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I do not mean to be rude, but do any of the editors of this article honestly believe that all the information contained here is based on undisputed facts supported by the majority of the scientific community? You state opinions with quotations "I.E. This person claims..." I'm trying to be polite, but claims and quotations are not facts. Here is a fact "The consensus of the majority of the scientific community has not found any archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon." That is true. This, however, is opinion " It is a fact so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business … and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world." Do you consider that to be a neutral statement? What about "monsters in human shape?" For you to say that is not biased is almost, forgive my wording, pathetic. That quotation is opinion. But of course your response would be "We have proof that this person said that." Do you honestly believe that because someone said something, and you can quote it, that that is a basis for stating a criticism as fact, or even suggesting that it could possibly be a fact? Here is something that you obviously don't understand about quotations or even published documents from that time period. They are opinion. There are often statements, documents, records, and other material which conflict with each other and cannot be scientifically proven as correct or incorrect. Unless it is the consensus of the majority of the scientific community, which by the way, many of your sources aren't, don't state it. What you have done is simply chosen opinions that supports yours. But I'm not going to try to convince you with my "opinion". Here are some guidelines from wikipedia.
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. (See below.) Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties.
Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things, so we assert as many of them as possible.
By value or opinion,[2] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That The Beatles were the greatest band in history is an opinion. That the United States is the only country in the world that has used a nuclear weapon during wartime is a fact. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion. However, there are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included.
Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page.
This is my first participation with wikipedia, so forgive me if any of my conduct was against wikipedia policy. I know some of what I said would be considered a "personal attack" and apologize for that, but this article is much worse than any of my statements, and I personally doubt that Harvard, West Point, or any other reputable body of intellectuals would consider this article as well written, formal, educated, or reliable. This article needs to be entirely re-written according to the consensus of the majority of the scientific community, or be removed completely. Wikipedia is an excellent site. Most of the time, everything is well referenced and quite accurate. I have not edited anything nor plan on it unless the majority here agrees that the view I have stated is correct. If you respond to my comment with opposition, do it with intellect, as I have no intention of answering something that I have already addressed. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The talk page needs to be archived. Most of the discussions have been dead in the water for some time. The article itself is stagnant. No one is responding to my suggestions, aside from Stormrider and Shereth. The page is not getting edited. The title remains despite my comments, which have not been responded to. The quotes are not neutral, although wikipedia states that non-neutral quotes should be removed, which Shereth kindly pointed out to me in another discussion. The page lacks cohesion. It should say Critics, not critics including (three names which are repeated in every single sentence over and over again.) The sub-articles need to be merged with this article. The criticism articles merged have far more information than the parent article (see anything wrong with that?) There needs to be sections for specific types of criticism instead of making a new section for every single thing. Isn't there anyone with decent writing proficiency who can at least make the article appear aesthetically pleasing from an encyclopedic perspective? I find it interesting that comments on the talk page go unnoticed, but I'm sure if I were to actually edit the article, there would immediately be participation in it. It seems to be a dead, dragged out discussion, but as Stormrider said, IF you stand on policy. There is policy and guidelines to support a title change, which I discussed previously. There is policy to get the "monster in human shape" quotes removed. There is policy which is blatantly getting overlooked in this article, and I'm anxious to discuss it. Please participate in the discussion, instead of waiting for me to edit the article and then reverting my edits which you did not discuss. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Stormrider for responding and also for archiving the page. Your advice is appreciated also. I propose to change the title of this article. Why? "NPOV: Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." So, Wikipedia policy implies that even the word criticism is not neutral, especially considering that is the one word chosen for the example. Here is some more info from a current essay (not policy or guideline) titled criticism, which is linked to the official POV Fork section. If you want to find it, its at the bottom of the page under the "see also" section. Titling evaluations "Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study, and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." So I have significant backing that the article name needs to be changed. Shereth mentioned and I have also read many times that because other religions or denominations have "criticism of" sections, there would be debates that it is how this page should be formatted. "NOT: Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys sometimes impede rather than assist discussion. They should be used with caution, and are no more binding than any other consensus decision. Elections and votes are only endorsed for things that take place outside Wikipedia proper, such as when electing the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee." In other words, although I respect the editors of those articles and their decision for the name they chose, I have significant backing, including WP Policy, to re-enforce my proposal. As Stormrider said, I will give it a week and then proceed. Any suggestions for neutral, short and precise names for this article would be appreciated. I would like to get a consensus on the name. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 18:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I specifically said previously that most religions and denominations have a "criticism of" section, and I already addressed that issue earlier. That is why I dedicated the entire section above for it. Secondly, I have absolutely no problem with using "controversy regarding." Actually, I would prefer it. If you would consider re-naming the article in a like manner, I would not hesitate to support you. "Controversy regarding the Latter Day Saint Movement" suggests and promotes a neutral article, and at least gives the appearance that it is a debate, instead of a one sided view, as criticism would suggest. That is what I think the article should be called (along with WP Policy.) After we have a few more opinions, we'll change it. Also, I have no interest in changing them all. I gave completely supported and logical reasons as to why the title should be changed. If others can disprove that logic, I will refrain from the edit, but the idea of doing it simply because everyone else is? No. Not good enough. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Noleander, the examples you say I gave above - that was not me, that was a cut and paste directly from Wikipedia Policy pages. I can edit this page in any way to make it better conform to policy. I have to abide by Wikipedia policy and guidelines, not what specific editors ask of me. Also, I had no intention of changing the title without consensus. Every change I have suggested is directly supported by the WP Policy I pasted above. I have to prove that this article is different from the others? No, actually you have to prove why this article conforms to Wikipedia standards. And I guarantee you, Norleander, that if you take this argument further to the point of a review, I will get further support to change it. Maybe not everything I want to change, but it will be edited thoroughly and fairly. I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, but Stormrider and Shereth, who are both well known editors, have both stated that this article is not neutral. By the way, you say that we need to promote consistency; I agree entirely. Consistency with policy. I have based my entire argument on clear, understandable policy, yet you keep replying with opinions. Why? Do you not realize that my original post consisted of direct WP Policy? From everything that you say, especially considering you said they were "my" examples, I would gather that you took it as my opinion. No. The only way you could possibly have this page set up the way you want, is to tell me why the policies I posted don't apply to this article. If you can prove me wrong, thats fine. Feel free. I will dismiss my argument immediately. There is one thing I want to make clear though; I want to know why the policies I listed don't apply to this article. Thats it. Don't tell me anything else, because until you dismiss my argument, you should not start your own. This is not a "I want this and you want that" debate. This article openly defies policy. It openly defies Wikipedia standards. Any argument you make is superseded by Wikipedia policies. This is WP Policy "Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." That is WP Policy. Not me. Why does this not apply to this article? I pasted it before but you didn't seem to consider it valid. What about this "Titling evaluations Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study, and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." Don't you understand that is not my opinion? It is a direct cut and paste from Wikipedia. The first is policy, which is mandatory, the second is only an essay, which is a suggestion. I have read through many of the articles involving NPOV, Verifiability and no original research. I do not know whether others will support a title change, but I do know that policy supports a title change, and thats what matters. Please do not post a reply unless it is telling me how I am mis-understanding policy or how the policy does not apply. I will not let this discussion turn into a filibuster. If you do not directly address my debate and concern in the next reply, I will find someone else who can. So why do the policies not apply? That is all I want to know. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 23:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
You ignored my question again. I will give you a chance to answer the question again. Its at the bottom of my last comment. And by the way, I never said it had to be the word controversy. Its about getting the title changed to something neutral, not a specific word. And, yes, I am going to get other opinions on this. Perhaps I am wrong, but the policies I'm reviewing seem quite clear. You know, for everything you have posted, none of it has addressed the WP Policies I have pasted. Why? I am not going to respond to you or continue this discussion until others are involved. Until then. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 00:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks again Stormrider. I have invited COGDEN to join the discussion, as you suggested, along with Shereth. I am also going to request participation from the work groups involved with this article. Your suggestion to use proposed moves is also an excellent idea, but what should the proposed name for the article be? I will continue to search for other opinions on the matter. Thanks for your time. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 13:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Requests have been sent to:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints work group, COGDEN, and Shereth. I'm still thinking on what the proposed name should be. I'm considering "Controversy regarding the Latter Day Saint movement". But to be honest, I'm not entirely satisfied with the name. Perhaps "Controversy regarding the LDS movement" would be more appropriate? Its much shorter, accurate and to the point. I will submit the request after a possible title has been decided on. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 14:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
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help)Good point. Though I do believe that there are quite a few articles which have significant criticism without having a criticism section. Examples? "MySpace (redirect from Criticism of Myspace),Democracy (redirect from Criticism of democracy),C (programming language) (redirect from Criticism of C),McDonald's (redirect from Criticism of McDonald's),C++ (redirect from Criticism of C++),Recycling (redirect from Criticism of recycling),Mozilla Firefox (redirect from Criticisms of Firefox),Veganism (redirect from Criticisms of veganism),Ubuntu (operating system) (redirect from Criticism of ubuntu),Talmud (redirect from Criticism of the Talmud),Parapsychology (redirect from Criticism of parapsychology),Upanishads (redirect from Criticism of Upanishads),Ryanair (redirect from Criticism of Ryanair),Opera (web browser) (redirect from Criticisms of Opera),Bullfighting (redirect from Criticisms of bullfighting),Music journalism (redirect from Criticism of music),RealPlayer (redirect from Criticism of RealPlayer),Anti-Zionism (redirect from Criticism of Zionism),Federal Reserve System (redirect from Criticism of the Fed)Transhumanism (redirect from Criticism of transhumanism)." Well, there is a few examples of pages that don't use criticism of sections. And some of them are extremely controversial. If this was a non-religious, regular and mainstream article this debate would be over already. The reason its not, is because religion is such a emotional topic for many. I do not think that "Criticism of the Latter Day Saint movement" has more books, quotes, history, controversy, or anything else (especially criticisms) you could possibly list than say, Criticism of Democracy? Actually, I know it doesn't. There is no comparison, yet the democracy page seems to do fine without a "Criticism of" sub - article. And I'm not even proposing to remove this article, I'm just proposing to rename it. Look at the policies. Look at the facts. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Let me put in my two cents on some of these issues:
COGDEN 09:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Do some of the quotations in this article fall into this category? WP:QUOTE "When not to use quotations: the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided." Lets list the quotes from the article. "It is not my fault; Hyrum Smith [Joseph's brother] came to our house, with the affidavits all written out, and forced us to sign them. Joseph and the Church must be saved, said he. We saw that resistance was useless, they would have ruined us; so we signed the papers." Next quote: "Alas, none but the seduced join the seducer [Dr. Bennett]; those only who have been arraigned before a just tribunal for the same unhallowed conduct can be found to give countenance to any of his black hearted lies, and they, too, detest him for his seduction, these are the ladies to whom he refers his hearers to substantiate his assertions. Mrs. White, Mrs. Pratt, Niemans, Miller, Brotherton, and others." Next (and this one is my favorite): "It is a fact so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business … and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world." Next:"J.C. Bennett has published lies concerning myself & family & the people with which I am connected....His book I have read with the greatest disgust. No candid honest man can or will believe it. He has disgraced himself in eyes of all civilized society who will despise his very name," and last:"[I] know that the principle statements in John C. Bennett's book on Mormonism are true." Lets see. What are some of the words used in those quotes? Black hearted lies, monsters in human shape, corrupt practices, spiritual wife business, desperate men, greatest disgust, insulting innocent females, resistance was useless, they would have ruined us, detest him for his seduction. I'm sure there are a few more in there. Does anyone want to debate the neutrality of these statements? Would you like to tell me how they do not fall into the "when not to use quotations" category? A backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral statement could not describe these quotes any better. I will remove them and re-word the sections after I have given some time for a response. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 20:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move at this time Skomorokh, barbarian 10:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Criticism of the Latter Day Saint movement → Controversies regarding the Latter Day Saint movement — I'm proposing to rename this article to promote neutrality and other Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The current talk page reflects editor opinion under the section labeled "Title". Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I favor the title change, and my argument is supported by policy. WP:NPOV "Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." Here is my other reference WP:CRIT "Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study., and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." The first copy and paste is Wikipedia policy. The second is an essay you can find on the bottom of the content forking page. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
References
StormRider: Did you edit my "Oppose" text above? I see a change at
If you have any concerns about my text, please write me on my Talk page, or simply post a comment here, indented underneath the text you have a concern with. Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 17:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Ouch. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 16:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I propose to split-off the "Criticism of JS" section into its own article, for a few reasons:
1) He, as a person, is a different topic than the LDS movement itself.
2) Such a new article would parallel existing "founder of religion" articles:
Any suggestions or comments on this proposal? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
[Unindent]I've prepared a draft text for the above - more detailed - text that summarizes the criticisms of JS, using WP:Summary Style format. For now, I'll stick it in its own article Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr.. If we have consensus that it should go into _this_ article, we can move it into here (although, as I look at it, it doesnt look like it would fit into this article). Feel free to review the text at Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr. and reply here (or there) with suggestions and comments. -- Noleander ( talk) 06:13, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
With the existence of the new article Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr., there is now nothing in this article that is not repeated in either that article or Criticism of Mormon sacred texts, Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormonism and Christianity. Given that this is now a mish-mash of information available (and usually in better detail) elsewhere, I propose that it be drastically reduced into a dab-style navigational page linking to those articles. Thoughts? Sher eth 19:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
COGDEN: I see you have a new outline in mind. It looks promising: Focusing on the various places that the Mormons resided before Utah. Would there still be a dedicated "Crit of JS" section? Could you outline the proposal here, first, before implementing? Or maybe put it in a sandbox page so we could look at it? -- Noleander ( talk) 17:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I mean this in the kindest way, but this seems to portray Mormonism as enduring some kind of Jihad in its struggle for power and acceptance. All the same it's still criticism.... I guess. Because of that, I do think that some of your proposed additions here would be redundantly displayed on the Mormons' main page under History. Here we need cold hard criticism. We need Prop 8, polygamy, etc... The kinds of topics of criticism that interest people. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 18:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
C'mon don't give me that for saying "hard criticism" as if you guys don't know exactly what I mean. Hey here's a thought, why isn't this article renamed to specify the period of criticism? For example, "Criticism of the ... prior to 1857." The other article can just as easily be renamed, too. Just a thought. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 19:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think using a specific year would be best. Also, what really is the evil of a mega-article? It would be great if it could be coherent enough to be a one-stop-shop where anyone could find their Mormon-critical needs. I, for one, naturally came to this article a while ago looking for Prop 8 information. Why in the world is there none? You know, I know, my Grandma's dog knows that Prop 8 is a huge part of their criticism, and it's not here?
Again, I think putting a specific year on what you consider to be early would be best. If a renaming isn't approved then a merge should be in order. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 20:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
GnarlyLikeWhoa, look at a few of your quotes. 1 "I do know that if I was a Mormom, I really wouldn't be too proud that Wikipedia needs two articles to describe all the criticism of my religion. Not that I care, but like I said, one-stop-shop should work." 2 "Changes like these for the purpose of censorship of critical infromation wouldn't be the first time on Wikipedia." 3 "I mean this in the kindest way, but this seems to portray Mormonism as enduring some kind of Jihad in its struggle for power and acceptance. All the same it's still criticism.... I guess. Because of that, I do think that some of your proposed additions here would be redundantly displayed on the Mormons' main page under History. Here we need cold hard criticism." 4 "If Mormons did what they did to us in California, they would simply "out-oppose" anyone who disagrees with their criticism. Criticism is what it is, it's solid, and to make this change would be to "call the crap sugar." I am tiring of your disrespect quickly. From an academic perspective, you are biased and so is your argument. Did I ever propose to add anything to the effect that Mormons are wonderful? No, because that would be biased. Your attitude that if you shout loud enough your proposals will be accepted wont work here in Wikipedia. The more disrespect you show, the more difficulty you will experience in getting anything changed. You have already gone too far, and are close to the point of being corrected. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 23:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually Sir (or Ma'am), there are many criticisms of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints which are entirely valid. I am not here to debunk them. Yes, I am a Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (which does not make my opinion automatically "biased" as you might say), and I have seen many negative aspects of that church. I have quite a long list of personal criticisms you will not find anywhere on this page. Do you want an additional negative aspect to throw in this article? I have seen, multiple times, members leave the church because they were treated like trash. Why? Social standing, education, physical attractiveness, money, a genetic defect, humility and in many situations, simply not kissing up to the right people. Is that conduct you would expect to see in any church? No, at least not in theory. I did "Read ALL of it" as you said. Do i debate whether or not Mormons practiced polygamy? No. Do I debate whether or not Mormons slaughtered innocent people in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? No. Do I debate whether or not there have been lives affected in negative ways because of Mormons in modern times? Absolutely not. Your assumption that I am simply "for the church" is not accurate. But you must realize that the criticisms that you have which are valid can be displayed, but not favored. Having a article set up according to the request of one view or another is not neutral. I am not asking to remove the criticism, I'm just requesting to remove the emotion attached to it I.E. "monsters in human shape" and to add any valid responses to it. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a forum. You should not be posting criticisms which have no evidence of being correct whatsoever. That is called "Rumors and opinions" WP:NPOV, and Wikipedia isn't the place for it. You will notice that there is no "Criticism of Barack Obama" article. There is no "Criticism of George Bush" article. Yet having a large number of criticism articles for anything related to the Latter Day Saint movement seems to be entirely fine. It is ridiculous, to say the least. I would also suggest that you read my posts entirely. I made valid arguments, and you never acknowledged them. You should format this page and treat it with the same respect given to the Democracy article, or the pages devoted to United States presidents. Even if you are convinced that Mormons are possessed by Satan's own living soul, it is not your place to determine who is respected and who isn't. Wikipedia policy, along with neutrality and the integrity to be unbiased should prevail. It appears though as if neutrality and logic is losing this debate to demands. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
ANYWAY. So guys, how's this? Now, this is a ROUGH draft. If it's too biased, tell me. If it's weasley, tell me. Open to discussion on this.
' GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 20:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
That is the last time I am going to take your insult. I would suggest, GnarlyLikeWhoa, that you go through all of my contributions and find where I stated that Mormons had nothing to do with proposition 8. You're quote " Sharpsr1990, I'll just nod my head if it will make you stop. So, yes, I agree , I concur, you're right, I'm wrong, Mormons had nothing to do with Prop 8 :)" You will not find a single contribution I made which stated Mormons had nothing to do with that proposition. By the way, trying to act like your mature by saying "I'm right" and then throwing in an insult in the end is immature. Perhaps it would work on a 5 year old. Maybe your used to using it on your children, if you have any? Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 01:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
No Sir. I would rather study than spend time debating with someone who is driven by emotion. The idea that I did not present facts is... lets just say, your opinion. I would rather spend time improving myself through study, than debating about why an article should receive the same respect as other mainstream articles. Here is a fact to consider, since you seem to think I did not state any. Democracy does not have a single "Criticism of" sub-article, although there is much more criticism of it than the Latter Day Saint movement. You never did come up with a rebuttal to that. Why? There is none. Also, I apologize for the obvious and apparent mis-treatment you have received for being gay. No one should be treated with such disrespect whether do to race, ethnicity, religion, beliefs or any other factors. And that is my exact point. Have you seen me post criticism of any race, religion or group? No. I have too much respect for others to do that to anyone. You would think that with your experiences of persecution(as far as homosexuality), you would understand better than most why criticism is destructive, yet you are absolutely adamant about pushing forward with it. If I have the respect to not tear down others based on beliefs, why could you not show the same? Do you see me criticizing Protestants? What about Roman Catholics? Or Gay supporters? Or Democrats? Or Republicans? No. I have no lack of facts to criticize any of these groups, so why dont I? It is Wikipedia right? People need the valuable information I have right? I have too much respect for others to do that, and I want to create understanding with others, not contention. I am however, finished participating in this discussion. You may delete my comments and cancel the requested move when you feel that it is relevant. I apologize for the negative comments I made. Good luck to you. (Note: as far as policy tedder, you are correct, but you should have brought it up when the discussion turned non-neutral do to attacks of a religion and myself on the talk page. I retaliated, which is not justified, but it would have been decent of you to defend me when I was attacked first instead of waiting for the discussion to turn negative.) Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 02:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Exposing the attacks on a certain group of people by a religion is not an attack on the religion. I can name a few criticisms of democracy, but I have no interest in writing about it. Maybe you would. Further, criticism of a people, religion or race doesn't necessarily mean someone doesn't respect them. This is an encyclopedia.... a place for information, a place for facts. If all people, religions, races, or ideas were perfect or did not participate in a campaign to overturn the In Re Marriage cases, there would be no criticism.
People edit in certain areas of Wikipedia because they have a passion on the subject, they have an understanding of it, or they were personally affected by it. Lawyers may edit in the law categories. Jews may edit in the Jewish-related topics. Anime-buffs may want to ensure that every detail from a specific Naruto episode is included. One of the same-sex married 18,000 couples may choose to edit about Prop 8.
So, to imply that posting here is personal is the most accurate thing I've heard all day. Someone with a degree in underwater basket-weaving has no business posting in the Brain Surgery article. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 16:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
References
I notice that the quality of this article has diminished recently. The intro of the article (by Cogden?) is very nice, but the body of the article does not flow, and does not reflect that intro. Some editors (Shereth?) seem bent on making this article as small as possible. I would encourage editors to put themselves in the shoes of readers of the encylopedia, and try to make this article more informative and more readable. Reading the discussions on the archives of teh Talk pages may help. -- Noleander ( talk) 16:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I cannot agree more with the OP: it's interesting how criticism about scientology or islam are plenty extensive. In all fairness, these are older religions, but criticism about the LDS is contained under a thousand words? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (Phobal 06:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC))
There is a deletion discussion going on at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Judaism_(2nd_nomination), and any input would be appreciated. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 02:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
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I do not mean to be rude, but do any of the editors of this article honestly believe that all the information contained here is based on undisputed facts supported by the majority of the scientific community? You state opinions with quotations "I.E. This person claims..." I'm trying to be polite, but claims and quotations are not facts. Here is a fact "The consensus of the majority of the scientific community has not found any archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon." That is true. This, however, is opinion " It is a fact so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business … and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world." Do you consider that to be a neutral statement? What about "monsters in human shape?" For you to say that is not biased is almost, forgive my wording, pathetic. That quotation is opinion. But of course your response would be "We have proof that this person said that." Do you honestly believe that because someone said something, and you can quote it, that that is a basis for stating a criticism as fact, or even suggesting that it could possibly be a fact? Here is something that you obviously don't understand about quotations or even published documents from that time period. They are opinion. There are often statements, documents, records, and other material which conflict with each other and cannot be scientifically proven as correct or incorrect. Unless it is the consensus of the majority of the scientific community, which by the way, many of your sources aren't, don't state it. What you have done is simply chosen opinions that supports yours. But I'm not going to try to convince you with my "opinion". Here are some guidelines from wikipedia.
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. (See below.) Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties.
Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things, so we assert as many of them as possible.
By value or opinion,[2] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That The Beatles were the greatest band in history is an opinion. That the United States is the only country in the world that has used a nuclear weapon during wartime is a fact. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion. However, there are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included.
Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page.
This is my first participation with wikipedia, so forgive me if any of my conduct was against wikipedia policy. I know some of what I said would be considered a "personal attack" and apologize for that, but this article is much worse than any of my statements, and I personally doubt that Harvard, West Point, or any other reputable body of intellectuals would consider this article as well written, formal, educated, or reliable. This article needs to be entirely re-written according to the consensus of the majority of the scientific community, or be removed completely. Wikipedia is an excellent site. Most of the time, everything is well referenced and quite accurate. I have not edited anything nor plan on it unless the majority here agrees that the view I have stated is correct. If you respond to my comment with opposition, do it with intellect, as I have no intention of answering something that I have already addressed. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The talk page needs to be archived. Most of the discussions have been dead in the water for some time. The article itself is stagnant. No one is responding to my suggestions, aside from Stormrider and Shereth. The page is not getting edited. The title remains despite my comments, which have not been responded to. The quotes are not neutral, although wikipedia states that non-neutral quotes should be removed, which Shereth kindly pointed out to me in another discussion. The page lacks cohesion. It should say Critics, not critics including (three names which are repeated in every single sentence over and over again.) The sub-articles need to be merged with this article. The criticism articles merged have far more information than the parent article (see anything wrong with that?) There needs to be sections for specific types of criticism instead of making a new section for every single thing. Isn't there anyone with decent writing proficiency who can at least make the article appear aesthetically pleasing from an encyclopedic perspective? I find it interesting that comments on the talk page go unnoticed, but I'm sure if I were to actually edit the article, there would immediately be participation in it. It seems to be a dead, dragged out discussion, but as Stormrider said, IF you stand on policy. There is policy and guidelines to support a title change, which I discussed previously. There is policy to get the "monster in human shape" quotes removed. There is policy which is blatantly getting overlooked in this article, and I'm anxious to discuss it. Please participate in the discussion, instead of waiting for me to edit the article and then reverting my edits which you did not discuss. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Stormrider for responding and also for archiving the page. Your advice is appreciated also. I propose to change the title of this article. Why? "NPOV: Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." So, Wikipedia policy implies that even the word criticism is not neutral, especially considering that is the one word chosen for the example. Here is some more info from a current essay (not policy or guideline) titled criticism, which is linked to the official POV Fork section. If you want to find it, its at the bottom of the page under the "see also" section. Titling evaluations "Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study, and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." So I have significant backing that the article name needs to be changed. Shereth mentioned and I have also read many times that because other religions or denominations have "criticism of" sections, there would be debates that it is how this page should be formatted. "NOT: Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary but not exclusive method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys sometimes impede rather than assist discussion. They should be used with caution, and are no more binding than any other consensus decision. Elections and votes are only endorsed for things that take place outside Wikipedia proper, such as when electing the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee." In other words, although I respect the editors of those articles and their decision for the name they chose, I have significant backing, including WP Policy, to re-enforce my proposal. As Stormrider said, I will give it a week and then proceed. Any suggestions for neutral, short and precise names for this article would be appreciated. I would like to get a consensus on the name. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 18:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I specifically said previously that most religions and denominations have a "criticism of" section, and I already addressed that issue earlier. That is why I dedicated the entire section above for it. Secondly, I have absolutely no problem with using "controversy regarding." Actually, I would prefer it. If you would consider re-naming the article in a like manner, I would not hesitate to support you. "Controversy regarding the Latter Day Saint Movement" suggests and promotes a neutral article, and at least gives the appearance that it is a debate, instead of a one sided view, as criticism would suggest. That is what I think the article should be called (along with WP Policy.) After we have a few more opinions, we'll change it. Also, I have no interest in changing them all. I gave completely supported and logical reasons as to why the title should be changed. If others can disprove that logic, I will refrain from the edit, but the idea of doing it simply because everyone else is? No. Not good enough. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Noleander, the examples you say I gave above - that was not me, that was a cut and paste directly from Wikipedia Policy pages. I can edit this page in any way to make it better conform to policy. I have to abide by Wikipedia policy and guidelines, not what specific editors ask of me. Also, I had no intention of changing the title without consensus. Every change I have suggested is directly supported by the WP Policy I pasted above. I have to prove that this article is different from the others? No, actually you have to prove why this article conforms to Wikipedia standards. And I guarantee you, Norleander, that if you take this argument further to the point of a review, I will get further support to change it. Maybe not everything I want to change, but it will be edited thoroughly and fairly. I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, but Stormrider and Shereth, who are both well known editors, have both stated that this article is not neutral. By the way, you say that we need to promote consistency; I agree entirely. Consistency with policy. I have based my entire argument on clear, understandable policy, yet you keep replying with opinions. Why? Do you not realize that my original post consisted of direct WP Policy? From everything that you say, especially considering you said they were "my" examples, I would gather that you took it as my opinion. No. The only way you could possibly have this page set up the way you want, is to tell me why the policies I posted don't apply to this article. If you can prove me wrong, thats fine. Feel free. I will dismiss my argument immediately. There is one thing I want to make clear though; I want to know why the policies I listed don't apply to this article. Thats it. Don't tell me anything else, because until you dismiss my argument, you should not start your own. This is not a "I want this and you want that" debate. This article openly defies policy. It openly defies Wikipedia standards. Any argument you make is superseded by Wikipedia policies. This is WP Policy "Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." That is WP Policy. Not me. Why does this not apply to this article? I pasted it before but you didn't seem to consider it valid. What about this "Titling evaluations Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study, and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." Don't you understand that is not my opinion? It is a direct cut and paste from Wikipedia. The first is policy, which is mandatory, the second is only an essay, which is a suggestion. I have read through many of the articles involving NPOV, Verifiability and no original research. I do not know whether others will support a title change, but I do know that policy supports a title change, and thats what matters. Please do not post a reply unless it is telling me how I am mis-understanding policy or how the policy does not apply. I will not let this discussion turn into a filibuster. If you do not directly address my debate and concern in the next reply, I will find someone else who can. So why do the policies not apply? That is all I want to know. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 23:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
You ignored my question again. I will give you a chance to answer the question again. Its at the bottom of my last comment. And by the way, I never said it had to be the word controversy. Its about getting the title changed to something neutral, not a specific word. And, yes, I am going to get other opinions on this. Perhaps I am wrong, but the policies I'm reviewing seem quite clear. You know, for everything you have posted, none of it has addressed the WP Policies I have pasted. Why? I am not going to respond to you or continue this discussion until others are involved. Until then. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 00:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks again Stormrider. I have invited COGDEN to join the discussion, as you suggested, along with Shereth. I am also going to request participation from the work groups involved with this article. Your suggestion to use proposed moves is also an excellent idea, but what should the proposed name for the article be? I will continue to search for other opinions on the matter. Thanks for your time. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 13:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Requests have been sent to:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints work group, COGDEN, and Shereth. I'm still thinking on what the proposed name should be. I'm considering "Controversy regarding the Latter Day Saint movement". But to be honest, I'm not entirely satisfied with the name. Perhaps "Controversy regarding the LDS movement" would be more appropriate? Its much shorter, accurate and to the point. I will submit the request after a possible title has been decided on. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 14:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
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help)Good point. Though I do believe that there are quite a few articles which have significant criticism without having a criticism section. Examples? "MySpace (redirect from Criticism of Myspace),Democracy (redirect from Criticism of democracy),C (programming language) (redirect from Criticism of C),McDonald's (redirect from Criticism of McDonald's),C++ (redirect from Criticism of C++),Recycling (redirect from Criticism of recycling),Mozilla Firefox (redirect from Criticisms of Firefox),Veganism (redirect from Criticisms of veganism),Ubuntu (operating system) (redirect from Criticism of ubuntu),Talmud (redirect from Criticism of the Talmud),Parapsychology (redirect from Criticism of parapsychology),Upanishads (redirect from Criticism of Upanishads),Ryanair (redirect from Criticism of Ryanair),Opera (web browser) (redirect from Criticisms of Opera),Bullfighting (redirect from Criticisms of bullfighting),Music journalism (redirect from Criticism of music),RealPlayer (redirect from Criticism of RealPlayer),Anti-Zionism (redirect from Criticism of Zionism),Federal Reserve System (redirect from Criticism of the Fed)Transhumanism (redirect from Criticism of transhumanism)." Well, there is a few examples of pages that don't use criticism of sections. And some of them are extremely controversial. If this was a non-religious, regular and mainstream article this debate would be over already. The reason its not, is because religion is such a emotional topic for many. I do not think that "Criticism of the Latter Day Saint movement" has more books, quotes, history, controversy, or anything else (especially criticisms) you could possibly list than say, Criticism of Democracy? Actually, I know it doesn't. There is no comparison, yet the democracy page seems to do fine without a "Criticism of" sub - article. And I'm not even proposing to remove this article, I'm just proposing to rename it. Look at the policies. Look at the facts. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Let me put in my two cents on some of these issues:
COGDEN 09:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Do some of the quotations in this article fall into this category? WP:QUOTE "When not to use quotations: the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided." Lets list the quotes from the article. "It is not my fault; Hyrum Smith [Joseph's brother] came to our house, with the affidavits all written out, and forced us to sign them. Joseph and the Church must be saved, said he. We saw that resistance was useless, they would have ruined us; so we signed the papers." Next quote: "Alas, none but the seduced join the seducer [Dr. Bennett]; those only who have been arraigned before a just tribunal for the same unhallowed conduct can be found to give countenance to any of his black hearted lies, and they, too, detest him for his seduction, these are the ladies to whom he refers his hearers to substantiate his assertions. Mrs. White, Mrs. Pratt, Niemans, Miller, Brotherton, and others." Next (and this one is my favorite): "It is a fact so well known that the Twelve and their adherents have endeavored to carry on this spiritual wife business … and have gone to the most shameful and desperate lengths to keep from the public. First, insulting innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world." Next:"J.C. Bennett has published lies concerning myself & family & the people with which I am connected....His book I have read with the greatest disgust. No candid honest man can or will believe it. He has disgraced himself in eyes of all civilized society who will despise his very name," and last:"[I] know that the principle statements in John C. Bennett's book on Mormonism are true." Lets see. What are some of the words used in those quotes? Black hearted lies, monsters in human shape, corrupt practices, spiritual wife business, desperate men, greatest disgust, insulting innocent females, resistance was useless, they would have ruined us, detest him for his seduction. I'm sure there are a few more in there. Does anyone want to debate the neutrality of these statements? Would you like to tell me how they do not fall into the "when not to use quotations" category? A backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral statement could not describe these quotes any better. I will remove them and re-word the sections after I have given some time for a response. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 20:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move at this time Skomorokh, barbarian 10:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Criticism of the Latter Day Saint movement → Controversies regarding the Latter Day Saint movement — I'm proposing to rename this article to promote neutrality and other Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The current talk page reflects editor opinion under the section labeled "Title". Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I favor the title change, and my argument is supported by policy. WP:NPOV "Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." Here is my other reference WP:CRIT "Thus "Criticism of..." should be avoided. Preferred titles include "Critique", the synonym "review" which may also imply a more comprehensive study., and "Reception". "Reception" sections should contain rebuttals immediately if available. As is the convention with summary-style articles, reception should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Before being spun off, "Reception of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, once spun off the original article should contain a summary of the "Reception of ... " article." The first copy and paste is Wikipedia policy. The second is an essay you can find on the bottom of the content forking page. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 21:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
References
StormRider: Did you edit my "Oppose" text above? I see a change at
If you have any concerns about my text, please write me on my Talk page, or simply post a comment here, indented underneath the text you have a concern with. Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 17:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Ouch. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 16:42, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I propose to split-off the "Criticism of JS" section into its own article, for a few reasons:
1) He, as a person, is a different topic than the LDS movement itself.
2) Such a new article would parallel existing "founder of religion" articles:
Any suggestions or comments on this proposal? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
[Unindent]I've prepared a draft text for the above - more detailed - text that summarizes the criticisms of JS, using WP:Summary Style format. For now, I'll stick it in its own article Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr.. If we have consensus that it should go into _this_ article, we can move it into here (although, as I look at it, it doesnt look like it would fit into this article). Feel free to review the text at Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr. and reply here (or there) with suggestions and comments. -- Noleander ( talk) 06:13, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
With the existence of the new article Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr., there is now nothing in this article that is not repeated in either that article or Criticism of Mormon sacred texts, Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormonism and Christianity. Given that this is now a mish-mash of information available (and usually in better detail) elsewhere, I propose that it be drastically reduced into a dab-style navigational page linking to those articles. Thoughts? Sher eth 19:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
COGDEN: I see you have a new outline in mind. It looks promising: Focusing on the various places that the Mormons resided before Utah. Would there still be a dedicated "Crit of JS" section? Could you outline the proposal here, first, before implementing? Or maybe put it in a sandbox page so we could look at it? -- Noleander ( talk) 17:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I mean this in the kindest way, but this seems to portray Mormonism as enduring some kind of Jihad in its struggle for power and acceptance. All the same it's still criticism.... I guess. Because of that, I do think that some of your proposed additions here would be redundantly displayed on the Mormons' main page under History. Here we need cold hard criticism. We need Prop 8, polygamy, etc... The kinds of topics of criticism that interest people. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 18:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
C'mon don't give me that for saying "hard criticism" as if you guys don't know exactly what I mean. Hey here's a thought, why isn't this article renamed to specify the period of criticism? For example, "Criticism of the ... prior to 1857." The other article can just as easily be renamed, too. Just a thought. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 19:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think using a specific year would be best. Also, what really is the evil of a mega-article? It would be great if it could be coherent enough to be a one-stop-shop where anyone could find their Mormon-critical needs. I, for one, naturally came to this article a while ago looking for Prop 8 information. Why in the world is there none? You know, I know, my Grandma's dog knows that Prop 8 is a huge part of their criticism, and it's not here?
Again, I think putting a specific year on what you consider to be early would be best. If a renaming isn't approved then a merge should be in order. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 20:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
GnarlyLikeWhoa, look at a few of your quotes. 1 "I do know that if I was a Mormom, I really wouldn't be too proud that Wikipedia needs two articles to describe all the criticism of my religion. Not that I care, but like I said, one-stop-shop should work." 2 "Changes like these for the purpose of censorship of critical infromation wouldn't be the first time on Wikipedia." 3 "I mean this in the kindest way, but this seems to portray Mormonism as enduring some kind of Jihad in its struggle for power and acceptance. All the same it's still criticism.... I guess. Because of that, I do think that some of your proposed additions here would be redundantly displayed on the Mormons' main page under History. Here we need cold hard criticism." 4 "If Mormons did what they did to us in California, they would simply "out-oppose" anyone who disagrees with their criticism. Criticism is what it is, it's solid, and to make this change would be to "call the crap sugar." I am tiring of your disrespect quickly. From an academic perspective, you are biased and so is your argument. Did I ever propose to add anything to the effect that Mormons are wonderful? No, because that would be biased. Your attitude that if you shout loud enough your proposals will be accepted wont work here in Wikipedia. The more disrespect you show, the more difficulty you will experience in getting anything changed. You have already gone too far, and are close to the point of being corrected. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 23:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually Sir (or Ma'am), there are many criticisms of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints which are entirely valid. I am not here to debunk them. Yes, I am a Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (which does not make my opinion automatically "biased" as you might say), and I have seen many negative aspects of that church. I have quite a long list of personal criticisms you will not find anywhere on this page. Do you want an additional negative aspect to throw in this article? I have seen, multiple times, members leave the church because they were treated like trash. Why? Social standing, education, physical attractiveness, money, a genetic defect, humility and in many situations, simply not kissing up to the right people. Is that conduct you would expect to see in any church? No, at least not in theory. I did "Read ALL of it" as you said. Do i debate whether or not Mormons practiced polygamy? No. Do I debate whether or not Mormons slaughtered innocent people in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? No. Do I debate whether or not there have been lives affected in negative ways because of Mormons in modern times? Absolutely not. Your assumption that I am simply "for the church" is not accurate. But you must realize that the criticisms that you have which are valid can be displayed, but not favored. Having a article set up according to the request of one view or another is not neutral. I am not asking to remove the criticism, I'm just requesting to remove the emotion attached to it I.E. "monsters in human shape" and to add any valid responses to it. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a forum. You should not be posting criticisms which have no evidence of being correct whatsoever. That is called "Rumors and opinions" WP:NPOV, and Wikipedia isn't the place for it. You will notice that there is no "Criticism of Barack Obama" article. There is no "Criticism of George Bush" article. Yet having a large number of criticism articles for anything related to the Latter Day Saint movement seems to be entirely fine. It is ridiculous, to say the least. I would also suggest that you read my posts entirely. I made valid arguments, and you never acknowledged them. You should format this page and treat it with the same respect given to the Democracy article, or the pages devoted to United States presidents. Even if you are convinced that Mormons are possessed by Satan's own living soul, it is not your place to determine who is respected and who isn't. Wikipedia policy, along with neutrality and the integrity to be unbiased should prevail. It appears though as if neutrality and logic is losing this debate to demands. Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 19:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
ANYWAY. So guys, how's this? Now, this is a ROUGH draft. If it's too biased, tell me. If it's weasley, tell me. Open to discussion on this.
' GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 20:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
That is the last time I am going to take your insult. I would suggest, GnarlyLikeWhoa, that you go through all of my contributions and find where I stated that Mormons had nothing to do with proposition 8. You're quote " Sharpsr1990, I'll just nod my head if it will make you stop. So, yes, I agree , I concur, you're right, I'm wrong, Mormons had nothing to do with Prop 8 :)" You will not find a single contribution I made which stated Mormons had nothing to do with that proposition. By the way, trying to act like your mature by saying "I'm right" and then throwing in an insult in the end is immature. Perhaps it would work on a 5 year old. Maybe your used to using it on your children, if you have any? Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 01:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
No Sir. I would rather study than spend time debating with someone who is driven by emotion. The idea that I did not present facts is... lets just say, your opinion. I would rather spend time improving myself through study, than debating about why an article should receive the same respect as other mainstream articles. Here is a fact to consider, since you seem to think I did not state any. Democracy does not have a single "Criticism of" sub-article, although there is much more criticism of it than the Latter Day Saint movement. You never did come up with a rebuttal to that. Why? There is none. Also, I apologize for the obvious and apparent mis-treatment you have received for being gay. No one should be treated with such disrespect whether do to race, ethnicity, religion, beliefs or any other factors. And that is my exact point. Have you seen me post criticism of any race, religion or group? No. I have too much respect for others to do that to anyone. You would think that with your experiences of persecution(as far as homosexuality), you would understand better than most why criticism is destructive, yet you are absolutely adamant about pushing forward with it. If I have the respect to not tear down others based on beliefs, why could you not show the same? Do you see me criticizing Protestants? What about Roman Catholics? Or Gay supporters? Or Democrats? Or Republicans? No. I have no lack of facts to criticize any of these groups, so why dont I? It is Wikipedia right? People need the valuable information I have right? I have too much respect for others to do that, and I want to create understanding with others, not contention. I am however, finished participating in this discussion. You may delete my comments and cancel the requested move when you feel that it is relevant. I apologize for the negative comments I made. Good luck to you. (Note: as far as policy tedder, you are correct, but you should have brought it up when the discussion turned non-neutral do to attacks of a religion and myself on the talk page. I retaliated, which is not justified, but it would have been decent of you to defend me when I was attacked first instead of waiting for the discussion to turn negative.) Sharpsr1990 ( talk) 02:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Exposing the attacks on a certain group of people by a religion is not an attack on the religion. I can name a few criticisms of democracy, but I have no interest in writing about it. Maybe you would. Further, criticism of a people, religion or race doesn't necessarily mean someone doesn't respect them. This is an encyclopedia.... a place for information, a place for facts. If all people, religions, races, or ideas were perfect or did not participate in a campaign to overturn the In Re Marriage cases, there would be no criticism.
People edit in certain areas of Wikipedia because they have a passion on the subject, they have an understanding of it, or they were personally affected by it. Lawyers may edit in the law categories. Jews may edit in the Jewish-related topics. Anime-buffs may want to ensure that every detail from a specific Naruto episode is included. One of the same-sex married 18,000 couples may choose to edit about Prop 8.
So, to imply that posting here is personal is the most accurate thing I've heard all day. Someone with a degree in underwater basket-weaving has no business posting in the Brain Surgery article. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 16:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
References
I notice that the quality of this article has diminished recently. The intro of the article (by Cogden?) is very nice, but the body of the article does not flow, and does not reflect that intro. Some editors (Shereth?) seem bent on making this article as small as possible. I would encourage editors to put themselves in the shoes of readers of the encylopedia, and try to make this article more informative and more readable. Reading the discussions on the archives of teh Talk pages may help. -- Noleander ( talk) 16:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I cannot agree more with the OP: it's interesting how criticism about scientology or islam are plenty extensive. In all fairness, these are older religions, but criticism about the LDS is contained under a thousand words? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (Phobal 06:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC))
There is a deletion discussion going on at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Judaism_(2nd_nomination), and any input would be appreciated. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 02:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)