Origen has been listed as one of the
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please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
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A fact from Origen appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 March 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
The inlne Citation to the Catholic Encyclopaedia (1913) had a text comment after it. I have commented out:
I did this because the citation is cited inline a multiple locations and it is not clear to which of the text in those locations this comment is supposed to refer.
The original comment was added by user:Student7 in Revision as of 12:25, 27 July 2008 and that editor is probably the best to review my edit, because the original text was:
Eusebius reported that Origen, following Matthew 19:12 literally, castrated himself. [1] [2] Scholars within the past century have questioned this, surmising that this may have been a rumor circulated by his detractors. [3] [4] The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this. [5]
NB the volume 11 of the CE that Wikisource holds was published in 1911 not 1903.
-- PBS ( talk) 12:33, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Good morning @ Katolophyromai:, I am writing this topic about Your undid of 12 January 2019 (oldid 878080417).
Regarding the new guidelines "We only need to mention something if it happened. If it did not happen, we can just not mention it. ", we can generally agree about that. But a lacking canonization is like an eception to this general rule, since it explains the official concerning of the Church, that is, even if tolerated, no Christian Church believes the Origen's doctrine is part of the Christian orthodoxy and salvation.
In a celebrative style, the article incipit ends with the following words: "Origen is a Church Father[13][14][15][16] and is widely regarded as one of the most important Christian theologians of all time. His teachings were especially influential in the east, with Athanasius of Alexandria and the three Cappadocian Fathers being among his most devoted followers."
This kind of emphatic style probably induces someone to compare Origen with St Augustin of Hippo or some other Doctor of the Church. And it is totally wrong.
Hence, the concerning about his lacking canonization seems to be relevant and making the article more NPOV. This can be done without repeating the concern of his posthomous condemnation, at least since it is well known when he and his doctrine has been claimed as heretic. Micheledisaveriosp ( talk) 13:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)@ 50.204.245.34: You recently added this passage to the last paragraph of the lead, along with a great deal of other information which was both uncited and unsupported by the information given in the body of the article:
Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils due to his condemnation by five of these bodies according to the Roman Catholic reckoning and three according the the Eastern Orthodox enumeration.
I reverted this edit and you reverted my edit, suggesting Norman P. Tanner's Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils: Nicaea I to Lateran V to me in your edit summary, which you implied supports these claims you added to the article about Origen being a "Heresiarch." I do not, however, have access to that book and it is not available online, so I have no means of confirming whether it really says what you claim it says about Origen being regarded as a "Heresiarch." I will agree that, certainly, some people in ancient times regarded him as a Heresiarch and there are probably some people who still regard him as one today. Nonetheless, the statement that "Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" is clearly no longer true, if it was ever.
Even if Origen was condemned by subsequent councils after the Second Council of Constantinople (whose famous alleged condemnation of Origen, as I mention, is debated) and all the books on him somehow failed to mention this (or I somehow missed all the places where they do mention it, which is admittedly possible), it is still not accurate to say that he is "considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils." I have yet to find a single scholarly source written in the modern era that calls him a "Heresiarch." Indeed, all the scholarly sources I have found written by orthodox Christian writers, both Protestant and Catholic, are favorable towards Origen, stating that later attacks on Origen's orthodoxy were either condemnations of what people influenced by Origen had claimed rather than what Origen himself had actually taught, or anachronistic judgments imposing the standards of orthodoxy of later eras onto Origen, who lived centuries prior in a very different theological environment, in which speculation was more widely tolerated.
Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that none other than Pope Benedict XVI included a sermon on Origen entitled "Origen of Alexandria: Life and Work" as part of his series of sermons Church Fathers: From Clement of Rome to Augustine delivered in 2007 in which he praises Origen as "a figure crucial to the whole development of Christian thought," "a true 'maestro,'" and "not only a brilliant theologian but also an exemplary witness of the doctrine he passed on." He concludes the sermon by urging his audience, "welcome into your hearts the teaching of this great master of the faith." I take this to mean that the Pope Emeritus himself is anathema, then? Perhaps we could say that some people regard him as a heretic, but we can certainly not say that all "adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" regard him as such. Furthermore, even if all the information you added turns out to be accurate and supported by reliable, scholarly sources, it is way too much information on the subject for the lead, which is already quite long as it is. – Katolophyromai ( talk) 23:01, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
It's fairly standard to give a phonetic "spelling" of the names of people on their page. For example, /juːˈsiːbiəs/; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Eusebios. And these are contemporary pronunciations, not the way their peers knew them.
I never know whether to say 'rig' as in 'ridge' or as in plain 'rig', as in origin or Oregon.
I hate "Joe-see-fss" . . . but that's what everyone seems to call him, at least in the English-speaking world. What do Israeli and, say, Romance-language scholars call him, I wonder? Nick Barnett ( talk) 15:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The following passage from the "Views" section, under "Cosmology and Eschatology," contains what strongly seems to me an unsubstantiated claim:
The source that is expressly listed for the second sentence, which is the one I take issue with, can be found here.
St. Jerome actually speaks about translation (and refutes accusations of mistranslation against him in another case)
here. I really do not think we should be giving much credence to Dr. Chadwick (an evangelical Anglican, according to
Wikipedia -- Origen is canonized in the Anglican communion) in regard to Jerome's moral aptitude. I think St. Jerome himself would answer more accurately in that regard: his letter indicates that any mistranslations are not willful and his translations, per classical norms, sought to render sense for sense.
Ornithopolis (
talk) 03:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Origen has been listed as one of the
Philosophy and religion good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: February 20, 2018. ( Reviewed version). |
This
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Origen appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 March 2018 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
The inlne Citation to the Catholic Encyclopaedia (1913) had a text comment after it. I have commented out:
I did this because the citation is cited inline a multiple locations and it is not clear to which of the text in those locations this comment is supposed to refer.
The original comment was added by user:Student7 in Revision as of 12:25, 27 July 2008 and that editor is probably the best to review my edit, because the original text was:
Eusebius reported that Origen, following Matthew 19:12 literally, castrated himself. [1] [2] Scholars within the past century have questioned this, surmising that this may have been a rumor circulated by his detractors. [3] [4] The 1903 Catholic Encyclopedia does not report this. [5]
NB the volume 11 of the CE that Wikisource holds was published in 1911 not 1903.
-- PBS ( talk) 12:33, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Good morning @ Katolophyromai:, I am writing this topic about Your undid of 12 January 2019 (oldid 878080417).
Regarding the new guidelines "We only need to mention something if it happened. If it did not happen, we can just not mention it. ", we can generally agree about that. But a lacking canonization is like an eception to this general rule, since it explains the official concerning of the Church, that is, even if tolerated, no Christian Church believes the Origen's doctrine is part of the Christian orthodoxy and salvation.
In a celebrative style, the article incipit ends with the following words: "Origen is a Church Father[13][14][15][16] and is widely regarded as one of the most important Christian theologians of all time. His teachings were especially influential in the east, with Athanasius of Alexandria and the three Cappadocian Fathers being among his most devoted followers."
This kind of emphatic style probably induces someone to compare Origen with St Augustin of Hippo or some other Doctor of the Church. And it is totally wrong.
Hence, the concerning about his lacking canonization seems to be relevant and making the article more NPOV. This can be done without repeating the concern of his posthomous condemnation, at least since it is well known when he and his doctrine has been claimed as heretic. Micheledisaveriosp ( talk) 13:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)@ 50.204.245.34: You recently added this passage to the last paragraph of the lead, along with a great deal of other information which was both uncited and unsupported by the information given in the body of the article:
Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils due to his condemnation by five of these bodies according to the Roman Catholic reckoning and three according the the Eastern Orthodox enumeration.
I reverted this edit and you reverted my edit, suggesting Norman P. Tanner's Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils: Nicaea I to Lateran V to me in your edit summary, which you implied supports these claims you added to the article about Origen being a "Heresiarch." I do not, however, have access to that book and it is not available online, so I have no means of confirming whether it really says what you claim it says about Origen being regarded as a "Heresiarch." I will agree that, certainly, some people in ancient times regarded him as a Heresiarch and there are probably some people who still regard him as one today. Nonetheless, the statement that "Origen is considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" is clearly no longer true, if it was ever.
Even if Origen was condemned by subsequent councils after the Second Council of Constantinople (whose famous alleged condemnation of Origen, as I mention, is debated) and all the books on him somehow failed to mention this (or I somehow missed all the places where they do mention it, which is admittedly possible), it is still not accurate to say that he is "considered to be a Heresiarch by adherents of the Ecumenical Councils." I have yet to find a single scholarly source written in the modern era that calls him a "Heresiarch." Indeed, all the scholarly sources I have found written by orthodox Christian writers, both Protestant and Catholic, are favorable towards Origen, stating that later attacks on Origen's orthodoxy were either condemnations of what people influenced by Origen had claimed rather than what Origen himself had actually taught, or anachronistic judgments imposing the standards of orthodoxy of later eras onto Origen, who lived centuries prior in a very different theological environment, in which speculation was more widely tolerated.
Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that none other than Pope Benedict XVI included a sermon on Origen entitled "Origen of Alexandria: Life and Work" as part of his series of sermons Church Fathers: From Clement of Rome to Augustine delivered in 2007 in which he praises Origen as "a figure crucial to the whole development of Christian thought," "a true 'maestro,'" and "not only a brilliant theologian but also an exemplary witness of the doctrine he passed on." He concludes the sermon by urging his audience, "welcome into your hearts the teaching of this great master of the faith." I take this to mean that the Pope Emeritus himself is anathema, then? Perhaps we could say that some people regard him as a heretic, but we can certainly not say that all "adherents of the Ecumenical Councils" regard him as such. Furthermore, even if all the information you added turns out to be accurate and supported by reliable, scholarly sources, it is way too much information on the subject for the lead, which is already quite long as it is. – Katolophyromai ( talk) 23:01, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
It's fairly standard to give a phonetic "spelling" of the names of people on their page. For example, /juːˈsiːbiəs/; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Eusebios. And these are contemporary pronunciations, not the way their peers knew them.
I never know whether to say 'rig' as in 'ridge' or as in plain 'rig', as in origin or Oregon.
I hate "Joe-see-fss" . . . but that's what everyone seems to call him, at least in the English-speaking world. What do Israeli and, say, Romance-language scholars call him, I wonder? Nick Barnett ( talk) 15:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
The following passage from the "Views" section, under "Cosmology and Eschatology," contains what strongly seems to me an unsubstantiated claim:
The source that is expressly listed for the second sentence, which is the one I take issue with, can be found here.
St. Jerome actually speaks about translation (and refutes accusations of mistranslation against him in another case)
here. I really do not think we should be giving much credence to Dr. Chadwick (an evangelical Anglican, according to
Wikipedia -- Origen is canonized in the Anglican communion) in regard to Jerome's moral aptitude. I think St. Jerome himself would answer more accurately in that regard: his letter indicates that any mistranslations are not willful and his translations, per classical norms, sought to render sense for sense.
Ornithopolis (
talk) 03:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)