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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
@86.28.230.177. The citation of an academic work (a published book by an academic press) regarding the subject in question is not an "irrelevant citation". In fact, vis-a-vis Wikipedia criteria, it ticks all the boxes in respect of being a reliable and verifiable source. I have therefore removed the "irrelevant citation" tag. Coolmoon ( talk) 11:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
@82.16.252.128. Some anonymous blog is not a reliable source according to Wikipedia criteria. Also, terms such as "significant" and "biggest" are not neutral, and thus contravene Wikipedia NPOV. Is the nknews website a reliable source regarding the ONA? IMO, no, since the article referenced does not mention the ONA at all. Therefore I have reverted the edits. But feel free to provide evidence that the nknews website is a reliable source of info re the ONA according to Wikipedia criteria. Coolmoon ( talk) 11:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Removed the weasel-words tag for as stated in the Wikipedia manual of style claims "should be clearly attributed" and "views which are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source." The expression used - "one of the most extreme Satanist groups in the world" - is attributed to a reliable source in the "beliefs and structure" section and does reflect the view of the person concerned.
According to my understanding what is in the lead section of an article does not need an in-line citation providing a citation is given in the body of the article where the quotation appears in the relevant section. Coolmoon ( talk) 05:33, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
In a recent change to the Wikipedia article is was claimed that "Massimo Introvigne stated that the ONA has more or less acknowledged that Myatt and Long are the same person."
Since this claim has been disputed by the O9A it seems relevant - re presenting a NPOV - to reference their rebuttal to Introvigne's claim, which rebuttal is in the More Academic Inaccuracies section of the article Academia, David Myatt, and the Order of Nine Angles to which I have provided a link. Coolmoon ( talk) 15:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Can anybody here verify Knife Sotelo's claim:
"Sotelo began to pursue other Satanic religious practices and became the Outer Representative of the Order of Nine Anglesand remained its spokesperson until 2013..."
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Knife%22_Sotelo
I'm unaware of he ever being associated with the ONA, let alone being its Outer Rep. LEFT9 ( talk) 21:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
As Midnightblueowl noted in her recent revert of your edit the criteria of Wikipedia is verifiability by reliable published third-party sources such as books, articles, and mainstream newspapers. Were such a source to publish what you mention vis-a-vis the O9A then it could be included in the O9A article. Pavane7 ( talk) 22:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Why delete this reference in the lead as it is referenced later in mainstream media in the article? Pavane7 ( talk) 17:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The source given for the allegations is not a credible source according to Wikipedia criteria. See /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources. Therefore I have reverted the edit. Pavane7 ( talk) 01:38, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted the edit and substituted "associated" in place of "affiliated". For given the nature of the O9A/ONA - as described in the Wikipedia entry, in articles on its omega9alpha blog, and by academics such as Monette - the O9A itself is not affiliated to any group be it "the sinister coven" or any other. Other groups, and individuals, can claim to be associated with or inspired by the O9A and that's all. Examples include Tempel ov Blood in America and Secuntra Nexion in Italy.
Since, to quote Monette, the ONA is "a movement, a subculture or perhaps metaculture that its adherents choose to embody or identify with" it has no central authority, and no leader, and thus there is no one person, or any persons, who can claim to represent or who can claim to speak or write on behalf of the O9A, and who thus can say that the ONA is affiliated with this or that group.
See the article on the O9A blog at https://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/o9a-exoteric-and-esoteric-reality/
I quote from that article: "In practice, this exoteric and esoteric understanding means that, as Anton Long and many others have stated time and time again, no one person, no one O9A nexion, no collocations of O9A nexions, can ever speak or write "on behalf of the O9A" since one of the fundamental principles of O9A philosophy, based on its exoteric and esoteric reality, is what is termed the authority of individual judgment. This principles means that the O9A does not have, never has had, and never will have an "official policy" about anything, and never has, and never will make official statements about anything." Pavane7 ( talk) 06:16, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I was wondering if the Temple of THEM and the White Star Acception qualify for references in the info box? Dr. George Seig and Dr. Monette mention them in their respective articles Angular Momentum and Chapter 5. The Quietus also did an article on ONA which mentions both of them. Tankumudi ( talk) 23:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Reverted edit. The lead does not require references, they are provided in the following sections: see Senholt (reference #149) and Monette (reference#150) regarding estimates. The context of the statement is broadly associated with the O9A, not actual membership.
In addition, the 1990s claim by Harvey that there are "fewer than five" is ridiculous - and perhaps should be removed from the article - given how many people responded to the poll by Lewis regarding involvement with the O9A, (reference#152) and the fact that recent mainstream media reports - qv. references #160, 161, 162, 163, and other references not included in the article - indicate O9A infiltration of right wing groups such as Atomwaffen, National Action, and Sonnenkrieg Division, with the O9A, as reported by BBC journalist Daniel De Simonet, recently (October 2019) mentioned at a trial of someone accused of terrorism as the “most prominent and recognisable link between Satanism and the extreme right,” https://mobile.twitter.com/DdesimoneDaniel/status/1182394450657628160, and http://www.o9a.org/2019/10/the-terrorism-trial-and-the-o9a/
Thus those broadly associated with the O9A include members of groups such as Atomwaffen, National Action, and Sonnenkrieg Division, as well as some musicians - as mentioned in the 2018 Quietus article about O9A entryism in the Black metal music scene, and so on. Pavane7 ( talk) 17:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted the edit since according to /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources BBC News is a reliable source. The ban was also reported in the New Statesman - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/03/nazi-satanist-cult-fuelling-far-right-terrorist-groups-overlooked-uk-authorities-order-nine-angles and the Times of Israel at https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/calls-for-neo-nazi-satanist-group-to-be-banned-as-terrorist-organisation/
It is note worthy that the ban is supported by several members of the British parliament including Yvette Cooper and Louise Haigh - Member of Parliament for Sheffield Heeley and Shadow Policing & Crime Minister - both of whom are mentioned in the New Statesman. Haigh issued a statement that said "the government must move to proscribe the Order of Nine Angles as a terror group. Their beliefs and tactics are horrific and they pose the most extreme danger imaginable". Pavane7 ( talk) 10:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I reverted certain edits since the political advocacy group "Hope not hate" is listed in /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources as unreliable and biased it does not seem appropriate - re NPOV - to extensively quote from their literature or statements by their spokespeople, especially as the O9A has issued rebuttals to many of their accusations: see for example https://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/o9a-truth-and-propaganda/ Pavane7 ( talk) 09:35, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
To say that "extremist organizations generally do not get the benefit of the doubt" in Wikipedia, of having their side heard, is IMO against presenting a NPOV since who defines what is "extremist" and why? To present the O9A rebuttal of non-probative (prejudicial) allegations made by a political advocacy group is IMO presenting a NPOV.
What you seem to be saying is that in, respect of Wikipedia, groups or people you and some others deem to be "extremist" should not be treated in a neutral manner, and that such groups or people should not be allowed to present their rebuttal to non-probative allegations. In other words, and again IMO, it is akin to a criminal trial in which the prosecution makes allegations while the defense is not allowed to produce evidence which challenges such accusations.
You wrote: "several articles by BBC and others back the statements made by Hope not Hate." No, they do not "back the statements", they just repeat the non-probative allegations made by a political advocacy group, as do all the references you gave.
Also there is nothing probative to prove that Richard Moult was a "leader" of the O9A. Pavane7 ( talk) 17:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
[1] -- Ghettobuoy ( talk) 00:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to sexual abuse as this in my opinion is not mentioned in any O9A material dating from 1976 to 2020 and which material includes the Deofel Quartet, Naos, Hostia, Black Book, and recent works such as Feond. It was and is a non-evidential claim made by various antifascist groups. There are several O9A texts which describe sexual abusers as suitable candidates for what the O9A term culling. This is mentioned in several replies published in rebuttal of allegations made by a particular anti-fascist group, one of which is titled Exposing Twelve Basic Errors, Or, How To Spread Fake News.
To me, such an addition does not present a NPOV.
The fact that some individuals who associate themselves with the O9A may have promoted such a thing does not means the esoteric philosophy of the O9A promotes or condones it especially as, technically, the O9A is such a philosophy and not a group with members and never has had a leader. One might as well condemn the whole Catholic Church on the basis that some of its adherents have committed sexual abuse.
Further, no one can contact the O9A as it has no contact information and no spokesperson just as a philosophy has no contact information and no spokesperson. The nature of the O9A is explained in the text titled Beyond Nihilism and Anarchy: The O9A. The fact is that most if not all O9A critics do not bother to read such works as that one, and works such as Feond, and Baeldraca, and Tyberness, which present O9A philosophy and give copious references to O9A texts. If they do read such texts they would get a more balanced view of the O9A. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 09:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
You et al are reproducing allegations made by an anti-fascist group who supply no evidence from established O9A texts such as Naos, Hostia, the Deofel Quartet, and books such as Feond.
The press and other reports you linked to merely repeat the unproven allegations and make no mention of O9A texts such as the above. Even the report in Hansard shows that MP's are merely repeating such unproven allegations.
If you or anyone can find in established published O9A texts any proof for the allegations then I will withdraw my objections. Have you read, for instance, Feond, and Baeldraca, and Tyberness? If not why not? Have you read the pro-Lesbian O9A novel Breaking The Silence Down, published decades ago? Are you aware of the O9A Code of Kindred Honor which enshrines gender equality?
Until there is evidence - not merely rumors and allegations - it is against, IMO, the NPOV to state that the O9A is supporting the criminal activity of sexual assault.
That a few of the supporters of the O9A might be involved in such activities is far enough, but to extrapolate from a few such supporters to castigate O9A philosophy itself is a logical fallacy, just as castigating the whole Catholic church for the aberrant behavior of some of its adherents is illogical. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 09:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The dispute is about NPOV. You give prominence to unproven allegations and do not give the O9A denial, which is against NPOV. So, I have included a new section titled Sexual Abuse which includes all your references and provides a reference to the O9A response. This IMO restores a NPOV while having mention of such unproven allegations in the info-box does not in my opinion present a NPOV.
Also you fail to mention that those who support or are influenced by the O9A are not the O9A which is an esoteric philosophy not a group. In addition you repeat the unproven allegation that Myatt is a Satanist, something he has always denied and for which there is no actual evidence. See for example https://davidmyatt.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/a-matter-of-honour.pdf -- Pavane7 ( talk) 06:44, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
In my opinion there are three issues here.
1. NPOV. Where there is a conflict describe both points of view and work for balance. Giving prominence - as in the info box - to one point of view (accusations made and repeated with no reference to primary O9A sources) does not present a NPOV.
No one has presented any evidence from primary O9A sources - such as the 1970s and 1990s texts Naos, Hostia, and the Deofel Quartet, and from Breaking The Silence Down, and the O9A Code of Kindred Honor - that the O9A condones and encourages sexual abuse. Quite the contrary, as the pro-Lesbian novel Breaking The Silence Down and the female characters in the Deofel Quartet reveal.
It seems that those making and repeating the accusations have not bothered to read such primary O9A texts. The fact that the accusations made against the O9A do not provide any evidence from such texts needs mentioning.
Which brings us to the second point.
2. Membership. Since the O9A is an anarchist philosophy it cannot have members - only those who associate with some or all of that philosophy or who are inspired by it and who may form their own nexions. The anarchist nature of the O9A was made clear as early as the 1990s in letters sent to people such as Aquino of the Temple of Set; letters published in 1992 in the two volumes titled The Satanic Letters Of Stephen Brown. Those letters are primary sources in respect of the O9A and are quoted from in texts such as https://wyrdsister.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/o9a-nihilism-anarchy.pdf
Again, such primary O9A sources seem to have been ignored. How can an esoteric philosophy - anarchist in nature - be banned?
Also, what someone or some group associating themselves with or influenced by the O9A believe or propagate does not mean that they represent the O9A, no more than Catholic priests or monks who abuse children represent the world-wide Catholic church.
3. Neo-Nazism. As a study of basic O9A texts would have revealed the O9A praises Hitler and the Third Reich because to do so is antinomian - a modern heresy; with joining and supporting neo-nazi groups just one Insight Role among many and which last at most eighteen months after which the individual moves on to other things such as spending three or more months living alone in the wilderness. See such texts as the aforementioned The O9A: Beyond Nihilism And Anarchism, and text such as the 300 page http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-trilogy-print.pdf
Thus, this and my others posts here are not an attempt to whitewash the O9A but to understand it on the basis of its primary texts, beyond the unproven accusations of those with a particular political agenda.
in view of this, I have removed mentioned of unproven sexual abuse allegations from the info-box as it is covered in the Sexual Abuse section. If anyone can show that, according to primary O9A sources, that O9A philosophy condones and encourages such abuse then I will admit my error. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 19:51, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
cannot have membersand simultaneously claim people who
associating themselves withthe movement
does not mean that they represent the O9A. Especially while you above talk about
primary O9A sources. If no one is a member, then who determines which sources are real O9A ones?
As a study of basic O9A texts would have revealed the O9A praises Hitler and the Third Reich because to do so is antinomian - a modern heresy; with joining and supporting neo-nazi groups just one Insight Role among many
If anyone can show that, according to primary O9A sources
Since the O9A is not a group with members but an esoteric philosophy and has no central authority and no contact details there are and can be no members, only those who support or are inspired by that philosophy, which is outlined in primary O9A sources such as Naos, Feond, and The Deofel Quartet.
As for the book The Dreccian Way it is a compilation of articles by various authors, with Moult having denied writing one article which had his name attached. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 06:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If you read primary O9A texts - and not what others have written about the O9A - you will see that the O9A has no "inner circle" which term is a supposition by others. The recent 300 page text the Seofonfeald Paeth explains the matter, http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-trilogy-print.pdf
See also the text The O9A: Beyond Nihilism And Anarchism, which quotes from 1990s O9A texts such as The Satanic Letters Of Stephen Brown, some of which letters were sent to Aquino of the Temple of Set, and which include his replies. http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-nihilism-anarchy.pdf
The problem here, as often, is separating the actual O9A - as evident in their primary texts - from what others, including some of its supporters, have written or assumed about it. It seems few commentators and fewer supporters have taken the trouble the read the entire O9A corpus. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 04:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
In reply to RKT7789. You rely heavily on the accusations of HnH - which being a group with a political agenda is not always a reliable source, which is why it is listed as a deprecated source - and you do not allow the O9A point of view to be expressed. Since the article is about the O9A, the O9A point of view is necessary for balance, for a NPOV, as per Wikipedia guidelines.
The O9A view, as evident in their pre-2011 texts, is not - in the context of the article being about the O9A - a minority view nor an extraordinary claim and thus does not provide a "false balance" but rather a balance to what HnH and others have claimed. In addition, O9A sources and texts are regularly referred in the article. As the guidelines state: "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources
You also seem not to appreciate that the O9A has no members, only those inspired by or supporting O9A philosophy or aspects of it, according to their own understanding of that philosophy, of what is now a sub-culture. A member is a person who has joined a group. Since the O9A is not a group but a philosophy and/or a sub-culture a person cannot "join it". They can only identify with it in their own way. That the article and most of those writing about the O9A do not make or emphasize this distinction implies a lack of understanding of what the O9A is. Which brings mention of the indictment of Ethan Melzer by the US Department of Justice which states that he passed info to the O9A - interestingly described by the DoJ as a "neo-Nazi, anarchist, white supremacist group." Since the O9A has no leader, no HQ, no contact details, no members, it will be interesting to see what evidence they have in regard to whom or to whomsoever he passed information to. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 05:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
The book titled Iron Gates was not written by Ryan Fleming but by the founder of the USA based Tempel ov Blood, Joshua Caleb Sutter. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 05:20, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Northern Moonlight: Wouldn't use in this specific case fall under "administrative subdivisions" and such in WP:INFOBOXFLAG, as we're literally talking about subsections of O9A based on geographical location? I think flags also make the box look cleaner, that said, I don't feel overtly strongly one way or the other. RKT7789 ( talk) 03:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Quutamo123: from WaPo: "Pfc. Shandon Simpson had participated in a white supremacist channel on the Telegram messaging app called RapeWaffen Division, according to the SITE Intelligence Group. The channel’s members have touted the rape of female police officers, posted images with Confederate battle flags and swastikas and called white women who have children with men of other races “traitors.”
More info of Rapewaffen can be found here. RKT7789 ( talk) 16:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
This is neither proof that he is in a "Nexion" nor that he knew the person who planned an attack on their unit, nor that he was apart of the o9a or even knew what it was or was apart of an o9a associated group, him being a neo nazi is despicable enough, if what you're trying to do is lie about him that is defamation, you don't need to write in your own personal headcanon about what terrorist groups a person is apart of on wikipedia because they have extremist political views.-- Quutamo123 ( talk) 16:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
HnH does not identify Rapewaffen as O9A as a nexion and none of what you quoted proves that, in both the quotes you showed me and the entire article, it says that it's a telegram group and not an o9a nexion, it says nothing in the article about Shandon being apart of an o9a nexion, please requote the article in a different place if you're going to try to show me evidence to the contrary. [User:Quutamo123|Quutamo123]] ( talk) 16:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The first search for nexion: "The relatively large channel “RapeWaffen”, which claims to have splintered from AWD, states that its “official beliefs are o9a Satanism and Esoteric Rapistism”, encouraging followers to “JOIN YOUR LOCAL NEXION”." RKT7789 ( talk) 17:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It is not calling itself a nexion, nor is this sufficient proof for Shandon being apart of one or him knowing the soldier who planned an attack on his own unit, nor does this refute the fact that "RapeWaffen" is a telegram channel, which if your apart of one is similar to following a persona on twitter or following someones facebook feed, it is not tantamount to conspiracy, membership, intimacy with a terrorist or terrorist group or religious cult or doctrine as your edit implies. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
No where is rapewaffen described as a group or membership based organization or o9a nexion, your statement implies directly that Shandon is o9a, following a persona on twitter or likewise being apart of a telegram channel ( very similar things if you know how telegram works which you clearly do not) is not membership in a terrorist group or subscribing to a religious doctrine. I never denied the reliability of the sources, you are using them wrong, there is extreme ability to deny the fact the accusation that shandon was apart of the o9a because there is no black swan. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Quutamo123: So you don't dispute he was in Rapewaffen that identifies as O9A group, great, we are in agreement. You denying he identifies as o9a, which cannot really be proven one way or the other and is immaterial. If someone is member of, say, Waffen SS, his personal feelings are irrelevant, he's still in the fuckin SS. RKT7789 ( talk) 17:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Terrible analogy, Rapewaffen is never designated as an o9a group in the source, even if it was there is also zero evidence that Shandon had membership or affiliation with it, this is what I had been in dispute with the entire time actually Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
also not to mention the fact that even if it was somehow an organized o9a group which there is not sufficient evidence for in the article still, and it's something the article does not claim, it is still contentious to say whether this "group" was a nexion or not and there is obviously a bend to call shandon a o9a affiliated terrorist when there is proof to the contrary that rather he was a neo nazi that said stupid shit on a personal group chat with friends. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I do appreciate the added ambiguity to the section edit, this is definitely more accurate, a telegram channel is not really a "chatroom" it's more like a twitter account where there's one way messages that the user reading can't respond to or communicate with but this is definitely more accurate, thank you Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Claims about living people in this section were sourced with a seemingly self-published podcast, which I removed, since claims about living people in self-published sources not stated by the subjects themselves are not to be used on Wikipedia articles. I could potentially be wrong about this, so I am opening this discussion. Dege31 ( talk) 18:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion? The subtopics of "4.2 In Montenegro" and "4.3 The Legion Ave Satan offshoot" feels out of place being under the topic of "4 Terrorism and Crime." Could we create a new subtopic under "3 Organization," called something to the effect of "3.3 Known Nexions & Associates" and then we can move all subentries about ONA nexions, offshoots, and known associates to that subtopic?" SeptaNiner ( talk) 14:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I have been making a draft for an article on the Star game here Draft:Star Game can we have this be separate? Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 23:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
I just… can’t even. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
The Nick Land connection is spurious at best- the linked source is certainly not 'promotion' and there is no serious, sustained philosophical influence either from o9a to Land or vice versa. Seems odd to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.214.62.168 ( talk) 03:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I can smash many rumors on this site. But nineangles.net was mine its down now. Noctuliuswaffen9.wordpress.com is my website there's a split of sorts in o9a Thormynd on one side, Nameless Therein on another and Noctulius Waffen as the new Dreccian way and such. I do know Myatt and others on some level. I was Tempel ov Blood for 10 years and knew Joshua Sutter for that long. I go out of my way here for information purposes and research. I'd be willing to give a phone interview as well and offer proof. terrencerhodes@proton.me is my email. I wish to go by pseudonyms but I am the famous Dark Gnosis no one else is. 142.162.227.2 ( talk) 20:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
i added a failed verification tag to both sources which assert in the infobox that this group is allies with the US group Atomwaffen because each asserts that o9a has influenced atomwaffen but not that the two groups are allies. the only talkpage mention of this is in archive 2 of this talkpage so i presume this hasn't been brought up here before. in any event the two sources are now tagged and if nothing else comes to light soon, i will remove atomwaffen as "allies" with o9a. eventually. .usarnamechoice ( talk) 01:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I found, about a year ago, a forum on which Nick land and reza negarestani shared fascist conspiracy theories and o9a propaganda. Specifically, Nick “highly recommended” Myatt’s work, or the catechism of the o9a in general. I’ve spent a few hours searching for this data and am worried it may have been scrubbed from the internet. Can anyone help me? 83.151.136.26 ( talk) 17:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere that the FBI funded Tempel ov Blood and that Joshua Caleb Sutter was an informant/asset? It had been rumored for over a decade, was confirmed a year ago with a filing in the court case of Kaleb Cole and there are now reliable sources discussing it, some of which are below. One of the most important parts of the whole O9A story and I don't think it's possible to get a non-misleading picture from an article that neglects to mention it. Fundamentally changes how at least ToB, if not the whole O9A, has to be viewed and in a different media environment it would probably be one of the biggest FBI scandals in a decade or more, considering that the literature ToB published was not just neo-Nazi but extremely and graphically pro-pedophilia, rape, cannibalism etc. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/the-satanist-neo-nazi-plot-to-murder-u-s-soldiers-1352629/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/26/fbi-funded-neo-nazi-book-publisher-court-docs-reveal/ https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2022/06/09/fbi-informant-white-supremacist-atomwaffen/7237901001/ ThoroldWest ( talk) 13:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Why has MLO been involved as a 09A-group? The MLO has nothing to do with 09A but was founded by Swedes and works with different traditions and has not the same "goals" as 09A. The Nazis that are involved with 09A like traditions is more likely to be Black Order. 83.253.100.56 ( talk) 19:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
The problem is that those are superficial similarities. Just like O9A reworked Baphomet into a different character then it is in its original form. As for the actual teachings there are differences in rituals and the esoteric meaning of certain words. While both 09A and other groups (including Black Order which actually is the O9A like group that actually has a group in Sweden) are focused on developing a new form of human and the evolution, MLO seeks the destruction of cosmos. Noxaz ( talk) 16:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Do we really have no issue with characterizing Ukrainians as Nazis, with every bit of evidence coming from Russian tabloids and Russian state-owned media, in the middle of a Russian invasion whose pretext was eliminating Nazis? This seems like blatant propaganda, do these sources comply with Wikipedia standards? I feel like this section should be removed unless corroborated by an unbiased source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The band Hvile I Kaos is listed as an o9a band, as mentioned in the 2018 LA Weekly article, but they've since departed and made a point of distancing themselves, not only from the o9a but from anything remotely far right or fascist in nature. They've made multiple statements about this on social media, and even the Quietus article from 2018 documents their departure in a footnote at the bottom of the article. Given the effort they've gone to in order to sever those ties, it seems only fair this article should be updated to accommodate that. Cbrowncello ( talk) 04:00, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The Michael W. Ford link failed because it did not contain his middle initial. It has been added; thus, it is now an up-and-running, valid link. 2600:8800:FF0B:1400:34B4:E955:E1BB:11F9 ( talk) 14:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In my opinion this entire article needs a complete rewrite. As discussed in previous posts, there's no objective evidence or reliable sources that O9A ever existed as a real group, that it was ever anything more than the invention of one man's writing. The wording of the article should be changed to assume, based on what can be assumed within reason, that O9A only "started" in the 1980s (if even that early) and is more or less just a fiction created by David Myatt and propagated by largely unrelated groups of fans on the internet. The myth and mystique that's built up around them over the years is a big farce. 2600:8801:710D:EA00:1415:F860:B955:B995 ( talk) 22:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
The infobox claims this organization as an 'ally', giving in the body of the article a source that claims that a 'purported leader' said that they had taken inspiration from the Order. See, the source says that this person claimed to have taken 'some organizational experiences', which can be quite distinct from an ideological proximity. I think its not accurate to state some kind of 'alliance' between them on this base. JoaquimCebuano ( talk) 04:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
regarding the Terrorism and crimes section, i think its startrd to overbloated in coverage.. I suggest to trim a bit some minor cases, as per WP:N guideline of article.
Remember Wikipedia page is not a news media 139.193.50.17 ( talk) 22:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
@86.28.230.177. The citation of an academic work (a published book by an academic press) regarding the subject in question is not an "irrelevant citation". In fact, vis-a-vis Wikipedia criteria, it ticks all the boxes in respect of being a reliable and verifiable source. I have therefore removed the "irrelevant citation" tag. Coolmoon ( talk) 11:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
@82.16.252.128. Some anonymous blog is not a reliable source according to Wikipedia criteria. Also, terms such as "significant" and "biggest" are not neutral, and thus contravene Wikipedia NPOV. Is the nknews website a reliable source regarding the ONA? IMO, no, since the article referenced does not mention the ONA at all. Therefore I have reverted the edits. But feel free to provide evidence that the nknews website is a reliable source of info re the ONA according to Wikipedia criteria. Coolmoon ( talk) 11:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Removed the weasel-words tag for as stated in the Wikipedia manual of style claims "should be clearly attributed" and "views which are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if they accurately represent the opinions of the source." The expression used - "one of the most extreme Satanist groups in the world" - is attributed to a reliable source in the "beliefs and structure" section and does reflect the view of the person concerned.
According to my understanding what is in the lead section of an article does not need an in-line citation providing a citation is given in the body of the article where the quotation appears in the relevant section. Coolmoon ( talk) 05:33, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
In a recent change to the Wikipedia article is was claimed that "Massimo Introvigne stated that the ONA has more or less acknowledged that Myatt and Long are the same person."
Since this claim has been disputed by the O9A it seems relevant - re presenting a NPOV - to reference their rebuttal to Introvigne's claim, which rebuttal is in the More Academic Inaccuracies section of the article Academia, David Myatt, and the Order of Nine Angles to which I have provided a link. Coolmoon ( talk) 15:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Can anybody here verify Knife Sotelo's claim:
"Sotelo began to pursue other Satanic religious practices and became the Outer Representative of the Order of Nine Anglesand remained its spokesperson until 2013..."
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Knife%22_Sotelo
I'm unaware of he ever being associated with the ONA, let alone being its Outer Rep. LEFT9 ( talk) 21:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
As Midnightblueowl noted in her recent revert of your edit the criteria of Wikipedia is verifiability by reliable published third-party sources such as books, articles, and mainstream newspapers. Were such a source to publish what you mention vis-a-vis the O9A then it could be included in the O9A article. Pavane7 ( talk) 22:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Why delete this reference in the lead as it is referenced later in mainstream media in the article? Pavane7 ( talk) 17:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The source given for the allegations is not a credible source according to Wikipedia criteria. See /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources. Therefore I have reverted the edit. Pavane7 ( talk) 01:38, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted the edit and substituted "associated" in place of "affiliated". For given the nature of the O9A/ONA - as described in the Wikipedia entry, in articles on its omega9alpha blog, and by academics such as Monette - the O9A itself is not affiliated to any group be it "the sinister coven" or any other. Other groups, and individuals, can claim to be associated with or inspired by the O9A and that's all. Examples include Tempel ov Blood in America and Secuntra Nexion in Italy.
Since, to quote Monette, the ONA is "a movement, a subculture or perhaps metaculture that its adherents choose to embody or identify with" it has no central authority, and no leader, and thus there is no one person, or any persons, who can claim to represent or who can claim to speak or write on behalf of the O9A, and who thus can say that the ONA is affiliated with this or that group.
See the article on the O9A blog at https://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/o9a-exoteric-and-esoteric-reality/
I quote from that article: "In practice, this exoteric and esoteric understanding means that, as Anton Long and many others have stated time and time again, no one person, no one O9A nexion, no collocations of O9A nexions, can ever speak or write "on behalf of the O9A" since one of the fundamental principles of O9A philosophy, based on its exoteric and esoteric reality, is what is termed the authority of individual judgment. This principles means that the O9A does not have, never has had, and never will have an "official policy" about anything, and never has, and never will make official statements about anything." Pavane7 ( talk) 06:16, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
I was wondering if the Temple of THEM and the White Star Acception qualify for references in the info box? Dr. George Seig and Dr. Monette mention them in their respective articles Angular Momentum and Chapter 5. The Quietus also did an article on ONA which mentions both of them. Tankumudi ( talk) 23:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Reverted edit. The lead does not require references, they are provided in the following sections: see Senholt (reference #149) and Monette (reference#150) regarding estimates. The context of the statement is broadly associated with the O9A, not actual membership.
In addition, the 1990s claim by Harvey that there are "fewer than five" is ridiculous - and perhaps should be removed from the article - given how many people responded to the poll by Lewis regarding involvement with the O9A, (reference#152) and the fact that recent mainstream media reports - qv. references #160, 161, 162, 163, and other references not included in the article - indicate O9A infiltration of right wing groups such as Atomwaffen, National Action, and Sonnenkrieg Division, with the O9A, as reported by BBC journalist Daniel De Simonet, recently (October 2019) mentioned at a trial of someone accused of terrorism as the “most prominent and recognisable link between Satanism and the extreme right,” https://mobile.twitter.com/DdesimoneDaniel/status/1182394450657628160, and http://www.o9a.org/2019/10/the-terrorism-trial-and-the-o9a/
Thus those broadly associated with the O9A include members of groups such as Atomwaffen, National Action, and Sonnenkrieg Division, as well as some musicians - as mentioned in the 2018 Quietus article about O9A entryism in the Black metal music scene, and so on. Pavane7 ( talk) 17:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted the edit since according to /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources BBC News is a reliable source. The ban was also reported in the New Statesman - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/03/nazi-satanist-cult-fuelling-far-right-terrorist-groups-overlooked-uk-authorities-order-nine-angles and the Times of Israel at https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/calls-for-neo-nazi-satanist-group-to-be-banned-as-terrorist-organisation/
It is note worthy that the ban is supported by several members of the British parliament including Yvette Cooper and Louise Haigh - Member of Parliament for Sheffield Heeley and Shadow Policing & Crime Minister - both of whom are mentioned in the New Statesman. Haigh issued a statement that said "the government must move to proscribe the Order of Nine Angles as a terror group. Their beliefs and tactics are horrific and they pose the most extreme danger imaginable". Pavane7 ( talk) 10:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
I reverted certain edits since the political advocacy group "Hope not hate" is listed in /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources as unreliable and biased it does not seem appropriate - re NPOV - to extensively quote from their literature or statements by their spokespeople, especially as the O9A has issued rebuttals to many of their accusations: see for example https://omega9alpha.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/o9a-truth-and-propaganda/ Pavane7 ( talk) 09:35, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
To say that "extremist organizations generally do not get the benefit of the doubt" in Wikipedia, of having their side heard, is IMO against presenting a NPOV since who defines what is "extremist" and why? To present the O9A rebuttal of non-probative (prejudicial) allegations made by a political advocacy group is IMO presenting a NPOV.
What you seem to be saying is that in, respect of Wikipedia, groups or people you and some others deem to be "extremist" should not be treated in a neutral manner, and that such groups or people should not be allowed to present their rebuttal to non-probative allegations. In other words, and again IMO, it is akin to a criminal trial in which the prosecution makes allegations while the defense is not allowed to produce evidence which challenges such accusations.
You wrote: "several articles by BBC and others back the statements made by Hope not Hate." No, they do not "back the statements", they just repeat the non-probative allegations made by a political advocacy group, as do all the references you gave.
Also there is nothing probative to prove that Richard Moult was a "leader" of the O9A. Pavane7 ( talk) 17:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
[1] -- Ghettobuoy ( talk) 00:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to sexual abuse as this in my opinion is not mentioned in any O9A material dating from 1976 to 2020 and which material includes the Deofel Quartet, Naos, Hostia, Black Book, and recent works such as Feond. It was and is a non-evidential claim made by various antifascist groups. There are several O9A texts which describe sexual abusers as suitable candidates for what the O9A term culling. This is mentioned in several replies published in rebuttal of allegations made by a particular anti-fascist group, one of which is titled Exposing Twelve Basic Errors, Or, How To Spread Fake News.
To me, such an addition does not present a NPOV.
The fact that some individuals who associate themselves with the O9A may have promoted such a thing does not means the esoteric philosophy of the O9A promotes or condones it especially as, technically, the O9A is such a philosophy and not a group with members and never has had a leader. One might as well condemn the whole Catholic Church on the basis that some of its adherents have committed sexual abuse.
Further, no one can contact the O9A as it has no contact information and no spokesperson just as a philosophy has no contact information and no spokesperson. The nature of the O9A is explained in the text titled Beyond Nihilism and Anarchy: The O9A. The fact is that most if not all O9A critics do not bother to read such works as that one, and works such as Feond, and Baeldraca, and Tyberness, which present O9A philosophy and give copious references to O9A texts. If they do read such texts they would get a more balanced view of the O9A. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 09:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
You et al are reproducing allegations made by an anti-fascist group who supply no evidence from established O9A texts such as Naos, Hostia, the Deofel Quartet, and books such as Feond.
The press and other reports you linked to merely repeat the unproven allegations and make no mention of O9A texts such as the above. Even the report in Hansard shows that MP's are merely repeating such unproven allegations.
If you or anyone can find in established published O9A texts any proof for the allegations then I will withdraw my objections. Have you read, for instance, Feond, and Baeldraca, and Tyberness? If not why not? Have you read the pro-Lesbian O9A novel Breaking The Silence Down, published decades ago? Are you aware of the O9A Code of Kindred Honor which enshrines gender equality?
Until there is evidence - not merely rumors and allegations - it is against, IMO, the NPOV to state that the O9A is supporting the criminal activity of sexual assault.
That a few of the supporters of the O9A might be involved in such activities is far enough, but to extrapolate from a few such supporters to castigate O9A philosophy itself is a logical fallacy, just as castigating the whole Catholic church for the aberrant behavior of some of its adherents is illogical. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 09:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The dispute is about NPOV. You give prominence to unproven allegations and do not give the O9A denial, which is against NPOV. So, I have included a new section titled Sexual Abuse which includes all your references and provides a reference to the O9A response. This IMO restores a NPOV while having mention of such unproven allegations in the info-box does not in my opinion present a NPOV.
Also you fail to mention that those who support or are influenced by the O9A are not the O9A which is an esoteric philosophy not a group. In addition you repeat the unproven allegation that Myatt is a Satanist, something he has always denied and for which there is no actual evidence. See for example https://davidmyatt.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/a-matter-of-honour.pdf -- Pavane7 ( talk) 06:44, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
In my opinion there are three issues here.
1. NPOV. Where there is a conflict describe both points of view and work for balance. Giving prominence - as in the info box - to one point of view (accusations made and repeated with no reference to primary O9A sources) does not present a NPOV.
No one has presented any evidence from primary O9A sources - such as the 1970s and 1990s texts Naos, Hostia, and the Deofel Quartet, and from Breaking The Silence Down, and the O9A Code of Kindred Honor - that the O9A condones and encourages sexual abuse. Quite the contrary, as the pro-Lesbian novel Breaking The Silence Down and the female characters in the Deofel Quartet reveal.
It seems that those making and repeating the accusations have not bothered to read such primary O9A texts. The fact that the accusations made against the O9A do not provide any evidence from such texts needs mentioning.
Which brings us to the second point.
2. Membership. Since the O9A is an anarchist philosophy it cannot have members - only those who associate with some or all of that philosophy or who are inspired by it and who may form their own nexions. The anarchist nature of the O9A was made clear as early as the 1990s in letters sent to people such as Aquino of the Temple of Set; letters published in 1992 in the two volumes titled The Satanic Letters Of Stephen Brown. Those letters are primary sources in respect of the O9A and are quoted from in texts such as https://wyrdsister.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/o9a-nihilism-anarchy.pdf
Again, such primary O9A sources seem to have been ignored. How can an esoteric philosophy - anarchist in nature - be banned?
Also, what someone or some group associating themselves with or influenced by the O9A believe or propagate does not mean that they represent the O9A, no more than Catholic priests or monks who abuse children represent the world-wide Catholic church.
3. Neo-Nazism. As a study of basic O9A texts would have revealed the O9A praises Hitler and the Third Reich because to do so is antinomian - a modern heresy; with joining and supporting neo-nazi groups just one Insight Role among many and which last at most eighteen months after which the individual moves on to other things such as spending three or more months living alone in the wilderness. See such texts as the aforementioned The O9A: Beyond Nihilism And Anarchism, and text such as the 300 page http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-trilogy-print.pdf
Thus, this and my others posts here are not an attempt to whitewash the O9A but to understand it on the basis of its primary texts, beyond the unproven accusations of those with a particular political agenda.
in view of this, I have removed mentioned of unproven sexual abuse allegations from the info-box as it is covered in the Sexual Abuse section. If anyone can show that, according to primary O9A sources, that O9A philosophy condones and encourages such abuse then I will admit my error. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 19:51, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
cannot have membersand simultaneously claim people who
associating themselves withthe movement
does not mean that they represent the O9A. Especially while you above talk about
primary O9A sources. If no one is a member, then who determines which sources are real O9A ones?
As a study of basic O9A texts would have revealed the O9A praises Hitler and the Third Reich because to do so is antinomian - a modern heresy; with joining and supporting neo-nazi groups just one Insight Role among many
If anyone can show that, according to primary O9A sources
Since the O9A is not a group with members but an esoteric philosophy and has no central authority and no contact details there are and can be no members, only those who support or are inspired by that philosophy, which is outlined in primary O9A sources such as Naos, Feond, and The Deofel Quartet.
As for the book The Dreccian Way it is a compilation of articles by various authors, with Moult having denied writing one article which had his name attached. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 06:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If you read primary O9A texts - and not what others have written about the O9A - you will see that the O9A has no "inner circle" which term is a supposition by others. The recent 300 page text the Seofonfeald Paeth explains the matter, http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-trilogy-print.pdf
See also the text The O9A: Beyond Nihilism And Anarchism, which quotes from 1990s O9A texts such as The Satanic Letters Of Stephen Brown, some of which letters were sent to Aquino of the Temple of Set, and which include his replies. http://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/o9a-nihilism-anarchy.pdf
The problem here, as often, is separating the actual O9A - as evident in their primary texts - from what others, including some of its supporters, have written or assumed about it. It seems few commentators and fewer supporters have taken the trouble the read the entire O9A corpus. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 04:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
In reply to RKT7789. You rely heavily on the accusations of HnH - which being a group with a political agenda is not always a reliable source, which is why it is listed as a deprecated source - and you do not allow the O9A point of view to be expressed. Since the article is about the O9A, the O9A point of view is necessary for balance, for a NPOV, as per Wikipedia guidelines.
The O9A view, as evident in their pre-2011 texts, is not - in the context of the article being about the O9A - a minority view nor an extraordinary claim and thus does not provide a "false balance" but rather a balance to what HnH and others have claimed. In addition, O9A sources and texts are regularly referred in the article. As the guidelines state: "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources
You also seem not to appreciate that the O9A has no members, only those inspired by or supporting O9A philosophy or aspects of it, according to their own understanding of that philosophy, of what is now a sub-culture. A member is a person who has joined a group. Since the O9A is not a group but a philosophy and/or a sub-culture a person cannot "join it". They can only identify with it in their own way. That the article and most of those writing about the O9A do not make or emphasize this distinction implies a lack of understanding of what the O9A is. Which brings mention of the indictment of Ethan Melzer by the US Department of Justice which states that he passed info to the O9A - interestingly described by the DoJ as a "neo-Nazi, anarchist, white supremacist group." Since the O9A has no leader, no HQ, no contact details, no members, it will be interesting to see what evidence they have in regard to whom or to whomsoever he passed information to. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 05:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
The book titled Iron Gates was not written by Ryan Fleming but by the founder of the USA based Tempel ov Blood, Joshua Caleb Sutter. -- Pavane7 ( talk) 05:20, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Northern Moonlight: Wouldn't use in this specific case fall under "administrative subdivisions" and such in WP:INFOBOXFLAG, as we're literally talking about subsections of O9A based on geographical location? I think flags also make the box look cleaner, that said, I don't feel overtly strongly one way or the other. RKT7789 ( talk) 03:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Quutamo123: from WaPo: "Pfc. Shandon Simpson had participated in a white supremacist channel on the Telegram messaging app called RapeWaffen Division, according to the SITE Intelligence Group. The channel’s members have touted the rape of female police officers, posted images with Confederate battle flags and swastikas and called white women who have children with men of other races “traitors.”
More info of Rapewaffen can be found here. RKT7789 ( talk) 16:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
This is neither proof that he is in a "Nexion" nor that he knew the person who planned an attack on their unit, nor that he was apart of the o9a or even knew what it was or was apart of an o9a associated group, him being a neo nazi is despicable enough, if what you're trying to do is lie about him that is defamation, you don't need to write in your own personal headcanon about what terrorist groups a person is apart of on wikipedia because they have extremist political views.-- Quutamo123 ( talk) 16:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
HnH does not identify Rapewaffen as O9A as a nexion and none of what you quoted proves that, in both the quotes you showed me and the entire article, it says that it's a telegram group and not an o9a nexion, it says nothing in the article about Shandon being apart of an o9a nexion, please requote the article in a different place if you're going to try to show me evidence to the contrary. [User:Quutamo123|Quutamo123]] ( talk) 16:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The first search for nexion: "The relatively large channel “RapeWaffen”, which claims to have splintered from AWD, states that its “official beliefs are o9a Satanism and Esoteric Rapistism”, encouraging followers to “JOIN YOUR LOCAL NEXION”." RKT7789 ( talk) 17:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It is not calling itself a nexion, nor is this sufficient proof for Shandon being apart of one or him knowing the soldier who planned an attack on his own unit, nor does this refute the fact that "RapeWaffen" is a telegram channel, which if your apart of one is similar to following a persona on twitter or following someones facebook feed, it is not tantamount to conspiracy, membership, intimacy with a terrorist or terrorist group or religious cult or doctrine as your edit implies. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
No where is rapewaffen described as a group or membership based organization or o9a nexion, your statement implies directly that Shandon is o9a, following a persona on twitter or likewise being apart of a telegram channel ( very similar things if you know how telegram works which you clearly do not) is not membership in a terrorist group or subscribing to a religious doctrine. I never denied the reliability of the sources, you are using them wrong, there is extreme ability to deny the fact the accusation that shandon was apart of the o9a because there is no black swan. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:24, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Quutamo123: So you don't dispute he was in Rapewaffen that identifies as O9A group, great, we are in agreement. You denying he identifies as o9a, which cannot really be proven one way or the other and is immaterial. If someone is member of, say, Waffen SS, his personal feelings are irrelevant, he's still in the fuckin SS. RKT7789 ( talk) 17:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Terrible analogy, Rapewaffen is never designated as an o9a group in the source, even if it was there is also zero evidence that Shandon had membership or affiliation with it, this is what I had been in dispute with the entire time actually Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
also not to mention the fact that even if it was somehow an organized o9a group which there is not sufficient evidence for in the article still, and it's something the article does not claim, it is still contentious to say whether this "group" was a nexion or not and there is obviously a bend to call shandon a o9a affiliated terrorist when there is proof to the contrary that rather he was a neo nazi that said stupid shit on a personal group chat with friends. Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I do appreciate the added ambiguity to the section edit, this is definitely more accurate, a telegram channel is not really a "chatroom" it's more like a twitter account where there's one way messages that the user reading can't respond to or communicate with but this is definitely more accurate, thank you Quutamo123 ( talk) 17:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Claims about living people in this section were sourced with a seemingly self-published podcast, which I removed, since claims about living people in self-published sources not stated by the subjects themselves are not to be used on Wikipedia articles. I could potentially be wrong about this, so I am opening this discussion. Dege31 ( talk) 18:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion? The subtopics of "4.2 In Montenegro" and "4.3 The Legion Ave Satan offshoot" feels out of place being under the topic of "4 Terrorism and Crime." Could we create a new subtopic under "3 Organization," called something to the effect of "3.3 Known Nexions & Associates" and then we can move all subentries about ONA nexions, offshoots, and known associates to that subtopic?" SeptaNiner ( talk) 14:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I have been making a draft for an article on the Star game here Draft:Star Game can we have this be separate? Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 23:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
I just… can’t even. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
The Nick Land connection is spurious at best- the linked source is certainly not 'promotion' and there is no serious, sustained philosophical influence either from o9a to Land or vice versa. Seems odd to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.214.62.168 ( talk) 03:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I can smash many rumors on this site. But nineangles.net was mine its down now. Noctuliuswaffen9.wordpress.com is my website there's a split of sorts in o9a Thormynd on one side, Nameless Therein on another and Noctulius Waffen as the new Dreccian way and such. I do know Myatt and others on some level. I was Tempel ov Blood for 10 years and knew Joshua Sutter for that long. I go out of my way here for information purposes and research. I'd be willing to give a phone interview as well and offer proof. terrencerhodes@proton.me is my email. I wish to go by pseudonyms but I am the famous Dark Gnosis no one else is. 142.162.227.2 ( talk) 20:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
i added a failed verification tag to both sources which assert in the infobox that this group is allies with the US group Atomwaffen because each asserts that o9a has influenced atomwaffen but not that the two groups are allies. the only talkpage mention of this is in archive 2 of this talkpage so i presume this hasn't been brought up here before. in any event the two sources are now tagged and if nothing else comes to light soon, i will remove atomwaffen as "allies" with o9a. eventually. .usarnamechoice ( talk) 01:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I found, about a year ago, a forum on which Nick land and reza negarestani shared fascist conspiracy theories and o9a propaganda. Specifically, Nick “highly recommended” Myatt’s work, or the catechism of the o9a in general. I’ve spent a few hours searching for this data and am worried it may have been scrubbed from the internet. Can anyone help me? 83.151.136.26 ( talk) 17:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere that the FBI funded Tempel ov Blood and that Joshua Caleb Sutter was an informant/asset? It had been rumored for over a decade, was confirmed a year ago with a filing in the court case of Kaleb Cole and there are now reliable sources discussing it, some of which are below. One of the most important parts of the whole O9A story and I don't think it's possible to get a non-misleading picture from an article that neglects to mention it. Fundamentally changes how at least ToB, if not the whole O9A, has to be viewed and in a different media environment it would probably be one of the biggest FBI scandals in a decade or more, considering that the literature ToB published was not just neo-Nazi but extremely and graphically pro-pedophilia, rape, cannibalism etc. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/the-satanist-neo-nazi-plot-to-murder-u-s-soldiers-1352629/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/26/fbi-funded-neo-nazi-book-publisher-court-docs-reveal/ https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2022/06/09/fbi-informant-white-supremacist-atomwaffen/7237901001/ ThoroldWest ( talk) 13:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Why has MLO been involved as a 09A-group? The MLO has nothing to do with 09A but was founded by Swedes and works with different traditions and has not the same "goals" as 09A. The Nazis that are involved with 09A like traditions is more likely to be Black Order. 83.253.100.56 ( talk) 19:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
The problem is that those are superficial similarities. Just like O9A reworked Baphomet into a different character then it is in its original form. As for the actual teachings there are differences in rituals and the esoteric meaning of certain words. While both 09A and other groups (including Black Order which actually is the O9A like group that actually has a group in Sweden) are focused on developing a new form of human and the evolution, MLO seeks the destruction of cosmos. Noxaz ( talk) 16:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Do we really have no issue with characterizing Ukrainians as Nazis, with every bit of evidence coming from Russian tabloids and Russian state-owned media, in the middle of a Russian invasion whose pretext was eliminating Nazis? This seems like blatant propaganda, do these sources comply with Wikipedia standards? I feel like this section should be removed unless corroborated by an unbiased source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The band Hvile I Kaos is listed as an o9a band, as mentioned in the 2018 LA Weekly article, but they've since departed and made a point of distancing themselves, not only from the o9a but from anything remotely far right or fascist in nature. They've made multiple statements about this on social media, and even the Quietus article from 2018 documents their departure in a footnote at the bottom of the article. Given the effort they've gone to in order to sever those ties, it seems only fair this article should be updated to accommodate that. Cbrowncello ( talk) 04:00, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The Michael W. Ford link failed because it did not contain his middle initial. It has been added; thus, it is now an up-and-running, valid link. 2600:8800:FF0B:1400:34B4:E955:E1BB:11F9 ( talk) 14:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In my opinion this entire article needs a complete rewrite. As discussed in previous posts, there's no objective evidence or reliable sources that O9A ever existed as a real group, that it was ever anything more than the invention of one man's writing. The wording of the article should be changed to assume, based on what can be assumed within reason, that O9A only "started" in the 1980s (if even that early) and is more or less just a fiction created by David Myatt and propagated by largely unrelated groups of fans on the internet. The myth and mystique that's built up around them over the years is a big farce. 2600:8801:710D:EA00:1415:F860:B955:B995 ( talk) 22:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
The infobox claims this organization as an 'ally', giving in the body of the article a source that claims that a 'purported leader' said that they had taken inspiration from the Order. See, the source says that this person claimed to have taken 'some organizational experiences', which can be quite distinct from an ideological proximity. I think its not accurate to state some kind of 'alliance' between them on this base. JoaquimCebuano ( talk) 04:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
regarding the Terrorism and crimes section, i think its startrd to overbloated in coverage.. I suggest to trim a bit some minor cases, as per WP:N guideline of article.
Remember Wikipedia page is not a news media 139.193.50.17 ( talk) 22:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)