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@
SONORAMA: The claim you've removed is supported by a
reliable source: the Guardian. Also, its one of the only mentions in the lead at the moment of the key fact that this town is not generally open to black folks. There is no reason to doubt that, given how many sources describe this town as for whites only.
CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓17:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
User:CaptainEek. The quote in question is: "Although Orania, in accordance with South Africa's constitution, has no formal law banning black visitors, in practice only Afrikaner residents are permitted; black people nearby fear they will be met with violence if they were to visit." My italics added. The text confuses visitors (of which there are lots of examples of non-whites visiting Orania) with residents (Orania currently has no non-white residents). I'd suggest making it clear that people of all races can and do visit Orania, but at present only white Afrikaners live there. I further suggest that this kind of down-in-the-weeds about outsiders perceptions of being met with violence versus the reality that they aren't might best be placed in the section on external reception, rather than in the lead. For that matter, there is simply no indication that Orania uses intimidation to keep people out; to the contrary, they seem eager to welcome visitors, although residency is restricted to Afrikaners who share their values. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
SONORAMA (
talk •
contribs)
19:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The fact that English-speaking whites aren't allowed to live in Orania either is probably how they get away with their exclusive policies without being considered "racist."
TOttenville8 (
talk)
17:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)reply
There are actually english speaking people on the town. I met a few Rhodesians and a scotsman. The town officials said that both Scots and Rhodesian cultures are close enough to Afrikaans culture and that they share a history. Personally the mental gymnastics these Oraniers are pulling is quite off pitting.
196.210.58.144 (
talk)
06:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)reply
There is a German couple as well as a couple from New Zealand living there. You say it is mental gymnastics, but after having spoken to a Mr. Ferreira, a panelist on the residency council, he said they tried to catch them out by asking if they speak Afrikaans, which schools their kids go to, how religious etc. they are and they passed. The kids went to Afrikaans schools. And they spoke with thick accents but made great effort in learning Afrikaans.
Jan200203 (
talk)
22:31, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
No, it'd be unnecessary disambiguation. We don't put Child Okeford, United Kingdom or Cuiabá, Brazil - if people are searching for Orania, they will only mean the South African settlement as there is no other Orania.
Couruu (
talk)
16:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
First sentence of the lead
A
2022 RFC determined that the first sentence of the lead should read a white separatist town founded by Afrikaners. Changing it from that would require another RFC (which I think would be unlikely to produce a different result, since that description is extensively sourced to high-quality sources.) --
Aquillion (
talk)
01:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think that both options are fine. "White separatist" and "Afrikaner nationalist/only" are both technically correct as far as I can tell
Chujovas (
talk)
22:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Appreciate that you didn't revert my edit. I just find "Afrikaner nationalist" to be more appropriate. White separatist just sounds a bit misleading, Orania is specifically an Afrikaans community. I don't think an anglo would be allowed to live in Orania. I also don't think someone like Joost Strydom, for instance would say "we are a separatist town". Orania isn't necessarily trying to literally gain independence from South Africa, they're just attempting a strangely independent, self-sufficient community.
The term "white separatist" is misleading and technically incorrect:
a) Orania is an Afrikaner-only town. Not a whites-only town. If it was a whites only town they would be open to whites from England or America moving there, they are not.
b) Afrikaners are not white. DNA analysis clearly shows that they have African and Asian ancestry.
c) They do not describe themselves as white, but as Afrikaners or Boers. Respecting how people self-identify is important.
d) "White separatist" is a loaded word, it could even considered a slur with very negative connotations. Wikipedia does not condone dehumanizing language to describe vulnerable minorities.
Johnmars3 (
talk)
07:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I broadly agree with you, and for the purposes of this discussion, we're on the same side. However, the Afrikaners ARE white, maybe not 100%, but by your logic the average
"white" American wouldn't even be white. I agree with you on everything else though.
Roosterchz (
talk)
15:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
"White" has become a meaningless metric. For example the US government classify Middle Easterners and North Africans as "white". However, most Germanic or Celtic people would argue that they are not the same ethnicity as MENA people who seems to agree.
This article was
copy edited by
Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 25 April 2018.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject South Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
South Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.South AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject South AfricaTemplate:WikiProject South AfricaSouth Africa articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Cooperatives, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CooperativesWikipedia:WikiProject CooperativesTemplate:WikiProject CooperativesCooperatives articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Urban studies and planning, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Urban studies and planning on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Urban studies and planningWikipedia:WikiProject Urban studies and planningTemplate:WikiProject Urban studies and planningUrban studies and planning articles
@
SONORAMA: The claim you've removed is supported by a
reliable source: the Guardian. Also, its one of the only mentions in the lead at the moment of the key fact that this town is not generally open to black folks. There is no reason to doubt that, given how many sources describe this town as for whites only.
CaptainEekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓17:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
Hello
User:CaptainEek. The quote in question is: "Although Orania, in accordance with South Africa's constitution, has no formal law banning black visitors, in practice only Afrikaner residents are permitted; black people nearby fear they will be met with violence if they were to visit." My italics added. The text confuses visitors (of which there are lots of examples of non-whites visiting Orania) with residents (Orania currently has no non-white residents). I'd suggest making it clear that people of all races can and do visit Orania, but at present only white Afrikaners live there. I further suggest that this kind of down-in-the-weeds about outsiders perceptions of being met with violence versus the reality that they aren't might best be placed in the section on external reception, rather than in the lead. For that matter, there is simply no indication that Orania uses intimidation to keep people out; to the contrary, they seem eager to welcome visitors, although residency is restricted to Afrikaners who share their values. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
SONORAMA (
talk •
contribs)
19:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)reply
The fact that English-speaking whites aren't allowed to live in Orania either is probably how they get away with their exclusive policies without being considered "racist."
TOttenville8 (
talk)
17:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)reply
There are actually english speaking people on the town. I met a few Rhodesians and a scotsman. The town officials said that both Scots and Rhodesian cultures are close enough to Afrikaans culture and that they share a history. Personally the mental gymnastics these Oraniers are pulling is quite off pitting.
196.210.58.144 (
talk)
06:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)reply
There is a German couple as well as a couple from New Zealand living there. You say it is mental gymnastics, but after having spoken to a Mr. Ferreira, a panelist on the residency council, he said they tried to catch them out by asking if they speak Afrikaans, which schools their kids go to, how religious etc. they are and they passed. The kids went to Afrikaans schools. And they spoke with thick accents but made great effort in learning Afrikaans.
Jan200203 (
talk)
22:31, 27 June 2024 (UTC)reply
No, it'd be unnecessary disambiguation. We don't put Child Okeford, United Kingdom or Cuiabá, Brazil - if people are searching for Orania, they will only mean the South African settlement as there is no other Orania.
Couruu (
talk)
16:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)reply
First sentence of the lead
A
2022 RFC determined that the first sentence of the lead should read a white separatist town founded by Afrikaners. Changing it from that would require another RFC (which I think would be unlikely to produce a different result, since that description is extensively sourced to high-quality sources.) --
Aquillion (
talk)
01:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I think that both options are fine. "White separatist" and "Afrikaner nationalist/only" are both technically correct as far as I can tell
Chujovas (
talk)
22:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Appreciate that you didn't revert my edit. I just find "Afrikaner nationalist" to be more appropriate. White separatist just sounds a bit misleading, Orania is specifically an Afrikaans community. I don't think an anglo would be allowed to live in Orania. I also don't think someone like Joost Strydom, for instance would say "we are a separatist town". Orania isn't necessarily trying to literally gain independence from South Africa, they're just attempting a strangely independent, self-sufficient community.
The term "white separatist" is misleading and technically incorrect:
a) Orania is an Afrikaner-only town. Not a whites-only town. If it was a whites only town they would be open to whites from England or America moving there, they are not.
b) Afrikaners are not white. DNA analysis clearly shows that they have African and Asian ancestry.
c) They do not describe themselves as white, but as Afrikaners or Boers. Respecting how people self-identify is important.
d) "White separatist" is a loaded word, it could even considered a slur with very negative connotations. Wikipedia does not condone dehumanizing language to describe vulnerable minorities.
Johnmars3 (
talk)
07:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I broadly agree with you, and for the purposes of this discussion, we're on the same side. However, the Afrikaners ARE white, maybe not 100%, but by your logic the average
"white" American wouldn't even be white. I agree with you on everything else though.
Roosterchz (
talk)
15:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
"White" has become a meaningless metric. For example the US government classify Middle Easterners and North Africans as "white". However, most Germanic or Celtic people would argue that they are not the same ethnicity as MENA people who seems to agree.