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Recent edit of article on Orde Wingate are based on first hand conversations and testimony Orde had with my father who served with Orde in the Sudan Defence Force.
For historical record this does need to be recorded and mentioned if and until anyone disputes these facts.
This violates WP:OR, which is in place to ensure verifiability of material in Wikipedia. -- Yaush ( talk) 23:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Please be specific and list in what way does it violate what you mention.
The remnants of the Gideon Force were later transferred to Field Marshall Montgomery's 8th Army and fought during the campaign in the Western Desert in North Africa. Some of the members of the Gideon Force later became known as the Jewish Brigade. -- Pop goes the we (please remember to sign your posts using ~~~~)
Please explain what is wrong with this change :
'''''....Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Sudan and Burma during World War II. Also known as the father of modern guerrilla warfare, his early ideas on guerrilla warfare using special forces behind enemy lines are what later became inspiration for the foundation of the SAS ( Special Air Service ). He was a successful military strategist and an expert in military tactics. ''''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we ( talk • contribs) 11:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Please explain what is wrong with this change :
''Military HQ Cairo, invited him to Sudan to begin operations against Italian occupation forces in Ethiopia. It is unclear if Wingate met Col David Stirling (who was to later form the Special Air Service ) in Cairo at that same time. Bold text'''Italic text — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we ( talk • contribs) 11:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I did not mean to shout it is just I wanted to highlight the changes I made Pop goes the we ( talk) 12:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC). Please let me know if you think these changes are OK? Pop goes the we ( talk) 12:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
My understanding is that Wiki is to collect all known knowledge. Some may be undocumented and some may be novel, new and unpublished. The information I supplied was held by an individual who was present during the time described. It is probably new and unpublished material but it is still significant and adds knowledge to the article. It it stands the test of time it should be published and if authenticity is disputed in future it should be removed. I do not see why we cannot publish new material in Wiki? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we (talk • contribs) 19:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Pop goes the we ( talk) 21:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
To take these points in turn:
HLGallon ( talk) 23:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree on this point.
If it is not Wikipedia then someone else needs to document all this knowledge which is vastly more then all knowledge that has ever been published and publish it. If it is inaccurate then it will be disputed and can be removed. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually there is a comment currently saying that the intro to this article is deficient. Pop actually provided a good intro by showing why Orde is a briiiant British Army officer as the intro currently states. Otherwise the intro does not provide any referenece to who and why considered Orde a brilliant British Army officer not does it justifiy it. Pop's comment does.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.29.243 ( talk) 22:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I hope you guys approve. Pop goes the we ( talk) 09:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The article originally said Wingate was a brilliant British Army Officer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.101.83 ( talk) 21:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Wingate was a successful Army officer (see book "Orde Wingate: A Man of Genius 1903-1944" by Trevor Royle). He was successful in the Abyssinia campaign and in Burma. "He also trained in the art of guerrilla warfare in the Sudan and the Abyssinia campaign many from the Yishuv, and the Haganah. Many of those he trained became heads of the Palmach and, later, the Israel Defense Forces (see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/wingate.html). Many of Orde Wingate's Jewish troops in the Sudan went on to form the Jewish Brigade which fought in North Africa with Field Marshall Montgomery's 8th Army and then to Italy.
Historically to that end many of the original founding fathers of the IDF regarded Wingate at that time as one of the fathers of the IDF and owned him a debt of gratitude. In the early years of the IDF new recruits were trained using Orde Wingate's methods.
Among the officer Corps of the British Army many, to this day, regard Wingate with contempt and blame him for the bombing by Haganah of the British Military HQ in Jerusalem at the King David Hotel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 07:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
There is a mystery surrounding Wingate's death. Wingate was supposed killed in a plane crash in 1944 in Burma. A confidential investigation at that time speculated that the crash was not an accident. Some claim Wingate was never on the plane and the bodies were too charred to be identified.
That is why Wingate and none of Wingate's men from the Sudan Defence Force ever received any official recognition for their bravery in the Abyssinia campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 07:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
The whole story of Wingate would make a great Hollywood movie.
Hang on in there - the original accepted and approved version said Orde Wingate was and I quote "...a brilliant British Army officer" and that was only changed when I question it. There is no dispute that Wingate was a successful Army officer by the fact that he won lots of honours for his service in the successful campaign to rid the Italian Army from East Africa and the Japanese Army from Burma. A man who won the DSO three times and with two bar and is Mentioned in Dispatches must be a successful Army officer. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Point taken will provide page numbers. Simon Anglim's work is based on his research papers for Aberyswith University for his PHD thesis. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The article on the Gideon Force states "The Gideon Force was officially disbanded June 1, 1941. Wingate returned to Egypt".
Col David Stirling founder of the SAS was in Cairo at that time. I wonder if he and Orde Wingate ever meet in Cairo and if Wingate passed on his ideas about special forces and guerrilla warfare to Stirling who later formed the SAS ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 08:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
According to Donovan Webster's Book 'The Burma Road', if I remember correctly, it was stated that Wingate actually died from impulsively drinking water out of a potted plant when he was thirsty, and the complications that occurred, and not from the plane crash. Webster in general is critical of the Chindit operation from a cost-effectiveness standpoint.
Apologies if I'm not remembering this book properly.
Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/Burma-Road-Story-China-Burma-India-Theater/dp/0060746386/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377179584&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Burma+Road 198.181.11.139 ( talk) 13:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
If I get a chance I'll try to look at the book again, maybe he just got really sick from the incident. It is more likely I messed up than Webster did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.181.11.139 ( talk) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, sorry, I found the citation, page 186 from the book. It was the explanation of why Wingate didn't personally participate in the Chindit operation, he got sick from the incident. Webster's derisiion is palpable.
Here is the quote (page 186, last paragraph: 'But against the success of the invasion, there were problems. And the one taking first priority was getting all twelve thousand Chindits inserted into Burma. Inside Wingate's Circus,the problems began with Wingate himself. Several months earlier - during a witheringly hot stop in Castel Benito, Libya, while on his trip back from the Quadrant Conference - Wingate had grown impatient while waiting for the airfield's canteen to open. In a lapse of judgement that was characteristically Wingate, the newly promoted major general had thrown some flowers out of a vase and consumed the container's water. A few weeks later, safely back in India, he was hospitalized with a life-threatening case of typhoid. By early May, while back on his feet, Wingate's strength, stamina, and ability to command with his usual enthusiasm were profoundly compromised. He was skinny and weak. He was tired. And his eyes, which always burned blue beneath his prominant brow, were now so lifeless and sunken that they appeared to be nothing more than black holes in his head.' 24.184.103.88 ( talk) 02:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Their religious affiliations and courtship are discussed, but neither is given a name. Fatidiot1234 ( talk) 02:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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Recent edit of article on Orde Wingate are based on first hand conversations and testimony Orde had with my father who served with Orde in the Sudan Defence Force.
For historical record this does need to be recorded and mentioned if and until anyone disputes these facts.
This violates WP:OR, which is in place to ensure verifiability of material in Wikipedia. -- Yaush ( talk) 23:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Please be specific and list in what way does it violate what you mention.
The remnants of the Gideon Force were later transferred to Field Marshall Montgomery's 8th Army and fought during the campaign in the Western Desert in North Africa. Some of the members of the Gideon Force later became known as the Jewish Brigade. -- Pop goes the we (please remember to sign your posts using ~~~~)
Please explain what is wrong with this change :
'''''....Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Sudan and Burma during World War II. Also known as the father of modern guerrilla warfare, his early ideas on guerrilla warfare using special forces behind enemy lines are what later became inspiration for the foundation of the SAS ( Special Air Service ). He was a successful military strategist and an expert in military tactics. ''''' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we ( talk • contribs) 11:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Please explain what is wrong with this change :
''Military HQ Cairo, invited him to Sudan to begin operations against Italian occupation forces in Ethiopia. It is unclear if Wingate met Col David Stirling (who was to later form the Special Air Service ) in Cairo at that same time. Bold text'''Italic text — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we ( talk • contribs) 11:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I did not mean to shout it is just I wanted to highlight the changes I made Pop goes the we ( talk) 12:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC). Please let me know if you think these changes are OK? Pop goes the we ( talk) 12:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
My understanding is that Wiki is to collect all known knowledge. Some may be undocumented and some may be novel, new and unpublished. The information I supplied was held by an individual who was present during the time described. It is probably new and unpublished material but it is still significant and adds knowledge to the article. It it stands the test of time it should be published and if authenticity is disputed in future it should be removed. I do not see why we cannot publish new material in Wiki? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pop goes the we (talk • contribs) 19:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Pop goes the we ( talk) 21:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
To take these points in turn:
HLGallon ( talk) 23:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree on this point.
If it is not Wikipedia then someone else needs to document all this knowledge which is vastly more then all knowledge that has ever been published and publish it. If it is inaccurate then it will be disputed and can be removed. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually there is a comment currently saying that the intro to this article is deficient. Pop actually provided a good intro by showing why Orde is a briiiant British Army officer as the intro currently states. Otherwise the intro does not provide any referenece to who and why considered Orde a brilliant British Army officer not does it justifiy it. Pop's comment does.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.29.243 ( talk) 22:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I hope you guys approve. Pop goes the we ( talk) 09:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The article originally said Wingate was a brilliant British Army Officer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.101.83 ( talk) 21:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Wingate was a successful Army officer (see book "Orde Wingate: A Man of Genius 1903-1944" by Trevor Royle). He was successful in the Abyssinia campaign and in Burma. "He also trained in the art of guerrilla warfare in the Sudan and the Abyssinia campaign many from the Yishuv, and the Haganah. Many of those he trained became heads of the Palmach and, later, the Israel Defense Forces (see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/wingate.html). Many of Orde Wingate's Jewish troops in the Sudan went on to form the Jewish Brigade which fought in North Africa with Field Marshall Montgomery's 8th Army and then to Italy.
Historically to that end many of the original founding fathers of the IDF regarded Wingate at that time as one of the fathers of the IDF and owned him a debt of gratitude. In the early years of the IDF new recruits were trained using Orde Wingate's methods.
Among the officer Corps of the British Army many, to this day, regard Wingate with contempt and blame him for the bombing by Haganah of the British Military HQ in Jerusalem at the King David Hotel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 07:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
There is a mystery surrounding Wingate's death. Wingate was supposed killed in a plane crash in 1944 in Burma. A confidential investigation at that time speculated that the crash was not an accident. Some claim Wingate was never on the plane and the bodies were too charred to be identified.
That is why Wingate and none of Wingate's men from the Sudan Defence Force ever received any official recognition for their bravery in the Abyssinia campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 07:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
The whole story of Wingate would make a great Hollywood movie.
Hang on in there - the original accepted and approved version said Orde Wingate was and I quote "...a brilliant British Army officer" and that was only changed when I question it. There is no dispute that Wingate was a successful Army officer by the fact that he won lots of honours for his service in the successful campaign to rid the Italian Army from East Africa and the Japanese Army from Burma. A man who won the DSO three times and with two bar and is Mentioned in Dispatches must be a successful Army officer. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Point taken will provide page numbers. Simon Anglim's work is based on his research papers for Aberyswith University for his PHD thesis. Pop goes the we ( talk) 08:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The article on the Gideon Force states "The Gideon Force was officially disbanded June 1, 1941. Wingate returned to Egypt".
Col David Stirling founder of the SAS was in Cairo at that time. I wonder if he and Orde Wingate ever meet in Cairo and if Wingate passed on his ideas about special forces and guerrilla warfare to Stirling who later formed the SAS ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.165.20 ( talk) 08:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
According to Donovan Webster's Book 'The Burma Road', if I remember correctly, it was stated that Wingate actually died from impulsively drinking water out of a potted plant when he was thirsty, and the complications that occurred, and not from the plane crash. Webster in general is critical of the Chindit operation from a cost-effectiveness standpoint.
Apologies if I'm not remembering this book properly.
Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/Burma-Road-Story-China-Burma-India-Theater/dp/0060746386/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377179584&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Burma+Road 198.181.11.139 ( talk) 13:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
If I get a chance I'll try to look at the book again, maybe he just got really sick from the incident. It is more likely I messed up than Webster did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.181.11.139 ( talk) 21:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, sorry, I found the citation, page 186 from the book. It was the explanation of why Wingate didn't personally participate in the Chindit operation, he got sick from the incident. Webster's derisiion is palpable.
Here is the quote (page 186, last paragraph: 'But against the success of the invasion, there were problems. And the one taking first priority was getting all twelve thousand Chindits inserted into Burma. Inside Wingate's Circus,the problems began with Wingate himself. Several months earlier - during a witheringly hot stop in Castel Benito, Libya, while on his trip back from the Quadrant Conference - Wingate had grown impatient while waiting for the airfield's canteen to open. In a lapse of judgement that was characteristically Wingate, the newly promoted major general had thrown some flowers out of a vase and consumed the container's water. A few weeks later, safely back in India, he was hospitalized with a life-threatening case of typhoid. By early May, while back on his feet, Wingate's strength, stamina, and ability to command with his usual enthusiasm were profoundly compromised. He was skinny and weak. He was tired. And his eyes, which always burned blue beneath his prominant brow, were now so lifeless and sunken that they appeared to be nothing more than black holes in his head.' 24.184.103.88 ( talk) 02:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Their religious affiliations and courtship are discussed, but neither is given a name. Fatidiot1234 ( talk) 02:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Orde Wingate. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:11, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Orde Wingate. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)