also affirm the importance of the Member and the Familiar…Am I not, with my own inner contradictions between Inside and Outside, Member and Stranger, a model of the people who live in this age? "
So I suggest a combined "Themes/Influences" section that would mention those major literary themes and why he might keep returning to them.
I don't know why that one line in this post keeps showing up in a grey box with dashes aroud it and I can't fix it because I'm not a computer guy.
Author states that "Card is equally active as a political writer and speaker", but clearly that has far from equal prominence here. In particular, would anyone object to for starters, some examination of his self-characterisation as a Democrat (seemingly in essence solely on Civil Rights grounds, which surely even most GOPers would not accept to be distinguishing on policy grounds), his stance on gay rights, and global warming? Alai 04:03 6 Dec 2004
"Any homosexual man who can persuade a woman to take him as her husband can avail himself of all the rights of husbandhood under the law. [...] So it is a flat lie to say that homosexuals are deprived of any civil right pertaining to marriage. To get those civil rights, all homosexuals have to do is find someone of the opposite sex willing to join them in marriage." (writing in the Rhinoceros Times)"
Wish I hadn't bought any of his books now, bigot.
21:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
All right, I've been watching this page for a while now. So far, people have added two recent inflammatory quotes, added Card to a category of "public homophobes", and insulted him personally in the discussion thread above. I am getting the impression that much of this is motivated, not by scholarly interest, but by political agendas. Card is not yet notable on a large scale for his politics, but this encyclopedia is being used, among other means, to "get the word out" about Card's opinions, and encourage people not to buy his books. His official website gets hit once every couple of weeks by a new person saying, "I used to buy Card's books, but then someone told me he was a bigot, so I stopped, and so should YOU!" or something along those lines. These recent additions to the article are just part of the campaign. I personally think that Wikipedia should not be used as a political tool, or as a means of attacking a public figure, however subtly. — Rafe
I find the quotes in the article oddly placed. However I have noticed the Isaac Asimov article also has a list of quotes on the page, so perhaps its a wikipedia custom. The quotes which represent Card's actual views have more meaning to me than the quotes of Card's charachters. I think the Charachter quotes should go to the article of the book from which the quote came from since that's where they are in context. Any of Card's own quotes should stay on the Orson Scott Card Article however I would prefer it if it were in a relevant section of the article instead of lumping them all together. SDG 18:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
He's opposed to gay marriage in particular, not gay rights in general. --Rafe's edit summary.
He's advocated that homosexual acts "remain" criminalised, described it as arising from paedophilia, and has essentially labelled anyone subscribing to any notion of gay rights as a hypocrite. (Or at least, all gay advocates of such, on the apparent grounds of attempting to rationalise and justify their "sin"; where this leaves heterosexual believers in gay rights I'm less clear on, but I'd be surprised if it were substantially any more charitable.)
At any rate, this is all by way of saying, reverting this edit. Alai 06:37, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the quote about regarding homosexuality as a "pathological condition" and replaced it with saying he's against gay marriage. The citation for the quote was an article by a different author which appeared on Card's site (but the author's name appears at the bottom of the page while Card's appears at the top under the banner, so I can understand the confusion)--Joe Whitney
I apologize for making the "same sex marriage" change before reading the discussion. I have changed it back. However, do think "same sex marriage" would be be a more accurate description of what he opposes. I actually think his best thougts on the issue are in his essay The Marriage Of True Minds. While his essays have unarguably been clear that he feels homosexuality is significantly different from traditional heterosexuality as to not equate the two, that does not suggest he would be opposed to their receiving, say, health care benifits because of a partner's employment.
The hypocrites essay was targeted specifically at the Mormon audience. Traditonal families and traditional marriage are so core to the church that to change that would be radically changing what the church was. You have to understand--the ultimate "goal" of a Mormon, the Mormon definition of heaven, is to live with God forever as a family, continuing to have children and be together forever. The tradional, nuclear family, is therefore such a core element of Mormonism that, as Card states in his essay, it's impossible to reconcile it with homosexuality. Hence the term, "hypocrites."
I think the key quote is this: "The only people I have contempt for are those who try to remain inside Mormonism while denying the validity of guidance from the prophets, and I oppose them, not because they live as homosexuals, but because of the hypocrisy of claiming to be Mormon while denying the only reason for the Mormon community to exist. If they prevailed, it would destroy our community. Homosexuals themselves pose no such threat, provided that those who are Mormon admit that a homosexual act is a sin as long as the prophet declares it to be so, while those who do not accept the prophet's authority refrain from pretending to be Mormon."
Alai, are you still opposed to this change? Anyone else?
The section on gay rights seems so out of place when compared with the other sections on political views. It is three times longer and smacks of people who disagree with him wanting as many damning quotes in as possible. It seems like making it with more of a NPOV would be bringing it in line with the other sections like "Morality" and "Environment & science" which are much shorter and link to long quotes rather than quoting them in full.
Why not just have a heading for each subject that is now under other - myclob
I've read the first 3 of the Ender's series, the first two of the Alvin series, and The Abyss, which I should ignore since it's a novelization of someone else's screenplay. Anyway, I'm detecting the following themes and I'd appreciate it if someone more versed in his work than I could comment. Maybe this is worth adding to the article, maybe not:
Thanks, Koyaanis Qatsi
What's the current means of disambiguating novels? (novel)? (book)? Currently _Saints_ and _Xenocide_ both need disambiguation. Koyaanis Qatsi
Is there any hidden reason to put "Shadow of Ender series" as a separate list, and far away from its other storyline, the "ender series"? I believe they're the same, and at least should follow each other if someone insist the separation. -- grin 17:18, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I notice there is no mention of the Ender's Game Movie on the front page. Also there is a computer game called Alvin's World in production. I was thinking about adding them both, but wonder if there is a good reason not to. From what I understand Card has a lot to do with both of them. SDG
The long set of quotes shoud go into Wikiquotes, with only a couple remaining here. - Willmcw 22:31, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
Really. While Card's political opinions might tick a few people off, the whole "pedophile" bit that keeps getting added to the text here is astoundingly immature.
I deleted three paragraphs on Mr. Card's opinions that are not supported by cites - and that are substantially at odds with the evidence. They were also strongly critical, and smacked of exaggeration for the sake of vilifying Mr. Card. - Reaverdrop 23:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this the same as "Other" Or would the columns fit better under personal views?
Adding a link as suggested by Delldot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:151.205.180.171 151.205.180.171 18:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I just deleted a comment about Geoffrey Card asking people not to publicize his relationship to his father while at BYU. I did this because I AM Geoffrey Card, and I found it to be seriously misleading. I have asked people, on occasion, not to make a big deal out of my "famous" connection, just because I like to be judged for my own merits, and in some circles, being the kid of a famous author grants me a sort of undeserved celebrity that makes me a little distrustful of people's motives :)
But in the context of this article, which among other things, addresses a lot of the political controversy surrounding Card, this comment makes it sound as though I were trying to distance myself from him, or as though we had had some kind of falling out. Which couldn't be FURTHER from the case. He and I just spent the holidays together, we still collaborate on occasion, and while I remain a bit touchy in my social life about wanting to be known within my own social circles as an individual, I think that such feelings are private, and are not appropriate material for an encyclopedia article.
I realize that Wikipedia has a policy against using the site for self-promotion, which is one reason I haven't done silly things like spinning off a stub about myself :) But I'm hoping that REMOVING an inaccurate comment about myself without replacing it with anything new counts as the opposite of self-promotion (self DE-motion?) and will be allowed to stand.
I'm also kind of curious who added that original comment, and what their source was. Not because I'm mad or anything ... I just haven't seen many of my old college friends in a while, and I'm assuming it was one of them :)
Card sort of sounds like a traditional fascist, and hear me out on this. Not Nazi-genocidal fascist but Mussolini-Franco-Suharto fascist: distrustful of free markets and individual freedom, rationalism and secularism (his views on evolution and ID), anti-homosexual (or their agenda, if you prefer), but he masks it under the cover of "anti-racism", so maybe he's more of a Fidel Castro or Stalin-type in some regards: proclamations of equality for all but de facto unwilling to tolerate radically diverging opinion. I'm not saying these things to be an ass but just to try to pinpoint his ideological leanings. Fascism is a bad word in today's political discourse but IMO it's just a different variant of totalitarianism and collectivism. I'm NOT anti-Card, I like his books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.98.50 ( talk • contribs)
Orwell opined as long ago as 1946 that "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’", as it had already been distorted and co-opted by so many partisans as to lose all precision in meaning. [1] I don't think your specific criticisms of Card gain any persuasiveness by trying to lump them under such a dead label. - Reaverdrop 08:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Atlantis By Orson Scott Card http://www.hatrack.com/osc/stories/atlantis.shtml
I read most of his reviews on movies (e.g. [2] [3] [4] [5]). However, it seems that (from my POV) he doesn't know what is a good or bad movie. Instead, he embarrasses himself sometimes. He uses his standards (family, morality, etc.) to lash against critically successful good movies like Pulp Fiction, American Beauty, Citizen Kane, Pleasantville, all Woody Allen movies after the movie Love and Death, etc.; while he adores lame commericial hits like Hitch (after 3rd time), Charlie's Angels and its sequel, Mission: Impossible II, You've Got Mail (although it has good moments like MI2), etc. Speaking of lame, he adored ones that moderately performed at the box office and/or were more critically praised like Uptown Girls, The Runaway Jury (which wasn't bad, but...), The Upside of Anger, etc.
Also, he thought that either King Kong or The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe should be nominated for Oscar's Best Picture of 2005. Moreover, he thought that Chicago deserved to win Best Picture of 2002.
But the things I like about his views were on The Matrix series (although sometimes he said things merely right on sequels, NOT wrong), The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, Star Wars series (although his examples were pure bull sometimes, and I liked ROTJ), etc. Also, he pointed out most movies listed on "Movies that made a lot of money that were horrible" list.
However, I more likely agree on users from "Hatrack Forum" [6] than I ever had before. But I'll say that he has his fans (loyal or not) no matter what circumstances, especially by his books. 69.227.173.21 11:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry guys, but "with permission" doesn't fly when a free license image already exists. See WP:FAIR:
The picutre needs to be licensed under a free one like GFDL or CC or something...it can't just be for non-commerical uses. Given that Card acutally said something about it on the forums, I'm sure it would be no big deal to try to get it under a freer license. Hbdragon88 08:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Why was the "People from California" changed to "California writer"? He is from California, but doesn't live there now and hasn't for years and years. I wouldn't call him a "California writer" simply because he was born there. Anyone else? — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Im adding Treason to the other works and I am moving Empire from other to the shadow series sense it is no longer up coming...
and as side note I think other post ender works is a pretty lame heading it infers the ender saga is the only book of importance...
I'm confused about what you are doing Self Study Buddy. Empire is not part of the Shadow series, and it is still forthcoming. I don't think we need Pre-Enders Game/ Post Enders game works. Instead I'd prefer to see all of the sagas grouped together, than below show his other works. SDG 23:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you are correct that empire is still forth coming (nov. 28 06) and I was miss informed on the shadow series bit... I must say I feel very foolish now. SelfStudyBuddy
after review of article and discussion I believe they should be both be put under a clean up tag. which I will now do if anyone has any strong objections please state them
I agree it looks alot better now. SelfStudyBuddy