![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Whoever did the bit about the optative mood in Finnish should give clear examples, from older Finnish sources, such as the Kalevala and Suomen Kansan Vanhat Runot. I'd like to see a genuine ancient Finnish spell-song or an equivalent... such as legends/spells/folklore to ward away a bear, or a lynx, or a wolf. A simple prayer?
Basically, I'd just love to see a good example of that. An ancient Finn praying for the spirits of the animals (or the spirit of her sauna--that might be simpler) would say... what? I'm Finnish, but not an ethnologist, sadly. You could pick some sort of example and do that, yeah? Just a simple prayer.
Love,
Snowgrouse (
talk) 17:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
AKA: not appearing on this page.
Why are the snippets about English and Romanian at the top, and a list of other languages below with their own sections? 155.135.55.233 ( talk) 20:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
This form of the verb 'to be' is probably called 'subjunctive' in English because the term 'optative' has never,as far as I know, been used in describing English. In 'Would that I were rich' the first part meets the requirements of an optative, but is morphologically indistinguishable from the 'subjunctive'. The 'subjunctive/conditional' form is, in my experience, replaced by the 'indicative' form in English, but a reference substantiating this would be useful, or some qualifying phrase such as 'as far as I know'. What about 'God save the Queen' ? Pamour ( talk) 17:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The article says "Likewise in Latin, the newer subjunctive is based on the Indo-European optative. With this change in Latin, several old subjunctive forms became future forms."
I'm no expert, but surely it's the other way round? The basic difference in I-E is that the subjunctive simply lengthens the theme vowel, while the optative adds a -y- to it. On that basis, the first conjugation subjunctive, "amem, ames, amet", and the forms for esse, "sim, sis, sit", are indeed optative; but in the other conjugations the future (regam, reges, reget; audiam, audies, audiet) sounds optative while the subjunctive (moneam, moneas, moneat; regam, regas, regat; audiam, audias, audiat) sounds like a true subjunctive. Can anyone cast any light on this? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I'd like this article to answer the following questions: 1. What's the difference between an optative and a subjunctive; they're closely related, fine, but what's the difference. 2. How do (Indo-European) optatives decline? Do they decline for person and number? What about gender? Do they allow for voice (active/passive)? Do they occur in multiple tenses? Thanks, -- TimNelson ( talk) 23:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Neither a citation nor an example is given for this. An example would need a citation to its source. Please provide it either here or in the article on Biblical Hebrew, which never mentions optative. 108.18.136.147 ( talk) 23:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Whoever did the bit about the optative mood in Finnish should give clear examples, from older Finnish sources, such as the Kalevala and Suomen Kansan Vanhat Runot. I'd like to see a genuine ancient Finnish spell-song or an equivalent... such as legends/spells/folklore to ward away a bear, or a lynx, or a wolf. A simple prayer?
Basically, I'd just love to see a good example of that. An ancient Finn praying for the spirits of the animals (or the spirit of her sauna--that might be simpler) would say... what? I'm Finnish, but not an ethnologist, sadly. You could pick some sort of example and do that, yeah? Just a simple prayer.
Love,
Snowgrouse (
talk) 17:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
AKA: not appearing on this page.
Why are the snippets about English and Romanian at the top, and a list of other languages below with their own sections? 155.135.55.233 ( talk) 20:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
This form of the verb 'to be' is probably called 'subjunctive' in English because the term 'optative' has never,as far as I know, been used in describing English. In 'Would that I were rich' the first part meets the requirements of an optative, but is morphologically indistinguishable from the 'subjunctive'. The 'subjunctive/conditional' form is, in my experience, replaced by the 'indicative' form in English, but a reference substantiating this would be useful, or some qualifying phrase such as 'as far as I know'. What about 'God save the Queen' ? Pamour ( talk) 17:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The article says "Likewise in Latin, the newer subjunctive is based on the Indo-European optative. With this change in Latin, several old subjunctive forms became future forms."
I'm no expert, but surely it's the other way round? The basic difference in I-E is that the subjunctive simply lengthens the theme vowel, while the optative adds a -y- to it. On that basis, the first conjugation subjunctive, "amem, ames, amet", and the forms for esse, "sim, sis, sit", are indeed optative; but in the other conjugations the future (regam, reges, reget; audiam, audies, audiet) sounds optative while the subjunctive (moneam, moneas, moneat; regam, regas, regat; audiam, audias, audiat) sounds like a true subjunctive. Can anyone cast any light on this? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) ( talk) 16:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I'd like this article to answer the following questions: 1. What's the difference between an optative and a subjunctive; they're closely related, fine, but what's the difference. 2. How do (Indo-European) optatives decline? Do they decline for person and number? What about gender? Do they allow for voice (active/passive)? Do they occur in multiple tenses? Thanks, -- TimNelson ( talk) 23:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Neither a citation nor an example is given for this. An example would need a citation to its source. Please provide it either here or in the article on Biblical Hebrew, which never mentions optative. 108.18.136.147 ( talk) 23:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)