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Who has moved all this to the archive? Is this a way to conceal the discussion? I feel the discussion is not over yet: and I am not gone. Uncertain 19:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Welcome back, Uncertain. Please click the history tab and you'll find out who archived the previous discussions. Walter could very well have had a good intention. The page was rather long. Marax 08:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I am beginning a new section to make it easier to focus on the issue raised by Uncertain. Here is the basic issue:
My point in turn is the title of this section.
1) OD, could have taken advantage, but did not take advantage of the Franco Regime to spread and prosper.
Allen recalls the Benelli story: Benelli --right hand man of Paul VI--wanted a Catholic Party in Spain a la Italy's Christian Democrats and wanted all Catholics to tow the line. Escriva, who was truly desperate in asking the help of Benelli to talk to Paul VI re personal prelature status, refused Benelli. And later complained to Benelli for holding Opus Dei hostage so Benelli could have his way. Allen says: "The Benelli story offers a good case for testing whether Escrifva was serious about OD having no political agenda. If ever there was a set of circumstances propitious for a "power grab", this situation presented them. ...If OD led the way in the creation of Spanish version of Christian Democ, its imaginable that its total of 8 ministers in 36 years under Franco would have been swamped by its representation in a new Spanish government."
Escriva stated in Conversations that Opus Dei had the hardest time and the greatest difficulties in Spain. I think partly because of accusations like these without any foundation in reality, "sin fundamento in re."
2) OD could not have been overrepresented in the government.
There were only 8 ministers of 119 in 36 years, one died three months after he took over and 3 others were there only for one term. And that is 1957 when Opus Dei already expanded so much. There were several other Catholics from other associations involved with Franco.
Serer was removed by Franco from the Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas in 1953 for an essay he wrote against Franco government.
Herran was a young man after the civil war when he protested against Franco and jailed.
Thus, in this issue, the institution of Opus Dei as such has no sin. Some members might have helped support a dictator. And if it were a sin to help your country in that situation by being "proponents of rapid capitalist growth" and of the "neutralization of politics through prosperity" (Carr and Fusi in Allen),* then it's their sin, their personal accountability. Just an example (not true): If my brother helped Idi Amin, and I fought against Idi Amin and was persecuted, jailed and exhiled, while my parents left us to be totally free in politics, I would argue and demand extremely clear evidence against anybody who accuses that my mother and father took advantage of Idi Amin's regime to spread and prosper. And I would demand even more evidence especially when the evidence that my parents left us in freedom is even more abundant and attested by credible experts and the latest research.
Well, this is my small contribution to this wonderful historical discussion. I studied history in my undergraduate studies and studied theology later. They go well together in the search for truth.
I would also like to add that I understand where Uncertain is coming from. He is a Spaniard and I am happy he is discussing the recent historical issues of his country with a truly admirable tenacity to ferret out the truth. Marax 06:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
In May 2000 the International Press Institute nominated Antonio Fontan, a member of Opus Dei who opposed Franco, as one of its fifty 'Press Freedom Heroes' for its 50th anniversary. It is not personal merely to point out that he is Spanish, any more than it is personal to point out that the only Spaniard on the list of fifty is a member of Opus Dei.
Rafael Calvo Serer, another Spanish member of Opus Dei opposed Franco. All the sources agree on this, e.g. his obituary in The Times of 21 April 1988. Now his motives are being called in question, as if his opposition to Franco might not be genuine. But it is likely that people of that time and place owed their stance towards Franco to all sorts of motives. Some of these motives might be personal, at least in part. Some may have had their eyes opened or changed their opinion at some stage. Some could even have stood to gain somehow, or had little to lose. While this can be taken into account when assessing one's personal qualities or foresight, none of it changes the fact of opposition to Franco, nor therefore of pluralism in Opus Dei. Asoane 16:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
For one thing, Messori identifies the ministers in Franco’s government correctly. That is why he can cite the figure of eight. They were: Lopez Rodó, Navarro Rubio, Espinosa, García Moncó, Ullastres, Mortes, Lopez-Bravo and Herrero Tejedor. Preston claims Fernandez Miranda was a member of Opus Dei: he is simply incorrect. On the other hand Ramón Arango is correct when he says Carrero Blanco was not a member. Asoane 12:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
In contrast with the historians whose sources are clearly inferior in this area, Messori is credible, unless you are disinclined to trust him (or perhaps the distrust has more to do with Opus Dei) in the first place. With accurate facts one can draw better inferences. Gunther is perhaps a bit less reliable, as you can see from some of the names he gives. Asoane 12:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Messori also gives names of people in the opposition. Ditto John Allen’s book, a work that I disagree with in many ways, but it is accurate when it cites facts. If you would like criteria for a "credible source" for an entry on Opus Dei, perhaps factual accuracy as regards Opus Dei might be high on the list.
Asoane
12:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, I am not impressed by the speculations of certain of the historians: expertise on Spanish politics is no indicator of expertise on Opus Dei. The extracts from Preston and Crozier quoted far above are reasonable. Perhaps we should discount entirely any historian who ever wrote that Carrero Blanco was a member of Opus Dei. :-) Asoane 15:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The book that Marax qouted above have some more material on the Opus. I quote extensively because it leads with the position of Calvo Serer and with some of the points I was trying to rise. This is in a sub-section entitled "(iii) The Catholic church" within the section "The institutionalised families":
They follow comparing ACNP and Opus Dei and their respective positions within Francoism:
Raymond Carr, I do read in the 1993 edition, are respectively Warden of St Anthony's College, Oxford and Director of the Iberian Centre, St Anthony's College, Oxford. -- Uncertain 19:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, the two previous paragraphs of the cited book are also interesting, spacially in their oppinion about Escrivá; but are nor related with Calvo Serer and my main interests. I will copy them later. -- Uncertain 19:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
If you will allow me, Uncertain, Asoane, Marax, Tom, can I bring in my views to focus on the big picture, the forest so to speak.
Let me quote the dictionary definitions of "represent": (a) to stand in the place of, (b) to speak and act for by delegated authority, (c) to act in behalf of, (d) to serve as an agent for.
I would strongly object to the use of the word "representation" in the text, even if it is couched in statistical terms, because to use the term is to "misrepresent" or mis-depict (this is the other dictionary meaning) what happened in history. Lafem 08:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a "Disambiguation page" about "
Representation":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation
One of the possible pages it refers to is "Group representation":
And the connected page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_representation I am sorry that you disagree with mathematicians and statisticians. And, probably, with linguistics. -- Uncertain 19:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
'In fact, as you probably has seen, this meaning has little to do with my main point. But I have a few examples. I have found them writting "over-represented" in Google:
/Google examples of over-representation
The demanded definitions of over-representation
Dear Uncertain, you have been citing statistical terminology, and you have performed a statistical calculation. A statistician objects to the assumptions behind the calculation, and also to your particular use of the word “overrepresentation”; whereupon you write “The opinions of your friend about the 'political meaning' of the term over-representation do not interest me”. With one bound our hero was free!
My other source, the actuary, wrote independently: “The use of the word overrepresented is wrong as it implies that these people are representing Opus Dei in some way which is not the case.” Two experts agree independently of each other that your use of the word is wrong. What is the probability of them both erring in this area?
In my opinion this is being dragged out unnecessarily. You have sought approval from Wikipedia disambiguation on “representation” and failed to find it. Now your use of the word “overrepresentation” is being criticized by experts in the discipline you are trying to exploit. The word does not serve to avoid confusion, but does exactly the opposite. I earlier suggested a sentence which avoids confusion. You have not stated whether you object to it, and I am left asking myself why. Asoane 12:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Very well, Uncertain. Please write down here your choice, among all the things mentioned here, of the exact definition of "representation" which you have in mind. Please quote from one of the sources. Let's focus on the word representation. You will agree that Over- is a mere prefix, meaning excessive, above average, above normal, too much. Lafem 03:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I have discovered that book by Michael Walsh, Opus Dei: An Investigation into the Secret Society Struggling for Power within the Roman Catholic Church. If you had not insisted, I probably would have never read it. Thank you. I think this book should be quoted more often in this web page. [And also that by Luis Carandell] -- Uncertain 18:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Uncertain,
Lafem, who I know quite well, asked me to continue your discussion. I suppose it has something to do with the initial "sparks" between the two of you. I see the problem has not subsided. :-/ I read your comments with gusto, and I tried to read carefully the definitions you gave links to:
You also refer to "the last definition" matching your meaning. Is this the one? "Our subsample overrepresents those with children."
Let's see if we can have an "unemotional discussion" of this issue. By "over-represent" you then mean "having an excess of people who stand in the place of others." Am I doing justice to your thought? Rabadur 09:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
While Uncertain continues to evade substantial issues raised by Asoane, Lafem and myself against his theories, red herring or otherwise, on over-representation (which BTW seems to fall under the category of Original Research), may I propose that we follow what Wikipedia is asking, i.e. report on what the credible experts have undoubtedly stated. From what I have read so far in the discussion, there is no longer any dispute on these items.
1) It is "unfounded" to state that Opus Dei was aiming for political power and has taken over Franco's government. Franco merely needed a pragmatic and technical solution to possible bankruptcy and found some people who were highly recommendable.
a) Crozier: The charge that Opus Dei had been aiming at political power, and had achieved it at last, was heard in February 1957, when Ullastres and Navarro Rubio joined Franco’s cabinet. In this bare form, the charge seems to be unfounded because based on a misconception of what Opus Dei is. It is not, as its enemies either think or want others to think, a political party; nor is it a political pressure group. Nor, for that matter, is it a kind of super labour-exchange for politicians. In February 1957, Franco did not turn, as one would almost conclude from reading hostile comment, to Opus Dei's leadership, saying, in effect: 'I have vacancies for a couple of technocrats. Send me some candidates and I shall make my choice.' This would not have been Franco’s way, even if it had been Opus Dei's ambition. What happened was more pragmatic and less sinister. Franco had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Ullastres and Navarro Rubio and sent for them; they happened to be members of Opus Dei. On the same occasion, he had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Castiella and Gual Villalbi and sent for them; but Castiella and Gual Villalbi happened not to be members of Opus Dei.
b) Preston: "The arrival of the technocrats has been interpreted variously as a planned take-over by Opus Dei and a clever move by Franco to 'fill vacant seats in the latest round of musical chairs' [he quotes Yntfante's Santa mafia]. In fact, the arrival of the technocrats was neither sinister nor cunning but rather a piecemeal and pragmatic response to a specific set of problems. By the beggining of 1957, the regime faced political and economic bankrupcy. Franco and Carrero Blanco were looking for new blood and fresh ideas. To be acceptable, new men had to come from within the Movimiento, be catholic, accepted the idea of an eventual return to the monarchy and be, in Francoist terms, apolitical. López Rodó, Navarro Rubio and Ullastres [members of OD] were ideal. López Rodó was the nominee of Carrero Blanco. [He quotes López Rodó's Memories]. The dynamic Navarro Rubio was the Caudillo's choice. Franco had known him since 1949. He was a Procurador en Cortes for the Sindicatos and had been highly recommended by the outgoing Minister of Agriculture, Rafael Cavestany. Preston quotes Navarro Rubio's memories]. Both López Rodó and Navarro Rubio suggested Ullastres. [López Rodó's memories]. (as quoted by Uncertain)
c) Berglar: In 1957 FRanco restructured his cabinet with a view to restoring the economy of Spain and guiding the nation toward a modern fiscal system. With such purposes in mind,he appointed a number of talented young bankers and economists. Four of them were members of Opus Dei.
2) Ullastres, Navarro Rubio, Lopez Rodo were in the Franco Cabinet primarily due to their personal intellectual and technical merits.
a) Crozier: Franco had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Ullastres and Navarro Rubio and sent for them; they happened to be members of Opus Dei. On the same occasion, he had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Castiella and Gual Villalbi and sent for them; but Castiella and Gual Villalbi happened not to be members of Opus Dei.
b) Preston: Bright, hard-working functionaries were emerging who were more concerned to get top jobs in the state apparatus than to implement the ideology of Falangism. That was entirely true of men like López Rodó and Navarro Rubio who were labelled as being primarily of Opus Dei but were more accurately seen as being part of what came to be called the 'bureacracy of number ones', those who had won competitive civil service examinations or university chairs while still very young.
c) Messori/Romano: In specialists publications there is talk of the "age of technocracy" in the Franco regime, with the implication that the emphasis, for a time, had passed from the plane of ideology to the pragmatic.
Credibility of Preston: Widely acclaimied writer: Top 10 books on Spanish Civil War From Stanford University: WAIS has among its members several leading specialists on the Spanish Civil War. Perhaps the best known is Paul Preston, because his books appeal both to scholars and the general public. He writes with a familiarity of the period which would suggest he lived through it, but he was not born at the time. We may think of the writers involved in the Civil War as belonging to three generations. Paul Preston belongs to the third generation, which can view with the Civil War with the objectivity that comes from time. and the scholarly perusal of the vast literature which the Spanish Civil War generated, well over 15,000 books and pamphlets. Paul has made many contributions to that number. The most recent ones are first, A Concise History of the Spanish Civil War (1996) is a revised and updated version of The Spanish Civil War, 1936-39 (1986). The second is a Spanish translation (2000) of this work, entitled La Guerra Civil Española, published by Plaza& Janés, which had published his earlier best-seller Las tres Españas del 36 (1998) , a collection of nine biographies of Civil War figures. The first of these is Francisco Franco, to whom Paul had devoted a full-scale book, Franco. A Biography (1993).
I intend to quote these experts in the Opus Dei and Allegations article and summarize it a bit for the main article. Thomas S. Major 11:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I have just done it. Thanks, R Davidson and Walter, for the support. Let me clarify that what I have added are those items in which there is a consensus among the experts and among the editors. The "over-representation" issue of Uncertain, whatever it means, is untouched by these additions. He is pursuing a very specific issue, as he himself has said. I respect that. Thomas S. Major 06:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Excelent move, Tom. While I was wasting time with the secondary issues raised by Asoane and Lafem --not to speak about recent ''mobbing''-- you have made some additions concerning the main issues. I think it is a good addition, although I think that we should also quote Preston's "The politics of revenge", and other pages in Franco's Biography to avoid misinterpretation. I would like to have five times the time I have to answer to all of you. However, I am happy to see that this discussion has raised the interest of those who seldom make contributions, like Walter Ching [Hi, Walter!]. -- Uncertain 17:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Preston's Politics of Revenge is dated 1990. It states: "the Franco regime experience a constant jockeying for power and influence and between generals, Falangists, Catholics, monarchists, the Opus Dei and other political factions.” (1990:15). ...Until they were supplanted by the Opus Dei technocrats in 1957"
His Franco of 1993 states: "The arrival of the technocrats has been interpreted variously as a planned take-over by Opus Dei and a clever move by Franco to 'fill vacant seats in the latest round of musical chairs' [he quotes Yntfante's Santa mafia]. In fact, the arrival of the technocrats was neither sinister nor cunning but rather a piecemeal and pragmatic response to a specific set of problems."
It seems from this that Preston rectified his former view. His 1993 book supersedes his 1990 statements. Thomas S. Major
To be fair with Uncertain and just to help ease his perception that he is being "mobbed", I have summarized his main points, reported on their status, and can say that I certainly agree with one of his main points (#2).
1. My point is that Opus Dei was overrepresented in government (not only in the cabinet) and in the University...Well, it is again a joke to speak of "representation" in a dictatorship. My point is that this representation is overwhelmingly larger than the handle of Opus Dei members that were against the dictatorship --those you are looking for in the footnotes of History.
2. It portrays Opus Dei members' majority as conservative at that time (and still now in Spain), and the Opus as an organisation related with mostly conservative thinking.
3. It portrays it taking advantage of a situation that made Spain worst-off. This is Opus Dei's "original sin", which price is paying [and that the organisation took advantage of the Regime to spread and prosper.] -- this has been proven wrong by Marax (cf. Benelli story) and by Preston and Crozier's point that Opus Dei was not taking over Franco regime.
Do you agree with this status report, Uncertain and Asoane? Thomas S. Major (sorry, logging in takes a lot of time).
I moved everything Escrivá to the Escrivá article and added a link.
The following sites were removed. I keep them here, in case they are needed for reference.
Is there consensus for the deletion of all these links? I would object to some of the reasons provided for deletion, as these are the opinions of one editor only. --
ZappaZ
22:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I am in favor of condensing the external links for them to appear in the main article. This is one of the suggestions at the FAC, if I am not mistaken. So, I would even commend Irmgard. I was about to do it myself, but he beat me to the draw! Thanks, Irmgard!
Am not in favor of deleting the remaining links except the deadlinks of course, and I agree with Zappaz here. They can still fit in their former place in the sub-page. It would be a pity to lose these links, they give additional insight and information. My opinion. :) Thomas S. Major 07:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I just finished reading Allen's new book on Opus Dei. The book which has been praised for balanced, even-handed reporting even by the secular press, [1] provides a substantial report on the theology of Opus Dei and its application in about 8 of the 14 chapters of the book. So, we are on the right track! Thomas S. Major 08:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I have just finished reading Dan Browns The Da Vinci Code, and have to disagree with the section on Activities and work about Opus Dei being depicted as a sinister cult. Only two characters from OD were mentioned, and even then they were conned them sleves into doing bad things, thinking that it was for the best. It is those two that were depicted as sinister, not the organisation. I am not associated with OD or anything in the story, but I do like facts, and as such I think the section on The Da Vinci Code should be re written slightly. But, as many people have said before, this is only my view...
Kindly check this out: opus dei and da vinci and catholic answers. I have not read the book myself, so kindly help disentagle the issue. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 04:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't even agree that "two" characters are described as sinister. One is portraied as fanatically devout and misguided simpleton who was deceived into commiting murders, which eventually result in accidental death of his mentor who specically tell this simpleton not to resort to revenge for his death. My guess is that most Opus Dei members or for that matter Catholic haven't read the book. And lastly, the book was so s£$%, I want my money back. FWBOarticle 11:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
This para was much too long for the general article, in view of the fact that there is a special article on the subject. I condensed a lot, deleting generalities (it's not too interesting who said where and who else said where else that Opus Dei is a cult), replacing general remarks on ex-members with link to relevant article, shortened Odan and Wilson (both are still in full length in Opposition to Opus Dei), moving one para to Opposition to Opus Dei which was not contained there, deleting mortification points which are not a prime issue regarding the cult question. I added the reasons which, e.g., Garvey and Moncada give and modified the cult observer section.
Opus Dei is a cult? Dont be silly! A cult is a sect that only accepts itself as the one religion people should believe in and doesnt tolerste other sects. Opus Dei has good relations with the Catholic Church, the Anglican church, and many other branches, and also openly accepts Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduis and Islam as good religions. [[User:racooon|racooon]. 5th March 2006.
I condensed the third para of the intro somewhat, removed some redundancies, moved other special points further down in the article. I also removed the word revolutionary, as it should not be used unqualified in this context: while I do not doubt that some Catholic supporters of Opus Dei see its teachings as revolutionary, this is rather a Catholic-only view - in Lutheranism and especially Calvinism the sanctity of everyday work has been standard teaching already in the sixteenth century (and had a great effect on Calvinist culture). Revolutionary might be used somewhere further down in the article, but somewhat qualified (e.g. revolutionary within the Catholic church or so) -- Irmgard 20:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Made subsections for each membership type as they are, for the average reader, more informational titles than "Celibatary". Shortened picture descriptions for layout reasons. BTW, supernumerary and numerary articles should get Opus Dei sections. -- Irmgard 20:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Kindly read Wiki Guide to layout. It says something about short subsections:
I suggest bringing back the old form; or if people don't like the celibacy title, then suppress the subsections. This will reduce the bulk of the article. R Davidson 14:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
This is captioned "Jesus Christ". Surely this is POV. I respect the beliefs of many Christians that it is Jesus, but there is no proof, and no general consensus as to whose face it is. Leonardo da Vinci has also been suggested as the subject. The tests conducted in the 1980s certainly did not support the Jesus theory, suggesting a much later origin. JackofOz 06:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi all;
I thought I would give you an update on how I think this page is doing in terms of NPOV. I have already updated my previous analysis.
Firstly, the paragraph about OD's status of a cult is written from "Catholic Point of View (TM)". The problem is that there are several definitions] of 'cult
leadership structure" and "claim to be the only way to God" for example.
is a statement which only applies to the recent catholic definition. This section needs a very careful restructuring to make it clear which definition is being used in the accusations and which definition is being used in the defense. Please complare Cult (religion) with cult to get some idea of current Wikipedia consensus on the use of these words.
This paragraph (and those follow on) show the critics simply as strawmen; I think it's an attempt to improve POV, however, we don't have a clear view of what the critics are claiming and we lack sources to look it up. Worse still, is the use of the word while at the beginning, which immediately implies lack of credibility;
State what the facts are; state what the critics actually said; let them hang themselves if they are lying. Don't project a view of the critics through language or structure of the Wikipedia writing.
In coverage of the Da Vinci Code in the current text, to be frank the, view that the book is a serious representation of OD is put far above the view that the Da Vinci Code is simply a work of fiction, and that (my own restatement of other's opinion) serious responses to it are rather similar to an association of bean stalk growers running around everywhere denying that there is any risk of giants climbing down their plants from the sky.
The interesting story is not that the Da Vinci Code is inaccurate but the reason why Opus Dei felt the need to respond to a work of fiction.
The current article is separated from Opposition to Opus Dei. Because it covers similar areas, but with a different view, that article has become effectively a POV fork of this article. The two should be merged and a different split should be proposed to keep the length down. Examples of statements which contradict this article
Where this article goes into more detil on varied views of the topic.
When splitting the article to reduce length summary style should be used to split out separate articles about theology and by reducing the section on Opus Dei in society by about 20-30% remembering that the subsidiary article should not be duplicated too much in the main text.
Finally, there are three sections Message and Teachings, Doctrine, instruction and training and Opus Dei and Catholic demands where much material overlaps. They should probably be merged and split into teaching/training; message/doctrines and relationship with the catholic church (which should also include the section Structure: Catholic personal prelature).
Mozzerati 22:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC) (comment still a work in progress; some corrections will probably be refactored in)
Great point, Lafem, and great edits. Let me explain further what you have just put down so well, but from another point of view. This article is about a Catholic organization studying first its origins and its main influencer (the Catholic Church), its place in the Church and what the Church wants from it, then second studying Opus Dei's influence and reach outside the Church. Since the origins of something determines its nature and all the aspects flowing from this nature, the greater part of the article should be devoted to Opus Dei in the Catholic Church, i.e. Opus Dei in its origins, its nature and rationale. There are 6 sections tackling all these. The last section tackles Opus Dei in Society: aims, members in society, work they do for society, paradigms for action, politics.
The first 6 sections develop (1) Opus Dei's creation within the Church and its role within it: a Catholic Catechesis, (2) Its Catholic teachings based on its specific lay spirituality, (3) Its structure within the Catholic Church, (4) Its Catholic Doctrine and Training Program, (5) Its Catholic Demands, their rationale and consequences. The last two sections do not overlap per se. Using the terminology of the sociologists of religion, "Doctrine" refers to its "qualitative aspects", and "Demands" refers to its "quantitative aspects" and its rationale.
I will do some more edits based on what I have just written. Perhaps the problem lies in the length of the treatment of these sections and not the sectioning per se as I wrote above. In fact, I've already done some work to make them more brief. But let's see what else can be done. And yes, thanks to Mozzerati for pushing more improvement. :-) Marax 09:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article is unbalanced and especially the extensive quotes of Massimo Introvigne. The vast majority of the people involved with of Opus Dei were, like myself, only shallowly involved. And of course, these persons, incl. myself have little reasons to complain. I do recognize though from my experience some of the points of criticisms made by the critical former members, who were deeply involved and of course I can understand that they are disappointed and angry about that (though one has to be quite naive and blind not to see these traits of Opus Dei before joining). Self admitted sockpuppet 18:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I have removed this page from Category:Roman Catholic Church as it is listed in a number of subsidiary pages. I will come back to these subsidiary pages later, but for now I've simply removed it from the RCC cat. -- JASpencer 13:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the introduction is an abstract of the article. And so I submit that Allen's book and what he has shown should appear there. This article cites his well-researched work all throughout:
And so an abstract of the article should mention his research, the latest and one of most thorough yet in history.
Thus I am bringing back the former statement in the Intro before the recent changes:
Nobody so far has questioned the angle of neutrality and factuality of this statement, but I now submit that this statement is not just a good summary of the article, it is also factual and neutral.
1) It is factual that (a) Allen is known for his objectivity. This reading of Allen is all over the internet. One commentator even said his objectivity is "maddening." See his Wikipedia bio as well: John L. Allen, Jr.; (b) that he has gathered abundant facts (this is also bourne out not just by the article itself, by the many reviews on the article) (c) that these facts run counter to the allegations (ibid).
2) It is neutral. The statement does not even say negate or disprove, words which I believe can perfectly be used here. Be that as it may, the present rendering just says that the facts he gathered cut in the opposite direction of these allegations. This way of stating things is perfectly in accord with the Wikipedia:NPOV policy on majority views and non-equal validity.
Hope this is clear enough. Thomas S. Major 09:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi DNP, More ideas. How about:
I have the following reasons: (a) Allen still needs to be given special credit, and his credentials presented, (b) I think the anonymous editor who placed the title of his work, intended that to take the place of the word controversial which was a big bone of contention some time ago, on whether or not the word should appear in the Intro. So I placed the word back in its old place before the title was placed. Thomas S. Major 04:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The FAC discussion page for Opus Dei, from September 2005, just showed up on my watchlist, and I realized that people have been using it as a kind of workshop, adding comments and new sections to it, right up to today. That's a mistake; the page is an archive, and needs to be kept as it was when Raul removed the nomination from WP:FAC. Readers are supposed to be able to click on the link to it in the "This article is a former featured article candidate" template at the top of this page and find the FAC discussion, just the way it went, "to see why the nomination failed", as the template says. They're not supposed to find a confusing mixture of old and new. Moreover, if the article should be re-submitted to FAC at some point, the archive of the previous discussion is even more essential for the FAC reviewers to have, to see what happened last time. Among other things, people seem to have been pasting comments from this talkpage into it. That's a backwards way of doing it: if you wish to have a discussion based on the FAC archive, you should add comments from it to this talkpage. Or, if you'd like to have a separate discussion page based on the FAC nomination, create a subpage of the form Talk:Opus Dei/FAC nomination September 2005 with additions, or whatever, and link to it from here. I've reverted the archive to how it was on September 30. Of course the text with the later comments can easily be retrieved from the history, if you'd like to use it in any of the way's I've suggested. Bishonen | talk 07:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Andries, I am trying to synthesize the different versions proposed so far:
My latest proposal: While the topic of the validity of testimonies of former members of religious organizations is controversial, some prominent sociologists like Reader Emeritus of Sociology of the University of Oxford, Bryan R. Wilson, generally advocate skepticism towards the testimonies of critical former members. Wilson, for example, goes so far as to say that some of these adult members who are "prone to bias" sometimes "learn to rehearse an atrocity story." See Controversy about the validity of the testimonies of critical members of religious movements
My proposal tries to put together proposals. I think that Thomas' attempt to provide a quote is ok given the NPOV policy:
Although I do agree that the quote has to be nuanced as you said in [4]: that Wilson although prominent and a very "reputable source" is quite extreme. Thus, my rendering: "he goes so far as to say." Lafem 05:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I just placed a colon after the word love in the feature of Escriva's spiritual teaching called love for freedom. In classic theology, love which a union of lover and beloved is shown above all through obedience, a union of wills, for the will is the greatest faculty of the person.
I've also corrected recently another thing connected to this and as summary of the edit I placed this: it is the Divine Person's use of human freedom as new Adam, with a human love of infinite value, that made up for 1st Adam's sin vs the Infinite God.
It's an important point which I want to record here. Saint Paul preached that the one mediator is the man Jesus Christ. It shows the importnace of human nature, humam struggle, human excellence. That is why Escriva called the human virtues, produced by free human acts, as the "foundation" of the supernatural virtues, the virtues which save and sanctify us and unite us to God. Marax 09:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to get feedback on the photo of Introvigne's work and the quote that I just posted.
Thanks, Lafem, for backing up my quotes of Bryan Wilson with Wikipedia policies on neutrality. Yes, indeed, Wikipedia rules are out to ensure we have a reliable encyclopedia by citing the most reputable source. I've done more research on Introvigne and yes he ranks high as a scholar. He has published hundreds of article in scientific journals. See his numerous works in His updated Bibliography.
I would have wanted to put a photo of Introvigne, but am still scouting for a good one. But I found this nice photo of his Encyclopedia of Religions. It might be better to place this than a photo of his face. This clearly shows his "reputableness" and "credibility" as an expert. Anyway, as I said, some feedback would be good. Thomas S. Major 05:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it's fine - the only change I would suggest:
to
as it is not immediately obvious (although one does figure it out.....one would hope, anyways) why the picture of the book cover is there. Out of curiosity, is that quote out of the Encyclopedia? DonaNobisPacem 07:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The statement combines several quotes: "prime target" appears in his interview with Messori on Opus Dei. "stigmatize" comes from his article which he translated into English as Labelling...(see one of the footnotes) "return to religion" is from his article on Opus Dei and the Anti-cult movement.
It does not come from the Encyclopedia itself. The articles and interview do not have covers and so no image... Thanks a lot for the immediate feedback! BTW, ok to your suggestion! Thomas S. Major 07:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
This article keeps using the term "Ultraconservative" repeatedly. I don't think this is an apt description. Conservative, by definition, implies the preservation of the status quo, therefore, it's impossible to be an extreme conservative. I think the appropriate term to express what the authors wish to express would be reactionary, and I'm not sure that really fits. -- 71.141.136.236 09:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Who has moved all this to the archive? Is this a way to conceal the discussion? I feel the discussion is not over yet: and I am not gone. Uncertain 19:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Welcome back, Uncertain. Please click the history tab and you'll find out who archived the previous discussions. Walter could very well have had a good intention. The page was rather long. Marax 08:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I am beginning a new section to make it easier to focus on the issue raised by Uncertain. Here is the basic issue:
My point in turn is the title of this section.
1) OD, could have taken advantage, but did not take advantage of the Franco Regime to spread and prosper.
Allen recalls the Benelli story: Benelli --right hand man of Paul VI--wanted a Catholic Party in Spain a la Italy's Christian Democrats and wanted all Catholics to tow the line. Escriva, who was truly desperate in asking the help of Benelli to talk to Paul VI re personal prelature status, refused Benelli. And later complained to Benelli for holding Opus Dei hostage so Benelli could have his way. Allen says: "The Benelli story offers a good case for testing whether Escrifva was serious about OD having no political agenda. If ever there was a set of circumstances propitious for a "power grab", this situation presented them. ...If OD led the way in the creation of Spanish version of Christian Democ, its imaginable that its total of 8 ministers in 36 years under Franco would have been swamped by its representation in a new Spanish government."
Escriva stated in Conversations that Opus Dei had the hardest time and the greatest difficulties in Spain. I think partly because of accusations like these without any foundation in reality, "sin fundamento in re."
2) OD could not have been overrepresented in the government.
There were only 8 ministers of 119 in 36 years, one died three months after he took over and 3 others were there only for one term. And that is 1957 when Opus Dei already expanded so much. There were several other Catholics from other associations involved with Franco.
Serer was removed by Franco from the Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas in 1953 for an essay he wrote against Franco government.
Herran was a young man after the civil war when he protested against Franco and jailed.
Thus, in this issue, the institution of Opus Dei as such has no sin. Some members might have helped support a dictator. And if it were a sin to help your country in that situation by being "proponents of rapid capitalist growth" and of the "neutralization of politics through prosperity" (Carr and Fusi in Allen),* then it's their sin, their personal accountability. Just an example (not true): If my brother helped Idi Amin, and I fought against Idi Amin and was persecuted, jailed and exhiled, while my parents left us to be totally free in politics, I would argue and demand extremely clear evidence against anybody who accuses that my mother and father took advantage of Idi Amin's regime to spread and prosper. And I would demand even more evidence especially when the evidence that my parents left us in freedom is even more abundant and attested by credible experts and the latest research.
Well, this is my small contribution to this wonderful historical discussion. I studied history in my undergraduate studies and studied theology later. They go well together in the search for truth.
I would also like to add that I understand where Uncertain is coming from. He is a Spaniard and I am happy he is discussing the recent historical issues of his country with a truly admirable tenacity to ferret out the truth. Marax 06:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
In May 2000 the International Press Institute nominated Antonio Fontan, a member of Opus Dei who opposed Franco, as one of its fifty 'Press Freedom Heroes' for its 50th anniversary. It is not personal merely to point out that he is Spanish, any more than it is personal to point out that the only Spaniard on the list of fifty is a member of Opus Dei.
Rafael Calvo Serer, another Spanish member of Opus Dei opposed Franco. All the sources agree on this, e.g. his obituary in The Times of 21 April 1988. Now his motives are being called in question, as if his opposition to Franco might not be genuine. But it is likely that people of that time and place owed their stance towards Franco to all sorts of motives. Some of these motives might be personal, at least in part. Some may have had their eyes opened or changed their opinion at some stage. Some could even have stood to gain somehow, or had little to lose. While this can be taken into account when assessing one's personal qualities or foresight, none of it changes the fact of opposition to Franco, nor therefore of pluralism in Opus Dei. Asoane 16:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
For one thing, Messori identifies the ministers in Franco’s government correctly. That is why he can cite the figure of eight. They were: Lopez Rodó, Navarro Rubio, Espinosa, García Moncó, Ullastres, Mortes, Lopez-Bravo and Herrero Tejedor. Preston claims Fernandez Miranda was a member of Opus Dei: he is simply incorrect. On the other hand Ramón Arango is correct when he says Carrero Blanco was not a member. Asoane 12:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
In contrast with the historians whose sources are clearly inferior in this area, Messori is credible, unless you are disinclined to trust him (or perhaps the distrust has more to do with Opus Dei) in the first place. With accurate facts one can draw better inferences. Gunther is perhaps a bit less reliable, as you can see from some of the names he gives. Asoane 12:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Messori also gives names of people in the opposition. Ditto John Allen’s book, a work that I disagree with in many ways, but it is accurate when it cites facts. If you would like criteria for a "credible source" for an entry on Opus Dei, perhaps factual accuracy as regards Opus Dei might be high on the list.
Asoane
12:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
As you can see, I am not impressed by the speculations of certain of the historians: expertise on Spanish politics is no indicator of expertise on Opus Dei. The extracts from Preston and Crozier quoted far above are reasonable. Perhaps we should discount entirely any historian who ever wrote that Carrero Blanco was a member of Opus Dei. :-) Asoane 15:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The book that Marax qouted above have some more material on the Opus. I quote extensively because it leads with the position of Calvo Serer and with some of the points I was trying to rise. This is in a sub-section entitled "(iii) The Catholic church" within the section "The institutionalised families":
They follow comparing ACNP and Opus Dei and their respective positions within Francoism:
Raymond Carr, I do read in the 1993 edition, are respectively Warden of St Anthony's College, Oxford and Director of the Iberian Centre, St Anthony's College, Oxford. -- Uncertain 19:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, the two previous paragraphs of the cited book are also interesting, spacially in their oppinion about Escrivá; but are nor related with Calvo Serer and my main interests. I will copy them later. -- Uncertain 19:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
If you will allow me, Uncertain, Asoane, Marax, Tom, can I bring in my views to focus on the big picture, the forest so to speak.
Let me quote the dictionary definitions of "represent": (a) to stand in the place of, (b) to speak and act for by delegated authority, (c) to act in behalf of, (d) to serve as an agent for.
I would strongly object to the use of the word "representation" in the text, even if it is couched in statistical terms, because to use the term is to "misrepresent" or mis-depict (this is the other dictionary meaning) what happened in history. Lafem 08:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a "Disambiguation page" about "
Representation":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation
One of the possible pages it refers to is "Group representation":
And the connected page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_representation I am sorry that you disagree with mathematicians and statisticians. And, probably, with linguistics. -- Uncertain 19:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
'In fact, as you probably has seen, this meaning has little to do with my main point. But I have a few examples. I have found them writting "over-represented" in Google:
/Google examples of over-representation
The demanded definitions of over-representation
Dear Uncertain, you have been citing statistical terminology, and you have performed a statistical calculation. A statistician objects to the assumptions behind the calculation, and also to your particular use of the word “overrepresentation”; whereupon you write “The opinions of your friend about the 'political meaning' of the term over-representation do not interest me”. With one bound our hero was free!
My other source, the actuary, wrote independently: “The use of the word overrepresented is wrong as it implies that these people are representing Opus Dei in some way which is not the case.” Two experts agree independently of each other that your use of the word is wrong. What is the probability of them both erring in this area?
In my opinion this is being dragged out unnecessarily. You have sought approval from Wikipedia disambiguation on “representation” and failed to find it. Now your use of the word “overrepresentation” is being criticized by experts in the discipline you are trying to exploit. The word does not serve to avoid confusion, but does exactly the opposite. I earlier suggested a sentence which avoids confusion. You have not stated whether you object to it, and I am left asking myself why. Asoane 12:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Very well, Uncertain. Please write down here your choice, among all the things mentioned here, of the exact definition of "representation" which you have in mind. Please quote from one of the sources. Let's focus on the word representation. You will agree that Over- is a mere prefix, meaning excessive, above average, above normal, too much. Lafem 03:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
By the way, I have discovered that book by Michael Walsh, Opus Dei: An Investigation into the Secret Society Struggling for Power within the Roman Catholic Church. If you had not insisted, I probably would have never read it. Thank you. I think this book should be quoted more often in this web page. [And also that by Luis Carandell] -- Uncertain 18:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Uncertain,
Lafem, who I know quite well, asked me to continue your discussion. I suppose it has something to do with the initial "sparks" between the two of you. I see the problem has not subsided. :-/ I read your comments with gusto, and I tried to read carefully the definitions you gave links to:
You also refer to "the last definition" matching your meaning. Is this the one? "Our subsample overrepresents those with children."
Let's see if we can have an "unemotional discussion" of this issue. By "over-represent" you then mean "having an excess of people who stand in the place of others." Am I doing justice to your thought? Rabadur 09:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
While Uncertain continues to evade substantial issues raised by Asoane, Lafem and myself against his theories, red herring or otherwise, on over-representation (which BTW seems to fall under the category of Original Research), may I propose that we follow what Wikipedia is asking, i.e. report on what the credible experts have undoubtedly stated. From what I have read so far in the discussion, there is no longer any dispute on these items.
1) It is "unfounded" to state that Opus Dei was aiming for political power and has taken over Franco's government. Franco merely needed a pragmatic and technical solution to possible bankruptcy and found some people who were highly recommendable.
a) Crozier: The charge that Opus Dei had been aiming at political power, and had achieved it at last, was heard in February 1957, when Ullastres and Navarro Rubio joined Franco’s cabinet. In this bare form, the charge seems to be unfounded because based on a misconception of what Opus Dei is. It is not, as its enemies either think or want others to think, a political party; nor is it a political pressure group. Nor, for that matter, is it a kind of super labour-exchange for politicians. In February 1957, Franco did not turn, as one would almost conclude from reading hostile comment, to Opus Dei's leadership, saying, in effect: 'I have vacancies for a couple of technocrats. Send me some candidates and I shall make my choice.' This would not have been Franco’s way, even if it had been Opus Dei's ambition. What happened was more pragmatic and less sinister. Franco had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Ullastres and Navarro Rubio and sent for them; they happened to be members of Opus Dei. On the same occasion, he had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Castiella and Gual Villalbi and sent for them; but Castiella and Gual Villalbi happened not to be members of Opus Dei.
b) Preston: "The arrival of the technocrats has been interpreted variously as a planned take-over by Opus Dei and a clever move by Franco to 'fill vacant seats in the latest round of musical chairs' [he quotes Yntfante's Santa mafia]. In fact, the arrival of the technocrats was neither sinister nor cunning but rather a piecemeal and pragmatic response to a specific set of problems. By the beggining of 1957, the regime faced political and economic bankrupcy. Franco and Carrero Blanco were looking for new blood and fresh ideas. To be acceptable, new men had to come from within the Movimiento, be catholic, accepted the idea of an eventual return to the monarchy and be, in Francoist terms, apolitical. López Rodó, Navarro Rubio and Ullastres [members of OD] were ideal. López Rodó was the nominee of Carrero Blanco. [He quotes López Rodó's Memories]. The dynamic Navarro Rubio was the Caudillo's choice. Franco had known him since 1949. He was a Procurador en Cortes for the Sindicatos and had been highly recommended by the outgoing Minister of Agriculture, Rafael Cavestany. Preston quotes Navarro Rubio's memories]. Both López Rodó and Navarro Rubio suggested Ullastres. [López Rodó's memories]. (as quoted by Uncertain)
c) Berglar: In 1957 FRanco restructured his cabinet with a view to restoring the economy of Spain and guiding the nation toward a modern fiscal system. With such purposes in mind,he appointed a number of talented young bankers and economists. Four of them were members of Opus Dei.
2) Ullastres, Navarro Rubio, Lopez Rodo were in the Franco Cabinet primarily due to their personal intellectual and technical merits.
a) Crozier: Franco had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Ullastres and Navarro Rubio and sent for them; they happened to be members of Opus Dei. On the same occasion, he had heard of the intellectual and technical merits of Castiella and Gual Villalbi and sent for them; but Castiella and Gual Villalbi happened not to be members of Opus Dei.
b) Preston: Bright, hard-working functionaries were emerging who were more concerned to get top jobs in the state apparatus than to implement the ideology of Falangism. That was entirely true of men like López Rodó and Navarro Rubio who were labelled as being primarily of Opus Dei but were more accurately seen as being part of what came to be called the 'bureacracy of number ones', those who had won competitive civil service examinations or university chairs while still very young.
c) Messori/Romano: In specialists publications there is talk of the "age of technocracy" in the Franco regime, with the implication that the emphasis, for a time, had passed from the plane of ideology to the pragmatic.
Credibility of Preston: Widely acclaimied writer: Top 10 books on Spanish Civil War From Stanford University: WAIS has among its members several leading specialists on the Spanish Civil War. Perhaps the best known is Paul Preston, because his books appeal both to scholars and the general public. He writes with a familiarity of the period which would suggest he lived through it, but he was not born at the time. We may think of the writers involved in the Civil War as belonging to three generations. Paul Preston belongs to the third generation, which can view with the Civil War with the objectivity that comes from time. and the scholarly perusal of the vast literature which the Spanish Civil War generated, well over 15,000 books and pamphlets. Paul has made many contributions to that number. The most recent ones are first, A Concise History of the Spanish Civil War (1996) is a revised and updated version of The Spanish Civil War, 1936-39 (1986). The second is a Spanish translation (2000) of this work, entitled La Guerra Civil Española, published by Plaza& Janés, which had published his earlier best-seller Las tres Españas del 36 (1998) , a collection of nine biographies of Civil War figures. The first of these is Francisco Franco, to whom Paul had devoted a full-scale book, Franco. A Biography (1993).
I intend to quote these experts in the Opus Dei and Allegations article and summarize it a bit for the main article. Thomas S. Major 11:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I have just done it. Thanks, R Davidson and Walter, for the support. Let me clarify that what I have added are those items in which there is a consensus among the experts and among the editors. The "over-representation" issue of Uncertain, whatever it means, is untouched by these additions. He is pursuing a very specific issue, as he himself has said. I respect that. Thomas S. Major 06:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Excelent move, Tom. While I was wasting time with the secondary issues raised by Asoane and Lafem --not to speak about recent ''mobbing''-- you have made some additions concerning the main issues. I think it is a good addition, although I think that we should also quote Preston's "The politics of revenge", and other pages in Franco's Biography to avoid misinterpretation. I would like to have five times the time I have to answer to all of you. However, I am happy to see that this discussion has raised the interest of those who seldom make contributions, like Walter Ching [Hi, Walter!]. -- Uncertain 17:46, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Preston's Politics of Revenge is dated 1990. It states: "the Franco regime experience a constant jockeying for power and influence and between generals, Falangists, Catholics, monarchists, the Opus Dei and other political factions.” (1990:15). ...Until they were supplanted by the Opus Dei technocrats in 1957"
His Franco of 1993 states: "The arrival of the technocrats has been interpreted variously as a planned take-over by Opus Dei and a clever move by Franco to 'fill vacant seats in the latest round of musical chairs' [he quotes Yntfante's Santa mafia]. In fact, the arrival of the technocrats was neither sinister nor cunning but rather a piecemeal and pragmatic response to a specific set of problems."
It seems from this that Preston rectified his former view. His 1993 book supersedes his 1990 statements. Thomas S. Major
To be fair with Uncertain and just to help ease his perception that he is being "mobbed", I have summarized his main points, reported on their status, and can say that I certainly agree with one of his main points (#2).
1. My point is that Opus Dei was overrepresented in government (not only in the cabinet) and in the University...Well, it is again a joke to speak of "representation" in a dictatorship. My point is that this representation is overwhelmingly larger than the handle of Opus Dei members that were against the dictatorship --those you are looking for in the footnotes of History.
2. It portrays Opus Dei members' majority as conservative at that time (and still now in Spain), and the Opus as an organisation related with mostly conservative thinking.
3. It portrays it taking advantage of a situation that made Spain worst-off. This is Opus Dei's "original sin", which price is paying [and that the organisation took advantage of the Regime to spread and prosper.] -- this has been proven wrong by Marax (cf. Benelli story) and by Preston and Crozier's point that Opus Dei was not taking over Franco regime.
Do you agree with this status report, Uncertain and Asoane? Thomas S. Major (sorry, logging in takes a lot of time).
I moved everything Escrivá to the Escrivá article and added a link.
The following sites were removed. I keep them here, in case they are needed for reference.
Is there consensus for the deletion of all these links? I would object to some of the reasons provided for deletion, as these are the opinions of one editor only. --
ZappaZ
22:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I am in favor of condensing the external links for them to appear in the main article. This is one of the suggestions at the FAC, if I am not mistaken. So, I would even commend Irmgard. I was about to do it myself, but he beat me to the draw! Thanks, Irmgard!
Am not in favor of deleting the remaining links except the deadlinks of course, and I agree with Zappaz here. They can still fit in their former place in the sub-page. It would be a pity to lose these links, they give additional insight and information. My opinion. :) Thomas S. Major 07:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I just finished reading Allen's new book on Opus Dei. The book which has been praised for balanced, even-handed reporting even by the secular press, [1] provides a substantial report on the theology of Opus Dei and its application in about 8 of the 14 chapters of the book. So, we are on the right track! Thomas S. Major 08:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I have just finished reading Dan Browns The Da Vinci Code, and have to disagree with the section on Activities and work about Opus Dei being depicted as a sinister cult. Only two characters from OD were mentioned, and even then they were conned them sleves into doing bad things, thinking that it was for the best. It is those two that were depicted as sinister, not the organisation. I am not associated with OD or anything in the story, but I do like facts, and as such I think the section on The Da Vinci Code should be re written slightly. But, as many people have said before, this is only my view...
Kindly check this out: opus dei and da vinci and catholic answers. I have not read the book myself, so kindly help disentagle the issue. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 04:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't even agree that "two" characters are described as sinister. One is portraied as fanatically devout and misguided simpleton who was deceived into commiting murders, which eventually result in accidental death of his mentor who specically tell this simpleton not to resort to revenge for his death. My guess is that most Opus Dei members or for that matter Catholic haven't read the book. And lastly, the book was so s£$%, I want my money back. FWBOarticle 11:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
This para was much too long for the general article, in view of the fact that there is a special article on the subject. I condensed a lot, deleting generalities (it's not too interesting who said where and who else said where else that Opus Dei is a cult), replacing general remarks on ex-members with link to relevant article, shortened Odan and Wilson (both are still in full length in Opposition to Opus Dei), moving one para to Opposition to Opus Dei which was not contained there, deleting mortification points which are not a prime issue regarding the cult question. I added the reasons which, e.g., Garvey and Moncada give and modified the cult observer section.
Opus Dei is a cult? Dont be silly! A cult is a sect that only accepts itself as the one religion people should believe in and doesnt tolerste other sects. Opus Dei has good relations with the Catholic Church, the Anglican church, and many other branches, and also openly accepts Sikhism, Buddhism, Hinduis and Islam as good religions. [[User:racooon|racooon]. 5th March 2006.
I condensed the third para of the intro somewhat, removed some redundancies, moved other special points further down in the article. I also removed the word revolutionary, as it should not be used unqualified in this context: while I do not doubt that some Catholic supporters of Opus Dei see its teachings as revolutionary, this is rather a Catholic-only view - in Lutheranism and especially Calvinism the sanctity of everyday work has been standard teaching already in the sixteenth century (and had a great effect on Calvinist culture). Revolutionary might be used somewhere further down in the article, but somewhat qualified (e.g. revolutionary within the Catholic church or so) -- Irmgard 20:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Made subsections for each membership type as they are, for the average reader, more informational titles than "Celibatary". Shortened picture descriptions for layout reasons. BTW, supernumerary and numerary articles should get Opus Dei sections. -- Irmgard 20:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Kindly read Wiki Guide to layout. It says something about short subsections:
I suggest bringing back the old form; or if people don't like the celibacy title, then suppress the subsections. This will reduce the bulk of the article. R Davidson 14:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
This is captioned "Jesus Christ". Surely this is POV. I respect the beliefs of many Christians that it is Jesus, but there is no proof, and no general consensus as to whose face it is. Leonardo da Vinci has also been suggested as the subject. The tests conducted in the 1980s certainly did not support the Jesus theory, suggesting a much later origin. JackofOz 06:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi all;
I thought I would give you an update on how I think this page is doing in terms of NPOV. I have already updated my previous analysis.
Firstly, the paragraph about OD's status of a cult is written from "Catholic Point of View (TM)". The problem is that there are several definitions] of 'cult
leadership structure" and "claim to be the only way to God" for example.
is a statement which only applies to the recent catholic definition. This section needs a very careful restructuring to make it clear which definition is being used in the accusations and which definition is being used in the defense. Please complare Cult (religion) with cult to get some idea of current Wikipedia consensus on the use of these words.
This paragraph (and those follow on) show the critics simply as strawmen; I think it's an attempt to improve POV, however, we don't have a clear view of what the critics are claiming and we lack sources to look it up. Worse still, is the use of the word while at the beginning, which immediately implies lack of credibility;
State what the facts are; state what the critics actually said; let them hang themselves if they are lying. Don't project a view of the critics through language or structure of the Wikipedia writing.
In coverage of the Da Vinci Code in the current text, to be frank the, view that the book is a serious representation of OD is put far above the view that the Da Vinci Code is simply a work of fiction, and that (my own restatement of other's opinion) serious responses to it are rather similar to an association of bean stalk growers running around everywhere denying that there is any risk of giants climbing down their plants from the sky.
The interesting story is not that the Da Vinci Code is inaccurate but the reason why Opus Dei felt the need to respond to a work of fiction.
The current article is separated from Opposition to Opus Dei. Because it covers similar areas, but with a different view, that article has become effectively a POV fork of this article. The two should be merged and a different split should be proposed to keep the length down. Examples of statements which contradict this article
Where this article goes into more detil on varied views of the topic.
When splitting the article to reduce length summary style should be used to split out separate articles about theology and by reducing the section on Opus Dei in society by about 20-30% remembering that the subsidiary article should not be duplicated too much in the main text.
Finally, there are three sections Message and Teachings, Doctrine, instruction and training and Opus Dei and Catholic demands where much material overlaps. They should probably be merged and split into teaching/training; message/doctrines and relationship with the catholic church (which should also include the section Structure: Catholic personal prelature).
Mozzerati 22:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC) (comment still a work in progress; some corrections will probably be refactored in)
Great point, Lafem, and great edits. Let me explain further what you have just put down so well, but from another point of view. This article is about a Catholic organization studying first its origins and its main influencer (the Catholic Church), its place in the Church and what the Church wants from it, then second studying Opus Dei's influence and reach outside the Church. Since the origins of something determines its nature and all the aspects flowing from this nature, the greater part of the article should be devoted to Opus Dei in the Catholic Church, i.e. Opus Dei in its origins, its nature and rationale. There are 6 sections tackling all these. The last section tackles Opus Dei in Society: aims, members in society, work they do for society, paradigms for action, politics.
The first 6 sections develop (1) Opus Dei's creation within the Church and its role within it: a Catholic Catechesis, (2) Its Catholic teachings based on its specific lay spirituality, (3) Its structure within the Catholic Church, (4) Its Catholic Doctrine and Training Program, (5) Its Catholic Demands, their rationale and consequences. The last two sections do not overlap per se. Using the terminology of the sociologists of religion, "Doctrine" refers to its "qualitative aspects", and "Demands" refers to its "quantitative aspects" and its rationale.
I will do some more edits based on what I have just written. Perhaps the problem lies in the length of the treatment of these sections and not the sectioning per se as I wrote above. In fact, I've already done some work to make them more brief. But let's see what else can be done. And yes, thanks to Mozzerati for pushing more improvement. :-) Marax 09:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article is unbalanced and especially the extensive quotes of Massimo Introvigne. The vast majority of the people involved with of Opus Dei were, like myself, only shallowly involved. And of course, these persons, incl. myself have little reasons to complain. I do recognize though from my experience some of the points of criticisms made by the critical former members, who were deeply involved and of course I can understand that they are disappointed and angry about that (though one has to be quite naive and blind not to see these traits of Opus Dei before joining). Self admitted sockpuppet 18:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I have removed this page from Category:Roman Catholic Church as it is listed in a number of subsidiary pages. I will come back to these subsidiary pages later, but for now I've simply removed it from the RCC cat. -- JASpencer 13:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the introduction is an abstract of the article. And so I submit that Allen's book and what he has shown should appear there. This article cites his well-researched work all throughout:
And so an abstract of the article should mention his research, the latest and one of most thorough yet in history.
Thus I am bringing back the former statement in the Intro before the recent changes:
Nobody so far has questioned the angle of neutrality and factuality of this statement, but I now submit that this statement is not just a good summary of the article, it is also factual and neutral.
1) It is factual that (a) Allen is known for his objectivity. This reading of Allen is all over the internet. One commentator even said his objectivity is "maddening." See his Wikipedia bio as well: John L. Allen, Jr.; (b) that he has gathered abundant facts (this is also bourne out not just by the article itself, by the many reviews on the article) (c) that these facts run counter to the allegations (ibid).
2) It is neutral. The statement does not even say negate or disprove, words which I believe can perfectly be used here. Be that as it may, the present rendering just says that the facts he gathered cut in the opposite direction of these allegations. This way of stating things is perfectly in accord with the Wikipedia:NPOV policy on majority views and non-equal validity.
Hope this is clear enough. Thomas S. Major 09:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi DNP, More ideas. How about:
I have the following reasons: (a) Allen still needs to be given special credit, and his credentials presented, (b) I think the anonymous editor who placed the title of his work, intended that to take the place of the word controversial which was a big bone of contention some time ago, on whether or not the word should appear in the Intro. So I placed the word back in its old place before the title was placed. Thomas S. Major 04:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The FAC discussion page for Opus Dei, from September 2005, just showed up on my watchlist, and I realized that people have been using it as a kind of workshop, adding comments and new sections to it, right up to today. That's a mistake; the page is an archive, and needs to be kept as it was when Raul removed the nomination from WP:FAC. Readers are supposed to be able to click on the link to it in the "This article is a former featured article candidate" template at the top of this page and find the FAC discussion, just the way it went, "to see why the nomination failed", as the template says. They're not supposed to find a confusing mixture of old and new. Moreover, if the article should be re-submitted to FAC at some point, the archive of the previous discussion is even more essential for the FAC reviewers to have, to see what happened last time. Among other things, people seem to have been pasting comments from this talkpage into it. That's a backwards way of doing it: if you wish to have a discussion based on the FAC archive, you should add comments from it to this talkpage. Or, if you'd like to have a separate discussion page based on the FAC nomination, create a subpage of the form Talk:Opus Dei/FAC nomination September 2005 with additions, or whatever, and link to it from here. I've reverted the archive to how it was on September 30. Of course the text with the later comments can easily be retrieved from the history, if you'd like to use it in any of the way's I've suggested. Bishonen | talk 07:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Andries, I am trying to synthesize the different versions proposed so far:
My latest proposal: While the topic of the validity of testimonies of former members of religious organizations is controversial, some prominent sociologists like Reader Emeritus of Sociology of the University of Oxford, Bryan R. Wilson, generally advocate skepticism towards the testimonies of critical former members. Wilson, for example, goes so far as to say that some of these adult members who are "prone to bias" sometimes "learn to rehearse an atrocity story." See Controversy about the validity of the testimonies of critical members of religious movements
My proposal tries to put together proposals. I think that Thomas' attempt to provide a quote is ok given the NPOV policy:
Although I do agree that the quote has to be nuanced as you said in [4]: that Wilson although prominent and a very "reputable source" is quite extreme. Thus, my rendering: "he goes so far as to say." Lafem 05:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I just placed a colon after the word love in the feature of Escriva's spiritual teaching called love for freedom. In classic theology, love which a union of lover and beloved is shown above all through obedience, a union of wills, for the will is the greatest faculty of the person.
I've also corrected recently another thing connected to this and as summary of the edit I placed this: it is the Divine Person's use of human freedom as new Adam, with a human love of infinite value, that made up for 1st Adam's sin vs the Infinite God.
It's an important point which I want to record here. Saint Paul preached that the one mediator is the man Jesus Christ. It shows the importnace of human nature, humam struggle, human excellence. That is why Escriva called the human virtues, produced by free human acts, as the "foundation" of the supernatural virtues, the virtues which save and sanctify us and unite us to God. Marax 09:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to get feedback on the photo of Introvigne's work and the quote that I just posted.
Thanks, Lafem, for backing up my quotes of Bryan Wilson with Wikipedia policies on neutrality. Yes, indeed, Wikipedia rules are out to ensure we have a reliable encyclopedia by citing the most reputable source. I've done more research on Introvigne and yes he ranks high as a scholar. He has published hundreds of article in scientific journals. See his numerous works in His updated Bibliography.
I would have wanted to put a photo of Introvigne, but am still scouting for a good one. But I found this nice photo of his Encyclopedia of Religions. It might be better to place this than a photo of his face. This clearly shows his "reputableness" and "credibility" as an expert. Anyway, as I said, some feedback would be good. Thomas S. Major 05:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I think it's fine - the only change I would suggest:
to
as it is not immediately obvious (although one does figure it out.....one would hope, anyways) why the picture of the book cover is there. Out of curiosity, is that quote out of the Encyclopedia? DonaNobisPacem 07:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The statement combines several quotes: "prime target" appears in his interview with Messori on Opus Dei. "stigmatize" comes from his article which he translated into English as Labelling...(see one of the footnotes) "return to religion" is from his article on Opus Dei and the Anti-cult movement.
It does not come from the Encyclopedia itself. The articles and interview do not have covers and so no image... Thanks a lot for the immediate feedback! BTW, ok to your suggestion! Thomas S. Major 07:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
This article keeps using the term "Ultraconservative" repeatedly. I don't think this is an apt description. Conservative, by definition, implies the preservation of the status quo, therefore, it's impossible to be an extreme conservative. I think the appropriate term to express what the authors wish to express would be reactionary, and I'm not sure that really fits. -- 71.141.136.236 09:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)