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The article is original and is based on original research. Dr Michael Foster.
I increased the amount of information on this Order and sited my information as the last two outside references on the page. I also added three pictures to the site. ESQ24
The statement that the postnominals associated with the Order of St. John are only used within the Order is incorrect, though they do not indicate rank on the Scale of Precedence, as correctly stated here. See the discussion about this on the talk page of the British Honours article. I have revised the statement in this article. 66.156.107.108
I have recently been doing research into soap opera actress Ruth Warrick and from a book published in 1992 I have found her listed as "Dame of Honour and Merit by the Imperial Russian Order of Saint John of Jerusalem Ecumenical Foundation". I assume she got this when she traveled to Russia circa 1991 as part of a "Global Forum" which met with Gorbachev about environmental problems. Can anyone tell me more about this ? Dowew 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I seriously doubt that Image:CrossofVOSJ.jpg is licenced under GFDL. In fact it says right under that image on that website on the desc. page, "Copyright (c) 2002 Order of Saint John. Priory in USA." Greentubing 08:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Greetings,
I was wondering if anyone can explain why this article is entitled Order of St John. It seems to me that it would be better to use its full title or a longer abbreviation (Venerable Order of Saint John, perhaps). It just seens that there is no reason why the British Order should have the title that makes other believe it is THE order of Saint John, even when there are many many others. For example, the German Alliance order is known by its full name of Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem.-- Evadb 10:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
How about something with an article for each of these:
If we had an article for each of the starred items, that should cover the topic pretty well. The origins of the Hospitaller Orders in general could either be covered under the SMOM or possibly under the alliance.-- dave-- 05:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I've got some excess time on my hand these days, so I thought I'd bring up this issue of organization again. Nothings seems to have been resolved last time around. The family of Orders of St John is confusing. There is a good deal of chaos in their organization on Wikipedia. The originally proposal by User:Boven (who now seems to be inactive) has been modified slightly. I'd like to see the articles written and organized thusly:
I think that an organization this way would be helpful. We could also add a category such as [[Category:St John Orders]] or something like that to group them all together, as well as a possible template showing their relationships. What say ya'll?-- Eva b d 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
How does this look for a possible template to be used to navigate between the various orders of saint john:
{{Saint John Orders}}
I'm not sure how best to list each order's name and there obviously a lot of red links, but any suggestions are more than welcome.-- Eva b d 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The name of this article seems to me to be a little artificial and not reflective of real usage - I can't find any citations of the Order being referred to as simply the "Venerable Order of Saint John". We should either use its full name (ie Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem), or the most commonly used short version, with appropriate disambiguation in parentheses (eg Order of St John (England)). -- Kwekubo ( talk) 19:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello! Thanks for putting the ribbon of the VOSJ on the page. I'm not sure it is entirely necessary, though, as the actual ribbon is shown immediately above it in the photograph. Would you be terribly offended if I removed your addition?-- Eva b d 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm doing some link-fixing on the disambiguation page Order of St John and see from the discussion above that there are several pages that you list that might usefully be added to that page - there are only 4 listed so far. Hope this will help cover Crosbiesmith's concerns as well.
BTW I like the template and think it should go a long way towards sorting out from the understanding and disambiguation angles. Think that should probably go onto the disambiguation page too. Good luck in your endeavours... Abbeybufo ( talk • contribs)
Can someone explain the image that is currently leading the article? It appears to be an oddly edited version the actual photograph of the insignia on the commons. I'd propose that we change it with the picture that actually shows what the insignia looks like. Any thoughts.-- Eva b d 04:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 20:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The convention is to use the most common form of the name used in English, therefore this article should properly be titled Order of St. John, per WP:NCCN, see http://www.orderofstjohn.org/. The full name, since the 1974 supplemental Royal Charter, is The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (as noted in the lead and infobox); it is never referred to as the "Venerable Order of Saint John" (a Google search only returns this page) and use of that designation here is incorrect.
I have moved the existing page at Order of St. John to Order of St. John (disambiguation) to accommodate a move. Chrisieboy ( talk) 21:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Oppose; the convention is to use the most common name if it is not ambiguous. This is ambiguous, hence the disambiguation page, which should be moved back to Order of St. John. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose on grounds of ambiguity. Srnec ( talk) 03:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose A very large number of uses of the term "Order of St. John" in published literature are not to the Venerable Order but to some other organisation (whether the Catholic order pre-1800 or one of several unrelated but strictly religious orders). The present article title is unambiguous. Noel S McFerran ( talk) 03:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose-- Eva b d 04:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose The venerable is necessary for disambiguation. Order of St. John could be applied to other organizations as well (such as the Knights Hospitaller). -- Regent's Park ( Boating Lake) 18:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Though the article mentions Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace, it does not say what the difference is. Opera hat ( talk) 10:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Recently, mention of Grade VI (Esquire) was removed from the article, along with a couple of other changes. Having done an extensive copyedit and update of this article not too long ago, I don't recall seeing anywhere that Grade VI, Chaplians, and Serving Brothers and Sisters had been abolished. Sedacca, could you please provide sources to support the edits you're making? -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The text claims that no post-nominal letters of the order are used outside the organization itself. However, contrary to that claim, my believe was always that it is common and allowed to use the post-nominal letters, as seen in many biographies in the media. This also would make sense since every grade has specific designated post-nominal letters; it would not be logical not to use those. So what is right? I think the Wikipedia text is wrong about this. Could someone show me the specific source that supports the current text? I could not find anything about non-usage of the post-nominal letters in the official Royal Charters and Statutes of the order, other than that is explained which designated post-nominal letters each grade has. Diodecimus ( talk) 10:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
In the section structure we should include who are the high officials. (The Sovereign Head, The Grand Prior, The Lord Prior of St. John etc.) In fact I know only who is The Sovereign Head (Elizabeth II) and even if The Grand Prior and the others have not an article, if someone knows their names he/she should include them. Thanks!-- 46.246.166.248 ( talk) 08:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
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@ Miesianiacal: Regarding the terms "badge" and "insignia", in keeping with other articles on heraldry, I take "badge" to mean a usually-metallic device that can be worn suspended from a ribbon around the neck, pinned to the breast, on a sash, or on a small piece of cloth. "Insignia" seems to be a more general term, which may include badges and ribbons as well as embroidered or printed symbols and illustrations. The current lead image is a badge according to the above, and its description by the original uploader.
Also, why did you revert the table changes? My changes made better use of space, properly used the caption, bolded the headers (instead of fading them), all in keeping with the current MOS for tables (and using the class intended).
BTW, there seems to be an inconsistency over what the actual six grades are. In some places (here and in sources), Grade VI is Esquire, while in other places, Grade VI is Member and Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace are separate grades (II and III). —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 20:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
@ Miesianiacal: The "St" versus "St." is a common problem. Shouldn't this particular article, being mostly related to the English arm of the Order, use the BrE standard "St"? It seems like much of the original prose did so, as do many of the articles to which it links. The history link on the unified site to which I pointed in my previous edit uses "St" uniformly. In fact, the entire website uses this form with the exception of the graphic in the header, and just 4 excerpts from other documents on the about page. —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 20:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Further reading: Talk:St. John Ambulance § A Dot .3F ... or Not .3F —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 21:13, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
This page was recently moved from Venerable Order of St John to St John International. I don't think I agree with the move, but welcome the thoughts of others. From what I have understood, the recent branding of St John International is meant to bring all the St John establishments under one umbrella. Thus, the Order still exists as such, the Ambulance organizations still exist, and the hospital in Jerusalem still exist. These are all run from St John's Gate as St John International. Would it not be better to leave this page where it was? Or am I not understanding the branding changes? Thanks.-- dave-- 20:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) per the additional discussion that followed the relisting on 16 March. Some editors proposed 'founded 1831' but it's hard to find reliable sources for that date. 'Most Venerable' is occasionally used by this society but it's not part of their official short name (The Order of St. John) which is ambiguous on Wikipedia. Per WP:OFFICIAL we prefer the common name anyway. The qualifier 'chartered 1888' is enough to uniquely identify this order. EdJohnston ( talk) 20:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Venerable Order of Saint John →
Most Venerable Order of Saint John – Requested by
User:Mabelina, because "the order is styled Most Venerable. If any prefix on the title page is going be used at all, why not use the correct one?"
[2] --Relisted.
EdJohnston (
talk) 22:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
DrKay (
talk) 19:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Oppose: As noted by GrindtXX the very sensible MOS principle of WP:COMMONNAME is that article names should normally use the common names of people or entitities in preference to either their full or official names. These can be mentioned and clarified in the article. Whatever the order's common name is this ought to be used for the article's name. Anglicanus ( talk) 00:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't see why the names of peers should be included, not just their titles. "Fred Templeton-Barkley, 9th Duke of Benthamshire" is unwieldy and unrealistic; peers were (and are) addressed (formally) as "the Duke of [X]" or "the Lord [X] of [Y]". One can find out which duke or baron it is that's being mentioned on this article by either clicking through the link or by noting any related date, searching for the article on the peerage, and looking for who held the title at the time. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 08:05, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
There have been some reversions related to the date that the Order was established. I think we've all agreed that the Order received its Royal Charter in 1888, but prior to that, what was the Order. I would contend that the Order was established in 1831 and was not a re-establishment, reincarnation, revival, etc. in anything but spirit. It was a new establishment in 1831. In Fincham's 1915 book on the Order, he admits that "...the Order was framed, as far as possible, on the precedents of the old Order" (that is the Order of Malta as we know it today). More recently, Riley-Smith's book makes it clear that in England, the Order of Malta ceased to exist in 1540. He also describes the early-nineteenth-century members of the Order of St John in England as "dreamers." He writes that "They recognized all the virtues they most cared about in the order of Malta, of which in spite of everything they believed themselves to be members." Any connection to previously established Orders of St John was purely fictitious. This was a new establishment. Guy Stair Sainty also discusses the foundation in 1831. He mentions that the knights of the new foundation had "the hope of reviving the Letters Patent of Queen Mary" that had reestablished the Order of Malta after its English dissolution in 1540. He also notes that "the early-nineteenth century English Priory was a purely private organization" even though the "claimed" a connection to the Order of Malta.
All of these scholars make the case pretty concretely that these early members of the Order BELIEVED that they were reviving the original hopsitaller Order of St John in England, but that this belief was totally unfounded in fact. Unless someone can provide a source claiming that there is some legal connection between the current Order and the original Order, I think it's clear that this is an Order established in 1831 and not re-established then. I'd love to hear others' thoughts.-- dave-- 21:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Frankly the whole Order of Saint John article was a complete mess before I made substantial corrections - which please take care to review properly and in full - were I more senior in Wikipedia I should have suggested to rip it up and start again but I chose to improve the existing articles - just take a look & then decide... Thank you. M Mabelina ( talk) 23:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I see a distinct lack of a citation for both the foundation year being 1831 and any claim the order was "revived" (and from what, exactly). -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Mabelina, your argument would be more persuasive if accompanied by
reliable sources. The link you provided above, at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/essex/vol2/pp178-179
, gives no evidence of any institutional continuity between the original Hospitallers and the 19th-century order chartered in 1888. There surely must be books by regular historians that look into this chain of events. The present article cites a book by H. J. A. Sire, The Knights of Malta, which is published by Yale so must be respectable. A limited preview is
here. It does include some mentions of the modern Protestant orders.
EdJohnston (
talk) 04:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Refer
User talk:Miesianiacal for further comment...
& for an educated & more informed perspective qv:
User talk:Qexigator (altho I think things are so far gone with the MOS gang that only Wiki authorities can set this dispute back onto a proper footing, i.e. relaying the correct info to the public). M
Mabelina (
talk) 11:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Clearly, pinpointing the date the order was created is difficult. However, it certainly wasn't 1888; receiving a royal charter was just one step after many in the order's history. Since the history section seems to convey the idea the order didn't appear on a specific date, but, rather, through development over a period between 1823 and 1831, I hope circa 1830 works for the "Established" parameter of the infobox. If not, maybe the field should just be left empty. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I have added the above link. The following is an edited extract:
Qexigator ( talk) 16:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Given the use of 'established' in this sort of context, and that this article is about the modern order as constituted by charter, and that it was certainly 'established' not later than 1888, there is no apparent reason for not letting the year '1888' be stated in the infobox. Was Canada 'established' before the federal constitution of 1867; or Australia before 1901; or the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg before 1815; or the Republic of India before 1950; or the Royal Society before 1662 [7]? (comparators chosen not entirely at random). As said above:
Qexigator ( talk) 10:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
The article content does not support 'continuation of a body that emerged in the 1820s'. [8], but in fact shows otherwise. After some private persons had been engaged in some activities, a group in England gave themselves a new direction and purpose of their own and formed a body by the name 'The Sovereign and Illustrious Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Anglia', intended to be distinct from what had gone before. This new entity grew its membership over the ensuing three decades. In 1871, a new constitution brought about further changes to the order's name, offering the more modest Order of Saint John of Jerusalem in England... That may be seen as consistent with continuity from 1830's but not 1820s. Qexigator ( talk) 22:26, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Certain recent edits have tended to be sniping more than improving the article, not only by direct error, as here [9], but in obscuring the actual sequence of events which brought into existence the Order which is named in the article's title, as here. [10] It is not acceptable repeatedly and erroneously to remove from the lead the significant and decisive fact of the formation of the distinct and separate body, by the name The Sovereign and Illustrious Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Anglia as described in the History section, and replace that with the vague and misleading words '...a faction of the Order of Malta that emerged in France in the 1820s ...after operating under a succession of different names...'. It is not clear why that editor has resolved to put the latter in place of the former, but, like any editor, he is free to discuss the point. In the meantime, the words which he has removed, are, contrary to his edit summaries, more in line with the History section and should be retained. It is because there are a plethora of names that it is important to identify the body by the name its then founder members adopted when they first formed themselves into a body having a separate and independent existence, as the name was intended to demonstrate, both then and after the later minor change of name. Qexigator ( talk) 23:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
I think it's the case that the class in question is now "Member" and therefore MStJ? Could someone verify and edit article if necessary? Rorate ( talk) 17:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Further comment: one of my sources would be http://www.stjohnsa.com.au/cms_resources/Understanding%20the%20Most%20Venerable%20Order%20of%20St%20John.pdf Rorate ( talk) 23:46, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I have just removed three links from the article:
It seems that the Order of St John has just instituted a new journal of historical papers related to the Order. These might help clarify some of the questions regarding the date of foundation/revival. The first issue contains a very relevant paper by former Lord Prior Anthony Mellows. It can be downloaded here if anyone wants to start incorporating anything.-- dave-- 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Miesianiacal: You had objections on my proposal. What are your objections, please? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 23:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Your most contentious change is "royal order of chivalry first constituted in 1888" to "dynastic order of knighthood chartered in 1888". As I've already mentioned, there was much discussion around that particular sentence and what's there now was the result. As such, if you want to change it, you're going to need to form another consensus.
Aside from that, there's no need for "Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland". "Queen Victoria" suffices. -- ₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:07, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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CStJ for instance, refers to a Commander of the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) and should be redirected to this page as well as any other of its post-nominals. It was chartered by Queen Victoria and is not to be confused with this reconstituted lay Catholic Order Sovereign Military Order of Malta based in Rome. The British Order of Saint John is responsible for the all volunteer St. John's Ambulance Brigade etc around the world and is the British Order referred to by this post nominal.
See both different Wikipedia pages for full explanation of the different Orders. The British Order to which the decoration post-nominal CStJ etc applies is Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) - details can be found on the post nominals in the entry on this gage - but It has been confused and erroneously redirects to the Catholic lay order Sovereign Military Order of Malta. They are two entirely different Orders involved in entirely different things.
The names are easily confused but this needs clarifying.
Dear Editor, can you kindly correct this mistaken redirect to correctly direct to the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) from, the incorrect present re-direct to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta ? I imagine both Orders and any confused readers would be grateful.
Many thanks. All of you do a wonderful and much appreciated work.
William Macadam ( talk) 15:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks for this. Please go to Ivison Macadam page (Sir Ivison Stevenson Macadam KCVO CBE CStJ FRSE FKC) and you will see what I am talking about. The CStJ links incorrectly to the Rome lay Catholic Order and not the British Order of Saint John (sovereign head Queen Elizabeth II, responsible for the all volunteer St John's Ambulance Brigade etc internationally and you will see the problem. Google has it right and takes it CStJ to the right order. Wikipedia headed Order of Saint John (chartered 1888).
I took it out of the post nominals earlier today because of the wrong re-direct but have reinstated it so you can see the problem.
Would much appreciate hit if you can help sort it.
Many thanks,
William Macadam ( talk) 00:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks. I see the Ivison Macadam page now redirects correctly to Order of St. John. Very good of you.
CStJ refers to Commander of this British Order of St. John with the British monarch at its head. See the Wikipedia page which lays out the ranks and post nominals correctly at Order of Saint John (chartered 1888). Because it can easily be confused with the different Rome (Vatican, I believe) Catholic lay Order is the more reason the online Wikipedia Encyclopaedia has them both right, especially as most people will not know what this British post nominal stands for and may use the link to find out.
Much appreciate your assistance on this.
William Macadam ( talk) 11:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
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Under DGC we have Lady Mary Barttelot. Only first glance this looks wrong. As we talking about Hon. Mary Angela Fiona Weld Forester who married Colonel Sir Brian Walter de Stopham Barttelot, 5th Bt. The honours referenced to her appear to match; then she is "Lady Barttelot" Garlicplanting ( talk) 12:10, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Unless I've missed it, this article doesn't explain what the distinction is between a Knight/Dame of Justice and a Knight/Dame of Grace. Are they considered different levels of seniority, or would each one be awarded to a different category of person (clergy vs non-clergy?)? Proteus (Talk) 11:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
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The article is original and is based on original research. Dr Michael Foster.
I increased the amount of information on this Order and sited my information as the last two outside references on the page. I also added three pictures to the site. ESQ24
The statement that the postnominals associated with the Order of St. John are only used within the Order is incorrect, though they do not indicate rank on the Scale of Precedence, as correctly stated here. See the discussion about this on the talk page of the British Honours article. I have revised the statement in this article. 66.156.107.108
I have recently been doing research into soap opera actress Ruth Warrick and from a book published in 1992 I have found her listed as "Dame of Honour and Merit by the Imperial Russian Order of Saint John of Jerusalem Ecumenical Foundation". I assume she got this when she traveled to Russia circa 1991 as part of a "Global Forum" which met with Gorbachev about environmental problems. Can anyone tell me more about this ? Dowew 02:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I seriously doubt that Image:CrossofVOSJ.jpg is licenced under GFDL. In fact it says right under that image on that website on the desc. page, "Copyright (c) 2002 Order of Saint John. Priory in USA." Greentubing 08:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Greetings,
I was wondering if anyone can explain why this article is entitled Order of St John. It seems to me that it would be better to use its full title or a longer abbreviation (Venerable Order of Saint John, perhaps). It just seens that there is no reason why the British Order should have the title that makes other believe it is THE order of Saint John, even when there are many many others. For example, the German Alliance order is known by its full name of Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem.-- Evadb 10:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
How about something with an article for each of these:
If we had an article for each of the starred items, that should cover the topic pretty well. The origins of the Hospitaller Orders in general could either be covered under the SMOM or possibly under the alliance.-- dave-- 05:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I've got some excess time on my hand these days, so I thought I'd bring up this issue of organization again. Nothings seems to have been resolved last time around. The family of Orders of St John is confusing. There is a good deal of chaos in their organization on Wikipedia. The originally proposal by User:Boven (who now seems to be inactive) has been modified slightly. I'd like to see the articles written and organized thusly:
I think that an organization this way would be helpful. We could also add a category such as [[Category:St John Orders]] or something like that to group them all together, as well as a possible template showing their relationships. What say ya'll?-- Eva b d 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
How does this look for a possible template to be used to navigate between the various orders of saint john:
{{Saint John Orders}}
I'm not sure how best to list each order's name and there obviously a lot of red links, but any suggestions are more than welcome.-- Eva b d 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The name of this article seems to me to be a little artificial and not reflective of real usage - I can't find any citations of the Order being referred to as simply the "Venerable Order of Saint John". We should either use its full name (ie Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem), or the most commonly used short version, with appropriate disambiguation in parentheses (eg Order of St John (England)). -- Kwekubo ( talk) 19:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello! Thanks for putting the ribbon of the VOSJ on the page. I'm not sure it is entirely necessary, though, as the actual ribbon is shown immediately above it in the photograph. Would you be terribly offended if I removed your addition?-- Eva b d 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm doing some link-fixing on the disambiguation page Order of St John and see from the discussion above that there are several pages that you list that might usefully be added to that page - there are only 4 listed so far. Hope this will help cover Crosbiesmith's concerns as well.
BTW I like the template and think it should go a long way towards sorting out from the understanding and disambiguation angles. Think that should probably go onto the disambiguation page too. Good luck in your endeavours... Abbeybufo ( talk • contribs)
Can someone explain the image that is currently leading the article? It appears to be an oddly edited version the actual photograph of the insignia on the commons. I'd propose that we change it with the picture that actually shows what the insignia looks like. Any thoughts.-- Eva b d 04:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 20:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The convention is to use the most common form of the name used in English, therefore this article should properly be titled Order of St. John, per WP:NCCN, see http://www.orderofstjohn.org/. The full name, since the 1974 supplemental Royal Charter, is The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (as noted in the lead and infobox); it is never referred to as the "Venerable Order of Saint John" (a Google search only returns this page) and use of that designation here is incorrect.
I have moved the existing page at Order of St. John to Order of St. John (disambiguation) to accommodate a move. Chrisieboy ( talk) 21:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Oppose; the convention is to use the most common name if it is not ambiguous. This is ambiguous, hence the disambiguation page, which should be moved back to Order of St. John. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose on grounds of ambiguity. Srnec ( talk) 03:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose A very large number of uses of the term "Order of St. John" in published literature are not to the Venerable Order but to some other organisation (whether the Catholic order pre-1800 or one of several unrelated but strictly religious orders). The present article title is unambiguous. Noel S McFerran ( talk) 03:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose-- Eva b d 04:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose The venerable is necessary for disambiguation. Order of St. John could be applied to other organizations as well (such as the Knights Hospitaller). -- Regent's Park ( Boating Lake) 18:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Though the article mentions Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace, it does not say what the difference is. Opera hat ( talk) 10:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Recently, mention of Grade VI (Esquire) was removed from the article, along with a couple of other changes. Having done an extensive copyedit and update of this article not too long ago, I don't recall seeing anywhere that Grade VI, Chaplians, and Serving Brothers and Sisters had been abolished. Sedacca, could you please provide sources to support the edits you're making? -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:39, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The text claims that no post-nominal letters of the order are used outside the organization itself. However, contrary to that claim, my believe was always that it is common and allowed to use the post-nominal letters, as seen in many biographies in the media. This also would make sense since every grade has specific designated post-nominal letters; it would not be logical not to use those. So what is right? I think the Wikipedia text is wrong about this. Could someone show me the specific source that supports the current text? I could not find anything about non-usage of the post-nominal letters in the official Royal Charters and Statutes of the order, other than that is explained which designated post-nominal letters each grade has. Diodecimus ( talk) 10:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
In the section structure we should include who are the high officials. (The Sovereign Head, The Grand Prior, The Lord Prior of St. John etc.) In fact I know only who is The Sovereign Head (Elizabeth II) and even if The Grand Prior and the others have not an article, if someone knows their names he/she should include them. Thanks!-- 46.246.166.248 ( talk) 08:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
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@ Miesianiacal: Regarding the terms "badge" and "insignia", in keeping with other articles on heraldry, I take "badge" to mean a usually-metallic device that can be worn suspended from a ribbon around the neck, pinned to the breast, on a sash, or on a small piece of cloth. "Insignia" seems to be a more general term, which may include badges and ribbons as well as embroidered or printed symbols and illustrations. The current lead image is a badge according to the above, and its description by the original uploader.
Also, why did you revert the table changes? My changes made better use of space, properly used the caption, bolded the headers (instead of fading them), all in keeping with the current MOS for tables (and using the class intended).
BTW, there seems to be an inconsistency over what the actual six grades are. In some places (here and in sources), Grade VI is Esquire, while in other places, Grade VI is Member and Knights of Justice and Knights of Grace are separate grades (II and III). —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 20:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
@ Miesianiacal: The "St" versus "St." is a common problem. Shouldn't this particular article, being mostly related to the English arm of the Order, use the BrE standard "St"? It seems like much of the original prose did so, as do many of the articles to which it links. The history link on the unified site to which I pointed in my previous edit uses "St" uniformly. In fact, the entire website uses this form with the exception of the graphic in the header, and just 4 excerpts from other documents on the about page. —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 20:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Further reading: Talk:St. John Ambulance § A Dot .3F ... or Not .3F —[ AlanM1( talk)]— 21:13, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
This page was recently moved from Venerable Order of St John to St John International. I don't think I agree with the move, but welcome the thoughts of others. From what I have understood, the recent branding of St John International is meant to bring all the St John establishments under one umbrella. Thus, the Order still exists as such, the Ambulance organizations still exist, and the hospital in Jerusalem still exist. These are all run from St John's Gate as St John International. Would it not be better to leave this page where it was? Or am I not understanding the branding changes? Thanks.-- dave-- 20:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) per the additional discussion that followed the relisting on 16 March. Some editors proposed 'founded 1831' but it's hard to find reliable sources for that date. 'Most Venerable' is occasionally used by this society but it's not part of their official short name (The Order of St. John) which is ambiguous on Wikipedia. Per WP:OFFICIAL we prefer the common name anyway. The qualifier 'chartered 1888' is enough to uniquely identify this order. EdJohnston ( talk) 20:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Venerable Order of Saint John →
Most Venerable Order of Saint John – Requested by
User:Mabelina, because "the order is styled Most Venerable. If any prefix on the title page is going be used at all, why not use the correct one?"
[2] --Relisted.
EdJohnston (
talk) 22:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
DrKay (
talk) 19:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Oppose: As noted by GrindtXX the very sensible MOS principle of WP:COMMONNAME is that article names should normally use the common names of people or entitities in preference to either their full or official names. These can be mentioned and clarified in the article. Whatever the order's common name is this ought to be used for the article's name. Anglicanus ( talk) 00:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't see why the names of peers should be included, not just their titles. "Fred Templeton-Barkley, 9th Duke of Benthamshire" is unwieldy and unrealistic; peers were (and are) addressed (formally) as "the Duke of [X]" or "the Lord [X] of [Y]". One can find out which duke or baron it is that's being mentioned on this article by either clicking through the link or by noting any related date, searching for the article on the peerage, and looking for who held the title at the time. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 08:05, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
There have been some reversions related to the date that the Order was established. I think we've all agreed that the Order received its Royal Charter in 1888, but prior to that, what was the Order. I would contend that the Order was established in 1831 and was not a re-establishment, reincarnation, revival, etc. in anything but spirit. It was a new establishment in 1831. In Fincham's 1915 book on the Order, he admits that "...the Order was framed, as far as possible, on the precedents of the old Order" (that is the Order of Malta as we know it today). More recently, Riley-Smith's book makes it clear that in England, the Order of Malta ceased to exist in 1540. He also describes the early-nineteenth-century members of the Order of St John in England as "dreamers." He writes that "They recognized all the virtues they most cared about in the order of Malta, of which in spite of everything they believed themselves to be members." Any connection to previously established Orders of St John was purely fictitious. This was a new establishment. Guy Stair Sainty also discusses the foundation in 1831. He mentions that the knights of the new foundation had "the hope of reviving the Letters Patent of Queen Mary" that had reestablished the Order of Malta after its English dissolution in 1540. He also notes that "the early-nineteenth century English Priory was a purely private organization" even though the "claimed" a connection to the Order of Malta.
All of these scholars make the case pretty concretely that these early members of the Order BELIEVED that they were reviving the original hopsitaller Order of St John in England, but that this belief was totally unfounded in fact. Unless someone can provide a source claiming that there is some legal connection between the current Order and the original Order, I think it's clear that this is an Order established in 1831 and not re-established then. I'd love to hear others' thoughts.-- dave-- 21:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Frankly the whole Order of Saint John article was a complete mess before I made substantial corrections - which please take care to review properly and in full - were I more senior in Wikipedia I should have suggested to rip it up and start again but I chose to improve the existing articles - just take a look & then decide... Thank you. M Mabelina ( talk) 23:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I see a distinct lack of a citation for both the foundation year being 1831 and any claim the order was "revived" (and from what, exactly). -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Mabelina, your argument would be more persuasive if accompanied by
reliable sources. The link you provided above, at
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/essex/vol2/pp178-179
, gives no evidence of any institutional continuity between the original Hospitallers and the 19th-century order chartered in 1888. There surely must be books by regular historians that look into this chain of events. The present article cites a book by H. J. A. Sire, The Knights of Malta, which is published by Yale so must be respectable. A limited preview is
here. It does include some mentions of the modern Protestant orders.
EdJohnston (
talk) 04:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Refer
User talk:Miesianiacal for further comment...
& for an educated & more informed perspective qv:
User talk:Qexigator (altho I think things are so far gone with the MOS gang that only Wiki authorities can set this dispute back onto a proper footing, i.e. relaying the correct info to the public). M
Mabelina (
talk) 11:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Clearly, pinpointing the date the order was created is difficult. However, it certainly wasn't 1888; receiving a royal charter was just one step after many in the order's history. Since the history section seems to convey the idea the order didn't appear on a specific date, but, rather, through development over a period between 1823 and 1831, I hope circa 1830 works for the "Established" parameter of the infobox. If not, maybe the field should just be left empty. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I have added the above link. The following is an edited extract:
Qexigator ( talk) 16:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Given the use of 'established' in this sort of context, and that this article is about the modern order as constituted by charter, and that it was certainly 'established' not later than 1888, there is no apparent reason for not letting the year '1888' be stated in the infobox. Was Canada 'established' before the federal constitution of 1867; or Australia before 1901; or the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg before 1815; or the Republic of India before 1950; or the Royal Society before 1662 [7]? (comparators chosen not entirely at random). As said above:
Qexigator ( talk) 10:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
The article content does not support 'continuation of a body that emerged in the 1820s'. [8], but in fact shows otherwise. After some private persons had been engaged in some activities, a group in England gave themselves a new direction and purpose of their own and formed a body by the name 'The Sovereign and Illustrious Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Anglia', intended to be distinct from what had gone before. This new entity grew its membership over the ensuing three decades. In 1871, a new constitution brought about further changes to the order's name, offering the more modest Order of Saint John of Jerusalem in England... That may be seen as consistent with continuity from 1830's but not 1820s. Qexigator ( talk) 22:26, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Certain recent edits have tended to be sniping more than improving the article, not only by direct error, as here [9], but in obscuring the actual sequence of events which brought into existence the Order which is named in the article's title, as here. [10] It is not acceptable repeatedly and erroneously to remove from the lead the significant and decisive fact of the formation of the distinct and separate body, by the name The Sovereign and Illustrious Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, Anglia as described in the History section, and replace that with the vague and misleading words '...a faction of the Order of Malta that emerged in France in the 1820s ...after operating under a succession of different names...'. It is not clear why that editor has resolved to put the latter in place of the former, but, like any editor, he is free to discuss the point. In the meantime, the words which he has removed, are, contrary to his edit summaries, more in line with the History section and should be retained. It is because there are a plethora of names that it is important to identify the body by the name its then founder members adopted when they first formed themselves into a body having a separate and independent existence, as the name was intended to demonstrate, both then and after the later minor change of name. Qexigator ( talk) 23:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
I think it's the case that the class in question is now "Member" and therefore MStJ? Could someone verify and edit article if necessary? Rorate ( talk) 17:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Further comment: one of my sources would be http://www.stjohnsa.com.au/cms_resources/Understanding%20the%20Most%20Venerable%20Order%20of%20St%20John.pdf Rorate ( talk) 23:46, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I have just removed three links from the article:
It seems that the Order of St John has just instituted a new journal of historical papers related to the Order. These might help clarify some of the questions regarding the date of foundation/revival. The first issue contains a very relevant paper by former Lord Prior Anthony Mellows. It can be downloaded here if anyone wants to start incorporating anything.-- dave-- 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Miesianiacal: You had objections on my proposal. What are your objections, please? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 23:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Your most contentious change is "royal order of chivalry first constituted in 1888" to "dynastic order of knighthood chartered in 1888". As I've already mentioned, there was much discussion around that particular sentence and what's there now was the result. As such, if you want to change it, you're going to need to form another consensus.
Aside from that, there's no need for "Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland". "Queen Victoria" suffices. -- ₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:07, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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CStJ for instance, refers to a Commander of the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) and should be redirected to this page as well as any other of its post-nominals. It was chartered by Queen Victoria and is not to be confused with this reconstituted lay Catholic Order Sovereign Military Order of Malta based in Rome. The British Order of Saint John is responsible for the all volunteer St. John's Ambulance Brigade etc around the world and is the British Order referred to by this post nominal.
See both different Wikipedia pages for full explanation of the different Orders. The British Order to which the decoration post-nominal CStJ etc applies is Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) - details can be found on the post nominals in the entry on this gage - but It has been confused and erroneously redirects to the Catholic lay order Sovereign Military Order of Malta. They are two entirely different Orders involved in entirely different things.
The names are easily confused but this needs clarifying.
Dear Editor, can you kindly correct this mistaken redirect to correctly direct to the British Order of Saint John (chartered 1888) from, the incorrect present re-direct to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta ? I imagine both Orders and any confused readers would be grateful.
Many thanks. All of you do a wonderful and much appreciated work.
William Macadam ( talk) 15:59, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks for this. Please go to Ivison Macadam page (Sir Ivison Stevenson Macadam KCVO CBE CStJ FRSE FKC) and you will see what I am talking about. The CStJ links incorrectly to the Rome lay Catholic Order and not the British Order of Saint John (sovereign head Queen Elizabeth II, responsible for the all volunteer St John's Ambulance Brigade etc internationally and you will see the problem. Google has it right and takes it CStJ to the right order. Wikipedia headed Order of Saint John (chartered 1888).
I took it out of the post nominals earlier today because of the wrong re-direct but have reinstated it so you can see the problem.
Would much appreciate hit if you can help sort it.
Many thanks,
William Macadam ( talk) 00:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks. I see the Ivison Macadam page now redirects correctly to Order of St. John. Very good of you.
CStJ refers to Commander of this British Order of St. John with the British monarch at its head. See the Wikipedia page which lays out the ranks and post nominals correctly at Order of Saint John (chartered 1888). Because it can easily be confused with the different Rome (Vatican, I believe) Catholic lay Order is the more reason the online Wikipedia Encyclopaedia has them both right, especially as most people will not know what this British post nominal stands for and may use the link to find out.
Much appreciate your assistance on this.
William Macadam ( talk) 11:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
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Under DGC we have Lady Mary Barttelot. Only first glance this looks wrong. As we talking about Hon. Mary Angela Fiona Weld Forester who married Colonel Sir Brian Walter de Stopham Barttelot, 5th Bt. The honours referenced to her appear to match; then she is "Lady Barttelot" Garlicplanting ( talk) 12:10, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Unless I've missed it, this article doesn't explain what the distinction is between a Knight/Dame of Justice and a Knight/Dame of Grace. Are they considered different levels of seniority, or would each one be awarded to a different category of person (clergy vs non-clergy?)? Proteus (Talk) 11:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)